How She Finished 1L With Straight A’s (Ep. 51 with Madeline)

0:00Welcome to the Hey Future Learner podcast. I'm Ben Parker, full-time LSAT teacher and co-creator of Hey Future Learner.com, the world's most effective LSAT prop. I've taught thousands of students to break into the 160s and 170s using your reading first commonsense approach of the LSAT. Today I'm talking with Madeline. Madeline is another LSAT teacher. She doesn't do as much LSAT anymore because nowadays she's in law school, but she taught LSAT for several years full-time and we got to know each other and she's been on the pot of heat times. Anyway, she went to law school and she got straight-ass Kentucky law school and how is a great job opportunities. So we're just going to talk about how applicable the LSAT is, how she got her good grades, what that means, and now what she's seeing for the people that did not get good grades at a more regional law school. So hopefully you find that insightful given that all of you are likely making the decision of do you go to a higher rank school or do

1:03you alternatively go to a lower rank school for a full ride. And if you are like, well, Ben, I'm interested in going to a lower rank school for full price, I would tell you to get a higher LSAT score. And when you want to do that, you can check out everything at Hey Future Learner.com. We will get you set straight. So come check it out. What else do I have? Oh, and make sure you leave a review on the podcast. It's one of those things where I'll scream this into the void because no one does it. And realistically, it probably won't convince too many of you to do it, but it really does help. It takes legitimately half a second just to hit the like five stars button and it helps all our like algorithms and whatnot. So please do that. Anyway, let's go to over to Madeline. So yeah, Madeline is back once again. Welcome back Madeline. As we've alluded to many moons before and I just do a poor job of actually getting through all our LSAT stuff. You absolutely crushed law school, which I think is worthwhile, given that all our loyal, loyal listeners should be expecting you to go to law school and hopefully crush it. After all, why would you guys be planning on being average that silly? So anyways, Madeline, I guess in, I guess you

2:03want to take it away and say like, how law school went for you in your first semester? Yeah, sure. It's weird to talk about myself in that way. But yeah, first semester of law school did go well. I'm halfway through my second semester. So I was happy with my grades. They were very good. The first semester was challenging and I think what is frustrating about the way law school is designed. I'm sure those of you who are listening are probably familiar with this is that your first semester grades, you know, I would say for better for worse, but it's probably for worse, have a disproportionate impact on your outcomes, you know, not necessarily post law school, but for summer opportunities and things like that. I'm sure many of you are familiar with the way that timelines have maybe shifted for recruiting, especially if you are interested in, you know, corporate law, big law, so to speak. So those, that first semester is very, very important and the grades do matter

3:06a lot. And I think for those of you who are there, you know, taking the outside or maybe you've taken it and are getting ready to go to school or applying the cycle to start in the fall, think it's worth being intentional about, you know, preparing for that first semester, setting yourself up for success, what habits do you want to bring in with you? Because there's really not a ton of opportunity or time to recalibrate the semester will start really quickly, we'll go by quickly and then you'll have your exams, which are very important. But, and you know, obviously Ben and I like to tie it all back to the LSAT. I think setting up or creating a good study system for your LSAT prep, all of those skills that you develop with those tools will help you in law school. And I know we've talked about Ben and I've talked about this before on the podcast, but I think so much of what allowed me to be successful my first semester were all the habits and the skills I had had from the LSAT

4:08and being able to study effectively. I have never been more convinced about the importance of the LSAT as when I was a law student or in my first semester. I'm still a law student. I still have, you know, a few more semesters, but yeah, it's a, it's funny that you mentioned that because before law school, I, I told Mammal and I was like, there's like a, yeah, at least I think I said it was like a 10% chance that you just get there and you're like, this is not for me. But I think we're way well, pesa. Anyways, yeah, all very good points. I think the one thing that I definitely want to co-sign and I'll say meter and then Madeline will because that's just our natures. If you guys, if you guys can't figure out the LSAT, like law school's harder and pretending, there is a lot of, I'd say buzz that it's like, oh, like the LSAT's bullshit, you just get through it and then law school is all beautiful and sunshine and rainbows. I mean, we'll get into like why that's not true, especially with all have you do a brief explanation of the curve to everyone who is not familiar with how law school grades works. But like, the LSAT is no pressure of vote. So like, you guys can take it whenever you want. If you're not ready, that's fine. Like buy yourself more time, push it back. You don't have to go to law school this year. You can study for

5:12as long as you want. If it goes badly, you can retake it. And to put it lightly, that's not how law school finals work, right? No, it's one and done. You have your, you know, each exams three of hours, maybe four depending on the credits. And you take it and that's it. You don't know your grade for three weeks. It's stressful and you, you get the grade you got and it's curved. So only a certain amount of people can get A's. It's different at every school. My school has a B curve, essentially. So it means that the average has to be between a two, the average GPA has to be between 2.9 and 3.1 for the, all the classes, which means, you know, half the people are getting below a 3.0 GPA. That's just, that's just how it is. Only probably, I don't know what percentage of people get A's, but it's probably not more than in a given class, like 10 or 15%. And it doesn't, so it doesn't

6:15matter how well you do objectively, you could have a good exam. But if everyone else does better, you might get a B. And that's really normal. And I think for a lot of people, that's really hard, especially if you're coming straight from undergrad because you're probably used to getting straight A's just kind of on the merits. And it does not work that way. And you have to be strategic about, okay, I need to learn this material, but I also need to learn how to, you know, write a good exam and prepare the material through the lens of the exam and working on that strategy. And I think a lot of people just don't realize that until too late in the semester. And it's just a period. You know, I kind of went into school thinking, you know, I did great on the ASA. I know how to take a test. Yeah, exams aren't going to be fun, but like, they'll be fine. And, you know, it all was fine in the end. But the period itself was very, very challenging. It was, you know, the two week exam period, plus the couple weeks before, like the crunch time of studying. It was,

7:20it was, it was very difficult. It was probably one of the most difficult things I've done since the ASA. Or arguably, I would say it was harder than the ASA. But that was my experience. It might be different for other people. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. No, people are just wrong if they disagree. That's my take on things. Not with all things, but like, sometimes you have an obvious position. And people will take the opposite side. But that doesn't mean it's worth respect. Like people will say, my example is always like, you know, the earth is round. People say the earth is flat. And they will argue it until they're blue in the face. That doesn't mean they're right. They're still wrong. So people can say the all sets are in the law school. I just don't understand on what maybe in terms of like density in the English language. But you guys have some pretty, I'd say nasty cases from what I've read in terms of like unwinding the reading. Yeah, anytime, most of them are that bad. But anytime it's like, oh, core of the ex checker from like England and the 1700s. I'm like, okay, it's something that I will say, like, for example, this semester I spend a lot less time reading both in the sense it is faster to do. And also in the sense, I just don't do all of it. I can, it's a lot easier to discern what is actually

8:22going to be useful or relevant to the exam. And so I can just kind of be a little bit more intentional about it in that way, which is great. The first semester is really tough because you kind of just got to do it all. Everything is new. The cold calls are intimidating. Everything is a lot more comfortable now. And so you can kind of work smarter and hard. But no, I mean that exam season was tough. I think for me, it was really challenging was the stamina of it where, you know, you have four exams. And, you know, so you properly hard for this three hour exam and you give it your all. And then up, you got to do it again two days later. And then, oh, again, and again versus the LSAT, you know, you properly hard. And then you take it. And even if you retake it, it's not like you're retaking it three days later, right? You can kind of reset and regroup a little bit. There's none of that for exams in law school. Yeah. Well, you also have the certainty now, at least the semester that you didn't have last semester where you know that what you're doing counts and that it helps you get good scores. Whereas I think that I would crush law school if I did it. Not that I didn't interest in it. I just think that, you know,

9:22I tend to be pretty good at solving problems in front of me. And so I perceive I would do it, but I would also have that like voice on my shoulder of like, what if you're doing the wrong things? What if you're an idiot? Definitely. There was times where I just was like, okay, and I think things are going well, but like, or you know, I would have, you know, friends or family asked me, you know, after exams, like, how do you think you did? I'm like, I mean, I think I did okay, but like it also depends on how other people did. The curve could be unpredictable. There's just a lot of uncertainty and you just don't get any feedback. At least at my school, some schools do midterms. My typically doesn't. I didn't have any midterms. So my grade was pretty much exclusively the final. We have like participation, but everyone gets the participation. So it still comes down to the final for the curve. And yeah, you just don't really get that feedback. And it was hard to, you know, I just really didn't know what to expect until getting the grades back. And it kind of, you know, cuts both ways on the one hand. Yes, I, it's a confidence boost

10:23to having done well, but also I can't just settle or kind of rest on my laureate. I have to remind myself, okay, can't coast because of course there's going to be people, maybe aren't happy with their grades. Maybe have the potential to get good grades that maybe didn't, you know, understand the how to strategize for the exams and now do kick it into gear, you know. And so you're always thinking about that. I'm like, okay, I have to have to keep it up. But it's been a little harder to be motivated this semester. But I feel like everyone sort of feels the same way. So I'm like, okay, I'm not the only one slacking a little bit on their hands. Yeah, well, I'll speak well out of turn here. But my perception of loss with difficulty is a lot to do not with effort, but with, for lack of a better term, like based stats, or like if you're a precise thinker and a strong writer, even if you're not working say as hard as someone, like there's some people who are just not strong writers. And honestly, to most of you probably listening, because you all, we all have none included with our writing. Everyone thinks they're better writer than they are. At least that's what I find. In fact, I find it to be inversely correlated. The people

