Internal Development: Rasheer Fleming and Khaman Maluach with Gerald Bourguet

0:00The timeline is a blue wire podcast. Welcome to the timeline of Phoenix Sun's podcast. My name is Mike, back with Sam. How are you doing, Sam? Hey, man, I'm doing well. Week one of internal development with one of our very long time friends was a success. And now we are on to week two and had to bring in another one of our very long time friends of the pod today, even though he is battling a little bit of illness as are you, Mike. Yeah, that's right. I'm sorry.

1:00I should say it upfront. I'm sorry if I sound sick. I am. So that's why. But yes, joining us is our friend, a writer, a reporter, a podcaster at Sun's After Dark. Been a long time, Gerald. Gerald Borgay, how you doing? I'm doing great. I'm also battling a little bit of sickness. So we're just going to make this pot our flu game, Mike. That's right. We need Sam to carry us a little bit. Sam, I'm going to pull the advanced stats from this podcast afterwards and check how often you had the ball to see how you did carrying us. Usually not very good in that role. Didn't I host an episode like once, six years ago or something? I had to have a vague recollection of we let me play Luca Ball once and it didn't go super well. I'm not sure I've ever been in that role. I'm sure it's fine. I'm sure it was fine. Gerald, Sun's After Dark. How's that going? What's it like in your own little pirate ship there? Yeah, no, it's going well. I have been lucky during my time covering this team over the years to have gained a lot of followers and people that support my work.

2:04So it means a lot to me, everybody that's been over there and supporting me reading my stuff, listening to the pod. I've also been fortunate to make some connections in this industry over the years and been able to have some great guests on. I've had both of you guys on as well. So even during the off season, it is still hard to do one pod a week. I'm sure you guys go through that as well. But it's been nice to be kind of carried by the quality of guests that I have and by the wonderful people that have been supporting me for the last year since I've been on my own doing my own venture. So it's been a lot of fun. I've been enjoying it and I'm also doing some freelance work for Sports 360 AZ and they've been great to me on top of that. So it's nice to be in the space even if it's not quite the same as when I used to have boots on the ground and that type of thing. I'll definitely echo Gerald just that. You get to this part of the off season and it gets quiet and sometimes tough to find things to talk about every week. But this off season, we all cover the team for a reason.

3:06There's always stuff. I thought Summer League was so fun this summer. Obviously didn't agree with every transaction that the sun's made this summer. But at least they did some stuff. Mike and I were joking the other week about how there were whole teams in the NBA this summer that didn't do a single thing. I think the New Orleans Pelicans made their first signing of the summer like the day after we dropped that episode. Who did the Pelicans sign someone? The Mathron. The sun's been out there making moves doing things tangibly. Is there any element of the team in terms of either outside acquisitions that they've made or or as we talk about internal development, the youth that you're most looking forward to this season? I'm glad that you guys are having me on for the internal development because that's been what I've been looking forward to the most for this upcoming season.

4:07And then they kind of made a move that train wrecked a lot of that for me. But I have been looking forward to seeing what reshare Fleming and C'mon Mawwatch can do, especially because I reported this over at Suns After Dark a few months back. Like before the suns made that move they were very much looking forward to what those two second year guys were going to bring. And they were kind of carving out, you know, at least 15 to 20 minutes for these guys a more consistent, ventral for these guys. There was some optimism within the front office that Mawwatch could surpass Mark Williams as a starter by the end of the season, not opening night. But you know, we saw the way that he looked at Summer League and this was before he went out and balled at Summer League. Like they're pretty high on his development. And then we saw what reshare Fleming did from like mid February onward when he was part of the rotation. So I have really been looking forward to seeing a Suns team do what other good teams do, which is they have their established players. But they work in rookies, second year players, younger guys, longer guys, athletic guys.

5:10Because we know that that KD Beal iteration of the team was just at a disadvantage from an athletics standpoint, from a speed standpoint, from a size standpoint on a nightly basis. And it was kind of tough to watch. So I was looking forward to those youngsters getting more runtime. Because we remember that when rookies, when Ryan Dunn and Osso were rookies, every time they touched the floor, it was like a breath of fresh air in terms of the jumping and just the speed and the energy they played with the effort. A general give a damn. Like I was kind of looking forward to that. And now I'm a little, my spirit has been dampened a little bit by the guy that they brought into steal all of her share Fleming's minutes. Yeah, and we'll see if you can win some of them back. I think it could be an interesting thing to talk about. But let's just go ahead and get into it. Let's talk about internal development. Now the story about an NBA team that lost everything and the one thing that had no choice but to make them all better.

6:12It's internal develop. Two guys to cover on this podcast. We're covering as we call them the sophomores. We're sheer Fleming and come on, Mollowatch. I think we should. Let's just start with Rochir. How do you feel about that, Gerald? Yeah, absolutely. Love share. Okay. That's pretty hard for a Kobe brass segment in here. But got me don't buy Mike for the record. Yeah. What does he need to improve that segment just says basketball? Everything. Yeah, I mean, he is a sophomore to be fair. He's a sophomore, but he's not on a full-time roster spot. And I'll just say this about Kobe Bray and then we can eventually move on. You know, long way to go, I think with him on his two-way contract to be able to play any minutes this year. A lot would have to happen. Yeah, there's a lot of guys in front of him now too. Especially since they brought in Pat Spencer, they brought in like the oldest, most experienced two-way guy that could bring in.

7:12It's kind of crazy. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. So for those who don't remember, if you've never listened, the idea of this podcast, we're going to talk about who these players are. Break them down in a statistical sense, but also just an eye test sense as well. We're going to talk about what they can improve at and how confident we are that they can make those improvements. So let's talk about who Ryshear Fleming is just a real quick thing. Ryshear Fleming last year played 673 total minutes. He took 215 total field goal attempts and just for comparison's sake, Royce took 625 total field goal attempts. So about three times as much for comparison's sake and shot about 34, well shot exactly 34.6%. From three, when I say Ryshear Fleming, Gerald, what do you think of first? Who is Ryshear Fleming? I don't want to be like reductive, but I think 3 and D with the potential to be kind of a small ball big man occasionally. I know that his overall 3.0 percentage wasn't great, but if you look at from mid-February onward when he got consistent minutes and was part of the rotation, a set part of the rotation,

8:22I think he shot just under 41% from 3. And I know that it was mid-February to April, so it's not a huge sample size, but it was pretty similar to everything that he sample size wise that he had done up to that point in the season. Because his minutes had been sporadic, his opportunities had been sporadic. It's different when you are getting a consistent 1-2-3s a game on a nightly basis versus go in there for five minutes and garbage time maybe get a look, go in there two weeks later, get another look. It's harder to string together to success that way. So I feel like what we saw in the second half of the season was more indicative of what he could be as a 3-point shooter. And then defensively, we know that he's got that absurd, like what, 7-foot-5 wingspan. We know that he's a bigger guy and hasn't even put on like NBA muscle yet. So that length that athleticism, that size, the defensive instincts, I think are things that are going to continue to get better. He kind of looked in year one what I had hoped to see from Ryan Dunn in year one as far as this guy that can be kind of a lockdown on ball defender that can make plays off the ball chase down blocks that type of thing.

9:30I think Dunn has been kind of miscast as like an on ball guy when he was more of a free safety in college, but I think reshare Fleming can be a little bit of both. So I see a two-way player. I see a glue guy. I see a role player who's not going to jump off the stat sheet kind of like we saw it summer league, but someone who I was honestly excited to see potentially win the starting job and be in that lineup instead of a guy that I don't feel fits as well in terms of miles bridges. What do you think, Sam? Well, Gerald didn't want to be reductive when he said 3 and D. My middle name is reductive like I've been you know with all of these guys just I said about oh so last week Gerald my line was that oh so is the worst player in NBA who makes his teammates better. That was my reductive analysis of him. Rishi or Fleming who is he I would say he's J Crowder with three inch inserts. Yes, it's about what we're going for because Gerald is right. He's like physically such an impressive guy. He's six foot nine seven five wingspan and of course it's it's not actually a perfect one to one comparison. He is a better athlete than J Crowder ever was.

10:39And I think has some more finishing potential than a guy like J Crowder did. However in terms of the things that he was good at as a rookie and actually like playable at as a rookie. Yeah, it was like basic role player stuff. It was 3 and D. I think he shot 38% overall in the entire season from the corner struggled much more with his above the break three. His defensive net rating differential was just like off the charts. I think cleaning the glass had him in the 97th percentile I saw in terms of his net rating differential he was just a guy who made solid, he plays for the ball and made a difference when he was out there now that being said. Like obviously there's a lot of questions to be had about the ceiling. There's a lot of questions as we talk about like what he can improve at we're not there yet but like also. I did feel at times the way that people were talking about Rishi or it's actually interesting that Gerald made that that comparison between Rishi or your one and Ryan done in your one.

