Bitcoin Is Gold With Teleportation, Here’s Why It Wins | Pio Vincenzo | BFM282

0:00Most people think the risk with Bitcoin is the price going down. My guest in this episode says that's not the risk at all. POVN Genzo found Bitcoin in 2020 almost never sold it, except when he got pulled into NFTs and watched crypto turn into a 27 game of musical chairs. We discuss why a Bitcoin ETF can make sense for your mom, why self-custody still matters and how strategy is quietly building the Bitcoin bank of the future. Is Bitcoin just the best-saving technology ever built or is it becoming the raw material for a new financial system? Stick around to learn why POV thinks that selling Bitcoin destroys an incredibly strong and logical asymmetric opportunity. If you're enjoying my content, it would mean a lot to me if you could subscribe to the channel and like my video to support my journey. Thanks a lot. Now let's dive into this episode. All right, POVN Genzo, welcome to Bitcoin for millennials. Honor to be here, man. You've been crushing it for a long time at this point. Thank you. Yeah, no, I'm happier here. I just told you the stuff I'd love to talk about with you

1:03because I think you are at least my perception of you is that you are more of like an investor slash trader type person than I am, but I see your extremely bullish on Bitcoin, your bullish on strive strategy, et cetera. So I thought it would be a fun conversation to kind of talk about the different ways that people are actually looking at Bitcoin, using Bitcoin, hotlings slash investing, the crypto distraction that we both had. And yeah, kind of talk about the future, like where is it going? So I'm happier here. And I think to set a premise, I think we are both serious Bitcoiners. We can agree that Bitcoin is the only asset, but perhaps we kind of disagree about how to use view or invest in it. So again, this is something that I'd love to explore. So I don't look at Bitcoin as a trade or even an investment. I kind of look at it as a superior savings technology.

2:03So very long time frame. And yeah, just to start, I'd love to hear how you maybe now see Bitcoin or where you came from and kind of like what you are underlying teases it. Absolutely. Look, the way you frame that I think makes a lot of sense because ultimately an investment, right? If I go invest in a property like a house or something like that, or I invest in a company like I buy Apple stock or something like that, ultimately that's, you know, that's the definition of an investment is I'm putting capital to buy ownership into an asset. And I'm waiting for it to hopefully appreciate and value, you know, in hopes that I'll benefit, I'll have returns, right? The thing that's unique about Bitcoin is that while it is an asset, I mean, it is, you know, it's an asset. It's a commodity and most importantly, it's digital money. It actually is, right? So it's the value layer of the internet, the second layer on top of, if the first layer of the internet is just the information layer, meaning that I can send you an email in 50 years ago, I couldn't do that,

3:05or I could look something up on an online encyclopedia instead of going to the library. Bitcoin is that next layer where I can actually send you money and it's not just through a wrapper on top of a traditional bank, just like we've had for, I mean, we've technically had banks for like thousands of years at this point, right? So this is true digital money. So I think that you do get a little nitpicky if you're saying it's not an investment, but I understand why you would frame it as superior saving technology because that's really what it is. It's, you are using a form of money that you can transact with. There's a crowd that does the well, you can't buy a cup of coffee with it or well, it's too slow and all that. But the reality is I can send $100,000 from me to you. It doesn't matter what country I'm in, it doesn't matter what country you're in. And as long as I can pay a very negligible fee, super negligible way less than any sort of remittance company or traditional transfer service,

4:05I directly transfer value from me to you just like if I took a $20 bill or I took a gold coin and I physically put it into your hand. And no one can take it away from us. It's not governed by anybody. So for that reason, I would actually tend to say that yes, your framing is the most pure and best sort of conceptual framing of Bitcoin. However, if I'm talking to some old guy in the United States that wants to talk about investing and stuff, I'll probably just be like, yeah, it's a really good asset. It's a good asset. Yeah, for sure. Now I absolutely love that, right? And it's, and yeah, it's like you're giving me a $20 bill, but you're doing it to the other side of the world, almost instantly, right? There's some people that are actually nitpicking saying, like, well, it takes 10, 12 minutes, like dude, across the world, that's probably instant. And yeah, like you said, for 50 cents, you can send me 100K worth of Bitcoin. So it's funny because I obviously agree with what you're saying.

5:07But I also feel there's so many layers on like how to look at Bitcoin. This is the fundamental layer, right? If it's the base level of value, the base level of settlement, right? It's the layer on top of sharing information. Like this is also sharing information, but it's in a form that it can actually function as a neutral global decentralized money, which arguably is an, how to say, like an evolution of the base information of the internet, right? And on top of that, many things will be built, will fill, et cetera, right? And so that's what I would love to talk about. So if we agree on this, which I think is a great start, right? I think you also talked kind of about like how Bitcoin is your go-to asset, right? So I would assume, you know, we align on this long term, you know, I try to meme a sell for what into existence, right? Like just have me like sell for what? Like what would you actually sell your Bitcoin for? Well, you would probably just spend it later on

6:09on anything you would want to acquire, right? So, you know, we have Bitcoin stocks, we have, you know, ETFs and all that stuff. Are the people that are into that kind of like missing this essential base layer idea, or is it just where they are at in their knowledge? Do you think they understand the risk or like the abstraction involved? Yeah, how do you think through that? You're asking like, let's say some guy just only owns IBIT. He doesn't own any of that. For example, yeah. So I think that I don't want to poo poo the idea of owning IBIT like an ETF or owning Bitcoin treasure company. So obviously Bitcoin treasure company is like MicroStrategy, that's gonna be a totally different thing. The thing about owning IBIT is it does offer a very user friendly way for a non-technical and non, you know, purest person to be able to get exposure to the asset and do it in a way that doesn't risk them literally losing a substantial amount of money.

