Inside Chicago’s Corrupt Justice System | Former Homicide Prosecutor Gregg Owen

0:00This is Belie, one network, every topic, everywhere. Hello friends and welcome back to the rabbit hole. I'm your host Danny and today we're going behind the courtroom doors to talk about a side of the justice system. Most of us will hopefully never experience firsthand. My guest today is Greg Owen, a former homicide prosecutor with the Cook County State's attorney's office in Chicago. During his career, Greg prosecuted more than 60 murder cases and became the first chief of the gang prosecutions unit in Illinois. But today we're not talking about how murder cases are solved and prosecuted. We're talking about what happens after investigators believe they know who did it. When witnesses disappear

1:04or become too afraid to testify, when gangs influence what happens outside the courtroom and when alleged corruption begins influencing what happens inside of it. Greg's new book Convergence tells a story of a real double murder case he prosecuted. According to Greg, the murders were solved within days, but it took four years to actually bring the case to trial. And Greg has another interesting chapter to his story before becoming a prosecutor. He's been years as a touring rock musician during the 1960s and 70s. So today I want to find out what someone who has spent decades sitting across from murderers, witnesses, juries, judges, defense attorneys, and alleged corruption believes the average person completely misunderstands about our justice system. Hi Greg, thank you so much for joining me here on the rabbit hole. Thank you. I think I'm supposed to pretty was Danny. Is that right? Yeah. You can call me Danny L if you want. If you want to go hold my full government name, that's fine. I may go back and forth, but is it really D.A. and I?

2:08Yeah. But I figured, okay, yes, hi Danny. Hello. I am really excited. So I got the email and I was like, this doesn't fit with my podcast because there's no conspiracy behind it. Then the more I was reading into it, the more I was like, wait a second. Everything that you are talking about is like a conspiracy, right? All this corruption, all this like the crazy things that happen, especially in Chicago. Can you kind of like start with how like with your background and who you were in Chicago? Well, I mean, real quickly, I was a touring rock musician in 12s, about 25. I went to college in law school, never stopped playing played all over the country. And then I made a big decision and I decided to change my life. I don't say transition anymore. I say transform. So anyway, so I saw a bulletin board. It said that my prosecutor in Chicago was looking for interns and I thought, well, if I'm going to change my life. So I took a map on it,

3:08it came in interns six months later. I passed a bar exam. I became a prosecutor in Chicago Colc County. All right. Started out in misdemeanor court, moonshield, like shoplifting and petty, you know, nothing serious. But within, I don't know, I've been a month, I was signed to a place called 26th in California, which is the criminal court building for the entire county of Cooke Andrew County. All the big murder cases and stuff go there. And I was there for about seven years there and one year as a misdemeanor. So a prosecutor. So I spent a long time prosecuting murder cases a long time. And there's a lot of murders in Chicago. Yeah, by the way, I had three insanity defensive. So I'm somewhat familiar with what's going on out there. Massive chooses like been on both sides of that too. But aside from that, yeah, there's there the murder rate I can 1980 and that was the time when I was had become appointed the new chief of gang prosecutions. The first actually, the murder rate was 891 there here. That's a lot of

4:12murders. That is a lot of murders. What was gang violence as prevalent then as it is now? It was, it was some ways better and worse. It's hard to explain because it was organized then. It was gangster that 25, 30,000 members and there were leaders and they were like gods to these gang members. Yeah. But so so the violence was more like how do I say it? The violence was more destructive or more evil in a way, but it but it but it was there was an element of control. You sort of knew who the rivals were and what they were fighting over. So you had some idea where you're going. They tore down some of the biggest public housing buildings in Chicago at about 2013, 2014. And as a result, those buildings, those locations between them at 75,000 gang members, known gang members. So once you hear all those building zones, people have to live somewhere, right? Yeah. You've got rival gang members from one place moving to a certain area of the city,

5:15where everybody had family or friends or cousins or whatever and living across the street an arch rival. So Chicago was a very segregated gang structure now and it's just it's more of this random shooting just because I don't like you and you know it's it's not as much like it used to be really now they still do, but they really control drug trafficking and most of the vice back then. And now it's sort of broken up in different little factions. Can you take us behind like what what it looks like in I guess like a perfect murder trial. What would it look like to like prosecute that? Perfect murder trial. Well, I've never had it because back when I was doing it, there was no DNA had been okay. I don't say not a bedded there were no cell phones, no close circuit TVs. None of the resources that you know the police and everybody has now which makes it quite a bit easier. So we would have to rely on witnesses.

6:15Because I was telling somebody I tried 64 jury trials, 61, two murders, 62 murders. I never once had a finger print the case. Not one. Wow. Well, yeah, there's never fingerprints either they don't model. They don't collect them right. So your your cases were based on how well you interacted with the witnesses and how well they were prepared and that was a big challenge. You know, I'm as obviously I'm a Caucasian man who was raised in the Minnesota. I walk into an environment where it's quite different and I would have to have a rapport going with people that came from a totally different world. I was helped because as a musician I played for 10 years. I played with every ethnic group in an earth. So I didn't have any, you know, like hang-ups dealing with anybody because I'd spent my life with them. So that was easier for me, but it was still, you know,

7:17you're dealing with an environment that's so different than I mean, tragically and horribly different both I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So the perfect murder case then would have been a confession. I wouldn't I wouldn't this maybe maybe if a firearm was used as the one thing we had if a firearm was used and we had a victim who was there was enough of a shell or a bullet frame left in them or so found near them. We could do testing. We had the gun. We could test fire. We could see if that gun was used from that murder. No, those are the things that I say will be a perfect murder case. Okay. Yeah. So. And about how long does it take to like prosecute a murder? At that time Cook County, I've never over two weeks unless it was John Wayne Gacy who was the yeah. The biggest mess. Short of that I mean 10 days, you know, maybe five, yeah, seven, eight

8:20trial days. It was pretty fast. It wasn't we didn't they weren't drugged out. Because we didn't have the other. Right. Yeah. When did you start noticing corruption like in the county or like in is it just in that courtroom? Like how did you how did that come about? Well, like I said, I started as an intern. So I was really ignorant. I know I I've been in a band one day next to him and a courtroom. And you know, it was like I got dropped out of a spaceship into a form planet because it was so I had never I never even been a court. I mean, that's a weird mood court, but never a real court. So I walk in having been signed there. And it was like I started to notice that they're always like the same four or five lawyers would be in that courtroom every single day. Now, I said, I'm naive. And they'd always win their cases. And I watch and I've taken myself, you know, they're not very good. I wonder why they get off. And then there'd be some

