How should e-bikes be regulated?

0:00Hey, it's Willis, a producer here at OnPoint. One of my favorite parts about being a producer here is hearing from you, our listeners about the show. What you like, what you thought of our guests, what you thought of what they had to say, and what topics you hope will cover. And what I love about the new OnPoint Club is that we're going to have more opportunities to share what's behind the scenes and how we put the show together for you. If you're not a member of the OnPoint Club yet, click on the link in the episode description to sign up. For $7 a month, you'll get first access to the Jackpot each week, other exclusive content, and you'll be the first to know about special live events. Now stick around for today's show. And we'll see you next week.

1:00This is OnPoint. I'm Amari Sievertson in for Magna Chakrabardi. Just this past weekend, I was walking with a friend and her ambling 19-month-old on a community path in my neighborhood. There were joggers, there were rollerbladers, parents pushing strollers, people walking dogs, and families out for a bike ride. It was bustling, which means there were a lot of bells dinging and calls of on your left from people coming up behind us. And at some point, we paused on the side of the path. And all of a sudden, along came something going much, much faster than any of us. It was a guy on an e-bike. And he wasn't traveling on the right side of the path like everyone else. He was zooming straight up the middle. No bell, no vocal warning, no helmet, just whoosh. Now had my friend and her younger son and I not been pulled over on the side of the path at that moment, I'm not actually sure we could have gotten out of this e-biker's way

2:01in time. OnPoint listener James Durema from Syracuse, New York, can relate. Now when I go for a walk, I have to carry a rare view mirror. Our listeners have strong opinions about e-bikes if you can believe it, whether or not they should be allowed at all, where they should be allowed and who should be allowed to ride them. When I see kids on e-bikes, my soul hurts. That was onPoint listener Joseph and we'll be hearing from more listeners on all sides of the e-bike issue throughout the show. But the reality is, e-bikes are more popular than ever and more powerful than ever. Some can be modified to go upwards of 40 miles an hour, some way as much as 80 pounds. These are not the bikes of my childhood and the e-bike accidents are not the bike accidents of my childhood either. A WBWR report found that some of the largest pediatric trauma centers in Massachusetts have seen a sharp increase in serious injuries from accidents involving electric bikes and

3:04scooters. According to the American College of Surgeons, Rady Children's Health in Orange County, California treated only one pediatric e-bike crash patient in 2021 and more than 220 in 2025. At Rady's Children's Hospital in San Diego, California, e-bike patients made up more than 40% of the hospital's trauma cases in 2025. The share of trauma cases seen by Bellevue Hospital's emergency room in New York City that involved e-bikes or scooters was less than 10% in 2018 and more than 50% by 2023. But e-bike laws from Massachusetts to California to New York, they vary widely, state to state, even city to city. And while local governments are working to make e-bikes safer, e-bike sales are climbing faster than the legislation can keep up. Today, on point, we're looking at the rise of e-bikes and the rising concerns around

4:06them, from safety to how difficult it is to regulate them. So why is it so hard to get e-bikes to stay in their lane, so to speak? And what even is their lane on the road and in society? Or what should it be? Well joining us now is Seth Alvo. He's the YouTube creator behind the channel Burm Peak, which has more than two million subscribers and covers all things biking. Seth Alvo, welcome to On Point. Thanks so much for having me, Amory. So do you own an e-bike? Yes, I own several e-bikes. My wife has an e-bike. I have several e-bikes that I've tested that are still in the shop. I don't ride a lot of e-bikes to be perfectly honest, but I work on them a lot. They're very fun to work on. They are fun to ride and they're very useful. Can you take me back to the first time you rode an e-bike as someone who is more of a, what would you say, like an analog cyclist?

5:11What did that first ride feel like? It was kind of eye-opening because especially when e-bikes were not mainstream and not known to everyone, you just imagine, okay, it's a bicycle with a motor. How could it still be called the bicycle of Asa motor on it? As a motorcycle. Then when I tried an e-bike, my eyes immediately were open to what they actually are. The e-bike that I rode was a pedal-assist e-mountain bike and it had torque sensing. When you push down on the pedal of a torque sensing e-bike, it actually senses exactly how hard you are pushing on the pedal and it responds proportionally. To some people, it can almost trick you into thinking you're stronger because it feels so much like pedaling. In an e-bike like that, I don't think there's much of an issue with it operates like a bicycle. It's a similar size and weight as a bicycle. Anything that you've learned from riding a bicycle can map onto that.