11:23that think they're writing is God's gift to writing tend to have the worst writing. It's like, oh my God, like it's your point. What are you saying? Anyway, so my perception is like to get to your grades, which, you know, we're all A's is going to be, you probably put in less hours and some of the people that bombed it. But they bombed it because, well, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they're just lazy goofballs. I mean, that's what we've learned about the LSAT. People don't get bad LSAT scores because they, because they're bad at it. They get bad LSAT scores. They don't do the work. Maybe loss was the same way. Anyway, my point is that I think the base skills that you have from just your early education, as well as probably honing them on the LSAT pays off. So like, I think if you're bad at the LSAT with that, it really, at least to my mind, should be like a right blog of like, hey, probably resolve this now. And not only do you get the score, which will save you money and get you into better schools, but also you are likely to sharpen up the skills that are needed in terms of precision and clarity that will help you get your ultimate grades. Because yeah, could you speak a little bit on how important those first semester grades are for like the rest of your future and career and the rest of your life? I mean, it's, it's important. I think it's, well, it's more important if you don't go,

12:26I would say to like a top 14 school in, I mean, I can't speak to that experience. And actually, for what I've heard, it's, it's getting, I think, more important at those schools because, you know, the, the, I think the job market shifting a little bit. There's just not as many, I think, associate positions in big law. The chatter I'm hearing, I don't know how active that is and someone listening, you know, maybe able to correct that. So, you know, the grades do matter and the top school is too. But I think when you're at a top school, you know, I think the grade distinguishing there is going to be like different tiers of prestigious job. We're paying, you know what I mean? It's, it's not like, oh, can you get a solid job or just not a job at all or, or like a, you know, kind of nominal job or whatever for lack of a better term. So, out of, you know, I'm kind of in an in between school where we're not, you know, we're not a lowering school, but we're not like a top rank school. We're like a pretty strong regional school. So, we do well in our specific like Kentucky Midwest market. But even, even so, I think,

13:30you know, I noticed this when I went through, we have OCI's at my school and, you know, people are getting offers for, you know, summer associate positions at local firms or regional firms, I should say. And, you know, for example, for OCI's, they each, OCI, I think, had like 21 slots, like they would interview like 21 people for, but ultimately after callbacks all of a sudden done, most of these firms are only giving one or two positions, you know, in in Lexington and the city I live in, you know, if people are going to be more open to going to other cities, there's more flexibility there. But there's kind of a steep cutoff I would say after that top, like 10 or 15 percent, you know, for, I think my classmates who are in the top, you know, 10, maybe 15 percent, I don't know if the jobs are handed to, you know, we see, there's still, obviously, all the applications, interviews, nothing is guaranteed, right? But after that percentage cutoff, there's a lot more hustle, I think, involved in order to get a job, an opportunity, especially one for one-house summer that pays. It's harder to get paying opportunities

14:35for one-house summer. A lot of people, at least again at a school, like the one I go to, a lot of people will be doing kind of unpaid government stuff, which is great experience, but I'm, I need to get paid. I got, I got summer camps to pay for. So, you know, I'm just not out of phase in my life where I'm just going to volunteer for two months for the sake of experience that does not hold any charm to me. But, yeah, so it's important because it really does dictate the trajectory of the opportunities. You get, at least for the first summer. Now, you know, could, let's say, someone maybe not have great grades and kind of get a comeback and raise up their GPA, you know, for the next summer, it's possible, but also bear in mind that person's going to have to compete against all the other people who already have good grades, right? And we are probably going to work to keep them. So, it's, it does kind of set this trajectory a little bit. But again, it's nothing

15:35in sevens or I still have to, you know, keep up my good grades and, you know, someone could have good grades the first semester and not, you know, maintain them and, you know, slide down, but I don't really think there's ultimately going to be that maturation in it. And I think what's frustrating to me or not to me, but I think a lot of my classmates didn't necessarily realize how impactful those first semester. And now their future is over. I'm kidding, it's a little hyperbolic, but also a little bit as true. Like if they had a vision of I'm going to make six figures as a lawyer off the get go, that that future is over for probably a good chunk of your classmates. Oh, yeah, 100%. And also kind of the perverse thing that I've noticed in, you know, amongst my classmates is, for example, I had my, I had my summer job. I had it locked in a month ago, literally actually exactly a month ago. And so, okay, I had to do all the interviews the first three weeks, but that's done. I've been, you know, I've been able to turn back and focus solely on school. Whereas there's, you know, tons of people who don't have, most people actually, I'd probably venture to say, don't have anything lined up in her, you know, doing all the applications,

16:38LinkedIn, just spending all this time, just, you know, having to go through that process. And that's time away from, you know, just another double click on that. Not only are they spending time looking for jobs, they're also probably paying for law school. The average person I can talk you, I think, according to our calculation, which is not perfect, but it's a pretty good estimate, is paying about, I think, 40K. And you're paying zero to my understanding. In fact, I think you're a little bit net positive with your stipend and everything. So it really is like, once you guys get to law school, it truly is the rich guy richer in terms of like, I don't think maybe merit is the right word. But the people who have scholarship are likely to have the better grades in GPAs, which means they're more likely to have the underlying skills. So not only are you paying less, you have the paying summer position. Well, I guess the point that I always really want to hit on with folks is that like, like the consequences are very real in this game. And a lot of people ignore them and don't take things seriously. But like, it will come to you. You will not, if you don't take the LSAT seriously, likely not have the same job opportunities in the end. And I just want to hit

17:44on kind of the employment out of Kentucky. And this is, you know, on a three year lagging indicator because it's the 2024 class. And you're going to be, what are you, the class of like 2028 for law school? That's crazy. That feels like so far away. But yeah, it's like a good chunk of people go to various regional firms, like seven-ish percent go to like true big laws and the 500 plus attorneys. Another roughly 10 percent are like 100 to 500. It's like probably regional firms. Another 6 percent go to federal clerkships. And then, um, but if you add those all up and exclude everything else because everything else, like really little firms, which I imagine those are a lot of not super high paying, like someone does like divorce law and they get some associate to take the workload off, pay you a little bit, public interest, etc. If you add up all the on good buckets, it's like about 20 percent of the class, maybe 25 if we're generous. Um, and that's not say that everyone else is like, boom, like do not pass go your life is over, but you're probably starting in like the mid five figures, hoping to work your way up, which given to debt, if you're paying sticker, which some of your, I mean, actually only 2 percent of Kentucky pays sticker. But a lot of

18:45them pay, like most people get like a less than full tuition or less than half tuition scholarship, which is like 6K, I can tuck you or like 10K. They're paying like 40K a year plus living expenses. It's pretty easy to be in like 150K that making 70K, which it's just, it holds a blow as my mind when you look at that. Um, anyway, well that's all it's fun. I just, I don't try to be a Debbie downer for everyone, but I really do, like you guys need to understand the game you're playing, and it can work out well. Madeline's getting a debt free JD. She has all the opportunities open to her because she did well. Um, and despite her saying like she has to keep it up, I would bet my house that you do just fine in the rest of law school, like I'm not worried about you. Um, so, you know, and I mean, and just to kind of underscore, like I think how important the first semester is. I mean, like, okay, if my ranking drops a little bit, you know, I'm not kind of strafically, but like, you know, even just a little bit marginally, I don't like that it too, but like is it going to make a material difference? Probably not at this point, right? I mean, I don't know. We'll see, but hopefully we won't see how that happened. Like, again, sort of the

19:52trajectory is sort of set a little bit for, or a lot for most people. Again, there might be some slight fluctuations and, um, you know, things, you know, someone can hustle, someone can change, things, things can change, right? But it's just a lot harder after the first semester, I think. Yeah, so I am curious because people at certain schools have told me that they hear the, like, look at the email from like the career services office saying, like, we have someone so coming in, you apply, if you're like, in an x percent of the class, are they telling you that I can talk you? Like, are those in the emails? Like, do you know the cutoffs that various firms or judges are using? So for our OCI's, we have this platform, or we don't have, it's this platform called simplicity. I think a lot of schools use it. It's the worst. It's like Windows 95, like, relic. Um, it's just terrible UI. Um, but we, you know, basically, the opportunities come through, at least for like OCI's, maybe for other things too. Like some, I guess some firms will do like resume collections and stuff, but for OCI's, you submit your bid for the OCI for the firms

20:54that you want to. And for all the information for the firms, they have basically like, um, some will say like top 10% like preferred, you know, the meaning like, basically if you're not like, we're not going to go with it. Some will say required. And I'm sure someone might be out and just submit it anyway, you know, let them, let them be the one to reject them, you know, but yeah, they'll, they'll say it. And the, the career people won't directly say it, but it's in the bid listing in simplicity. Okay, that's good to know. Um, yeah, I think the point that I just, everyone needs to get take away from this is that like, you just need to be aware that this is not a everyone win sort of game. It's some people win and it's not a bad career if you are one of the winners. But if you expect to just like do mediocre on the L side, do mediocre in law school, mediocre in terms of your outcome is, I would say an understatement. I think it's going to be a pretty bad outcome in terms of your style, relative to what you're making. But, you know, that's your guys' judgment to make. Um, so yeah, what else do we have? I had a few, always write my thoughts. Um, what, what else do we have? So yeah, just to go back to the LSAT,

21:55what specifically do you think was applicable from the LSAT to success in law school? Um, oops, sorry, my chair's like you're good. A couple things. I think both in terms of the, like the actual exam skills, but then also the study skills. So I'll talk about the exam skills for us. I think honestly, just the reading skills, the closed reading skills that get really, ideally get honed during the LSAT because some people they don't, but the ability to just quickly process dense, you know, flowery text is really crucial. You know, you're reading a lot of, you read a lot in law school. My eyesight's like deteriorated over the past like six months. Um, but yeah, you're just reading a lot of case law, you're reading your textbooks, it's dense, it's off and dry. Um, and so learning how to be able to read it closely, read it effectively, kind of gaslight yourself into finding it interesting when it's not, I think that skill is important too. Um, but then also just the discipline of being able to

22:55show up every day and do it. There's definitely, I think especially, you know, in the beginning, it's all excited. Everyone has their rose color glasses. Yeah, for like week one and week two, and then we all be so excited. I'm someone who kind of was a little bit more like, okay, but you know, I kind of got into, I was like, ooh, you know, a new chapter in my life, you know, it's easy to romanticize it at the beginning, but that wears off like fairly quickly. It becomes a grind pretty quickly. And there's days that are just, you don't want to do it, you don't want to do the reading or you don't want to even go to class, like, right? Honestly, I'm kind of at a slump like that right now where we're not really quite into exam season yet. So yeah, we're not, we're not even quote, I mean, we still have probably probably three or four weeks is when I'll start to like be like, okay, now's the time. Um, but I'm, I had a really, really busy January and February with, you know, job recruiting, um, appellate brief stuff, you know, just classed all this, all this stuff going on with a huge snowstorm as well, which didn't, you know, help with the chaos.

