Inside the Mind of a PGA Coach: Player Development, Feedback & Winning on Tour

0:00New episodes of the Birdie Golf Club Podcast are out every single Tuesday. Make sure to follow, subscribe, on whatever platform you're on to not miss an episode. This year, I've been the PGA tour. I'm the youngest and probably the worst coach out there, and that's completely fine. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Birdie Golf Club Podcast. I've lost count. I think we're at like 62 at this point, episode 62. This week, I wanted to just try something and get straight into this week's episode, whatever little chat afterwards about what happened this weekend. But joining us today is a really remarkable guest. A very young age, really, is not only a challenge tour, DP World Tour, but now also a PGA tour coach. And he's going to share his insights how he got there in this journey and the pleasure of the players he's been able to work with along the way. It's a very

1:04humble guy, and I think you're really going to enjoy the conversation as we talk about all things, what it means to be a coach at that level. So please enjoy this week's episode with Alex Buckner. I've smacked that record button because I know what will happen otherwise. We'll get into all the good stuff and sort of not want to have to retell it when we're actually on the pod. Alex, thank you for coming on. When I messaged you, as always, when I send out some of these messages, I just think that guy is going to be so busy, he's going to see that request and go, thank you, but no, thank you. So I appreciate you coming on. No, that's fine. I mean, I'll try and pride myself in at least getting back to everyone. Don't go to bed without an notification being solved or done. So yeah, glad we can make this work. I love that. That's a little bit of psychology coming in to play,

2:04probably early doors there. That gets us into your psyche, I think, quite early. What I was going to ask you to start off the pod, Alex, is how did you get to where you are now? Because I went on to the website, onto your website. And it said that you were the youngest PGA sort of, I don't even know the terminology. It would be correct, but PGA qualified. Yeah, it's a fellow member just read by, yeah, for higher status. So we'll see what that comes back with. But yeah, it's like the BGA have like grades on of a specialist coach or whatever. It's a load of nonsense, to be honest, but I guess I'm the youngest person to at least rise up the ranks to that particular rank. But yeah, I mean, how long you got? A while, I a while. But obviously, like anyone wanted to be a professional golfer,

3:10started a little bit too late, didn't have the funds to sort of continue with professional golfe, and and then went to work and everything sort of took a big bit of a turn. Like most people with their lives, they have to dive that to some sort of different career. So I sort of put all my eggs in one basket and thought, look, I'm going to do say on that, at least enjoy another's golf, done my PGA qualification. And luckily, I could apply on my birthday when I was 18. So the qualification of the PGA starts on October 1st. That's exactly what my birthday is. So I can't really do it any early if you tried, which is great. And I sort of went down that road of just doing my three years and did that, got to the end of it. And I was quite fortunate to work in quite a lot of like nice clubs. And the PGA, the way they sort of like

4:13push you towards as being a head pro, that's the correct route to go down is to do your shop hours and be a head pro. And so I sort of like took that road. And as much as I went down that road, not very long to be honest, but at least put my head in the right place and got the qualifications to do that to a good level. I realized you're waiting for someone to pass or these jobs don't take you seriously into your 35 and above. So I then had to take another turn. Okay, so it's not professional golf. It's not being head pro somewhere. What else do I do? So I dive into coaching and because I started to realise that it's one way of making money without necessarily having a higher job role that someone has to employ you. There's some control in that as well as then there's not really an age bracket when you get hired to be a coach

5:14as opposed to hired to run a golf club. So the way I sort of looked at it was I could do this a bit quicker and it's all within my control of if I'm really good and I try my best at being really good at it, then despite my age, I can then possibly do something with it and you sort of fast forward that mentality to now. I've been fortunate enough to do a lot of things that haven't been done before the age of 30. So yeah, pretty pretty proud of that in a lot of ways. Yeah, I mean, looking through your sort of CV as it is almost on your website of the sort of different levels that you've kind of worked your way up and up and through. What did those sort of stages of quality of golf, let's say, from the people that you were teaching? Did that in itself almost structure who you are as a coach now or did your principles always carry

6:16through? No, I've been definitely running before I can walk in pretty much the past six, seven years. Yeah, like I can't believe the stuff that I've managed to run myself into and try and keep up. There's like a sentence episode of how you're learning how to play the piano and then giving piano lessons the day after someone. It feels a little bit like that sometimes at the best of times, but in all honesty, COVID really helped. I was able to do, I mean, how long were in COVID for like a year and a half? Too long, something like that. Way too long. But it was great. My wife was working remotely and basically I just work the same hours as her. And most people, when it comes to like bettering themselves or researching or organizing that to be able to give in a structured way, they're doing it in their spare time after 10 hours of working, after doing, it's like a side hustle isn't it, right? But I had a year and a half of every single

7:22day to do this. And I felt like I skipped 10 years of my coaching experience, I guess. In that time frame, when that all happened, I sort of came at the other end of COVID. I was quite clear in how I don't know if something clicked in that in that time. And I figured out then what that, you know, what X, Y, Z does, how to then deliver it really well, how to then make players better. And then I started getting some good players through, then I started then getting local PGA froze through. And then I had my, I guess, big shot with a challenge to a player, which was Richard Munsell. And he then really, really progressed, not necessarily down to me at all. It was down to his collective team, you had a really good caddy, a really good swing coach, they still with Liam, and collectively as a team, I was just lucky enough to piggyback on on their ride to a point,