6:13There's no learning curve. You can just sit on and start riding. Does the e-bike now, you said you have your wife has one, you've ridden several of them, does it play a practical role in your life or fill a void that your regular bicycles don't? Yes, in a way, not necessarily for me. One of my parents comes into town and they're both in their 70s and they don't bicycle very often. We can ride at a brisk pace and they can go the same speed as me and I don't have to teach them anything. I can just sit them on an e-bike and they can start going. I think it's a great way to get more people on bicycles. It's also worth noting, I live out in the country. I used to live in a city where I could use my bicycle to get everywhere. Now when I'm on a bicycle, it's mainly recreationally and I think there's a need for e-bikes as a practical transportation device that I don't actually use them for on a daily basis or I don't anymore. I'm definitely going to want to come back to this point that you made about no learning

7:15curve. I want to bring another voice into this conversation for now. Matt Moore is joining us. He's Policy Council for People for Bikes. It's a trade association that represents manufacturers and importers of bicycles and e-bikes and works with government agencies on issues related to cycling. Matt Moore, welcome to On Point. Oh, thank you so much for having me and hello Seth. I've been following you somewhat on YouTube. I'm not a subscriber. Not yet. So Matt, I feel like we need a little e-bike 101 because some people might have a picture in their mind of what an e-bike is but it turns out that what qualifies as an e-bike is not so straightforward and the definition really does matter. So what is an e-bike? So there is a defined vehicle type under federal law. It's called a low speed electric bicycle and that definition was created in 2002 by Congress to provide a uniform national definition for this vehicle type to support its adoption.

8:19The definition has a motor of less than 750 watts. It has operable pedals and it can go no more than 20 miles per hour when it's powered by the motor alone. It's important to remember that this is a preemptive definition. Congress made this chose to make this preemptive of any state or local laws that would define a low speed electric bicycle in a more restrictive way. Okay. So states and cities can't redefine what an e-bike is per se but what can they control in terms of how e-bikes are allowed to operate and where they're allowed to operate. You know, it's really very similar to how the federal government deals with motor vehicles. There are motor vehicle safety standards that apply to every motor vehicle that's manufactured or imported into the United States. States however still regulate the operation of motor vehicles. What you can do with that motor vehicle within the state where you can drive it, the licensing,

9:23registration, etc., are matters of state law. Similarly, 46 states now have adopted a class system for defining and regulating electric bicycles. Now, in these states, it does basically include this federal definition but then it also defines the various types of electric bicycles that were available when the class system was developed. The vehicle for bikes created this three class model and then we worked to have it adopted in 46 states and actually the federal government uses it now as well. There is something powerful about the sound of the human voice. Beautifully produced audio has the unique power to connect and inspire. Find out your organization's story with a custom podcast from city-space productions,

10:25the Creative Studio from WBUR's Business Partnership Team. Become a thought leader. We're a crew new talent. Reach new audiences. Whatever your goal, we can help. Discover how the magic is made at www.org-creative-studio. It's Ben Brock Johnson, director of digital audio at WBUR. We've probably been following our consistent coverage of the Lindsay Clancy case, along with people around the country and around the world. Well, if you want to hear even more from WBUR's own veteran reporter Deborah Becker, who has been covering the story for three years. We're putting deep dive podcast episodes and analysis about the Clancy case in a podcast feed. You can listen by searching Beyond All Repair wherever you get your podcasts. I want to get into this class system a little bit. And I wonder if you can just start with what is a Class 1 e-bike? Sure. A Class 1 is a pedal assist bicycle that applies motor power when the rider is pedaling.

11:28It caps out at a maximum of 20 miles per hour. These are often either cargo bikes or electric mountain bikes that are really intended for use off of public roads. Class 2 is an e-bike that has a throttle. So if you're called that federal definition no more than 20 miles per hour on motor power alone, that definition allows the use of a throttle if the e-bike stops at 20 miles per hour. And so that is Class 2. And so you don't have to be pedaling for it to go 20 miles an hour, is that right? No, you do not. And this type of e-bike actually has become pretty popular either with a throttle, maybe it has pedal assist modes as well. But you know, on a longer ride or on a steep hill, some people like that extra assistance to be able to use the throttle or at the end of the ride, I've always found that last five miles or 30 minutes of my ride as the toughest.

