Hot Topics (Part 2): Fur Babies, Vasectomies, Eye Rolling & More

0:00And they were mold naked, the man in his life, and were not ashamed. Hey friends, welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We're Dave and Ashley on this podcast. We uncover God's design for lifelong love. And you're here for a great episode. We're in part two of Hot Topics. For Rapid Fire, we're answering some of your biggest questions and tackling some of the biggest topics in culture related to marriage. And so it's going to be a great episode and we're just going to dive straight in today. That's right. Okay. So we're going to start with the first one, sweetie. This is something you really get on. He gets on his soap, Bob's. Yeah. This one's more of just a pet peeve of mine than a hot topic. Yes. And that is why smart people, capable people, sometimes act helpless when it comes to finding a baby sitter. Okay. Now this one, I'm not much of an eye roller, I think it's rude, but I have to really fight

1:02an invisible eye roll when I have smart friends who will be like, we just, we never do a date night because my parents live hours away and I just won't trust our precious baby to anyone, anyone ever because no one will love them like me. I'm like, they don't have to love them like you. They just have to keep the child alive for a few hours. That's their whole job. They're not, they're not going to become the child's new mom or dad. Like can they keep the child alive so that you can have a marriage? Because what happens when you don't is the kid grows up and moves away, that precious baby grows up moves away and then you've got an empty marriage and an empty nest. That's why a lot of these people get divorced. They just put their marriage on a hold and acted like victims that couldn't figure out how to get a baby sitter. Guys, that baby sitter is some of the best money you could spend on your marriage. It's a baby sitter now or divorce lawyer later. How do you want to spend the money? He feels very strongly.

2:02Well, it's very strongly. I just see people that act so helpless. Yes. I'm like, we've never lived around family and we've just everywhere we've gone, we've figured it out. We've talked to the children's volunteers at church or the nursery workers at church. You've already gone through background checks. We've gone to websites that specialize in these things. We've gone to proms, sitter, city. We've gotten to know neighbors who have teenage daughter who might be good with kids. We build relationships that were intentional. We build a roster, guys. I'm not talking about one baby sitter. We built a roster. Now we're past the ages where we need that as much because our younger kids are pretty self-sufficient. We've got older boys that can watch. They were younger. It was a lifeline for our marriage. Our friends that didn't prioritize that, I see him struggling now or divorced now and I just, I want to protect you from that. And we're not saying it's the thing, but it does. It is something that can really negatively affect your marriage. If you never, ever get away for a date night and I will say it wasn't just logistics that

3:06that were hard for us or hard for people who maybe kind of give a lot of excuses. A lot of times it is economical and we've been there. Like where we did not have extra money, but we were like, we were so broke. We are going to budget. We will go, we'll get a sitter and we'll find an economical one. Or go to a parent's night out. Or go to a parent's night out of why. Like the church had it, the YMCA had it, like anybody that would just watch our kids for a few hours. Right. And they're all background check at those events. Yeah. We make sure, I mean, we want our kids. I get, you know, you doing the voice is telling me it's mostly women saying this. Okay. It is. Because most guys are not as picky. They're talking to babysitters like, well, how long have you been out of prison? And what were you in for? You know, you seem fine. But wives, that mother bear instinct kicks in and I get wanting to be protective. But I think that there is a, there's an over correction in this area in particular about childcare where people, I don't know, they wear it like this badge of honor.

4:06Like I love my kids too much to ever leave them. And what that creates is codependency with the kids, brokenness in the marriage. And we just want to help protect you from that. And so that's a little soapbox in mind. Get a babysitter. Right. And spend time with your spouse more than one, more than one and get creative. Maybe even, even take turns with your friends. Like if you don't trust a babysitter, you know, or in your area, maybe you have some friends who also have kids around your kids ages and maybe one week, you watch all the kids, they go on a date the next week, you know, you guys just take turns. That's good stuff. Yeah. A hot topic. That was like a public service announcement from your friend Dave and, and I'm sorry for stepping on toes. But now we'll get to some actual hot topics. And that's this, maybe the first real hot topic. Why couples should choose to have kids in a time when fewer and fewer couples are choosing to have kids. Why you should choose to have kids if that's, if you're able to and why for babies don't count. We love.