9:21really, I mean, outstanding lawyers come in and they lose. And I couldn't figure that out like I was able to try cases even before I took the bar exam because there was a new rule that was enacted because of the level of crime. So I try cases against these crummy lawyers. I lose every time. But if a good lawyer came in, I'd feel like when I'd win and I wasn't just a new kid, I didn't know anything. So it took me a little while and then I started noticing people putting envelopes on the cloaks desk. He'd take those envelopes in the back. And finally, there was some real prosecutor, real lawyer who asked me, I already would, are you a dummy? What's wrong with you? I said, what do you mean? Those things on the table, everybody's taking money. So as I started watching, I started noticing and it was outrageous to say the least. I mean, it wasn't just that courtroom. It was all courtrooms, particularly in misdemeanor cases. I mean, they had a whole system created the way they set up this corruption. I mean, it was, it was, it was complicated, but it

10:27was sort of simple, you know, like person gets arrested and they're misdemeanor and they're buying to say $100. Well, they post to 100 and then they, you know, 1000, but they post to 100, 10%. And then when the case is over, the defendant or somebody gets $90 back because the county always kept 10. So there'd be a $90 amount of money available to somebody. Well, these crummy lawyers every day would somehow show up and they'd end up with five or 10 clients each. I'm wondering how these guys get these clients. Then I realized the clerk will go through the court files and anybody that had a case up that day that didn't have an attorney's appearance file, he put them in a separate pile. And then before the court opened, he'd call out and need people while I walk in, before the court was open, each out hand on the file. So what they did was they made a decision, needs the ones who are going to throw out because and here's why. The defendant would be finding that guilty. The defense attorney would say judge, I'm making a motion that his bond refund be sent to

11:33me. The defendant would agree to weeks later that $90 per client would be sent to the defense attorney. Well, they were doing five a day, these five guys, that's 25 cases. So they're doing about, you know, 450 a day, which was a lot of money then, but what they would do with they would take those bonds and they deposit them in their bank. And then they would take cash out like two weeks later and they would take $30 for the judge and 10 for the clerk. So they'd keep 50 of the, you know, 250, but the rest would go to the judge. And other was five lawyers doing this. So when you think the judge was getting 150 from each lawyer every day, five lawyers, 750 a day. Yeah, that's crazy. You know, those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat? The sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of pants or the T you somehow always reach for first. Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy. And that's what quince does best.

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13:42just keep your eye on dollars divine. I go, I was like, he goes, oh, he's such a crook. And we all know it. I mean, we wouldn't actually see the money changing hands. But again, the same group attorneys, they would go, they'd be a group on one courtroom, another group in another courtroom. And we would call them miracle workers because they never lost, you know, and they were terrible. They were crummy lawyers. And this was going on everywhere. And you got to the point where you knew it. Yeah, you knew what was happening. And it was even, it even was out more outrageous when I got transferred after about 10 months, 26th of California. And I was assigned to the murder homicide, violent sex crimes, courtroom for preliminary hearings. So if somebody gets arrested for murder or rape, the case with first go in front of this judge and he would determine whether it'd be probable cause to hold it over for a trial. Well, this judge in this courtroom

14:43had a clerk. His name was Lucius. And Lucius had been the bodyguard from Hamad Ali. And I like him. She's like, I have to answer. But since it was a preliminary hearing court, there was a jury box with never a jury. And when I was told one guy that transferred, when I got transferred there, I was told this, keep your eye out because if Lucius sits down in the jury box, that means the defense attorney is paid to bribe. Every little time he be in that box, the judge would find no problem cause on a murder case. I mean, seriously. What the heck? I mean, no, it was, I mean, this all came out eventually. And this is not just me talking. I mean, this was exposed. And it was, it still is considered the largest investigation and prosecution of judicial corruption history of America to this day. When did it all come out? It started, it started being the investigation unbeknownst to us started in early 1980 and it got exposed by the beginning of 84. And for four years,

15:46a former prosecutor who, who pretended to be a crooked lawyer was wearing a wire. He was employed by the FBI and coming in for undercover agent. And he had wires on 100 judges. Wow. I mean, it was, I mean, that's crazy. Paying a money and actually discussing it got so bad that they were able to get a federal order, judicial order to bug a judge's chambers. And that's that's pretty bad. Yeah. That's pretty big. Yeah. Wired literally into his chambers. I was phone. Yeah, it was, it was beyond, I mean, it was the sad thing is we all knew it was happening, but we didn't, we couldn't prove it. This guy had the courage to go undercover and expose the whole thing. They called them the mole and the mole, the mole. Yeah. Very famous, very famous case, cases. As a result, 16 judges went to federal prison, 48 lawyers, 12 police officers, a bunch of

16:47clerks. I mean, it was huge. And they got big sentences 10, 12 years, 15 years, these judges. The government took it serious. I mean, they really, what's as good? Well, yeah. I mean, it really did change the system. I left the state's attorneys office in 84 and for a period of time, I was a defense attorney. And you could tell if everything was different. I mean, not that I was a part of any of that, but new judges had been appointed. And we knew a lot of these younger judges that would be appointed never straight as an arrow. And they cleaned up the system because everybody was paranoid. You don't want to get caught. Who knows if there's a tell another mole out there. So, yeah. Well, and like they're sending people to jail left and right because they're judges and that's part of their job. And then now like they're going to jail too. So you're going to go to jail right next to like a bunch of gang members. You just sent to jail? Yeah, it could depend because in this case, they are all were convicted in federal court. Okay. They didn't, they were in federal

17:50judges, but you're still in with people that don't like judges that much. Right. That's not have been countable. Yeah, I bet not. And I knew I've or knew every single judge to either work through front of them or knew who they were. And there was a couple that shocked me. Is there still corruption happening like probably not obviously not in that scale? Like, do you still see the corruption happening today? Like can you like look around and see what's going on? Well, yes. Yeah, I mean, you know, Chicago, we got alcohol, we had alcohol, I think the city is was baptized in real strong corruption at that point. I think because it the crept so much into the judicial system, police department, every every area of water department that you name it, public works because everybody was being bright. And that went on for a long time since Chicago was a history, which I'm not proud of, but I mean, it has a history of this kind of stuff. So I would say now it may go on, but it's far more sophisticated and not as obvious.

