Inside The Data: Did The Athletic Testing Of NFL Draft Safeties Meet Eagles Standard?

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2:04Your dedicated expert checks every single deduction and credit to help you get the best possible outcome so you can feel confident you're getting every dollar you deserve. And the best part? You'll see real-time updates on your expert's progress right on your phone while you live your life. Plus, you get unlimited expert help at no extra cost, even on nights and weekends during tax season. Visit TurboTax.com. Only available with TurboTax full service experts, real-time updates only on iOS mobile app. Hi, hello, welcome back to Inside the Data on Inside the Birds. I'm Jeff Mosher, and of course I got with me, Sam, Finkel, as we always have when we do data and analytics. And we've been doing a series on looking at every position of the NFL draft, well, not every position, but a lot of positions of NFL draft prospects and their athletic testing and trying to put that all in perspective. And especially from an Eagles viewpoint, and Sam, I don't know if there's a position right now

3:06to look at from an Eagles viewpoint more than safety. Because if the Eagles had to line up and play a game today, they don't really have a starting safety. I mean, they brought back Marcus Epps after Reed Blanketship left. And they signed a special teamer in J.T. Gray and McCuba is coming back from his injuries. So I guess right now, and they, of course, trade Sydney Brown away. So what you would be looking at right now, and we're going to remove Cooper to June from the equation just for the sake of this conversation, is a starting safety tandem of McCuba and Marcus Epps. One guy is a rookie, or a second-year player who struggled to stay healthy as a rookie. The other guy is probably his 30 years old. He's really supposed to be a backup. Maybe your third safety in a big nickel. And then depth, it would be like Andre Sam and J.T. Gray. So this is a position that's undergoing a lot of work. So what you're saying is, is a position of need, I think. Yes, a little bit. And it lines up well for the draft because it's a position of need not only now,

4:06but for the future as all like Epps is on a one-year deal. The only person will be under contract as a safety right now is Andrew McCuba. So it's obviously a cupboard that needs to be restocked. Well, I have some good news for you then. Yeah, I think this draft is very deep at safety this year. Awesome, that's great. Now, we're going to go take a look at your charts as we've been doing all year long. When I looked at the chart you put together of safety testing at the combine, I was struck by something. And I'm probably going to need you to put it in a better perspective for me and for our listeners and viewers. Entrieving. What did you think overall, compared to what we've done with, we've done offensive line, right? We've done tight end. We've done, what's the other position that we've done, Ed Drusher? I forget. Well, we did interior offensive line and tackle. That's why. And tackle, right. And then we've also done tight end. What did you think overall when you were putting this list together when you were done about this safety class?

5:07Besides it being deep, you felt anything jump out to you? It's the athletic freaks in this class. Really? So that's why I need you to put this in perspective for me because just going through your charts, I didn't see it. And I was wondering how much of that is, guys opting not to do things and how much of that is not being ideal size, which we always say impacts your athletic score. But before I bring up the sheet and everything, there was nobody who tested in the 90s, like you have one guy, I think 86 was the highest, you had a lot of 70. I looked at the list and said, man, I thought I was going to see some freak of nature athletic test. Sure. Just from the athletic score, Stanford, that makes sense. The thing is that some of these safeties move in ways that you expect corners to move. And that's where I would distinguish it. Maybe freaks was a little bit too optimistic, but I do think there's a lot of talent in this safety class. In terms of just athletic testing,

6:09I do, I am impressed with this class. OK, good. We'll talk about it. And clearly, we'll have a kale of downs discussion. And there are a couple of other guys who will be either first rounders or early second rounders who can be impact players right away. I don't know if the Eagles would take another safety in the top, say 55 after they took Makuba last year in the third round, but you never know, because they're, if you take them for their word, which I usually do, they really do draft the best available prospect. And there are some really good safeties in this list. Now, beyond the measurable, it's just even in production. So there are some teams, Sam, that like the Eagles, we talk about how much they value athletic testing, and they'll take a risk on a player. Say like Jail talk, right? You can't say he has super productive college career, because he only played the edge position for two years, I think, right? There's safety at Cornell of all places.