12:29They like to be able to use the throttle to get themselves where they're going. Okay. And what about Class 3? So Class 3 is a pedal assist electric bicycle that has a maximum assisted speed of 28 miles per hour. 28, you said. 28 miles per hour. There is no maximum pedal assisted speed that's defined in the federal law. But people for bikes in developing our model law said we think 28 is about as fast as a person on an analog bicycle can ride at a consistent speed if they're fairly fit. And that's also the maximum speed of an electric bicycle in Europe that is called a speed pedal. It is an assisted device that can go 45 kilometers an hour or 28 miles per hour. So it's a recognized e-bike that was already being made. And that was just translated over into the Class 3 bike for US purposes.

13:33Okay. And I understand this three class model is based on the European approach to e-bikes. Is that right? Can you say more about how Europe treats e-bikes? The motor power limit in Europe is 250 watts. And it's specifically stated as continuous rated power. Whereas the US limit is 750 watts without further definition of how that's determined. But many of the, especially in the earlier days, many of the motor systems, there were a few major suppliers of drive systems. And they could be modified by their manufacturers to fit the limitations in each market. A little assist bike in Europe is limited to about 15.5 miles an hour. And that's currently the law there, rather than 20 miles per hour in the US. But otherwise the drive systems at the time were very similar.

14:34Okay. So Seth Alvo, I'm sure a lot of people are listening to this already. And like me are thinking, what am I even looking at? And I, you know, in preparing for this conversation, I was doing a lot of looking around in terms of the differences between, say, an e-bike and a moped or an e-bike and an e-motor cycle. So can you help break down some of those differences? Yes. And actually, as Matt has pointed out, these bikes can be very, very different. Before when I said that there's zero learning curve on riding an e-bike, I was referring specifically to a class one e-bike with torque sensing. If you sit on one of those and start pedaling, it's going to feel pretty much just like a normal bicycle and your eyes are going to light up. You almost feel like you're the one doing the work. And in that case, you only have to pedal really as hard as you want to. In many cases, you can do what some people refer to as ghost pedaling.

15:37And so you're pedaling and you're not really putting any pressure on the drivetrain, yet the motor is propelling you along. And so it's just kind of a switch that turns on the motor. That is still considered class one as long as it caps at 20 miles per hour and is limited to 750 watts. Now you might say, well, if you're not really doing anything with the pedals, if you're just kind of pretending to pedal and it can move forwards, then what's the problem with the throttle? What has happened recently that's made things kind of confusing is bicycles that bear no resemblance to a bicycle have become very popular. You have these big, heavy motorcycle-like devices with big fat tires. They put the pedals on them so they can be legally considered bicycles. And not only do most people not use those pedals, but it's actually very difficult to. I've demonstrated in some of my videos, your foot hits the kickstand, the seat is so wide that your legs kind of bow out and you can't actually pedal.

16:38The pedals are all but ornamental. Now that might seem benign. It might seem like, well, okay, they're there for legal purposes and it's limited to 20 miles per hour and it's limited to 750 watts. So they follow the same rules as the ones that look like bicycles. That's true. But the problem is we're getting very used to seeing vehicles that look like this out on the bikeway and out on the road. And we're starting to call that an e-bike. So when there's a high-profile accident or somebody loses their life on something that's not an e-bike, the headline says e-bike. A company can make a motorcycle that goes 50 miles an hour and it's 1500 watts and has two motors. They can just put cranks on it and a parent buys it, thinking it's a bicycle, thinking that you should have a bicycle helmet or no helmet at all. And I'm sure I've meant some words here and there and Matt could probably correct me

17:39on those. But that's the basic problem. Well, you know, these bike accidents, these e-bike accidents that we've seen headlines about are sometimes the impetus for new legislation around e-bikes and how they're regulated. And this is another very confusing piece of the puzzle here because e-bike regulation in this country is largely left up to individual states and even individual municipalities. So a bike that's street legal in one state might very well be banned in another. A rider might need insurance in one city while they could ride without insurance in a different one. And the restrictions on e-bikes from state to state really run the gamut. The mid concerns about the safety of e-bikes and e-scuters today, Governor J.B. Pritzker signing new rules into law. It is the first time safety standards for e-bikes and e-scuters are being established for the entire state. And the new law includes requiring riders of those devices that can travel over 28 miles per hour to have a driver's license and insurance.

18:42Tyler is clarifying its rules. The city is allowing class one e-bikes on park trails, but class two and three e-bikes, which have more motor power and throttle assist are not allowed. Village council recently approved the new restrictions, including a minimum age of 15 to use e-modal rides. Other rules include helmets for young riders and a speed of 15 miles per hour on sidewalks and pathways. Those are reports from WLS in Chicago, Illinois, KYTZ in Tyler, Texas, and WPTV in West Palm Beach, Florida. And you might notice that every location seems to take a slightly different approach. So as of July 2026, New Jersey now has some of the strictest e-bike regulations in the country. Starting upon how fast they go, certain e-bikes now require registration, licensing, and insurance. Riders have to be at least 15 years old. They may have to show proof of ownership of the e-bike.