19:00I think that we like as a population, we are seeing some corruption, but it's hard to prove and it's hard like kind of like how you guys like you knew what was happening, but you just couldn't do anything about it. I feel like there's sometimes like we're seeing that and we like what can we do about it? Yeah, no, and you're right. And I mean, you can most of the time, you can sort of feel it, right? You can sort of feel it. And there's even, but then again, I think also what's happened is everybody, you know, you're talking about conspiracies, right? And that's a big part of this. Well, the challenge in times with conspiracies is some people think everything is a conspiracy, no matter what it is. And there are plenty of conspiracies. Don't get me wrong. I mean, they were a ton of them. But now people have to be a little more, think about this a little better, you know, I mean, what are we? Is it really? But then, you know, the problem is when it's exposed, it sort of shocks you and then you start to think of maybe there's a lot of conspiracies,

20:02because you never thought you didn't think about it. Yeah. So that's sort of like it is. I mean, there are definitely conspiracies going on between agencies and lawyers, but you know, like I said, how do you prove it? Yeah, you're going to talk about the murder in your book. Sure. I would love to hear more about that. Well, the book first was called convergence. I can see you probably displaying this in a perfectly location sort of corny. Anyway, but yeah, it's a case that's not about who did it. It's about why did it take four years to bring the case to trial? And why was the ambond for four years for a double murder? And why was this case transferred to a court facility that never ever, and even now it's never had murder cases? And why was it that the judge who the case was assigned to was a close friend of his depenitorium? So those were the things that made

21:04this case go odd and odd and odd. There was only one witness and I witnessed believe it or not. And this was a double murder involving a guy that was allegedly friends with two people he murdered. Young, they were all 24, 25 at the time. And the victims were GM Macino and Tinker Moore. He was 24. She was 22. They were at her apartment. They had invited a friend over his name to Sevric and sent him to Gazera to pick up some money. Now there was a small time drug deal going down. I mean, not big. I mean, you know, between the front was it? I mean, I wasn't like a pop-up ask-a-bomb. So anyway, so there at this girl's apartment late at night and the one of the male victim, Jill, he calls up this other guy. His name was Mitch because he knew Mitch was looking to buy some coke so he calls him up. So Mitch shows up. He and Jill go into a bathroom to make their deal. And while in the bathroom, the eyewitness hears a struggle and then he hears a loud

22:07like girl and he goes to the door and he pushes it in and he can see his friend on the floor and blood coming out of his throat big time and he can see a knife by the door like a butcher knife. So all of a sudden the friend's girlfriend starts yelling at the guy in the bathroom and he calls him by his first name. Now the eyewitness had never seen a guy before. So he's like, oh my god, these people don't know each other. He didn't know where he was. And so the eyewitness gets scared because he's there. Got some drugs. He throws the drugs to her and he runs out the door and he's alone with the killer. And then he goes and calls the police shortly thereafter. He goes to see where he went to his girlfriend. So where she was working as a waitress and they call the police and they get in the car and drive back up to the crime scene to see what's going on. There's no police. One interesting note was when the killer was in the bathroom after he had just stabbed the friend who was on the floor. The eyewitness there had been a handgun in the

23:09apartment. I wouldn't have picked up the handgun pointed toward the door and told the defendant, killer, you better come out on the shoot to the door. And the killer Mitchell said, they know you're not. I just gave the signal. I'm a narcotics undercover narcotics police officer. My partner's a beer one minute. Now that really scared the guy, right? Oh my god. So when he goes on down and he calls the police and they show up and there's no police, he's talking about conspiracy thinking he's thinking there's a major conspiracy. The police are really in on it. They're part of it because why would they? I mean, we had a tape recorder. We had the tape recorder. I've been calling the police and he's creating, oh my god, there's somebody stab my friend and there's an anties going on and on and on and what we kind of defied is the police dispatched it. That was a prank call. What? Yeah, he didn't send any officers. And there's strong feeling that one of the victims were to survive and the police were to arrive

24:10at that time. Oh my god. These people bled for a long time. You know, no one below in and by itself was fatal, but together they just bled out and that takes a while and it was bad. I mean, so this guy, he's totally freaked out, right? So the girlfriend's got a lawyer a middle of the night to get the lawyer. He calls him all get ready to go and don't say a word. So it became, it was a very messy situation, but what's even more interesting is it occurred like a March 1st or 2nd of this particular year. And I was taking the buyer exam, March 2nd and 3rd myself. So I'm taking the buyer exam the second day and I get done. I thought I did good and I'm excited because I'm going to LA the next day. It takes two months to get the results. Because my own band that I had a lot because they're doing a record out from Mercury Records and I could hang with them, play me, play a little bit on the record. I played Cuban. So I'm in my house unpacking my stuff after the buyer exam, getting ready for the trip and my brother calls, you know, my brother's name is Jay

25:15and he goes, man, right. I'm so bummed out. He said, uh, my friend and his girlfriend got stabbed to death. I go, really? Now, what also happened is that I got out of the cabinet from the birds and before I went out, I saw the evening edition of the paper being put in a box and had lunch, a contractor kind of actress found Swayne. It was a big headway and there was article on the site in a picture of the young woman. She was very attractive. I didn't have any money in my pocket so I didn't buy one, but I just thought it was only count. So he started me there, and say, go wait a second. Where'd they get stabbed? He goes, not too far from where you live. I go, was your friend a contractor? No, he started. His dad owns a big country. I was a girlfriend. What did she do? When she was an actress, I go home, Jay, I just saw the newspaper have like, and he goes, yeah, man, so I never knew these people. He said, yeah, I mean, I'm so bummed on. I was calling to see if you'd go to the family's house with me tomorrow, give us our condolences, which I never knew these people. I said, I'm sorry I'm going L.A. He says,

26:15I understand. Well, four years later, I'd be the prosecutor of that case. Wow. Very case. Yeah, but which I had nothing to do with. I wasn't out looking for the case. Three and a half years later, I was now at 26th of California trying, I tried over 40 jury trials, murder jury trial for that time. So I was experienced. My brother calls me and I talked to him in between, but he called me this one day. I'm in New York, seals. Ray, could you do me a favor? I go, what Jay goes? My friend's family is being told by your office that they're going to dismiss the case against the guy that killed him. I go, was that that case? No, one time ago? He goes, yeah, I go, what do you mean? Is it all the way there? And he goes, no, I said, where's the case? He goes, I don't know. I said, what do we find out? So I start checking and then I found out the case wasn't where it should be. It wasn't a 26th of California. It was downtown. It occurred us, the nebbers. So that made me suspicious. And then I found out he's on a line of nobody gets a bond on the double. I mean, right. He got a bond

27:18and it wasn't that high. And so I go to the time, look up at this case. I get there and I see a prosecutor. I know Sandy and I said, Sandy, he goes, what are you doing down here? Slum it around. I go, I'm just looking for a case. You go, what case? I tell him the name. He immediately has a shot. Look at this face. He says, great. If I was you, I wouldn't touch that case with a 10-foot pole. That's what he said. He goes, I go, what's that case is poison? The eyewitness has taken a fifth. The evidence that was recovering in a search warrant has been stolen from the police lock. What? Oh, yeah. I mean, and we have no, they've demanded trial and we have nothing. We're going to, it was like in three or four weeks, they were going to, the case was up and never been to dismiss it. So I said, let me look at the file. He couldn't find it. What's wrong with file cameras? Finally, he gets on his hands and knees and he looks under a desk. And he finds the court file under a desk. Oh, my goodness. And he talked about burying a case.