23:56And I felt like things were really, really busy. And so right now they're not, which is great, but then I'm also just not like, ooh, let me not go to class, you know, I just, I feel the laziness creeping in a little bit. But I'm like, no, I have to, you know, I still need to at least keep up in some capacity, you know, even if I'm not going to go all out and, and conserve some energy, just, you know, still, it's that consistency, right? Like even when you're studying for the LSAT, there might be days that you're just really like, oh, it's not the day and I don't have, you know, I can't give it two sections a day or like whatever. Okay, maybe I'm going to do 10 questions, 15 questions. Like let me just get something in and just stay consistent with it and, and keep up with it. I think that is really, really crucial. Basically, the ability to like do the boring work when you don't want to. That's, yeah. Well, there's a lot of that in law school. There's a lot of that in practicing law. You're a paid to do the annoying boring work that no one wants to do. That's what lawyers do. Mostly. That's just life. Like you guys, you're going to have to

24:57do the things you don't want to or that like aren't fun. Like not everything's going to be like watching Netflix or scrolling TikTok. You're going to have to like be a big boy or big girl and do the things you don't want to. And like we were talked about this in terms of like generational stuff because Madeline, we're not old. But we might be to some of you listeners because I'm 26 and I won't ask you hold your Arbit Madeline's a couple of years older than I am. I'm 30. I'm 30. So like a dinosaur base. Like we're about to end up the last millennium, which is I just made the cut off. I was November of 99. Anyway, the point is is that like you kiddos, I'm not going to be old man yells at cloud. Like you guys, some of you are so soft and you really actually just study. Like it's not that hard to do an hour of LSAT prep. Like when I was thinking about Madeline, I was like, Oh, like if you ever have an erupt, I do 10 or 15 questions. I was thinking if I could just get most of my kids to do 10 or 15 questions a day, that would be a huge step in the right direction, which should not be the case. Like I should not be like an improvement. But for most people, that would be a positive improvement, not a negative improvement. So hopefully you take this in like a, you know, kind of grow up by or alternatively, you can realize how unserious most of your

25:58competition is. Like when I see you listening, you just go like, it's not that hard to get a good LSAT tour. You just have to do it. I mean, I'd say it's not hard because maybe that's not the wrong word. But the point is, is that like, it's a pretty simple formula. If over the next six months, you decide you're going to do three thousand LSAT questions and review them in depth, you're not going to end up with a low score. It's not possible. So well, unless you take that little too literally, you know, like I'm just going to crank through three thousand questions and not even like think about them. Yeah, I would just point like, yeah, you want to prove. But if you're like earnestly doing them in trying on each one and reviewing mistakes, you're going to just make effort. Yeah. Yeah, the aesthetic going to the coffee shop, making your take talk, day in the life, improves your points. Anyway, well, I think that's all very insightful. I guess if you had to give actual law school advice, like when people get to campus on the fall or in the fall, what would you advise they do to maximize their grades from your experience? Yes, it's, I mean, don't ignore the reality of the exam. I think, you know, in the beginning,

26:58all you have to do really the first month is like do the readings in the syllabus, get used to what it's like, you know, pay attention in class. But once you get used to that after the first month or so, you know, don't, don't forget that the exam is how you're graded, right? It doesn't matter how well you answer a call call that you don't get graded on that. And honestly, whatever you ask is probably not going to really like appear in the exam in any meaningful way. So just don't ignore that. I think obviously go to class, you kind of have to. I mean, attendance is pretty strict in law school. It's not like undergrad or you can just skip, you know, there's like ABA requirements of attendance. So that's not, you know, really an issue for people. But make sure you're, you know, paying attention to your professor. If your professor ever talks about the exam, that's what you need to pay attention to. If they ever mention like, I really like this for the exam, or I test this a lot on the exam, pay attention to that because they, the professors are not creative. They're not switching up their exams very often if ever, really.

28:01So if they say they really like something, you know, my toward professor, she said multiple times, she's like, I love government immunity for duty and negligence. And we have a whole portion of our essay that was all about governmental immunity for duty and negligence. Like, but that wasn't a surprise. And it's something we're surprised when this comes up. Or like, you know, sometimes, I study mostly by myself, but sometimes I kind of just be with people or around people. And sometimes people would say certain things. I'm like, the professor's talking about this multiple times. Like, I'm like, almost like, how do you not know? But, you know, it's okay that, you know, everyone's different. The other thing too, as exams do start to get closer, do not just, just like the else out, right? It's easy to get bogged out and like fake studying, make sure you're actually doing practice questions, practice essays, write out the essays. Do not just memorize the law or the doctrine. That's not going to be enough. You have to practice the application of it. That is the key. And a lot of people hear this, but they just don't do it

29:04because it's not fun. It sucks. I hated doing my practice essays, studying for the exams. It is painful, but that is really what makes the difference. Something I always see people do when they study. And everyone's different, but I just cannot see how this is effective. People love what's called whiteboarding, where they just write out. Oh, I know you're talking about that. And you see this all the time and people will be fiends for the whiteboards. And I'm like, guys, I've never once written something on the whiteboard. And like, I just do not see how it's effective. Maybe if the exams close note and you have to memorize and you have bad recallability, it can help from that standpoint, but you still have to practice the application. Like, just writing out over and over the elements of that, like, I don't know. I'm just like, if it works for people great, it just, I've never done it. I'll get in there. Because like, one of the things I hate in this world is agree to disagree. Some things are not unknown. Like, we've done a lot of science or a lot of studies on learning science and what works and what doesn't. And some of these things, people may do them, but it doesn't mean there's any credibility behind them. It's like your mom who thinks the way you lose weight is by like eating almonds.

30:07It's like, she might think that. That doesn't mean her position is correct. Like, it's, anyway, but yeah, so just do a few quick book plugs. Make it stick. You should all read. It's about the artist's accessible learning. It's fantastic. It'll also like point to what I would say is like the aesthetic learning people like do a lot of stuff that they find to be useful and is not, like, for example, the LSAT example, this is question types. People love their question types. It like does not matter drilling 30 necessary assumption questions back to back. It doesn't really help you because you have to learn to recognize it in the moment. And further, LSAT questions are the same skill, which is what can be deduced from premises. Which conclusions are invalid around must be true questions, which conclusions could you draw? It's like actually crazy how it's literally one skill, but it's been twisted into like 14, like there's one instrument account who keeps posting how there's 14 different LSAT questions. It's like, which is true, but it's misleading because the implication is that that's how you get better is to like learn the differences. Anyway, I'm hydrochloric with like learning science. But you guys really should learn how to learn because it's not based on the person. It is the human brain works in certain ways. And there's very small variations, but the idea of

31:09just repeating things and expecting that to like searing to your brain is not how it works. You have to apply and try things. And so this practices, I haven't done law school, but that seems incredibly relevant. And it was like, you have to do the skill and not just doing the skill, you figure out what you do wrong and probably just get more comfortable with it too. I think that's honestly the biggest thing is like, yeah, it's just even if the practice ones are kind of rough, which they are. I'm like, it's just doing it. It's the fact that when it comes, because also the timing is really difficult in school exams. So just not losing time thinking about, okay, how do I want to go about that? Like, you just go on basically autopilot and then, oh, I have a new fact set. So let me just apply the facts here. It's going to, you know, all the dark-triangle classes, it's the same material. Like, there's only so many things I can ask about. So like, if you, you know, towards exams, you're going to have an essay on negligence, like, you know, maybe intention towards. So like, it's the same concept. Just practice applying it to different fact patterns. Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's tricky, because it's funny. Like, I imagine

32:09there's a good amount of people that have literally never done a practice exam going into the actual final. They're just like, this is game day. I've studied, I know a lot of the rules, but like, and I will say this is something that was a little bit challenging for me is that, for example, I'm used to the LSAT where there's like, you know, dozens of practice tests that are exactly the actual tests. A lot of, at least at my law school, a lot of professors like gatekeep their exams, because they reuse them, right? And so they'll give out a little bit of practice material, like one essay or like, you know, three multiple, like, it's very limited because they are, I said they're lazy. I, I found out I would do the same thing. But they just don't want to like run through the material, right? And so that is a little bit harder because, you know, you want to, you kind of will hear the advice, like, oh, learn what your professor wants and what they like to test on and stuff, which the best thing to do that is to use their practice materials. But a lot of students is not that much of it. And so I think sometimes people take this advice too literally of like, just adhering to the professor stuff. Like, go seek supplemental stuff. I use a lot of

