Inside the Groyper Campaign: What James Fishback's Florida Flop Reveals

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1:04Joining me today is repeat guest, my friend and colleague, Daily Wire, managing editor Dylan Houseman. Dylan, twice in two weeks, man, I wouldn't have had you back right one after the other if the story wasn't really worth it, but it really is. So thanks for being here. Glad to be back to it is one of the burdens of writing regular bangers is that sometimes you have to do the show to my son, but you know, that's just the burden I bear. So speaking of the bangers and you do write them so frequently, there are many, but this one in particular is titled, Here Live, a Groypers, a dispatch from podcast to Stan. And this one took you a little bit out of your comfort zone and out of the swamp. Tell us tell us first just broadly what the piece was about. Yeah, we can start 30,000 feet above the swamps of Florida. I went from the swamps of DC to the swamps of Florida, literally down into Everglade,

2:05and then I got a fish country. And people might recall that there was a governor election, a governor primary election last week in Florida. They might also recall that there was a fellow named James Fishback, who was running it for governor and the Republican primary. And the short version of who James Fishback is, is that he launched his campaign running very aggressively against Israel running against a pack at various times, running against the Jews, more explicitly, he was really dog whistling with very specific. Turns phrase and messaging towards the next foot test crowd, the grippers is what they call themselves, hence the title of the piece, you started by there being goy slop being fed to the kids at school cafeterias, which is obviously an anti-Semitic dog whistle. Is it even a dog whistle actually, at that point, I guess it's more of a shout dog shout. Anti-Semitic whistle. And yeah, he ran this very online, you know, targeted at these very young men, streamer watching anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, anti-A pack, folks, and gained a lot of attention on the internet as a result.

3:13But over the course of his campaign, he kind of shifted somewhat, he still maintained a lot of that base, but he also started running into more traditional kind of populist manner, I would say he was talking a lot about data centers, he lately started talking a lot about flock. He wanted to return to old Florida as he put it very harsh on immigration on H1B visas. So ran this kind of populist naturalist campaign, but it very much began with this anti-Israel anti-A pack, anti-Jewish at times messaging that got all of the online kind of, you know, alt-right types really into him. And so I wanted to go down to Florida to see how does this translate into the real world, you know, this gets a ton of attention online, people are fighting on Twitter about it, they're fighting on Instagram about it, there's all these snipes back and forth between the various camps of the right and the online sphere. But most of these guys that have run for office this way as basically, you know, online provocateurs tried to just get attention by being racist and anti-Semitic on the internet.

4:13Most of them have flamed out completely when they actually run for anything they don't really go anywhere. Fishback was a little different in the sense that he was running a real campaign, he wasn't able to raise much money, but he had some volunteers, he was doing a ton of campaign stops. He was taking the he got one on soccer Carlson, people might remember and got a big boost from that he got backed by Nick Fuentes, so he had the, you know, alternative media support fully in his corner. And so I was like, okay, to the extent that any of these people are serious in their attempts to run for office fishback in a way, he's not a serious person as we can discuss more later, but in a way, he was running a more serious campaign than most of these other kind of provocateurs. So I want to go down there, talk to some of his supporters, go to some of his events. I actually ended up talking to him himself at one of his events and kind of observe what these people are about. Do they exist in real life? What do the grippers look like outside their basements that type of thing before we get further into the grovers and you already said all this, but this was just my favorite part of the piece. So I'm going to I'm going to quote directly from it fishback. He launched his campaign with inflammatory Twitter tie raids about Israel and APAC. He secured endorsements from both Tucker Carlson and Fuentes. He frequently lobbied racist attacks against the opponent by Rondonalds, but the critical difference from other grouper grifters was the act of running a real campaign.