28:19For real. But the other, something else he said to me that was sort of unusual. He said, Greg, well, first of all, don't get into a hung up on this. He said, they were just all bunch of drug addicts. I go, what's, what's that mean? What, what, what, now you understand I spent 10 years in a band on the road. So I was quite familiar with drug culture, if you know what I mean. Yeah. So I, I could never even fan them that you're having a party and you're getting high that you deserve to be murdered. But there's people back in that time. They forget, oh, you know, it's funny. The way people used to treat people, people, young, young women who sell themselves on the street, if they got murder, how they deserve it. They're on the street. I mean, that's how people's attitude, best of 40 years ago. So I, that bothered me that even thought that way. I took the file, I opened up, pulled out a picture of the guy. The guy was so wealthy. He looked at one of the nicest areas in the city. Big money. His family was well alone. And it infuriated me.

29:22This guy really thought he was a walk on a double murder because he had money and connections. And it, I mean, I, we were so fed up with corruption. Right. So I, we didn't go undercover, but here, so I call my partner. I go, man, in this case, we're going to be sucks money. We're probably going to lose it. But man, this, this, and I tell him the story. I think of what I was doing. Let's get a transfer over where we are. We're going to jury trial. So we did. And then, then it worked again convincing this eyewitness not to take the fifth. His lawyer had submitted a formal letter. He would not testify. And without him, there was no case. There was no case. But what I went through, what I had to do to get this guy to testify. And it was sort of a, a, a, a, a, Luke that I never even thought of. I'd seen him. I'm up with him three or four times. And he got to the point, why don't testify on that sort of immunity? I go, man, we're not giving you immunity. He goes, yeah, because you're going to charge me with the drugs that were there. I said, no, we're not in any worse. I'm not a, we don't do just on our cake. We don't do that stuff. He goes, oh, no,

30:25I need a guarantee. I said, man, I'm not guaranteeing anything. I'm telling you, you should do the right thing. He goes, oh, I've already done the right thing. I told you, I see it, but there's a trap. But he wouldn't do it. So finally, I said, well, listen, he started, I could tell he started to like me a little bit. So he said, as it said, why don't we go out someday and just hang out and forget the case. He goes, okay, so three days later, I meet a real famous club in Chicago. He's a member. He's a real player. He's got a poor son. I might make an end of government wage. He's got a big money. So we're in this club, but the dance club was really bad. And he's having a drink. I don't drink. So he said to me, and I got to ask you a question, he says, you don't seem like a prosecutor type. I mean, you don't seem like that type. I go, whatever type that is. So he says, what made you ever get into doing this? I just said to him, real off the cup, I go, listen, said that's a long story. He goes, we got all night. Oh my god, I'm telling

31:26my life story. So I told him, I said, well, here's the deal. Make a quick and sure. I was in a band and I started to see, he goes, what do you mean you're in a band? I go, yeah, I was in a band. What band? I told him one name and he goes, oh my god, I saw you play it 50, 100 times. You can't, you can't speak. You play, you play it everywhere. You were what? I said, yeah. And the guys added to Tony change. Then he would testify. Yeah, he'd testify. And he said he would. It's like he trusted me because I didn't have what he thought was a quintessential prosecutor identity or the way you think of a prosecutor. A lot of people and it's off in the mud. And he got up and did the right thing. So I mean that whole situation, I mean, that was so frustrating. And then I needed his ex girlfriend. We weren't made to call. She didn't want to talk to anybody. And I

32:27called her 100 times at police sitting on her house. Finally, she answered the phone by accident. They didn't have, we didn't have like in those days. She didn't have what you knew was calling. And she put on an affected like British accent. I finally convinced her at least to talk to me, but she said, I'm not going down pounds. I met her placed down in a gold coast of Chicago. We should get everything. And she was so standoff. She said to me, I'll be wearing, and I was marched. I'll be wearing a white dress and a big red hat. So I showed before she did so I can check this out. And there she comes. No, let me just say this. She was extremely attractive. I mean, very attractive. But she had a big red hat. It looked like a pirate hat. I mean, with a white dress and a big red hat. So she sent down and I started talking to her. And she's like, I'm not getting in love with this.

33:29And I go, I don't want to give you hard time, but I could bring you a material witness going, you can do whatever you want. But I'm not testifying. And then I tried, okay, now she ordered some food. And I said, you know, I know where she lived. I said, it was brand new, brand new place at the time. I said, you live at Newbury, Glasgow. I go, that's a nice place. She goes, well, how would you know? I go, I've been there. What do you mean you've been there? I said, yeah, I've been there a few times. I stayed the night a few times. She goes, how would you have done that? I go, well, I would be working in Rush Street. It would be three or four in the morning and I'd be done. And I knew some people. I didn't get into the depth of the pen I had. People that I knew who lived there. And they let me stay there. So, and I didn't want to drive home at that time of night. So she says to me, what were you, a bartender? You know, there was all these, at that time, this area of Chicago was where all the night clubs was called Rush Street. So I said, no, I was a musician, she goes, I'm a

34:30musician. Once again, what do you mean me? I said, I was going to be a wet man. I say that name, oh my gosh, she moved her chair. She now faced me instead of turning side by way. And by the time we got done, she says, maybe we could go out and have a drink after this case. It's over with, I was single, you know, I was only 30, 29, 30 years old. So we got hurt, that's the point. And she was, and she was important because she corroborated the eyewitness who we knew the defense would put it on him, saying the eyewitness was to kill her. So we needed corroboration. And then we found a drug smuggling pilot who crashed the DC-6 with seven tons of hot. We found him in Tennessee. And he became other than the eyewitness, the most instrumental person in the third case. Why? Because so, you know, too much before to try, I got trying to put the other case, but I'm just going through the court file, making sure we're organizing. And as

