How Do I Lead with Confidence Without Always Needing To Be Right?

0:00I'm Executive Coach Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders. I've spent over 20 years working with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump so they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today I'm coaching someone we'll call Carmen to protect her confidentiality. She's been at her organization for a few years in a leadership role and really believes in the company's brand. I have really grown to love leading teams. I think that's where my passion is. I would like to take on a more senior role larger teams. Carmen's current organization is smaller than where she previously worked and she sees

1:05both the pros and cons of that. What she likes is the ability to have more of an impact. I think this is a good size company for me. I like to be able to know everybody and you know this is the type of situation where you know I interact with the CEO on a pretty daily basis where at the other company never would I meet the CEO. So it's been going really well. What I would say is we like many others in our industry are facing some really big challenges right now and so that's where I think the smallness becomes bit of a challenge because all the way up to the C-suite are very involved in every decision and things like that which makes it a little bit more challenging for me as a director to lead my team and you know be able to make decisions and empower because I don't always feel that coming from above either. Let's dive in as Carmen shares what she feels is holding her back. What I'm experiencing right now is I received some feedback at my annual review.

2:09Numbers are good and you know leading my team I get very high marks there and I received some feedback that there have been some peers or other leaders that have experienced tense interactions with me and you know I need to work on you know how do I improve those tense interactions and it struck me because that is feedback that I've gotten in the past in maybe other words and I think you know even in my home life. I don't always realize that it's a tenseness to me it's more of a just a directness or one thing I've always said is you know a gift that I have is you always know how I'm feeling about a situation or a decision or a conversation you're never going to have to guess about well what is Carmen thinking and where I'm thinking is where I've always taken that as a gift is now becoming an obstacle for me in moving up and it's been difficult because business results have been great and my team is doing really well. Well I know how to do those things but the fact that I've gotten this feedback you know

3:14in the past I felt like sometimes I would then run from that feedback and if I just had a new opportunity maybe things would be better and I want to really focus on why is that happening and how can I how can I still be direct and be who I am and showcase my gift in a different or better way that will lead to success for me and for my company. It's a tough thing for me because I've always also prided myself on my ability to build relationships and you know whenever I take any of the personality you know things it's all about you know relationships and connecting people and so that's always been such a big thing for me and as I've matured in my career and in my life I've taken the perspective of you know it's better just to be honest about things versus hiding and I don't want to be seen as the tense person just because I'm being honest you know is there a different way to frame up that communication. So just so I make sure that I hear what's happening so you you've received feedback it's

4:20not the first time you've gotten this feedback and you shared that you not only have got that feedback in the workplace but you've gotten some of this feedback as well and you're out of work context so in your home life and the feedback is and if I'm saying it incorrectly please correct me because I think it's important that I hear it in the way that you intend. The feedback is that people experience interactions with you as being tense is it that they feel like the interactions are tense or that you're tense or both. Things a little bit of both that the interaction is tense and that when Carmen is stressed out or things are not going her way she gets very tense. This feedback has also been framed now in a way of this will get in the way of your career aspirations that you have. Absolutely. Okay. And you said you've gotten this feedback previously was it at this company or you had it at your previous company.

5:21My previous company this is the first time this feedback has come at this in this role at this company and I really love my job. I love my team. I love my brand. I want to succeed at this company and you know be there for a good long time. And this is the from what you're sharing. It also feels like or what I'm hearing is for a while now when you've gotten this feedback in the past you were sort of like maybe they just don't get me. You know if I'm with different people or if I'm in a different situation then this would actually be okay. And now you're kind of saying wait a minute like maybe I need to be doing something differently. That's exactly it. Okay. What made it different or what I feel is different for me this time is I always talked it up to well they like you said they don't get me or it's them. That's how they're doing things and why they can't handle the directness but you know

6:22a pattern comes forward. This time it was okay I can control how I respond. So how do I respond to this and not rely on somebody else's response to me. Well kudos to you. It's hard. It's hard. It is yeah it's hard. It's hard. Well what makes it hard? To admit that I could be doing something differently better different. It's hard to really take that ownership. I've always had the right answer. I've always done things the right way and prided myself on you know I'm the best. And so when you look inside and think maybe I'm not the best at this that's hard or it's different maybe not hard but it's it's a very different perspective and you know to get really vulnerable about it has been interesting for me but also freeing in a way like I'm the only one who can change this. Yeah I mean you know you're having your own like Taylor Swift moment right.

