Hornets: A Top-10 Future Team?

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1:28Welcome in Buzzbeat listeners. Joining me in this week's episode is Brian Geissinger and Brian, we have made it. The off season. This is the last off season podcast. Next week we have media day, training camp, preseason, the regular season. This is it. We've made it all way here. It's been a long, not as long as normal, but it's been a long off season. But today we're going to be talking brand new Miller extension talk. Trade rumors. In September, Dorian Finney Smith, Sabonis and Law also looking at ESPN's future power rankings. So that is the track record today. Brian, how are you and are you looking forward to training camp opening next week? Yeah. The training camp opening up is very high on my own future basketball rankings too. So very much looking forward to that coming back and just sort of the excitement of a new season. And really I think when some of the story lines for the upcoming season start to after the sort of like fog of summer post sort of like mid late July, you get to sort of like

2:32resettle back into your mind and you get to think about things again too. So very excited for training camp. It's been a process of applying for credentials for some of the college teams here in the area in North Carolina too. So yeah, it is the basketball season is nearly upon us, which is very exciting. It is nearly upon us and that also means Brandon Miller's deadline for signing a rookie extension is almost upon us a couple of developments I would say since she's I've spoken about this and we've spoken about this a couple of times over this off season, right? I even think maybe during the mock off season show, I negotiated with you like a maybe was that five year one 90. I think was that what we it was. It was actually looked this up in preparation. It was five years one eighty five. But James, you're such a savvy negotiator. You were Brandon Miller's representation going up against Matt and I as the front office. You were able to negotiate a fifth year player option on that deal, but we did get five for

3:34one eighty five. We were happy to get it under the one ninety mark and get that get that off the you know the forty you know forty million sort of like average annual numbers to and we were all of the thinking if I recall like we were thinking probably more likely an extension wouldn't happen than word because of some of the injury stuff and seeing Miller in a new role and missing this off season like it just kind of felt like we're really going to go splurge now. However, there's been developments. Okay, Amen Thompson five years two hundred and eight million thirty five million year one starting salary. Kante George, 157 million with a twenty seven million per year starting salary and a star Thompson a hundred and fifty five million with a twenty six million per year starting salary. Those are ones that have come and already and it really sounds like there's some momentum here for Charlotte. I think Sham's has said that the hornets are an inactive conversations regarding a contract extension and he said initially before this our Thompson deal.

4:37I would look at both Brandon Miller and Osar Thompson to have more and more conversations with their respective teams in the upcoming days and weeks. I think that was after the Amen and maybe after the Kante George deal. Osar Thompson then came in. Brandon Miller is yet to. I heard Brian Winhorse say on his podcast of the day I quote there's a very good chance Brandon Miller is going to get an extension. I think they're committed to getting a deal done. Part of why they traded the Mellow was to get off the money to make sure they can pay Brandon Miller. Those are two very plugged in people who are not saying they're going to do it but when you start hearing things like there's a very good chance and they're in inactive conversations that normally means like I reading between the lines this positive momentum here from people inside the Lee thinking that this is going to get done. Yeah, I mean I've been sort of cautiously optimistic that I thought this could could get done throughout the off season.

5:37Just given all these sort of like seismic pieces that happen in terms of roster construction the Lamello trade, the Miles Bridgestrade, the night of the draft. I mean that was a busy stretch of time. You've really like the Hornets front office has really like reset the books by moving Lamello's deal into to Minnesota and right now they're going to build this up around Con and Brandon for the time being Brandon is sort of the one that's next up in the queue potentially for a big deal. And I think there are benefits to both parties to get this done without having to shake this into restricted free agency. I think both sides wrapped especially Brandon Miller side. Just given how some of these other restricted free agency cases have played out or currently playing out with Jalen Duren. This is something that would make sense for him to lock in for a guy who's also missed time with injuries and stuff like that for him to potentially lock in to more money

6:39than he's ever seen before in his entire life. And for the Hornets to lock up but you know potentially a cornerstone type player. But as like certainly there is smoke you just reference all these different league insiders that are very well plugged in with agencies as well. Nothing's done until it's you know the terms are agreed to and things have been signed. So I will continue to be cautiously optimistic and I have found some of these recent reports to be encouraging. You can maybe quip over the dollar amounts and maybe that's something we can get into. Like whether you know Brandon Miller is deserving of a $200 million contract. But ultimately he's a good player. And the Hornets should be in the business of retaining players like that and finding ways to make it work for both team and player. Yeah. So let's get into the numbers. We talked about some of those other extension figures we've seen come in.

