How to Become Great at Anything — Anders Ericsson’s Peak

0:00Hello and welcome to the moonshirts podcast. It's episode wait for this 295 on your co-host Mike Parsons and as always I'm joined by the man with the plan the man with an extra family member is to mark Pearson feeling good morning mark. Hey good morning Mike. Good morning listeners views subscribe as members Yes, you're right today will be my first moonshirts episode officially as a father who welcomed in his son to arrive just 10 days ago. So for listeners and viewers if I either look or even sound That little bit sleepy It's not because of the topic of today's episode. No, no, it's because of my son. Maybe keeping me up to later nice We you have all the permission to stumble slow your words full sleep in the show everyone is very appreciative of you even turning up my so thank you But it sounds like you're in it or need of some rather peak performance

1:02That's right. This episode is I suppose a continuation mic of our recent series on creativity But it has a little bit of extra thrown in there as well We're actually going to be able to understand a little bit more about extraordinary Performance and how once again it is not only reserved for the natural you gifted no no It can indeed be developed through as our topic of today's show is and is Erickson's peak we can it create expert level performance peak performance through deliberate practice purposeful learning and a commitment to getting better Mike on paper that is moon shots in an episode of live Here's old school. It's where we started the show some eight or nine years ago What an exciting topic, but what what a great idea that Expertise and mastery is available to all of us, right? Yeah, I think we often Look at the idea of mastering a skill as Something maybe a little bit intimidating for some of those who've kind of gone through with a hobby in the past

2:06Otherwise for myself for example when I think about maybe learning an instrument now It my eyes roll. I just think oh, this is gonna take me way too long There are more talented people than I am and I don't think I can get it myself into that headspace to do it That comes down to routine habit as well as you know diligence and deliberate effort But a lot of that is exactly where Anders is coming from he's telling us once again Mike that it can be Chance this book can be a chance for us to get back into the mindset of working on ourselves Trying to engage in practices that help us you know get beyond our usual limits of comfort Yeah, you know, and I think this is a show if anyone who enjoyed the last show which is using This idea of co-intelligence. This is the perfect show to go with tools like AI This is also the perfect extension of cow dweck with the growth mindset cow newport deep work Strait a student and a lot of habit and good stuff from the moon shots

3:09Universe but if you really want to get on the sharp end of mastery and expertise This is the show for you and the guy who brings the clips every single week Mr. Mike Pearson Freeland where we're kicking off look the idea of peak performance Mike is pretty Open-ended isn't it? You know, we could see performance as subjective you can be a sportsman and Overperform you can be in the boardroom you can even be like myself a new father Perhaps and we're all trying to get that little bit better and perform at our peak in times when we you know Might be struggling a little bit But if we take a step back before we get into some of the really practical tips that we can understand from Anders's work I thought we need to all get on the same playing field and understand With the help of Larry King and Anders what exactly we are looking for when we talk about an expert You know what what's the definition of the next word? Well, we're really looking for people who consistently can perform at a very high level and whatever

4:12Domain that they want to be experts at So for example a doctor Virgin who can actually perform a surgery with better outcomes than their colleagues That would we would refer to as an expert performer And what got you interested in the subject? Well, I think like most people I kind of was interested in trying to be my best and and I think Looking at people that I considered to really demonstrate that superiority and then hopefully understand what they are thinking and then Trying to figure out ways that I would be able to kind of learn how to think like they are thinking That was kind of my original motivation of really trying to understand how I And all sorts of other people would be able to improve their performance and virtually any domain

5:13But you talk about things like deliberate practice. There's an expert know that they're doing this or do they do it kind of automatically Well if you select people who really are Outstanding and performing at a much higher level. I found consistently that they have a history of training Often they've been working with a coach or a teacher for a long period of time So they basically together with their teacher have been working on improving Aspects gradually during their development and that's essentially how they were able to get to the point where they're at How much of it is natural talent though? Well, that I think is a very interesting question and once we start looking at people and analyzing exactly what it is that they're really good at We find that we can find this