11:41Because part of the reason I do think I'm a little bit lower on him than some other people in the fan base or like a little bit more wary of the hype that I hear around Rishi or Fleming right now. Maybe because I have some of that Ryan done post year one into year two. I wouldn't call it trauma I don't think really we discussed it last week with Kellan like I don't think Ryan was that bad last year anything but you know. You learned a lesson I learned a lesson I here's what I'll say I personally agree with Gerald and that I don't think Miles Bridges was the guy to trade for either especially not for the the unprotected pick that they did but at the same time. I would have been nervous about just like handing over 25 minute per game guaranteed role to Rishi or Fleming as a sophomore just given the fact like I think he has all sorts of positive attributes so we can talk about but just in terms of volume you have to average like four points per game and you know I think he had five games in total I look this up where he finished double figures in scoring as a rookie.

12:45So you know I like the ability to ease him into the rotation a little bit more I think it's going to be challenging for him to find minutes in the first place now so maybe they went too far in the other direction but but yeah I I don't mind in general the idea that he wasn't ready for prime time just yet. I think the thing that I think of when it comes to him right now like the word that I think of is theoretical. Because theoretically he's great but like none of it was really great yet except for maybe offensive rebounding that maybe his best skill is a great offensive yeah he's a great offensive rebounder that's another thing he can do that like J Crowder couldn't or whatever right the body yeah. We're like a really good read offensive rebounder but the thing is and it's this is sort of similar to Osuigidaro where there's nothing you can really point at statistically for ratio Fleming to say this is a great thing that he does outside of offensive rebounding but when he's on the floor the sun's played better and they played better throughout the year when he was on the floor and look it's it's a very small sample size one of the smallest on the suns you know for guys who actually we expect to get minutes in this coming year outside of the guy who we're going to talk about next.

13:59But 673 minutes total like I said but they had a 6.1 net rating plus 6.1 when he was on the floor which is essentially the best on the suns for anyone that played more than 15 games which you know that's not nothing it's not really something you can sort of plant a flag on and say he's definitely going to be great but it's there defensively I think that is like sort of mostly theoretical like I'm saying but like he has all of the physical tools and there were some. And there were some games where his defense really stood out and the suns as a team their defense was a lot better when he was on the floor the shooting 34% from three is not exactly great but he had a willingness to shoot that kept him on the floor quite a bit in a way that Ryan done did not if he caught it in the corner and he was relatively open he was letting it fly and that was an important thing offensively though. There's not really much else that he's done so far in his rookie year like he can't really create for himself I haven't seen any sort of passing that makes me confident that he could be someone who could be a connector or move the ball now there is theoretically once again some screen enrolling there because he did it in college I looked it up he he was the role man in a pick and roll 19 times total last season so there wasn't a ton of that either.

15:28But it's weird because like when I list all this stuff it sounds like I would almost be low on him but I'm not because one of the things you can't teach his physical tools and the suns don't have a lot of guys with great physical tools in this podcast is the two guys that have the best physical tools on the Phoenix Suns in this coming season in reshier Fleming and come on mall watch because big with long arms and strong and able to jump and run is an important thing in the NBA and it always has been but like now. It's sort of more important than it's been in in previous years now the offensive rebounding is not nothing because like excuse me creating possessions possession maxing if we're going to call it that is something that matters on the suns and if you combine possession maxing with a willingness to shoot threes that seems to be the two things that Jordan ought wants out of players who can't create with the ball now I don't know how to say can't create with the ball or can't create the ball.

16:28I'm going to get with the ball relative to this team because we're talking about Dylan Brooks Miles bridges and you know they're jailing greed these guys are allowed to shoot maybe on other teams they wouldn't be allowed to shoot as much as they are but on this team they are and outside of those guys reshier Fleming Ryan done whoever's going to be the guys who fill in the gaps outside of that they need to do those things to remain on the floor and I think what's cool about reshier Fleming is even though much of its theoretical all of it is pretty good for how young he is and it's not going to be a lot of fun. If you put all of that pretty good stuff together along with the effort to continue attacking on the offensive rebounding and the willingness to shoot from three that's a guy who probably will continue to get minutes in this coming season and if you which we're going to talk about in a second factor in some improvements year over year. It's tough to say that he's not going to be at the very least a pretty good role player pretty fast in the NBA maybe as early as this year what do you think Gerald. Yeah I think like my expectations for season two are just kind of establishing yourself as a role player and I I've been on record about this before I don't think the sons are going to win a title in the Devon Booker era but I think if that's what the goal still is because they keep talking about how Devon Booker is never going to be traded how they're building around him and you look at the team like they're clearly trying to not contend this year but take those steps to get back to contention.

17:54I think their best best path to getting there is one or two of these youngsters really hitting and I don't know if I see either of that happening in year two for come on or for reshier but I think that's your most likely pat like miles bridges being your third best player fourth best player whatever he is I don't see that being a title contending team. If reshier Fleming or come on mall watch can get there within the next two to three years maybe depending on how good they are you have something to like actually build a better team around. So you're kind of banking a lot on these youngsters development which is why I'm so one of the many reasons why I'm so against this miles bridges trade because I agree with Sam I think they could have they could have addressed that for spot with a trade for somebody else if they wanted and like you know Roy so Neil was a good fit but not a great player like you can all yeah I really so Neil Mike could I don't know I don't know how you felt Gerald Mike could tell you certainly that I had really

18:57sourd on the Roy so Neil experience Mike was defending Roy so Neil from me on basically every podcast post also break is I was just so sick of it so sick of the just bleeding points defensively every time he was on the on the floor so I understand they had to do something it was just like you looked at the other teams that traded unprotected first round picks this summer and with the exception of the Lakers trade they did it for Walker Kessler but everyone else it was like we're trading these picks for a star and miles bridges just you know he doesn't have that same pedigree so I was either wanted them to like do the small time move for like some veteran role player you know like I even proposed deals to the same team in Charlotte for like Grant Williams or PJ Washington or some bullshit you know like instead of miles bridges just some guy who's competent for 20 minutes or if you're going to go all the way and you're going to trade your picks I wanted an actual all star and I don't feel that way about miles so it is Sam is I know you I know this might have might have spoken to you more a few years ago than it would have this summer because he's gotten up there but like if they had sacrificed the less valuable pick instead of that 2033 pick they sent the 2027 pick they could have easily gotten like Julius Randall and I would have read

20:13the miles bridges and port Julius during the whole much better player yes like what are we doing here why are we investing in miles but that's neither here nor there but like and poor Joe is now on the Brooklyn with absolutely absolutely no one around him so the relegation zone he's banished to the relegation and he literally a guy on a team specifically there to make sure they don't finish in the bottom of the it's Julius is this year yeah and he's the only one who's going to help them in that goal there is there as single other player on the Brooklyn that's roster who can help them avoid the relegation zone because I can't think of one right now Julius relegation Randall here we go. Yeah but no going back to your original thing like that's I do I my expectations for Fleming were tempered like I wasn't expecting him to go out there be a sure fire starter who's playing 30 minutes a night in the suns or some 50 win team but I honestly think the short term sacrifice in the

21:16win column would have been worth it to feed reshare Fleming and come on while watch 15 to 20 minutes a game because like I said I think this team is I think they're better than last year on paper at least but I don't think they're good and that like it's OK see San Antonio at the top and then there's a big gap and I don't know if the suns are even a top six team in the West necessarily as constructed unless those young guys take a big leap so I am not a fan of obstructing reshare Fleming's minutes there I'm not a fan of the fact that come on while watch also will be juggling minutes with two other centers who deserve to play yeah can earn minutes so it's it's kind of a bummer that both of these guys that I was super excited about are now like I don't know what their minutes are going to look like especially with the way ought was very methodical and careful with their development year one well let's interrogate that real quick right because you know with the way the roster is set up right now I think the suns roster looks more normal than it did six months ago but is still a little

22:18quirky in places right there's still kind of a bunch of guards and in certain spots you know like I have a feeling Jordan Goodwin is still going to be the small Ford in some line ups I know that he's going to be the power for it anymore as was one of our inside jokes last year that Jordan Goodwin was like the most underrated power for the best power for it on the suns yeah but like he's still going to be playing big ish but if you think about it like okay so reshier Fleming is not the starter miles bridges is the starter but outside of the starting lineup who actually is the forward on this roster who will get the most minutes on the team because your options are also a guitar if you kind of count them as a forward center he could maybe place a minutes at the for they didn't really try it last year but they keep pretending he's going to do it yeah but yeah I think there's this again to use the word theoretical there's this theoretical idea that maybe his skill set will mix with mullowatch we can talk about that a little bit more and we get to the mullowatch part of the conversation so like maybe he plays some minutes he'll certainly play a lot of