7:40I was you know on X with Owen Watson from Hornets on SI. And I think I bet him a virtual stake dinner that the Miller extension number will be closer to Aemon Thompson which is that kind of 208 million figures and that's starting at 35 million per year versus Kante George which is starting at 27 million per year. Where would you if we were making this a three way evening meal for this virtual stake dinner or which side of the table you sitting on Brian? I think I'm closer to you in the Thompson. It just feels like that 200 million number is the sort of like the benchmark to being that whether it's 201 203 205 you know something in 208 somewhere in that that type of range. I think I'm closer to that. My hope would be that Charlotte would be able to get it to closer to where we landed in our own mock off season a couple of months ago which was in the upper one eighties you know that was five years 185 with a you know average annual salary of 37 and a half which was

8:46very similar as Matt noted in that episode to what the rockets gave Alper and Chinchingune in October 2024. I think the Hornets have some tools at their disposal from a leverage standpoint to try to like you know get that number to a place that they feel gives them maybe a little bit more sort of like wiggle room down the line. We've talked about Miller's injury histories and it's 68 games over the last two seasons. He's dealing with the shoulder injury this off season and then as I noted a minute ago the hammer and the threat of restricted for agency a year from now. But in the way in terms of the sort of like spectrum you're laying out I think it'll be closer to that 200 sort of 200 million dollar benchmark. And the other thing that I think could happen and I agree with you I think that 185 figure like after these numbers have come out still age is pretty well to me. Look at that like that kind of feels about right maybe.

9:47Yeah. I think the per year number is what a lot of people look at. I'm also interested in the structure because the Hornets have been very prudent giving out declining deals. You know they've not just given out a bit bigger sending deals whenever and I don't think if I'm running Miller I sign a declining deal. But do I like can you pay more per year but give them it flat and would that benefit you in the long run rather than doing the kind of was that the 8% escalators every season something of that nature. So I wonder if they you know get a little bit of value back maybe not in the per annum stuff but then far out by trying to do it some way by making it flat early because the Horn is going to fall to pay Brandy Miller right now. Yeah. You could get a little bit tricky when you got conquered if all on his rookie extension maybe trade for max level player and then like every three or four or five million at that point might be might be helpful for you. So that's something else. There's also the idea of incentives which used to be a good way to bridge the gap in valuation

10:48gaps. But the problem with incentives now is they count against the cat whereas incentives used to not do so. So but like the Hornets aren't going to be pressing up against any first eight prins or second eight prins at least this season. So it's potentially something they could look to try and do if they wanted to put in some injury prevention stuff. I think Kionte George maybe had some incentives in his mishearrys of contract. But it'll be interesting. I think the new deadline now is the kind of 29th of September 28th. That's immediate day. Do you really want Brandy Miller you know the staff people asking about is your extension or those talks been like do you want that to be a store in a distraction heading into training camps start number 29th. That's why I think you see this flurry of deals getting done now before that training camp starts because it's just it can just drag and be overbearing on your whole immediate day training camp. But the Hornets don't have the most aggressive media market. I don't think Brandy Miller and the staff are going to get ten questions and immediate

11:52day. But it would sure make everyone feel better and have some more positive vibes if that was done before a ball gets bounced. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, James is you were sort of perhaps just pointing out to the hometown newspaper does you have a beat reporter to cover the team now. Thanks to McClatchee in their cost cutting measures in annual tradition in the media space. But yeah, it's one of those things to where beauty day comes up in about a week from now. Preseason starts long long after that. And then that's going to go by quickly. The regular season is going to get here soon. We're basically four weeks out from the start of the in like I remember us kicking the can on Miller's extension in June or July or whatever and thinking well, the Hornets have so much time to think about all the time the world to figure this out. And they've got plenty of time. This is not like a huge rush at the moment necessarily. But the last two months went by very quickly.

12:54And so you sort of, you know, the majority of time that you had the sort of like hammer this out is gone and in the past. And stuff is going faster now just because there's like actual stuff happening in Charlotte with the team being involved on the Buzzbeat plus sub stack McClatchee who's been a long time Hornets consumer do both in both on and the sub's X space would certainly online where he's an excellent follow often talking about the salary cap. He filled an idea in the comments of Richie's Richie Randall publishing article about the Miller extension. Where Richie also predicted that they would it would land at five years 201 million. McLeese mentioned was using incentives below the 25% max base to make it 25% max basically if all of the incentives were earns like unlikely bonuses.

13:56Those are capped at 15% of the base salary in order to reach the 25% of the cap after earning them the base salary has to be about 21.7.4% of the cap which is about 38 million with the current like projected salary number. So the team wants to give a player a maximum potential payout of 25% of the cap wants to keep as much room of their media cap sheet as possible. You know, they build in these 15% you know, unlikely incentives. So there are some other ways to maybe get it like a little bit creative with this too. From like from like a mathematics perspective. But in a way that would again allow them to have some short term fluidity. It may be give Miller time to develop into more of a sort of like a certainly max type player. So yeah, there's some cards to play for the Hornings and for Miller's representation as they're sort of like nearing the deadline to hammer this out. And I know as close you get to the deadline and other deals start to happen.