7:11Because, you know, people get annoyed when you say it so early or they say that it's cringe or they say that it's cliche. But Bitcoin's only like 17 or 18 years old at this point, you know, at most. I came out in 2009, right? It's 20, or yeah, 2026 right now. And so, you know, we're still very early. You saw the cold card, you know, exploit and all that stuff. You're seeing these exploits with these other hardware wallets too. It's still kind of the wild west when it comes to self custody, to some capacity. And I don't think that you can expect people to have the sophistication when it comes to technology to be able to approach it the same way that a guy that has like a software engineering degree or a guy that's been doing BitTorrents and all this different stuff in his life is able to accomplish, right? So I think that the ETFs offer people a very user friendly way to get exposure to the asset. The trade off is that they don't have a really huge part of Bitcoin, which is the protection from confiscation,

8:14the defense against governments, things like that. So someone in Venezuela, I don't think benefits that much from holding IBIT in a Venezuelan account, which I don't even think they can buy by the way. I don't even think they can get exposure to that. But this is just a fictional example. Like if you're in Venezuela, you're gonna want real, like, you know, spot Bitcoin. Like you're gonna want on-chain Bitcoin self-custodied because then you can actually, you know, utilize Bitcoin to be the powerful monetary asset that it is. If you escape that as well, you can take your money with you, that's the dream. You're not gonna take your gold bars, you can't take your money in the bank, you're realistically not gonna be able to take your cash. So that's what it kind of offers. If you're in the United States and you believe that the United States government isn't gonna go complete to Talitarian and you think that BlackRock as a financial institution will, you know, continue to exist for another 40, 50, 60 years. I think that it's fine to hold the ETF. Me personally, I'm not an IBIT buyer, but my mom owns IBIT and my business owns IBIT. And, you know, I would recommend like a very normal,

9:15like a normy friend to buy IBIT at this point before going and buying real Bitcoin just because of all the stuff I've seen at this point over the years. Bitcoin in self-custody is the revolution, but as we've recently seen with the GoldCard exploit, you could have done everything right and still fall victim to faulty software. When I realized I never had the proper setup, even though I thought I had, I knew I needed help and that's how I found the Bitcoin way. Their security experts taught me how the self-custody might Bitcoin the right way with Aircap wallets, backups, running a node, the full architecture. None of their customers were affected by the GoldCard exploit because they had the proper setup. Bitcoin is way less stressful when it's not a solo mission. That's why a partner with the Bitcoin way aiming to help 1,000 people get a 100% self-custody setup so they can enjoy the same sovereignty as I do. You can book a free intro call today with the Bitcoin way team at thebitcoinway.com slash bram. You'll end up with a bulletproof setup,

10:17more skills and a lot more confidence. That's thebitcoinway.com slash bram. If you're bullish on Bitcoin long term, you probably have the same problem I do. You always feel like you don't own enough. Infete's TurboBuy is built exactly for that. Every time you make a recurring Bitcoin purchase, Infete adds 60% extra buying power. So if you buy 100 euros worth Bitcoin, TurboBuy gives you 160 euros of buying power at today's price. Infete charges a 9.9% annual fee on that extra buying power, so the basic idea is simple. If you believe Bitcoin's long term growth will outperform that fee, Turbo lets you accelerate your accumulation today. And the best thing is you can close and settle the strategy any time. Download Infete through the link in description, use code bram at signup and earn 50 euros after 10 completed recurring buys. Now have fun TurboBuying, though set. Yeah, I think that's a great answer. I kind of feel that we are in this space

11:18where the Puritans, I would put myself in the Puritan camp, right? But I think we're kind of running out of Puritans and there will be more, like the group of Puritans will grow in absolute numbers, but percentage wise, right? Like, I wonder how you've experienced that, but also making content and talking about Bitcoin and stuff. Like I still think 99% of people don't even understand the reason why they would even need to own Bitcoin, right? And just a fundamental fact that, you know, field monetary debatement is mathematically assured, et cetera, et cetera. You know, the really bigger thesis where also I think these different properties that you touch upon, right? Like actually having it in your possession, you know, it being connected to the physical world, you cannot just create it infinitely and blah, blah, blah, like all these things are pretty difficult to understand. I would say and take some time coming from the old

12:18field money paradigm, realizing, you know, it's all fake, it's stupid, and you know, all that stuff. So I would agree that an easier step would be to view this investment, right? And then just buy I bid or like, you know, however I bid or BlackRock sells Bitcoin, by the way, I just saw a British Heraldle video where he talks about, I'm just wondering how BlackRock actually pitches Bitcoin, right? I thought it was an interesting question. I have no clue, but it's probably more in the realms of investment, et cetera. So yeah, I kind of think we're in this space and time where the Puritans kind of have to give way to people that talk about Bitcoin in another way, view Bitcoin in another way, because eventually, if more and more people see it as an investment, they have it in there, you know, investment portfolio, they have it in there, 401k or either, you know, pension fund or whatever, that some of those people actually start asking questions, like how does Bitcoin actually work? Where does it come from? Why does it exist, et cetera, et cetera?

