"Harry Kane deserves the Ballon d'Or"

0:00From blockades to breakthroughs, from rising tides of populism to market crashes, from number 10 to the White House. The Story Podcast helps you digest the new cycle with the best journalism from the times and the Sunday times. I'm Manvin Ronner, and I'm Luke Jones. We'll bring you one new story told in depth every day. Exclusive stories, expert analysis and groundbreaking investigations. Find the story wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. On today's show, a winning Champions League return for Liverpool Arsenal Manchester City and Aston Villa. A nine-go Stanford Bridge Carabout Cup thriller, a ballendor shortlist of 30 names, but Harry Kane is among the favourites. A VAR revelation for one of our panelists thanks to West Amunite's relegation to the

1:00championship and should Tottenham Hotspur be given Chelsea's 2016-17 Premier League title, Merit Gio Pogetino thinks so. I'm Gregor Robertson, joining me in the studio today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel and the former Chelsea and Aston Villa striker and Times columnist Tony Cascarino. Guys, good to have you. Good to be here Gregor. Martin, I think most people know what we're talking about, but the VAR revelation will come today. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it will come from the show. Maybe something good to come from West Amunite's relegation to the championship. There's nothing good because it doesn't really matter what I say. It's not going to happen, but it's just a revelation from me. I don't know, it goes without saying I'm happy that you're maybe a competitor to the dark side. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You start with dark side. Anyway, let's start with the interview in today's Times by Peter Rotsler. Mauritio Pocciotino, Chelsea broke the rules Spurs should have been awarded title. That's the headline in today's Times. This relates to Pocciotino led Tottenham to their best finish in the modern era in 2017,

2:07finished second behind Conte's Chelsea, but reflecting on that season now, he sees differently he thinks that Chelsea in light of their confirmed punishment for 74 breaches of FA rules during the Roman Abramovic era, he believes that Spurs should be awarded the title. What do you think? Doesn't happen, does it, in English football? They don't like asterisk. I can understand why leagues don't like asterisk, because asterisk is a death to the credibility of a league. You want to remember that season, there's lots of records that were set in that season. I said it before with the Manchester City and the 115 charges and all of this, that there's a lot of footage, there's a lot of sky on the right, the history of the Premier League as much as anything else. They've got the aguero moment and they've got all of these different, and you suddenly go, that's not relevant anymore aguero because we're going to take that title of Manchester

3:07City and here's your title winning footage from that season. It's Manchester United looking as miserable as seen, walking around, was it Sunday? Yes, Sunday, walking around the pitch at Sunday and having lost the league. The sporting bodies don't like doing that stuff, so... Would that be the ultimate deterrent, no? May it work? I work. What happened with Chelsea? What happened with Chelsea? A lot of people think that Chelsea's punishment was very lenient and they should have been deducted points and they should have been this nation. We've given a 10 million pound fine suspended to Wendell Transfer ban. What happened with Chelsea is they self-reported and then they worked with the Premier League's lawyers on the case. So the Premier League didn't know any of this stuff and then suddenly Chelsea's lawyers are going, but we've got all of this, there's all of this documentation here, there's

4:07your documentation there. So when they come to do the... Like the punishment, it was absolutely brilliant on the part of the new Chelsea owners who don't get very much credit for much at all. But the people at the club who ran that case for them did a fabulous job because they made themselves the friends of the Premier League, they made themselves the people who got that case over the line for the Premier League and for the Premier League's lawyers. So when it came to deciding the punishment, it would have seemed very harsh if having helped them with all the information or whatever they then went to send the back. 20 point deduction, so they made it a financial penalty. Yes, this is mainly related to transfers conducted before that season. So there's still a spin of the team. The Red and Hazard, William, David Louise, Namania Matish, all players who were bought by the club and it's no being confirmed.