7:28I wish yes. Yeah. Let me be specific about the moment here now. I'm talking about the hi it's me it's me I'm the problem moment right although I wish I could change that a little bit because it's not I'm the problem it's oh I'm part of the problem right. Yes. And so yes you are taking ownership but I want to be very clear that what you're describing here in terms of the feedback that you have gotten is relational. It is the energy that is created when you are in the room with somebody else like the feedback you didn't give yourself feedback to say you know what Carmen when I'm just sitting with myself I feel tense with myself right like that's not what you're coming with you're coming with when I am interacting with others specifically peers other leaders within the organization or even peers in my home life or folks who I'm trying to relate

8:29to even though these relationships are important to me it is being described as the experience of being with me is tense or they experience me as being tense and so because there is a other person in the room who is also interpreting the situation they have their part of it too. Yes. They're not sitting here so we can't talk about that but you contribute to that energy that's in the room to that interaction so we have to look at your part of the formula right. Exactly. Anything that changes on your end or the way you approach it then changes the dynamic in some way. So kudos to you for taking ownership on your part something which you hadn't done before. Thank you. Thank you. So when you hear this feedback of hey when I'm interacting with you it feels tense or you feel tense as you said like it takes some vulnerability for me to sit here and like

9:34accept that maybe I play a part in this right. What about it though resonates with you if anything around what you're hearing. It resonates because I feel the tenseness too and so I can look back and think oh I wonder if this was one of the people and this is one of the interactions I could feel the tenseness in myself maybe not in the moment but maybe after the fact or just that it just wasn't great. And so when I heard it it's a little embarrassing because I've heard it before but then I can also look back and say I get it and I don't feel good about it either. You know when I think about those times I don't feel good and so then I think while that person probably didn't feel great if I didn't feel good. What is it specifically that you don't feel good about. How I came across. Which is what? Maybe outside of the tense.

10:36Am I coming across as condescending or why didn't you know this or what's wrong with you? Why can't you get this right? Those type of feelings. Is that what you're telling about yourself or is that what you're saying to the other person? That's what I'm thinking sometimes about the other person or I don't like your style so that I'm going to give you a style and then I'm not going to feel good about my style. I think some of the things that I've thought about is if someone isn't doing something the way I would do it that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong and I have a tendency to here's the answer. Here's the way to go about it because it's my way and if somebody comes and says well what if we took this path and like no this is the only way. When you have had these moments of feeling you said I feel tense myself. I feel the tenseness and it wasn't great. What is it that you're actually doing in those moments right when you think back like maybe

11:39you don't have to tell me the details of the situation but think back to like a recent moment where in hindsight you can look back and say yeah you know that wasn't great. Tell me what it is that you were doing in that moment that in hindsight you're like I now feel tense about that where I felt tense then and it doesn't it I don't feel great about the way it went to. I think it's brutal unfiltered honesty that could be packaged up differently maybe. So how did you package it up as brutal unfiltered honesty. So tell me what that sounds like. I want to like here if I were a fly on the wall or you know AI in your zoom. So I'll give an example of one of my peers we're talking about a specific metric. It felt like I was getting pushback on this metric and you know what do we need to do to meet this metric.

12:41And after the fact my colleague and I had a conversation and she said I'm trying to help you and I said it doesn't feel like it. In that instance I was trying to be brutally honest of I don't feel like what you're doing doesn't feel like helping me. It was all about me and how I'm feeling versus how she was feeling. Mm hmm. Okay. So I'm capturing two things there. There are the words you said and then there's the tone in which you just shared it with me. Yes. The tone that you just shared it with me is that reminiscent of the tone you would have shared with your colleague as well. Okay. So that's what it sounds like both verbally as well as tone wise when you get tense. We're just going to call that the tense moments. Yes. Okay. Okay. Now tell me in situations where perhaps somebody disagrees with you, you are challenged

13:46etc. and you don't feel tense. What does it sound like then? Then it sounds like that's an interesting perspective or that's a great thought or that's a valid point. Those I would say are phrases that I will use or I really like that or even I didn't think of that. I'm not going to think of everything. That's why there are multiple people in this organization because we all bring a different perspective and being okay with I wasn't the one to think of it first. Mm hmm. Does that make sense? Okay. Yeah. It does. And then what's the tone because that's what you would say. So we have the words and what tone would it be in? Oh, I didn't think of that. Mm hmm. So okay. So it's a, how would you name that tone? Curiosity? Curious. Mm hmm. How would you name the previous tone? I like the tense tone, tense moments.