8:26as well as then, you know, I felt like we did some really good work as well. And he just propelled, got through challenge tour with one of them cards for DP, and then had a good couple of seasons on DP. And then it sort of then progressed from there. Right. And did you find, obviously, that then sort of elevated people's view of you as well, like in the industry, because you said PGA back to which is obviously what a coach is always going to say, a good coach is always going to say about their student and essentially, but clearly there was something that you were doing that you thought, okay, I can now not replicate, but at least maybe do those same things again and work with someone new, but transfer the skills that I've got onto that player. And they're different nuances that they have. I'm guessing that people saw that in you and one specific person and their team in Marko Penge as well. Yeah, it's happened. The good news about that is as much as I

9:30self-doubt myself and say, as much as I piggyback or got lucky, X-Wine's at times. And I helped Piccardo go there, graduate from challenge short to DP, helped Daniel Hillier from challenge short to DP, as well as his first maiden win on DP, being part of his team, helped Marko Penge in his team graduate from challenge short DP. Yes, I've taken more responsibilities in his golf game as a recent more in its full swing now, but back then it was still a short game. So I managed to do it with quite a few different players and even like majors, like I've done quite, you know, I want to say nine majors now with nine different people. So I'm starting to get to a point where it's like, right, well, it's not just a one trick, apparently. I've got lucky once, been able to do a few times with a few different people, but I've managed to mold my system around the individual who I've got in front of me to improve.

10:35And I'll be the first one to admit the fact that I've got it wrong. And I've been better because of it. So I enjoy learning on my feet, I enjoy running before I can walk, it's not been great for my hairline, but it's as a result I've got, I guess, better quicker as a result of the environments I keep stupidly put myself into. Yeah, I mean, it must be pretty dawn, especially when you're looking maybe at your peers, at these places when they're coaching and they've probably got X amount of years of experience on you and stuff like that. Do you ever, because obviously you're very, you're very humble in the way you're putting things across, but there must be that, that, you know, confidence there to be able to do what you're doing, especially when you look at the guys that you're competing against, maybe, I guess that's the way I put it. I mean, yes and no, I guess I'm like stupid enough,

11:38might be one way to claim it, but I'm quite black and white. So anything I say is somewhat said with some sort of conviction, I guess being monotone helps at the best times, but everything I say, it comes from some deep inner like that's fact, and I believe in that, but at the same time, I'll be the first to admit the fact that I don't know anything, because I haven't coached long enough, you know, so like how some people plan to know this or plan to know that, and regarding them like peers, like yes, they're a lot older than me, and therefore they know a lot more than me, and I admit to myself, like that's completely fine, like all I want to do is as good as them at their age, you know, like I'm aware every single, I guess, new pool that I sort of enter, I mean obviously this year being the PGA tour, I'm the youngest and probably the worst coach out there, and that's completely fine.

12:46I'm going to, and everyone that I compare myself to all up to, it's going to be a case of can I be better than at their age and can I learn as much as I can from, and it's not an inner confidence, it's more of a, just a complete honest open opinion to, on the worst here, so let's just be an open look. That's amazing. It's such a great attitude to enter it with, because, you know, I'm guessing the players that you're working with, you know, Marco specifically doesn't believe that, you know, Marco puts a lot of faith in you and your coaching ability, but the fact that you've got that, you're willing to be a sponge in that environment and learn from those around you is like a, is like a pretty awesome trait to have. What would you say is like without giving, without giving your secrets away in many ways, what would you say are like the fundamental principles that you have as a coach? What I mean by that is, you know, do you, are you someone that focuses solely on swing?

13:50Do you focus on course management? What's your, what's your fundamentals? Fundamentals is actually looking at everything from me. I like the term of 1% gains, you know, that's a typical thing. There's like a really good story about the British cycling team, about how they look at every single department and improve each department as, as even if it means cleaning the band, you know, wants more a week to make sure, you know, the cyclists don't get ill, you know, like I would say I'm detailed and organised as a result of being that way inclined, so I would like to think that for that I'm a very good stats analyzer, I'm very holistic, I look at training a lot, I feel like my principle on how to then get better at the skills of the game and how that transfers to performance is different, but makes sense in my mind and I've

14:52seen it work, which is great. From a technical aspect, I like to call myself a component coach, I guess the trendy word would be a match-up coach, trying to understand a player's nuances and trying to fit the piece that allows them to do what they are intentionally doing and seeing and being able to then create a calibration of training warm-ups, whatever it might be, to keep them within a corridor to allow them to be functional while then improving the skill assets of what needs to be improved that we can then see from the data, so like a lot of last season, so I go into a little bit of that story would be like making sure the fact that we are hitting a ball flight that we like for Marco, this is what I'm talking about, a ball flight that he likes, how to therefore keep within that and then what are the skills that needs to get better at,

15:54is it flight control, is it curvature control, is it distance, is it trajectory control, is it reading lies, is it adapting to wind, is it caddy and player process, is it physical, is it injury prevention, and the truth to be told is it's all of them, so how therefore do you approve each thing, how do you improve alignment on the golf course, and I'll look into a lot of details like that, and I think all them little details put together allow someone to be better at the game, because ultimately the way I see it is that we're playing a game and the functionality or the swing is can you can you do it, doesn't mean you're any good at it, the analogies always use this like if I could kick a ball with the best technique, do I become a Christian or an Audi, or if I could lift a weight with perfect technique, do I become Arnold Schwarzenegger, and everyone looks at you goes well yeah, of course you don't, so why would we think the same