7:11I've talked and observed some teams, like the Steelers, for example, I think that they, of course, they love good athletes, but I would say their draft reflects more production, three to four year players, mental and physical toughness over just the ability to like completely dominate somebody in the gym room, right? So, but we know that Eagles are really big on athletic testing, especially at specific positions and safety would be one of them. Yeah, I think so too. And I think Makuba suffered last year from the fact that he's a little bit smaller, a little more compact, but athletically, I mean, he's right there with all the other safeties, so. For sure, we saw that right away in the preseason. I mean, this guy's a playmaker, but the concerns about his size, the staying healthy might have been a little bit valid, because he missed some time in the preseason, right? And then he missed the gym, and then of course, he missed all those games at the end of the year with the, I was at the broken ankle, I forget already what that sounds right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, all right, let's take a look at your charts right now.

8:17I'd love to flip the script as soon as we get it up too. Oh, let's do it. Do you notice one of the athletic testing tests is missing? Yes, wait, well, one of the tests. It was at the, was it the cone? Yeah, yeah. Do you know why it's missing? Nobody decided to do it, or not a single safety did it? That's weird. Yeah, I thought it was weird too. Now, I know that the cone matters more for some positions, and other we talked about like maybe interior offensive alignment, right? Just the agility or left-right movement, but I would think that had a position like safety, any kind of athletic testing would be to your benefit to do, because that's a position of great athletes, typically. 100%, it's here. So, it's right here, you know, it exists. Like, you just pop that into the screen. So nobody, not once in, and why did only three people elect to do the short shuttle? It's a good question. Well, I get the bench. I think the bench, okay, so that's a position

9:17you want your lineman to do, and you don't care if your corner's in safety's doing it. That's just reality of it. But at the same time, it's just really interesting, I think doing it this way, seeing what tests people opted in and opted out of, and you know a lot of that's agent-driven, but I always wonder, like, you see positions not testing the same thing, like the three-cone, and it makes me wonder, like, did they all kind of agree to? Probably, inclusion. I wouldn't go that, I mean, I really wouldn't go that far, but it is kind of fun to think about, like, how are these decisions get made? Sure. So let's talk about the number one guy, Caleb Downs, who's, you know, probably, I can't imagine he's not the first safety off the board. So he does know, he just sits on his production. I don't know if I'll have to say how it's pro-day yet, might be actually today, I don't know, but either way, he'll probably just sit on his production. Now, so his overall score without doing anything is a 76.

10:18So does that mean Sam that the score reflects just his measurables? In theory, that is my understanding of it. I don't know entirely if that's accurate though, and there's no way to really know how they calculate it. I do think it's overstated by his measurables, but there could be other factors that influence it that we're just unaware of, because it's not public how they come up with a formula. Right, because he's six feet, he's 206 pounds. That's pretty good for safety. That's, you know, you got no issue with that. You know, you'll take that size. So, you know, things like arm length and ham size aren't that really important for safety. And these numbers will get updated with the pro-day. I do know that. So, like a lot of the, remember when I did the charts last year, the quadrant charts? Yeah. When I did that, I had to be careful of when I did them,

11:19because as the pro-days were coming in, those numbers would update. So I want to make sure I had the most up to date. So even the numbers you see today, will get updated as the draft process goes on. Got it. Good stuff. Okay. So maybe, maybe like right before the draft, we can do like a stock up, stock down based on athletic, changes in your athletics core kind of pop. We'll keep an eye on that. Yeah. But downs is clearly gonna be the top die. You know, I know it would be really, really tough for the Eagles to be able to even get him unless, you know, they're packaging some picks and moving up. Right. Which, you know, you can't really, ever since the Eagles drafts a jihad candle, I think you have to kind of keep an open mind. Like, could they draft a tight end? We talked about sneak, right? In the first round, I guess I can't slam the door on. I still think they're more likely to go offensive tackle. I think so too. And perhaps maybe edge ruster, if they don't come out with one in the trade market before the draft. Yeah, I mean, it'll be really interesting.

