How Should the UK Respond to the Global Energy Crisis?

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1:00And gasp and horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news. It's emotionally unstable. Lunatic in the newsroom. Listen today. Paddy you're wearing a rather lovely tie. I put a tie on because Kemi Baynot came into the studio and you're always very well dressed and I thought I should for a party leader should dress up. Now I've had spies who watched your programme tell me that you've stolen one of my questions and put it to the leader of the opposition. Like a terrible magpie. Let's have a listen. Who would you support? So let's trust paid everybody's energy bill when there was the last energy shock around the war in Ukraine costing tens of billions to the taxpayer who would get support if you were in. It's shiny. Well it's a great phrase all the time. I used it about you. The argument is shifting this time is that youth raises target. I think there's going to be targeted. It's not going to be blanket, isn't it? Correct. And we've been talking about that for actually for ages for about three weeks since this first reared its head. The whole question of

2:01the war in the Middle East leading to a big price and a big increase in the price of oil, which sooner or later, sadly the reality is it's probably going to lead to much higher energy bills for people here at home. So the political debate in this country is rather hot and heavy around what to do about the cost of energy, how to produce it, where it should come from, and whether or not this country would ever be able to produce enough of its own. Welcome to Sunday's newscast. Newscast from the BBC. That boy sliver me in the classroom doing our violin lessons. I was the toppled tail in the class. Can I have an apology please? I trust almost nobody. That daddy has to sometimes do a strong language. Next time in Moscow. I feel delulu with no salulu. Take me down to Downey Street, let's go have a tour. Blimey. Hello it's Paddy in the studio. It's Laura in the studio. And hello it's Henry at home. Hello Henry. Hi how you doing? All right thank you. Now before we get stuck in to the debate about energy, which is getting quite hot and fractious I think in Westminster, certainly was on the TV this morning.

3:06We wanted to say thank you very much for all your messages about our exclusive interview yesterday with Josh Simon's the government minister who had to quit. He said having been naive when he did what appears now to have been a very strange thing when he was the head of a think tank he asked a lobbying firm to look into the origins of a news story about the think tank he worked at having failed to declare financial donations properly. So Paul Holden was mentioned. He responds to the interviews that his reporting on Labour together in Morgan McSweeney was entirely factually accurate and in the public interest. This is something that he's told us. And Paul Holden was one of the people who had had information that led to the reporting about these undeclared donations. He said that the firm was hired to undermine his reporting. As you suggested, Mr. Holden believes APCO, which were the lobbying firm, were hired to investigate me in order to produce materials that would proactively undermine my factually accurate public

4:07interest reporting. Simon's may claim he never intended for APCO to investigate me, but he did refer it onto others after receiving it. Yes. Also, we've never seen any evidence at the BBC that the reporting came from a hack of the Electoral Commission. So that's all post the story starting. But when it started, it still boiled down to two or three central facts which remain on the public record. Labour together had a massive undeclared 730,000 pounds. So do we move on now to the energy stream? I think we should, but I think we should also say it was really interesting. I thought to hear Simon's talk about not just what had happened and his regrets and feeling naive, but also to talk about what he had done when he was working at Meta because the issue of social media addiction, which was found to be something that exists by an American court this week, was something that he claimed warned about when he was working for one of the big platforms.

5:07So it's really interesting and it's still in your feeds if you want to go back and have a listen. So Henry, we go to the appearance of the leader of the opposition, Kemi Badenock, on Laura's television and on Radio 4 and other places, saying Drill Baby Drill. Which is now her well-established position, but I think we should not just walk past how significant it is that we have and have had for a bit of time, but this crisis is making clearer than ever, such a clear disagreement across the political spectrum, including between Labour and the Conservatives on energy policy in a way which we didn't have for quite some time. I mean, there's an argument, perhaps it's an over-simple argument, but there's an argument that essentially the Conservative governments, more or less, continued the policy established by Ed Miliband when he was energy secretary the first time round under Gordon Brown when they were in government and of course it was Theresa May who legislated for the government to hit net zero by 2050. Something that the Conservatives still support net zero,