15:00I just think the humor action to be is to be like, well, well, I hope the Hornets and Miller make a deal happen right? You're going to be missing out on the party. But I still come from this line of thinking like sign a rookie extension. If you're one if they're either like the franchise, the max player in a case like Victor and Benyama and it's like you, you have to do what you need to do to make that guy feel respected, happy, etc. I don't think Brandon Miller's at the level. The other one is if you're getting a good deal, like you have to, there has to be some benefit of you to giving out a contract a year in advance, essentially. And that's why like I still think Brandon Miller could be worth 200 million. I just would want to wait till next summer to do it rather than and like that's not including the human impact of like how would that make him feel and how do you deal that throughout the year. So I still draw the line at like 1.85, 1.90, I struggled to get past that without thinking. I think I'd just rather wait.

16:02And if he blows up and has a great year, then at least you've got that level of certainty in a non-Lemello ecosystem that he's going to come in. That honestly to me feels like the, you're basically just like splitting the difference between the Kianti George and the, you know, Imen Thompson deals. And there would just be a bit of like an injury tax on Brandon. For a guy who's missed a lot of time, the last two seasons. And is also even when healthy as good as he's been is sort of like not at the stature of players, certainly of like a, you know, like a Wemben, Wemben Yamat type or anything like that, just absolutely. And even Victor could have taken more money from San Antonio. I mean, you know, he basically settled in at the 25% max. Like he could have gone in for a larger number as well too. So maybe even Brandon sort of sees the sort of like team building benefits of doing that. Now like I'm in the business of asking guys to take discounts, but I'm with you.

17:03I think if they could land in that sort of like in between, you know, 180 to 190 range, that would be a really good, really good pickup for both sides and again for Brandon. It's still an unbelievable amount of money. You need to enter unrestricted free and see, you know, smacked app in the prime of your career. You could make another $200 million, you know, deal after that or more. And that 38 million per year, which is basically 190 over five years. If you were to look at year five of that and then look to do a veteran extension, that would bring you up to around, if it was a flat deal, that would bring you to around 53 million. Now the max projected in that year, which I think is what 2032 is 61 million. So what you're basically saying there is like you could not extend Brandon Miller to be a max player if it was flat. Now if it was ascending with those escalators, I think you'd probably get there. I think you could probably actually extend them to be a max player.

18:03And that's what I would be arguing the agent like, hey, if this guy hits, you want to be able to keep him here. You don't want him to have to hit free agency to be able to get paid the full way. So maybe that is a reason why you have those escalators on if it comes in around that figure because it just gives you that flexibility to be able to to read sign them of that max. But just interesting looking forward at what the extensions are, what could the max be. Yeah, it's all all difficult, it's all hard to project, but you can get some idea. Definitely. The devil, the devil will be in the details with this deal, you know, assuming it gets done in the next couple of weeks here. Yeah. All right. So I think we're both feeling like we think this is probably going to happen and we think in the 180 to 190 range. All right. Well, we will see. Well, I think we might have an accident by the time I do a sub-sode next week. And we will have to see. Imagine buying your kid a toy only to find the batteries aren't included or buy in furniture,

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20:06Jake Fisher reported on the Markstein sub stack of the day that the Hornets and the Hawks have discussed a deal of swapping Darian Finney Smith and Buddy Heald. The difference between those both guys are on fully guaranteed contract for this year. Darian Finney Smith is making about 14 million, but he'll making around nine and a half. As a reminder, Darian Finney Smith is non-guaranteed all of his counts salary for next year. Whereas Buddy Heald, I think, has guaranteed 3 million of his salary. So I'll be honest, Brian, it's not often I see a rumor with the Hornets and I scratch my head just being like, I can't even understand what the motivation would be in this. The only thing I can assume is like a second round pick might come back with Buddy Heald in return for Darian Finney Smith. And if that's the case, then you're essentially eating three mil off your off-season cap next summer to get a second round pick, which is probably about the cost of it in many ways.

21:09But the actual idea of Buddy Heald for Dodo with the existing roster cruncher already is with the skill sets on the roster, I don't know if I'm just missing something, but I don't really see it. Yeah, especially for a team that is so well stocked, they have second round picks out the one. In the next seven years. So it's a lot. So picking up another, even if it could be projected to be a good or a high second round pick, how much value is there in that? I know DFS had a tough season last year coming off the ankle surgery. I think that if he were to make the roster, I think some idealized version of him could actually be quite helpful for Charlotte. At this point, we're unsure if he's totally cooked, not as a player. I think Fisher also said that an earlier version of this deal that they discussed included Devon Carter, but then the Hawks waved him earlier this month and he is subsequently signed with Boston.

22:10I don't know where you were on Carter in the 2024 draft. I actually liked him quite a bit. I know his NBA career has not really took off. That is something that would have made me a little bit intrigued, but as you sort of noted, even with the roster crunch, it's like, you know, how much is that? How much is adding a young, fringy NBA player with maybe some upside worth of doing at this point? I do think, I mean, Buddy Heild is one of the best shooters in the history of basketball. I think he would be a really good fit in Charlotte's like guard guard screening sets. I think he could help guys like Kobe White. I think he could help a Brandon Miller to help those guys kind of like turn the corner get downhill. Or to even, this trade goes through if he even makes the roster or maybe you think you can flip Heild down the line in some way, shape or form. I'd be curious to know how much trade value he, you know, or even appeal he would even have. My guess is probably not that much given the sort of like value prop of this deal.