13:18And I think, you know, part of those people, all by small, I would say, you know, will overflow slowly but surely into the real thing. So if you had to explain this to like a smart millennial who still thinks, you know, Bitcoin is risky, stock, it waste energy, whatever, like what's the one thing that you would say or use to perhaps make the difference very clear between owning Bitcoin and anything else. So you're just asking about the difference between owning Bitcoin and any other type of asset or owning Bitcoin and I bet. I would say any type of asset, yeah. Sure. So I would say when you think about any other type of asset compared to Bitcoin, you're getting the benefit of Bitcoin being a true commodity that is not governed by anybody, just like if you were buying a precious metal like gold or a material like copper or something like that, right? So you're buying a commodity, but it's a digital commodity that's effectively like a kind of,

14:19it's like a perfect system in many ways and people get like annoyed when you say something like that, but it's this finite money, this finite commodity, truly finite, whereas gold is not truly finite, right? And it's infinitely scalable in every direction as in like, you know, it's natively fractional. You can buy as much of it or sell as much as it as you want 24 or seven. And of course, you can transfer it without that third party. So I'm kind of like rehashing some of the stuff I said in my other responses, but the difference is, you know, if you're somebody that wants to own something that cannot be taken away from you and is not tied to a government or tied to an entity or tied to a corporation, this is the best version of that by like 100,000 miles, I would say by a mile, but it's 100,000 miles, because you're effectively taking gold and you're making it perfectly digital. It's a more stark contrast between the traditional phone and the iPhone.

15:20Like the traditional phone still was pretty damn good. Like you could call people anywhere in the world, it was pretty good. Obviously the iPhone is incredibly good because you can use it as a camera and do all this incredible stuff face time. It's a TV in your pocket. But gold was a, it was a literal physical rock that people just decided meant something because it's shiny and heavy and strong and you could exchange it by giving it to someone. Bitcoin is like a technological masterpiece, a kin to the iPhone. It's just a big, it's a big gap. So I'd say to a millennial person, you know, you understand technology, you're not too old to understand technology. You've also seen currency to basement impact, the cost of goods and services in your life, whether it be a house, a car, food or something else. Bitcoin is the answer to that in technology form. Yeah, dude, I love that. And by the way, it's funny that people are now going back to dumb phones, right? So it's like the iPhone is being challenged by,

16:25provably inferior phones, but that's actually what people want, right? And so when I think about gold, I still want to make a video that's something like gold, gold is a meme coin, right? Like I always use the argument that, you know, I think gold is a good way to kind of give direction to people on how to think about Bitcoin. But I think a lot of people get too hung up in the, how do you say that? Like the image of gold, so to say, like if I say to someone, you know, Bitcoin, you know, if I just had to say one thing about Bitcoin and gold, like Bitcoin is gold with that operation built in, like that blew my mind when I heard that, right? But some people will still be like, no, no, no, it's gold and, you know, the new standard of the world is going back to gold, et cetera. Maybe, and I also think that's why we're early, right? Like someone told me, big investor told me, like Bitcoin is superior to gold, but you got to hold your horses because all the central banks in the world are still buying gold, right? So maybe you're right, but also wrong at the same time

17:25because a lot of people just, you know, don't see it like that and still see it as something fringent, or something that people talk about a lot is the volatility, right? So sometimes I hear these super professional tradfights, people talk about the market volatility, the price volatility is risky, and that's why they're not looking at it, et cetera. But if you view Bitcoin as a base layer of value, it's like the true measurement of basically all the goods and services in the world, and I'd say your thesis instantly changes. So I wanted to ask you about risk, like how do you view risk? Does that have to do anything with volatility or perhaps more with learning how to custody and more like the technical part of it? Yeah, I separate, when I think about risk with Bitcoin, to me, the risk with Bitcoin is like, if the Bitcoin network actually failed, that would be a really big deal because it is a technology-based network. And obviously it's been running TikTok next block

18:27for about 16 years, despite some really big challenges, like when China completely banned mining and all these different things that have happened, obviously early on, when Mt. Gox went down, and the fact that Bitcoin survived that reputationally, and from a user perspective, is pretty incredible. So that's what I think about when it comes to risk, when it comes to volatility, of course the brand new technology-based money that's only been around for 17 years is gonna have some pretty heavy volatility. We're seeing the volatility dampen. I do not think that we're going to put in a new low this cycle, I think the low is in. So it was like 58K, so we went from 126K to 58K. That's not as bad as going from 69 to 16, like we did last time, and it's not as bad as going from what, 21 to like two, or something like that, the time before that. And so the volatility is slowing down, it's becoming less volatile. However, I think that people are so reactive