6:09that is however there is clearly much more daylight between Labour and the Conservatives and then also of course the other parties which make up our multi-party politics on energy policy than there has been for a very long time and I think this crisis is drawing that in very stark detail. I think it is and I also think this is going to be the tram lines of a very, very major argument that's going to go on at Westminster for months and months and months and months I think because if you think about the context of what's happening in the war, it seems clear even if it were to end tomorrow there's going to be an impact on energy production for quite some time and therefore I think politicians going to keep coming back to this partly because it's interesting Henry as you say that they don't agree so there's a kind of intense clash that's interesting to one pick but also because this is such an issue in people's everyday lives and not all the political barnies that there are actually have that truth at the heart of it. Everybody's got to pay their energy bill one way or another. Everybody is worried if energy prices go up and it could be something

7:09that happens in a very big way and that's even before we start talking about jobs in the North sea or jobs in renewable industries and you've got one of the challenger parties if you want to call them that way ahead in the polls reform wanting to make this a huge issue too they've been trying to make it a big issue for ages and of course who's the other challenger big entrant to politics at the moment the Greens they want it to be a big issue as well so you've got the war you've got the reality of high energy bills for millions of ordinary people coming down the track and you've also got the two challengers are either side of the political spectrum both wanting to make this an issue so if you put that all together you get a big fat argument and this was what Kemi Badeknot was saying this morning. Drill baby drill is that your message? Yes absolutely I do think that we need to drill our own oil and gas in the North Sea we are importing 40% of our gas from Norway who are drilling in the very same basin we're importing oil from places much further

8:10afield dirty oil rather than doing it more cleanly at home we're losing so many jobs about a thousand jobs a month being lost in the North Sea oil industry particularly impacting Scotland but the whole country and this is terrible for our financial security for our energy security we should drill our own oil and gas. Because Claire Coutinho your shadow secretary for energy said on BBC breakfast it wouldn't necessarily bring energy down energy bills down can you tell our listeners would you be able to bring down their bills by drilling baby drilling? So indirectly yes we have a plan to bring down this cheap power plan what do you do is you get the taxes from it you can use to subsidise bills which is what the government is doing but your shadow energy secretary Claire Coutinho who was with us a couple of weeks ago she said on the record it wouldn't necessarily save very much money she said that when she was in government directly directly but indirectly

9:12yes it does because you can use the money from there to subsidise but more importantly jobs are disappearing we are losing about a thousand jobs a month. Gosh we're a bossy pair aren't we? Henry that policy difference is where you want us to look it may not be quite clear how soon the Conservatives can get any gas out of the basin or what it'll do to bills but you're telling us look how the parties now have a chasm between them on this matter. What's quite interesting I think is that actually both Labour and the Conservatives core argument is that each other is being unnecessarily ideological so if you take Kenny Badenock's argument it is that the government the Labour Party are putting green ideology before the willingness to do whatever that they possibly can to potentially bring bills down even indirectly as she acknowledged there and you know she is arguing that of course you ought to deploy all the resources that are potentially at your

10:12disposal in a moment of crisis such as this. The argument of the government is that given Kenny Badenock acknowledges that this would not have a direct impact on bills she is being ideological in her determination to drill rather than acknowledging the energy security benefits which come from which come from clean power and renewable power and so I think you know that is kind of the core of the debate here I mean it's clear that it is by the way it seems pretty clear at this point I mean let's see how bad the crisis gets but it seems pretty clear this is a debate which is not going to be resolved this side of a general election in Kenny Badenock's favour which is to say I think the government has committed I think perhaps we discussed this last week there was a moment not so long ago when there was a bit of a wobble in government about the energy policy of Ed Milaband which is the energy policy of this government but that has been resolved in Ed Milaband's favour and I do I do not think this government is going to grant new licenses