5:08Those transfers happened worth the help of underscores payments to intermediaries. So, like, what do you stand on this? Retrospect. You have to be very careful because loopholes get exposed all the time and there's been, in my opinion, probably a number of clubs all over Europe and elsewhere that have done things that would have been against the rules. And I think... It's more than a loophole, we should see. Oh, yes, not when. I wasn't saying a loophole on the rules. Yeah, but I'm talking, there's going to be some bigger ones, and some smaller ones. There are all different things that happen in football that is unfair. Many teams have done it. Many teams have established. I mean, there's teams that will take it further. There's clubs that will do whatever they can to get a certain player. They'll pay more to an agent if they can get that deal over their line. That's been... I'm not condoning it. I'm just trying to say that we could go with a hammer. You could go down and go. Yeah, take the legal way from them. I just... How many would you end up going for? Because if it started at Chelsea, you'd end up going,

6:11well, let's do some digging now. Let's see some other teams that may be cross that line as well. Now I get... I have a bit of a problem with it, because I've always said to you, Greg, my biggest fear for football is that there's going to be a real lawyer impact in football. Something. And it's happening in all different areas. And I think you could... If you're going to take it that far, you could end up saying, stripping from the leg. I just think it's never ending. You're going to start one place and you're going to end up somewhere else very, very quickly. Okay. Let's go on to the football, shall we? Champions League action this week for English teams return to action on Tuesday and Wednesday matches tonight to play tonight, of course. Shall we start Anfield, Tony? Yeah. Good night for Alexis McAllister after a bit of a... Well, a bold piss conference 24 hours earlier. I said it was very, very sad not to be offered a new contract when other players in his position at... Did you ever feel sad, Greg, when you were... I had a bit of a time, Stone. That's positive. Exactly. I did as well. We got no deal. So how have I been offered a new deal?

7:12Well, he's got two years left. Yeah. And I suppose as they say, you do your talking on the pitch and you did that. It's good to work. Well, many players play very well in their last year of their contract. They'll brilliantly well. Ken Bites, who I played under on Chelsea, once said, don't give contracts in sort of eight pool time before the end of season, because they'll disappear the players by the end of the season. So that's always stuck with me. I just feel like you haven't played well enough. He didn't play to the levels he had in the previous... Not last season. Now, I will go back to last season. Sorry, he didn't play well. The previous season to that, he played a much higher level. Now, this year, he started really well. And one of the big standout features of Liverpool, I feel they look way fitter very quickly. They look... I'm watching Vert's now, literally charging over the pitch. Now, now I've got away from Macalacea, but generally they look way fitter. And he does. He looks way more up to speed. You think they looked open still? Yeah, they just have to... Everyone looks open. Power from Arsenal, everybody looks open.

8:13Man city look open. Everyone looks open. It's the early days in the RIOs, then you're obviously a league's depressed high and league space in behind, but they were particularly for Laurenti's goal. We were just, you know, touring a Sunday in the first half. A couple of teams. Well, I mean, look, I thought one of the... One of the standout things you mentioned, Vert's there, is when you see him by Kohler and ESAQ and Vert's, you're looking at that and you're beginning to see how it could work. I mean, we've got equity case to come back as well, but you're beginning to see how that forward line could work, because there's been a lot of talk about... Chelsea, I've got the best forward line. But you're looking at a lot of the other clubs now and going, well, actually, that in a bad forward line, you know, if you can get Vert's bar Kohler and ESAQ going... Three or three in a row. I mean, you know, a Neckatique to come into that, well, you know, you'd buy that for a dollar, Manchester City with, you know, with Semenio and with Harland.

9:15Docky and Docky and, you know, there's a lot of very good forward lines. They're not too many good defences, but there's a lot of very good forward lines. It's really interesting to see. But Vert's was good last night. I've always argued, we all know he's a great player. We all know technically, Superb. We all know that. He was... I always felt he was on the Fringe of Games at Liverpool last year. Yeah, so... Way too often. And he's much better than that. And now watching last night, unlike Martin Touchdown, he's just seeing the seeds now of someone who's starting to develop in his game. Because last year, he was flicking. He looked a little bit raw and naive in his game, struggled. But, you know, we all know there's a player there. So that was a big positive available. And Bradley Barclaps is on field, Bo. Could have scored twice. Probably. He's on one of them. Came off with Crump, but you can see that they've got a player there. Well, he's lining quickly. And, you know, I've always said, and he's so young, so you give him the absolute benefit of that. The one downside to his game was always how clinical he would be in front of the goal.

