How to Be a Double Unicorn, with John Urschel | Better in Person

0:00This episode of Better in Persons is presented by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today. Hey there, it's Stephen W. And this is a bonus episode that we are calling How to Be a Double Unicorn. Comes from our new video talk show, which is called Better in Person. And the guest is John Urschel, a former NFL lineman who now teaches math at MIT. John is one of my very favorite people. And I think you will like him too. To watch this episode, go to the Freakinomics YouTube channel or search for Better in Person on Apple Podcasts. The entire first season of the show has now been published. So go ahead, binge. As always, thanks for listening. So you never open a math book on the Ravens facility. No, never. And because you're busy doing football.

1:03This is Better in Person with Stephen Dubner and John Urschel. A lot of us spend our lives trying to find the one big thing we're really good at. John Urschel had a slightly different problem. He turned out to be world class at two things, two very different things. Football and math. One path led to the NFL, the other to MIT. Eventually, he had to make a choice. I am the son of a pretty good college football player. Is this your dad? Yes, my dad, yeah. Who also became a thoracic surgeon? Yes. And not only did he become a thoracic surgeon, he, while in college, playing college football, wasn't medical school. Some of these universities have these programs where they really accelerate people to med school. You do two years and then straight into med school. He did exactly this. Where did he play football in the middle? At University of Alberta. So he's Canadian, I'm Canadian. So my mom and dad had me, I was born in Canada. They moved to Buffalo for my dad's work.

2:05And then eventually my dad moved back to Canada. And you stay in Buffalo with your mom? I stay in Buffalo. But I would visit my dad all the time. And he's working as a thoracic surgeon. He's a really busy person. He would pick me up. He would take me to the hospital. He would do his rounds. He would let me look around on his computer. And then after he would do his rounds, he would take me to the local chapters. Yeah. And he would be in the cafe. He would just be working. What are you held at this point? Eight or nine? What are you reading? What are you doing? I'm looking at all different types of books. I'm just sitting in reading books, exploring. And I find myself just mostly hanging out in the math section. And I'm just opening up things and picking up things that I have no business picking up. Did that strike you as unusual? No, it was fun. I don't know. I have, I'm here for five hours every second Saturday. Like I am in elementary school, but this is fun. And I know you liked puzzles from the time you were very fun. Right, so this is the other section I would spend a lot of time. But it is the puzzle section. You know, we asked you to bring something for show and tell.

3:07Yes. You brought this book. The big book of Tell Me Why. So this is something my mom bought from you. Yeah. I noticed there's like a big, a child. A boot print here in coffee stains there. You can bless your mom or your dad or you think that's you. No, so this is because this would go in the trunk. And so just so that you'd always have it with you when you're. Well, around, let's say third grade. OK. So my mom is working as an attorney. And she has a lot of night court. She went to law school very late in life. And my grandmother had died the year before. So we're without child care. So now she's taking me places. So she has night court. And she doesn't think I'm quite old enough to stay at home. Well, she did leave me at home a bit, but I don't think it went too well. I mean, were you lighting fires, things like that? No, just like a little bit of chaos. Yeah. Maybe like the bathtub, you know, gets too full, you know, things like this. And so she would always have this in the trunk. And then she would just sit me in the last row of the courtroom. Yeah. And she would just give me the book.

4:08Therefore, hours I would look at this. Sometimes I would do puzzle books, but this was like the stalwart. Maybe look through the book and tell me a couple things that you were called being intriguing to you. Right. Yes. So chapter five, how things are made. Yeah. And that was when I really liked a striking one. It must be in here somewhere is how does a mirror work? Ah. And I mean, I'm sure it does. How does a mirror work? So it's all about light and reflections and angle of reflection and angle of incidence. And did that feel like math to you as a kid? No, it just felt really cool. I never viewed the things I really liked. This is going to sound very strange as explicitly math until I got to college. But you love football. I love football. And when I was a kid, my dream was to be an offensive lineman in the Big Ten. Wow. Like I grew up watching like Jake Long. And I, you know, I wanted to do the left tackle for Michigan. Because OK, I played tackle in high school. And, you know, there's a star system coming out of high school. I was a two star recruit.