5:07I just defended so many people. Are for baby. We love our for baby. We had a for baby before we had kids and we thought we're parents. We weren't parents. We had a dog. And so listen, I just feel like children are a gift from the Lord and our culture has kind of rewritten that message that now no kids hold you back and, and kids, they're just expensive and messy and they, they rob you of your freedom and you're calling and all that stuff. And the way God designed it, for those of us who are married, I mean, if you're, if you're single and God's called you to a season or a lifetime of singleness, then by all means, like live out your life to the full the way Paul and Jesus and, and many other heroes of the faith did as a single person. For those who are married, especially younger and married and you're physically able to have kids, I think it's such a gift to you, to future generations to, I mean, it's, it's just such a gift. If you're unable to have kids, then the gift of adoption is amazing. There are kids out there that need a home, need a family and be open to that.

6:12But if you live with that mentality that kids are just going to hold us back, I think you're robbing yourself of one of the greatest blessings, the most enriching blessings that God, God has for you. And, and they also, they refine us. They, they make us a better version of ourselves. I didn't realize how selfish I was until we started having kids. Like kids will just, they will point out, like, man, I'm a selfish person. And so after four, I'm slightly less selfish. Really, I think I'm just too tired to be a selfish, but, uh, there you go. I want to brag on you. They are a gift. Listen, our youngest, Chad, um, he is 11. I can't even believe he's 11. It's crazy. Because our kids at this point in recording, they range in age from 11 to 21. So we kind of took our time having our kids. Uh, but I, you know, Dave says he's too tired, but Chad, um, he, like, he just looks up to you. I love you to death, but Chad, I'm literally thinks Dave is the bees knees. Okay. And so every day he's like, what can we do today? Can we go play pickleball dad and Dave's like, yes.

7:14Can we go swimming dad? And he's like, yes. And he's like, dad, can we go to Costco together? And he's like, well, why did you just now ask me, you know, of course, yeah. And so it's just so sweet. And, you know, of course, there's a timing issue there. But I just, I, and I know it's, I just admire Dave because it's usually not at a convenient time. We are usually tired, you know? I mean, usually, just in general, I'm tired. Um, but you do it, and kids are a gift from the Lord. They're a blessing. And, uh, and I think just live in, reminding yourself kids are a blessing and a culture that is trying to brainwash us to think there's something other than a blessing. Don't, don't listen to it. So I mean, we were on a playing this morning. I got kicked in the back, the entire flight from these little kids, but I laughed about it because I'm like, you know what? They're a blessing. Even these kids that are kicking me. Literally. I mean, honestly, I thought to myself, I said this earlier, I'm like out of all the people on this plane, you know, the parents of four boys who get it.

8:15God, you put us in front of these kids. And I thank you for it because this poor mom next to them, she was traveling by herself and a baby to you. And I thought, Lord, protect that woman. You're good. And I did, you know, I saw fellow dad helping her at the end, trying to consolidate her baggage. That just, that brings me such joy to see humanity at its best. I want to say this really quick before going on to our next topic. For those of you who are like, I just don't know if I want to have kids or maybe you're like, no, we're not doing it. I think there's no judgment here, okay? Because that's between you, your spouse and the Lord, okay? Totally. But I do want to say this really, really ask the Lord to search your heart and say, Lord, is this because of fear? Because we should never make a decision whether to do something or not do something based out of just purely fear. And I think if a couple, we knew like that they're about our age, we've served with them a church years ago, didn't want to have kids. Like, never plan to have kids. Like, no way we're having kids. And then they had an accidental pregnancy, had a son, and that son now is in college and