10:15Yeah, of course. And if he comes even a little bit better than that, he'll absolutely take four backs apart, because he's so quick. And he's direct. And I just... I think it's a really good signing, because that's going to be area-wise team. It's going to be stretching your position. And they're going to break into spaces. You've got to defend against that. That's a hard thing to do. OK. On to Naples next, Arsenal 101. I guess, Napoli as you see, Martin, one team who managed... I think that's the 20th clean sheet and 40 Champions League games under Michel Ateza. Yeah, extraordinary record. Four more than any other sides since the start of 23-24 season. Arsenal 26 shots. That's the one thing possibly from this game. So many chances passed up many, and it was still a bit near, towards the end. Yeah, absolutely. I think we've got to touch on Ode Guard. Ode Guard looks absolutely fantastic, doesn't he? He looks... He looks like the World Cup player, as opposed to Arsenal last season, where by his standards, he didn't seem to have...

11:17He didn't have the greatest season. If you look to Arsenal in... Arsenal players in the World Cup, the best Arsenal players at the World Cup, all the guys that actually last season, were the ones who were a little bit disappointing or they were on the fringes and they weren't in there. Whereas their main players, like Gabrielle and Celeba, didn't have the greatest World Cup, the guys that they were absolutely relying on last year. And I must admit, I thought, I was looking at that thinking, this could be hard for Arsenal to retain this title, because their main guys, look as if they're, you know, Sacka, for instance, you know, it looks nappy, it looks broken. It's took so much to get over the line. What are they going to look like at the start of the season? Well, we've got the answers to that. They look very, very good. They look very, very good. I would regard in particular, I think, as when exceptional. The goals, I think, are beauty. When 29 pass build up, and that kind of just that little bit of bravery

12:18or insatiable player in the edge of the box, that opens up a pocket of space, with a good little touch from to all, as we should see. Yeah. But it's a match winner. Yeah, four goals in play already to start the season. Yeah, I did a patient in probably 18 months, two years ago, to have had how he made Arsenal work and his performances. And that got, as Martin touched on, lost a bit last year. But it just shows you the difference of some losing their absolute peak of pomp, fit physically. Because when he's on his physical game, he has got all the ability in the world. And he just makes them tick. Just a little side story on this one, is that I was watching a program before the Arsenal game. And I was watching this program. It was about anacondas. Oh, right. OK, yeah. Right, it's about anacondas. OK, yeah. It's unwatching here. And I'm not yet. And then I put Arsenal, I think, they're the anaconda of footballs. Because they literally crush and strangle, literally everything. They wrap and every player wraps himself around an other player in the opposition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought, well, they've got like 11 anacondas in their team.

13:20And I started to think about the goals against Column. And I think, in one team scored against them this year, it was so far this season. It's Chelsea, they didn't concede against Manchester in the community of the Shield. I haven't conceded in any other games. Champions League games, League, Premier League games. I've conceded one goal. You have to go back to mid-April the last time they conceded two. And this team is so much better. Even though Celeba is not there, this team is just unbelievable at stopping the opposition. And I'll all I kept thinking of was that. It's the anacondas. I've been in the last season with very much like squills. You know, the... All the players were getting nuts. Very, very squint. You're looking to find their nuts. But you know what I mean? But like, if we play a rap, some say, they're not aware. Where's that come from? They're not as played nearly every game for them. And he's looked superb. And seeing that trio, again, of all the guys, I can wait again. Like, you know, a bit of a throwback just a couple of years ago. They just got so much intuition. And, you know...