23:20minutes you know just how many of them will be at the power for it spot but outside of that reshier's only real competition is Ryan Dunn co-opete who I'm very happy that they have co-opete really liked him at summer league not sure how you felt Gerald but you know I'm not expecting him to play much you know he would he would have to really earn it over both done and reshier and you still have Haywood high Smith in the mix who we thought was a goner there for a second but then they brought him back right who could play some minutes but like I don't think Haywood high Smith is going to play more minutes than then reshier Fleming in year two right but we don't think that so I don't know Mike Mike is questioning it so but my point is to say I think reshier opens the season maybe one literally call him a sixth man because like that's probably Colin Gillespie or whoever but like he's in the rotation college should be a starter by the end of the year I'm gonna keep he should be he should be playing 15 minutes on opening night unless some crazy should happens like Jordan not decides that he just loves Haywood high Smith that much

24:23right or co-op just looks amazing no I agree I think he's the most likely to win those minutes I am not I'm not a huge fan of him having that like competition is good don't get me wrong but I think there are certain guys that you look at in this league and are like okay he needs to get minutes for the good of our long term trajectory and I feel like Fleming is he's second to come on while watching that respect like I think we're probably all gonna be aligned on that one but I I don't know like I they're high on co-op Pete as well he looked good in summer league I think he'll be the odd man out as a rookie unless he really just like blows everyone away and kind of makes it a no-brainer decision there I don't see that in your one for him Ryan does an interesting one to me because I don't know where he gets his minutes and I kind of wish that he would have an opportunity to play as well because I feel like you know last year was obviously not what we were expecting I was going to the

25:24season expecting him to kind of win that starting job later in the year never materialized you know the shooting progressed technically by like 2% but it wasn't where it needs to be so I had last week the two digging into the stats there was mostly just because he shot a lot more corner three is and kind of gave up on on above the three so right so it's kind of the same and like this is a pivotal year three for him so I would like to see him get minutes but I don't know where he's gonna get minutes I think Fleming wins my mind in my mind the way Ryan done gets minutes is he's really fighting with Heywood Highsmith for the like 12 minutes in the 10th man role and he needs to come out like a bad out of hell at training camp and be the best point of attack defender on the team maybe outside of Jordan Goodwin who I think we all love but like Jordan Goodwin's just small you know outside of him can Ryan done still lock into that role I don't know but I think that's how he would earn minutes over you know a veteran like Heisman yeah but I think you're right I think Fleming has the inside

26:29track to that but there's just there is a lot of competition there's a lot of different ways that he could go because like he said the roster is a little bit quirky because you have two guys like Heywood Icemith and Jordan Goodwin that could play up a position or two you've got also a guitaro that could play the four if he's paired with a three point shooting big like come on model watch but is come on model watch gonna get minutes like it's maybe molo watch could play the four next to Mark Williams at the five I think any possibility is is on the table with this roster they have a bunch of tweeners in theory so they do and honestly like Dylan Brooks and Miles Bridges they're strong but they're not that big like they're six foot seven but they don't have but they're a little bit undersized for being three slash fours so you kind of need some of those youngsters like the Ryan Dunns like the reshare Fleming's two get minutes if you don't want to be undersized again which is crazy because they just traded away some of that like six foot four and under glut that they have you've heard us talk about alchemy roast before but

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28:42was very good at summer league and like he looked like the third best of the young guys sorry in summer league out of co-op heat come on mullawat she was clearly the best and then and then there was a share of Fleming CJ Huntly but he beat out Kobe Brea he did beat out Kobe Brea and that wasn't very hard Kobe Brea ahead and absolutely brutal summer league I thought we promised we weren't going to utter his name anymore I'm sorry I'm asking move on so I just want to know Gerald does that concern you at all does it or doesn't matter at all I know in some respects summer league doesn't matter at all but I do think looking bad in summer league tends to matter more than looking good yeah where I don't know what do you think yeah I think it's a tough one with Fleming because obviously second bad I should say because I know people are going to jump down my throat about that he didn't look bad but he just didn't look very good either no he had a couple of rough shooting nights but I think some of the defensive stuff some of the other stuff was still there and I think like summer league it's a weird thing because you want your second year player to go out

29:49and dominate like we saw mullawatts do we want kind of the experience that he got especially in the second half of the season to kind of translate to an environment against against less experienced or less NBA ready players and it didn't until kind of I think it was the last summer league game where he like went off but I do think summer league is kind of an environment that's less conducive to a player like reshare Fleming because I do see him you mentioned the the stats about the impact I do see him as more of a impactful player that is not always going to show up on the stat sheet in terms of the just the fact that the team plays better when he's on the floor and I think a guy like that is going to be elevated by the quality of players around him and so summer league not that it's always a I'm going to get mine type of environment but it can be and I feel like co-op is that type of player who he's got the individual skill set that can show better in that type of environment than reshare who's kind of the 3 and D

30:52guy so I I don't put too much stock in it it's it's definitely on my radar it's something I'm keeping an eye on for sure but I do put more stock and kind of the limited time that we saw in actual NBA games where he was part of the rotation then I do you know kind of just plain third fiddle to come on and coa in summer league. Sam does that concern you at all? Yeah it does I definitely wanted him to pop but I also understand everything that Gerald is saying about kind of the summer league environment and what that looks like I think again to go to the next one and I think it's a really productive with it we all know summer league is the type of environment where if a guy plays really well then that means everything and we'll talk about that with Mala watch and if a guy doesn't play that well it was just summer league you know it doesn't matter that much it's just summer league we're all having perfect. Yeah so yeah I in terms of what he needs to improve right are we

31:53it's not fair to say everything because that's not true I think we always need to be mindful of I mean this is the third part of the question right like you know how confident are we in the improvements that they make the first thing that I sort of circled in like my deep dive of of her sheer statistically that I sort of remembered I test wise but then I looked at the number and I was like man that's worse than I was expecting you should have 54% at the rim last year which was 9th 9th percentile and it's tough because Rashir I think is a smart cutter in terms of his off-ball instincts of how he moves without the ball I think he definitely has that element in his game to be able to cut effectively but there was something that happened last year where and part of it is a small sample size but I said 54% it's probably on a sample size of like 45 to 50 shots or something like not not that many but still the percentage when he was actually finishing at the rim compared to a guy like Mala watch who of course is much bigger

32:57or even Oso Gidara who isn't that much bigger his percentage at the rim was actually not very good and coupled with the fact that Rashir as we know doesn't really have any of that mid-range touch in his game at least not at this point he needs to find a way to be effective offensively that isn't just standing in the corner and shooting threes and that means playing out in transition or playing out of the dunker spot or playing as a pick and roll finisher you know doing something to finish at the rim he needs to be better than better than 54% in his sophomore year by a lot yes like is a part of me that you know when we watch summer league and we talk about Rashir Fleming where I just get a little nervous that we're like hyping up the next Tory Craig I know what I mean I 100% understand where that fear comes from yeah and I do think there is more potential there but there probably was more potential there early on in Tory Craig's career

33:57and maybe the physical elements of his game are better as well because he's just got longer arms and he just has some of those things that you just need to be a great defender in the NBA now but we haven't quite seen all of that put together on the court for any sort of regular sense but yeah in the restricted area he shot 53.8% like that's not very good from mid-range he shot two from two for nine I don't remember those two I'll tell you that much I remember him taking a few fade away shots that he tried to do the range like when the shot clock was winding down but I don't remember them going in you could tell it because we're talking about summer league two you could tell that in summer league there was a little bit more emphasis in his game of like okay I'm going to play around with like a little step back mid-range as you would happens I don't remember if he made those shots do you guys remember I don't think he did it all I don't think any of them I think he made one and I think I remember it because I was like oh shit and then he missed all the rest that's yeah I like him trying that in summer league though

34:58oh 100% I think there's a huge thing to be said for like the NBA in 2026 is not like the NBA in 2016 in 2016 if you were just a 3-in-D guy who just shot three is unfinished at the rim and had no in-between skill whatsoever I think you could very much get away with that guy like Robert Cumberington made a career out of that and made all defense teams that's another guy would you know maybe compare reshier to in terms of player comps in 2026 I think if you want to be at the championship level ideally even your 3-in-D role players have a little bit of in-between skill and the ability to shift speeds and maybe you know just have a floater or something so that's like a long-term goal for reshier but we're starting more basic than that like you need to convert lay ups and dunks before you even get to talking about the 15-foot step back midi or whatever given Durant turn the stuff in it it's tough because you watch his college film and yes it's like not the greatest college that he played out or the greatest division that he's playing in but he looks like a Maure with the 3-point shot

36:00you know like he's a finisher finisher finisher player he's not someone who's going to create for himself regularly even in college occasional drives happened in college but it's just not really how he plays and he's on a team with very little passing which is and you know and probably didn't play a ton of his minutes with Devon Booker as far as the actual one good passer on this team so he really would benefit from having more passing on this team they didn't address that at all in the off season so it didn't get better in fact I mean you know Miles Bridges is not terrible at passing but neither was Grayson last year like I don't think that it necessarily improved in any you know real sense then last year but here's what I will say I almost feel like it sounds like I'm down on him I'm not really I do think there's a world they were very careful with this year last year is how I would put it he wasn't asked to do a lot and many of the conversations that were had around reshare Fleming were about his level of confidence and trying to increase his level of confidence on the floor and what I want is for I want to see a world where Jordan ought