33:12supplemental resources, like, even like, kind of bar prep stuff. That's just like, you know, yes, maybe I'm obviously going to write it in the way that my professor wants. And even if it's not maybe emphasizing the exact same issues, they might really like, again, the doctrine is the same across the board, right? It's like, like, in a context of them, you're going to have something you're like, offer formation. Like, there's only so many ways I can look like. So I think, I think that's something I, at first was like, oh, I have to just do exactly what my professor says. But I realized it's like, no, I need to like master the doctrine. And then, yeah, then I can input the idiosyncrasies that the professor is into it. And so, you know, a lot of schools, like, my school has a whole library of supplemental resources. And I was all up in it during exams. And I never saw anyone around in those books. And it was a great word for me. Like, there's so many practice questions. And even like, short answers and different things that just get you to like, write it out and like, have to produce an output. Yeah, that makes total sense. Well, it's so funny because like so much of this is

34:15LSAT applicable because like, there's so many luxuries that you guys have on the LSAT, which is like, there are 59 LSATs. And you really can't run out of them because I've told Madeline this. And many of you probably know this from class or other points, but I'm going to film an explanation to every single LSAT question. I do a lot of LSAT. Like, it's honestly seconding, how much I do. And I started this about a year ago. And I'm not done because of how long it takes to actually do every single question. And it's just like, then when people told me I've said in two months, I've done every question. I'm like, yeah, but you must have skimmed the surface because I'm not spending 20 minutes on a question. I was finding three minutes on a question. And it still takes over a year to do them all because of how much is required. And so, anyway, you guys have the luxury of having practiced stuff for the LSAT. So I would use it because it doesn't all stay that way. Yeah, that's that I was kind of the biggest adjustment. I was like, oh, I have to be a lot more. There's a constant calibration through exam season. I think another, and this is actually a really important skill from the LSAT that transfers is the kind of self-awareness, the ability to like a self-reflect or be honest with yourself about what you actually

35:21get versus don't get. Because I think in the LSAT, it's very easy to like gaslight yourself into thinking you understand something that you've read when you don't. And whatever, you know, you practice that you have all those questions you figured out. But I think it's even more pronounced when you're studying for law school finals because you know, you might think you get something you're understanding something. But it's you don't really get that feedback. And you have to be a lot more discerning in terms of like, do I actually understand this? Do I not? You have to be on top of your weak spots. Because otherwise, like no one's going to point them out for you. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, I did have one LSAT question that a kid's, well, not really, it's a job question. But I think it'd be interesting just to like touch on given how much we've talked about like employment and whatnot. So this kid said, good afternoon. I hope you're doing well, which I haven't touched on this in a while, but like you guys don't have to do that in your emails. You can just like say what's up. You don't have to be like, hey, I hope you're well. I imagine

36:23you guys don't wish me ill will. I mean, maybe I shouldn't say that. I've seen the podcast for me, especially most of you don't wish me ill. Well, anyway, they continue. I've been kind of worried about law school debt recently as applications approach, assuming a 4.02 GPA with a let's say 172 LSAT. And a quick note, I know this kid, these are not unrealistic numbers. He has above a 4.0 currently in engineering for what it's worth. And he's like PT like the mid 160s, but he should keep growing. Anyway, he continues. I feel like it's either a full ride at a no offense to the amount of it mid school or big wall is locked out of or it's a very solid T 14 with big law for even the median student, but likely minimal scholarship. He continues. Biggest plan is just make a lot of money. So if you debt as attracting from that, which feels counterintuitive yet perhaps a necessary evil, do you have any thoughts on it? So I guess we'll just throw this to you as someone who's at a mid school without debt. Do you have any initial thoughts on this person? Kind of hard to have one answer, but I mean, it's hard. I'm definitely biased because I'm someone

37:24who is successfully doing that and who is in a position. If I want to make a lot of school, just to clarify. No, I want sort of school just to go. I'm kidding, but you know, for me, because it's worked out again, because of those initial grades, I'm in a position where I'm not going to be pressed to it's not going to be difficult for me to make a lot of money if I want to. Now, and I mean to fair, I mean, if I was really aggressive about it and wanted to go for like proper big law, I, you know, it might work out. I don't know. I just don't want to do that. So I don't know. But like the salary I would make out of from here is still really solid, consider it relative to no debt and no insane cost of living and you know, tax rate or whatever in New York, I feel like it probably ends up being to save. So I would lean more towards the

38:29the full ride option. I think it's worth it. And I think maybe in a position to get a full ride at a better school than I go to or maybe not for me, but like, it's not either or it's not pay 80k for Harvard or go to like all Western. There's a lot in between. Yeah, you could maybe get like, you know, a more highly ranked, but like strong regional school than my school to either full ride or close to it. Maybe you're only going to have to pay like 10k a year or 5k a year. Yeah, I mean, I feel a few random schools. Taxes gives 10% on the class of full ride. Yeah, that's a school where like it's a very strong employment. Vanderbilt gives 5% on full and you don't need a full ride because I think it's not like you pay zero or you pay 80k. There's a lot in between. UCLA gives 9% on the class of full ride. And you're 4.0 to an engineering. You're going to go to good LSAT or like, you're not, you shouldn't apply so you go to good LSAT for the personal listening. I'm probably a little bit more debt tolerant, but also realistically, let's say you do go to like UT or NYU and you're like in the middle of your class. Are your job opportunities that different from the person who's at the top of their class at a lower rank

39:31school? Like they're probably not because you're a mid kid. Like, you know, instead of being out of a mid school, you're not a mid graduate. And that also has Scott. So it's a very personal decision because it comes down to debt tolerance. But I'd say why not both? Like why not try to go to Cornell for like 30k off? So like you're still paying, but you still have the job opportunities for me. Yeah, I think it's worth like, open the options or open the doors up and kind of see. And I think, also, I think something to consider is, you know, how flexible like are you, do you want the luxury of being able to be anywhere in the country? That's where a top school is going to give you the advantage. You're just going to have to hustle more, be more strategic or network more. If you want to go outside the region of where your lower rank school is. Well, and reference, I know the state of this person said, and I'll share it because I don't think a state will dox in there in North Carolina, which has a good chunk of schools. I will note they have some of the most over ranked schools in country. Like North Carolina's ranked very highly. Their employment's actually pretty weak compared to like their ranking. So I'd be careful to go to North, like I actually don't think

40:31they're that different from like, well, actually, you know, it is like 25% of the class goes to big lot. But the point is that's still not like when you're ranked 18, 25% is not very good compared to like what the peer schools are doing. But Wake Forest, since 25% and Wake Forest, the school where the mediums are 166 and 379. Like that's a school where you are going to be a overqualified candidate and they give 4% of the class a full ride. They also give another 54% over half off. So it's that's a school where you could very well also be paying like 20k a year. And maybe that's worth it because it gives you a better job opportunity. I think what it comes down to with people like this is it's about tolerance. Like if you know, like I want to go to big law and I will like not be able live with myself. If I don't get big law and my life is over, then yeah, I probably would take the debt and go to like a higher ranked school where it's more likely. I do also think like if you're going to get into Cornell, I think you're also the kind of person you can probably crush it, or at least be in the top 30% at a lower ranked school. No, that is not a guarantee, of course. You could get there and then get beat by people lower LSATs and GPS. But on average, you have shown

41:32that you are better at school and the critical thinking deals are required. And they are, which is not, it doesn't map one to one onto law school grades, but it does map on the law school grades. So you are likely to be higher in your class and then have the kind of opportunities that Madeline does out of like Kentucky. So I think the big is make sure. And it doesn't sound like this person, it sounds like this person realistically understands that the demands of big law. But I think what I sometimes notice is maybe have this like false idea of what it's like. But then they have the golden handcuffs basically where they're like, well, I actually don't want to do this. They realized it like six months in. But I have, you know, a mountain of debt to pay off. And this is really the only realistic way to do it for the next, you know, three to five years. Yeah, and it's not like you have like not to say you guys are like not terribly useful. But like you guys don't have a broad set of skills. You guys are warriors. It's not even like exit and be some like marketing executive or like some like business development. It's like you have to be a lawyer and outside of big while your lawyer skills don't not terribly useful. And you don't get those in-house exit opportunities until a couple years into where you're useful. So you are, I mean, this kid is,

42:34I think he's going to be a KJD. He's younger. He's smart. It was funny when you mentioned like, you know, he's, he probably knows what he's getting himself into. I don't know. I feel like no windows are getting themselves into. But I think he's taller. It's not like he got turned he quits and has a mental breakdown. Especially if he graduates when he's what, like 25. I mean, if there's any phase in your life to suck it up with the golden handcuffs for big wall for three years, it's probably when you're in your mid 20s, you know? Yeah, and then you're out of 20. I'll do that too. Yeah. And the other thing is like, I don't want to go back to the 4.02 in engineering. But I think the work ethic demonstrated by that. I'm a lot less concerned about someone who's a 4.02 in engineering and the hours they can tolerate than someone who's a 4. Because I was a polyside. I'll say like our class are easy guys. You guys need to stop bitching about them and pretending as the same as STEM. It is not. I wrote three essays a semester per class. Each one took maybe five to six hours and you get your A. All you have to do is show up, smile, be nice. Don't obviously be shopping on the little lemon in the back. And if you do that, you get your grade. It's so simple. I was supposed to be like, please look at the homework problem sets that these engineering kids do and tell me it's even on par with what we do. Because it's not.