23:12So yeah, this to me was a bit of a head scratcher. I see the outline of it and I could see some of the justification. It's like a cheap or sort of like, you know, a second round pick right at market value for a player that maybe wasn't going to make the roster to begin with. So again, I see some value here, but it, yeah, I, but I also don't know what else they would do with Dory and Finney Smith. So it seems like not a bad place to like spin your wheels and see what, you know, his, his value is, is like a, as a contract that, you know, your teams can, you know, at partially guaranteed in the future and can, can give save some money. So yeah, bit of a head scratcher. And I'm not sure if I see this one coming to two fruition for either side here. I just think if you keep Finney Smith or trade him for another player, who are you cutting? It's the question I just come back to, right? If you need to cut two players, Connison is an easy one.

24:13Finney Smith is the other one. If it's not Finney Smith, then what is it? Are you declining Tijon Salons for the option and just cutting him it just before year three? Is that like the type of thing you're doing? I can't think of anyone else who could be on the, on the chopping block like everyone else is either a young player or is going to be in the rotation this year and have like have need or is like a veteran leadership guy for the team or uncomplier as well and like Grant Williams. But it is clear they are seem to be shopping Finney Smith around and maybe that's why he's not been waived yet. And we know last year they had a kind of traditional training camp battle, which didn't really happen very often in the NBA these days. And maybe that, maybe they liked the competitive atmosphere that had and maybe that's the plan with Dorian Finney Smith again. Yeah, it's clear they are obviously shopping him around a little bit, which makes sense because the path, even though the old version of DoDo in Charlotte could actually help and have value in the trade market, I just don't quite see his path for minutes and you

25:16have to be making a decision to get rid of someone who is going to be probably useful or hold some value to you to have to see if there is any value left in Finney Smith. And that carries some risk. Yeah, I think only they just they have a few, few more weeks to think about it. You know, they don't have to name opening night roster for a few more weeks from now. And I guess in the meantime, it doesn't hurt to just take calls and you know, shop a contract like this around and see what you might be able to get for it. But I think even for a deal hypothetical that I think in another sort of context would be sort of like an easy push button and get deal done for both sides. I think once you start to think about the roster crunch in Charlotte, it just begins to make less and less sense as a hypothetical. Yeah. All right, let's move on to the trade rumor. Demons of Sabonis, we're going there again. It's becoming the new miles turner. Jake Fisher said recently, I think it was an obliter report live stream.

26:19I do think interest on the Hornets is still generally there. And I'm paraphrasing on this bit, the Hornets won't meet the King's asking price and that they don't want to park that the Kings were looking for the Hornets to be part ways with draft picks. And the Hornets didn't want to do that. But Charlotte are still a team to monitor. Which kind of suggests is that look, we're not going to be trading you first round picks to acquire Sabonis. But if you're looking to salary dump Sabonis because he's being a malcontent in your team because you want an extension and you just want to get more cat flexibility in the summer of 27, give us a call. We might be interested in that. Again, I thought this made more sense when Nazaried was on the team, like too kind of like big, unethetic, defensively lumbering guys, like sharing the front core. I mean, you'd really be putting a test to Charles Lee's defensive system, which is very team-oriented with those two playing like PowerFord and Centre. Yeah, Sabonis would help with the physicality issues that we've talked about previously

27:21with the Hornets, some of his like ball handling of D.H.O., some of offensive rebounding. I can see the fit in some ways. And I can also see it being really clunky. And he also needs an extension, right? This is one of the reasons he wants to get traded. And he's making 45 per year already. I just don't know what are you having to spend to retain Sabonis and Charlotte after a trade. You and the biggest on the Sabonis trade pre, when Lamella was here, the pre-trade deadline. Now the team in Roch looks a little bit different. Are you more open to it or even more close off? More close off, I would say. Most of which just goes back to some of Sabonis' quirks as a player. He is, throughout his entirety of his career, basically since he landed in Indiana, you've seen teams try to build around him differently. There's certainly an irony in him becoming the new Miles Turner, given the partnership

28:24those guys had as the jumbo front court for the Pacers for several years. I could see some of the appeal with Sabonis, even post Lamella because Charlotte is maybe just looking for one more person to initiate offense. If they could get him at a relatively cheap price, and I'm pleased to see that they're negotiating from a position of strength and they're willing to take him on. If it sort of comes more as a salary dump as opposed to them actually sending out assets like that is reassuring and good to see, I do think Sabonis could really help with guys like Brandon Miller and Conn Kinnippel. I would get those guys open. His work as a handoff hub and a handoff tower in the middle of those five out actions. I think when Mike Brown had Sacramento running a couple of seasons ago, I do think the handoff looks inflated.