11:13for drilling in the North Sea which after all is what they committed to in the general election campaign where they won the general election. It's interesting though I thought there was a slightly tonal difference between what Richard Phillips said and what Ed Milaband would say just there was just a tiny hint of degree in her kind of enthusiasm for saying well of course the North Sea is still important which yes Ed Milaband would also say yes the North Sea is still important and it will be for some time but I did just think there was a tiny difference in her attitude to that what's also true step out of the big political fandango for a while is it if you talk to lots of experts in this industry where people in the business like the boss of centricle one of the biggest energy companies in the world who told us last week yes this is a moment to go full steam ahead on renewables but yes it's also a moment to use everything you've got so the parties are being ideological but actually a time like this maybe some experts say actually you should crack on with it all what we were also trying to push Bridget Phillips and on this

12:15morning is the state of the government's emergency planning now we do not newscasters want to panic anyone at all it's important to know people like the AA the RAC say there are no shortages at the moment this is you can go about your business as normal you shouldn't be like rushing to the four courts going fill up however you've got reputable big names like Astor and the boss of BP saying there could be shortages so we were trying to press Bridget Phillips and on what the government would do in that case she was incredibly tight lipped but this is what she had to say about the people who'd get help if there's a big rise in bills later in the year we will of course always act to protect not just the British national interests but British consumers here at home you'll see that in the approach that we've taken around energy bills lots of measures that are coming in from next week that are going to make a big difference to people I know that the cost of living pressures that families are experiencing are still tough and that's why the lifting of the awful two child limit takes effect that will put money back into people's pockets all of the

13:19measures that we're bringing in around that I'm introducing around free breakfast clubs expanding free school meals the fact that energy costs will continue to be capped that should all provide reassurance to the public that we as a government are on the side of the public we will do what is necessary to make sure that people are supported whatever happens I mean look I think this is another week where we've had government ministers on your programs kind of acknowledging sometimes implicitly sometimes explicitly that they have no real influence over the trajectory of a conflict which is turning into a global crisis including for the UK and I think that's a very uneasy obviously position for government ministers to find themselves in there is all sorts of planning going on we're told in the treasury in particular about what they would do and what the government might have to do in different scenarios but often when parts of government are contingency planning for

14:20different scenarios they have some ability to shape what scenario transpires and I think you know it's not it's not really overdoing it to say that this government has almost no influence over what scenario transpires here and yeah that's absolutely right and while Keir Starmer thinks he might be getting some political credit for staying out of the war in its offensive nature that's not being a close ally marching alongside the US metaphorically that means these got not very much influence over what happens next that means we're in that kind of position where our politicians here are arguing about the consequences of the conflict in the Middle East they're not arguing about what should actually happen next when it comes to the consequences of the conflict in the Middle East we had Zio Yusuf reform spokesperson for Home Affairs this morning on the programme two their policy is to get rid of VAT on energy bills and also they like the

15:22conservatives would not raise fuel duty which is projected to grow up in September and then let's talk about the Greens Zach Polanski wants a hike in taxes on capital gains and a tightening of an existing tax on energy firm profits to support houses if energy bills went up so back to your point Henry we're seeing this I mean we've always said it's the NHS the NHS the NHS the NHS if you want to understand British politics but actually do I take your lead and say energy energy energy in and of itself is perhaps a fairly sort of niche issue or has typically been seen as that probably wrongly by British politics but energy now is the cost of living and energy is the economy I mean I think we've said this before as well and I'm sorry we're repeating ourselves but I suspect or I'm repeating myself but I suspect I will again and again because this is likely to be the story of the coming weeks and months Keir Starmer at the start of this year wanted to talk

16:23relentlessly about the cost of living now that wasn't just because he was told by focus groups and so on that that was the voters first priority and first in their minds it's also because the government was beginning to dare to hope that the cost of living would start to improve in 2026 and I think you can't overdue what a blow it is for the government that they now find themselves talking about the cost of living but not because it is starting to turn a corner but because it is their fear and probably the reality that there's going to be a rocky period ahead for many people as a result of what is going on in the middle. Hi this is Alex Cantrowitz I'm the host of Big Technology podcast a long time reporter and an on air contributor to CNBC and if you're like me you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives so each week on Big Technology I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it asking where this is all going they come from places like Nvidia Microsoft Amazon and plenty more