43:34And I'll hand out, I'll admit it. But I personally get irritated by the other humanities kids pretending it's as hard. So it's not. Anyway, it is different. Are there kids that do engineering that can't write a sentence? Like sure. That's a thing. But that doesn't mean that they're equivalent. Anyway, well, I think this person has a lot to noodle on. But the other advice I gave them is apply broadly. Because you don't know who's going to offer you. Maybe Vanderbilt decides they love you and you get a full right. Because at that point, it's such an easy decision. Just go to Vanderbilt at that point. If you have a full wrap. They get one, probably not. Realistically, because that is not easy to get. But they could. And that's the point. It's like cast that wide net, see who bites. Yeah. And I think, you know, I was again, like try to open those doors. And as you, though, you know, as they visit schools or figure out, as they get closer to making their decision, they'll get more information. They'll talk to people. They'll kind of get a little bit of a network of, you know, understanding people's outcomes. And I think that all that context, they think will help too to make this. Well, also, just to give a little bit of, because people are turning over so

44:35funny on this. But just ahead of everyone, like, Madeline got into multiple T14s. She chose. So you go to Kentucky. So like, she's not. Well, I mean, you are at a quote unquote mid school, which I was saying that tongue and cheek. It's a joke. But, but also like, anyway, it's, I don't send it really. I mean, it was, it wasn't like a, you know, like, I, it wasn't that I knew from the jump. That was what I was going to do. Like, it was a very real decision that I really evaluated to the fullest extent. And, you know, I visited one of the T14s I got into. I went to a minute students, you know, I visited here. I really tried to get all the information possible so that I could make the most informed decision. And of course, it will make the most sense for me personally and, you know, my family and all that too. Yeah, exactly. That makes total sense. Um, yeah, because like, I do remember talking to you about a year ago, nowadays, just really, I mean, we didn't talk super in depth, but just like, what are you thinking? Because you had really, like, prestigious offers that are honestly hard to, like, turn your nose up at because it's like, man, you don't say no to these schools. But if it doesn't make sense with your life, you really should. And anyway, um, I mean, if I, here's the, if I was in the exact same position with the

45:40exact same opportunities, but at age 22, no family, I probably would be at a different school. Right now. Yeah, it's also like, it's not that there's not a trait. Like, for, for you, I'd say the tradeoff ended up being pretty negligent. And that, like, you have basically the same job offer, but you didn't know that you didn't like we talked about. You didn't know what your grades would be. Um, I mean, the thing is you do have a guaranteed cost to going to a higher school, which is the money expended. Unless you somehow get a scholarship to them, which they're not non-existent, but they are incredibly fleeting. It's very difficult to get a substantial scholarship because these schools, they don't have to. They know that they have the benefits of the heart, which occasionally, though, you do talk to someone who wants to, like, save the turtles, and they want to go to, which also makes me wonder, like, if you're saving the turtles, you know, the turtles don't have a lot of money. They're not like JP Morgan, where they can't like pay you. So we love the turtles, but I would not be putting yourself in a lot of debt if that's your ideal, like client. Um, anyway, do you have time to crank through a personal statement real quick, and then call it up? Yeah. But I'll share this for you. It's not going to be on screen for the people. So this has the person's name in it. Um, but none of you are going to see it. You know, dirty, dirty listeners. So, um, it's relatively. All right. So as always, I always want to set the

46:45stage with what I think a personal statement is for. Um, there's not a right way to do it. I think there are wrong ways, but what I want to be left with is I want this person at my law school. They're going to succeed, and they're going to be a positive contributor to the community. Like, that's kind of what the flavor I want myself left with. I find this is in contrast with a lot of people, right? Which is more so like talking about their goals for law school or their dreams. And all of which is fine in so far as it can connect to why they're a positive contributor and why they'll kick us. But often it's just like, I really want to be a lawyer. Please let me in. And I find those to be unconvincing because I don't care about you. I care about me. And if you are going to be a good contributor to my school, because I don't care about you, I have a bunch of people to pick from. So anyway, that's the, I haven't read this one yet, but that's I find most in the 10 of us up where they're really focused on the story as opposed to the advocacy. So anyways, we'll just get into it and start with our first sentence, which is our most important sentence. And it says, as a child, I did not want to be a lawyer, Madeline analysis. Is that a reason to admit someone to law school? No. Yeah. So like, I mean, there's more to say about it. But in front of

47:51it, it's not a reason not to admit you to law school. But new, I mean, it's definitely, I guess you could argue. If it was an LSAT question, I'd largely argue it's irrelevant. But if anything, it's a weakener because it's going and saying like, this person, to be fair, I don't actually care what your childhood occupational goals were. They tend not to be terribly correlated to like your future. But it's not a reason to admit you. And this is like your best sentence. Like, I want you to pull me in and say, hey, like read the rest of this. I need this person to come in. Honestly, I feel fine. I just like moving on to the next statement, which I know is hyperbolic or not hyperbolic. I know it's a very quick judgment on making it after legitimately like eight words. But I feel okay, moving on to the next statement after this. And we don't want that. So I tend to be pretty harsh on this. But even Madeline, the nice person on the podcast has endorsed that there's no reason to admit you to law school wants to and send. One thing I will say though, especially if the writer does, I don't know, listen to this is I do personally like the brevity of the sentence. Like that's fair. We don't want like a long-winded, you know, I don't know. Like, I'm trying to think of some sort of

48:53author that writes her just like, you know, you want to be you want to get to the point you want to draw the reader in. So don't drag out that for a sentence. So the brevity here is good. But it's just actual like content. And that is a fair point because there are like the LSAT reading comp sentences that are like 50 words and you have to unwind them. There's none of that. And that's strong because like I always give people a hard cap of 25 words. Obviously we have more to go here. But from scanning on, it looks like they do do a pretty good job of keeping sentences tight. But we have a lot to get through. We're one sentence. They continue. Many of my childhood memories were set against the backdrop of my parents heated battles over child support and custody or arrangements. So yeah, I mean, it's background info. Your parents got divorced, I guess, which is sad. But once again, Madeline analysis. Is that a reason to admit our writer to law school? No, I was I'm like, I am personally intrigued where the story is going. But that's just for my own sake as like a random reader, not as like a law school admissions reader. Yeah. And this is like

49:57the Y law. This is the typical what I tend to rail against members of the problem. This is someone who's probably trying to answer why they don't want to go law school. In fact, it almost fears feels different answering that prompt, which is like, I didn't want to be a lawyer, but maybe I went through like divorce court and I learned that it matters. But yeah, my point is just that like that's cool and all. But I don't want to know that you want to be a lawyer. You're applying to law school. It's a pretty safe assumption that you want to be a lawyer. My question is why should I as the admissions dean and the gatekeeper of my law school accept you into my law school because it's a privilege for you to attend. And that's just like you're not advocating for yourself. You're giving like a fun little back. And to be fair with two senses and I know I'm being like very nitpicking on these. But this is short document folks. You have two pages. So he should really be very conscious about all the words that you use. I will say shout out to the writer for using the plural possessive apostrophe correctly. That is a dying art form that I cannot, that nothing irritates me more than a wrong apostrophe use, which is just everywhere I feel like. So.

51:00Yeah. Well, are you going to be the good cop? And I'm kidding. But I will be. Well, I mean, I was like, it seems like they, I mean, we're two sentences in, but it seems like they have a solid grammar. Also note, like for all my nitpicking this, this is actually above average. Like to what mad on speaking. Yeah. Yeah. Like the writing style matters more than you guys realize because a lot of people butcher the writing of this person doesn't butcher the writing. They're not the facts I would, but they're not bad facts. You're not saying that like I went, like I committed a crime, and that's why I want to do a law school. Like you're not hurting yourself. You're just not advocating and your writing is fine. So like realistically, this person's at one union. I'm probably accepting them because like it's good enough. And yeah. Well, I will say and then for those of you listening, you know, when you're in law school, what are you obviously you do, you're writing assignments, but also beyond, you know, a lot of the advice I get is the quality and the craft of your writing, like that's your credibility with like the judge, let's say, you know, and if you're writing sloppy or, you know, bad, it doesn't matter how great the substance is. They're not going to take it seriously. So obviously in, you know, an essay like this, the content's really important

52:04because that's what's going to make you stand out and be memorable and be attractive. But you you also have to create the credibility with the actual writing and, you know, it being polished and proofread and, you know, no typos, no grammar errors, no formatting errors. That's really important. If they give you font instructions, like follow the instructions, like all of that is really important. I arguably sometimes just as important as the content of it. It's although we, we definitely got to read faster because we're, we've got to read. Anyway, so they say, I dreaded long car rides with my dad because he was long-windedly compliant about negative developments in their case. We'll read on more than that, but overall, it's still not a reason to make it all. Like it's cool. I guess your dad's a complainer, which I guess probably happens in divorce, but also, like I don't see how it's relevant. They continue. I understood even then, and I think there isn't a comma. Maybe I'm being nitpicky, but either way, I would grammarly it. That lawyers were not the root cause of the stress my family carried. Semi-colon, still comma.