19:43And the law has a lot of people up in arms about whether or not legislation is the best way to combat the safety risks of e-bikes. So Matt, more of people for bikes, I want to turn to you, particularly around this new New Jersey legislation, this new law requiring both registration and a license in order to operate all classes of e-bikes. And in some cases requiring insurance. What do you make of that? Well our federal system has 50 states that are allowed to experiment and adopt their own laws and policies. And of course they will receive the consequences of what they do. Our organization and New Jersey advocates, their state advocates, and local advocates really regard this New Jersey law as a mistake and something that we are even now working to roll back. So New Jersey had a series of fatal crashes involving teenage riders.

20:43Your worst case scenario for a parent is your child is killed, you know, riding their vehicle on a public street. Those vehicles were not electric bicycles. Those were electric motorcycles which are already illegal in New Jersey for a child to operate and they are already illegal to operate without registration, license, and insurance. So this law really was a crack down on low speed electric bicycles in trying to address a problem with a different type of vehicle. And Seth is exactly right. This confusion really has been caused by the manufacturers who feel that by adding pedals or by making it look like an electric bicycle, it's legal to operate. That simply is untrue. Anything that can go over 20 miles per hour when powered by the motor under federal law is considered a motor vehicle. That has to comply with federal motor vehicle safety standards. The importer has to be registered with the federal government and they have to certify

21:46that they're at their vehicle safe because it meets those standards. None of those things are happening. So we are seeing hundreds of thousands of what are essentially electric motor motorcycles being sold directly to consumers in some cases providing to children and leading to those increased numbers of emergency room visits and in some cases fatalities. This is really the issues with an e-moto-type device that is being confusingly sold to the public. Confusingly sold to the public. So Seth, why is it that you have people buying what are essentially e-motor cycles under the guise or thinking that they are buying an e-bike? Why is this so confusing? Well, I think what's confusing is the size and shape of the actual vehicle. So a very popular version of this is known as the Super 73. You've seen them. They have big headlights like a motorcycle.

22:47They have big fat tires like a motorcycle. They do not have adjustable bike seats. You can't actually raise the seat up, extend your leg and pedal it. It's one size fits all. They're very heavy and they have throttles. That is becoming very popular and it's legal. It's perfectly legal to take on a bikeway because it's a class II e-bike. It is limited to 20 miles per hour and it is limited to 750 watts. The problem is because those exist and because we are so used to seeing them, other manufacturers can sell the same thing and then advertise it's 1500 watts. It's 3000 watts. So you see that and you say, okay, I'm getting a better deal. But you don't read the fine print and understand that it's not an actual bicycle. In many cases, the fine prints not actually lead there, especially on a website like AliExpress, you're going to have a whole bunch of different fly-by-night companies selling these and they're labeled in all sorts of ways. Sometimes they say e-bike when it is not, in fact, an e-bike.

23:48Yeah, and Matt, to that point, if people are buying e-bikes more and more online as opposed to in-person, it seems like that would make it harder to keep tabs on exactly what people are buying regardless of where they live and whether they know that they're buying what they think they are. So our online retailer is part of the problem here and what do we do about that? How do we make sure that the marketing is more straightforward for the consumer? That is a great question and something that people for bikes is working on on a daily basis. There definitely is and should be more accountability. You can't sell somebody black paint and tell them it's driveway sealer. It's consumer fraud and we have laws in every state that protect consumers from fraudulent sellers that misrepresent products that they're selling. Additionally, some states are aware of this issue, especially with respect to products, motor vehicles being represented as electric bicycles

24:52and have passed specific laws calling out that behavior as consumer fraud attorney generals in these states have put these manufacturers on notice that they will be looking at their online sales and taking action if they're selling vehicles that are not legal to operate in the state. I think five or six states have these specific provisions and we expect to have more of them in the future in 2027. It's Ben Brock Johnson, director of digital audio at WBUR. You've probably been following our consistent coverage of the Lindsay Clancy case along with people around the country and around the world. Well, if you want to hear even more from WBUR's own veteran reporter Deborah Becker who has been covering the story for three years, we're putting deep dive podcast episodes and analysis about the Clancy case in a podcast feed.