6:14History of practice and training that seems to explain at least it seems to be necessary For them to have done that to reach this high level So this idea that somebody More or less discovers suddenly that they're extremely good at something I've yet to find even a single example of that type of phenomenon So most a lot of people think their experts and they're not right we see it on television every day Well, I think there are two different ways of thinking about experts You can either be an expert because other people including yourself claim that you're an expert I guess what we're interested in are people who really can objectively demonstrate their superior performance Like an athlete who is able to perform an event much better than anyone else or a chess master that anybody can challenge and not be able to beat

7:15Mark what stood out to me there is he basically said so under Zerickson Basu says there's not after all of his decades of study There's not a single example of an overnight success There's no one is just so talented there an expert. He says it's it's essentially the inverse It's people with a long history of training with a teacher. Yeah to consistently perform on that high level all the time They came via a background of learning Feedback loops and feedback seeking is a big part of Anders's work And I think that's exactly as you're calling out what he's communicating there teachers that can help you get better By maybe pointing out the holes in your knowledge or the holes in your skill level whatever it might be and then encourages you to Consistently grow each time that you practice that particular skill Yeah, and I know I really can't help it being reminded of Michael Jordan here

8:16And when we did the show on him and obviously we all have the last dance as a recent reference To his career, but what was so clear is he trained harder than anyone Yeah, so it all was just such a built-in system for him you could argue Maybe people other basketball players had more natural physical talent But no one came close to him on training and that's why he's the goat I will then go to Tom Brady what do we hear about him trained like crazy He was one of the first guys to really get into diet and stretching and plyometrics to and he played longer He is the eldest man in the NFL to ever win a Superbowl ring so the pattern we see it in sports and we are starting to see it at the computer as well Yeah, it's pretty cool, isn't it? Something that stood out to me when Larry King was chatting to Anders and you've reminded me by referencing Jordan and Brady as well

9:21Is this concept of flow and the idea that flow is something that a lot of these athletes athletes Creative individuals can get into when they'd perform their best I think what we're hearing from Anders as well as those two case studies you just shared you can get into flow If you want to call it that via practice. Yeah, I by doing routinely just stretches your Plays trying to coming out onto the court. That's when you get into flow It's not these overnight success where you wake up and suddenly you're in that headspace and you can deliver at that level It's something that takes a lot of work, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely and I think the the beautiful thing about this show is now that we have kind of Challenged ourselves and said okay Expertise and mastery is available to us all and we know that the path is through doing training But later on in the show we're gonna ask ourselves well, what are the steps that you need to take to do that? Which is very exciting knowing that you have tools like AI at your disposal

10:22So you can retrieve the information faster than ever. I remember There was a time when I was studying at school that you would need to go to the library and then you go to the Index cards at the library and then go to the whichever row of books, right and walked down there and got a B 75-54-2 and then you'd find a book and you'd come through the book and hope that it has something related to the topic you're interested Yeah, so so when I see the ability of what we can do with Claude and chat GBT today and the Information at our disposal and the breadth and the size of it. We truly can be masters experts in anything if we choose to Take this approach that and as outlines in his book. I can't think of a better topic for a minute show You're right and I love that reference back to Ethan Mollick with current intelligence Right now as we talked about in the last show learning is

11:24Perhaps more it's that we have more power and tools behind us to learn nowadays than ever before And if we can combine that drive and that practice that I think we're gonna learn with Anders today There's probably one other thing you can do Mark and that's becoming a member of the moonshots podcast I believe that takes you to a higher peak. What say you? I think you're right Mike. I think these individuals are coming at us from the peak of their moonshots learning out loud experience So guys, please without further ado Welcome in our members Bob Diettna Marjan Mr. Bonjur pool book Kalman Joe Semuella Lassay Steve and Craig Ravi Ola Ingram and Roger Stefraw Gaila Mike Zachary Austin Ola and Andy Jasper Fabian Guhon Marko Ken Ryan Natalie and Malcolm Emily Jamie Edwin and Bill Marie Maria B. Marrero RG Peter Paul M.H. Gary Cloud cover Julia Mark Richard and Colin D breath. Thank you to all of them