37:05sort of unleashes him a little bit and I'm not saying we need more of those turn around you know fade away shots but like leaning into him as a screener popping or you know even rolling to the rim a little bit more maybe trying to test his limits as a sort of short role playmaker to see if there's anything there in the spacing that the NBA provides because it's nothing like college and then you know defensively maybe putting him on the ball a little bit more because he mostly was an off ball defender and when you're an off ball defender with with length like that that's good you can create turnovers you can find ways to get to the to the rim to get rebounds actually like you mentioned offensive rebounding earlier I think weak side rim protection might be reshare is like number one most this is an NBA skill right now like he's he's good even as an NBA player as a weak side rim protector but yeah putting him on ball they could 100% do that more just trying just trying a little bit more

38:05and then he's going to be in the game with him to see what's there and it's it's very true I think and this is what I worry about because a problem I think with with Haywood Highsmith being on the bench still which I'm glad he is by the way is he's a veteran and there will just be times in games where the game is close there's a lot on the line the sons are going to be in the margins trying to make the top six of the playoffs where I just think Jordan not is going to lean on veterans more and more and more that's what he did last year there's no reason to think he's not going to do that in the coming season and you know that's the guy that will probably be attacked if he's stepping in there ahead of him and you know it is what it is I'm not really you have to earn minutes in the NBA too so you have to play well to continue getting minutes so I'm not always upset by it but in some ways I'm like I just want to see him on the court more to see what's there to see what they can really unlock and and I do think he could I think he can continue shooting threes and I think his three point percentage could go up I'd like to see him screen and roll to the rim a little bit more and test the

39:05limits on what he can do as a connector maybe there is or isn't something there like I said there's not been a lot of passing so far in his career but you have to do it in the NBA you just can't be bad at anything in the NBA anymore you kind of have to do everything you're not to be great at everything but you kind of have to be able to do everything to play the way the sons are trying to play but what do you think Gerald as far as improvements for this year yeah I mean you you kind of touched on it and it's it's kind of an all around thing for me but the number one thing is make it indisputable that he is that back up four behind Miles bridges because you mentioned like he would he would not was throwing him out there in crunch time of games when this dude had been back for like two or three games like it didn't take long for you to lean on the experience at all in that respect my thing with Fleming and I brought this up before like I would rather see for the context of this season and where the sun's team is trying to go I would rather see reshare Fleming play crunch time minutes for like a 40 win team then hey would high Smith play crunch time minutes for like a 45 46 with team like yeah I would rather see him get those

40:11opportunities and occasionally fail then you know throw in a guy who they brought back after maybe in the first place so I think for him that's that's the biggest thing is making sure that you are that guy but you guys touched on it really well I think the rim thing is concerning Sam you brought up the percentile and on cleaning the glass which takes out garbage time which is kind of unfair for a guy in his position because a lot of garbage time 50% of his minutes yeah yeah but he was like second percentile and rim accuracy at his position which is bad it's wrong didn't get to the short mid range at all first percentile in short mid range frequency which I think for a guy like that matters because if you can establish that you are a decent three point shooter and I don't expect him to necessarily do that in your two but by year three you should be a guy that people are closing out on from the three point line so then the next step obviously becomes attacking closeouts well if you're not finishing at the rim well you need a

41:12full pull up or a floater or something in that in between area and that's kind of something that is going to be a longer term work in progress I'm a little more optimistic he'll be better at the rim because I think part of that is just the inconsistent minutes and opportunities I would I totally agree would like to see him more as a screener and being that guy in the short role the roller see what he can do in that respect because in college in his last year at college I think he shot was it in the half court it was like 67% in the half court at the rim so he's he has it in his game we know he has the skills the physical tools to do it it just didn't look good in year one for either of the rookies at the rim so I want to see more of that I would like to see maybe just some type of burgeoning in between game and then you know in order to get to that point I do think you've got to be like a 37 38% 3 point shooter in year two I would I would like to see him carry forward the momentum

42:15like I've been spouting off that stat from mid February to the end of the season like for the last six months please don't make me look stupid by going out there and shooting like 35% for three this season yeah yeah because I I do think with more consistent reps if you can earn those minutes like he gets a lot of his looks from the corners and just spot up threes I think three point shooting was his swing skill heading into the draft so it would be nice to kind of back that up with a okay I got my minutes I got my consistent role here's what I'm able to do with a consistent output from three point range and it's around 37 38% yeah and ideally some of those coming from the top of the key to right just because that that changes the space and convention of what you can do means you can play small ball five I know there's a lot of centers on this team but you can play small ball five if you can hit a top of the key three or like a trailing three in some situations but if you don't have that it's it's a lot harder to justify so yeah and just like not everyone on this team we talked about it again with Ryan done last week two like not everyone on this team

43:21can just be standing in the corner someone needs to be at the top of the key to space the floor so so ideally that's reshier in the future yeah and and more offensively we're kind and more kind of we're kind of talking about everything on offense yeah it's the unfortunate thing but I mean he was asked to do one thing yeah stand in the corner and shoot when you catch it and did that and crash you know and crash yeah offensive boards is part of his game but you know Gerald you mentioned what he does when they're closing out to a big important thing for him and this is the third guy in a row that we're going to have this conversation about make your free throws yes oh good free throws good fucking point everyone on this team needs to make their free that's how he would high Smith is going to earn minutes by the way like everyone's everyone's going to be ganging up on he would high Smith for stealing minutes from Ryan done and and reshier Fleming but if all those guys are shooting 55% from the free throw line then you know there's going to be areas where at the end of the game Jordan on is going to trust a veteran which is funny because he would high Smith probably has 10 dunks in his career right like that's not a particularly athletic

44:22to do compared to some of these really high for a lot of guys yeah yeah yeah but he's just he's just like short and round and he's kind of he's BJ Tuckery right as a as a forward I think the thing the thing you mentioned Jay Crowder and what I desperate for on this team is for a young guy to have some semblance of defensive swagger the way Jay Crowder had like MacKell bridges didn't even have it really like there was a couple times where he would summon it at the end of a game you know we talked about the concept on this podcast Sam you know I have of like a clutch defensive player someone who who fires it up at the end of a game MacKell bridges always had that where his defense got better in the last five minutes of a game you know and but Jay Crowder like Dylan Brooks has it that's another guy that has it but I would like to see one of these young guys just just ramp up their confidence on the defensive end and in some ways reshare Fleming needs to ramp up his confidence in general because that's what the coaching staff kept saying about him

45:23and and you got to believe that they just the word confidence came up a lot when they talked about reshare Fleming they just need I think even Jordan ought said this guy doesn't even know or maybe it was Brian Gregory this guy doesn't even know how good he could be yes is how they described him so it's clear they think he could be even better than he even imagines and that's probably the physical elements of you know just his size and skill physically but the rest of its mental and he's got to get there from the mental sense and admittedly it's tough to get there from the mental sense if you're only playing 55 games in 12 minutes a game in those 55 games like he's got to find ways onto the core and that means getting better in the practice facility that means working hard in the gym and really getting there I think he can improve his three point shots lately I think he can improve his free throw percentage maybe even a lot I think he could probably improve other elements of the defensive part of his game and I think that's probably where I really want to see him improve the most in this coming season and those are the things I feel the most confident about him getting better

46:29I'm not going to think he's going to you know be driving to the room 11 times a game or something like that in this coming season would that be cool yeah that be great but I'm not going to expect that it's just going to be tough for him to get easy points on this team unless they're wide open kitchen shoot 3s because of the lack of passing and in the amount of guys that can hit him on the cut is like Devon Booker and Osuigadaro and maybe Colin Gillespie and that's it you know like there's just not a lot of the guys that can do that regularly and those are the things I feel pretty confident about him improving on Gerald what do you see in this next season that you think he he'll probably improve on I think he will prove me right on the 3 point percentage thing I think he will be more efficient around the basket because I like I said he has the physical tools for he was obviously the a 10 is not the same thing is the NBA but he was a lot better finishing at the rim and I think this team like because of the 3 point swaps that they've made in terms of both volume and efficiency with this roster I think they're going to need to

47:30live at the rim a little bit more so I'm hopeful that they put him in more picking roles and see what he can do in that respect get him going downhill a little bit more I don't expect him to be you know driving past 3 point closeouts and hit and pull up middies or floaters or things like that marginal improvement from the free throw well not marginal from the free throw line it needs to be better considering where he was as a rookie and I think defensively like you said throwing him on the ball a little bit more is a realistic thing where I think he could because he had you know people were foaming at the mouth over how he did in that one game against LeBron I think it was yeah he was great in that game and so I think he's got it in him and I would like to see that especially if he's sharing the court with Ryan done like let Ryan done go back to the Troy Paul Mauloo free safety role that he was in college and let maybe reshare Fleming take some of that on ball assignments from him the one thing I will say because I completely agree with you that I think this team needs a different defensive enforcer preferably from the younger crowd