5:28He made dozens of stops in the closing days of the campaign alone had a strong digital operation, an organized group of real volunteers and as a gifted communicator when he isn't triggered into telling a black voter they should be lynched. Yeah, that is I was hoping people would get the reference. If I included in the PC literally told a black voter at one of his campaign stops because he one step back fishback was incredibly accused of dating a 17 year old. I don't know if it was ever adjudicated 100% but we can go incredibly accused. And somebody asked him about this in a campaign event a black man and he told him he should be lynched for asking him this question. So that's like an example of you know, just so people think this isn't like, oh, you know pro clutching this guy's a racist now he's very actually racist. Yeah, that's there's no there's no two ways about that one. But as I said to the piece in the line you just read very talented communicator and speaker when he's not being completely unhitched like you do have to hand it to him in that sense. All right, so you get down to the swamps of Florida you got down what it was two days before I got there Monday morning I went Monday night to his final speech of his campaign which is down again and kind of the swampish country down in South Florida.

6:42And then I went to his campaign watch party rally victory party is he would have called it whatever you want to call it on Tuesday night on actual election day. All right, so just walk us through you get down there. Just start walking us through your experience in the land of the groiders. Yeah, so the first thing I did I flew to Orlando I knew that Byron Donald is going to be in Orlando on Tuesday for his election night event. I was hoping to potentially catch up with him if I was able to any fishback was going to be a tap on which is about an hour and a half down the road. So I fly into Orlando. I don't know exactly what I'm going to do first, but then I find out about his closing speech. It's happening later that night. It's about three hours drive from where I was in a very rural town town of about 7,000 people. So I drove the three hours in Orlando. I was being held at this church. The I believe it was the turning point church of God was the name of the church really out in the middle of nowhere. Very rural area as I said I get there. I see fish back in the parking lot helping his volunteers bring signs into the church and stuff this morning at 45 minutes before he started.

7:43I'm only a handful of people there at that point. I walk into the church. I see the pastor of the church who I looked up before getting there and see you know if he was going to be directly involved with this. What his deal was find out he was a fishback supporter. So I went into the church, which talked to the pastor. He was very forthcoming with me. And the first thing I noticed was that I don't know his exact age, but I'd peg him is he had a 21 year old son. I'd peg him as being, you know, Jen ex probably. Not a full boomer, but you know, older guy. And he sounded very much like a typical kind of popular strunk voter in many ways. You know, he talked about data centers. He talked about immigration. He also talked about taxes. He wasn't big. You know, he's an economic conservative. He didn't want to pay a lot of taxes once we cut taxes, things like that. Didn't talk about Israel all didn't talk about the Jews. None of these kind of conspiracy, you know, racist, bizarre online things that like the Nick Flintus types are into. None of that was present in this conversation. And so that was my first thing I noticed. I actually asked him about Israel at one point in the conversation.

8:44Because like you know, James, he got a lot of attention with his anti Israel rhetoric. But I'm just curious like as a pastor and a sport of his like where you stand on that. I mean, I think that's probably Israel. And notably as I noted the piece. His church had foreign flags lining the side of it. I did a little research and this seems to be something within his. Denomination that that's kind of a common thing that it's kind of you know they view themselves as a global kind of entity summary. And so they were there flags lining the church and one of them was these rarely flag. It was actually the one all the way at the front directly next to James fishback while he was giving a speech. So of him with the Israeli flag in the frame. He was 20 feet away from it. And so he was probably Israel. I noticed that thought that was weird. He said a son introduced him to James fishback. So that talked to his son. His son knew him from working with him at this nonprofit that he used to run years ago. Where he was helping you know do like debate club training for like teenagers, which connected into the 17 year old dating situation. But again, we don't know if you know that rabbit hole. But he met he met his son. His son was a fan again didn't mention anything about the Israel stuff the Jews any of that stuff. And then you know we went inside.

9:51He's he was about to give the speech before the speech. I started talking to a few other people again nobody talking about the Jews and we're talking about Israel. It was an older crowd more millennial and Gen X than like the young men who you would think will be watching Nick Fuentes all day. And they were talking about again normal kind of populist issues data centers flock wanting to reign an immigration wanting to get a lot of affordability talk as well a lot of talk about cost of living in wanting to get the economy in a better state than it is. And nobody's talking about these crazy online things the only person who did bring up the kind of gripper stuff at this event was one campaign volunteer who I said next to talk to and he was younger guy. I think he was 21 for a call correctly and he said yeah he had gestured to the Israeli flag which is actually how I noticed it was in the room. I didn't even say that he gestured to the Israeli flag and was like yeah I do have feelings met that flag you know over there. But like the Israel thing is really just a broken record at this point and I was like what do you mean by that he's like well you know we've said what we want about it like people know where we stand.