12:27Thank you to you Mark for bringing out the trumpets under duress sleep deprived new father And you can still do the trumpets that truly is peak performance. We're getting there That's because Mike flow isn't always the best it flow is the destination It's the uncomfortable workout side of it that's gonna get me there So it's my pleasure to come back despite being a little bit sleep deprived So we know that we're gonna do some work here if we want to achieve this expertise We want to get some peak performance going We know we can learn it. We know we can master it and what's so exciting is this next clip you've got starts to suggest how we might go about it and the steps and levels involvement Yeah, that's right. So we're gonna hear from a great breakdown of Anders' book in this next clip Which builds on a concept that we just heard from Larry King and Anders Which is the fact that it isn't just about the way we practice It's not how much time you spend but it's the intention that you take in to those practice windows

13:28Practice is the least effective form of practice from proving your skill And I mean practice you get some instructions from a coach or a video You practice it until you reach an acceptable level and then you let it become automatic Most of us assume that if we keep practicing we are bound to get better But this is simply not the case It is very important to understand that once you reach a satisfactory skill level And the skill has become automatic you have stopped improving The unfortunate reality is that this is how most athletes practice Especially athletes in team sports practice is usually carried out in groups with no attempt to figure out what each athlete should be working on And this makes the learning process much slower a better form of practice that allows us to continuously improve is purposeful practice Purposeful practice consists of four principles purposeful practice has well-defined specific goals You can't just go through the motions. You need to know exactly what you want to improve You need to have a long-term target of what you want your performance to look like and break it down into smaller components

14:32You then set goals on how you're going to improve each of those smaller components in your training The second principle is that you have to focus if you are just showing up and going through the motions without being fully engaged You are not purposely practicing You need to be intensely focused in order to achieve the specific goals that you have set for yourself The third principle is that we need to leave our comfort zone Purposeful practice involves trying to do something you cannot do Something that will take you out of your comfort zone and then practicing it over and over again Focusing on exactly how you are doing it where you're falling short and how you can get better The fourth principle is feedback You need to get immediate feedback of what you're doing in order to adjust to what is working and what is not working This important principle brings us to the next and most effective form of practice Which is deliberate practice Deliverate practice shares the same principles as purposeful practice But it also requires having a coach who is familiar with the abilities of expert performers

15:35And how those abilities can be best developed A knowledgeable and effective coach helps guide us on the best path to improvement by giving us informed feedback The reason why these training principles are so important is because they allow us to develop better mental representations of different skills techniques and game strategies Oh, I mean that is a Carol Dweck Playbook or my Denmark Yeah, it is isn't it Yura? She's really we're now hearing a little bit more around this idea of getting yourself into that space Getting that Intention behind the work that you're doing while also seeking out opportunities to kind of hear the hard truth Which might be you haven't quite got it yet Yeah, and and something I'm not sure if we truly associate with Mastering expertise which is this idea of getting out of your comfort zone and It again, it reminds me of Jordan saying that he played so intensely in practice the games felt easy

16:39That's such a hard thing to be disciplined about and it reminds me that you know Gogans would talk about there are mornings he wakes up and he just doesn't want to run And then it seems like this is a moment where greatness is made where peak performance can be achieved through the choosing to go about Doing something that is just tough. It sucks Yeah, somehow you you Conjured the capability to put on those running shoes to go and train harder when you don't have to And I think I think it kind of what we discovered with gogans is is it is almost counterintuitive Because we seek it to preserve ourselves like the human state is to keep living right? So doing lots of long distance runs which puts you in this distress There's not something you naturally search out you search out for sitting under the tree Having a coconut water watching everybody else

17:40You're totally right. It's getting through that pain window, isn't it? So it's like me saying to you, Mike. All right, Mark So you want to have mastery in this particular area Let's get out three books and you're going to tell me the frameworks which are contained in each other Even though you're sleep deprived and you've got lots to do at home You're going to get this out and you're going to do this for six hours and you're like and it's optional Meaning I don't have to Yeah, are you sure? It's in this moment that you can just see like the choice for mastery the intention for mastery is basically saying It's going to suck and it's got it and you've got to find the where it's all to go through the suck Yeah, it builds on What I probably would have previously associated with pre-performance Which is the idea that you're working as hard as you can and I think what is being revealed here is perhaps you are Not necessarily the best judge at telling yourself when you've worked really really hard So what I mean by that is without that extra level Which and is this bringing to us is kind of like deliberate practice and getting a coach?