53:05I associated lawyers with the sense of voicelessness that I felt, comma, as my childhood was dictated by family court decisions. So I feel like we're really answering the wild law question, which I would still wager is a mistake because I understand that you potentially want, I mean, you better want to be like saying, I want to do divorce law or family law or whatever helps the children who don't like have an advocate or whatnot. But even still, like it's nice that you want to, like why, why should I believe you? There are a lot of people that have motivations, but are for lack of a better term and competent. I'm not saying you're incompetent, but I have no evidence that you are competent. Unless you, yeah, exactly. Unless they have the else up toward the GP, at which point, let's be real. I'm probably just accepting them because like for all our commentary on these, this is not as important as people perceive. If this person's like crushing it in terms of their numbers, it's like, yeah, I'm sure they want to do divorce school. They help our rankings approved onto the next one. So yeah, or at that point, they're like, we don't even really care what she wants to do. Like she has good ranking. She'll probably be successful in school. Let's, you know, why not? Yeah, they continue. Though I do not realize it at the time, this experience

54:09planted the seed for my interest in empathy based advocacy where, holy moly, that's like, that's like NBA SP. Like we're going to develop synergy. Yeah, I mean, I get what you're saying. You want to help people, but I would just say it that way. I wouldn't use buzzwords. But let's continue. I don't say it's a contradictory because she says I didn't realize it at the time, but like, if it planted the seed at that time, then how did you not want to do be a lawyer? And I mean, not like that. She's out here or has to be like, I want to be a lawyer, but like, I find it hard to truly planted the seed if you weren't aware of the time. I don't know. It's hard to believe, I feel like I, I, I, I am personally just skeptical of anything that gets in the like, this was when I knew I wanted to do this. So like it, oh yeah, the light bulb moment. Yeah, and I get like, put in the seed, like, the seed won't grow and you will actually realize this two years later. But like, it almost just seems like, oh, I now want to go to the lost

55:10going to be a lawyer. So let me reach back into the memory archives and like, you know, well, it's funny. It's funny that you mentioned that because like, I'm thinking back, not to lost was I didn't go to a lost was my reason would be pretty stupid. But I'm thinking back to like, why become an Elsa teacher? I can't point to like some formative moment or experience. It's just like, yeah, there's kind of like one thing I do another. I thought it was interesting. I kept working on it. I fell in love with it. But it's not like I had one moment where like, I saw the light bulb go off in some kid I was talking to his mind. I was like, oh my god, this is my calling. I must like that that doesn't exist. And I say it doesn't for you, but like for me, it doesn't. And it often feels it doesn't exist. And it's one moment. And it's just, it's hard. I just always feels a little bit contrived. It's also the other point here. Is that often you all have not read a lot of statements? Um, someone has read a lot of them. They start to read the same. Like this statement to me is like this, like, print generic divorce personal statement. Like I've read this statement probably a hundred times. I mean, that's not necessarily bad things like we talked about. If you have the numbers, you're fine. It's not really, like the writing is literate. You clearly are not bad at English language. If you have the numbers

56:14to back it up, you're good to go. But my point is that like, if you're applying to like Harvard and you're expecting this to get you in, I don't think that they're walking away like, oh my god, we need this person at Harvard Law School. In fact, I would be very confident in saying that this is not the personal statement that gets it done at Harvard. Um, anyway, they say inspired by my nurse mother, I initially explored her career in healthcare. I find this to be a very common trope where people feel the need to explain a way of their prior career. Um, and like, dunk on it and say, oh, I wasn't going to be pre-med, but I changed my mind. I find that it's probably better to just not even mention it and just focus on reason because it now I'm thinking about it. Like before I wasn't thinking about, but now I'm thinking about it. And now I'm concerned that you're a quitter and that you're like pivoting to law and you're going to be pivoting away from law in five years. So my advice is always just like don't you mention these things, but anyway, do you have any thoughts on that or? Oh, I mean, I agree with you. I also will say it just, this seems like a really, it's just kind of a jarring, uh, yeah, it's a weird transition because you know, from like, I want to help people to initially, I want to, I mean, although I guess it does kind of read into it because we're saying empathy based advocacy work. Maybe you could, I guess the healthcare, um, but, but I get your point though,

57:18which is like, why are we talking about this? And they continue, I assume that earning my all capital, this is Trump case, earning my emergency medical technician certification, all capital would confirm that medicine was the right path for me. Um, I assumed, yeah, I don't like the sense construction. It's not awful. It's not broken, but that's not how I phrased that. Like, I assume that like, what's the verb here would confirm? Um, I don't know, I don't like that. Also, well, I actually, okay, something that is concerning to me in reading that it's like that then it was to say that, okay, are you also going to assume that pursuing your JD will confirm that law is the right path for you, right? Are you naive? Like, yeah, I feel like it needs to be, because this is what a lot of people do. A lot of people are really sure what they want to do. So like, I'm going to get my law degree and then realize that, oh, I don't like this. Um, so you want to frame it the other way of like this, like, I really want to pursue law. This is my, this is, we are the perfect fit for each other. School and me, right? Or you something, you know, I just, I'm sort of questioning that maybe there's this trend or tendency to do a path because

58:24someone told you to, or not someone told you to, but like, because you feel like it's the box to check. And then from there, voila, right? Um, I mean, I, you know, we'll keep reading, but yeah, I think your point, which is this may, the story may repeat itself. They continue. Instead, comma, my interactive patients made me realize that I was more passionate about the social and political systems that shape healthcare. Madeline, you do a lot of shaping of the social and political systems as a pro, I mean, I know you're a one L, but do you perceive that you're going to be changing our large societal problems when you're practicing or are you going to be a cog in the machine? Uh, yeah. And it's, I mean, it's, I mean, it's, it can be passionate about things and have issues that you're passionate about and get involved in law school related to those things or whatever, but the reality is like the work that you're going to be doing. And I mean, there's, realistically, there's, there's how it is. There's always going to be this inherent tension between making money and doing something with like altruistic, right? Um, I don't know.

59:26Everyone comes across that threshold. Not always attention. Yeah. No, I, this is just where I go like super ultra like capitalist, um, but I won't jump in all our listeners. I'm kidding. I'm just super Marxist as you all can tell from the pod. Um, anyway, so where are we? Uh, she, she got disillusioned. Yeah. So she became disillusioned, which like, it's not, these aren't reasons against you. But all the other side, if I was interpreting this as a transgender or a weakener, these are definitely weakener because I feel like there's someone who is honestly naive. And maybe you understand more about law than you do about, um, the medical system, but I actually give, I'd think if I had to help people, would I rather go into medicine or law? It's not even close to me. I would go into medicine, which, of course, I'm not going to medicine. I don't care about helping people, um, because I'm an evil, evil person. But if I did, I would go into medicine. And it's not particularly close. But, you know, that's also my judgment. Anyway, they continue. EMT school taught me about anatomy and physiology. But I was more drawn to the story as my patient shared about how public health policies directly impacted their lives. Who are you running for Congress? Are you trying to become a lawyer? Because I, you guys do realize lawyers for the most

1:00:26part do not make laws. Those are called legislators. That's how our system work. Lawyers play within the rules and they bend them and fight for them for their clients. Um, but yeah, it's, I, I read these a lot where people think they're going to be like writing laws. It's like, that's what Congress is for folks, um, which you can run for. You can like volunteer and work for nonprofits. But for the most part, lawyers are not, like, they're not changing the policy. I mean, I was, I was explicitly, I mean, I would say lawyers at big firms, money-making, attorneys at money-making firms, they're pretty much exclusively representing, quote, unquote, the bad guys. Bad guys pay better. So it's like, um, actually, that's a reference on the people. Yes, I just won't make it. But anyway, they continue. I assisted concert attendees. Who faced accessibility challenges and venues. So what is that? Like someone who has like, they're in a wheelchair. There's not a ramp. I mean, that sucks. But like, I don't know, um, it's not already illegal with the idea. Like, that's not changing the policy. That's the policy not being enforced. And that's actually where lawyers are doing what they're doing. Because if a policy is on the books, but it's not being enforced, lawyers can sue based on that. But anyway, in the meantime, you and injured patients who refused to ambulance transport

1:01:28out of fear for the cops. Yeah, I guarantee you're not going to fix the American health care system with your JD. But I like points for having on the last episode of the pod. We actually talked about delusional goals. This might be so delusional that I think it's a little too far reached. So I was saying that people should have delusional goals like him for the man fixing the health care system. That's a bit of a stretch. Um, that's a big one. Also, that promise improper, um, because it just creates a fragment after the end. Oh, yeah. I didn't even catch that. I'm good catchment. See? That's what lawyers do. You're not changing the policies. You're being a grammar Nazi. Because it only makes sense. If you add, you have to, you have to make it a sentence and say, and, you know, I injured patients, but that makes you injuring the patient. So like, I, and, or comma, and I assisted injured patients, which then there's, right. You need the, I mean, the comma. Yeah. Good. Good. For words, we're folks, we do assay. I don't mean there are people that do it. Get grammarly. It's like $10 and it will catch all these things. Um, you really don't need to pay some. In fact, you probably shouldn't pay a copy editor. Because

1:02:28guess what? And grammarly is better than your copy editor. Also, one of our own possible. I was actually working for Grammarly in their legal department this summer, which is really cool. They want to do it. It's funny. They're working on a big firm with Grammarly, which I think is really interesting. So there is interesting stuff. But anyway, um, she's not remaking the American healthcare system. She's working for Grammarly. Anyway, they can tell you. I assisted con. Oh, sorry. I just read that. I worked at a first aid shift. Or sorry, I'm misspoke. I worked a first aid shift at a school conference. I will never forget the wide-eyed student who alerted me that someone had a gun. Security staff, which that feels very like it's coming out of left field, but I'll finish the thought. Security staff responded quickly to resolve the concern, but the fear in that moment was a striking reminder of how regulation and constitutional laws directly shaped day-by, day-to-day public-stating arguments. Um, so I guess we're going to repeal the second amendment. We are going to fix the American healthcare system and we're going to make sure the idea is enforced. I guess my take away from this is like these are all nice thoughts and I'm glad you want to like make change. But the conclusion of therefore law school,

1:03:28to me, is very misplaced. You seem to have, I mean, fixing one of these problems would be the work of a lifetime, let alone all three of them. And I just, I don't know what she does. I know what she or he, they, I've, I've, I've, maybe docks the gender, but, um, these are things that they've observed, right? Which is great. I too observe things every day, right? But I want to know what you do. Um, also first age is should be high for me. And also, I do want to jump in here, but like, while we are, I'd probably need more so the amount of or kind of pile driving this person, this is just meant to be like reading it in the most critical lens. This is honestly not a bad reason, Damon. No, that's true. Yeah, it's actually even, even me with the, the comment issue in the first aid not having the, it's actually better written than most of them. Yeah, I don't, this is like, if I did like LSAT score, I mean, I'd say the content is pretty boring, honestly, like a little naive. But to be fair, that's like most law school applicants. So you're not really hurting yourself. No, don't get it wrong. You're not like the 175 Harvard's pounding down the door to get you there. But if you're at numbers, I could see