19:27to the prices of assets going down, and this is at every level, every level of investor in terms of the amount of capital, every level of IQ, if you want to go that route, I have a friend that literally went to Harvard, he's literally a Harvard guy, really smart guy, super talented. And his text to me about either stocks that he knows that I like, or Bitcoin itself, the text really, like no matter how many words they are, what he's saying is the prices down. That's what he's saying. And you know, I have another friend that's super successful, way more successful than me. Same thing, it's the prices down. That's what people care about. My business partner, Nick, choose Rich Nick. I mean, he's Mr. Price is down, right? So I think people really get impacted by the price going down, and it like rules their world when it comes to these assets. And then once the price goes down, they find it really hard to like the asset again. They don't buy the dip, they don't buy the drawdown, and then they get happy again when it goes up, or when it goes up again, they just sell it.

20:28Would you agree? I say this a lot. Like Bitcoin is an asymmetric opportunity based on public information, right? But you need to consume the information. So if you only look at the price or the exchange rate, rather, this is where risk shows up for people, right? Like they feel like everything should go up in a straight line or something like maybe that's a little bit of fiat money damage, or I don't really know, right? Like just that expectation, like, you know, all of these people on the internet told me, you know, this is going to be super huge and valuable and whatever. So why is it even going down? But this is exactly for me a signal, why Bitcoin is an asymmetric opportunity is like, if you know, what's the Satoshi quote, like if you, I don't have time to explain it to you, you know, something like that. It's so true. Yeah, and I mean, I think most people, they expect that when they go put a dollar in any financial market, except for a house, the only one that is, it's not this, because they live in the house. And so it's something that they can physically touch. But let's say they go into a brokerage account or they go into like a crypto exchange or something like that.

21:30And they buy an asset, whether it's Bitcoin or something else. Their firm expectation is a firm expectation is that whatever dollar they put in at the moment that they put in. So it's like, you know, Johnny just put in a dollar on Wednesday at 6 p.m. Johnny's expectation is that that dollar will never be worth less than a dollar from that very moment that he put it in. And when you really think about it, it's like how unreasonable of an expectation is that? Like, dude, you just randomly decided on a Wednesday, you wanted to put a dollar into this thing. And your position is that the market gods need to reward you no matter what. What if another guy has been holding it for six years and he wants to sell it now? You know what I mean? So it's interesting the way people react like that. And then they get so mad when it goes down and they just get interested when it goes up. So they're chasing it on the way up and they're, they're, you know, taking a loss on the way down. Yeah, I, I do think that that is also why, you know, I want to talk about also your crypto distraction

22:33just like I had, but like, I think one thing that crypto distraction teaches you is like a longer time frame. Everything you just said, like kind of letting that go and also be humbled by the way along the way, right? Because every time I buy Bitcoin, it goes down, you know, and every time I sell it, it goes up right, I think that's the classic, that's the classic meme. But I do think that the fact that we are early and I also think that we are right, at least in the underlying thesis were right and we're picking the best horse to kind of like protect ourselves from, you know, summary, fiat monetary debasement is assured, right? So, you know, you need to figure something out. Have you like bought and then sold Bitcoin, right? Like just real realizing afterwards that you thought you got it, but you didn't get it, right? Like just learning that you need this longer term time frame

23:35and not, you know, wake up in sweats when there's like, I don't know, 10, 15% drop. Like what taught you to have that longer term outlook? I was able to develop conviction in Bitcoin. I would actually say fairly quickly, when I first started buying it, it was April 2020 and I was buying it at like $20 or $30 at a time at most and by the end of 2020, so I started in April, by the end of 2020, I had one Bitcoin and the price of Bitcoin at that time, when I first started buying it was 6,000 in change, so something between 6,000 and 7,000. And then if I remember correctly, at the end of the year that year, it ran from like 10,000 to like 30,000 and that's what got a lot of people to notice it. So I broke the previous all time high, that was a really big deal and it went all the way up to like 30K. And so by that point, I had like almost one full Bitcoin. I've actually, you know, Michael Seller actually was a big reason why I was able to kind of figure it out. Is in October of that year, Michael Seller started, you know, aggressively doing media

24:35and the way he framed things, they reinforced, I was already listening to podcasts, I was listening to like the Winkle Boss Twins, when I would see them on podcasts, I was listening to like Anthony Pompley, Anno's podcast, I was listening to Max Kaiser and a lot of these kind of Bitcoin purists. But like, you know, Max Kaiser, he's like an entertainer, he's like kind of crazy, he's super funny. You kind of, when you're thinking about like money and stuff like that, when you're listening to a guy like that, you're like, yeah, he's making sense, but can I really trust this guy? He literally seems kind of nuts, you know? When Seller came out, this public company CEO and was just wicking out all this history stuff and like talking about all this stuff, I was like, oh, okay, this is like crystal clear to me now. And that was kind of when I was solidified as a Bitcoiner. So that was like maybe nine months into my journey. So I haven't really sold any Bitcoin kind of ever when I got distracted by crypto. I think I sold like point two Bitcoins to buy some crypto stuff that I thought was gonna go up more. And I don't even remember if it did, but it might have, because the 2021 crypto cycle was nuts.