16:57as in golf, I had no idea, yeah, so yeah I guess that's my philosophy, well, rambled that for a bit, but no, there was a brief moment where I think like everyone was probably envisioning the Phil Mickelson meme of him in the leather jackets all going about, I used that video a lot, yeah I know exactly the one, I showed that maybe at least once every few months, yeah I just got that look at his eye where he's just gone to another place, you know you're just fully in his head, but I like that because that I mean what caught my eye especially on you was I'd seen throughout like Marcos, yeah him have these humongous documents, which would I mean could you could you go into a little bit of that because for the average golfer, you know trying to fill out you know a binder with stuff about their game seems seems like it would be impossible,

17:58you know you can do a page maybe, but Marcos having multiple sort of versions of these, was it after every tournament and what was in there I'm guessing pretty much along the lines of what we just spoke about, yeah correct, yeah so remember Paul Casey told me on, it was actually on a podcast I believe, but he said like that's a light bikini, they show you a lot but don't show you everything, he's right and he was very very stats like don't believe in stats because they don't make any sense because there's no context, I remember him saying that thinking you're dead right Paul, like they're rubbish, but then I thought no stats are actually great, but what they're missing is the feedback you just need to combine them, so at the beginning of the season it's always a great part of the season in my opinion is when you get to strip everything back and be like what actually needs to be better, and look at everything like I said, you then figure out plans of

19:02improvement for each thing and then create systems in how to run a week at home regarding practice, how do you then turn up to a tournament, how do you prepare for a tournament, what should Jim routines, what's your warm up routines, what's your timings, what are you practicing, why, when do you play your practice rounds, blah blah blah blah, and you get these systems all in place of a bit like a business right, you set up a business, what time are you opening, what time are you closing, let's say it's a bakery business, what time, what food are you allocating this year, what are you baking, what are the ingredients, how long do you cook them for, how long they rest for what time do you display them out, so think of golf like a business as the way I like to see it, is what is your golf business, so like to get, figure that out with players, what is the business to begin with, so that's the first part of the document, figure it all with them things out,

20:04get to the end of that, and then it's like right, we're going to then run you through your systems to see how you yell on with them, do you know them inside that or before then you get to a tournament, so done all that, got some feedback on them parts and then right we're in tournament right now, so tournament days you look at it and go right well this is my plan, this is how I'm going to do it and like you're just running through your systems, you don't play the tournament, everything happens, doesn't really matter what happens, you're just gaining context, so it's a bit like again opening your business up gets the end of the week, how much profit or loss did you make, doesn't really matter at this stage because you're just trying to figure out are we heading the right direction, the wrong direction, whatever it might be, just taking stock, taking stock exactly, that's the way I like to see it, so get to the end of the week, you've got a result, you've got stats, and then you have then feedback, and the feedback is,

21:04what went well, what didn't go so well, is there anything to take note on, and the feedback should be based upon off the tee approach play around the green putting, should also be on physicality, tacticality, and mental game runs, so you get one week of that, you go to the next event, you do the same, go next event, do the same, go next event, do the same, now let's say you do a free week stint, you've got three weeks worth of stats, you've got three weeks worth of feedback, and then you've run your systems for free weeks, other results better or worse, what sort of feedback you have, and then you do a mini review of, okay, is our business plan working, and you might turn around and go, yes, it's working, that's all great, or you might turn around and go, that needs change, and that needs change, and that was a crap idea, whatever that might be, okay, we'll change them things around, but we'll keep all the other stuff, they're saying,

22:05and then we'll go again, and then your free weeks game, free weeks game, and what you saw there was just the process of the plan, being repeated and reviewed over the course of the year, and it really is that simple, and if I'm not, it's not that simple, I'm not, but if a golfer was to do, you play around, you take some notes, you do some stats, and look, there might be like a double bogey you made on the golf course, and it was because you tried to hit a shot shake, you can't hit, for example, and then by the end of you've played for a month, and you've realized you've tried to do that four times, and it's cost you seven shots, or whatever it might be, like the easy win is to just not play that goal shot and stop being an idiot, and you save seven shots, or can you learn how to play that shot, and go and see a golf gauge,

23:07that a lot of people will ask me, when's the next summer should come and book a lesson with you? Well, when you've had enough feedback and you've got a question that you can't answer, that's the right time, all right, the way I would look at myself is I'm here to clarify understanding and give you answers to questions, and I don't think a lot of golfers play rounds and come off with questions, they just go, hit a great say, I hit a bad say, and then they wonder why, well, not really any better, because if not really put a plan in place, not trying to really improve anything, you're just basing stuff on whether you're functional or not, if you swung it the way you want to, and that's not quite how you get better at a game, but it is possibly better at how can you hit the ball, you know, more times well than not?