48:33because like Dylan Brooks does it but Dylan Brooks does it too much to the point where he like gives the other team fuel like he like we saw LeBron how it burned them in that Lakers he poaks the bear as this yes he goes overboard and and Dylan is such a villain type persona as it is people are going to want to score on him as it is so you need a younger guy who does that Jordan Goodwin I wish he would just talk a little bit more shit because he's got the defense to do it but he doesn't really strike me as that type of player for whatever reason so I would like to see that from someone in the younger crowd I don't think it will be Fleming though just because the the limited number of interviews I had with him talking to his college coach talking to some of the people on the team like he is just a very quiet very kind individual like he's like he'll be he'll compete obviously when he gets on the court but he is not the talk your shit type he is I know he's he's very religious so like I think that's ingrained in him as part of his

49:35sportsmanship type approach to the game so I don't think it'll be him but it would be nice to be at least played with it yes he is yes on the on the religious aspect at least I'm not sure about coa being a kind of that soft spoken I don't have he's a lot more fiery on the court I feel like yeah if I was going to put my money on any of them honestly it would be you know in terms of a a guy whose confidence blossoms and he just becomes a talk your shit type of guy I kind of see that in man man you know I think man man could I think man man can absolutely get there but but yeah it's not something I'm expecting necessarily from reshure yeah Sam do you have anything else to add about reshure for me before we move on to I'm more or less ready to move on to mullowatch I would just you know button up everything we've said by saying that you know what we're looking for him to solidify his role right I think you're right to say Mike that there's overall a dearth of playmaking on this team but there are a bunch of smart players in terms of the

50:36guards who come off the bench between congal espy Luke canards got a little bit of playmaking chops pat Spencer if he plays definitely as playmaking chops I could see reshure just carving out a role where he develops some good chemistry with some of those guys so yeah hoping hoping for him to look solid in 15 to 20 minutes next year all right let's talk about come on mullowatch this man might be the headliner of the internal development series here as the player I think we all agree has the highest ceiling of all the young guys on the Phoenix Suns is that is do we all agree with that yes yes okay I mean do we count calling Gillespie there no we know okay he sees too old even though he's a reshure man yes Sam let's talk about

51:38come on mullowatch similar I'm just going to give a similar stat here just to really because I think this total minutes played stat is important for these two guys because we're just working off of less data for reshure Fleming and come on mullowatch come on only played 411 total minutes in the NBA so far and only 105 shots taken so far in the NBA and you know some of that 21 of them were 3 points shots only made five of those they were 411 glorious minutes and I enjoyed every single one of them it's pretty bad at first Sam let's be honest but we'll start in the same place here Gerald when I say come on mullowatch who do you think he is I hope I hope that he is the future of the Phoenix Suns and I think that might be overshooting what he winds up being but we have seen it for years with this team the value of having a big man who can defend the paint block shots rebound be the defensive anchor

52:40there were times when Deandre eight and would be that guy and then there were other nights where he would just be completely adrift I'm hopeful that come on mullowatch can be a bigger version of that guy and a guy who actually spreads his range to 3 point range a guy who he's got a lot of work to do in terms of just like handling the ball on the perimeter for simple like handoffs or making clean catches in the in the lane when it's congested in there but the physical tools just like with Rochir are off the charts you've heard so many players and coaches talk about how vocal he is like everybody talks about those type of goofy things for summer league but to hear them talking about it in training camp and that sort of thing and how he's one of the most vocal people out there I do think that matters if you're going to be that defensive anchor for the future so for me I'm hopeful that he is their five of the future and I'm hopeful that the future starts as early as this season

53:41I want him to make it like very clear that he is going to be that guy he did deserve to be that top 10 pick that the suns you know traded like the centerpiece of this Kevin Durant return package that they got I think maybe I'm getting ahead of myself and expectations for year two but he did look really really good if you wanted to see that kind of future aligning for him as soon as this season I don't know how you could watch summer league and think that it was anything but kind of at least putting himself in position to get there it was so good man summer league was such a gift for this podcast specifically thank God we had so really in talking about come on because last season there was good spots and there's some bad ones but summer league was just like this bright shining positive beacon for come on mall watch and how he played but Sam what do you think who is come on mall watch to you for my money he might as well be sub saher in Jesus Christ

54:42I looked I looked it up by the way south Sudan is below the saher in desert country of Sudan is not but so that's the part I was concerned about thank you thank you yeah I I yeah I mean so Gerald evidently isn't going to be the one to talk me down here I think there's a real chance and we have to qualify everything we say on the pod of course because we understand that there's like a massive amount of variance with this guy but there is a true chance that come on mall watch is the player who saves our lives for the next five years it just gives us that forward looking purpose so what's crazy about it to me before we get into like all of the specific stats I just think about generally speaking this guy was making an impact in the second half like specifically post all star break of his rookie season he was making an impact he was playing some minutes not a lot of minutes but some minutes against real NBA competition on a playoff team

55:47and he was not sinking the team right that's point one then he goes into summer league and he is awesome not just like like you remember before summer or in summer league of his rookie season he was putrid his splits were terrible I was just hoping he could compete so for then for him to go into that sort of exhibition play and maybe it's only four games but he led the team and basically every stat he average 20 points 13 rebounds he was making threes he was finishing through contact getting to the free throw line doing all of these things awesome summer league performance now for year two if you compare him to all of the guys who just got drafted he is four months older than AJ DeBonza he is three months older than Darren Peterson he is younger than Caleb Wilson who just got drafted fourth overall like there are a lot of reason I just you know I couldn't resist taking a shot at Sam Quinn on Twitter the other day who was talking up like Keaton Vogler for a Wogler I want to pronounce his name like a Franz Wagner for some reason even though it's not

56:57same Keaton yeah like he's German in my mind some yeah he's German in my mind he's not German but Sam Quinn was talking up like oh the clippers will be fine they've Keaton Wogler I'm like dude Mala watch is young I want to he's literally younger than Wogler but he's the same age and he might be a lot fucking better we can't say that with any degree of certainty but like there are a lot of reasons to be all in on this guy right now and we kind of unfortunately need him to be and I don't want to put all that pressure and expectation on him in year two but this is to me Mala watch is the guy who I'm most excited to watch on the entire well I don't know I always get pleasure out of watching DeBon Booker but there's a part of me that has really circled Mala watch is like every time he's on the floor this season it's it's must watch basketball for me that's a that's a thing that happens when you're a big fan of an NBA team where the young guys are the guys you look forward to the most I feel like when you watch every game and you really take for granted the guys who are just good every night right right but I agree too I feel the same where you know we're doing well I think we should probably do some sort of ranking of all the young guys and include co-op in just our level of excitement to watch them play after this if you guys remind me to do that before the end of this podcast because I'm sick but I

58:13agree that he's just a guy that I'm very excited to see and to me the first thing I think of when I think of come on Mala watch is that he's huge and I know it's like lizard brain dumb guy stuff but like when he steps under the court every single time I'm like oh yeah he's huge I forgot because you know often it's Osuigidaro out there and then all of a sudden you see come on Mala watch on the floor and it's like oh that's like a real actual huge guy that's on the floor and he moves well at his size the other thing I think of you know Sam you mentioned it is that he's very young he's not just very young in his actual age he's also very young in the amount of years that he's played basketball which is in in some ways it benefited the sons it's probably the reason he was a 10th overall in their ability to pick him because maybe he could have been better in college and and climbed up the draft a little bit had he had more years of playing basketball under him but he didn't and that allowed the sons to pick him but that also means that it's going to take a little bit more time for him to develop into the NBA player that he is going to be and maybe it's not

59:15linear it never is maybe that happens this year maybe happens faster maybe happens next year who knows but he's huge and that leads to him being an excellent rim defender he was good at that this year which I'm grateful for because that's one thing you can already sort of hang your hat on when he plays the Phoenix sons defense is better and that's already happening with him and that's nice to see because there's a lot of room for improvement in what he's doing out there defensively he's mostly playing in a drop they did experiment with him playing at the level about halfway through the season occasionally playing up high on the picking rolls just to see almost yokeach style defense just to see what he can do poking the ball maybe getting the passing lane a little bit offensively he's a good finisher already I think the finishing could get even better but the thing that is great about him already offensively is he just doesn't look scared like he's the only young guy that we can talk about that's a good free throw shooter which is nice to say and that does mean that he