18:44Yes to provide feedback and provide opportunities to really learn that level higher And just purposeful practice you are kind of limited by what you place in your own mind as to the the glass ceiling right I think with that coach that's where you can push through that little bit more of the discomfort That for me at least would be enough to make me put down the running shoes or claim that I'm overtired Well, what we saw with Goggins is exactly what you just said he talks about how we have no idea about our true potential Because we all tap out too early. That's exactly it That's exactly it. It's very easy I think to to find a reason to tap out unless you're being held accountable And that idea you know we've spoken a lot about on the show as well This idea of sharing your your goals and your targets Vobilizing them in order to whether that's with your partner or your business partner in order to stay on track with development That's pretty powerful stuff, isn't it? Well, it is. I mean there is a lot of truth I think in sharing your goals with the right people

19:49Hmm because that forces that accountability that is it's very easy to say you know on a cold winter's morning I said I'd get up and run this morning, but it's so toasty warm. I I tell you what I worked hard last night I can have a day off to that I can totally rest now. Yes. Why do you think we struggle if if expertise is available to us Mark Why do you think so many of us get somewhere to okay level of mastery or decent level But why do you think so went it is a question of choice and intention What is the real blocker here? Are we all like settling for okay? Or I don't want it to painful or is there do we just not know that our limits? What do you think is really happening? I think it's to do with the limits I think that like we heard with James clear you get really good at something through small increments, you know, 1% better a day

20:52I think there's a time for all of us when we get further and further down that journey and we think 1% more that's too much. This is getting a little bit too painful now, you know Maybe I'm my patients with learning the trumpet has now really been exhausted And I don't want to push it any further That's perhaps when a lot of us would pull the plug because it gets too uncomfortable So do you think what happens is we think we're like 80 90% there on mastery and expertise But we don't realize we're probably not even halfway because we have these self limiting beliefs Yeah, I do and I think that's exactly where Goggins comes from as well Which is funny because I didn't necessarily anticipate us going down the Goggins route When we were you know talking about peak performance when I suppose we really it was obviously a natural build But yeah, I think knowing that something is really really challenging and really difficult is one going to put people off at the very start For those who get through maybe the first 500 hours or something are that point you start thinking

21:57This is maybe this is a little bit trickier than I initially until it's trickier or like I'm Pretty decent at this, you know, like if you take work for example Oh, I'm learning a decent learning. I'm doing pretty well professionally Yeah, well, I guess not that much to go. He needs to work this hard I'm just very fascinated like in a in a dialogue, right? Yeah, I remember get back when I was Younger and in London I was learning Mandarin and I remember doing you know a good couple of years at it This was after after work classes, you know, this was I'd already left school university etc So it was purely a sort of self-driven self-motivated experience and I got to a certain point and I thought you know what that's enough I'm okay with where I've got to to go any further I'd really need to push myself into that mastery space maybe even get like a personal coach I was going to classes, but it was you know a shared group yes, I'm probably maxed out here But I do wonder whether that was because I was starting to get a little bit unmotivated

22:59Maybe it was getting harder, you know really stepping away from the English elements and really getting into just pure characters Or whether it's because I was comfortable with where I had got to made was a little bit of both So what do you find so let's now think about pushing through from These levels of practice getting much more purposeful and deliberate Getting choosing to get it out of our comfort zone choosing to get accountability and feedback What are your go-to Practices that mobilize you that you can Smash through some of these blockers that we all have about achieving expertise. You know what it's a good question I think it's down to a little bit as we heard that last clip Setting yourself some good goals some silence that is instantly where I go Like what got me running a marathon was a friend said hey, there's a fixed date. There's a marathon You're running it with me and I'm like yeah Okay, yeah, but that much easier is it when you've got that kind of race in the diary