12:20There's a lot of needs and, you know, positions that could be bolstered and probably should be bolstered by the Eagles. So it'll be really interesting to see where they end up going. All right. So the guy who kind of is the king of athletic testing is he's also a pretty good prospect. Dylan Theaneman. Did I pronounce that correctly? Yeah, from Oregon. So he did, is he the only one to actually test in all six categories? I mean, right? Yeah, I mean, he didn't do the shuttle. But oh, well, I already, I eliminated, no, you're right, he didn't do the shuttle. I was thinking cone for a second, right? So okay, so he did one, two, three, five of the six. The only person to do all six might have been Kilgore from South Carolina, right? Yeah, I think so. Okay, good for him. Yeah, I mean, definitely, definitely good for him. He's definitely a guy I was hoping to shout out a little bit too

13:20once we get to it. What's the hell to you about Theaneman? I mean, he has everything you're looking for at safety. Usually with safety, I mean, for three speed at safety is insane. Yeah, I mean, I think teams would be comfortable anywhere from like four, four to four, five at the worst at safety. So four, three, five at safety is really good. And the 40 matters a little bit more. The split matters too, but the flip probably matters a little bit more, but the 40 does matter more than it did with the other positions we've looked at. Another thing is with vertical, usually anything over like 35 is pretty great for a safety and he's at 41. So I think that really showcases his abilities and what he could do just from a trait's perspective and physical tools as broad was 10.05

14:20and his bench was the best at 18. And by the way, his vertical was second best, which so pretty good all around. Yeah, I know he's 20 second overall on Daniel Jeremiah's top 50 prospects. And the interesting thing about him is that, I guess in a little bit, I'm not putting him in a Nick Amin worry class, even though he did test well athletically, but he did play all around Oregon's defensive front. It's not like they just lined up and safety and said play safety. He was like a box, he was a deep safety. I think in place of nickel. So he has a very wide ranging skill set. That's what team you're looking for now in these positionless defenses era that we're in. You saw how impactful it was for Nick Amin worry in that Seattle defense, right? Yeah, and you know, I love Nick Amin worry as a prospect, I talked him up. How did we use them as a teacher, the thumbnail for the video last year? Here's the coach, the child for the, for a lot of Oklahoma workout order because he was also a productive player but he completely dominated the gym, yes.

15:22100%. Yeah. So anyway, it sounds like Tiananmen has a chance to be a first rounder if the teams at the bottom of the first round go less on what positional value and more on just getting the best available talent. Right, I totally can see a world where that happens. So I'm trying to get Amin worries athletic score. It was 91, by the way. 91, then see that's why this classroom down to me. We did the highest here was Tiananmen at 86 and then the next highest athletic score. I think it's 80, right? That's a big drop off. You got a couple of guys tied for it but that's a kind of a big drop off. It is but I feel like they're all relatively consistently in that same range and I feel like where that range is athletically is more than acceptable for starting safeties. So I guess that would be more my overall point.

16:23I do get a little optimistic in these evaluations and I mean, Freak may have been a little too far but I can't renew in sometimes. Yeah, I think so. Listen, I get excited about this stuff. I think it's really fun and it's great. Awesome. Another guy who has been talked about and this guy is actually 15 on Daniel Jeremiah's top 50. So this guy is ranked even higher than Tiananmen is a man who will make Neil Warren, a Toledo guy who I believe he overlapped for a year with Quinyan Mitchell and Toledo defensive backs. Don't do well in the league, right? That's what everyone's terrible. Yeah. Imagine that you're gonna put out two first rounders. Yeah, good for them. If this guy goes in the first round, that's pretty impressive. And a lot of that is their coach by the way who's no longer there, Jason Candle. He's now, I believe, the Yukon coach but for those who don't know, Jason Candle, the Toledo coach, was a teammate of both Nick Sireani