5:08The scale was out of five. Yeah. And so I'm like two out of five. So somehow being like all Big Ten, all American offense lineman at Penn State, this is just like the dream come true. But you chose to go to a football school rather than like you were, you had a chance to go to Stanford, but you'd already committed to Penn State. Yeah, exactly. And at the time, and your mom wanted that, my mom wanted me to go to Stanford. And at the time, I had like this very strong sense of honor, which, you don't have it anymore? I mean, I think it was probably misplaced. Like I'm not sure it was deserved, but at the time I had this really strong sense of, you know, like, meaning I committed to Penn State. I committed to Penn State. I'm sorry, you know, John Harball calls me to come visit Stanford. And, you know, for me, and I say, you know, I'm sorry, coach, I have already committed to Penn State. And he says, oh, that's okay. You can still just come and, you know, see how things are. And I say, no coach, you know, I've really, I've already committed, I've given my word like, you know, a lot. Paturno was your coach for your first year too?

6:09My first three. First three years. Okay. And then he's gone. And then what's the program like in your fourth year as you're a senior there? Very different. Who's your coach? Bill O'Brien. Right? Okay. And turn out to be a really good coach. Turned out to be a really good coach, although he's, he's suffering quite badly at Boston College right now. Now, although, I think it's hard to, it's hard to win there, especially in the current NIL. So NIL is name image likeness, which is the way for college athletes now to get paid essentially. Right? Yes. Yeah. I remember when I played, you could not make a dime. You couldn't take a free hamburger. You couldn't take a free hamburger. And really at Penn State, they were, they were really honest about this. I mean, Paturno was very, very serious about this. And so this was legitimate. And so when you're in that environment where you can't take it, does it feel like you're in a, not like a religious order in the military, but like, what does it feel like to be that constricted? It's, I mean, it's a tough, it's a touch strict.

7:09And I think it was too strict before. Yeah. I mean, for instance, you know, I was at Penn State. And not that I have any complaints about it. But I remember like, you know, my face is on like banners downtown. I'm doing all these things. There's other players who's jerseys. I mean, my jersey didn't sell so well. When all kinds of linemen, there are other players who's jerseys are just, you know, everywhere. And you know, we are not, you're not making a single set out of it. Not even like some money towards a 401k or something, you know what I mean? So name image and likeness, objectively, a good thing that players can make a little bit of money off of there or a lot of money or a lot of money. When you started playing at Penn State, let's say, where did you think get a pretty decent chance to make the NFL? No, I thought I had no chance. No chance. When did you start to think get a chance? My junior year, I'm playing well. I'm an all big 10 offensive linemen at the time as a junior. And my coach, you know, sort of meets me after the season, my position coach, and sort

8:12of, you know, says, you're coming back another year. Like, please, not please, but sort of like, I don't want you thinking any crazy stuff. You're coming back another year. Crazy stuff like declaring for the NFL. Declaring early as a joke. Like, I don't want you thinking about anything crazy. And to me honest, I wasn't really thinking about the NFL at all. Okay. And so it wasn't until, like, you know, this conversation, which was kind of a joke in a past thing, like right at the end of the season. Did that give you more confidence in for your final year? The fact that he assumed that you were bound for the end of that confidence. But I would say like this idea that this is something that is about to happen if I want to, got to happen. Okay. And then he would say things in practice like, you know, they're going to, you know, I do something and you say, oh, they're going to love that in the league. As I was saying, okay. During his last year at Penn State, Urshel interviewed with nearly all of the NFL's 32 teams. One team's new, he was a math major and a serious student. Some didn't. His math talent gave him options outside of football.

9:14But when the Baltimore Ravens chose Urshel in the fifth round of the NFL draft, Urshel chose football. Could I just say, I think most people don't understand that most linemen, offensive and defensive, it's an arm's race. It's a weight race. You have to put on a lot, a lot, a lot of pounds to choose in order to succeed. Yes. I think we're going to have to make a big weight in the NFL. My heaviest period, there was a time where I was 320. And how were you expected to do that just by eating and working out or no? Working out doesn't help you. Well, I mean, what us amateurs are told is that muscle ways for that's true, but somehow, you know, things in the NFL are already so optimized. So there's a diminishing return to it? Yes, exactly. So the point is, I'm already, you know, let's say in the off season, I'm already working out, you know, one to two times a day. Okay. An hour to two maybe? Two to three. Yeah. And how intense is the workout? I'm doing deadlifts, I'm doing squats, I'm doing bench, I'm doing, you know, what