24:04Then you know oh if I don't train I'm gonna be I'm gonna suffer. There's no escape. I runically. I did the marathon and he already did the half marathon There you go. You got the motivation from from sharing the experience with somebody else. Yes, pretty gorgeous Yeah, I think I think having a goal or a signpost So that you can you know one work towards something that's your destination But also you can pass those Stages along the way. So if I can see via exams, let's say or performance reviews maybe is another one But even like your your time splits for running or distances. They are all proxies of progress Yeah, even down to that swimming Whatever it is, you know when you can start to see your data improve that a little bit To be honest Mike even sleeping You know Well, I got a moment. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly So when you can get into those type that goal orientated approach, I think yeah

25:05That's what would encourage me to really stick it. Yeah, so I will confess an inner dialogue I've been having about peak performance. So I ran my one and only Marathon several years ago now I've constantly run since but I probably only run 10 to 15k's a week now And I do a lot of walking and I've been thinking to myself. It's really interesting I know I should run another marathon because then I will go up into a new level right But what's interesting is I've been flirting with this idea now for a couple of months But knowing the high degree of discomfort that comes with this choice. Yeah, it's really funny Mark Haven't quite made that commitment yet Yes, I must confess Mike. I am also very similar to yourself It is funny to me how many times in my professional career I've thought yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this But maybe maybe next time maybe next week and gradually I notice I've been saying for a couple of years

26:09To pick up such and such or to really work on x-wiles. Ed. Why do you think that is why do we I think it takes enormous capability someone gogans like to invite discomfort into your life. Yeah, I think that's it isn't it's I think it is really hard and you must know I think you need to accept discomfort and you the highest form of peak performance Is when you encourage and invite it like you're literally like this is hurting Awesome Yeah, it comes down to that because without that you're gonna be like me. I'm gonna be like well. I really should Around a marathon. I really should pick a date either do a competitive one or set myself a goal Otherwise, I'm just gonna defer defer defer, right? And I think this is where doing it with others having a coach Setting a fixed date measuring your progress already right there We've got four or five very clear things to do and it's crazy that if you if you truly want this expertise

27:11You have to do a lot more than just doing the same thing 10,000 times for 10,000 This is about constant growth discomfort and the crazy thing is I know when I'm at my best I search for this I know that when I'm truly self-aware like yeah, my book in that marathon by that ticket, right? That's when I'm at my best and it's coming upon all my resources because I will tell you that When you invest the time to master something to set an audacious goal and you achieve it The the well-being on the other side knowing that and I come back to this story Around the marathon part of the deepest fulfillment in satisfaction was knowing that I though You know six months before that I would never have dreamt of running that distance And I did a program day after day for six months and I did it the sense of well-being was thank God after the finish line It was like thank God that's over

28:14But it quickly becomes like I feel so satisfied right now because Deep in my bones I know I gave up so much to get across that line and I Effan did it. I would you say that the satisfaction was the main now if you were to now think about marathon Number two, hmm with that sense of satisfaction that you felt after marathon number one Be one of the main motivators to pick up those those shoes and Hit another 42k. Yes, but I think that's why we all need to use our cookie jar of one with done special things is to know that Oh, you're gonna feel so insanely fit and as I've been increasing my running recently a bit Just feeling strong and fast and healthy and just like oh, I know this feeling I got so much more of this feeling to go get because you know Just starting to feel a bit stronger and faster and like oh You know, and I'm not even running a half marathon distance So it gives you some clues there, but I think that's why a lot of people get addicted to those like trathons

29:18You know ultra marathon running. It's it's the high the runners high if you will and and related experiences effort reward and I think we'll we can all go back and find something where we achieve peak performance And it's when you were kind of relate that into sitting your new goals. I think that's the unlock right? I think so too and you know if we're gonna continue on the running parallel here I think what I noticed particularly nowadays is when it comes to people who are serious about their running They do look for that deliberate practice. They do seek out physios coaches to help them improve You know, you can see the technology when you just go and buy a new pair of asics shoes You know, you were looking at you gate How you striking the floor and so on all of that I suppose is giving you insights that you can then welcome to try and get that little bit better at it And that's I think a big motivator for a lot of people as well, isn't it? I think it really is but We've still got more from unders more peak performance in size