25:38And I definitely made a lot of money trading crypto during that period of time. But with Bitcoin, I've been pretty steadfast in really never selling it. And I'm about six, I'm over six years in at this point. April 2020 to now is over six years. So it's been all accumulation. And same thing with like my mom, who's money I manage, she's never sold any Bitcoin and she's got like some solid Bitcoin and stuff like that. And with my business, you know, we have Bitcoin and we haven't sold any. So Bitcoin's been easy for me to not sell. And really all my high conviction stuff like stocks and everything has been easy for me to not sell. Really where I've lost is holding crypto stuff years ago that went up a lot. And I was up a lot on it and not selling that because all the crypto stuff typically round trips. Yes, that is very recognizable that last part. And I think that is what taught me a lot, you know, like all the crypto stuff, I mean, I think I bought Ethereum at like $17 or $17.

26:40I don't even know like super early. And then you know, saw all the NFT stuff. But it was all ephemeral. And Bitcoin just came back every time just being like, you know, I'm just this quite boring thing that just has like you said, TikTok next block. And I came to realize that that is the whole point. Like it feels money creates chaos and crypto, you know, and all this nihilism about, you know, investing. And I think that what was what made crypto like an extreme wild west for me. And I did always approach it like that. But the crazy thing is that just like you, I didn't sell at any top that I have experienced of all this junk that I bought along the way. And then Bitcoin just kept on chugging along, right? That basically showed me this is the only thing I should pay attention to. So yeah, what was your biggest learning from that whole time in, you know, crypto NFT, et cetera?

27:42Yeah, I'd say what I learned and what a Palomine Dan Hilary who I recommend you have on the show if you know he's down to do it. I had him on. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you already had him on. Yeah, he's the man. He put it really simply and it kind of stuck with me is, he was like, as soon as you leave Bitcoin, the risk adjusted return is like the amount of risk that you're taking on as soon as you leave Bitcoin for like a theorem or anything like this. It when it comes to returns is just it's monumental. And the reason being is you're, once you step out of Bitcoin, you're getting away from the baseline. Now, I don't want to sound like some psychopurus. I want to make this really simple and help people understand, right? If you really separate Bitcoin versus crypto, will there be winners in crypto? Absolutely. Last week was the biggest meme coin volume week since the Trump coin, which I don't know if people listening fully grasp that. That's insane. I have no clue. I don't know. Really do. Yeah. So you're talking about a top two week in terms of overall volume and meme coins with the other, the other top week being when the president of the United States

28:44launched a meme coin right before he was inaugurated, right? So pretty insane stuff. So of course, there's money to be made in crypto, but identifying where to be trading and knowing that you need to get in and get out is tremendously difficult. And it's really actually a lifestyle at that point. And what happens is a lot of people develop conviction in these different crypto assets. Ethereum was the first one, obviously. And why did people develop conviction in Ethereum? Because it was cool and interesting. It was different than Bitcoin. It was cool and interesting. And it had a charismatic leader, charismatic in his own way. Obviously, he's kind of an odd guy, but charismatic leader. He's a different type of dude. And ultimately, it was basically free. It was like a dollar to $10 for its initial drop or whatever. And it literally ran from that price to $4,800. So anybody that bought it at $10, wrote it to $4,800, you know, could have written it to $4,800.

29:46And that's this unbelievable return that makes you just question everything in your world. Like how did I, how was I able to benefit from this so much? And then they end up sticking with it. They become like an Ethereum Maxi. They're like, it's programmatic money. What is it actually? It's cool and interesting technology. It's not perfect. It's run by people and an organization. And you know, it's not decentralized the way Bitcoin is. And the people that benefit most from it are the people that are closest to it. The people that have access to it through like, you know, unlocks and stuff like this that are able to sell it and all that. And what happens is competition ends up getting introduced in that world. Every cycle, multiple competitors emerge that are cooler, more interesting, have more charismatic leaders, have better use cases, and have fewer people closer to them. And so you look at last cycle, you saw Ethereum lag and Salana did really well. And then there were some other small outliers like Sweden, well for a period,

30:46there were other outliers that did pretty well. Salana though was the darling of last cycle in terms of price performance. So one from $8 to $270. Very, very good return. You know, even, yeah, by previous cycle standards. This cycle, you're looking at hyper liquid and you're looking at Zcash and you're looking at Salana lag. And you're looking at Salana try to figure out even though nothing's really changed about Salana if anything has gotten better from a technological perspective. And they have better partnerships and better applications being built on it. That's not how the value ends up accruing to the token. The value accruing to the token is effectively just a manic market taking over. And so if the market decides Zcash for whatever reason is the hottest coin this cycle and it's already 10x pretty much since Naval Roboconc rolled out a bed one day and decided that you wanted to tweet about it and try to pump it, you're not gonna compete with Zcash. It doesn't matter if Salana has better TPS. It doesn't matter if Salana has better applications and better builders, right? And hyper liquid's the same thing.