25:53You can listen by searching beyond all repair wherever you get your podcasts. Our on point listeners here have a lot of opinions when it comes to eBikes. On point listener Joseph told us that he sees them as something of a metaphor for the direction society has gone in. We want to replace everything that was once hard and rewarding with what's easy. You see it with people using AI to write their essays or their emails. You see it with how texting replaces a phone call and social media replaces physical human interaction. I'm convinced there's a spiritual poverty to this. The pedal bicycle is the most beautiful, simple machine ever invented and to get in sync with your pedal strokes to convert that effort into speed, fill the wind in your face that the landscape rolls behind your own power is to live beauty. As a practical matter, an eBike can help people replace car trips for short commutes. The trouble is most people use them as a toy, not a tool. They will literally load their eBikes onto their car and drive to the public parkways that used to be peacefully enjoyed by pedestrians and cyclists.

27:00Excuse me, real cyclists. Seth, although I want to get a quick reaction from you on that, Joseph, you're talking about the wind in your hair, feeling the bike that you yourself are powering. What do you make of that as someone who rides a lot of analog bikes but also can appreciate an eBike? So I'm sympathetic to his view in some ways. I disagree with probably about half of it and agree with half of it. I agree that bicycling is a right of passage and a child riding a bike, that freedom. That's why I still ride a bike. It's this beautiful, simple machine. You can see how it works right on the outside. That's all emotional stuff. In reality, people who enjoy that still enjoy that. And people who are lazy, they don't get out and go on an eBike. They get in their car and they drive someplace and sit around. I don't know if it's a perfectly maps onto what's happening to society as a whole, but I do get his point. Hmm.

28:00I want to hear from another one of our listeners, because there's also just the appearance of bikes, whether they are what they say they are or not. And Stephen Jones in Tacoma Park, Maryland, really spoke to this. He makes the point that eBikes might be viewed differently than motorbikes, even in situations where they're doing fundamentally the same thing. My family has an eBike that has the seat on the rear for my child. Now, if 10 years ago I had suggested, hey everybody, I'm going to buy a motorbike and strap my two-year-old daughter on it and drive her around town. Everyone would say that I was a fool. But nowadays, make that motorbike electric, painted orange, and somehow everyone thinks it's a great idea. I'm still driving my child around at 25 miles an hour.

29:04Matt Moore, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. This our perception of eBikes and the fact that now we have these vehicles that have motors on them. And so we say, okay, it's legal, we can do it. Maybe we're using them for things that in a past time, or even just on a different day, or with a different lens might go, is that a good idea? There is definitely a place for the cargo bike, the kid hauler, as we call it. Widenly used in Europe, I live across from a great school here in Minneapolis, where I live. And we have lots of parents bringing their kids to the grade school via cargo bike. Or when they get older, they ride as a family to school. And it's great. At the same time, allowing a child to independently operate an electric motorcycle, that is a whole different thing. And this is akin to the mini-bike craze,

30:04you know, in the 60s and 70s when little gas-powered mini-bikes were super popular all of a sudden. And guess what? There were mounting crashes and fatalities, and those devices were banned. So I think we're kind of in a place where these E-Moto devices, again, which are motor vehicles, if they're used on public roads, are going to face increasing regulation, both in their sales, their sellers who are selling them, how they are advertised, and where they can be operated to the extent, you know, they're not already illegal. Hmm. Okay, I want to hear from another one of our listeners. This is Peter Biscup and Klamath Falls, Oregon, who called to tell us how in his view, e-bikes have become an essential part of our transportation ecosystem. I view e-bikes as an essential form of transportation for people that do not have good access to a car or to public transportation, which is the case in many small towns, like mine.

31:06I think that e-bikes should be more heavily regulated due to the speed that they are capable of. I think that for this regulation to come to fruition, it is unfortunately going to take some tragic event involving someone who is probably not even old enough to have a driver's license to get it onto the radar of public officials and law enforcement. So Seth Alvo, turning the conversation now to safety. Do you agree that speed is the ingredient of e-bikes that makes them potentially more dangerous? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. So we already have the class one, two, and three system, and if you're riding a class one, it's limited to 20. But as we've been saying today, a lot of them are sold and mislabeled and they end up going much faster. And I think the problem that I think why that happens is the confusion. So because it is now