1:00:20is great at getting fouled like he's actually in I looked it up on on the basketball index player profiles as far as like getting fouled on drives he's in like the 94th percentile he just gets fouled and like that kind of grifting if you want to call it that will just be a good way for him to get easy points in the NBA because if you make 70% or more of them which he did last year and that could get better because often that type of thing does get better that's just easy offense for a player like him you know if you add in great rim defense good finishing and an ability to get fouled and make your free throws that's a good player pretty quickly like we're talking pretty quickly that's that's already maybe a starting caliber center yeah yeah and then you add in the theoretical stuff yeah which is could he be a three point shooter which we don't know but it looks good in summer league and like they seem to think he can because they're letting him do it you know excellent rim defender who could finish make his free throws and make three point shots you're

1:01:23talking about a really good NBA center if all of that connects at the same time now the the defense does have to get better but like the ceiling on his defense is very high it's very high it's just he has the body for it he seems to have the brain for it he's not scared which matters a lot he communicates a lot out there on the floor and like like immediately you draft him and you go can he be Rudy go bear at least that's where my brain goes like can he be just that and that's asking him to be like a all you know defensive player the every year level defender which is probably asking too much but he has the physical tools to be that which is not nothing because like part of the reason Rudy go bear is Rudy go bear is because he has the physical tools to be Rudy go bear like there's more to it obviously but those physical tools are sort of the number one thing that helps him to be that and you know I would like to see what level his defense can get to as early as this year and to

1:02:26me if it's good if it's just as good as it was last year he should get a lot more minutes and if it's better it's tough to imagine a situation as you talked about to start this podcast your where he can't be the starter by the end of of this year now I don't know it's it's tough to not think about sealing with c'mon that's kind of where all of our brains go when talking about him but like what level do you think his defense can get to Gerald I am hopeful that it could get to like all defensive team level I don't know about like defensive player the year as long as Victor Wemme Niabo is still alive and breathing but yeah that it playing enough at point but yeah like go bear was one generation but unfortunately for defensive player the year level like the bar has been raised now that Wemme is a thing but I think he could be somewhere in that echelon about how we talk about I don't I don't think he's as mobile as like a chet home grin type but somebody who can

1:03:26not just defend at the rim and block a lot of shots because that's kind of you know that's go bear's main attraction and main attribute but I can defend in between as well can step out on the perimeter and and stifle you know and I so I do I think he has the makings both offensively and defensively of the big that we have been waiting for Devin Booker to have for basically his entire career like I I don't want to get too far ahead of myself but I'm the prince who was promised yes the prince who was promised like I don't want to get too far ahead of myself but I'm gonna get really fucking hard far ahead of myself real quick I think if you had a device a time traveling device and you could pluck come on malawatch at this point in his career and drop him in where Deandre and was drafted back then and watch him develop I think the sons would have won a championship that's a really hurtful thing that you just said I just want you to know that that really hurts like you're probably right like I think I that's how high I am on his development and he's still

1:04:30has to go out improve a lot of this because he's averaging 13 points per game in that final series if malawatch is in there just clearing out taking 40% true shooting for Janice and Ted's a combo he's toast but like I genuinely think his his trajectory is that type of player that you're gonna look back at 2021 and wish that guy had been in his spot instead and I am hopeful that it's not too late in Devon Booker's career to have a big like that it probably is it might be because like you said it might take a few years to come together to come to fruition they're gonna have to be patient with him they're gonna have to continue to feed him minutes which is why I'm not crazy about Mark Williams having Mark Williams and also a guitaro but I do think there's value to having the differences in type a big like oh so versus big like Mark Williams and come on but I do think malawatch is going to be defensively imposing like as a rookie he was coming in and blocking like two shots a game when he actually got decent minutes when Mark Williams got down

1:05:34like that's not really common and I think he's only gonna get better there are lapses and things that you would expect from a rookie or from such a young player mistakes that type of thing but if he can retain some mobility as he starts to get older if he can be a little bit more you know the lateral movement be a little bit better I think he's got the makings of a very very versatile and very dynamic impactful defender whenever he's on the floor two things on the defense specifically the rim protection because I think we can all agree like yeah we hope he gets better at other things but right now what's he great at rim protection yeah he shot or opponent shot 44% at the rim against this guy last year I understand so crazy I understand the sample size has to get better for reference league averages like 62 defensive player the year level is usually you know around 50 maybe in the upper 40s

1:06:37so yeah the sample size is going to increase the level of competition is going to increase but the fact that he was even at 44 as a rookie is absurd it's truly absurd his potential to alter shots at the rim we certainly never saw anything like that out of deandre and I think we had one really good season with deandre and either when they went to the finals or the 64 win season when he was in like the lower 50s but then he you know he would stop giving a shit and he would regress and that's that and frankly I just think moloatch has a much better motor I think we've seen that already out of his his commitment to his own growth compared to where eight and was as a rookie and then the other thing just to underscore actually what I was just saying about growth fouls a lot of times you get young biggs who have to learn how to play in the NBA and there's a negative bias associated with them to the works against them with the officiating where maybe they give you good flashes defensively but you know it'll be like jaren jackson junior right you pick up

1:07:37your fourth or fifth foul after playing 18 minutes and you have to get to a certain level where you can prove that you can even stay on the court for longer stretches of time come on moloatch pre all star break where he was mostly just playing garbage time average five point seven fouls per 36 really like you know looked like a deer in headlights yes he would get some blocks but you know he had to learn how to play the game he had to learn how to contest vertically and and not just like you know lean into the contact every time against those defenders it is amazing the speed with which he improved in that stat because post all star break when he was playing real minutes against real NBA talent that stat fell to 3.1 fouls per 36 so I think he's already shown a capacity where if you need him to play 20 25 minutes he can do that and I don't think he's going to be in foul trouble you know like maybe sometimes if you put him against joele and

1:08:37be either or y'allness or whatever but like against just on an average night I think you can trust come on moloatch to protect the rim 15 or 20 times a game maybe even to play up high on some picking rolls and not reach in and pick up his third or fourth or fifth foul after not too much time which is a remarkable privilege that the suns already have a lot of biggs just never figure that out and their potential is limited right there you know we talked about confidence with rishier Fleming and how that's an area of his game that he needs to improve it's not really a problem with come on you're all right like he just seems like a guy who's like pretty confident and sure of himself maybe it's even his detriment to his detriment sometimes in that he's trying to do a little bit too much with the ball and you kind of have to talk him off of that ledge a little bit and get him back into just the rhythm and flow of the game and just doing the regular stuff really well and you know like it's kind of nice you know when talking about how he can improve it's kind of nice that I do feel like if he's asked to do something he's gonna try to do it you know

1:09:44what I mean and that seems like a small thing but like that's not true of Ryan done like Ryan done I feel like every coach is at you know the two coaches he's had have asked him to shoot more and he doesn't and that's that's kind of tough for him to to be in the scenario where he's not actually doing that and maybe also a guitar always someone who is a little bit more like that but I don't know we'll see if he can shoot because they're threatening us with that but I think with come on molo watch like if you need him to shoot more threes he's gonna do it if they ask him to shoot more threes I just think he's gonna do it if you're asking him to maybe stick to his on his feet a little bit and not jump at every shot at the rim just be big at the rim I feel like he can do that like I feel like that's the kind of coaching he's gonna take to and actually be good I would go so far as to say like if you wanted molo watch now this would be a bad strategy that would lead you to actively losing games as we'll talk about what he's not good at but if you were like we want you to play out of the elbow and like be an initiating hub for five

1:10:45times a game just to get some growth out of him right just to like problem with a stick and see what he can do he would do that and I think that's the area of his game that he would be really bad at but I still think to Mike's point that he would do it and he would do it happily and he would just try things he would try to get to the free throw line he would try to you know create for others like I think his world is such a fascinating open world of possibility because yeah there's there's just nothing in his game where it feels like is truly impossible that that matters to be good the buy-in aspect of it and the moldability aspect of it because how many times did this conversation around Deandre and center around yeah he wants a bigger role or he's not willing to do the dirty work the things that actually the team needs him to do like it was a big point of contention between and mmony Williams that led to kind of their falling out so that matters and maintaining that as he gets better and becomes a bigger focal point of the team if he gets to that point that will definitely make a big difference I think how do you feel we're talking about things that can

1:11:49improve at how do you feel about his rebounding because it's interesting because like I do think his rebounding was sort of a point of contention for sons fans in this last year and you look at the per 36 as far as his rebounding goes and it's like 11 what is it 11.6 per 36 and so much of that is offensive rebounding and maybe that's the trouble it's his defensive rebounding it's sort of somewhere that he can get better I don't know what do you think Gerald and Sam I want to hear from you too yeah I think he is an elite offensive rebounder like both of the rookies were despite getting more limited minutes if you look at their offensive rebounding percentage and what not from kind of that post all-star break they were both like leading the team by a mile and Mark Williams is really good in that respect as well so that that means something but I think yeah defensive rebounding is where he needs to grow because that's the more physical side of it as a rebounder I think I think as an offensive rebounder you can kind of you know crash