9:16is in the absolute light of their world. He is. I was just going to say, like, they just, I mean, are so just thrilled with how rich their life has become by having him. And they're excellent parents. I mean, it's just so sweet. Look at them and smile when I think about those people. They're like, never, never for me. I just wouldn't be a good parent or I don't want kids. And it was when they got pregnant, they were honest with us, with us and the whole group of us. We were in a small group together. And they were like, I know children are blessing, but we didn't want this. I mean, they were very honest. But through time, through that pregnancy, you know, and then through caring for this child and pouring in, I mean, they can't imagine life without them. Of course. Yes. All right. So, we're going to move on and we're pivoting here. Okay. Why forcing your spouse to live in a sexless marriage is infidelity. Yeah. And I know that that might sound like a strong word. That's a strong statement. Infidelity. And I'm the one that said that. And here's why I say that. Infidelity, the word infidelity, does not mean sexual affair with another person.

10:20Now we've taken that word and applied it mostly to a sexual affair with another person. But the word infidelity just means broken fidelity, broken trust. And I feel like it is an intimate act of broken trust to force your spouse to live in a sexless marriage when it's in your power to not be in a sexless marriage. Like you're not like somehow physically disabled where there's not an ability to have intercourse or to have any kind of sexual contact. You just simply don't want to or you don't feel like it. And so you're like, so I'm going to impose a life sentence on you to never have sex again. And there are a lot of reasons for that. And I want to be sensitive to both people here. We've talked about this in last week's episode. But for the person that's just shutting it down completely, I do feel like it's an active betrayal. It is because when we enter into our marriage vows, we enter with the promise to love, honor, serve, protect. And when you intentionally deprive your spouse of any kind of sexual contact, then you're

11:22betraying those vows to love, honor, care and protect because you're the only legitimate source of sexual contact they can have on earth. And to rob that from them is it's hurtful. It's hurtful. Well, to say the least, but I will say this. I know that for some people, you are feeling all sorts of things right now and maybe you're angry. And I want to say we see you because I know there's some circumstances where maybe your spouse was unfaithful to you. Like your spouse wouldn't have sex with another person. And you're like, well, I don't know if I want to have sex with them again. And there might be a place for there to be a time where there is no sex as you are healing because you don't need to force it. If there's been any kind of abuse, you have to be safe. But I'm talking about those situations where it's just, I just don't feel it anymore. I don't feel I don't feel I doing it. I don't feel attracted to you. Whatever it might be, but it's just, it's kind of a feelings based thing.

12:22Right. And in our culture says your feelings are your God. So whatever you're feeling, that's all the justification you need to do anything. And our feelings will lie to us sometimes to just rise above our feeling and marriage in any relationship, really in any part of life. There are times we have to rise above our feelings and kind of lead our feelings, whether it's getting up for work in the morning on days we don't feel like going or being there for our kids on the days we don't feel like doing it. Our feelings usually catch up, but we have to lead them and we do it marriage as well. And so we're, you know, just to be very clear, we're not talking about situations where there's been, you know, I'm not talking about this duty sex of just being this lifeless participant to someone who's abused you or broken your trust over and over again. You're not saying that that's okay. Those are much deeper issues that need to be healed. But I'm talking for the thousands of marriages out there where one spouse has just decided this isn't important to me anymore. I don't want to anymore. It's not going to be an option for you anymore. And that is deeply hurtful.