1:04:32this getting into like T 14 law schools, assuming you have the numbers. Um, it's not, no, I can say, if I were like working with you, I would definitely start from the ground up and make it more compelling. But this is not the kind of assay where they read it and throw you in the garbage. It's the kind of assay where they're like, that's exactly what we expected given an application. Do you have the numbers to help us? If so, awesome. If no, next. And like Madeline said, the writing is actually quite strong in terms of like grammatical correctness. The senses are not terribly long. It's not hard to follow what she's saying. Like, I guess it's actually decently engaging like the, like, the content or like the presentation of the content. Yeah. And my biggest criticism is that it's naive and has big goals. But those aren't. The naive attack is like a little bit more concerning. But it's also very common. The big goals, like I was kind of making fun of the realisticness of it. But it's better than the alternative where it's like you're not aiming for the stars. Like this person does appear to be trying to change the world. And like, well, that may or may not be realistic. It's not the worst thing to be aiming for them in. So I do want to jump in because I think occasionally I kind of pile dry for a fact. But like, this is not bad. I appreciate you submitting it. And like, if you submit this to law school, you'll be fine. I just think you could make it a little

1:05:34bit stronger. Actually, well, quite a bit stronger. But even in its current state, like this is not. I think the strengthening will be then to getting it to a point of like excellence, right? Not to where schools are like, oh my god, we need this person. What extra money can we give them? Or maybe you're below both meetings by a little bit, but like you are so awesome, we need you. Because like we talked about at schools where you're at, honestly, one medium, this is probably good enough. Anyway, they continue. Ultimately though, these experiences, I realized, or sorry, through these experiences, I keep misreading. I realized that my passion was on direct patient care, but in policies that care for patients. I began volunteering with the ACLU to engage with my community and advocate for legislation that advances equity and accessibility. I really like that fact. This is them doing something in the world, and not just hoping for the world to change with them, doing something with like an organization that I know about. So overall, I think that's like probably your strongest fact so far, which is like you're doing something in the world. Yeah, because like you showed us why you care, but now you're showing like why, like what are you doing about that? Yeah, and now I believe you. They don't walk the walk. Yeah, exactly. Because like

1:06:40anyone could say, I wanted to solve X issue, but you actually like, and for us, it's not saying this is like super high-powered and impressive stuff, because it is just volunteering with the organization. I don't mean to take the air out of it, but the point is that even in that, you have shifted the frame from what you want to do to what you have actually done. I'm like, wow, when this person sees a problem, they actually go do something. It's a point in my book to admit them. So anyways, they continue. I collaborated with other volunteers to lead interactive budget activities, and also Redacted County to give this person a little private. Where participants confided in me about challenging gaps to help your access in their rural, unincorporated communities. Dash, I don't think that's, maybe that's dramatically correct. I don't know, especially for residents with limited mobility or family support. So once again, people are having trouble with healthcare, which is sad. At this point, I would note though, I want to see her do something about it. Like, did you like help someone navigate the process, or did you just observe this and are sad? Because anybody who did just observe it, like you're fine, but where this would be a better statement is like, I helped to walk them through the process, and I helped them get the care they needed. That would be rational. Yeah, exactly. That like you're taking action.

1:07:41And in fourth words, like if you want to rewrite based on listening to this, that's what I would do. Is I would talk about like something where you went above and beyond and solve your problem for one person's zoom in on it. Because even though zooming in, I think some people feel like it loses a lot because it does. When you also only go from a service level, or a 30,000 foot view, it's really hard to see what you did like the ACLU. Because I'm just left like, okay, you collaborate with other volunteers. Like, what does that even mean? That could be like getting coffee. That could also be like really changing lives. And until you tell us, I don't know, and I'm going to assume it's less impressive, honestly. But if you give me the facts about here's what I did, I don't, I don't have to believe you because you're just showing me. It's like, here's how I helped out like so and so, and I helped them like get health care. Like I helped them navigate healthcare.gov, shout out to that website. If we're talking about like Windows 95 websites, um, anyway, I have to get my own. I'm still a little upset. I had to get my own healthcare in 20, 20, 20, 25 because I turned 26. And it is not a fun process. Are you on, um, your husband's health care plan? Are you fortunate? Yeah, it's, it's not fun. It's, it's also awful. I pale. Well, I shouldn't complain too much. I pale like 400 some a month for like terrible health care, by the way. I just do it so that if I get cancer, I'm not bankrupted. Like, it's

1:08:44awful. And I would pay for better health care, but there's just like the options are all, uh, we're not going to make this a rant about the American health care system. Um, but it's like genuinely terrible. Anyway, they continue. They were burdened with the direct consequences of chronic underfunding of health care and transportation programs and the county budget. So like, that's sad. But like what'd you do about it? I was reminded. I don't like that verb. That's you seeing something. I want to see. Yeah. Yeah. Of just how many people, which also just use, don't use the word just. That's one of the things grammarly cut out of my writing. The word just is usually, um, meaningless. Like you can write the sounds without it and it tends to have more power. So instead of I was reminded of just many people, you can say I was reminded of how many people and it has, it's just, it's cleaner. It's what I'm trying to say. Of how many people get left behind in our state and local policy processes and I became determined to become an effectively advocate to uplift those voices in our community that so often go unheard. And now I'm having day job. I feel like we've hit this point before. Like, have we not said that you're motivated? I want to see like why I should admit you. And so far, the only real fact I have in your favors that you were to the ACLU, um, which means you're going to be relying really heavily on your

1:09:46LSAT and GPA to do the convincing for you because your assay is just, it's not convincing me. It's like cool. That's fine. But like, also like, this is where I sometimes get cynical with like reading these assays that are like, I want to like, you know, help my community and like be an advocate for our community. Okay, great. Go, go teach in public schools. Go do it. I tell that people, they don't do it, right? I'm like, you can be amazing impact in your community. Go, go teach in your public school. And they won't, you know, but that's, that's the undercurrent that, oh, they don't want to make public school teacher money, right? Um, and, you know, it's, I'm being a little bit harsh here, but I just, I hear, and I get how there's obviously this weird tension in the assays where you can't, I don't, you know, I don't know what this person's true motivation is. You know, I think some people definitely have a motivation. They just want to make a lot of money, but they can't just like straight up, so actually how to have them say it and it works pretty well. Well, yeah, yeah, you have to, like obviously say it in a certain way, but like, I feel like they can't be honest with it on how to. And so it's like, okay, I want to like, they kind of lean into this generic, like, you know, help my community. I could think of 15 better or more effective,

1:10:50or more immediately effective ways to help your community. I don't know. Like, yeah, grab a ladle at the soup kitchen. I mean, I don't mean to be like, the point is like, if you want to help people, it's, I actually, like, I really resonate with this because I find that the idea, like, you have to get some career to make. And for us, we're honestly don't like pursue a career that'll make a difference, but I find people tend to overly emphasize how important doing like a public interest career is versus like making a difference. It's one of the things I get very irritated by in the law school admissions space. There's a lot of nonprofits, and they tend not to do a lot of good in the admissions space. They tend to spread a lot of bad information. They tend to put people on bad paths. And it's just like, I look at who does the most good, and they're all four profit companies. And the reason I bring this up is it's like, these things are not exclusive because I'm getting to like a whole spiel about like the free market and the benefits of, because like, no one's listening for like my takes on economic systems, even though I'm like not the best at like hiding. I mean, I talk too much on camera. It's not hard to figure out like my opinions on things. Anyway, my point though is that like, it's the part of me is like, it's not either or. And to be

1:11:55fair, this is now not in relation to what our person is writing, but the idea that like, you have to go to law school and get a JD to start making a difference. It's just, it's not true. And to be fair, this person did work at the ACLU, but that was very brief. It was like, they meant it didn't like one or two senses and moved on. And it's like, man, like there's a lot that you can do before going to law school that you don't need a JD for. And that would really convince me that you like walk the walk and aren't just talking the talk as Madeline put it. Anyway, though, um, where we're getting to the end here, they continue in retrospect. I'm like in retrospect of what you put to the ACLU for like two weeks. Like anyway, I am grateful that my professional path initially detoured into the healthcare space before I realized my column of legal profession. Yeah, this is a very common thing I see where people, they have a insecurity about like they, they worry they're going to be perceived as a um, career hopper. And I would not have even thought about that reading this person's essay, but be they keep protesting too much and trying to explain, I promise, I'm not a career hopper and they keep coming back to it over and over. But I promised you the image people they wouldn't even be thinking about this if you didn't keep

1:12:55bringing it up. But because you keep mentioning healthcare and not wanting to like, why do you keep mentioning that? Like, just, I wouldn't doubt you. Like, you're an underdog, like chill. But because you keep mentioning it, now I'm questioning, like, have you actually thought lost a lot? So it's having like the reverse effect. Anyway, they continue. I developed a first-hand perspective on challenges that many individuals face navigating confusing systems like healthcare. I mean, I would just cut that sense entirely. This is not true. Like you did not literally experience it. Oh, yeah. Also, it's not firsthand. It's um, second hand. You watched it. Yeah. Which shout out to Madeline for being the boy or there. Like, it's definitely not a first-hand perspective. That is a second person. Absolutely. Well, I'm sorry. It is nitpicky, but it matters. Um, again, it's your credibility, right? Like that, um, like, that's also rule number two for, you know, like, that's the appellate writing. Like, you literally cannot, like, fuck up the facts. Literally. So anyway, I've been taking crucially. LY is my favorite thing to command app and just cut every word with LY adverb, tend to make me realize it's writing weaker. You can usually get rid of them. Um, there are a few circumstances where they are valuable, but like, that,

1:14:00that word is not needed crucially. Just say the sentence, which is working out in AMT helped me to realize the importance of genuine interpersonal connection in de-escalation and conflict resolution. I would believe that a lot more if you had showed me an example of you like, I don't like the real, that's like the reminding from earlier. Yeah. And it's like, did you actually talk someone down in an AMT situation with some, like, I mean, I don't know what you mean by de-escal. I believe AMT is actually some pretty crazy stuff, but like, show us. And honestly, I feel like this person has great experience, but yeah, I want the showing. I want to see it. Yeah, because I'm like, does now I have to imagine? And yeah, anyway, I just imagine you standing there in all of these different places. Yeah. I connected with patients in many different settings and every single one had their own important story. And I'm like, probably, but you didn't tell us any of them. So now I'm just like, trying to imagine, and you could have told us one of these stories. You said, every single one had a story, tell some of them. Like, tell us about one person and then expand from that and why you're going to kick ass in the hospital. But instead, you've just shown us a very 30,000 foot view of all this stuff. And I'm just like, why should I admit you?