29:26Some of the playmaking numbers of Sabonis just like to assist Ross, his percentage metric. Do you think he gives you some passing and some playmaking can certainly help guys get open? And just given the strengths but also a limitations of guys like Conn and Brandon who are good at playing off of advantage coming out of handoff actions and sum actions. You could see those guys really benefiting from playing with Sabonis. But just the fit defensively is tough to consider. And unless you're able to just bring him in for little or you're able to maybe even pick up some assets in return if it was like a full on dump, I could get around on that. But ultimately I think Charlotte has to like where they have their roster and where they have their center rotation currently. Like Diabate is best case maybe isn't as like a long-term starter but he's absolutely

30:30capable of being a quality center starting on a night to night basis. Being scheme versatility, Diabate man in the pick and roll call runners fine as a backup and spot starter and he just fits where the team is in terms of development. Steinbach likely is in the full time center as you and I have talked about plenty this summer James. But he's certainly like another option at that position and just from like a pure talent perspective. He really like boosts I think Charlotte in terms of their options in this position group. And now you've got Grant Williams healthy from day one which means you've got a little bit more small ball equity than you did you had until probably halfway through last season. So just like I feel good about where the center position is from like a talent and scheme perspective right now. And unless you can find some way where subonus is almost purely additive that I'm not in any rush to bring to bring him in the door here. Yeah. If I give you the trade off let's say the King's just want a clear space right.

31:32You do Grayson Allen, Finnie Smith and Tijon Salon for subonus. And then let's say because I think if you're trading for subonus giving an extension let's say they tag on he's got two years 45 million left. Let's say you tag on an extra two years 70 million. So it you know it'll be 35 million per year for the last two years of that deal dropping down from 45. Are you pulling the trigger on that even though the cost the cost of the Hornets is basically nothing in some some cap space? I still don't think I don't know if I want to be the team that's extending subonus. I agree. I guess even even if it's coming with the discount. Just two extra years on top of everything and I know maybe three years from now 35 million assuming the cap continues to climb. Even if it's at a rate maybe a little bit lower than some of the initial projections. But I just for a guy that's going to be in his like you know approaching his mid 30s

32:33at that point coming off of a big injury we still don't know what he what he is like what he's made of at this point. I would be there's there's a fair amount of like downside risk there. Yeah. And I think I'd be happy to let someone else take the chance on that and just keep my powder dry. I think everything we've seen this off season is the Hornets are trying to raise the championship ceiling of this franchise. I just think getting in a position where you're paying subonus long term like if you if you extended subonus to that and let's say the extend Miller you'd have subonus Miller and Nazaried making 50% of the salary cap for like the next three or four years. And that just doesn't feel like a championship playoff winning formula to me. I know I know obviously you can move one of those guys and everything like that. It just it just does not feel clean fit to me. So it may be different if the Hornets kind of traded the Mello or were bottening out

33:35this year and were like were talentless and you just like hey let's add a guy who's clearly got talent and you know we can maybe build around him for a little bit and it makes the lives easier of all our other young rookies coming in. But I just don't think the Hornets are quite in that place. I think they're kind of past that point. So I'm with you. I don't quite see it. I'm wondering if these room is going to continue or maybe they're just like a sea room is really from the off season. Yeah, again, I see some ways that he could I think really help Charlotte out offensively. But at the numbers the financials were talking about the opportunity cost. Yeah. Plus his limitations defensively. It's just yeah, I don't it's again, he's a good player. I hope he has a bounce back season this year. I've liked watching him over the years, but I just don't I don't want to be in the business of throwing out that kind of that kind of deal to. So bonus, if if you're a team like Charlotte, you're negotiating from a point of strength

34:40and you're with a team that is certainly not negotiating from point of strength, the kings. And we're trying to shop really they're like only tradable asset at the moment, like realistically, that's the thing. I mean, they like to think it is like he's an asset in distress at best. And so like why why if you're the hornets, why would you be in the business of giving up real capital in return. And then also on the back end, signing up for yeah, $70 million or whatever the number might be over two more seasons of basketball. The one thing I will say and this would be the last thing I say on this. We criticize the hornets like a physicality for years and lamented it in the plane opportunity and said they have to address it. He would address that like that is probably like number one thing like you may not see it on the basketball court every night, but I can tell you people play against and feel it. He is a tough physical strong guy who is not the biggest, not the most athletic, but he

35:43will bruise you and make it feel every single night. And that is something the hornets haven't really had. And I think that would have some value. I again, it's just the other issues that we talked about, but we sometimes we, you know, I can understand if it's simply like we've got to get more physical, you had now's read and subonus in your front court, like that's ticking your box. Like that is going to get you more physical guys. You can move guys and offends. Okay, let's do future power rankings. ESPN do this every September. And if I kind of taught you through a little bit of how they formula is it, this is looking at the next three years of the NBA, they power rank all 30 NBA teams. They grade each franchise in I think four or five different categories, players, management, draft, money and market. And so you're aware players counts for 60% of their grade, management, draft and money all count for around 12% each. And then market counts for 5%.