14:20Uncalafio is one. Yeah. And, you know, the... But they all do it. I mean, I'm very much to think the impact of the Cabral Heinzer on the fallbacks of Zad. Is that me just being... Because he was a really tenacious, no nonsense, you know, whether he played him frat or... Or... Matt made such an eye to just watching him. They all looked like... He was like that. He would literally get himself wrapped up with a winger. And literally be all over him, smother him, don't give him time to think. And all of them fallbacks do that. If the only one potential... Let's not even concern. Clearly, Arsenal has started season brilliantly. But I think only Saka would have gone on to have some score to goals. Like, this game, particularly, showed that... Beyond them, maybe... They still have not got that... What a hell of a scene. Obviously, have us. We have a scene. And he has had injuries in the past. I have a scene, he brings your queries... Back into the... Forward line. Or a firing line. And the firing, you know, for exactly. And the bait then begins, you know,

15:21is this a guy that you're coming to league with now? They've won the league. They've won the league with him. So, you go with his, you answer. They won the league with him. You won the refake, could win it again with him, or whether teams would have worked him out a little bit more. It's a difficult one, because you are... The only thing you can see, stopping Arsenal at the moment, would be some sort of injury issue. And it would also have to be, in a very specific area, like the centre-forward area. Because in the other areas, they've got a reserve team that would probably finish top four. I mean, Consus joined in Lutlacke's been there for years. And, you know, you're talking their reference to the Premier League. It's the same true of the Champions League. Obviously, they were finalists last year. Like, I think it's last November. November. No, I think it's the last November. November, two years ago, was the last time they lost a league phase game. They've been dominant up until... Yeah, I have a look at the record of English clubs in the league phase game. I mean, that is...

16:21You know, one of the reasons why you look at this, you know, I've caught up with highlights and stuff like that. I was at Kurt Val at the Trixie last night. I wasn't sitting in front of the television. Because you know where he was brilliant by the way, Kurt Val was so be super. But anyway, because you know the way this is going to go, it's... Every game was a win, wasn't it? Yeah. I've got that wrong. Every game was a win. And... I'm not going to... We're not going to win ever... But have a look at how many games English clubs have lost in the group phase. It's... It's next to... It's next to nothing, really. And even when... When the fixtures came out and there's a couple of teams that have got hard... difficult ones, a man city, I think, everyone was saying, oh man, city, I've got a difficult one. Last year, Ben Fieker got through on nine points. You know, they need to win three matches.

17:22Yeah. Which is well comfortable for them. You know, which is... Which is, you know, the pre-season before, I think, it took a point more or whatever. But really, there should not be, given the strength of our league, there should not be a single English club that is not involved in the last 16. Okay, let's talk about Man City next. Tunnel winners against Porto in Portugal, Erling Hallund with both goals. And... But should Mark Gare have been sent off to think Martin? Look, I've written a lot about Elbow's, and Elbow context, and I don't think it's taken anywhere near seriously, as it should be, if you look at what Gary Mabba has had to live with, you know, throughout his retirement, and things like that. It's horrendously dangerous. It really is. You know, the inhumane thing, Barnsley versus Jeffery Tonight at that time, a man could have died, if his wife has not switched on the following morning,

18:24and works out that he's not making sense, basically. In his in the kitchen, and he's talking, but he's not making sense, and she realizes something seriously wrong. And he had a breed on the brain that would have killed him. I would be super strict on that, and do I think that's the send-in off, yes or no? Just say, probably, no sense of malice. I don't think he means it. I mean, the inhumane Chris Morgan, thing I'd define, he wanted to look at that footage, and not say, Chris Morgan knew what he was doing. Check where he was, his feet planted, it's a totally different thing to Mark Graham, but you've got to be careful. And I know it can be an accident, but, you know, so can break in someone's leg. That can be an accident. It's probably a leg-breaking tackle, sort of a complete accident. And I think it's a very serious, I don't think it justifies, you know,

19:25the punch-up in the tunnel, and everything that was going on. But at the time, I think that's a word, I don't know, we're going to talk about the AI later. I don't know what the point of the AI is, if it is not for something where you can say to the roughly, I think you should look at that. I think you might have missed one there. Yeah, the Elbow's a dangerous grigory. I mean, you plan it fallback, planning against wingers. You know, I lost two front teeth for an Elbow. Yeah. Right, we know for an Elbow. Can one comment in the game now? And did you think I would deliver it, Tony? Yes, so, some of them, nice definitely, but it could be. There was a period of the game. Yeah, absolutely. You know, if you're looking 80s and 90s football, especially more so 80s, that, you know, the fallpack or the winger would, either we see the Elbow or get an Elbow in the front. Senator Ford said, I remember planning against Gary Briggs and Shoton at Oxford. Gary Briggs was a real, fighting one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'd done me like a kipp of an Elbow.