10:18could you bench? I don't know, I usually don't max out, like so somehow in college, this is something that happens, you know, a lot. You try to see like how much weight you can lift. And the league, there's just no point in this. Like, there's no point to do like a one rep max. So I think in college, you know, like I've lifted four, oh, five before, like you could lift like two and a half of me. Well, to be clear, so this will give you a good sense when I was at the combine, everyone tries to bench press 225 pounds as many times as they can. And I did it 30 times. Oh my goodness. So that's the sense. I think I've conflated your intelligence with your athleticism a little bit. So my job is hitting people. Right. And so you're supposed to be very big. Is the hitting really fun when you're that big? Yeah, it was fun. I had a lot of fun. Yeah. I mean, was that the funnest part of football for you was getting to leave? It's really, I mean, it's the only part of football for me. Well, no, if you're, but if you're, if you're wide receiver, no, but for me, it's the

11:19only part. What do you love about hitting? It's sort of nice. Like, you know, you imagine your, no, you're out on a field. And imagine it's us in this sort of like controlled environment together. Yeah. And we line up next to each other. Yeah. And my goal is I want to move you. Yeah. I want to dominate you. Yeah. I want to impose my will on you. Not hurt. Not hurt. I want to impose my will on you. Yeah. Yeah. And you want to do the same to me. Blocking is more complicated than it looks on TV. So I asked John to give me a demo, but I was not interested in having him impose his will on me. So I offered up our producer, Theo Jacobs. I would get enough dance. Yeah. So I would step. Okay. And then I'm just moving like this. Yeah. And that's the idea. And the idea is I want my hat like right here. Yeah. Okay. All right. I'm being kind. My hands are out here. Don't be kind. Oh. Do you want to see one that involves two people? Sure. Sit.

12:20Oh. What's up? So much fun. You all right? Yeah. We do have really good health insurance. I'm going to say so if you broke anything, I think we'll be. Oh. You're a scoffer. Sit. Up. Oh. Oh. This episode of Better and Persons presented by ChatGPT. ChatGPT work moves beyond answers and is getting real work done. It's a new experience in ChatGPT for bigger, multi-step projects across web, mobile, and desktop. You can give ChatGPT work a goal and have it gather context, choose an approach, create the output, and continue iterating all while you stay in control. It can help turn messy inputs into useful outputs like briefs, spreadsheets, dashboards, presentations, prototypes, landing pages, and workflows. You can even ask ChatGPT work to take on entire workflows with a single request. Here's an example. It can turn customer research into a campaign brief, use that brief to create marketing assets, and adapt those assets for different markets.

13:22Sharing context through every step. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today. While you're playing for the NFL, where they want 110% of your physical and mental devotion, you're also getting your PhD in math at MIT. Yes, although I am not cheating, I would say, because I asked for permission first. From whom? From the team. From the Ravens. John Harbond. So I reached out to the coach. I asked if it was okay. I said, you know, coach, I want to go back to school to get my degree. Well, you had two degrees already, right? Yeah, but it's true. I want to go back to school to get my degree. Okay. And he said, you know, absolutely, this is something we completely support. We support people finishing school, getting their degrees. Yeah. Cool. So I say, okay, great. Thanks, coach. So he texts me back maybe like a minute later. And he says, but wait, but I thought you had your degree in your masters.

14:24And so then I sort of say, but that's true, but I don't have my PhD. And he texts me back. I'm like, oh, okay. And then that's that was it. Okay. So that's permission. Yeah. So I, I'm not attending any lectures. And I'm carefully choosing courses that I can get by on by reading the textbook. And courses that do not have exams. Okay. So I read the textbook and I do the problem. That sounds like a PhD late. And I was like, is that like it's, was MIT concerned that you were getting that you were taking a? Oh, no. So I had to take a full course load, which was three PhD courses in the fall while you're playing football, while I'm playing football in the NFL. Yeah. And I, and I would choose, I chose my three courses to make sure there were courses that did not have exams. So I could pass the class without being there. Okay. I get that. But still, let's just talk about workload.