1:15:02And we can kind of speed through the rest of this because now it's just a lot of generic stuff. I felt a deep sense of care for the struggles they were facing as a future legal professional. I will carry this person centered approach with me as I assist clients through legal challenges. So in that whole paragraph, they said, arguably nothing. I mean, I would just cut that whole thing, which no one can see this. I'm like, marking it up just for Madeline's and my sick. But like, that whole paragraph's gone. Like, there was six senses. None of them added anything. And then you have a full conclusion, which I would argue is also probably basically going to get chopped through navigating family court proceedings. That's a child. So now we're going back to the divorce thing, which I forgot we even talked about that. But anyway, an engagement with community oriented policy workers, a young adult, I developed my greatest asset as a future lawyer, Colin Empathy. Yeah, I mean, it's fine. But like, don't we all have empathy? Also, like, engaging how? Like, I engaged with reality television, like, and watch it. You know, but like, I'm not actively doing anything. I just, I don't know. Again, it's the same, it's the same thing that we have just been saying that, um, I feel like this person probably does have great experiences that they could. Yeah. No, I don't doubt that this person

1:16:04could add them come to me for stuff, which was where, like, you should get plenty of free advice on the podcast. Um, do you? Like, I mean, I do have missions, but like, I really don't want to. So like, if you guys want to pay me, um, I'll name my price, but it'll be like, probably absurdly high. Like, I'm aware. Um, but realistically, if she just told a story of like, one person's job as an EMT or one person, she worked with the ACLU and went in depth and then expanded to like, here's what I hope to continue to do in like, one paragraph. I would believe her. I'd be like, wow, this person's awesome. She's done because like, you've done real things. You're legit EMT. You worked with the ACLU. Like, just talk about those things and, and for those work, like, once and not because we've been, I'd say, I would say overly harsh, the whole point of the podcast is to be harsh on these because to like, make it learnable. But like, once again, this is honestly about, I'd say this is a decently above average, maybe a seven years. Yeah. I don't want this, this in order to feel discouraged in any meet. Like, we actually, we're saying this because we believe in you. Yeah. And like, it could be better. And like, honestly, you used to meant this, you'll, you'll probably be fine. I mean, once again, assuming the numbers are there, like, your numbers have to be there, but assuming they're there, like, it's fine. It's also why I've been saving it. Actually,

1:17:05on TikTok, everyone's like, the person standing at that got me into like, actually, awesome. When I read it, I'm like, Jesus Christ does it all. But part of me feels like, that's kind of like, I shouldn't do them on the part, but I mean, they are putting them out there in the world. I only do ones that are requested from listeners, by the way, if anyone's wondering, like, the where I source these from, it's you all, so shout out to you all. If you want to send yours in podcast, I hate put your order.com. We're under no obligation to do it, but we might. And you know, we're getting ourselves into it at this point. Anyway, so then they just say a lot of stuff about how like, the legal system matters. We can kind of cut that because like, it's fine. But like, there's nothing sad. It's just like, you know, I'm going to bring dedication and I'm going to build on my background and all this stuff, which is like, they've heard before. They know. Also, you didn't have to say, if you just ended it with like, now I'm going to law school after saying all these things, you don't have to draw this conclusion. Cause like, I'm just like, oh, cool. Like, you've done awesome work, helping people. You're expanding on that. You want to do it with a JD. I get it. Um, but overall though, like, just just like put a bone in it. This is fun. Like, it's like being cool. I'm probably like a 160. It's not perfect. But it's not bad. Like, I'm not reading this and like, who does this person think they are? Which, oh, that is a lot of personal

1:18:05statements. This one, it's above average. And the writing does help a lot. Yeah. All right. Well, we will wrap in a sec. But I do have to ask, since you mentioned the, um, reality TV, are you caught up on love is blind with this current season? Are you? I know. I have a lot of current season. I was watching all school straighters and said, I don't know if you are not familiar with that. Yeah, they did Ohio this last season. And it's a, there's some good characters. If you, um, I feel like I should watch that thing. Cause I basically live like an hour from Ohio. So I'm, I'm in cultural Ohio. Yeah. It is. It is also funny. They did Ohio, like, not a sit because I think all the other season that have been cities as in like, it's like, Denver or, oh, no, it's just. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or Atlanta. Sorry. It's not a state right after saying cities. Yeah. But I think it was like Cleveland and Cincinnati. Are those by each other? Like, I feel like that's not convenient. If I actually think, because I think Columbus is in the middle. I live near Cincinnati. I'm like, it is Columbus. It's Columbus and one of the, I can't remember if it's Cleveland or Cincinnati. It's one of the two though. Um, I'm near Cincinnati. I live like an hour from Cincinnati. And then in the middle, Columbus and then by the lake up near

1:19:07Michigan is Cleveland. I've never been to Ohio. But that's, how's my understanding of geography? Yeah. Gross. Who wants to be in Ohio? But it is funny about it. Cause they, they call it, um, they do it on a Ohio chant. I've never seen this before. But, um, the like Nick Lache, who it's funny. He's like, I'm Nick Lache. You know, no one knows who you are. I, I think it's all that's so funny. It's like, I'm Nick. She's like, and obviously I'm Vanessa. I'm like, this is the only reason anyone has ever heard your name. I mean, like, no, no offense to them. They're more famous than I am. But it's funny. They're like self delusions of fame. It's like, you guys aren't maybe deal with celebrities. Maybe. Yeah. Um, maybe I'm out of touch. Maybe they are famous. But to me, it's, I always get a giggle when they're like pumping themselves up. I think because she was like, what, like a singer and like the late 90s. Like, Backstreet Boys or something. Am I, am I wrong? Or is that? No, I look at Backstreet Boys, but I think he was in some, like, some Y2K. It was in 98 degrees. I've never even heard of that. Multiplatinum selling boy band. Um, he's from Kentucky, Harlan. Never heard of that. But the Harlan. Yeah. That's like, that's like the boonies. That's like the Edo. He was married to Jessica Simpson. I actually don't know who that is. But I've heard the name.

1:20:08No, no, Jessica Simpson. She's also not anyone from like the 90s, like Y2K. It irritates my, um, life because I just like don't know celebrities. And, um, but like, I, I think it's fun. Like, I actually like it about myself. We're, we'll be talking about, like, someone sounds like I don't, I mean, don't come around. I know, like, a list of celebrities. But, um, and then Vanessa Lashay, what's, she was in NCIS Hawaii. Yeah, I feel like the list of celebrities are fairly accurate description. Oh, I mean, no offense. Like NCIS. Oh, that would agree. And anyway, the old men. They fall back in their time. They're probably more famous, you know? Yeah. Well, I'm also like, there's no shade to it because like, I don't think being famous is terribly important. Nor do I think it's something you should aspire for. But it is funny when you can tell someone gets their self identity from that. They're like clearly playing into it. She also, um, on some, you may have seen this, but on some of the readings, she could be we get trashed and say, like, some create, which like, I think they do that on purpose. Like, they want people drunk because like, they say funny. Um, anyway, I'm a big, my wife and I watch, love is blind because we don't have a lot of shows that we can watch together. Um, and honestly, it's like kind of devolving, I would say, which, because I know over the years,

1:21:08you've become less attentive to it. Um, because we've been talking for probably many years. Why are you with it is like the pod episodes are so long. It's boring. Yeah. It just like, I'm like, they need the only two or three episodes max of the pods. And then, like, because sometimes my husband, I, there was one season, I think it was like the Atlanta season that we like watch, but I was like, this is kind of a commitment to get to like the thing. And so it's so juicy once it all starts falling. No, I know. I know. I know. You know, we watch the traders, which is, um, it was like a reality, like competition shows. Yeah, I've heard of it. It goes pretty good. It just moves faster. Yeah. All right, it's like a murder mystery game. It's like Mafia. You know, Mafia. Yeah, yeah. It's basically Mafia, but like in this castle, but it's like so camp. Like it's so, like ridiculous, but you should use that in one of your briefs and see like, or not, like a test and see like, what a vocab word you guys can use. Um, camp. What does that mean? Look, what's the Oh, like campy, like, something's campy. Like, it's just like, I don't know, like,

1:22:09it's hard looking it up now to finally camp. It's not camp camp camp. To camp is to stay outside and it's so, like, I mean, when something is so yoss and I don't know if that's what you mean by that. No, it's like, uh, like, I guess it's sort of, tragically ludicrous. Is that right? Okay, no. Okay, camp is a slang term describing an aesthetic or style that is deliberately over the top theatrical exaggerated, chronic, often celebrity. So I'm like, almost� turning like the hunger games outfits where they're looking like ridiculous. Yeah, it's like, it's like so, it's like over the top in this, like, in kind of like bad taste that it's like so much, I guess, I don't know. That sounds lovely. That's on the, yeah, that's so funny. I love all the vocab that we get to learn. Um,