14:47Tense tone. Yeah. Okay. So the shift is for you. The way you've experienced it is that when you are having tense moment, I interact with Carmen and tense moment. What I would hear is, you know, no, that's not it. Right. An assertion. That's not it. Either that's it or that's not it. And then a tone that as you categorize as tense. And when I would shift to the non-tense moments with Carmen, I would hear things like, oh, I like that or I didn't think about that or that's an interesting idea, et cetera. And the tone would be curiosity. I want to kind of dig into the words, right? Okay. So the first one was intense moments is, no, that's not it. The shift to that's an interesting idea or that's something that is either something that I like or something that I'll take into consideration or just something to think

15:48about. In the same way that we named the two different tones, tense tone, curiosity tone, how would you categorize the types of words that you use, the language that you use when you are in the tense moments and how you frame it. It's actually a framing of your response versus the framing of your response in the non-tense moments. What name would you give it? What's the impact around that? The immediate thought that comes to mind is open versus closed. Okay. So tense, we have a closed, framing closed response, not tense, we have an open response. Yeah. So when you are in the tense situations, what is it about the person, the situation or yourself or all three of the above that you are assuming that leads you to then respond

16:56in a closed way? I'm assuming that we're not aligned or I'm assuming that the other person or in the situation, they just don't agree with me or my perspective. And as a result, you have to do what? Defend myself, maybe. Defend what about yourself? Defend my perspective or just defend my rightness. I have to meet my goal. And so you meet your goal by defending your rightness, which makes you then be closed by saying. By saying you're wrong, I'm right, I'm yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. We'll be right back after this. Fall is a time of new beginnings.

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22:07can help you gain clarity and stay consistent. Write your own money story with Monarch. Use code leaders at Monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch core half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at Monarch.com with code leaders. Sometimes it takes hearing the same feedback in a new situation to really understand that something needs to change. In the past, Carmen could brush off some of the criticisms of directness, telling herself that maybe it was the people around her who didn't understand her. But in this organization where she really wants to succeed, she began to be honest with herself about the pattern, and she's highly motivated to do something about it. I'm always careful around the idea of fault in these situations. Every interaction involves multiple people, and we can't control how someone else responds, but we can focus on Carmen's part of the equation and see whether changing her behavior

23:11changes the outcome. One way to do that is to start giving names to her different types of reactions. Defining these reactions is the first step for Carmen in beginning to change. Once she can recognize that she is making an assumption or moving into a closed response, she is more room to choose what happens next. Let's push a bit further to better understand how these realizations are making Carmen feel in our conversation. I feel like as we're going through this, I'm looking at you and you're breathing and sighing very heavily through it. Tell me what you're thinking as we're working through this. What's coming up for you? There's so much more behind the words, but the words are taking on so much. The tone, the tone says all of the things that are my issues, not the other person's issues. The tone is falling right in line with what you want it to do, which is very aligned

24:13with the like, I need to defend myself. If I have to defend and protect myself, I'm not going to use a tone of, this is great. I'm going to be like, oh, back off. Think about it in the physical world. If I need to defend myself against someone, I'm not going to use a tone of like, oh, hello. I'm going to, or tell me a little bit, it's not going to be that. It's going to be like, back off and I'm making a posture with my hands like you need to back off. And so your tone is actually falling very much aligned with the words that you're using and with the assumptions you're making, which is that people aren't aligned. They disagree. And therefore, in order to reach my goal, I have to be right so that they can agree with my rightness. That's exactly it. I think this is maybe what it means to be righteous. Rightness and righteous. Yes. I think you're right. Let's sort of fast forward.