36:44Interesting this year, Charlotte, the biggest climbers of any team in the future power rankings went from 23rd to 7th. Their players were ranked 17th. Their management was ranked 6th. Their draft was ranked 2nd. Their money was ranked 3rd. And the market size ranked 22nd. What was your reaction when you saw this meteoric rise from Charlotte up to 7? I think it speaks to the fact that they were probably won a little undervalued a season ago. I feel like I'm sure we talked about this last September and I think having Charlotte at a position where they were outside the top 20. They've made some serious moves over the last 12 months and certainly Conn Canippell showed himself to be an excellent young player. I could see why they would have this sort of sizeable climb. But it probably speaks to the fact they were a little undervalued a season ago too.

37:45Just for it to have that big of a jump for a team that didn't make the playoffs. But it makes sense for them to be where they are. We talk about it all the time on this podcast. And how this is truly like foreign territory for the Hornets from a development standpoint, from a team build, from roster construction, from asset management. It is night and day compared to the previous model. And I think even within those confines, they have done a, they have sought out good deals. They have found places where they could insert themselves to pick up extra assets. They have swung big with some trades. The Lamello deal was seismic, creating the largest traded player exception in league history. I think they drafted not perfectly, but I think they drafted well in getting Conn at four was a great pick last year. We'll see. It was Steinbach in Christian Anderson.

38:46But ultimately I feel, I certainly feel good about Steinbach coming into the season. So they're set up to either find like the next piece in the draft, you know, the next couple of years, or they are armed to make a deal to get a headline type player that could come in and really raise the profile and ceiling a team. And ultimately I feel like that's what these rankings are sort of grading out. You know, how positioned are you to win in the next couple of years? It's your optionality. And I think the hornets aren't ready to win quite yet, but I think they are going to be sooner rather than later and they have the tools at their disposal to get there. No guarantee that it'll happen, but they are set up well. And a lot of that is basically like a two to three year process of them just like putting together a slew of I think pretty heavy deals. My first reaction when I saw it was probably a little bit different to you.

39:47I think they're too high. Like I think seventh is if we're talking about the next three years, next three, I think Tim Maughan on the podcast said like, will the hornets even win a playoff series the next three years? And I was like, do I know would I want to put money on that right now? I don't know. I would not. Yeah, I don't know if I do. I would not. And if it's the next three years we're measuring and there's a team not going to win the playoff series, can you be seventh? And sometimes I wonder if this is a little bit like the waiting. I think market should be bigger than 5%. Like, Janis is going to Miami. Why did it? Why? Because he was signed extension there. Luca to LA. Why would they trade for him to take the risk when he's going to be a fragient because it's LA. So I think I think market should be higher. I also think your current players right now should probably be worth a bit more than like drafting money for the next three years when you've got a lot of people locked in. And I just didn't agree actually the player ranking was my biggest issue.

40:50Having the 17th best score for players in the league, I think they had Utah 20th. And I just think I'd take Utah like Larry Markin in, Jaron Jackson, Jr. Darren Peterson, QIOTA George. Can't take George. Can't take George. Like, I think they've got, you know, three, well, two and a half all stars there. And they literally have it at minimum. They have two all stars. And a two overall pick. And you know, good draft assets and other interesting young players. They have Golden State 22nd, Washington 23rd. This might be a hot take, but I actually think, I don't think Washington's going anywhere like long term. I think in the next three years, Washington have kind of like gone all in on being in like an average, maybe a play in team next three years. They might achieve that. They might actually have more postseason success than Charlotte. I'm higher on Washington than most people I realize. Dallas 18 is interesting. So one swap behind Charlotte because it's basically Cooper Flag.

41:53It's Cooper Flag worth more than Conn Canippell and Brandy Miller combined. And in the history of the NBA, you probably say if you can get one of those guys, which we think Cooper Flag is, you probably say yes. So that's where I'd probably look. I would have I'd have the player ranking a little bit lower than 17th. Yeah. I, it's a fair point, honestly, that feels for a roster that has currently no all stars on it. You know, the highest paid guys are Nasr reading Kobe White. I like the Hornets roster. I do. But yeah, having it be above someone like you taught me, maybe this is cherry picking a little bit, but that feels a little off, honestly. If it was the next six years, I get it. Like, I think it's a no brainer. But it's just the next three. I just like, even if you draft some of these guys or make these moves, I just think it's going to take some time for that to bed in.