15:26When you're playing in the NFL, how many hours a week would you say you're working on football? A lot. I mean, you know, every, every day I'm devoting just about all my time to football. Yeah. All but. But about the evening? All about in the evening. Your watching stuff. Film stuff. Yeah, you're preparing. So when you're doing your math? Also, you aren't leaving the building until quite late, actually. You leave after dinner. But let's suppose it's a time where people are winding down. Like a time where you might wind down is you're flying for an awakened and everyone's relaxing. People are watching movies. If I was reading a chess book, this is totally okay. I'm reading a math book. It's maybe a touch dodgy. Right. Yeah. I'm reading a math book. It's a little dodgy because they might think that you're like devoting too much time to your maybe I'm reading. And you know, someone would say, so that's not a bad thing. Is that a math book? I'd say no, it's a chess book. And I show them. And they say, okay. So I'm doing football all day every day. Then how am I doing MIT?

16:26Players get a day off from Sunday afternoon all the way until Tuesday morning. I am full math and I am scrambling to finish my problem sets. And the way that I am able to do this is that I have already read the books for the courses before the semester even starts. Oh, otherwise. I see. How could I possibly do this? So in the off season of the course, you're reading, which is the off season of, so did that mean you were doubling up with spring courses? Yes. So in the summer I'm reading books, but in the summer you have time and the spring I'm reading. Okay. I mean, I'm doing some work. And so this is one thing where, you know, I say this all the time if I was an English major. I don't see how I could have ever succeeded in college, let alone while doing this in the NFL. Right. So in the summer class, you have to read all these pages, you have to write, you know, a certain page report. In math, the way that you're sort of tested is usually you're given very few problems,

17:26but the problems are really hard. Yeah. And so how long it takes you, the time you invest is mostly invested in increasing your sort of skill and ability. Yeah. But if you already know the material pretty well, then the problem sets don't take us long. Do you ever thinking about a problem set while you were in the weight room? Really. You are a massive compartmentalizer, though, that seems. Yeah. Do you think that's a trait that has helped you succeed? My wife would say so. Okay. You're succeeding in the NFL. You're getting a PhD in math from MIT at the same time. And then there's a variable that comes in, which is a huge amount of attention paid to CTE. It's brain trauma, let's call it. Some repeated blows to the head. And this, for several years, was really the headline in the NFL, which is brain damage, far and wide. Yes. Although to be fair, the evidence for this is very difficult to assess. Yeah, exactly. It's a difficult thing to exactly nail down, but.

18:29You can't diagnose it while someone's living. Exactly. The brains that are donated for research predominantly come from people who died young or tragically. Yes. There's a bit of a strange thing that, you know, this thing comes out and this thing that happens around the time that I'm like really thinking about retiring. So you're saying it gave you cover? It gave me very good cover. I mean, of course, it was like- Because until then you weren't concerned about it, particularly, were you? Before then, I was concerned about it. There's a couple things going on. You can focus exclusively on CTE. Yeah. Or you can talk more broadly about the wear and tear that your body suffers. And what I was concerned about, like that off season, was I was sort of thinking, is this going to be my last season or do I even want to do another season? You're playing off your rookie contracts still, I assume, right? Yes. So this is the last year of my rookie contract. And your next contract had you gotten one, which you probably would have. You were on a trajectory to get one. That would have been a lot more money, correct? Yeah, I mean, a decent amount. I mean, at least a million a year. But like my base salary, I think the first year in the league was 420.

19:31Okay. And so, you know, I'm thinking, maybe I do one more, maybe I don't. And, you know, I'm going back and forth. And I'm just saying, no, I'm not going to, like, come on, I need to. And then I say, no, I should, you know, sort of going back to high school, me, this, like, I have a year left on my contract. I need to see my contract out. Mm-hmm. So this is similar to when you committed to Penn State, and even if Stanford might have been a nice choice for you. Yeah. But when you were talking about having committed to Penn State, you said, at the time, I had a lot of moral, whatever. Yeah, so at the time, again, I was really sort of, these days, I don't even know why I was, I mean, I get it. But like, they could have fired me whenever they wanted. Well, I know. And so. That's a good point. And these contracts are not guaranteed. And they're not guaranteed. If you're hurt, you're done. And, you know, in hindsight, why is this such a hard decision? Like, I needed to retire and focus on math and like, go, like, hang out with my kid. And the more time I spent at MIT, math really sort of went above.