25:15I want you to keep in mind that same situation that you've been picturing, that was that tense moment. Okay. What would you have needed to assume differently about yourself, the other person or the situation in order for it to lead to those more open words and that tone of curiosity that you have experienced before? And when I say what would you have needed to assume differently, I'm not suggesting that you lie to yourself or make something up. Okay. What else could you assume that is true that would have led to more open words and more of a curious tone? Assuming that there are more than one way to achieve the goal. My way might have really good aspects of it, but there might be something that somebody else has thought of or a different team's perspective and how they go about their work

26:16to get to this goal can be as helpful in achieving the goal, which is achieving this new metric for the business. And so when you use that as your assumption, like I just want you to sit with that, is that something that you actually believe to be true? What you just said, because I don't want you making anything up, you know, because some people will be like, oh, because I can find you're something else out and then deepen their soul. There's like, there's like really nothing else to figure out. I really do believe that. And what I struggle with is the part of my brain that tells me, but your way is probably the best. Or, but you've always been rewarded for meeting things and doing things your way. And so it's that struggle of, I know that what I'm saying is true, you know, that different perspectives can, you know, lead to a much better result. Mm-hmm. But fighting with the piece of me that is not having all of the answers.

27:18Yeah. Right. So what I hear you saying is, you know, it's not just that like I know the answer or I want to be right. What is supporting the tenseness and the closed and the defensiveness is I have the best answer. Not only do I have the answer, I have the best answer. And I need it to be the best answer. And I need you to understand and accept and own that it's the best answer. Yes. And so that in and of itself is very closed, right? Because it's one way. How could you take that one simple statement? I have the best answer and let it breathe a little bit, meaning open it up to the other as well. Because that's what I hear you doing. You kind of want to bring the other into the room. So what would be the small nuance that you could reframe that belief? I have the best answer. What could it be reframed to that would actually allow for acknowledgement of other people's

28:20answers, which is what the, oh, I didn't think about that. I like that. I'm open to that. And also hope you lead with more of a curious tone rather than a tense tone. Let's see that this is the hard part, right? The reframing. And we're just playing around. You don't even play around. Okay. We're going to hold it lightly. You don't even need to follow it. You can say it and then be like, nope, I don't like that one. Yeah. For me, it's, I think still recognizing that I have good ideas, but multiple ideas, I don't want to discount my ideas. And I still want to have confidence. And I think that's where I go when I feel someone has a different perspective than I start to question, well, am I wrong? I want to still have confidence in my thoughts and perspectives because I know that I do have really good thoughts and ideas, but it's not about being the best. It's about bringing all the good ideas together to form one grand result.

29:21And so I'm going to offer you what we often miss, but is, would people say it all the time? I hear it all the time. Even the way you just frame that whenever we used a word, but we're sort of dismissing one part of what we're saying. And so when you said, I have good ideas, but, duh, duh, duh. And then you were like, no, let me stop that because I feel like then I'm dismissing my part of it. So yeah, you would be dismissing your part. So how could you reframe what you think about the idea so that it doesn't dismiss you or dismiss the other? I have good ideas and you have good ideas. Two things can be true. Two things can be true. So that could be one, right? Potentially instead of using I, we, we look at how revolutionary that is, right? So what if, let me just throw it out there, we're just brainstorming here. What if you tried instead of I have the best answer?

30:24I believe we have the best answer. What difference would that make? Do you think in the way that you communicate both in what you say and how you say it? I have this weird sense of freeness, like something has been, you know, off my chest, that it's not just about me having to come up with the right answer. It's we're all in this together and we're all really smart. And I don't know if that's answering your question. Yeah. Exactly the way you want. I don't want it. I know, I know it. But, you know, it's this, huh? I'm not the only one responsible to come up with the right answer. We can do this together. And so what's interesting me in your response to like, how does that feel? If you just reframe your operating principle from I have the best answer to we have the best answer, which then leads you to a tone that's more curious and words that are,

31:29as you put it earlier, more open. And you said, oh, it makes me feel freer. I think what's happening is you're expanding. You're making the space bigger. You're allowing others in the space that you've created. Whereas in reality before what you were experiencing and definitely what they were experiencing is that the space was closed. As you put it earlier, it's like, it's all, I've made it all about me. They're in the room, but they're not really in the room. Yeah. So does that mean that there are times, maybe many, many times when, when you do have the best answer? Of course, yes. There are going to be times when you have the best answer for that situation. My question to you is, as you are leading, not just your teams, right? But you're also leading these relationships with your peers and with other leaders, because this is where you're getting the feedback from particularly what is the objective there? Ultimately. The objective is the collaboration and the relationships to build larger, stronger teams.