30:21So shall we do a mad dash? Shall we say spring to this final clip that you've got from Anders Erickson? That sounds very good to me. We've got one more Which we heard a little bit of a tease in that final part of the purposeful practice clip Which was around mental representation. So let's hear from Rick Ketner who's gonna tell us a little bit about what comes next after you understand those three levels of practice Coming in expert is the development of mental representations that make it easier to spot patterns Makes sense of complexity and identify the correct course of action in a given situation Even when a skill is primarily physical a critical factor is the development of mental frameworks for engaging in the activity A mental representation is a cognitive structure that corresponds to an object an idea a collection of information or Anything else concrete or abstract for example consider how the word dog

31:23Allows people to communicate more efficiently about a pet three simple letters or even just the sound that they make Serves as a mental representation for a complex mammal with well understood traits and behaviors This kind of efficient encoding of information is all around us almost everything we do including walking Speaking reading and writing is built on a complex web of mental representations Without them even the simple act of walking would require that we actively coordinate a complex series of muscle movements Consider how a child learns to ride a bike early attempts are often frustrating Because they don't yet know how to manage their balance while pedaling to keep the bike upright However, once they develop the appropriate mental representations Writing becomes easy even automatic now the primary purpose of practice is to develop the appropriate mental representations

32:25For the skill or the ability that you're trying to master doing so initiates a virtuous cycle because As you develop better mental representations you're more able to monitor and evaluate your performance Thus the more skilled you become the better your mental representations are and the better your mental representations are The more effectively you're able to improve your skill This is one reason why expert performers often appear to be fast learners There's a period of mental representations developed through years and years of deliberate practice Allow them to acquire related skills knowledge and abilities faster So while it is true that they can learn faster today that wasn't always the case Uh, love that I see this in so many ways my so to Show a practical example of mental representation when I did a running program to prepare for the marathon

33:29What was really insightful for me if a marathon is 42k a month before you need to run your first 32k And a month before that you need to run your first 22k So I basically worked up into that pattern and what was really interesting is The mental representation the model for me to understand what was required of me is doing Different variations through the week, but keeping the volume of kilometers very consistent And then once a month I do my longest ever run 22 32 42 which was the actual marathon So that was the mental representation I had and it was exactly the same when I learned to really build software for myself I started with the front end what you see then I started working through into the middle where some of the APIs And the runtimes that connect it and then I got into the back end postgres SQL dev ops running century and post hogging the system bunch of stuff and then all of a sudden I could do front middle and back end

34:29I've got a full app I could run 22 32 42 I've got a full marathon to me these are the mental representations mapping what you want a master having that clear outcome at the end You might not know all the answers in the middle But then going through those mental models of knowing that and I think it's mapping the challenge right? Yeah, it's mapping where you're going to be and what ladders up to that final goal, isn't it? So if you know it's the 42 the natural break I suppose the natural moment to celebrate would be 21 And it reminds me Mike we've spoken about this idea of recognizing you know your successes in order to motivate yourself And achieve that peak performance in the past for me that's a big one as well Once you know that you can a you can do a quarter or marathon You think okay, well, maybe I can double that maybe I can do half and that's a great way of motivating yourself to keep on going Isn't it? Yeah, and and I remember the first 32 that I ran I was like oh my gosh

35:30This was almost a marathon and actually I feel pretty good right now I could probably get the 42 done when I finished the 32. I knew I had some gas in the tank And that was miraculous for me because I say 42 doesn't intimidate me anymore confidence I was so scared of the idea my I could not I could barely I don't When I decided to do it I don't think I'd ever run double digits and so when I ran my first 10k I was like wow that was great But then I was equally like it's not even a quarter of a marathon Yeah, that's when motivation is harder But you then you just plot your way up through through the thing and then when you get close after you're like hey I've got this system. I've got the mental representation. I've got the model I've got the map. I'm just compounding my way through it So I'm interested to know like how do you relate to this idea of mental representation of the challenge of what the peak performance looks like? Well, I really like where that clip when in my mind I'm hearing memory