13:23It is. And according to Dave, an active infidelity. I stand by it. Okay. All right. Next, why rolling your eyes at your spouse is an accurate predictor of divorce. And we got this from Dr. John Gottman, an amazing brilliant researcher on marriage, an author of a great book called Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, including many other books. He's been writing marriage books longer than we've been alive, literally, and is really an authority in this space. And he has determined through his love lab, through watching couples interact, that couples who roll their eyes at each other have a very, it is a very accurate, high predictor of divorce. And that's so fascinating to me. It's also sad to me. But it's fascinating that our non-verbals are so powerful and what they communicate, how our spouse receives that communication, and what they predict. And so if you're in a place where you're rolling your eyes, where you're doing other non-verbals

14:23to just kind of shut down conversation or show this outward frustration with your spouse, that's a flashing check engine light on the dashboard of your marriage saying, we need to get help. We need to get to the root of this, whether that's talking to a counselor, talking to one of our amazing coaches here at Exo Marriage, or just doing whatever work needs to be done to get to the root of that before that eye roll turns into a divorce. It's so true. And I mean, even before we knew that stat from the Gottman's man, we've seen it. I mean, we've seen that because our body language, you know, says a lot about whether or not we love and respect our spouse. Because really, if you're rolling your eyes at your spouse with something they just said, and you're not being silly, you know what I'm saying? Like, I know sometimes people joke, but we're meaning like, this is your true reaction to whatever they said or did. It's just showing that you don't care. Like you are so sick of them, you're so done with them. And it shows what the Gottman's called contempt. Like you're just like, I don't want to have anything to do with you anymore.

15:24I don't, you know, oh, here's, here he goes again, here she goes again, you know. And so we really have to watch where our thoughts go because before the eye rolls are, there were probably negative thoughts that that person was feeding all day about their spouse. And so really, if you are in kind of a tough season and you could say, well, gosh, David Ashley, my spouse is just so annoying. It's like they are the band of my existence. I would say bring that before the Lord, say, Lord, help me, you know, and help me to understand what of this is me and my problem with how I see my spouse. And what of this is actually something that needs to be addressed. And he will reveal it to you because he wants you to have a healthy marriage. He doesn't want you to live in this, this negative space with each other. And so bring it before the Lord. So good. Yeah. All right. All right. Next one. Why empty nesters get divorced at a higher rate these days? You guys, I mean, it's happening. They call it, what, like, gray divorce, gray hair and divorce and two things that didn't normally go together in the past, but very much do now.

16:27Some of the highest trends of divorce rates are spiking at empty nesters. And I believe the reason why, and in fact, we know some of the reasons why, just from research and statistics and interviews and all these things, is that in most of these dynamics, it was a child-centered marriage, not a spouse-centered marriage. In Jimmy Evans book, The Four Laws of Love, he talks about the law of priority, how underneath your relationship with God, your marriage relationship has to always come first, your first loyalty has to always be to your spouse. And when that gets out of whack and the kids become the focus, once the kids are gone, you realize that this marriage has only existed as kind of a business arrangement of co-parenting. And there's not really a marriage at the heart of it. And sadly, they did people divorce at that age, which has a huge negative impact on adult children. You know, we, we'll talk about divorce only hurting little kids. I know tons of people who've been traumatized in adulthood by their parents getting married and it just rocks their whole world. Getting divorced. Right, getting divorced, sorry.

17:28Good catch, yeah. But it doesn't have to be that way. So yeah. Prioritize your marriage. You're probably thinking about this too. We just sat down with some of the people coming to our next marriage coaching academy, training and certification. And we always love to just hear their stories and get to know them before, before the training. And they were sharing their story this couple and, you know, the wife said that at 19 years old, she was getting married and that same year her parents who had been married a long time decided to get divorced. And she said it was absolutely devastating. It sent her into a tailspin of like, gosh, I thought, you know, she said, you know, they, she said they were all about us all the time. And they did fight, you know, I mean, married couples have arguments here and there. But she said, I really thought they were going to be married for the long haul. So it really kind of wrecked her whole worldview. But her parents, after that divorce, there was a lot of anger. Obviously, a lot of things to unpack there. But they decided to seek the Lord to just really seek the Lord. And five years later, they got remarried and they have since then been married for like