17:26and Matt Campbell, the Penn State coach at Mount Union under Coach Karris who is like, is now all of a sudden has a tree. It's unbelievable, right? It's a pretty good coaching tree right there. Pretty good coaching tree, no doubt. Yeah. What's the doubt about McNeil Warren? Yeah, I mean, look, there's nothing that medals in our Olympic style, which by the way, I did make them darker. So hopefully that's just a great role. Like me, I was so much, I'm like, oh yeah, this guy's definitely going to go cold. This guy's silver, this guy's bronze, yeah. But there is nothing that's crazy in that regard. His 40 is right within that acceptable range. Like I said, four, four to four, five, you feel pretty good about for safety. He's at four, five, two, that's acceptable. His split is fine, it's one, five, eight. I mean, that's fine. His verticals right about over where you'd want it. Well, like I said, about 35 is where you're looking. He's at 35.5, so that's fine.

18:27And then broad is good at 10.02. You know, you don't really want to see the broad in the nines, typically, that's for safety at least. Again, it's very position dependent. And then as I've let us see him at 75. So I think 75 is great. Like I think a good example is like Kyle Hamilton. Okay. His was 73, I think. Yeah, I remember he got knocked for not blowing it up at the combine and everyone was worried about his 40 speed. Yeah, that's one saying like I think anyone over like 72 is competent enough to start at safety. And then if you get to that upper area, you know, that's where you feel really good about a guy athletically, at least. Right. So these guys more than pass the muster is what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I was confident. Sorry. What were you saying? Well, that's just why I feel confident in this class, at least being pretty deep, at least athletically.

19:29Right. You see a pretty good middleing of these guys, like they're all kind of grouping together. Which is right. All right, so those three guys we just discussed, Downs, McNeil Warren and Tiananmen are all the likely is to go in the first round, if not locks, right. I think everybody after that is going to fall into place from round two and on. Sure. Anybody, so who jumps out at you here from an athletic testing standpoint? And also from what we know about their production. Yeah, I mean, look, there's a couple guys that you have to talk about, right? Like Lorenzo Stiles, Jr. Yes, right. Starting with four, two, seven at safety is insane, having the best split at one, four, nine, insane. And again, well over that 35 vertical at 39. And those were the only tests that Lorenzo Stiles did in 80. And it's hard because he was next to Caleb Downs. So makes it a little difficult to say, like,

20:31maybe in a different class where Caleb Downs isn't here, Stiles gets talked about a little bit more. But his production score was not great. And there are some flaws to his game, for sure. But from an athletic standpoint, I mean, you have to, we have to talk about him. We have to talk about him. Absolutely. He ripped the, like you just said, he ripped it up in the 40. Do you have any more comments on him before I go to my next? I was just going to say, is it rare to see a guy who can run a 40 like that? But then per se doesn't have outside of the 40 in the split. His others, well, I guess he only did the vertical. He didn't do anything else. See, this is a guy I would have been really interested, because usually if you are a freak of nature that can do that, you can probably master other athletic testing too, right? And so I would be interested if he had tried. I mean, even the vertical, 39, you said a good one is 35, right? That's what you're on here on.

21:32So he's like, he's pretty above 39 and 3950 was the third place, the bronze medal. So he was pretty close to meddling on that too. Yep, exactly. So impressed by his athleticism. And then two guys that I really just want to talk about a little bit, Jalen Kilgore, who we talked about a little bit, he is very interesting. I mean, he had the best tide for the best broad jump at 1010. His shuttle was the second best, there's only three guys running it. That doesn't really mean that much. And his bench was the second best, there's only four guys doing it. So again, it doesn't mean that much, but it does very interesting prospect athletically. Yeah, I wonder if guys like take a look at the list, by the way, and say, oh, well, jeez, there's only two guys. I'm going to get in this, and I'm automatically going to be a top three finisher. To be fair, they don't care about meddling in my charts, though. And unfortunately, no, I know that, but I'm saying,

22:34like, even if you just know, like you only have two people who are you're competing against, not competing against, but we're also in the same category. I think the only reason I would say no to that is because teams have a sophisticated understanding of what they're looking for athletically. And again, not every great prospect is going to meet these thresholds, because not every person is the same, but they have historical data on like where guys tested in the past. So I feel like in order for you to do these tests, they need to hit a certain threshold just to even like being the best when there's only one guy doing an event doesn't mean that much if you're testing numbers are not great. Of course, that actually makes a lot of sense. So what else do you want to say about coer? No, I just, I think I said what I needed to, what I will say is maybe one day, they will care about meddling in our charts, because that's what I'd like to get to that level for us. And inside the data, yeah.