10:56And people that just obsessively talk only about it all the time you know it's kind of grand it's kind of a waste of time like there it gets old there are other things that we need to be talking about their important like the other issues we have discussed. I asked him what his media diet was he very openly told me I listen to Nick Fuentes I listen to Tucker Carlson he had a very online Gen Z media diet I would say and again Tucker Carlson talks about Israel every single episode Nick Fuentes virulent anti Israel but this kid was like yeah like I have those opinions fish back as his opinions but like we don't want to obsess ever so that was that was the trucks of the interesting observations from the first night at the church and I guess I should close on the last point that I was sitting in the back. And he didn't have a job at this place and his speech that the show was closed on the last point that fish back in his speech did not talk about Israel really he had one reference to a pack of our call correctly I think he mentioned a pack once in the speech didn't mention Israel by name I actually caught up with him after the speech and asked him why are you talking about Israel apex so much less and he was like well I am still talking about it but you know I want to talk about the issues that matter to Floridians and talking about other things as well well and last a bit about this

12:07with on the next step is as soon as I got done talking to fish back, I spent a few minutes with them talk to him. I asked him a question of why he's not talking about Israel. He back as much. He moves on to get a handshake with the supporters and a gentleman walks up to me who was older who I wanted to talk to already because he seemed like an interesting guy based on his actions throughout the night. And he walks up to me and introduces himself and said the first thing out of his mouth is, yeah, the Israel thing is dead. We're not talking about that anymore. I was like, what do you mean? Who are you? What is this? And he revealed himself to be an outside advisor to the fish back campaign who said that he would never support an anti-Israel candidate because Israel is the chosen people of God and the out theologically, you know, we can't oppose Israel. And he was a Florida political operator. He would start advising the fish back campaign, you know, that a month and a half two months prior and said, yeah, I told James to cut that out essentially. Like, man, more of the anti-Israel stuff that's stupid. And he's like, I don't think James Fishman

13:08has any of Israel's. I wouldn't be advising his campaign. I was like, okay, man, interesting thing. But that was a very interesting conversation. So you have, you go to this kind of his, his swan song rally, right? The last rally that's closing argument, it's closing arguments. And you're thinking, okay, this is, he's not talking about Israel. There seem to be some adults in the room. This, it's, if it looks like a political campaign and it quacks like a political campaign, like, my God, might Jimmy Fishback pull it off and then came election day and the crowd at the fish back victory party was a beast of a different nature. Tell us about that. Yes. I, you know, we all knew that fish back wasn't going to win. He was pulling, you know, in the high single digits, most polls, you know, maybe he gets 10% 15% but we knew he was going to win. And so, you know, I come down here, wanted to see these crazy supporters. And after this first event, I'm thinking to myself, maybe my premise was wrong here. Like, maybe there are none of these people in the real world. And like,

14:12I'm not going to get to talk to any of them and even Fishback himself, as it really is arguing about this stuff anymore. Like, maybe, maybe I kind of missed the boat on this. And he, you know, this is just going to flame out and not be that interesting. Not the case. I drove back to Orlando Tuesday night comes. I swing by the Byron Nottles election party briefly, say hello to a few folks there. Then I make the hour and a half drive to Tampa and get there at about 730 to 8ish. And this is after the polls had closed. It was already clear that he was losing the results were officially end that to show that he was not going to win. He ended up winning about 10% of the vote. It's at the airport. Hilton, I believe pick your rate hotel chain. It was the airport hotel. And I believe it was a Hilton. I show up, walk in. There's no kind of signage or volunteers really anywhere. I go back to the, I finally followed the stream of young kids and suits and dresses as I put it in the