1:12:52if you're on the perimeter or if you're a big man like he is you're kind of usually hanging out in the paint or somewhere or closer to the rim so that's automatically going to improve your chances if you're playing for a coach that wants you to crash every time down the floor defensively I think he still needs to get a little bit stronger which he obviously will he's super young it was only his first year in the NBA take some time to put on that type of muscle and adjust to the strength of the game but you know we saw even in summer league like that post up that he had on I think it was young Hanson where he like threw it into the rim off the backboard but it wasn't pretty because he like couldn't no carve out his space that's the type of thing that speaks to the defensive rebounding for me in terms of like you're gonna have to bang bodies and do it with a higher volume of minutes you're gonna have to get a lot stronger your conditioning is gonna have to be better do we know what young Hanson weighs by the way he's got to be like do you see here he's a maybe less he's a pretty high body fat guy as far as NBA prospects go let's just put it like that

1:13:55right right but I yeah I think defensively is where he's gonna have to improve and I think if he does and you know it looked a little bit better in summer league this is a guy who could be averaging like 14 boards a game if he's playing starters minutes a year or two from now what do you think Sam I mean yeah so like his defensive rebounding definitely doesn't need to improve and is definitely I think below average for a seven foot three NBA player but like you know compared to just the fact that you're saying he still grab 12 rebounds per 36 he grabbed 13 rebounds a game in summer league like there's an obvious leveling up that happens when you trade up from Osso G'daro at the five who try as hard as he possibly can there's just like a cap of like eight or nine rebounds probably per 36 for Osso that doesn't exist for Molo watch I agree with Gerald he's gonna get stronger and I think he's gonna get better at this stat I'm not I'm not too worried about it as far as things go

1:14:57yeah I feel the same way I think on defense I think that's that's kind of where I want to see the most growth like it's it's actually interesting when you look at his impacting college he actually had a higher impact on the offensive rating at Duke than he did on the defensive rating or it sort of flipped in the NBA where his his impact was immediately defensive and I do think you know Duke had a lot of playmaking so I you know just a vertical threat in college probably just had a large impact on the offensive side of the floor just being who he is but in the NBA his impact needs to be defensive first and it was last year and we just need to see that continue and then likely improve and I do think there's like an automatic he's gonna be a pretty good drop defender because he's huge and he can move his feet pretty well and that's in there but as a center in the NBA you have to be good at drop defense you have to be good at post defense you have to be good at switching occasionally you have to be good at playing up the level of the screen there's just a lot to manage and and build that and grow at in the NBA and it does take some time you you know it's impossible to

1:16:01have a conversation about a young center in the NBA with you know for a son's fan without bringing up Deandre and again but we saw the development for Deandre and defensively took a few seasons as well I think there's physical tools that are better there for come on mullowatch just in his length and size overall that benefit him and then there's some that benefit of Deandre and too with his explosiveness and his ability to move his feet a little bit but with come on I'd like to see that this year I'd like to see some improvement I'd like to see some versatility I'd like to see them test those limits and maybe some of it doesn't work and some of it does because even if he's only good at two of those things that's still a pretty good defender because being a dropped defender in the NBA can lead to a pretty good defense right away so that's kind of where I'm like going to be focused this year that the offense is sort of a plus no matter what with him because I talk about like him I compare him to Rudy go bear a lot because that's what I want him to be defensively obviously hey can he turn into the best centered defensively in the NBA that's what I want obviously I'm a son's fan first and foremost I want him to be that good the offense has potential to be better than

1:17:03Rudy go bear like this year because go bears never been great on offense but that's just to me that's just a plus that's a benefit that's why he might be the savior of the sons as we you know started this segment talking about him with but the defense is where I really want to see him shine this year and just be great on that end of the floor and that includes the rebounding and if you could do those things he's to me there will be a conversation about the amount of minutes he's getting either he will be getting enough for how well he's playing or maybe we're going to be talking about how he should play more you know by January on this podcast and Gerald on sons after dark but where do you think his improvement can come as early as next year Joe yeah I want I want him to leave no doubt in terms of the room protection the shot blocking the rim finishing is something that I do think he can and should improve that because like we've been talking about it's harder to even at the rim it's harder to string together games when your minutes are fluctuating the way that they are but on the bball index 44th percentile

1:18:05rim finishing on cleaning the glass 16th percentile at his position so like I think he shot 65 or 66 percent at the rim that can be a lot higher for a guy with his size and and tools so I'm looking forward to that just even like 34 35 percent three point shooting in year one for me would be a win you know you mentioned the the Rudy go bear the offensive side of the comparison like the first three-pointer that come on may model watch makes next season will be more than go bear has made his entire career so like I and I think that's a dynamic thing that opens up the floor for the sun's team because I do have a question for you both come on model watch has a chance to be the what best three point shooter on this team on what a depressing question uh you're saying that's a really funny question you're saying just this upcoming season just this upcoming season just a chance of percentage yeah and just for centers of okay yeah okay because like Jalen greens

1:19:08of better three point shooter than mallow watch but like Jalen greens gonna take a bunch of dumb threes and then right finish 34 percent yeah yeah um that's hard I mean he could be better than devon booker too I mean devon booker was pretty bad this last year so he will first sure finish below I mean the two guys who are a lock to shoot 40 percent or 40 ish are Gillespie and canard we know that yeah quite interesting yeah yeah yeah yeah I want to say Rishir will be higher than him I don't I wouldn't guarantee you don't I wouldn't guarantee it I want to say Miles Breit uh fuck I don't know what it what it could be third he could be best my head on top 35 percent good one was good good one was good what a Dylan Brooks shoot last year like 32 it was like yeah it was bad but he's had better years deal in 34 he shot 34 last year it's just without the without any playmaking like it's hard to expect Dylan Brooks to have another season like that like yeah

1:20:11it's tough but but yeah I mean Jordan Goodwin shot 37 last year so and 38 the year before in L.A. so I think Jordan Goodwin is on a track where he probably will be better too so basically our expectation of command and year two is offensively we're asking him to be Carl Anthony Towns and defensively we're asking him to be Rudy Gobeer and I think that's too much to ask I don't understand everything else will fall into place I just it feels fine to me I feel as a appropriate to me yeah what do you think Sam oh there's a chance he's like the fourth or fifth yeah I don't think that's crazy to say but it's not it's just it's just tough because like the three point shooting for all bigs is theoretical until it happens I still suspect that Mark Williams can shoot them and you might have to this year because he can also shoot free throws uh I it in a in a last ditch bid to save his starting center spot by like December 15th we might see Mark Williams chucking threes just to prove to Jordan not that he can also space the floor um but yeah

1:21:14what what what was your question Mike to me uh it's just about where you think he could improve this coming season uh well okay so like yeah outside of the shooting and and defensive impact and stuff I mean I don't expect command to be a true initiator I think he needs to lock in on being a finisher right we know that his handle right now is very bad however a little bit more confidence just playing out of the short roll he finished with six assists 25 turnovers last year and honestly not even that pad in terms of the total number of turnovers there I think you would have expected him to have more but we know where he gets into trouble like there are different types of turnovers increasingly I think we saw fewer and fewer offensive fouls as the season went on out of model watch so that was good I also think that he has pretty good hands for a guy of his colossal massive size he can catch labs he can catch bounce passes you know like I don't think the ball was just sailing off of his foot and going out of bounds all the time where most of the turnovers

1:22:17were coming from is if he had to dribble because as soon as he has to bring the ball down and dribble then you know obviously he's he's going to be in a lot of trouble and and that's where like you know I'm joking about all these players that he can or can't be you know joe l and bead right now he is not in terms of his ability to just take the ball and like go out a go out of guy maybe as the will to do it but he doesn't have the talent in terms of his handle he does need to be able to just make the simple read if Devon bookers getting trapped in molo watch is playing he's played a short roll make a simple read simple pass not bring the ball down not turn it over I don't I don't think more than a one to one assist to turn over ratio is even reasonable to expect out of him in year two I just know that it can't be what is a six assist to 25 turnovers a zero point to five ratio it needs to be higher than that we need some evidence that he can contribute to pass like making the simple decision and like allowing the sons to benefit when they have a man advantage because of

1:23:18a trap at the top of the key if you can't do that then offensively they're going to be in trouble because that means you know like he can really only finish at the rim yeah yeah I agree with I agree with all those points I think it's it's kind of interesting because it's actually kind of tough to predict what he will improve that it's just we didn't have a lot of minutes from him but he did improve a lot from the beginning of the season to the end of the season which is a credit to him and you know whether or not some people like to hear the credit to the coaching staff too that he was dramatically improved from where he looked at the beginning of the year but yeah the big thing and I'm glad you mentioned it again Sam the turnovers is how he stays on the court if he doesn't turn the ball over that's how he stays on the court and if he turns the ball over a lot he's not going to get minutes regardless of what he's good at outside of that because again to see can't afford to give up possessions anymore than they already did because their whole team is built on maximizing the possessions that they have compared to the other team right he had