18:30at least a decade. And she said, you know, it was so devastating when they got divorced and she said, you know, as they were unpacking kind of how they got there and they were seeking the Lord, she said they realized it was a parent, I mean, a child centered home. And it was just all about the kids and they got divorced right when those kids launched. And she said, as they sought the Lord and then they started obviously trying to reconnect with each other, they realized that they had done that wrong. And she said, seeing them find their way back to each other has done so much to fortify their own marriage. And she said, now, you know, they've been married a long time too. But she said, we made sure we did not have a child centered home that it was God first, then our marriage and our spouse, then our kids and so on. And she said, and it's made all the difference in the world. And so even if right now you are child centered and you're like, oh my gosh, you like feel the Holy Spirit, you know, stepping on your toes a little bit with this, it doesn't have to stay that way. There is so much hope and change in changing this dynamic and making sure that your priorities are in line with how God has laid out our priorities, especially as married people as

19:31I just talked about. And if you need to get help, reach out to one of our exo-mediators, reach out to a local counselor in your community, but I'm telling you, don't stay doing what you're doing because it does often lead to an empty marriage and possibly a divorce. So well said my love. All right, next one is this, hard pivot. Hard pivot. Why does our culture spend so much time and money removing pubic care? When did pubic care become dirty or bad? And I think a lot of this is porn driven, especially for women. There's a societal pressure that has been perpetuated by modern porn, which, you know, I haven't. It's been many years since I had a porn struggle, but just from trying to follow trends related to porn for the work we do, we've heard that for a long time, showing women completely hairless has been the norm for a long time in porn, which has trickled over into regular culture and created pressure that women are feeling, especially to be completely hairless,

20:33not just groomed, but all of it gone. The full Brazilian, the full wax or electrolysis. And sometimes even all body here, not just pubic care, but all body here, like removing the little hairs on your arms, like removing any sign of hair anywhere on your body as if it's all dirty somehow. And so, well, I don't necessarily think it's the reason that it's dirty. I think that for some people, it's like they like smooth skin. Right, right. Yes. Like I've had friends that do like trollysis and they truly just don't want to shave their legs and then they're like, well, if you're going to take it off my legs, take it off everything, you know. And I mean, I guess if that's what you want, so be it. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. But I think if it is fueled by porn or you feel pressured by your spouse to get this done because of porn, that's where it's a bit alarming. But if it's just preferential, if you like it, I know to be very honest, I think that there's some women who like their husband to perform oral sex on them and they feel gross if there's hair down there.

21:34They want to get it Brazilian waxed or whatever. That's your prerogative, right? So I think if it's going to make you more comfortable and feel better about yourself, have at it. But if it's just to keep up with some pornographic, you know, fantasy of some kind, I mean, that's not good, right? Right. So I really it's the motive, I guess, behind it more than anything. I think that's a great distinction. And it's something we talk about a lot, kind of the difference between just preference, which God gives you a ton of freedom on your preferences with your body, with the bedroom, with all of it. And those preferences, when your choices aren't being driven by just natural preference as much as it's being pressured by sinful outside forces like pornography, whether it's in our fetishes, in the pressures we feel with our bodies, with things like pubic hair, to take a step back and say, okay, where is this preference coming from? Is this truly just a preference? Or am I responding to some kind of pressure from these counterfeit images that I've seen? Just talking through those things with your spouse, I think is important.

22:36Exactly. Exactly. Alright, last, this will be our last one for the day coming up. And this is a big one. But before we get there, just want to thank you in advance, guys, for your questions. You can always write us at nakedmarriagepodcast.com. At the end of every episode, we'll try to answer a specific question or a hot topic. And thank you, though, for sticking around for this two-part series on hot topics. We've had a lot of fun with it. Hope you have too. The last topic is this. Is permanent birth control, biblical, or things like vasectomies, or getting our tubes tied, is this biblical? And there are a lot of birth control debates within Christianity anyway. For sure. I was going to say, just among Christians a lot. Just among Christians, about, you know, temporary birth controls, like condoms are taking the pill or whatever it might be. But then it becomes a separate argument, a way to your argument when we have permanent action, even if, I mean, something like a vasectomy, which potentially can be reversed. I had an uncle that had four kids, God of Asc.