35:32I go through it, I take everything out, I mean, everything out, I'd already done it once, but then I find stuck to the bottom of a file. It's a little, young piece of, you know, sticky note that I had to notice before. And I opened it and unwrapped it. And it said this, it said, Bill Wright, WRGHD, then pilot, TWF or TWD aviation and an Afon number in Chicago. Didn't mean anything to me. Well, as I was looking at down the sheet of paper, one of my investigators walked by and he just happened, I was head in my hand like this and I'm looking at and he goes, oh, TWA, maybe TWA aviation, I went to high school with the owner of that place. I don't really, because I mean, whatever he goes, what do you got? I said, I don't know, he goes, let's take a ride. So we do, we go down the midway airport, we see his friend, we sit down in his office and you know, what's this all about? I tell him, I go, oh, we found this, nobody goes, oh, Billy Wright, sure, I know him, he used to work for me. What do you do? He said,

36:35he gave flight lessons, he says he's a black guy who flew for the Air Force and Vietnam. And when he got out, he got a battle, big battle. He couldn't get a job, he was racing him. So he started doing charter flights and lessons. I said, oh, really, you know, I said, he said, tell me what to, I give him the information. He goes through his file cabinet. He says, you know, when you try to replace, you have to give an itinerary of who's going to be in the flight with you. Now, the key was this, the eyewitness have never seen the killer before. We couldn't find one person and we tried everyone who could link the victims to the killer ever. Other than this eyewitness. And that was a challenge because you're going in front of a jury. And if you can't even establish saying, you knew each other, you know, that's some reason we'll doubt. Yeah. But by the way, my partner, I go, I said, no, it bothers me. So we're talking to the guy, he goes,

37:37when did this all happen? So I give him the dates. He goes, he pulls out all his itineraries for this pilot. He said, we doesn't work for me anymore. He says, oh, but here February, this happened March versus second and that was a leap year. Since February 28, Bill Wright flew geo tinker and Mitchell in the same small plane to late Geneva, Wisconsin. It was a total of three hours. And we knew it was, they were my adult. It was a drug by. And so I go, oh, man, that would be so huge because the first time we could link them together in any way. He goes, well, I don't much help me to be the only thing. Okay, now he's in a tub with the guy's death, right? That's to why we always do that. Stranger life. He's not dead. He's in prison. He's going to get life for what? Well, he flew a big four-engine airliner with load of the drugs. He became a drug smuggler. And it was something wrong with it. It crashed away. That it had a field in Eastern

38:39Tennessee. And he escaped to start on fire. And he got caught. And he said he had seven or eight tons of five hundred pounds of coal. And he got him in a jail. Been there for eight, nine months in in Tennessee. And you're just getting ready to send something to get your life. You know, at that time, a black guy smuggling drugs in Tennessee is not cool. I mean, like he's getting in. You're going to get nailed. Okay, in 1970. So I'm like, I call my partner, my sir, Mike. We got to go to just talk to this guy. Who knows? So we do. So in the couple days later, we get out of play. We go to Nashville. We get on a charter. We go to this Johnson City Eastern Tennessee. And we go into this little town. It was like out of Indian Maybeary, which I don't know what that is. I mean, you talk about country. They still are the signs of white and colored, you know, but I mean, it was out of the Jim Crow. So I'm, well, this is going to be a problem. I can already feel good. That's going to be cool. So we walking in the sheriff's

39:39office. We told him we were kind of, we didn't tell him all the details. He goes, well, how are you all doing? He goes, you know, y'all here to see the boy, cross street that big boy. I said, well, that's who we're here to see. Well, he goes, I don't know what he can do forever. He got some serious problems. I go, we know that. But go on over. So he just deputy takes us over to the jail. And we walk into the courthouse. We go up to the second level. They have a gallery that looks down, you know, when the cages are on trial. And there's like a sort of like a look cage, looking thing in the middle of the floor. I go, one of us says to the jailer, I mean, to the sheriff, what is that? He goes, well, that's when we put the defendants. I go, what do you mean put the defendants? Yeah, man, we're short of budget. We don't have enough deputies. So when we bring one there, we just put them in the cage and go, well, have them when they're on trial. Oh, no, they sit in the cage. I said, do you mean to tell me you guys on trial, they're jury and you're looking at everybody sitting at a cage. That's the best we can do. I'm like, oh, my gosh. I shouldn't laugh. We're like, oh, this ain't looking good, man. You know, we're a crew. We're pretty Yankee's too.

40:45You know, so they take us into this area where the jail now, now sitting in another cage in the jail area. No walls just to cage. It's Bill Wright. He's about, I was about 30. He's about 33. Sit weren't can't you just sit on his little cap and the jailer hits the bars with his key. Hey, Billy, you got some visitors from Chicago, man. And the guy looks up, he was reading, takes me class up, walks up, he goes, he looks at us, we got suit said, he goes, what do you guys mean? FBI or DEA? I said, no, we're from the Cook County States Attorney's Office. And but the first thing I said to him, I said, I got to ask you something, I was a pilot myself. So I said, how would you fly a DC6 along when he goes, not very well, I guess. I think he takes three people literally. It's the hardest thing to fly. He goes, not very well. So I got there. So then we told him and he got real quiet. In fact, he put his head down like this, you know.

41:48He goes, you know, man, I regretted forever that I didn't say something. We're like, what do you mean? He goes, well, when I flew, then I remember this because I knew Jeeh before this. And when I flew him up to late Geneva to pick up a package, he said, his girlfriend and this Mitchell in the back seat, they started making out the second Jeehle got out of that plane. He says, and I knew I didn't say that as a little more drama to him. Yeah. Not only do we have it together, we got like a little red. Now you're trying to catch a moment. Moad him. He said, he says, you know how it is, man, he goes, you just don't want to get in the middle of somebody's stuff and I go, oh my god, I said, which people in the test of bite of this? He goes, yeah. I go, okay, okay, oh good, who? But he says, but you're going to have a hard time getting me out of here. So we go back down, we see the shirt. He goes, son, that boy helped you out. I go, yeah, it helped me.

42:49He says, are you telling me? He said, yeah, man, he can help us when a double murder is a pretty important. He goes, hold on a second, we're standing up. He takes the phone, dials a number back in the day. And somebody answers, we don't know who he's talking to. And he goes, yeah, I don't know, maybe it's clean as to wherever. He goes, I'm looking to talk to my cousin when he's heped up the guy in the chair. It says, I know he's busy, but just take a second. He's like, I got the boys from Chicago here. They really, they want to talk to somebody. They need something done real quick. We don't know what he's talking about. So we stand or maybe a minute later, apparently somebody comes on the other end. And he says that a person on the other end, first thing he says, listen, before I tell you what I'm called, I got a bone to pick with you. He said, you missed a family reunion last summer. My wife made your favorite dish. We're standing at these people. We're talking about, he's talking about a family dish. And he goes, I know, I know how busy you are, but hold on a second. I got these two boys from Chicago. He looks at me, you know, me and Mike.