1:24:192.2 turnovers per 36 which in total volume really is not much for a center no not bad but they didn't pass the ball much either though yeah that's exactly that's what I'm saying so it was like it was like they didn't he had a low turnover volume because they didn't trust him with the ball they need to be able to trust him with the ball just a little bit more yeah like even something as simple as dribbling from one side of the top of the key to the other to initiate a dribble handoff yeah yeah just be it yeah 100% be at the top of the key and be able to initiate a delay action and then make strong contact contact on the screen and roll it like that's something that he struggled with in year one and so that's the sort of stuff that that needs to get better I'm not even necessarily talking about him yeah I'm not even necessarily talking about him like you know pounding the ball in the post and like dribbling five or six times because I think all of us understand that right now for Moloatch that is probably an automatic either turnover or just botched layout yeah yeah

1:25:20yeah but he had a backboard against Ying Hanson yeah I mean like he can catch it and like on the roll like a step out of the restricted area though in a way that I feel pretty confident with because he's just gonna go at the rim and not be afraid of getting fouled which is kind of nice it doesn't have to be right right right at the rim Mitch Robinson style like I do think he can catch it a little further away and just go into the contact and try to get fouled and he's probably gonna get fouled a lot which is good to see I'm I'm very excited but I'm very confident in what he can be but I'm not sure how could he can be this coming year that's that's just where I'm at I don't know Joe what do you think yeah I I'm honestly I might be a little more optimistic I'm expecting big things from him this year I I want him to play 15 to 20 minutes a night I think he can get there even with the crowded center rotation I think there will be some nights where oh so is just the better option because the situation calls for a little bit more switchability a little more mobility maybe a little more playmaking because we know oh so is unique compared to the other two centers in

1:26:21that regard but I do I I think he's gonna be I think he's gonna carry forward the momentum from summer league he's not gonna be that head and shoulders above the competition dominant in the NBA in year two but I think he's gonna give them some good minutes off the bench I hope that he kind of establishes himself as like a brick wall when it comes to being a screener and like Sam said you need him to be able to function on that short roll he can't like short circuit like Deandre and Wood where it was either I'm gonna pull up for a mini or I'm going to not dribble to the rim because I don't know what to do with the ball because because I played eight hours of video games last night yeah he moved he moves like a 2k character in real life like he deontraing 100% yeah 100% meanwhile Mala watch the event the the inherent advantage that Mala watch has over Fleming 2 we're talking about like how vocal he is he's gonna go in training camp and am I wrong to say he's gonna be the most vocal on day one of training camp of the three centers and

1:27:21Jordan not should appreciate that yeah he might pick Jordan not up himself and dunk him in the basket if that's him minutes on opening night he's speaking he's speaking somebody to coach on the fridge because he wasn't given come on Mala watch enough minutes speaking of which Gerald do you think like if you add to bet right now do you think come on Mala watch touches the floor opening night oh man who are they playing opening night by the way I should know this yeah so oh I honestly it's a Detroit or is that preseason it's preseason I believe the first game is Portland in Portland that's right October 21st against Portland they might need his size because Donovan Klingin has clowned them last year like he embarrassed them including in games where come on Mala watch played by the way right because I was that one in person and it was brutal yeah so I think he'll play open eight opening night maybe I'm cheating a little bit it's just for that specific reason they need a little bit of a seven foot three dude out there but I just know that if we get like 10 games into

1:28:26the season and he's played like you know just garbage time I think people are already gonna be rioting if I was the coach this probably won't be a surprise to anyone here I would just start also and not play Mark Williams at all you know I that's just where also is the best center of three right now he is too small don't get me wrong but like there he is the best center of the three and Mark Williams was not a good defender last year and is probably not part of the future of this team so I'm just not really sure I understand that that's probably not great for Mark Williams's trade value like the ideal scenarios you play Mark Williams for you know October November December and then you trade him in January and and try to maximize his value but is that the best for the team I'm not really sure and maybe it is actually maybe there's a world where you can make the case that's the best for the team yeah Mark Williams either has to be like leave no doubt undisputed best center or you've got to find a way to boost his trade value to trade him because that that was the whole point of reciting him to that contract they wanted him back but they did not want him to a

1:29:30big multi-year deal that was going to obstruct come on model watch for this very reason so I'm hopeful that this awkward obstruction in his way is only for as long as come on model watch is not ready to seize that mantle and if he's ready to seize that mantle by November December January you better hope that Mark Williams has played enough to get you something in return yeah yeah I mean he's on a he's on a really reasonable deal in my opinion you know three years maybe a little bit too long maybe I would have tried to sign him for two but I get it with Mark Williams I get why they brought him back they didn't want to be left with nothing uh but yeah it's going to be an awkward situation that looms over the roster all season long if come on is good let's uh let's do a little exercise here that I teased earlier if we were to rank the potential ceiling of every young player on the sons and we're going to include co-opete here I think we all agree come on model watch is number one right so are are we counting the two guys we talked about last

1:30:31week the two guys this week and co-opete exactly there's five just those five okay who's number two mullwatch is one we're talking ceiling yeah it's probably not co-opete yeah it's number two's probably co-opete because he's got the the highest the best scoring chops of the rest of the five right yeah I would agree it's just it's kind of interesting and maybe a little sad that we're already doing that like we have guys that have two seasons under their belt and we're still you know putting the other guy um I don't know maybe it's also I think it also has like one of the highest floors yeah I have also also definitively has the highest floor wow yeah I think also I might have the highest floor two come on as it's really high floor two no but I think also as our super high floor also ceiling I would still probably put him behind Rashir honestly because I think you look at Rashir's skill set and you see a lot of starting caliber attributes and with also it's I think

1:31:37it's a lot more challenging to see a path for him where he's consistently starting caliber and NBA because he's so undersized at center it would be a lot easier a power for it if he could shoot it all but that's such an uphill battle with him so also it's got such a high floor but I think he's like number four in ceiling honestly yeah unless he grows like three inches or whips out a jump shot that like you said Mike they've been threatening us with yeah yeah I can't move him higher than that I don't think yeah it's fair okay so we're saying then we're sort of falling into a ranking of and we're agreeing I think come on coa Rashir oh so and then Ryan and we're definitive on Ryan being last year that would be my instinct yes I think I think I would quibble with oh so they're a little bit but I'm also not like I don't feel ultra confident in that in that in that what was your oh so it's really good I don't know what did you say for oh so ceiling when we talked about it last week you said Ben Straymond I know I just like it was a question more I

1:32:38really don't know what is ceiling is like I think it's one of the hardest questions to really talk about because I don't know I really don't know like on the on the right team I think he could start but yeah really good fit it's like a more athletic Boris DL without a shot or like a hybrid Boris DL dream on green type like yeah coming off your bench like I we got a comment on this on on the podcast someone mentioned another name that fuck I already can't remember which I feel bad about was it that young no I mentioned that young on the pod I would still stick by that I think that's a decent comp for oh so but fat young could shoot threes and oh so probably probably will never be able to right yeah I don't know I did take that young a number of years to get there though I will say that like I'm pretty sure it took him a number of years until he was like even 35 36% yeah maybe there's hope it's it's interesting because like you know people were talking about in our comments to what he was doing in high school and like how his jump shot broke somewhere between high school and now and and who knows maybe there's something there but that would be sort of

1:33:42a miracle I think at this point what we're asking for something unprecedented if all of a sudden oh so it has a three point shot but my god if you have a jump shot yet like a free throw shot like we kind of need the free throw first like let's get there first and then and then we can talk about everything else but the good news about the two guys we talked about today when they play the sons are better and when they play together sons are really good and that was a good sign now that includes garbage time and all that so we'll see if that actually translate in the coming years but I'm excited to watch both of these guys even with the little amount of data that we had to talk about it we still got a long conversation here Gerald thank you so much for joining us today make sure to not only listen to sons after dark but subscribe to Gerald's patreon it's really important for him and make sure to go to his just go to patreon search sons after dark it's pretty easy to find Gerald is there anything else you want to talk about no not at all thank you guys so much for having me on I'm glad I got to hop on for the yearly internal development segment

1:34:46and hopefully we'll have another one next year because the picks are gonna start running dry that we'll talk about co-peat next year I think yeah Gerald I'm not letting you get off that easy about nothing else you want to talk about what is your movie your most looking forward to between now and December 31st oh man that's we're talking to a guy this guy he watches everything so I do it's got to be dune part three by default for me yeah like I am excited for dune's day even though I think there's potential for it to be very bad I'm excited for that that new robber patenson joint yeah the prime time dude robber patenson I'm so excited Robert patenson has just been on a fucking heater bro he's like he's been on the dude he's still new dude yeah he's in dude too he's been on the command moloach summer league run like all yeah it's gotta be due no I think that that for me is kind of the only movie that I think could challenge the Odyssey as like the movie event of the year good stuff thank you Gerald for joining us

1:35:49thank you so much it's good talk to you guys