31:48Hyper liquid has a super cool product and a super cool leader. And it's gonna be really hard to compete with that. And then next cycle, someone else will kick hyper liquid's ass and it just keeps going. So you can't get married to these crypto things. Yeah. 100% agree, 100% my own experience. I'd say the second biggest realization, like I come from a background of digital startups and VC investing on the partnership, et cetera. So for me, it was very interesting to see kind of like, you know, the ICOs had a business plan. That was like a document that they called a white paper. Then we got into NFTs and that turned into like a one-page, right? And then we got to the meme coins, where there's like no paper, there's like no concept basically, right? And then we got pump.fun, where anyone can just turn out any coin, right? And so I 100% agree with you that, or I wonder if you agree with this.

32:50Like I see it as like a big blob of, you know, as a purest would say, nihilistic money, just chasing the next thing, which I've seen dozens of times now, right? But while in the beginning with the ICOs, there were people similar to my background who were actually talking about, oh, this could be a potential business. Like we actually had a discussion about the opportunity of the company, whereas right now, it's just like, you know, did Baron Trump buy it or who launched it, you know, or what's his name? Hunter Biden, laptop token, something, something is coming, right? Oh, that's the thing I should, you know, go into and the thing you said about lifestyle, I think is what this is all about. Like this is a certain type of lifestyle and you can make content with it and people follow that because people feel that, you know, they're not able to get rich or have opportunity, but it's just a thing of these times. But yeah, it just stays the same blob of money

33:51going around being exit liquidity for the people that actually, you know, pump it and then dump it, right? Which I'd say is fine, but, you know, for me, it actually showed why, why, again, why Bitcoin is just a different thing, but it's also that you have to experience this, I'd say, right? Like when, you know, get, get money, lose money, get scammed, whatever, just participate in this Wild West to realize that, yeah, boring is kind of good, I would say. Yeah, it's just a different thing. Like the lifestyle is the biggest thing that people need to understand. It's like if you're going to actually make money off of, you know, call it whatever is furthest down the risk curve in crypto. Now it's meme coins. Last cycle, it was NFTs call it or two cycles go, however you want to put it, right? And so, malicious call it meme coins, people know what meme coins are, they kind of get it. I mean, you're literally just buying a ticker, a random ticker that probably came out today. And you're five minutes ago. It came out five minutes ago and didn't exist before. There's a picture and a ticker and you just bought it on a mobile app or, you know, you bought in some crypto wallet.

34:53And, you know, to be able to consistently make money and win in that world, generally speaking, the lifestyle you have to commit to is a lifestyle of being terminally online, probably at a desktop computer, although some of the younger kids are able to do it from phones. And it's a combination of having your trading, you know, terminal open, you know, there's a bunch of different ones that people use. And then having telegram open, because you're in a bunch of different groups with people that are sharing this different stuff. And having capital ready to deploy and being willing to swing significant amounts of capital into things that came out five minutes ago. And are all rug pulls of sorts, because there isn't any actual, you know, value there and you're literally playing musical chairs. And some of which are actual nefarious scams where an overseas team in India is running like a farm that's creating these things and trying to make like $15 every like, you know, 30 minutes and they're happy with that, you know, just to take, if they take $5 from you, they view it as a win.

35:54You know, little third world scamming type stuff. So if you, if you really are desperate and you want to commit to that lifestyle, and have your body physically degrade because of the amount of screen time that you have and your mental health being a tough spot because you're completely committed to just playing musical chairs and being an online communities of people that are obsessed with musical chairs. And effectively, you're just doing a 24 seven gambling thing then you can do that. And if you get to the top level of that, yes, you can make a lot of money. I hope that you take that money and put it into Bitcoin. The problem is a lot of those people don't end up rotating in a Bitcoin because then they view Bitcoin the same as all their other stuff. So if you, if you tweet at like a crypto guy and you say, I'm a millionaire and you have a million dollars of Bitcoin, they're gonna laugh in your face because Bitcoin's going to zero. It's all bullshit. You know, so you're supposed to take out cash, you know? Well, again, why it's an asymmetric opportunity, right? Even for the people that are chronically online and understand what blockchain and crypto is. One thing I do find funny ahead,

36:55American Holto ones tell me, you know, we are eight years ahead of everyone. And I feel like Traffi is experiencing their own crypto moment, right? Blockchain is the evolution. We're gonna tell Kenyze everything and all that stuff. So, you know, I think just being in this for a long time and also, you know, experiencing it yourself, what crypto is and how it works or not, you know, your own experience, I think, if you're curious enough, you will end up here. But I kind of want to transition to, you know, last part of the conversation about the, the financialization of Bitcoin. I see you talk a lot about this, you know, strategy, strive, et cetera. When people say Bitcoin financialization, what do they actually mean? What do you actually mean when you talk about that? And what do you think people are missing? Why is it important? Yeah, I think it's very simply, it's just taking Bitcoin, which is the digital, you know, the digital blockchain and token, right?

37:57That's what Bitcoin is. It's like the system that, you know, is running on its own on the internet. So just taking that digital system and token and integrating it into the traditional financial system of the world, not just United States, but the whole world. And we're in the early stages of that. I'd say step one was the ETF. All right, step one is Michael Seller. Michael Seller's step one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, we, we, we, we got in touch with IDM, you like, how do you manage all these people that just, you know, break their reign on, on, on, on strategy? You know, strategy has gone through an evolution, I would say from actually, you know, being what now might be considered a classic treasury company, right? Like instead of cash, I have Bitcoin and, and in my mind, he pivoted the business model. So, you know, micro strategy became strategy. I think that is the business 2.0 or maybe 5.0. I don't know, you know, the previous, evolution, he's gone through, but I think it's a different company now than it was when it started, you know, buying Bitcoin just on,

39:00the balance sheet. I think a lot of people know why they break their brain is because, you know, they are purests and hate rat-fi, hate wall street, all these things, which I think are, you know, they're, they're very good arguments for hating it. But, you know, do you, do you think this is necessary? This financialization? Does it prove anything for Bitcoin? Is it a victory? Is it bad? Like, how do you see this kind of like different group of people but arguably more capital, you know, adopting, adopting Bitcoin? Yeah, I think it's just inevitable, right? And so, purists, I think, get caught up in their own ideology and, uh, and they're not operating in the real world. So, I'm really big on operating in the real world. I grew up, you know, single parent household and immigrant family in the United States. I always was operating in the real world. It was like, need to make money so that I can pay for rent and pay for my bills and pay for, you know, food and stuff like that.

40:02And sometimes I wonder if, you know, some of the purists operated that way or if they came from, you know, better means where they didn't have to, you know, fend for themselves on a daily basis the way somebody, you know, like myself or anybody else that grew up in with a mod, it stopped bringing operated. And so when I, you asked me if Bitcoin is necessary, you know, for financialization or like, you know, what it means. Just view Bitcoin to me, I would just view Bitcoin as a resource. And so if Bitcoin's a resource, think about it like if someone has a camp, if this is, you know, a few hundred years ago and you're at a Native American camp or something like that, people effectively live outside and in huts and TPs and stuff like that. If all of a sudden a bunch of wood that could be burned for firewood or could be used to build structures that are used to build us like spears like weapons and stuff like that was just dropped in the middle of their camp out of nowhere. They'd be like, cool, we're going to use this stuff. So if you think about it the same way, Bitcoin's just kind of getting dropped in the middle of the financial services industry and the financial services

41:06industry is going to use it. It took a long time for them to figure it out. It's almost like they didn't recognize the wood that was sitting there in the middle of the camp. But now they're starting to like take it and they're taking a knife and they're scraping it a little bit and they're like, wow, this actually looks like wood. I think we actually might be able to use this thing. It's not poison. It's not going to kill us or something like that. And people that own Bitcoin are going to benefit from that. If you own a decent amount of Bitcoin right now, well, guess what? That's going to be worth a ton of money in like 10, 12 years as long as you don't sell it. And once all the financialization has advanced a tremendous amount, you're probably going to be able to use that as collateral. You're probably going to be able to lend that out and people can get triggered because they're worried about Mount Gox 9.0 or FTX 2.0. But the reality is this is how the world works. And so if you have a bunch of Bitcoin now, you're going to be very rich in the future and you're going to be able to use that Bitcoin, either make more money or borrow money and do really cool, interesting things that have already been done before with other commodities and other assets and really cool and interesting

42:10things that have never been done before because it's Bitcoin and it's digital. So companies like Strategy and Stripe have kind of turned the public markets, I would say, right into a machine for them to accumulate Bitcoin. I love that for me, what I really love about is that they're applying this idea of Bitcoin being an asymmetric opportunity to I almost want to say the ignorance of people that still hold Fiat, right? Like they're just giving a big enough yield. So anyone would pay attention and they're turning weak money into strong money, right? Sailors is even telling everyone about it has been on this crusade, but no one is following him, which I find extremely shocking, I almost want to say, right? It's like, well, you know, who actually understands what they are doing in terms of capital allocation, et cetera, and they're still fading this crazy guy. What do you think this evolution of these types of companies actually does to

43:11Bitcoin's role in the financial system? Like do you think these companies will actually become really valuable and other companies will follow or will it show like a different type of, you know, Jeff Walton talks a lot about this, like, you know, the leverage, the debt and all these things. Like, are they going to show a new way of growing capital? Or like, how do you, how do you think true debt? I think at a basic level, like every company is just going to have Bitcoin on their balance sheet because it's simply better to have it on the balance sheet than not. It's going to take a long time for it to get to that point, but that, you know, there's your superior savings technology, you know, comment, like I fully think that that'll be the case. I think that you're going to run into it where once strategy gets really, really big and strive gets really, really big and maybe meta-planet gets really, really big and maybe three or four more names get really, really big. It'll be hard to start these companies from scratch. Basically right now, there's a playbook to build a billion dollar company that's more direct probably than ever before.