32:36My team is great, but there are all these other teams. The objective is not many small teams, but one large team that is working at the high level. Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is what I want to have happen, right? The ideal outcome that will also support me and my career and in getting my objectives is that there's a collectiveness and a collaboration in meeting the business goals. The objective is not that we meet the business goals just because of me and my answers or just because of me. Yeah. So if we peel back, if we reverse engineer to the objective is that we meet the business goals, not I meet the business goals, if we reverse engineer from the we, which approach the one that we categorize as tense or the one that we recognize as non-tense, there are two paths, which one increases the likelihood of you getting to that goal of reaching the

33:40business objectives collaboratively? The curious open. Carmen. Exactly. Okay. The curious open Carmen. So now you have two paths and I'm sure there are many others, but we have two right now to choose from notice. I'm not saying get rid of the closed Carmen because are there going to be moments when you need to be like that where that is the path that you want to follow? Yes. There will be moments, but it is all grounded in what is the outcome you're looking to drive to here rather than reacting to as you've said it. How I've been rewarded in the past, how I define who I am by being right all the time, because then you're not meeting the goal of the business objectives. You're just feeding and meeting the goal of making sure that you can defend the success and rewarding that you've had to very different objectives. Yeah. Is that landing with you in terms of having these two paths?

34:42Absolutely. Okay. The purpose of this is what if I choose the wrong path at the wrong time? Yeah. So what if what if what if what if what if that happens? What do you do? If I choose the more open curious and I should have chosen the other. I think that's where I worry most about is either my team or my peers will be looking to me to make a decision because they're not sure or they don't have the ideas and it will take a little bit longer to get to, maybe there'll be some more swirl to get to where we need to be versus getting to there right away with a response. And then if what if I choose the more closed, this is the way to do it. If I do that, when I could be missing out on a lot of other really great ideas or a lot of other perspectives or missing out on, say great relationships, that maybe a little

35:49too high. That's the implications. That is the evidence you would see afterwards. And we talked earlier about you mentioned that you have felt the tenseness. And sometimes it's been in the moment, sometimes it's been after the fact when you look back and you're like, oh, that wasn't that great. So you've recognized, we've now put names to it, but you've recognized moments when you're like, oh, I was closed. It was closed Carmen who showed up and it should have been open Carmen that showed up. That's what that situation called for. That's after the fact. So that's in hindsight. How do you think you could recognize it in the moment? How would you know what evidence would you need to have in the moment that, oh, wait a minute, closed Carmen has entered the group chat, but who we really needed was open Carmen. I think it's recognizing the other people in the room, their responses. Because if I close off, they're going to close right off.

36:52I think being able to get those social cues and pick up on them and be thinking about them, that's number one is how are other people feeling? How am I making other people feel? But then also that feeling that rises up in my chest when I just know, like, okay, close Carmen, go back down. Okay. So that is your signal. Okay. You get two signals. You get external cues. And then you get internal cues in the moment. So I love the group chat thing, right? Because it's like, you know, I don't know if you're in any group chats, but I'm in a group chat. And it's like, I actually sometimes I didn't know how to read the external cues. So like I had to ask, what does the exclamation point mark emoji actually mean when people react the little reaction with the, the exclamation? I'm like, is that bad or good? Like I don't know. Does it mean you're excited? Or are you alarmed? Like I know. And I'll tell you the Gen Zers at my office have like that emoji is bad. Don't ever use that one.

37:53I mean, I would just try to give you a thumbs up. Like it's great. Maybe in the Gen X or that I am, I just was really confused. But here, but here is the point, right? Like, use the external cues to be able to read. And you've had enough of them that you can go back and say, oh, like when I'm dealing with this person, this is when I can feel like they're experiencing the tense moment. And this is the response I get when they're not experiencing. And that may be a different person to person. So there's a observe, read the external cues. And don't ignore the internal cues, which you have articulated. You do feel you were like, I feel it rising up in my chest. Then you kind of like showed it to me. Visibly, right? Pay attention to that. That's your body telling you. This isn't it. We're trying to help you see that this is not in alignment with what this situation needs right now. Yeah. How does open Carmen gracefully take over if closed Carmen has started the group chat?