17:29so if you want to be smart with your wallet your career choices and meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties listen to Big Technology podcast wherever you get your podcasts Have you ever received a call from a stranger regarding student loans you don't owe an unpaid parking ticket for a car that you don't even own if so you might have been the target of a scam orchestrated by criminals of thousands of miles away I'm Tristan Redman one of the hosts of the global story podcast and we're taking a linside look at the highly lucrative scam factories of Southeast Asia listen to the global story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts and the Lib Dems of course I've got a plan for this too and Davey for the Lib Dem says that the government should be really generous is his phrase he said there needs to be some targeting of help for energy bills but there are lots of people on low and middle incomes who just wouldn't be able to afford a big increase in bills reminding us that the government has hinted so far that people who rely on benefits will be

18:32those to get help with energy bills they haven't yet been forthcoming about people who don't live on benefits they don't need benefits but they just might really struggle whether a huge increase in energy but the Lib Dems say that there should be more support than the government is already promising and that's interesting because that's about my household your household the newscaster's household bills but I was reading in the weekend papers there's another bill which is the government debt not only that it's Rachel Reeves's headroom if she's got to pay more for government borrowing and if she's got to pay some million people's gas bills not all million people's gas bill then the big part of her budget which she was protecting as headroom is halved or evaporates so Henry's all connected to Rachel Reeves's position as Chancellor yeah absolutely and you know who knows where the conversation will be by the time she delivers her next budget in the autumn if indeed she does deliver her next budget in the autumn

19:33because you do encounter the occasional politician in the Labour Party including quite senior people government ministers and so on who wonder whether after the local elections Keir Starmer might change his Chancellor but just assume that it's Rachel Reeves yeah I mean I'm sure she is already worrying fretting about what the implications of this will be for her budget I think that's one reason why last week or is it still just about this week Rachel Reeves sort of set out in advance the principles that she would apply to any bailout of households when they come to pay their energy bills and make clear that it would be targeted in a fairly limited way and I think that is you know that is that will go down fine with late that did go down fine with Labour MPs and I'm sure many voters will instinctively be in the same place until she then identifies as and when the time comes what the threshold actually is and you know this government like others

20:37has learned that when you apply a threshold there are lots of boundary cases that fall on the wrong side of the boundary where people think they should be on the other side and I think that will be a big political divide and a big political argument if and when the moment for that bailout comes and don't forget Keir Starmer has not got a great track record for being able to stick to things that he tells his party he needs to do if they are unpopular and if we get to the autumn and your average Joe's energy bill is likely to go up by 500 quid for example as some estimates suggest it might do the idea that a Labour chancellor and an unpopular Labour government is going to say to most people sorry we're not going to help you at all that seems very very politically challenging but we will see and it's a long way off what we do know though is if we look behind us that the lessons from history show that energy crises actually can do for politicians Paddy you've been looking back in time yes so we asked Jeremy Bowen the BBC's Jeremy Bowen to tell us about the

21:411970s which is when finally enough Saudi Arabia then talked about how it could use its oil weapon against the West so at the time the spokesman for the Saudis was Shakyamani one of the most powerful well-known people in the world and he spoke bluntly and honestly about the fact that if the war that Israel was pursuing was supported increasingly by the West and by the United States Saudi could just turn off the oil I think what we have as an oil weapon is far more greater than what we did what we did is nothing at all I think we can cut down production to let's say 20 percent you think Europe or or Japan or the United States can survive with this your whole economy will definitely collapse all of this sudden I mean of course the other comparison that you occasionally hear people make the 1970s is that during energy shocks and during periods of rising prices