15:12piece that were kind of mingling about the hotel. I can follow them like bread crumbs back to where this big ballroom is. And I see the event. I walk past the credential table. What the extent that it existed. Nobody stopped me. I just walked into the event. Started taking the measure of the room. And this was where you saw the grippers in full effect. This crowd, unlike the previous nights crowd, which was older, more kind of rural, I would say normal Americans, so to speak real Americans who I, even if I don't agree with them about James Fishback, I could have some similar concerns to them and you know, crack a bear with them and have a good time. This was a bunch, this looked like a problem after party. This was a bunch of kids look like they're about 20 years old, dressed to the nines to the level that a 20 year old can dress to the nines. And they were very much talking about Israel and the Jews and all of these things much more openly. And so I talked to some of the folks there. Again, got the vibe that these were the actual grippers, but the thing that was interesting to me there, one of the things is that the people that

16:14were most worried about Israel and were attracted to the Israel stuff and A back stuff and racism and the edge of the ordinance and all that stuff were people that were not by and large from Florida. There were people who had come from other places to, you know, I think as I put it in the piece to kind of pilgrimage, it seemed like they thought James Fishback was like the leader of this movement and they needed to come pay honor to him. So it was interesting that the people that were actually his constituents potentially seemed less concerned with it. But that was where I saw all these kids who were the Nick Flintes types. And even then, even there, there was some degree of, I would say confusion and kind of a disconnect between Fishback's rhetoric and who was supporting him because even there, I talked to a couple of people. I know in the piece, there was this black girl, a teenager who'd volunteered for the campaign who said that she liked Fishback because she was pro-life and was a Christian. He was strongly pro-life and he made a religion of big thing who this campaigned. And she had just seen a social media clip of him talking

17:16about abortion and Christianity and stuff. And that's how she got to know him. And I asked her, I said, you know, a lot of people think James Fishback is racist. And do you think he's racist? And she said, well, we all have our moments, right? But I don't think you would be so nice to me if you were racist. And I was like, that's an interesting answer. That's an interesting answer. But yeah, that crab was very different and confirmed to me two things. One, the groipers are real. And in a sense, they do exist in the real world. They can't get out. They can't vote. They can't volunteer to these things. The two, they're not, in my opinion, an electorally significant piece of puzzle. That was kind of, that was kind of big, been the broader debate here amongst Republicans is like, do we need to give in any area to these kids who are crazy on the internet? Because if we don't, are we going to lose elections if they don't vote for us? And my conclusion from this experiment is no, because I just don't think there's enough of them in numbers, even if all 10% of

18:18James Fishback's voters were like this, then it may be a debate, but they're not as I learned. So that's, that's one takeaway. The second takeaway, and you and I talked about this actually when I got back is like, there's a youthful energy to this that is real. And also is the type of thing that tends to fade and evolve over time in my opinion. We've all, you know, all of us that are in DC, have been involved in politics over young age, have gone to these conventions and these conferences as, you know, high schoolers and college kids and early adults where you are super jazzed about all these new ideas and these new figures and this energy and your movement. And like, it usually just doesn't pan out that way. Like the adults in the room usually still end up being the ones driving the ship and the youth insurgency, you know, if the youth insurgency was real, Ron Paul would have impressed it. And if the youth insurgency was real, you would have seen a very different, even in this term of Trump, you would have seen a very different policy platform

19:18I'd say from for Trump and his second term, if this youth insurgency was real and actually taking over the party. And so, you know, I came away from it not to not as concerned about this movement, I would say as I may have previously done. So I think that's fair. And I think for those of us who, you know, are our, our chair, your sentiments and are also happy that, you know, groipers do not represent the future of the Republican party. This is welcome news. But, you know, these kids aren't going anywhere. Nick Fuentes isn't going anywhere. James Fishback certainly isn't going anywhere. I mean, I guess the two questions are, what do you think happens next? Right? What do you think happens? I suppose in between now and in 2028. And is it possible that something could happen that would actually make them more electorally relevant? Right? Like, and is it maybe more of these candidates, more of these groipers adjacent candidates following James Fishback's example and trying to actually run