43:49He goes, what's your name again? My name's Greg Olen. I got Greg and Mike from Chicago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, you talked to him. So he hands the phone. My partner was like, I'm not taking, I don't know what this is. I told him to. So what am I going to do? I take the phone and I'm standing up. I go, hello, this is Greg going on. My assistant takes a turn to prosecutor in Chicago. I don't know why he goes, well, hello, Greg. This is the governor of the great state of Tennessee. The governor of 10. I see. He goes, well, tell me what this is all about. So I run it by him. He goes, so you say that boy can really, oh, he's a guy. Yeah, I mean, you don't know any of them. I'm just thinking he's going to give us permission. At least have a guy brought up there. So he says, he says, hand that phone, give that phone back to that rascal. He calls us cousin of rath. That was funny. So they're talking and then he heads it back to me. He goes, okay, we got this worked out. He says, so Greg, if that boy goes up there,

44:52tells you what you, what tells says what you need in this cycle? Oh, no, no, no, governor. No, if he tells the truth, he goes, oh, I get you. I get you. I know. Now what I need him to say, he goes, well, if he does that, we're going to drop them charges down to a minor amount. He goes, we'll drop it down to like maybe five, five ounces of pie. I'm going to forget the cocaine. I'm going to give him two years. He's already served eight and nine months. He'll be out soon as you're traveling. I'm like, no, perfect. I'm still thinking, this is a five. This was not real. But I could hear people in the background or something. He says, give a call to my secretary, maybe whatever name was in two days when we'll make a raid with us. I did two months later, they flew up to Chicago. He got the witness in a testify. Perfect. Now, as Anna converged, it's me fighting a little note in the bottom of the file. And it turns into all of this and my deputy knows the guy from the flying service. So it wasn't uncomfortable to go there. He finds the thing. I mean, the fact that I even tried to case, I mean,

45:57I was an even lawyer when it happened. And there's so many, like me saying I was in a band, I didn't know to say that. I wouldn't. Right. The convert is that how would I ever think my music career, would have any impact on my prosecuting career? But it did. And I never had, I never thought that. So all these things, and there's even more, I mean, the way the trial was, and the one thing that's interesting, I think for readers is because you're watching all this stuff on TV, there's Lindsey Clancy among others. And a lot of times when you turn it on, you see like a picture of the sea, all the state of whatever or a clock or something because they're in sidebar. In our book, we have what the sidebars are on, there's a corporate. We put every sidebar from our trial in the book. Sidebars are more interesting than trial. Do you sure? What goes on in sidebars will blow, it blows people's minds. What is being sad and what's being considered and how important

46:58it is, people start getting mad at each other. You have no idea. I mean, it's not all like this. It's like, what the, I mean, it really is. When you're behind closed doors, you see, when we did sidebars, we did just stand on the side. We went into judges' chambers. Yeah. Because you knew my partner and I, and we was to get a little bit animated and even want that going on in front of the jury. So we put all the sidebars in there. Plus, it's written from a prosecutor's point of view, which you don't rarely see. You very rarely see a pro, I'm one of the main characters of the book. It's really me. Yeah. It's what I remember and what we did. So it's a different perspective. It really shows the level of corruption. We would have to try cases and begin wondering, okay, who's going to get paid off? What if they get, we have to think, what if this guy gets paid off? What do we do about this person? I mean, our preparation was more than just having to qualify. We have to think through, what if they're going to try to bribe a jury or so or bribe the bailiff,

48:03but bribe the person who takes the jury to and from the courtroom? They have just utter some negative things about my partner and I that could change the jury's minds. So, so to think, I'm like from 28th, 26th to 33, I'm dealing with that. Young woman, dealing with that on a regular basis. So you learned real quick and when it all came out when the investigation was revealed, my operation, great Lord, it was sort of a relief, you know, that you thought at least people are being looked at and something to the pay for this. Yeah, absolutely. So that was, that's, that's a very interesting story. I mean, and what motivated me even to lead music and the things that I learned from that experience and basically turned in my life doing a 180, I mean, what I walked away from, you know, learning, learning things like obstacles don't mean defeat, you know, and you can't just give up and you

49:06have to hold your hold your your your your beliefs, you know, absolutely. Character isn't revealed when things are going easy. It's revealed when doing the right thing you cost you. That's character. So that was how my partner and I we operated. That was our mission was to give the victims a voice because in almost every case, everything is focused on the defendant with, but the victims sort of get lost, you know, and that was our mission, that makes sure they always had a voice. So you brought up that you you try to couple insanity cases and you've talked about Lindsey Clancy a little bit. I would love to get your opinion on that case because it is so in our faces right now. Well, I have, I've got a pretty, a story, a pretty active instrument. I've got quite a few followers and I've done some clips recently, quick ones, moon half, about different aspects of the case saying, what would I argue about as a defense attorney? What would I argue about

50:09as a prosecutor? What did I think of this psychiatrist? You know, because I've done this. I've done before. What is the defense attorney in three years ago? So I'm quite familiar with the insanity defense. And all I know is this, all of a sudden I'm being hit with people saying, well Patrick did it, the husband did it. I mean, that seems to be the theme. I don't like where did this come from? I mean, what? And so I respond and I'll tell you, I'm getting like three, four hundred thousand views by just me responding. And I think to myself, okay, there's a guy that's answering something who was an expert in this field like, you know, a surgeon that really does this. And I'm explaining to nicely in great detail how he couldn't have been the one that did it. And people like, you're full of this, you're full of this. I mean, this has to happen. For no reason, I'm not, I'm not attacking them. Right. But, but yeah, the whole case, I could tell you this, in 1980, the 70s, late 70s,

51:17if we would have had this case by partner, and I think we would have convicted her because of the way the country was. People were, women's rights really have just, it was new. I mean, you know, I think the attorney's office, there were 36 prosecutors in my murder division, three were women. Today, it's more women than men. I mean, it's totally reverse. It's way more. And so, you know, when you talk about people look at them, they would look like, oh, come to me, Bernie, that would just spend their attitude. They wouldn't even consider it the possibility. It's totally different. I mean, for women, I have a daughter, you know, and she just had her second child. And she went through stuff. I mean, she felt guilty in the house. She felt she just didn't want to have to go deal with this. You know, but not to be, to be treated this woman did. But I think that, I think it opens people's eyes to the way mental health is treated in this country.

52:23I was shocked to hear that her first psychiatrist met with her only via telemet. I'm not shocked by that because of how the world has changed since COVID. Yeah, but let me tell you this, I can tell you this, I know for a fact that if you're in front of somebody like this, there's a bite that comes off that you can't get through this medium. Absolutely. You just cannot get it. Now, I understand COVID, but you know, COVID's over, okay? Absolutely. And there was ways to do meat in COVID with mass. I had to have surgery during COVID for my throat. And they did. I mean, I was, I met with the doctor in his office many times. Right? Right? He admits to me my surgery was February 28th, 2020. And I was in treatment to say well, that was in the height of COVID. That was when the hysteria was the worst. Never, never, never. I was no telemedicine. They wouldn't even think of it.

53:26I'd be sitting at the end of a mask on. I had a mask on. But to think that you're a psychiatrist, and part of it is divine. People can tell you all kinds of stories, but there's something to be said with body movement. You know, you can, that's why witnesses, even when they do it on Zoom, I think it's ridiculous, the jury needs to feel something. You can feel it, you know, when you're around people, their body language. That's the word. And when you don't have that, that's a real, that's a problem. I think that because even the, the speaker, so to speak, take her. If you're in front of somebody in life, they can see how you crush it legs with your shake your foot, whether you're doing something fidgety or not fidgety or not reacting properly. You don't get that on these elements. No. I will think. I mean, it's not because I'm old. I just know that in my case, I know that I'm very, I can be a lot more effective in person

54:32than through a device like this. I mean, I've had to learn how to use this, but I think for patients, I don't think it's the right way to do it. That's my opinion anyway. Do you think she'll get convicted on insanity? Or do you think that she'll be like, no, I think the only two possibilities in my mind are a hungry or not guilty because of insanity. I don't, there'll be no conviction. The prosecution has done a less than stellar job in presenting the case and they made a lot of statements. Things were said, see, when you're trying, when you're a trial attorney and you get up in front of a jury and it's the serious stuff and you say things in opening statement, right? Well, the jury expects you to prove those things that you said you're going to prove, okay? And when you don't, I mean, they were hedging all the time. Oh, it wasn't really a suicide it was a fake suicide. Now all of a sudden, oh, that was a real suicide. I mean, the name,

55:34they changed their whole approach. That comes back to hiding it because I'll give you, you watch them to close the guy who was at the press attorney. You know, he's in a read. Remember what they said at an opening statement? He'll go through a line by line by line. He just did it with his psychiatrist. He's a psychiatrist didn't know what he was reading, but he was reading statements from the prosecution opening statement and he said, no, let me ask you a question. Did you come up? Did you see any of the indicators of this type of thing that just he's no idea? In other words, what they said, they were going to show the, they're all scars that said no, I didn't see anything of any of that because they don't think you knew what he was reading. He didn't realize it. And I thought was the best. I mean, he is going to use that in his closing argument. He's going to go through point by point. He's first he's going to tear down their opening statement because it's almost an opening statement. It's sort of like you're promising the jury.

56:38You're sort of saying this, you're making that because you're trying to get them ready for what you're going to prove. And you're telling them what you're going to do. When you do that and you don't do it, then you're going to get something shoved. I'm going to take it right now. You're going to get that. I'll come back to high. You got to be real careful what you say. So I don't know. I mean, another thing. I have never read an opening statement in my life to a jury. If you don't know your case, want to stand up there and say what you think it's going to do, don't be a lawyer. Don't be a trial lawyer. I'm serious. I mean, you talk to any great lawyer. You may have notes at the closing argument because you just want to make sure you brought up this thing, but you don't just sit and read them. I would take I tell a lot of these. I would take a sheet of paper and I put 10 words one through 10 in both this one word one word. And those are the words that would lead me to what I wanted to say. I didn't have to read. I don't look at an area or age or whatever it might be.

57:44These people were reading it. I mean, it doesn't say much. I mean, and that business about the religion, that was who? That's a cardinal sin. As a prosecutor, you could never bring up religion. I mean, I was so shocked. I mean, I don't know if other people were but I'm not watching. I think it was his mother or her mother or ex-mother. Brian's clansies, Patrick clansies mother. And she asked her about, did you don't you know that murder is a mortal sin? I'm like, who based on her Catholic faith? Yeah. And the psychiatrist said something like that too. And I mean, there's some judges with all the keys out just for that. I mean, it was any less serious that case would have been, they called a mistrial with prejudice. Mist trials when you just want, you're saying it's been something so I'm so unfair as it hurt. We deserve to start

58:48over again. Okay. But if a judge says it's a mistrial with prejudice, it's over. She's not guilty. She goes free. Double jeopardy attaches and they can't try the case again. Wow. So you think that she's well, okay. So she gets convicted on insanity. Then what happens? Which you not convicted. Not convicted. Not guilty because of insanity. Yeah. And that's one other thing in Massachusetts. It's quite a much different than Illinois. Illinois, Presky's and Defense Studies can never discuss the possible punishment. Okay. So you're on the jury of mincey clansies case. Now you think if you fight and I killed you, you need to go home tomorrow, right? That's right. I mean, not guilty. There's not, nobody's getting up there and telling you. Especially Illinois, they don't say a word. You're so as a prosecutor, you're looking at these people like, okay. And so as a defense, we can't bring that up. But Massachusetts is different. They're going to be instructed by the judge.

59:55And if you find her not guilty by reason and sanity or criminal lack of a substantial capacity, we can form the conduct of the other phrases. She will be then by court order. She will be remanded to the mental health facility and she will come back yearly for fitness hearings at which time the state can object. You know, I mean, it's not like she walks home. Yeah. Andrea Yates, the woman in Texas, right? Well, she got convicted the first time in 2001 and then there was a retrial, I think 2004 or so, not guilty. She's still in the mental institution. So after she gets out of the mental institution, or like she comes back for this maintenance here, and can she then be tried again for the same case? No. Okay. Because remember, if they say not guilty, that's jeopardy's attached. Okay. Try her again for the same thing. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But what they do is a mental health hearing, there's no jury. It's just the judge. Basically, it's the judge. I mean,

1:00:59the mental, the wherever she's going to be housed, they make a recommendation. The prosecutor makes a recommendation. The victim's family can make a recommendation, but it's ultimately going to be on the judge that is saying whether or not he has been established to him sufficiently that she's no longer in danger to herself or anybody else. That's okay. And I think that's a big thing, because if you're on the jury, you're less worried that she's going to just walk out the door if you find her not guilty. That's substantial. I mean, yeah. But I still think there are jurors for sure that won't vote guilty. I'm not saying they're all going to vote, not guilty, or either way, but I think there's jurors that are going to say, not I don't care if she did it. But maybe not. So I think the worst that can happen in my opinion, based on my experiences, that's something

1:02:04that's the page was based on my experience, that it will be at worst a hundred, which means tough to try the case again. So I have to go through all this again, redevictimize all of them again. And they will do it. I mean, these people will do it. I guarantee you, and a lot of times it comes down to, if they're able to find out what the numbers were, like, was it 10, 2, was it 6, 6? Oftentimes, there's depending on the judge, and even the situation, not everyone, if you find out, let's say it was 11-1 for not guilty, you might not do that again. You might want to figure out something else. It's hard to work anything out in this case, right? What sort of work out? They put their reputation into DA on the line now. I mean, they're going for her first to be murdered. Now, if they would have done something like second degree or involuntary

1:03:09man's letter, I think they would have had a better chance of getting a criminal conviction, because they didn't go for such a heavy burden to prove. I mean, yeah, but like, if we're to believe what happened, like, she killed her three children. Yeah, you can't get past that. I mean, don't get me. When this case started, let me tell you this, I was 100% against her. Not even close. As I've watched the testimony, at me being a baby boomer, I wasn't as aware of post-pired him, and, you know, to me, it sounded like baloney, but then I heard people that had some knowledge in this psychiatry, Dr. Pula President. I was fortunate to meet him like 1980. He was called in by the prosecutor's officer in the John Wayne Gacy case. He didn't testify. I might pause, try to be a prosecutor. So, I, you know, five minutes, I, he was really young, but I know he's considered one of the leading experts

1:04:14in the world on this issue. And if he says that it carries some weight, I mean, what do you like it or not? I mean, the other issue. I mean, and so it has pushed me to a point where I'm ambivalent now, not quite as right-wing prosecutor. I'm worried. Well, you know, I mean, the problem is, anytime you think about it, it's still so horrific. Yeah. That it's hard. I mean, and that's my point. See, you've got to keep mentioning the victims. You've got to put those victims in their face. Not just a client see your, I mean, Colin, whatever, Cora, Dauzet, you've got to consistently be somehow interjecting that in everything you do. Those names have to be in their face every minute. Don't forget them. Don't forget them. And when you get to hung up on a lot of the other stuff,

1:05:15they're going to go into jury room. Are they going to think that deeply about those kids as they should? I mean, because they're going to get to hung up on the psychiatric stuff. I mean, yeah, you start losing your feelings. And it'll be interesting. I just think that all I can tell you is this for sure. That Kevin Renington's one heck of a lawyer. I mean, like him or not, whatever say he's on, he's a great lawyer. I mean, he's a great advocate. Let's put it that way. He does a really good job for his client. Yeah. I don't think he's lying. And I don't think, you know, I don't, you know, I've met my own feelings about defensive terms. When I was a boss here, I don't think he's lying. I think that he truly believes in his heart that you get his problem. Because why would he stick by her all these years? For what? There's no money in this. This is for the fame. I don't know. I mean, this guy doesn't need fame. He's real, Massachusetts. He's really well known. Yeah. I mean, he's talking to anybody. Oh my god, Kevin

1:06:21Renington, he's big time. So I honestly believe that he, there's something in his personal like that he has a problem with the mental health process in this country. I think it's more like that. And this is his ability to take a stand, right? I mean, he's in a position to really highlight the telemed, the constant drugs. I mean, yeah. And that's what he's seen. That's what he did. He took the case off of the kids. He took the case off of her and put it on. He made them the defendants, made the mental health people the bad guys. And I mean, that's what he did. Now, you understand I'm commenting as a lawyer, not right? Yeah. So regardless of the side, he did a great job of doing that. Well, the work, I don't know, I think you'll get a hundred at worst. I mean, that's what I think. Yeah. Who knows what will happen next. But that's

1:07:26my thing about it. Thank you for sharing it. I had a case as a defense attorney. I had three suppressor every one of them guilty. And then I went and tried to practice with my partner, same day. And we had a woman who was about 31, 32 by the same age. And she had some problems, you know, a little bit of schizophrenia. And she had a six year old son. And one day, she started asking him to do something and he ran away. She went and got a pistol, hundred him down. He was under the bed and she shot him five times. What? Yep. And she said he was the devil. That wasn't really. Now, she had some history though. She wasn't like, wasn't as postfire. We're talking about a little bit crazy. Yeah. She re-fathered that guilty. But there was just a mom just a couple of years ago and she drowned three of her children. Like, you have the Yates case. You have, I feel like this is not

1:08:31unheard of. Like, we have these moms killing their kids all the time. Yep. And the question is, like, the issue with, with Clancy is this. Now they, they, they, they, they, they've agreed. She definitely wanted to kill herself. But what motivated her to kill her children was it selfishness. Like, I'll be damned if I'm dead. Those kids are going to be raised by somebody else. That's how I would argue it as a prosecutor. Okay. I would say that. That's what this is about. She, she was so sick with her own motivations that she was, because, because there was testimony that her mother-in-law, she never let them kiss their mother-in-law. Never let them go to anybody's house. So, I mean, she, she, I'm not criticizing her for it. But I mean, if you take, regardless of what side you're on. Yeah. If I was on the prosecution side, I would, I would, I would, I would spend 20 minutes highlighting how she didn't want anybody around

1:09:33those kids and she made up her own mind. But that doesn't give her a right to make up their mind. Yeah. So, you may have thought you're going to be here anymore. But I'll be damned if you have a right to decide no one else can raise my kids. That's all I would argue the case. If I was on that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for, for your input on that. And I'm really excited about your book. I will link to convergence in the show notes. If you guys want to read that, I'll also link to your social media so people can check out your videos on Lindsey Clancy and just keep up to date with you. Thank you, Greg, so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Love your show. Thank you. Until next week, my friends. Stay skeptical. And I will see you all then. Hey, friends, the rabbit hole is an independent podcast run by me, Danny Mercy. Special thanks to Lindsey for research assistance and to Vela Miles media for editing and social media work. If you love the podcast, please leave us a five star review and share it with your friends. Find our socials at rabbit.hole podcast or our website at stay skeptical dot com.

1:10:53You