22:43governments lose elections incumbent governments and that's a parallel from the 1970s which will be weighing heavily on governments not just in the UK but around the world and it's also a parallel that you can probably just draw to the last few years I mean we know in 2024 when of course the conservatives lost office here there were all sorts of incumbent governments around the world in that period of inflation which had followed Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine who also lost election lost re-election and you know that is certainly one of the many anxieties in the minds of people in the government here and I don't want to be stealing America's thunder but Donald Trump was elected in part on the promise to give $2 gasoline and it's already above three anyway three and a half I think so you've got a situation where the pump in the United States is really going to be having a massive influence and it's been said bluntly that that's why he's been posting to bring the oil price down he wants to get it down but he hasn't got

23:49control of the straight of all moves so it goes back up again after he's posted to make it go down again and in the 1970s there wasn't politicians jumping on social media to do things to try to get the world to dance to their tune but that is the world that we live in now how do you think about my audition there for America's do you think that was good up again down again is that going to get me on America's I think they might get back to me Henry do we have anything to look forward to in the world I mean look forward to sounds positive and the answer that's probably no I mean this week Parliament is in recess but I think the Labour Party is launching its local elections campaign well I mean it's obviously local elections in England but also national elections in Scotland and Wales yes and we have talked for so long about what a crucial set of elections these are for Sir Keir Starmer I think they are made very slightly less crucial by the international

24:51situation putting them into perspective and also giving Sir Keir Starmer an opportunity to display leadership on the global stage which he believes he's done and his team belief has gone down pretty well with the country and his party but nevertheless it will be fascinating to see what arguments the Labour Party does make in the run-up to those elections to try to the very least alleviate what even they believe are going to be some pretty stinging losses quite so and we will have to look back and see if they use the same arguments and we all them out again that they use the morning after the May elections in 2025 so we will see that we should have a ban on the word crucial election yes should we find should we get a journalistic sort of bell every time someone says this is a key set of elections yes or key targets that is a target is a target you don't have to say key targets either a target or it's not a target I think it's always useful and I'm not the expert that you two are the public are the boss the public's the

25:52boss and every now and again it comes up and it's a more linked for me the pressure from my bills times 60 million Britons is that is it that's in a reminder of why we're talking about the energy and the elections are the public getting with their pencil out yeah that's the most exciting room and then it goes the power for those 24 hours is in the ether it goes over to the public and then they hand it back to the politicians sometimes with two fingers on it so exciting and I'm already getting quite excited I might start listening to the election theme music because that just I'm sad like that but yeah we'll have tons of coverage of that of mega me which Hanna you corrected yourself before I needed to tell you off there are local elections in England and very important national elections in Scotland and in Wales so if you hear anybody saying they're local elections that's not all they are Henry you're smiling oh well I'm I'm just pleased that Laura noticed that midway through the sentence I made sure I delivered the approved BBC terminology always approving the approved BBC terminology marvellous I was Easter

26:54I'm patty you're going to disappear and I'm going to disappear so I think we can see look forward to that you can have a rest from us in your luggles and also there's chocolate eggs and all sorts of nice things that can happen at East and all those so Laura and I won't be here but the best news of all is that there will there will be special programs to keep you company next weekend goodbye goodbye goodbye newscast newscast from the BBC thank you so much for making it to the end of newscast you clearly copyright christmas and ooh stamina can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC sounds don't forget you can email us anytime it's newscast at bbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our discord community to talk about everything newscast related there is a link in the description of this podcast and don't be scared it's super easy to click on it and then get set up or you can WhatsApp us on zero three three zero one two three nine four eight zero and I promise

27:55you we read and listen to every single message thanks for listening to this podcast bye have you ever received a call from a stranger regarding student loans you don't know an unpaid parking ticket for a car that you don't even own if so you might have been the target of a scam orchestrated by criminals of thousands of miles away I'm Tristan Redman one of the hosts of the global story podcast and we're taking a linside look at the highly lucrative scam factories of southe stager listen to the global story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts