How to have a nuanced conversation | A conversation with Drew Perkins

In this episode, Shane sits down with Drew Perkins, President Director of ThoughtStretcher Education and host of the ThoughtStretchers Education Podcast. Drew brings a refreshing perspective on how we can navigate the often polarised world of education discourse, from the direct instruction versus inquiry debate to the broader challenge of maintaining nuanced thinking in our schools.

Drew shares his approach to engaging in online education conversations with curiosity rather than certainty, and explains his concept of "reality-based communities" grounded in what he calls enlightenment liberal principles. Whether you're a school leader trying to cut through the noise or an educator looking to model better dialogue, this conversation offers practical wisdom for staying grounded whilst remaining open to learning.

Resources Mentioned

• ThoughtStretchers Education Podcast - Drew's weekly education podcast
• Paul Kirschner Panel Discussion: "The Knowledge Revival, Curriculum For Deep Thinking" - Recent episode exploring direct instruction vs inquiry learning
• Jonathan Rauch's "Kindly Inquisitors" - Book on knowledge and free speech
• Jonathan Rauch's "The Constitution of Knowledge" - Exploring how we determine truth in modern society
• ThoughtStretcher Education - Drew's organisation website
• ThoughtStretchers Community - Educational discussion community

Episode Partner

The International Curriculum Association: Learn more

Join Shane's Intensive Leadership Programme at educationleaders.co/intensive

Shane Leaning, an organisational coach based in Shanghai, supports school leaders globally. Passionate about empowment, he is the author of the best-selling 'Change Starts Here.' Shane is a leading educational voice in the UK, Asia and around the world.

You can find Shane on LinkedIn and Bluesky. or shaneleaning.com

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