42:54And if it was next six years, I might argue they should be like top five. I just think the next three is this one. I mean, they're not being rejected to be a playoff team this year. So you can kind of almost rule this one out. Yeah, fair enough. And it's like, it's not, it's like they need to do something. I think to even go up a level to become a team. I just don't think they can just like let the, just let things marinate for 12 months, run it back and, you know, expect that they're just going to be like a six seed next year or whatever. They've got to do serious things to this roster in terms of like finding a star, you know, whether it's through the draft or through a trade that's going to jump them up a level or two. So, now I'm with you. I'm with you on that. I think it's worth like the markets, the market factor thing is kind of interesting. And I feel like even in the new CBA that sort of takes on like a different value to an

43:59extent, just in terms of like attracting most likely stars and being able to sort of like pay them what you want. You know, things are much more restricted now. Does that sort of like flatten things out a little bit from like a market perspective? But ultimately, as you just noted, like there are still going to be superstars like, Janis, that can pick and choose whether, you know, whether where they're going. He wanted to be East Coast and he really wanted to be, I mean, maybe he was in New York initially. And it became Miami or whatever. So I think there's always going to be some of that in some places just like Miami, while it's still above water. Yes, will be like a profile destination in the NBA similar to a place like Los Angeles. So, but I think I would think like Charlotte, you know, from like a market perspective, that's kind of about where I would put them. Like it is warm. It's in like it's a growing city. Like I could see, I could see that market having like some upside to potentially, you know,

45:02down down the line too. But yeah, for the time being, that feels, feels, feels about right. And if you could swap like the, if you could put the Boston Celtics winning tradition and history in Charlotte, I think it would change. But it's just because every single player, no matter like what age or what that anyone that the Hornets have never really been relevant in that player's life. And it's, you know, we hear the jokes and podcasts all the time by players about, you know, playing in Charlotte. And look, that that won't, that's not going to change until they actually make some noise. Like I know they had a nice second half to regular season. Like, but let's be real. People aren't going to remember that in two years time unless you're a show hornets fan. You remember winning playoff series. You remember those major moments. And, and that's not going to change until, but like you say, everyone, there's a lot of there's got the potential in terms of like it's a good place to live. It's got climate. It's not like too much pressure as a market like in some places.

46:04It has got things going for absolutely. Nice city diverse growing like again, climate could be better, but it's pretty good. Like it's, it's not a bad place to be if you have like the right infrastructure in place to make it a destination because as you were just sort of noting, they don't have the tradition. You know, like, you know, how many times can we walk? Like, actually, a lot of morning game winner against the the Boston Celtics in playoffs. Like the, or the, the miracle after midnight, it's just there's not a ton of lower other than like the uniforms and stuff like that. But I would hope that that if you like that feels like an opportunity too. It's like you could, you could be the first generation that the starts to actually like pen those kinds of things if, if all goes well. And in some of that is, you know, the opportunity, these sort of opportunity things. Maybe they're not baked into the future power rankings, but it's certainly like another way to provide like, you know, added, you know, context to it. I think the Cleveland Toronto, Indiana and Minnesota must all be looking at these future

47:09power rankings being what? We're all in for the next three years and we're underneath Charlotte. Like, Minnesota finished 14th. So some of these things, it just feels like those teams which are all kind of like they've all made win now, real win now moves in the last six to 12 months. And they're just, and they've all got like good playoff equity, I would say. And they're all just behind Charlotte. So I think we should, they should probably be in like a 12 range 11 12, something of that nature, probably behind that kind of group of teams. That's fair. Yeah, that's fair. I think, yeah, again, to your point, if you like extrapolate the scope and make this sort of like a longer term projection, then Charlotte's ranking probably makes a little bit more sense. But also that probably moved, maybe that even moves down some of the teams that are, you know, currently ahead of them or in their, their neighborhood too. I think it's probably worth pointing out not knowing exactly how the formula and the number sort of like work for this. I do think there is, this has been talked about ad nauseam, but like, I think there's inherent

48:12bias, even with like intelligent people that cover the league. And I'm probably, I'm not even saying like, I'm not guilty of this, but just sort of tending to like over, not overrate, but really put a lot of value in teams that have like optionality and like future picks versus teams that are in like very obvious win-now mode with like expensive star players. Like, I'm not totally surprised that like NBA types are like low on the Cavaliers, you know, like that or like a little bit lower than the Cavaliers, just given the sort of like top end salary nature of their team with James Hardin included in that too. I just think there, I think there are some biases in this, in this ranking too. I guess is something that is, is maybe worth pointing out. Okay. That brings us to the end of that conversation. We got, we got a little bit of time left. I'm going to throw something unscripted at you of the question on because I wrote about

49:14it this week for BuzzBeat. Where are you out with T-Jones Salon, Brian? Okay. It's fourth year, rookie option decision time, 10 million. You know, if you're sitting on the Hornets front office right now, keep in mind you'll get to see training camp and some of preseason. Where are you leaning right now with that T-Jones Salon fourth year option? I'm leaning towards picking it up, but I am worried, sort of like intermediate to long-term about him for a variety of reasons. It's harder to see like a pathway to playing time this year. Yeah. Nas Reed, Grant Williams, Hans Steinbeck, I doubt Dory and Finney Smith, but maybe Dory Finney. It's like I see the need for there to be sort of like a athletic, like stretchy two-way forward on the team, but it seems hard to find a like obvious pathway to points.