20:32And then, you know, this idea of being a parent. This is also going above. And so now, like, in hindsight, like, it footballs the third most important thing to me. And it's a legitimate liability for the first two, you know, for, you know, a long math career, not to mention all the hours it's taking away. And the toll, it's, you know, it takes on your body, you know, not even your head, but, you know, your entire body to walk when I'm 50, to, you know, be able to pick up my grandkids or, you know, even pick up my daughter when, you know, okay. Let's say 100 people in America, what share of them would you say probably like math? A truly honest answer. I'm going to say if we define math based off what they think math is, is 4% too low in America. Oh, wow. That's, okay. So that's a shockingly low and slightly sad number. Because I find that, you know, some people, you know, say I really like math, but it's

21:39very rare. Even among quantitative people, I find something. Well, back up a minute. You said it depends what you think of math as. So why don't we figure out what you think of math as? I would say my sort of view of math is math is some quantitative language that we all collectively have, that we use to reason about problems. And so when I think of an engineer, I think that's math. When I think of, you know, someone doing physics in some sort of theoretical way that's using quantitative information, I think this is math. I think of statistics as math. I think of theoretical computer science as math. And so I have a very broad view. And I really think about it as not so far apart from doing puzzles, not so far apart from, you know, just this goal of understanding something. Last semester at MIT, John taught Matrix analysis and computations. I thought it might be fun to have a private math lesson with him. So we picked a bunch of problems from a textbook and we used a big spinning wheel, the kind

22:39you'd use on a game show, to let gravity decide which one to solve. So I thought maybe if you could walk us through a proof of some kind, is that what you would call it typically? Yeah. So it's a beautiful spinning wheel. Okay. It's a lot of math problems that I'm told are not that hard. I see. So you picked some very hard things. You think they are hard? I mean, I see a lot of millennium problems. What is a millennium problem, John? You solve it, you get a million dollars. Yeah. Okay. I guess it isn't fair to give John a problem that has never been solved, but can't blame me for trying. We'll give the wheel. Another spin. Okay. Let's see what we get. So what can you show us about Cantor's Diagnol? Yeah. Cantor's diagonal argument is about something that's really hard to think about, but is pretty cool. And the idea is that there's levels of infinity. So it's about infinity and it's about levels of infinity.

23:40Wait, stop right there. What does that mean? Okay. So first, let's think about something infinite we know. If I just started counting numbers, you know, one, two, three, four, five, I do happen to like math, but I have a sense that John Urschelmath is well beyond my comprehension. So we'll just do our best. There are infinitely many numbers in the set, every, you know, whole number, but some infinities are bigger than others. So for instance, when you're a kid and you say infinity plus one, yeah, yeah. So let's say, okay, this has infinitely many things. And also if I looked at this set, which I'll denote with an R, this contains all of these numbers. Sure. I guess. Now let me bring in a third player. Okay. A third player? I'm still processing the first two. This is starting to make football seem simple. You might say this feels bigger than that. But I could define some pairing of them where for every number here, I pair it to a unique

24:47number here. Okay. Are you following this? Each one of these boxes, I get a number. So I say, this is my first number. Okay. And I say, this is my second number. This is my third one. This is my fourth one, my fifth one, my sixth one. Okay. Though they're both infinite, the sort of size of the infinities are the same because I can associate with every number in this one a unique number in this one, one hundred plus one hundred times one times two squared, which is the same as that. Got it. And so if it can't be in the list, then it means that all the numbers between zero and one, I can't count them. They're what we call uncountable. So that means there are more than one infinity. There's more than one infinity, and this is countable infinity, and this is uncountable infinity. Okay. I feel like I understood a solid like 4% of what you just taught me. Well, I mean, to be clear, it blew my mind the first time I saw it. Like infinity is really a hard thing to get your hands on. It dawns on me that for John Erichel, doing math is to a large degree playing.