23:40They decided to get it reversed and then ended up having three more kids. And then I think you got another one. But is it wrong to do these things? Now just full disclosure, I've had a vasectomy. I know children are a gift from the Lord and my quiver is full. Four is plenty for us. And I do feel like God gives us freedom to do some family planning and to determine like, okay, how many blessings do we really want? God ultimately can veto our preferences. Oh, yeah. It's our way of saying, okay, we're going to follow, we're going to pray, but we're going to ultimately fall in line with, as we've prayed, as we've talked, what our plan, our preferences are. And if you want to come along and veto it, if you want that vasectomy not to take, we know people who exist. We know plenty of people who've done that. You're a vasectomy, baby. You know. And I know people have very strong feelings about this. And things like vasectomies did not exist, of course, in Bible times. And so sometimes it's hard to pull biblical examples to scenarios and choices that did

24:44not exist back then. But I do believe that God is a God who gives us a ton of freedom. And we have the freedom, I mean, you have the freedom to not have any children. If that's your choice, you have the freedom to have one, two, ten, whatever. If you really, you know, talk about it. And you might want to clarify what that's your choice means. Since we're talking about hot topics. All right. You know, we're not talking about abortion being okay or something like that. I just want to clarify. Yeah, no, I truly just for the record, I think any form of abortion is wrong and unbiblical to, I believe that life begins at conception and any abortive form of birth control, whether it's something like the morning after pill, plan B, which we were getting commercials for those now on what we watched. We do get a lot of commercials playing B. I don't know. We're not your market audience guys. Yeah. And so I personally believe that not only is it an abortion procedure wrong to kill a human

25:48life and child, but even abortive forms of birth control like the morning after pill that intentionally keep a fertilized egg from implanting into the uterine wall would be in its own way a form of abortion. And I just think that we have to honor the sacredness of life. But I do think that trying to time out things, whether it's the rhythm method, trying to use birth control to prevent that sperm and egg from coming together and the pull out method. Well, yeah, I mean, that's a method too. Yeah, you can do that. We're just now we're just talking about different ways of birth control. But I'm saying that's not nearly as reliable for a lot of reasons. Exactly. But a lot of forms of birth control just simply, they're just designed to kind of keep the sperm and the egg from ever meeting each other in the first place. And I think you have a lot of freedom to do that. We want to enjoy in marriage the gift of sex because sex isn't just for procreation. It's for connection. It's for pleasure. It's for oneness. It's for unity. It's all of those things. And so if you look at sex, it's only a form of procreation than you're missing out.

26:52So I do think we have a lot of freedom. I feel like these are really big and important decisions that couples need to weigh, talk about, pray about and find unity on. And if you make a decision and then later change your mind, then hopefully that it's something that can be reversed. Like with the sexual misdeeds tied. Or maybe not change your mind though if you get a hysterectomy, guys. And that's usually not like to prevent, you know, having babies. That's usually because like I had to have one a couple of years ago. There's medical reasons for that. And if you have medical reasons why you can't have children or more children and God puts on your heart for more children, I think any desire God gives us that's a holy desire is when he means to fulfill. And maybe that's your cue to be open to fostering or open to adopting a child who needs a home. I think those are very beautiful things. But yeah, just pray through these things. And I know. And follow the Lord's leading. And I know people have deep, strongly, purely held convictions that say these things are

27:53wrong in all circumstances. And yeah, you are totally entitled to that. And I respect those beliefs. Absolutely. And so, you know, we can disagree and still be friends. And so thank you for that. Thank you for being part of this podcast community, guys. You can go to this ministry's website xomarriage.com and stay up to date on all the things that are happening. We got a lot of great free resources for you there. And including many of our video courses are now free at xomarriage.com. So check that out. If you want to support this ministry, there are also ways that you can give there to support the great work that's happening here. And guys, we can't wait to see you here next week. God bless. See you next time.