44:13You don't need, it's, you know, you can say that Antesla put out the playbook to make an electric car because they did, but you still have to go and make the car. That's not going to be super easy to go develop batteries and do all that stuff. It's pretty sophisticated stuff. Having Bitcoin, if you have a financial background, which many people do, Matt Cole, the CEO of Strive, he's just like a finance guy, right? If you're savvy, if you're smart, if you're determined, if you're ready to like, you know, take the bull by the horns, you can go build one of these companies and you have a fast track to a billion dollars. And that's just like you have to understand that that's insane, right? And so I'm surprised just like you that more people haven't done it. I think it's because people still don't understand Bitcoin. They don't understand MicroShadji. They saw the explosion of Dats, DATs, digital asset treasury companies in 2025 that launched on the back of it was right after MicroShadji's all time high. It was literally just exactly what I'm talking about before. As a bunch of people saw the price go up, they said, we want to do that too. They did it. The price went down 99% on all of it.

45:13Everybody's mad, right? Yeah, it's just like, all right, cool. That was great. Like that was so awesome. But if you recognize what it actually is, you can see that it's going to be, you know, a great thing for those companies. What I'd say to your question of like, how big will these companies get? I think the big ones like MicroShadji and Stripe can get really big MicroShadji for sure. I think we're in MicroShadji 2.0 right now. 1.0 is just the start of the accumulation of Bitcoin and just being a traditional treasury company like you're talking about. 2.0 would be this financialization of the Bitcoin offering these preferred securities to different types of investors that do different things. Very, very interesting stuff. I think, you know, V3 and I don't know when V3 happens probably years from now, maybe several years from now like 5 to 10, it'll be making revenue off of the Bitcoin, right? So like lending the Bitcoin, maybe running some options strategies on the Bitcoin. And I think the revenue numbers are going to be absolutely insane. And everyone is going to say to themselves, how did I not take this company seriously? They had 840,000 Bitcoins in 2026.

46:17And I didn't pay attention. How did I not pay attention to this? Yeah, it's extremely funny because, you know, this is just how a bank works, right? If you understand how a bank works, it's just a stack of capital. And, you know, they're making money on top of it with whatever different types of business lines, slash business models, right? So if you think Bitcoin is the capital of the future, the MicroShadji is the Bitcoin bank of the future. Like, it's not, you know, I jokingly reply to people, you know, it's not that deep bro, but, you know, I don't know, like, it's not, it's not like it's literally not, yeah, yeah, funny. All right, I'm looking at the time. We need to wrap up a bit. So, you know, you told me you're good at short, short answer. So I'm going to test you. So what are the biggest challenges you see on the horizon for either Bitcoin itself, you know, or Bitcoin, Jason type company slash rappers like, what would be, you know, something that would show you that, you know, a strategy is failing or whatever.

47:20Like, what's the biggest challenge you see? I think a challenge for like Bitcoin adjacent stuff, like the corporations that have Bitcoin would be political climate and how, you know, in the United States, the political climate is really, really polarizing and it swings really hard in both directions. So something like that could potentially put them, excuse me, in a spot that is tough, you know, temporarily. I kill the company, but you always have to kind of throw that out. I don't really like other than that, it would just be stuff that relates to the price of, you know, Bitcoin and stuff, but I feel like no matter what, just given the adoption curve, the power law, the price of Bitcoin is going to gradually grind up. So what makes you the most bullish? What makes me most bullish is the fact that we've survived so many different things and that, you know, the environment just in the world for Bitcoin is just as time goes by, it just gets better and better. So I also think that the back half of Trump's presidency is going to be very favorable for markets. And so we're still like five, four months away from that.

48:22So yeah, I think 27 and 28 are going to be really interesting. All right. And so what's your like spiciest Bitcoin view that you think other people think is absolutely ridiculous? I think that quantum is totally overblown. I understand that it's like something that people need to think about, but I think Puris and tech bros and like nerdy guys really blow it way out of proportion. I think that, and I think that a lot of the pure, the purest stuff is in the discussion that the kind of purest people have is a waste of time. Okay. Well, last question and I ask everyone the same question, which is what is a core belief you will never let go of? Core belief, I will never let go of is that you should always, you should always put your best foot forward. Awesome. Dude, well, thanks so much for your insights and your time. And yeah, let's say in touch. Let's see where all of this goes, man.

49:22I'm excited. Cheers. Oh, yeah, this was a real pleasure. Man, this was awesome. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, you can click here to find more. Just like it. And click here to find all Bitcoin for millennials podcasts episodes. Also, if you want to help me shine a light on the message of Bitcoin, please like this video and subscribe to stay connected. I hope to see you for the next episode. Bye. When you shop pick up at Fred Meyer, you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries selected just for you. Our associates are committed to getting every detail right, carefully hand picking your items, checking for quality and freshness and packing your order with care. Because bringing you fresh quality groceries is what we do best. And right now, enjoy $30 off your first online order of $75 or more. Restrictions apply, seasite for details. Fred Meyer, fresh for everyone. Have you heard that McDonald's spicy chicken nuggets made with spicy tempura and a blend

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