39:00How do I say it? Stop. Let me reverse and start that conversation over without being like, okay, Carmen, what are you doing here? Yeah. You know, because sometimes it will take close Carmen to start off and see the external cues or even feel the internal cues to then say, hold up, okay, open Carmen, please come take over. Okay. I love this so much. So first of all, when you are in the moment, you know how we talked about hindsight. Hinesight is when you can look back and say, oh, yeah, I could have done that differently. Very useful. Use it as learning. In the moment, I call that having insight. You're in it and you see as it's happening. It's not just seeing what's happening. You've got to see it first. Oh my gosh. Yes. Close Carmen is in the group chat. And now I have a choice because we've laid out the paths. I can have others enter the group chat. So I'm going to run with this group chat metaphor analogy, whatever it is.

40:01If you were literally in the group chat with your friends and you're interacting with your friends in a particular way and you're realizing, hmm, the text isn't landing the way that I need it to land or I don't feel good about. It's not landing well with me or it's not landing well with others. What would you do? I would probably say, I'm sorry that that came out that way. That's not how I intended it or what I really meant to say or let me clarify and take that other path of trying to land a little more smoothly. Okay. I mean, I think you're correct. You pick up another club. Often think about this as like, there's a reason there's a lot of golf clubs in a bed. You don't play a game of golf with just one club or at least you can, but you're not going to play a very complex game, you know, yeah, it's going to make it a lot harder on you to play with one club. But if you can play with all the clubs, fantastic. If you can play with a few, okay, good enough.

41:02Yeah. Just say, well, I picked up that club. I'm just going to stick with that club. I'm just not going to use any of the others that are in the bag. You say, oh, my bad. I tried to swing with that. Well, I don't know the technical technicalities of golf that well. I'm not sure if you're not allowed to switch clubs. But in this game, there's no rules around that. Yeah, you're of course correct. You say, oh, you know what, my bad wrong club. I don't even know if you need to apologize. You acknowledge, which is difference. Give yourself grace, but you acknowledge, you know what, let me own my part of it. That's not the way that I needed that to land. I'm just going to course correct. Let me start over again or let me reframe that or let me just hear you out right now. Yeah, you course correct in the moment in the moment. I number one love that analogy of the golf clubs. I'm also not a great golfer. I didn't and maybe you were a great golfer. I don't know. I'm not. But I think that that's so true that you have all these different clubs for different situations,

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44:12What's interesting in Carmen's situation is that her assumptions and her tone are actually aligned. The challenge isn't necessarily how she's communicating. It's the assumptions underneath it. So part of the work in this coaching session is to expand what Carmen believes is possible in any given situation. She can have a good idea and someone else can have a good idea too. She can be confident in her perspective without needing it to be the best and only perspective. That also means taking a step back from any specific situation or interaction and focusing instead on the ultimate goal. First, we define the reactions Carmen was having. We then define what she's ultimately trying to accomplish, the success of her team and her career. That becomes her North Star when things start getting tricky. There's also an important concern for Carmen here. That giving up defensiveness could also mean giving up control or make her look like a

45:17weaker leader when she actually needs to be decisive. But the goal isn't to make Carmen less decisive. It's to give her more choices and help her recognize which kind of leadership the moment requires. So we'll jump back in to address those concerns. I am so transparent that I like to be like, I'm sorry, let me start over. And I just want to make sure that that's okay to even acknowledge I'm of course correcting. Acknowledge my flaw. Well, I want to be careful about the words that we use. Because no golf club is in the bag accidentally. None of them are flaws. They're all clubs. They're just all used for different reasons. So picking up or choosing initially the club that is not aligned with the goal that you want out there when you're on the course, you know, depending on the positioning you have on the course, doesn't make the club wrong.

46:19It just makes it that this is not the club that's going to increase the probability that you get that ball close to that hole. That's all that is. And so to bring it back to you, if you were to take the closed approach and you realize, oh, that's not going to get me closer to the goal that I have around we need to reach the goal in a collaborative way, then it's not saying, oh, closed approach is wrong or flawed. It's just that's not the one that's going to get me there with the path of least resistance. Right? Yeah. Or in that situation, yeah. Exactly. So let me put that club back in and let me pick a different club, not a better club, not the best club, not the right club, a different club that is more aligned with the distance that I am to the whole to wherever I'm seeing, whatever is. It's alignment, alignment between club and outcome, alignment between assumption, communication

47:26tone and words and outcome. That's what we're doing. So I'm offering you to reframe the language you're using as your course correcting because inherent in the language you were using is that there's something wrong. There's nothing wrong. They are choices. How does that land with you? Really it resonates a lot. I go to words like wrong, fail, flaw, those right away faster than I should or maybe not even faster and I just shouldn't go to those words. And so it's permission to not think about that permission to take the positive role. Yeah. I mean, in a way, Carmen, right? Inheritally, when we think there's always a best, what does that mean that there's always a worst? Worse. So you have been approaching things from sort of black or white versus, oh, there's a range,