25:52The same way that football is also to some large degree playing. And he loved it, especially the hitting part. But over time, he came to love other things. Meaning my wife really taught me, I would say, about some of the softer things in life. For instance, my wife is a writer, an amazing writer. Really good. I'll vouch for that. She's a really good writer. She majored in English and college. Her name is Louise Atama. She was the top of the record, yeah. Of course. You met your wife when she came to write an article about you. And she came to write an article about me. She thought she was going to be a poet originally. And she writes about sports in a very, very interesting one. In a very sort of holistic and thoughtful. And I would say even in a beautiful way. She really paints these pictures of these scenes. And so I sort of started to gain an appreciation of just the nicer things in life. We go on vacation in upstate New York, we stay in a little cottage and things are nice

26:55and quiet. She's reading things. And there's a softness. You have a daughter and a son now. How would you feel about either them playing football? So I hope it's okay for me to say the daughter I don't think should be playing football. I think that's a level of danger and risk I wouldn't want. All right, that's your daughter. What about your son? My son, I think I would let him if it really seemed like something he needed to do. And what I mean by needed to do football is a great sport. If you're a young person who really craves and really feels like you could benefit from like consensual violence, from controlled consensual aggression, some place where you're following rules, you're not trying to hurt anyone. I mean, it's a proxy for war if you think about it. You're just going out on the field and you're running into people hitting people.

27:56Right. And I think that was really good for me as an aggressive, high school kid. And so if that was the case, I would say, oh, maybe we try wrestling, maybe we try judo. But if he really wanted to, I would have been with him. But he's like three years old. So you got a little time. And it's three years old by the time. But if he just says, oh, I want to because you did or I want to because my friends did. And I think, no, you really, I really want to make sure you're ready for that. That you have like, you really have the right. I get it. You have the disposition that's really meant for that. I get it. What's your relationship like with football now? So these days, I don't do so much. I mean, watch. I watch. So my best friend is a coach. He's the tight ends coach for Penn State right now. And so I watch Penn State when he was, you know, the offensive coordinator for Western Illinois. I would watch Western Illinois. Every time I could. So I watch a lot. NFL, you watching? Not so much. I just don't have time. I mean, I don't even have time to watch enough college football. I just sort of watch, you know, I watch whatever team my best friend's coach.

28:58I have to say, I'm just like so taken by you because you're very, very good at a few difficult things, which, you know, I just admire people who accomplish things like that because they're hard to do. No, I might subtract a little bit because, you know, talent plays a role in that. Yes. And you're plainly talented both athletically and mathematically. I mean, no, you're not that good. In terms of athletically, I mean, I've sort of come around to the fact that I do have some athletic talent like I have broad shoulders. But if you compare me, let's say to NFL players, I am not talent. So how did you succeed? Hard work. Just an incredible amount of hard work. Where did the ability and desire to work that hard come from? Wanting to do better. So, you know, for instance, talent or is that a, like when you look back at the totality of your life to date, when you 34, 35, 34, 34, when you look back at your life thus far,

30:00and you look at, you know, let's just take the top two, math professor and NFL player. And parent, let's say, right? Those are all nice, nice accomplishments. Yeah. And you had to create a little pie chart for, you know, genetics, environment, will, luck. How do you assess your route? A lot of luck, obviously. I mean, I think most people don't think when they've succeeded, obviously. Yeah, but okay, let me put it like this, you know. I'm a, no, I'm a math professor at MIT, like how many, you know, how many people, you know, there's not that many of us. Many of dreaming of being that, you're saying? Yeah, well, a lot of people actually do dream of that, you know, a lot of like really strong people do. And so how does luck not, you know, play, like yes, you need to be good. Did your football reputation help you get that, John? I don't know, I hope not. Mm-hmm, no. Yeah, I hope not. Yeah. I have to say, it's just so great to talk with you, to learn from you. I feel like, I feel like you're like the little brother I never had.

31:03Well, I appreciate that. And also the math teacher I never had. Okay. So, you know, thanks for coming by. Yeah. It was great to talk to you, man. Thanks for having me. Thanks again for checking out this audio version of our new TV. Talk show better in person if you would like to see the whole conversation go to the Frekenomics YouTube channel or search for better in person on Apple podcasts. And that is a wrap on this 10 episode pilot season of the show. I'd love to know what you think of it. Our email is radio at Frekenomics.com. We will be back soon right here with more Frekenomics radio. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too. I thought it would be really fun to show some footage of you playing. Yes. And go over it. But do you know how expensive it is to license NFL footage? Like I'm making a TV show in my living room. Okay. So I'm not the money to waste. Do you know how expensive it is? Yeah, we looked into it. Okay, for 60 seconds, I'm going to guess 5,000.

32:04Oh, John Urshel, you're bad at math, man. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Thanks again to ChatGPT for sponsoring today's episode of Better in Person. ChatGPT can help teams move from goals to real outcomes, put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today.