32:10difficult to tell the difference between a bicycle, a moped, and a motorcycle because they are all starting to look the same, that is why we end up with devices that are not class one e-bikes, that are not low speed electric bicycles. And those are the ones that are generally causing the injuries. Now here, the viewer that called in, it seems to be pro-bicycle, and even he appears to be mixing up low speed electric bicycles with motorcycles, which just speaks to how confusing it actually is. Well, I hear you on one hand, but on the other 20 miles an hour, to me, is still pretty fast. And when I'm going 20 miles an hour on an analog bike, on a regular bike, I have powered that bike. I made it go 20 miles an hour. I am one with the bike and I am one with the bike at that speed. And I think what you have here is you have a bunch of people who can either go 20 miles an hour with pedaling or they got the class to e-bike. They can just go 20

33:12miles an hour without pedaling. And they are not, they don't have a relationship to that velocity. So the fatal crashes that we're hearing about, I don't know what percentage of those occurred on bikes that were not actually e-bikes, but might be more like e-motor cycles. But you can, you know, there are concussions, there are broken bones, all sorts of things can happen even just at 20 miles an hour that, as you've said, with no learning curve, that can present a real problem for people who are not comfortable on those bikes or not experienced on those bikes and the speeds that they can go. You bring up a really good point and that's why in Europe, pedalex are limited to 15.5 miles per hour and 250 watts actually. But it's also notable that in Europe, they don't have a lot of the same problems we do. First of all, it's a different place bicycling infrastructure in almost every European country is on the whole better than the United States. But also, it's very easy to tell the difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle in Europe. And you made

34:18the point before that somebody that can just go 20 miles per hour with a throttle has no relationship to that speed. They're not huffing and puffing, they're not pedaling faster and faster. And in many cases, in e-bike is the first kind of bicycle they've ridden and so they don't have experience building up the strength to actually get up to that speed. And that is a very real issue. But I think the fact that in Europe, they don't have bicycles with rottles. If you have a throttle, it becomes something else. It becomes very easy to tell a difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle and you just don't see them mixed up in the same places. You don't see them on bike ways. You don't see them around pedestrians and other bicycles that are going very different speeds. The United States has bigger roads. A lot of people are using their low-speed electric bicycles out on New York City streets. And in some cases, you might want to be able to go 20 miles per hour to get into traffic safely without somebody coming up behind you and swirving around you.

35:24And so I don't necessarily think that a 20 mile per hour limit is the whole problem. Well, I want to turn now to specifically focusing on kids because several of the recent headlines that deal with fatalities in the country have been kids on e-bikes. And there was a recent TikTok video that went viral from a doctor at MGH Cornelia Griggs saying, basically, if you wouldn't put your child on a motorcycle, don't put your kid on an e-bike. And so, Matt, I want to turn to you and just ask plainly, do kids need to be riding e-bikes at all? You know, as part of our model law, you know, we recommended that states not allow kids under the age of 16 to operate a class III electric bicycle that was, as been adopted in probably half of the states. That's sound policy. Here in Minnesota, a child needs to be 15 years

36:27old to operate any class of electric bicycle. We still have 12-year-olds riding electric motorcycles in the suburbs and, you know, a group rides right through our downtown last week. That's just unacceptable. You know, a study in California commissioned by the legislature found that 90% of what kids are riding to middle schools were actually electric motorcycles. So, this is really the problem. These two fast devices. And lastly, I have to disagree with Seth on Europe. They have a tremendous problem with fat bike. What he calls them fat bikes there, but they are actually emotes. They're imported illegally. The difference is that the governments are taking action at the border and they're taking action on the street even using dynamometers. They have seized, I think, 800 e-bikes in the UK and they destroy them. So, there is an enforcement element here when

37:36devices are being sold that are illegal to use or that are misrepresented to the public. So, well, I'm all fired up here and I'm devastated that we have to leave the conversation here because there's so much more to talk about, but I appreciate you both for getting it started with us and I know we will be talking more about e-bikes on shows to come. So, Matt Moore, Policy Council for People for Bikes, thank you so much for joining us. Oh, thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. And Seth Alvo of the YouTube channel, Berm Peak, which covers all things cycling. Seth, thank you. Thank you so much, Amory. And thanks to all the listeners who shared their strong opinions on e-bikes. We'll come back to this topic no doubt. I'm Amory Siewertzen. This is on point. This summer, something happened with an open AI test that's put the tech world on high alert. A swarm of agentic AI broke out of open AI, formed its own chat boards and attacked another company,

38:39and it happened multiple times. The agentic AI even talked about self-sacrifice in order to achieve its goals. Now, this isn't a story about AI consciousness. It's actually a story about some very human failures. That's on the next on point.