24:07Yeah, I think it's interesting to be out that point, because I wonder, is there any moments where for two weeks the plan wasn't working, but then for the next two, it just flipped, and suddenly it was like, right, the thing that we thought was a problem for two weeks, and we thought we were going to have to change at the end of this, you know, month-long feedback session, is actually now, it's sorted itself, was there occasions of that? You know what, luckily, no, I'm sure there will be, that's a stressful one, right, if that comes up. Yeah, yeah, for sure, I remember the first stage all there, of last year, he was on a ban, and then he came to Kenya, and there was like some good signs of some stuff worked, some stuff nowhere near, but it was a good first event back, and then he came third, probably should have won to be honest, but they cut off the last round, still believed this day would have won it,

25:11if he got that last round under his belt, the place was soaked and there, it's called off the last day, and then he played quite well again the week after, so had a little break, nothing really to change, and then he played pretty poorly the two weeks after that, and that was a real good moment where it was a bit like, right, could have panicked, could have been like, right, things ain't good enough, I know the rest of it, but he was not very well in himself in India, down to Delhi Valley, there was some caddy, and player conversations that tactically could have been a bit better, and from the skill element, and his wedge play was really, really poor on spinny grins, especially in the Singapore, and it was a bit like, well, we're working on that skill, you're just not very good at it yet, could have only really done it for best part of four or five weeks, so it was like, let's just hold firm and do the same things,

26:14but you don't own it yet, keep getting better at it, and then it started to all click a little bit after that, and it will probably be the first person to say, you can still get better, but my god, he's moved a long way compared to where he was to how good he is at that skill now, there's a great, I think it's an Austrian saying, is Let It's Jew, I heard from an Austrian coach, so that if in doubt Let It's Jew, and it was just one of the moments where it's a bit like, if you believe in what you're working on, and that's going to improve your don't panic, you just simply need to keep doing it for longer, yeah, yeah, absolutely, do you think that's like one thing you see, maybe with amateur level golfers, where they just, they'll start learning a new skill, but then because of that, like you said, that feedback, they'll get that immediate feedback, which may be negative, they might have a negative experience, and they'll just give up on

27:16it, because I can't afford to do that again, whereas if they just kept on persevering with something doing it correctly, obviously, not poorly, hopefully, there would be that sort of feedback that you were talking about, of that longer term feedback, which then at least they would see the direction they need to go in next, or is that more nuanced for the professional elite level golf? I reckon there's two sides to the coin to that, so, again, back to Paul Casey for a minute, and I remember when I was playing golf as a kid, I remember getting some coaching a little bit later on, and it didn't serve me too well, but whatever that coach told me, and I couldn't do, I very much blame myself, and was like, well, I can't do it, but it is the right info, because I've got it from the coach, so I'm going to work my ass off to make it work, and so that didn't serve me well at all, and I remember asking Paul, because obviously in his

28:21college days, information was even worse, and there was no evidence to anything, but then other technology and more, and the coaching status was way worse than it is now, so I said, how do you know what information to take on or not take on at that point? So it was quite simple, I gave 10 shots, and I even felt like, okay, yeah, that was different, well that was good, or if it felt horrendous and everything was all rubbish, and there was no evidence that it was better, then I just stopped doing it, and we have the sixth sense of knowing whether we can or can't do something, you know, or if that's going to be better or not, and I think we've got to listen to that, and the coach's job is generally, we can pivot around stuff like that, if you shut one door, we can open another door, because we've got loads of ways out to make a goal swing work, and so are there so many of them, let give us the feedback to allow us to then give you

29:22the right info, you know, is my belief, like the best players are the most stubborn sometimes, they know that ain't it, is there another way of doing it? Yeah, no problem at all, let's do it this way, oh yeah, that's way better, now wouldn't have shortcuted to that answer if it wasn't for their feedback, but at the same time, comfort is then the other part to it, right, so let's say there's a chip shot that definitely requires you to hit it soft and high, there's just no way around and you're going to have to take this on, you've learned how to do it, but you've got to do it in club champs, don't revert, don't revert to comfort, like, because you're not going to now get better, you know, it's not going to be the last club championship you ever played, it's not going to be the last competition you ever played, and if you're not going to do it now, you're never going to bloody do it, and that's where the professional is better, they don't mind mucking up and making

30:26a mistake or the potential of looking like a fool for the sake of that moment and time, and well, the good ones anyway, in my opinion, because they're so focused on getting better long term as opposed to not looking silly short term. Yeah, was there an example of that with Marco from like this last year, which obviously had been a great year, but yeah, every every week, if I'm on a really, everywhere. I'm cold, you're cold, winter golf is very much here, so there's dream of a better place, or even better than dream, let's go to a better place. If you use code birdie double points and golf escapes, it will get you double escape points on your next trip, and you can book a trip, be away in the sunshine, enjoying the beautiful weather, the fantastic golf and beautiful amenities of some of their incredible hotels that they have listed, golf escapes will handle the whole thing, they'll set the entire package up, and you can enjoy

31:27every single moment without a worry. I used golf escapes to book my trip to East Sussex National recently for just a brief break, and everything was handled perfectly to my golfing, for the weekend, to my wife in joy and a beautiful spa treatment whilst I was out on course. Peace of mind, just a fantastic experience and a great team over at golf escapes. Head over there now, use code birdie double points to get yourself double escape points on your next trip. I cannot tell you how many shots he threw away down to, well, I'm working on that, so I'm going

32:34to try and do that, and there are plenty of times where it's paid dividends. We speak about in Denmark, he hit this eight iron from like one hundred and thirty yards, because the greens were it was back to front, and it was like super spinny, he describes it like the green was like pudding, and for him, you know, you can, you can advance an eight iron, 200 yards if he wants to, it's like to be able to cut down that short on an eight iron and hit it that soft and chippy to a flag to make sure that it doesn't rip off the green is completely unheard of for him, that he had to muck up since I guess Singapore, because that's when we had that like big moment of you need to get much better at this skill, and him messing up that shot plenty of times and plenty of different ways, made him comfortable enough to be able to pull it off on the final round in

33:38Denmark, yeah, it's a win, but you can't just assume you're going to be comfortable when be able to pull that shot off if you don't muck it up, we can wait before trying to get better at, you know, and it wasn't solely down to why he wasn't as good in the open, because there was a lot of elements to that, but like for him to be really good at an open championship, it is a skill that we're constantly working on to allow that to happen, so you've got to sacrifice feeling a little silly in order to have long-term improvements. Yeah, absolutely, I mean, would you say, because obviously everyone's aware of like Marco's speed, you know, you have to see, crushes the golf ball. Would you say that's like the biggest hurdle with these golf courses which call for the spin to be taken off quite a lot to just hold the ball and onto the green? Is that kind of been the biggest hurdle in his game to get over this year?

34:43Yeah, to a degree, to be able to control the ball with that speed, I guess, is a big one, but as always, swung it really, really big, hit it as hard as he could. Remember speaking to a lot of team members, and it was like, if he could hit fairways, if he could have a way to be able to hit certain shots, to be able to keep it in play, or to just hit fairways when it was tight or under pressure, to be able to move the ball, to be able to hit half shots, control his wedge play, and for someone that just used to swing it all out and belt it all the time. And it's quite a hurdle. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I bet. I mean, with the rest of his team, you speak of his team, are you the newest addition to sort of team pinch? Yeah, I am. Yes and no. So I helped with a short game like I did with a lot of people,

35:44beforehand, and then I'm trying to think of the year now. What will be 26? I want to say it was back end of 20, yeah, back end of 2023. I started helping a few guys on DP with their long game, and 2023. Trying to think now. Yeah, it was. Yeah, time has moved different since COVID. Yeah, so I'm just trying to think what you were. And yeah. And yeah, so I started helping a few people with their long games. So then spend the season of 2024, still doing quite a bit of long game, as well as in quite a bit of short game, but like various suppliers, then helping Mark over the short game. On and off, it wasn't like a very regular relationship, but when we were working together, it was quite regular. And yeah, we've got some really good points, and then we didn't spend as much time with each other, didn't work as well, but been doing that on and off for like four

36:49years. So I was known to a lot of the team. I've known Mark for a long time, could actually played off of them when I was like 15 or 16 at tournament. And I wasn't that involved, but when 2025 came around, and he wanted a new set of eyes, obviously, that the person that got elected, which was obviously thought incredibly fortunate enough to, you know, for that sort of belief in me to have a little luck, because you probably could have gone to most people, you know. So it was quite cool to have that opportunity and help, but it's a huge team effort. Like, come up, describe to you how much goes on behind the scene that allows a athlete to tick, and that goes for all of them. Working loads of teams as a short game consultant, at sometimes a bit more,

37:52but there's just tons of work from agents to ET's, to psychologists, to physios. Sometimes they're both saying people, caddies, wives, you name it like none of it can happen without any of them. Yeah, I think you see that now being addressed way more by players as well, don't you? Because whenever there's a win, it's a we rather than an eye, you know, which is, which is probably surprising to a lot of people, I think, because if you're just a casual viewer of the game, you're just seeing one person up there, maybe, you know, they're caddy and everything like that. But like you said, I mean, it's a proper team effort to keep these players. The crazy thing is about all these tools, where it's DP World Tour, Challenge Tour, PGA Tour, they always like year-long tours, aren't they? And a lot of sports players have to peak at certain times. And again,

38:54we've got the majors, obviously, we've got the four months of majors, five, if you include players. But at the same time, they've got to keep this level, and you look at the top end now, Scotty, I mean, he's maintaining that level for such a long period of time, and then straight back into it afterwards. There's no way these guys could do it on their own, is there? I mean, it would just be so hard. It's just so much part, so many parts of the business, like that'd be the way I would look at it. Yeah, yeah. Even stats and analyses, I guess they're financial consultants in the golf world, you know. You've good then got advisors, you've then got, like, so many people on the payroll, like Fitzpatrick, I want to say, don't quite me on this, but I want to say it's not like he's got 13 people on his payroll or something. That's the way. Yeah, just so much that goes into how they get all these people to help and run

40:00their business, and that's what it is. For the people that I am amazed how many people do get to a top level tour by just enjoying hitting a golf ball and liking the game, but they soon find out, once they're there, there's actually a lot more to this, and if I'm going to stay out here, I need to figure out how to run my golf business. Which is mad, isn't it? When you look at like, you got like Blades Brown now, like, 18 years. This is where, like, a lot behind the scene, you don't realize, like, for example, the Hoi Gods wins, like, and their parents are very, very involved in running their business. And Alex Fitzpatrick and Matt Fitzpatrick, both parents run their business really, really well, help them to run it, shall I say. Tom McGillen, is that, like, you know, it's such a big part of Hoi is, and the reason why it performs,

41:02that they're the people that are, I guess, you know, with a remote controller, allowing you to do that happen. And you think, well, it's just, you know, Tom McGillen, he's just a 21-year-old or even 20 maybe, it's just really good to go off. Now, like, there's so many things that I'll allow him to be good at golf, and they're put in place, and he hasn't necessarily put them in place. In this case, his dad's put them in the place. Now, most players don't have the fortune of that, but a lot of these young guys, the support network that they have, either down to being super talented when they're younger, or just having really good parents, that support them is, like, in my opinion, doesn't get talked about enough of why that's so good. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a fascinating insight for people, because he said a lot of the time, despite how much media coverage golf gets, these sort of untold stories of what goes

42:03on behind scenes to be able to let these guys go out, and hence why they all sort of generally will break down in tears when they get an event, because it is, you know, they must feel somewhat a little bit selfish about the whole thing, right? Because you can't help, but you've had all these people around you, making sure that you can perform to your best. There's that little moment of selfishness, but then the gratitude of, it can be possible without all these people, and it's an amazing thing to see when it does happen to somebody, you know, that moment of just pure happiness that is paid off, and then they're back to it again on Monday. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. This is the flip side to it, right, is you put all these good parents, you put all these great teams, these great coaches, these great physios, and if the athlete isn't who they are, isn't why the way they are, and isn't as focused and the same the way they are, you don't know.

43:09Which is devastating, right? So I can't get a team around me. Is that what you're saying, Alex? I'm not saying that. There's two sides to it, right? There's two sides. You've got to have it, and you've also got to then have everything around you to be able to allow you to perform with what you have, right? So I can see why, you know, I'm really sorry that they should be taking a lot of credit because they should, you know, it's not possible that they've done the work, but we just bloody advisees at the end of the day. But at the same time, like, and it's kudos to them and whoever's put it all together as well, because it's not like I've turned around to any of my players going, look mate, I'm working for you. They've come to me and whoever is in their team and gone, can you work for me? They've built their business and then they've also run it. And it's just what I'm trying to say is to further,

44:12it's just flat out impressive what these athletes do to be able to do what they do. And people just don't know what actually what goes into it. I don't think I've done. I definitely know. And now looking into 2026, obviously, it's going to be a huge year for Marco, obviously a huge year for you. I mean, everyone will be hoping for many years of this continuing with PJ Tour. What challenges does that bring for you? Because I'm guessing you're still here in the UK at the moment. That's right. And it's no different for me, like, in some ways, because the beginning of the DP Tour season, you'd be traveling to Asia, you'd be traveling to the Middle East, and then you're sort of waiting around until the European Swain kicks around, which is in May, for it to all feel like, okay, car, everything's now a 200 quid flight, rather than an 800 to a thousand pound flight. And the only difference now is America,

45:18they're all thousand pound flights. You know, jet lag every week, rather than just at the beginning of the season and the end of the season. So that stuff doesn't necessarily change too much. And in a lot of ways, I think there's a lot of pressure, a lot of hype. What's going to change this super exciting that, but like, it's just I'm here to try and be as good as I can every week, how to get better, and then try and do everything to the best interest on whoever my players are on DP, and now PGA Tour. And that goal doesn't necessarily change. Yes, the travel changes a little bit, but that's about it, really, you know. And it's not my story to tell. It's, you know, whoever my players are on PGA and DP, it's all just to tell, you

46:21know, Marco has his own story and tell, and I'll be piggybacking on whatever hard work he puts in, and what talent he has, and how he puts that to use, and what success he gets, and it'll be the same for the likes of, you know, whatever some of my players do on DP Tour as well. I'm just simply a person in the background that helps advise why I believe could possibly make him do something better. Who are the players on the DP World Tour that you're working with this year? So I'm still a short game consultant for Richard Mansell. I am now doing some full swing stuff with Rick Johnson, and came to me at the end of last season, and wanted some help. Really good players, one already on tour, went to Arizona State College, but didn't really perform

47:22that well last season. So yeah, excited to see what I can do to help him. So yeah, really excited about that project on where he is currently versus where I believe if he gets a few things in his game, adding in the right way, what he could possibly do as well, who focusing on them three, and then challenge to wise, focusing on Kalim Barrow, and with his full swing and short game, and then short game consultant to a couple of lads on the challenge tour as well, like Dan, Housing, and Ajay Farrow that I believe is going to have some starts on there as well, and Taylor Carter, I think he's got a few starts on there too. Yeah, but for the full swing stuff, the way I've sort of looked at it is like, I'm going to concentrate on one player on the PGA Tour, one player on the DP Tour, one player on the challenge tour, and that's Marco and PGA, regional DP, and then Kalim Barrow on the

48:26challenge tour, and I'd be like my free guys, I'm putting a lot of focus in to hopefully help out. Absolutely, and what's the differences because of course set up that you have to make when it comes to what targets are for, say Marco's playing on PGA Tour event, and different green setups, the way they set up those places, compared with obviously what it would have been like last year on the DP World Tour, is there a lot of fluctuation in that? Yeah, absolutely. I don't know, yes yet, but to what I've heard and what I've seen just doing some of the American majors, the greens are a heck of a lot thinner. As much as Marco's got so much better at spin control and controlling spin to make sure it doesn't spin up the front of the grain, he's actually not really going to need that skill nearly as much now, because he's actually

49:29going to benefit from being able to spin it so much, so it's gone from yeah, we'll control it, hit a half shots in that to now being like, can you hit some pull shots again for me? sort of need that skill bag, so that'll be interesting, until the end. Yeah, a little bit, yeah, exactly, so that's been super handy, but I believe also the, honestly the fairways that like the courses are just bigger, so a lot of stuff in, let's say the Africa, for example, and even Europe sometimes, there's a lot of trees, there's a lot of out of bounds, there's a lot of bushes, and especially in like super high altitudes as well, you've got to be so like careful and fully with your golf ball, and in America you can just bash it. So it's just going to say it, which is going to be great. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly, all these things should

50:32theoretically suit them, but it'll be a case of then, right, you're allowed to do this, can you do it, and how well can you do it, because you haven't really done it in a while, you know? So it's not like the skill or the ability isn't there, it's just okay, we've got to get a good a new bunch of skills again, that's all, so I don't know how long that'll take, probably, yeah, less than most people, but yeah, it'll be different, like the rough is generally a lot thicker. The grain is around the greens, there's a lot stronger, so there'll be a lot of like a lot more like ball fur shots, rather than trying to slip underneath it. The greens on the surface areas are generally a heck of a lot quicker, so being able to then paste part on quicker greens, which is not something he's used to, it's going to be really different, so I don't know what the crowds are going to be like week and week out, I know that doesn't bother him necessarily,

51:34but again, that will be different. Yeah, so I don't know what American media is like compared to European, like my brother lives out in America, and everything that he seems to read and see is completely different to everything that we see, and so yeah, it'd be interesting once, you know, if he plays well and America gets to know him, what happens after that? Yeah, is that feedback that you were talking about? Got all these things, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, and we'll need that feedback to understand okay, we need to be better here, we need to be better there, how do we get better at these things? That's what it's going to look like, right, let's do that for a month, let's see where we are in a month's time. It's so interesting, all different metrics that go into it, even for you as a coach to taking to consideration things like media and stuff like that that could affect a player's just feelings in that moment, and we're going away from the golf course, it can continue to affect

52:36them, and it's just that performance-based metrics basically, which is just really, really interesting, especially when someone's first year on a new tool. Yeah, yeah, it'll be cool, but we don't know what we're getting into yet, really, to the Greece, so yeah, probably figured that out, and after the first set of events, hit it, find it, hit it again, that's just, yeah, that's just figure out what is all about first. I love it, I love it. Alex, what would you say you always looking to just do you love this so much that you just want to continue doing this forever, you know, for as long as you can? No, no, okay, what's the dream? What's the dream? I'm not a typical location, a long ways, in a lot of ways to say, I'm a competitor, not to say the further, like,

53:40I dream of playing on the talk, because I don't, but I like to, well, I like to win, so I'll do anything in my power to what gets me winning at something, you know, like a lot of people, a lot of coaches, to what I've spoken to, take a lot of enjoyment out of helping people, and there is enjoyment in that, it's just not the thing that gets me out of bed, unfortunately, yeah, I don't know whether that makes me a horrible person or not, but that's just a truth. Yeah, yeah. I like the idea of, like, if there's an edge on someone that I can get, and if that makes them beat them, because they're doing this better or more smarter, or that's a better way of doing it, then, you know, that's the thing that I love, you know, and then when they're a player does it, and then they win, then they say, that's validation, okay, cool, I've got something that's allowing, you know, a winning formula to a degree, and I was

54:44sort of the whole reason why I went from short games to long game, I've got a lot of questions about that, a lot of doubt over it, and rightly so, really, I got good up being able to coach one thing, why disrupt it all, and it was the whole idea of, like, I just want to have more influence in how someone wins, because I feel like I'm doing a lot of effort in that, but just doing short game, you can't allow someone to get good and win just by chipping it around the grain. It's an important element to make cuts definitely, but so from a personal factor to enjoy what I'm doing, I had to pivot on that, and then that's the thing I love doing. Now, is there stress on that? Is there completely no control on that? Absolutely, and do I hate it the best of times? Most definitely, but there will be a point where I'll be like, right, I'm bored of this now,

55:49what's next, and yeah, I'm not, I'm nowhere near there, yeah, but I'm getting closer to it, the more and more, I complete my goal list. Sure, yeah, yeah, and you don't know what's next? Well, yeah, I think it's something. I think it's something I'm sure. I've pivoted quite a few times in my career already, and I'm only 29. Right. I've gone from playing to being a head pro, to being a general manager, to being a coach, to a short game specialist, to long games, to now working on mini tour, to BV, to PGA, and as long as I keep on going, complete everything I want to, that'll probably be when the next thing kicks around. Yeah, yeah, I love it. It's awesome, maybe just like mini part league, just gets really into it. Yeah, he's just the best mini part there in the world. Yeah, I mean, I quite like that. It's not very good at it, but I'm out

56:49of some attention to it. Ali Pali looks pretty cool on that. Just taking on Littler, just like, yeah, yeah. Alex said he was going to pivot, and this is crazy. He's crazy. I said, that's coach. I like it. I love how you're not to play, I just to coach. Yeah, maybe. I mean, I should play really. The mentality is probably there to do something like that, probably. Yeah, yeah, probably. They benefit from the way you sort of do things, breaking it down into all the you know, all the individual parts that make them even better. Those guys are fascinating, breed. That's probably yeah. Well, yeah, for sure, right? I mean, it's totally unknown, but I like to think it's probably a little bit behind time compared to other sports. So there might be a window of opportunity, maybe, you know, probably in nutrition, maybe, but I won't say too much or all that. Yeah. Like, thank you so much for joining me. I really do appreciate

57:51your time. It's going to be awesome just to see what happens this year for all your players, but obviously the spotlights can be pretty heavily on on Marco and his first year on a PJ tour. And yeah, I can't wait to see, yeah, I can't wait to see what you guys do and the huge, huge sort of documents that you get throughout the year of the processes and then what to do to improve and get that one percent better. So thank you so much coming on the podcast. That's all right, no, pleasure. Thanks, I've been there. You're welcome, mate. Cheers. I hope you enjoyed all chat with Alex there. I know I really did benefit from the discussion. And I thought it was really fascinating, the fact that, you know, when you consider what he's achieved at such a young age, that he now doesn't really look at this as, okay, now I'm just a PGA tour coach and I'm just going to build on that experience. He will do those things, but he's such an interesting guy, the fact that he's just like, right, what's next? I'm not sure and I'm excited by that proposition. And I think there's

58:51something in there for each of us when it comes to either what we can achieve playing this game or in our own careers, in our own lives, wherever it may be, not to sit still to do. So I really enjoyed the chat with Alex and I hope you all did too. We just came off of a fascinating weekend of golf, obviously, with the waste management things open. It was, I tried to keep tabs all weekend, and Saturday, Sunday, specifically, I watched quite a bit of the golf. Sunday night, over here in the UK, it's quite a late finish, or at least for me being an early bird, it was. And I watched basically the whole thing. And I fully expected Hedecki to just finish it off and get the job done, and I think that I was probably part of my mindset. And I remember him putting out on 17, going into the last hole with a one-stroke lead, got her up on the range, and then I don't remember

59:51anything afterwards. An absolute disaster from me. Fell asleep. I remember waking up to my phone off and not even really remembering that there was golf on, and then waking up in the morning and going, probably should check to see what happened in the golf, and was totally shocked to see Hedecki throw away. I mean, not throw away, but Bowie and then Bowie and the playoff hole was well, was a big surprise. To be fair, he'd made hard work a bit all day. Didn't really hit many fairways, and was scrambling for his life and still playing some exceptional golf, obviously, a very difficult venue. I think that's the thing with the Phoenix Open. He sort of gets labeled as this party tournament and everything like that, but that golf course can punish you so quickly. And I think it was clear and evident to see that. Obviously, I was really hoping with the episode with Alex today that Marco was going to have a good weekend. And he had a solid first day,

1:00:56even prior, and then I just think he shot four over on the second day. And it just does show that, you know, transferring your skills from DP World over to PGA. It does take time. So to see Marco struggles early doors is no real surprise. But I think there's definitely signs there that his game can transfer. It's just now relearning all those skills that Alex was talking about, the fact that he'd spend the ball probably too much for DP World Tour and had to work on that. And now when it comes to PGA Tour, I thought, right, we'd probably do with those spin rates back up again. So it's going to be really interesting to watch his sort of evolution this year as he learns how to be a PGA Tour player. So I'm excited to see that. I really am. So yeah, I thought it was great weekend. Scotty Sheffield once again just really didn't have his best golf. And yet came in a shot away from being in that playoff. Just unbelievable golfer really is mindset king. It's very,

1:02:03very impressive to see. And it's going to be a great season of golf. Liv Riad, obviously Elvis Smiley, I believe won the first event. I don't mean to do that. You could hear it in my voice there. Liv Riad, I don't mean to do that. Golf, more golf being available for people to watch is only a good thing. It's just it does feel like a bit of a side show still, which is a real shame. And I'm really going to try and get there this year when it comes over to to to Birmingham to the JCB Club. I've got a friend who may possibly be able to get hold of some tickets for us which will be great. But I would love to experience it. And I'm saying that with the caveat that I want to experience it before potentially it just goes away. There is that feeling that it might just go away. So yeah, we'll keep an eye on things we've lived. See how it goes. I wanted to just say I haven't

1:03:05consumed any of TGL this season. And I'm not bothered either. And like I just said, more golf is great. It just hasn't captured me this season. I think the novelty of the fact that I'm not going to see Tiger playing really does the track from it. And I think that's a bit of a litmus test for the whole thing, really, isn't it? The fact that you really do need that sort of, okay, I'm going to see this person play and that's exciting. Not having him competing is a big loss for TGL this season. But who knows, maybe I will tune in as it gets further on. It's just a weird times over in the UK, but I've not even been catching up with it on YouTube either. So I think the answer there and I've stuck to this for a long time is to bring long drive guys in. And of course, to bring the ladies in as well, the women's golf. I think Nelly called and made the point that why are they not being included? And I couldn't agree more, to be honest, I think that's a huge miss. And then also bringing in

1:04:10the celebrity slash sort of content creator guys. Bob does sports, Grant and all that. Good, good. All those guys joining, if Peter Finch of the world, Rick Shields of the World, I'm probably not Rick now with the live stuff, but it would make a huge difference. And I think they would see a huge spike in numbers and popularity. But hey, I don't make those decisions, other people do with a lot more business savvy than me. So maybe it will work out long term, let's wait and see. That's pretty much it for the golf news really. I just wanted to wrap up the episode. I always do this at the start of the episode. And I feel like people come here not to hear about me or to hear my views on things, but to see what my guests views are. So I thought I would just chuck this in at the end. And if you're still here, I greatly appreciate you. And maybe I can give you a little taste of what's coming up next week. That'd be nice, wouldn't it? Should we finish with that? So what's coming up next week? Well, there has been one golf product this year that has kind of taken the golf social media world by storm, but also

1:05:14the serious golfers by storm. And I mean this because I had my lesson and I have regular interaction with James Sharp and he is not a training aid guy, but wait for it. When he saw I was using this, that's all you're going to get. He said, well, that's one training aid that I do think is worthwhile. So next week, we're going to talk to one of the, I think co-founder is technically the right term, co-owner of strike wedge. We're going to have Chris Rose on the podcast. It's a really great episode. What you can do to get the most out of your training and also how the whole inception of that idea started. So stay tuned for that. Be ready for that. Thank you all so much for listening. I was going to burp then. I'm going to get a little burp. With the last knock, we can't finish an episode on a burp. See you all next week. Cheers.