23:36We will create the ITD meddling and we'll have them like made and then we'll hand them out unknowingly to combine participants like three weeks later, like, oh, by the way, here's your, your silver for the fraud jump of the combine and they're like, what, what do I do? I love it. Hey, if you're like me, you're desensitized to the dozens of notifications on your phone every day. But if that latest ping is from your security camera, ignoring it could spell disaster, picture this, someone's breaking into your home, but you're giving a huge presentation at work or you're at the movies or you're 30,000 feet in the sky on a flight. You'll see the footage in a couple hours, but by then it's too late. That's why I choose simply safe. Simply safe is a customizable whole home security system back by 24, seven monitoring agents. I can rely on to act even when I can't, I use simply safe and you should too. Listen, traditional security alarm systems, they only act after someone has already broken in, but that's too late. Simply safe, active guard outdoor protection can help prevent breakings

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26:42And so I think there's just an affinity for me to say Stukes, either way, would be really cool. I'm very impressed with his athletic profile. I mean, he's right there among, you know, some of the better players, a 4, 3, 3, 40 dash, a 15 split, great, both excellent thing, excellent testing measurable, 38 vertical feel great about it. The 10, 10 broad tied for the best. Again, everything you tested well in every single category, that, that, great. That's going to help this kid a lot. I mean, this kid come like, maybe he's a day two kid because of this too. Sure. I think so too. So people know if you don't, if you're listening, and you're not looking at the chart, gold in the broad, silver in the split, bronze in the 40 yard dash, so I have that correct. You have that correct. All right. Now I can read these charts. Good stuff. And I think I'm trying to look, did anybody else take home a gold, a silver, and a bronze

27:46on this list? There is someone that took home two golds and a silver. Yes. Let's go to him. Genesis Smith. Yeah. Great name. It, honestly, this way, can I, real quick, the date of trade and stokes in Arizona, there you go. You know, it's crazy. There's, there's three Arizona, uh-huh, these, unless, unless I meant to put Arizona state for one of them, I don't think so. Okay. Well, poor Dalton Johnson, who's the third Arizona guy, did not meddle in any of the, well, these two athletic freaks are just taking home gold, silver, and bronze. Yeah. It's, it's crazy. Do you, do you have any insight on any of these guys? You know, I don't, I haven't really, we haven't done them safety yet with Greg Cosell, um, yet, and, uh, the only guys I really have been focusing on so far were Downs, DeNamin, Mick Warren, um, Mick Neil Warren, the guys I thought, I know a little bit as a key Wheatley, because obviously you and I have a, of a Penn State tie and I completely expect,

28:50I didn't expect them to not participate in almost all the events. I knew he was not, athleticism is not his game, you know, that, you know, I mean, he's, uh, he's a good safety, I think, though. By the way, they all are Arizona. I did not make a mistake. I didn't think so, but I was just, got me nervous, though, seeing three Arizona guys, um, but yes, it's a key Wheatley, let's, let's take a second to talk about him. Okay. Um, a little disappointed, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, in a lot of reasons. One, his vertical is below where you'd want to see it well below, well below, um, his broad is fine. I mean, it's over 10, which is kind of what you're looking for, right? Um, but he didn't test anything else. And it's just, it's, I don't know. I don't know if his film on its own would justify taking him anywhere past like a, a flyer late rounds. Yeah, yeah, you don't normally see guys who are day two, day three, you know, fighting like opt to just sit on their production, you know, especially they didn't