50:16I think T-Jones so showed some nice growth last season. We talked about it throughout the year, but it is one of those things that over the course of the long off season as sort of some of the memories I think from some of his, not even like highlight plays, but just from some of his like good stretches of like two-way action as those started to like fade and atrophy a little bit in my mind that sort of like my outlook for him in Charlotte specifically is clouded at the moment. I'm long-term, I'm not sure where he fits in, but I think it's worth. He's still 22 years old, 23. I still want him like back in the door and you know fingers crossed that he pops, but I'm I'm thinking long-term that there's more likely that this guy settling in to be like a back end of the rotation type player and assuming that is sort of like his long-term outlook

51:18than like he's destined to be more journeyman and then he is to be some sort of like established rotation player. Yeah, as I wrote my piece, I kind of flipped on it as I was working on it and writing through it and I think I just landed in the case where I was like if you know that I just think I just don't know if I do it, I don't know if I would do it unless I saw something this training camp in this preseason where I'm like oh no, he's taken a jump. I just think 10 million for that fourth year when you've got a bunch of first round picks coming up this offseason, future roster crunch. There's there's other you know there's you just traded for a guy at that position who is young enough to be part of your future. I think that would just clinch it for me that I would lean against not doing it. But I can completely understand if they if they did why they would. He's just not really been an NBA player like a useful positive net positive NBA player at any point yet two years in and it's just really hard to make the decision now.

52:23I'm like that fourth year option man. It's just it's really tricky. And like some league this year was some of the defense I thought was definitely better really improved the on board defense especially. I thought like the rest of the game just kind of like you could have told me it's from the year before and I would have believed you. It's a really tricky one that I'm resting with and I either know he was super young when he came in the NBA, youngest player in the NBA. I think he's only he's basically the same age as Braden Burries right now which is crazy to think. But you've thrown he buys you time for so long and you've got to get better quickly and because he was so raw when he came in he had to get a lot better quickly. And I don't think the pace of development is probably being quite where well where anyone would expect it to be for the sixth overall pick. Considering he was such a fast riser in that draft year you'd hope he would have carried on that trajectory and it is just it is just slowed a fair deal even though they say it

53:26has been growth but there needs to be a lot more. And like you say I don't know what it's path to playing time is and they're not in the position where they can just gift playing time to someone like T-John at this point either. It's not like the rebuilding and it's just hey that's just played the young guys. So I'm kind of cautiously watching this one. It would be a shame for T-John personally for that to have that to happen and it might lead to a divorce pretty quickly if it does. Yeah, absolutely. For a guy that's a former top 10 pick and granted he was a bit of a reach but of a stretch when they when they took him there in 2024. You know, it's not a great sign of those guys are playing in summer league for the third year in a row and when they're doing that they're sort of like not obviously like the best player one of the best players on the court. I know he didn't play a lot out in Vegas this year but I didn't have my socks knocked off. You know, it's a little unfortunate that like he sort of has a little bit less positional

54:29versatility than you might like like he really like he's this like archetypal you know stretch for but could he play some great. That's the other thing I've thought about this. That's sort of what I'm just that's what I'm that's what I'm walking through now and it's like I think maybe but where is he defending along the perimeter navigating screens? I mean, you know, if you're guarding the second or third best, you know, we you know, perimeter guy and opposing teams maybe the target can't be too big on your back. They just go at you. So maybe he can do some of that but some of the limitations passing ball handling, you know, sliding along the perimeter like you are losing some stuff there too. So that ultimately I think one of the one of the things that's tough for him is that like I don't know how much positional versatility he has like he kind of has to be at the four and he's been in the system long enough where they've now brought in people that are just going to be higher in the even with bridges moving on like they just have other guys who

55:31are now higher in the in the pecking order than than than Tijon maybe ever was. So I don't think the book is closed on him because again, he's still super young and he's super competitive and he's about the right stuff and he's shown not just flashes but like tangible growth. But I just don't know if it's going to happen fast enough, you know, in Charlotte and even a fully actualized version of him like I'm not sure that's ever like a full-time starter in the NBA. It sort of depends on where you think his upside lies, I suppose. But yeah, it's just that he's in a tough spot and it's something that I'm glad you wrote it back is probably flying under the radar a little bit this off season. So yeah, I'll be here to sort of see how that how that one how that plays out in camp. All right, Brian, well that is it. We finished our last September episode next week.

56:31We'll be back and there should be training camp news and quotes from media day, which guys will be on here to break down. I probably will not be available, but I think Matt is around. There'll be other guys around too. So thank you for joining me this week, Brian. Everyone, go check out Richie. By the way, this week has been killing it. Richie might be out of action for the podcast for a little bit. He's been killing it with the fingers. Yeah, he's making up for it. So make sure he's written about Royce O'Neill this week. He's written about extension talks this week. Go check out Richie's stuff on BuzzBee. I know sometimes your dear listeners don't always go on the substack, but go check it out. It's good stuff. We'll catch you next week, Brian. Have a good one. Cheers.