20:20real campaigns while also, you know, being racist and anti-Semitic? Yeah, I think there's two things that really come to mind on this question. The first is that these people, these smart ones will moderate to some degree and the dumb ones will continue to be crazy and they'll flam out. But they will moderate. And we saw that with Fishback's campaign himself. He ran for close to a year. And at the beginning of that year, he was talking a very, you know, outlandish way. And every time as that outside advisor, you know, pointedly put it to me, he evolved, you could say. And he started running in a more traditionally populist, you know, Trump like way than as crazy as he was at the beginning. And I would even say someone like Nick Fuentes, if you observe his rhetoric a little more closely in the past year or so, I would say he has started to get, and I would be clear, I'm not saying he's actually changed his underlying views. I have no way of knowing that I would assume that. But to the degree that

21:21his rhetoric represents what he is pushing, he's like outflanked people like Tucker and Candace from the same side. Like he asserted a call those types of people crazy and point out times when they're being outlandish and ridiculous. And I think there's very clearly a tactical move by him. And he's the person that all of these people look up to and kind of take their cues from. There's a clear effort by him to at least be like, I'm not a, I'm not Candace of it. It's like, I'm not out there. I'm not Tucker Carlson is talking about Israel every single episode. He's starting to kind of try and get laid back a little bit more towards the middle in a way with a lot of his rhetoric and what he's been talking about lately. And again, I don't think that means he's changed his views at all. But I think it represents an acknowledgement and an understanding that like being an insane, I don't know if I'm allowed to curse on this show, but we can try it. Yeah. Being the idea that being just like an unhinged poster on the internet as your, as your political platform is like actually a way to attain power. There's clearly a recognition that that's not the move that's happening. So that's the first thing I would say. The second

22:25thing I would say is that a lot of this is going to depend on like the institutions within DC and within politics. A lot of these kids who I talk to at the second event are the type of kids that are going to end up being interns on the Capitol Hill. There are types of kids that are going to end up in like research-assisted positions at think tanks and media companies and things like that in a few years once they get out of college. There are types of kids, you know, large, a lot of them that are going to get kind of absorbed into the political apparatus. And I think it's going to depend a lot. And we've seen this happen with places like Heritage, for instance, when they had the whole Tucker Carlson, Brueha with Kevin Roberts and all that. It's going to be up to these institutions when those kind of inflection points happen to make clear where they stand on some of these key issues and to not succumb to what they perceive to be the hot thing of the moment. Because if you do have the Heritage Foundations and the, you know, pick your media companies of the world and the Senate offices of the Republican Party and all these institutions that these kids

23:28filter into, if they all start to be like, well, I guess we kind of have to give it to the groupers a little bit. That is where the energy is. I guess we're going to give it and maybe we'll be a little bit anti-Semitic or maybe we'll, maybe we'll turn on Israel a little bit, maybe we'll be a little bit racist. Like if that starts to happen, then the kids won't grow up because they don't need to. But if these institutions do kind of maintain a firm line of like, yes, you may have been a little out there in college, whatever. We don't want to cancel you. But like, if you come here to work at this think tank or this, you know, in the Senate office or whatever, like there's an expectation you're going to grow up and like be an adult now politically. If that happens, then I think this stuff kind of naturally filters out. But that's a big if. I don't know. I mean, I think the other thing that could come into play and it's less of an active correction than what you just described. Obviously, it'll be obvious when I say it. But one thing that really struck me about this whole campaign was just how little Byron Donald's engaged with the most extreme rhetoric from Fishback. And I was constantly impressed. I like Byron Donald's. I think he's a great politician. I think he's very good at this. Obviously, I think, you know,