29:51have like, you know, it's, they're not like a Heisman finalist or if they weren't a whatever trophy winner that, you know, like for the best, I forget who the, well, who's the safety trophy that named after? Or is it just the back in college, right? Yeah, I, I, listen, I play NCAA all the time, so I should know this, um, no, I know, I feel like I know all the other, the Walker award, the David O'Brien award, I think it might just be defensive back. Yeah, I think it is, but I don't even remember who the awards named after. Is it, it's not, is it the, the, the, the receiver is the Fred Blitnikoff award. I literally can tell you all of them, but I can't right now think of, uh, the college award for the best event. Oh my gosh, it's Jim Thorpe. Of course, that makes sense, makes sense. So yeah, so what my point was saying was if you're like a Thorpe award winner, right, and you're a safety, then you're fine. Like, you know, but you can sit on your production, but he was not. Yeah, it's a little disappointing in, in my mind, um, and, and what he did test that, I mean, you have one that's not good and one that's okay. Yeah.

30:52So that wasn't great for him. No, I don't think so. Now, he'll have an opportunity at his pro day. Well, he already had that. I think the pro day you already had. So I don't know if he, uh, I just did a quick Google check and it's said that he did improve on his vertical and broad jump from the combine, but I cannot find the exact numbers. Okay. Maybe I can't give you one second. Uh, tch, tch, tch. Wheatley, Wheatley, Wheatley. So he was a 10, 4 in the broad jump at Penn State. And what was the other thing that we were wondering about? It is vertical. His vertical was a 33 again, not, yeah, yeah, not, not, not ideal. So he did run the 40 in a 462, which, you know, not great. You want to have more four to four, five ideally, right. So he's not a method of freaking nature. And what are you going to do?

31:52Not everybody is. Yeah. 411 in the, um, I'm sorry, not, I'm sorry, not 411, 689 in the three cone. Okay. No. Interesting. Yeah. There's one guy I don't believe we talk about that we need to talk about too. Let's do it. Uh, and that's Robert Spears Jennings from Oklahoma. Oh my God. Yeah. Uh, I think we mentioned him, but we didn't really go into his testing. Uh, we mentioned as someone who had multiple, uh, metals. Yeah. I mean, second best in the 40 at 432, uh, again, freak of nature in that regard. Third best in the split. And you would hope he'd be there with the second best. 40 time, uh, that is also really interesting. By the way, is when you see their splits not necessarily lining up with being the fastest, it just talks about like how they get their speed, right? Like are they guys that can get to that gear faster? Or do they need like a little bit more time? And I, and I do think that translates a little bit more, uh, seeing where they are from their split to their final time.

32:53Sure. Whether they can change gears and how fast they can change gears. Um, sorry, that, it's a exciting thing to talk about. It is. That's the kind of stuff that helps these guys with their dress stock. I mean, especially when you're talking about day three guys, right? And, uh, you know, the team's at value athletic testing will take a look at that. They'll line it up with the tape, but they'll take a chance on someone who Alexa do everything and wows you with athleticism as opposed to someone who doesn't do anything and isn't the greatest athlete and may not have the greatest production. Absolutely. And then his vertical was right at that 35 threshold. And then the broad jump was 1005, which is pretty good. Yeah. Not too far away from the bronze medal at 1007. And then his shuttle again, only three people did it. He was the worst automatic medal or though it 443. The worst of the three. The worst of the three third best. Yes, still third best. All right, good stuff. That is a look at the athletic testing for safeties.

33:56Very exciting. And of course, again, it's a it's a position that the eagles will be laser focused on at some point in the draft. That would be surprised if they came away from their entire draft hall with the nine picks that they currently have. We know that'll change, but if safety wasn't somewhere, uh, you know, in their draft hall, when it all said and done. Yeah. All right, that will do it for inside the data for Sam Finkel. I'm Jeff Mosher. We'll catch you all on the next one. Yeah. The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma are built to keep going, blending rugged muscle with precision engineering, all supported by Toyota's time tested legacy of dependability. Step into a Tundra and feel the on yielding capability with the available high force max engine. Tundra puts out impressive power torque and towing performance and the roomy high

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