48:27there's gradients. There's like gradients of colors. They're just all different colors. There's not a best and the others the worse. It's not a ranking of choices. It's a distribution of choices. Very different way of looking at these situations and therefore approaching them and therefore how we experience them. And when I say we, I mean you, Carmen, you haven't even done anything differently and you're already like, I'm experiencing this a little differently with a little more openness, a little more ease. Yeah. So that's insight in the moment, how you of course correct. Now, I want to offer you another element. We've talked about hindsight, insight. What if you approach these situations when you can with foresight? What do you think I mean when I say foresight? Being about a plan for approaching the situation before speaking, before jumping in.

49:33That's right. And so the beautiful thing about having pattern recognition, right, which you have had, which you have. Yeah. I love like we are we're starting on like the advanced stage because you already have pattern recognition is you can say, oh, I know what the pattern is. And understand what my choices are. Like again, I'm going to go golfing. I know what the course is. Maybe I've played it before or maybe I've studied it or maybe I've heard about it, you know, or maybe I don't know anything. But at least like let me go in knowing that I don't know anything about this course. Therefore, how do I want to approach this course knowing what I want my desired outcome to be? How would I approach it that would increase the probability that I get to the desired outcome? So the foresight is to start with what is my desired outcome?

50:36And for you, you know, I know there's many others, but we've sort of said, oh, like one desired outcome is I have to get to the business goal. The other desired outcome is we collaboratively need to have the business goal. You choose. What do you want the outcome to be? And now I'm going into this meeting. So what would be questions that you could ask yourself to prepare you for a meeting or a conversation that would increase the chances you would approach that meeting aligned with the outcome that you desire? The first thing that comes to mind is what club do I need to have in my bag for this situation, which I don't know. So I like what you said about what is the desired outcome and really understanding what is this particular situation? Where are we at? And you know, in the process of getting to the outcome, you know, what stage are we at?

51:36Have we tried lots of things? Is this the very beginning or the end? Yeah. I mean, so in a way like you're working the process backwards, right? You're reverse engineering. You're starting because now this is in the future. What do I want the outcome to be? How do I want people feeling in that meeting? Do I want them to feel like it's tense? Do I want them to feel like it's open? Do I want to feel like it's tense? Do I want to feel like it's open? Is this a we situation or is this an I situation? You choose. I'm not judgmental. Pick, right? Choose. Then you can work it backwards. Oh, if I want it to be a tense situation, then what are the words I need to use and what is the tone I need to use? We already know what they are. You know, the words would be, I know the answer I'm right. The tone would be the tense tone, right? Oh, if my desired outcome is I want people, I want to increase the chances of people not feeling tense. I want to increase the chances of me not feeling tense. I want this to be a we collaborative thing.

52:38Then I know that the club I pick up is the open-carbon tone and words, which is curiosity and that. Okay. And so what is the mindset I would need to have? What are the assumptions I would need to make about myself, about the person I'm dealing with or people I'm dealing with or the situation that would increase the likelihood that open Carmen enters the group chat over close Carmen or whichever one you choose. You can do all that in advance. I love that. That's for sight. What would for sight allow you to do? It would allow me to play out the situation and test out. Maybe. Yeah. Close Carmen, open Carmen and what happens, what might happen and of course correct before getting to the course practice. And if you go in and you realize, oh, I did for sight and dammit. I didn't bring in the club that I was supposed to use.

53:40What do you kick in with them? Them is the course correction. Them is the course correction. Them is the course correction. Them is the course correction. And if even all of that doesn't work, then you have hindsight. And guess what? Hightsight is amazing because it's the lessons learned and you're like, all right, opportunity. It's not to beat yourself up. It's to say, okay, great. That just means that was another opportunity to learn and I can reapply it. So those are all things that are your disposal. Now there is nothing I believe that I can tell you or switch that I can turn on to the say, okay, from now on, you're going to go and use them. So what would you need to support you to be able to actually apply this insight, foresight, hindsight and then walk through the questions that we articulated? What would hold you accountable to that? What I was going to say is I need to hit the driving range and practice and gather