36:34So you hear fast learners the idea of fast learners and how some people seem naturally gifted I remember when I was at school There were some guys that would look at a you know a scientific equation boom They remember it. I was the guy who was doing the naive practice of trying to cram it the night before But what I thought was quite interesting in that in that clip there is that fast learners Get into that point through the repetition of monitoring themselves and how they're learning about Let's say it's chess and then finding that when they pick up Portuguese Actually, it follows some similar patterns. You need to learn This foundation first that for me was the big unlock here because suddenly when you are working on mental representation of let's say it's pulling together a great moonshot show Not only you know to use Jim Kerr you could visualize it But actually to see those signposts we talked about earlier this right having learned another skill Yes, suddenly hey, it's you're going on a lot quicker. There you go. No, that's fantastic

37:38So we we actually have covered some ground here because we've redefined our expectations of being an expert We've kind of pushed through those phases and then have mental models Of knowing how to get to that destination. Isn't it funny though This is pattern mark of how you have to seek discomfort and how so much of excellence For film it comes from the choice to challenge yourself. Mm. It's not for the faint hearted. Is it yeah? And it's not natural. Yeah, we see cozy warm little corner with a cup of tea. Right? Yeah, that's the life We all think we want you know I want to sit back on the porch with a cup of tea and take it easy Well actually, no, no, that's that's not the way you should do it in order to be Satisfied with whatever it is that you're learning or you're working on yeah, you're right that discomfort is what you

38:39I'm going to experience in order to feel like you've learned or achieved something and actually in my life when there have been things that I need to learn For example, changing careers for example now that I'm a father there's going to be plenty of things I'm going to have to try and pick up somewhat quickly I think being able to look at those with an air of okay Well, I've had to learn something difficult before I've had to take feedback or I've had to move country Whatever it was yeah, I feel that little bit more confidence in my abilities Even before trying to take on the challenge. Is that something Mike as you think about picking up, you know the coding for example You knew in the past that you had achieved things that you had once deemed impossible was that a good Motivator for you when you then started picking up and trying to build the apps It did but there's a huge butt here. There are still moments when you just can't figure it out And you're really struggling and you're like why am I doing this is insanity like and you just question everything right

39:42Because it's super uncomfortable. You're working on your weekend. It's super uncomfortable. I could just be watching Netflix ah Put on the last dance again ah The battle with comfort and the seeking of discomfort. Yeah, huge themes in in the minchotchi universe right yeah once again That coming through as such a key part of us trying to get better in ourselves It's it's impressive isn't it and we didn't even speak about active learning Yes, so much so much go check out our cow new port shows if you're into active learning Mark we redefined an expert number one that could be some homework for you number two three levels Number three is getting into this idea of creating a mental map mental representation of the challenge Which one as a sleep deprived newly made father are you adopting the three levels of practice? Because I understand the value in being able to see when you are leaving one and entering into that higher space

40:44Yeah, yeah, what about you might what's the homework or or topic for you? I I must say I'm really moving around those three Dimensions three levels that are in the book by Anders Erickson But I could do well to get an in real life coach because right now chat you tears my coach Yeah, but I need I need to really embrace that and I don't even know where to start and I haven't even thought about it Which shows there's a lot of blue sky there. Yeah, what a great thing to take away though There's a very powerful calls out that's the way to crack through that final ceiling. Yeah, absolutely Well, Mark. Thank you to you. Thank you to the whole family for allowing us to have you for an hour I think you thank you to you listeners viewers and members for show 200 and 95 where we talked about the peak by Anders Erickson Where we went into those three big ideas to help you be the best version of yourself We redefined what does it mean to be an expert and it's available to you now

41:45There's never been a better time in history to be an expert number two There's a blueprint of three levels that really peaks to excuse the pun with getting feedback and accountability from others and three remember build that mental model Build that map of where you're going so you know how to get there So you can grind away and before you know at the magic of compound interests will realize You'll have expertise you'll have mastery and that is living your best life Which is what we're all about here on the moonshots podcast that's a wrap