24:31he handled one. I think it's reasonable to assume he'll be the next governor of Florida. But he really at no point. And that's rare these days, right? Everyone punches back and punches down. And if someone gives you a nickname, you give them a nickname back, right? I mean, it's what's made politics at times a little bit more entertaining, but generally really insufferable. As everyone's meaming at each other and the Democrats are doing it to Trump and Trump's doing it back. And at some point, it's just so exhausting. But Byron Donald's the rare thing of he, I mean, he engaged with him. He criticized them on the merits. I believe a handful of times, you know, in response to some of the more extreme racist comments that Fishback made. I think maybe once or twice, but Donald said something. But otherwise, he pretty much just ignored him went about running his campaign. And I think that I don't know if that will motivate anyone to change or if it will inspire any candidates to follow Donald's lead in the future. But I do

25:32think it was an important campaign. I think the way that he ran the campaign was very important for this moment because he showed that you still can succeed in, especially in Republican primaries without necessarily giving into the kind of like drag down bear knuckle, just like game of constant insults and who can be the meaner meanie to their opponent. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because that is a very important piece of the story. And I hope to talk to Byron at one point in the process of doing the story and he was just very busy with election night stuff, obviously. So it didn't man out, but I did talk to some people around him, leading up to the election and then on election night. And it was a very, you're right. He basically ignored him almost entirely throughout the campaign. And you know, the people who I talked to were like, yeah, that's a very deliberate choice because one on just a personal level like Byron is black man and having a guy make constant attacks, they own him about his race and use racial epithets towards him is not

26:35something he is going to want to dignify with a response. And so that obviously makes sense. But then also politically it is unnecessary, especially Byron's position where he has such a strong lead, it's unnecessary to get down in the mud and someone like that. And I've often, you know, it's hard to have counterfactuals and know for sure. I have often thought at a gut level that we, the collective royal we as like saying the conservative media figures and political actors probably give too much thought and too much energy towards these provocateurs. And it depends which one you're talking about. They're all a little bit different, but certainly someone like Fuentes or someone at this point like Candace Owens. It's like, yes, they do have large audiences, but on the internet again, not, but it does translate as we've seen to real world political power. And I think hinging on their every word clipping every questionable statement took the corals and makes on a show clipping every single crazy thing Candace Owens says on a show and

27:38freaking out about it on Twitter and doing entire podcast episodes dedicated to debunking them. You have to do some of that. You do have to make people aware and rebut some of the things that they're saying and make people, especially someone who, you know, some of these people who have, you know, different audiences that they cultivated previously in their career that may not realize how they've changed. You do have to do some of that. But I think at times we maybe give too much attention and too much air to these people. And I think I do hope as you alluded to that like some Republicans and other conservatives look at how Byron Donald's ran this campaign and say, oh, actually, like, if we're running or dealing with this insane person or having a, you know, Twitter fighter podcast fight with this insane person, like actually maybe instead of getting in the mud and having a dramatic back and forth when everything they say, maybe just by being sane and presenting a positive alternative for people to support that people can be drawn to on their own without having to make it such a direct head to head conflict. Maybe that is actually a more

28:41fruitful path because as well, though, kids love things that are rebellious. They love things that are, that are, you know, dissident that really rattled the establishment and their parents and their grandparents that, you know, didn't love them enough or whatever. Like the kids love that stuff. And so if you are constantly scolding them and telling them that they're bad for what they're doing, that might backfire. Whereas if you're just presenting a more sane reasonable alternative, it's more attractive to them and that they can put two and two together and say, hey, what I rather go with the funny guy that gets 10% of the vote that's really crazy and makes me, you know, you know, runs a tingle up my leg. Or when I rather go vote for the guy who like, it's still pretty good, but actually can win and like I can be an adult and like actually, you know, be part of something real. A lot of them might choose the latter option if you just, you know, aren't weird about it. We can only hope. Dylan Houseman is the manager editor of the Daily Wire. Go read his incredible, I guess we can now call it a post mortem of the James Fish Back campaign. Here live the groopers. It's up on dailywire.com. As we speak, Dylan, always a

29:44pleasure. Thanks for joining. Thanks Tim. I will do my best to turn in another banger in the next few days. I'll come back on next week and continue to monopolize the show. Continue the streak. And whether it's with Dylan or not, we will be back next week on Behind the Story. Thanks for tuning in.