54:44data, if you will, on what happens when I use foresight, hindsight and sight, all of the things. But I don't know if that's holding myself accountable. It's more, okay, that's the, I'm just going to go action and practice and do and things. Yeah. So that would support you in building the muscles. Building the muscles. Absolutely. The accountability, I like to think of finding, you know, an accountability partner and, you know, tell someone that I'm working on this and say, can you call me out when maybe I picked the wrong Carmen to come out? Mm-hmm. But then I think it's not on somebody else to tell me that I did it wrong. I have to. It's about me and my response and my reactions. So may I offer a suggestion? Please. Because you could do that. And I think that's fine. You can tell people, here's what I'm working, you know, this is something I'm trying I'll say blame it on the coach, you know, I talk to a coach and like, I think I'm going to try this. You tell me what you think.

55:45It's not on them. You could just ask them, you know, enroll them. That's certainly fine. And you can also, you know, give yourself a reminder. So you know what meetings you have coming up and you can say, okay, like, let me take five minutes, three minutes. That's how long it took us right now to go through that process. You know, what is the outcome I'm trying to achieve here? What would I need to say and how in order to achieve that outcome? What do I need to assume about me, the other, the situation in order to increase the likelihood that that's what happens, you know, with no attachment, it might, it might not. You're just trying to increase probability. So you're basically thinking through your golf game before you're on the course. You know you're going to go play golf. Don't wait till you're on the course to be like, oh my God, I'm so surprised I'm here. How did I get here? How did I get here? How am I doing? Yeah.

56:46So you make it part of your warm up. And by the way, I am notorious for like not doing my warm up stretches, right before my workouts. But then I've had to, right? Because I'm like, I don't want to hurt anymore. So that's enough to be, hold myself accountable. And my body's been like, you have to. So I make it a rule like right before the five minutes, it's just practice, practice, it's like brushing your teeth. You know, so if you have the practice of, yeah, I brush my teeth right before I go to bed. Same thing. That's holding yourself accountable. Tie it on to something you know is going to happen. You know you're going to have the meeting. Look at your calendar. Either right before or the day before. Take 10 minutes, look through the conversations you need to have. 10 minutes, let me think through them. That's the accountability. Hold yourself accountable. I can do that. You can do that? Yes. I know I can do that. Yes. Okay. So I feel like we've covered a lot. We have. Tell me how you feel now versus at the beginning of the conversation.

57:48I feel really light and great and that there are other paths. And I can choose the path. You know, that to me is, I don't want to say that there's a way out of this, but I can do the work and I can take that responsibility and that onus and have a different outcome. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love that you in the moment where like I don't really know if it's about a way out of this. I think there is a way. In fact, there are multiple ways. Right? There are multiple ways. Your choice. And that's all you can control. How they respond then is up to them. You can't own that, but you can control how you respond to any given situation. You've demonstrated today that you're able to make that choice in the moment and before the moment. So that's your practice. Great. Thank you. Thank you. As we wrap up the coaching session, it's important for Carmen to walk away with a practical

58:51plan to implement some of the changes we've talked about. To extend the golf metaphor, she needs to figure out her plan to practice on the green. The tools in her toolkit include hindsight, looking back at a difficult interaction and asking what she can learn from a situation, insight, recognizing in the moment when closed Carmen has entered the group chat and knowing that she can course correct and for site, getting ahead of the situation by thinking a few minutes to ask what outcome she's driving towards to describe which club she wants to bring into any given conversation. And the thing to remember about practice is, if you get it wrong, it's not a failure. It's just another opportunity. Because the goal isn't for Carmen to always choose the right response. It's to build the muscle of recognizing that she has choices and then choosing the approach that is most aligned with what she wants to accomplish.

59:58That's it for today. Come back in two weeks for a new coaching real leaders ask Muriel anything episode. If you want me to coach you through an issue or have a question you want answered, head on over to coachingrealleaders.com and let me know. And if you want to unpack the episodes from coaching real leaders, you can join me at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com where I host live discussions about each coaching session you hear on this show. You can also follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins and on Instagram at Coach Muriel Wilkins. A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you would go to Apple Spotify or wherever you listen to subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. Thank you to my producer Mary Do, sound editor Nick Crinco, music composer Brian Campbell and my chief of staff Emily Sofa. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in this coaching conversations and to you are listeners who share in their journeys.

1:00:59I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.