20:26Only from a literally split second me moving, he would have really nailed me with an Elbow. And he was a day to obviously know Var. So, but, you know, this, this isn't just on Gary Briggs at Oxford and Malcolm Shotton was the other center off, who's a really tough lad as well. You had, you had them's hyperplies that it was sort of, yeah, badge of honor sort of, you know, that you could use your Elbow. They helped Harry's solid. Yeah, I'll see. You had someone bring Elbat. Yeah, absolutely. You could really out them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just on Enzo Marek's start, I mean, just again, another win, another two goals for Erling Hall and it doesn't feel like it's really probably taken flight. Yeah, does it? What do you think? Manchester Derby this weekend. Manchester Derby this week. Clearly be favourite, but it's... Yeah, you'd fancy them, wouldn't you? You'd fancy them. Was it Johnny North Coffe on the weekend, where he's peace on Man City? Was it the weekend on the start, under last week? Johnny North Coffe's. Which one? Which one? We're the one on Man City of Erm, actually. They've spent, and you know, they've, oh, he was talking about the, um, spending, spending 400 million,

21:27but you sort of, you know, you're, you're looking at pain dry, watching them. That was a good thing. That was a good thing. Yeah, which is, you know, and there is a part of us that were thinking, there has to be more to this. Well, this was the case in the game last night. I remember watching this, and it was kind of sick to say, then, not much in the decision. Yeah. And it was kind of actually live, and that by that moment just before our... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was a bit feisty second up. But when you've got Holland, you can just be the killer, the boss. They're always going to have a chance, Tony. Yeah, I, you know, he's the, uh... The centre-forward that you just know. He never seems to lose belief in his ability to be not really in the game, and being a bit like we talked earlier about being on a vringer-game. Then suddenly a moment comes, and you make the most of it. I mean, the header he got last weekend with Semeniacrosses, and he literally had the far-po. You know that, that, to me, is just the forward that's absolutely ready in every scenario, even if he's not involved in the game. It doesn't bother him. No. To do nothing. It doesn't bother him not to involve...

22:27Well, it will do if he doesn't score goals, Mark. Yeah. But he's never happened. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. If he wasn't scoring goals, if he went 10 games about a goal, right, I'm sure he'd be knocking on the manager's door. If he wasn't getting the match of the kick of the ball, he'd be like, I need... I think he'll get better service from him on the rest of the team. Then he probably will play the glory out of the team. Because he plays... They seem to be feeding him already. I mean, Fernandez has got a very good relationship with him already. I mean, I'll come back to my point of good news when I tell she's self-at-propelled for Manchester City. But I think, I think, Murezka will be far more willing to play absolutely to Harlan Shrenks than a Pep Guardo in Manchester City was. Interesting. Okay, Final Games asked him, Villa 3 Club Brooga 2. Goals from Super John McGinn, Amy Wendy and Nicholas Jackson. Nicholas Jackson, the one I want to talk about, though. Yeah.

23:27Not John McGinn. No, we can talk about McGinn. We can talk him if you want. But everything about his transfer to Villa was centered around the transfer fee. Yeah, I have to admit, it passed me by that. He worked with Unai Emery at Villarreal. Obviously, he's a direct replacement for all he walk-ins. Do we feel that this could be... It was possibly a bit unlucky at Chelsea. His goal record wasn't bad. I think he got 17 goals in his first season, 13 in his next season. Got a living for Bayern in very few games. Do we think this could be a decent fit for us in the world? Taking the transfer fee away from this? Well, you look at Ali Watkins. He didn't have... Although he's got scored lots of goals in Villa, and was very vital to them. He was stretching teams all the time. And he would get enough chances to score more goals. And it was always aimed at him, that not quite clinical enough to be a super top striker. I've always loved Dolly, because I always used to think he just hurts the opposition all the time. And Jackson sort of ticks that box of stretching teams,

24:30getting chances. And it all comes down to how clinical he'll be, whether he's a big success, because I think all the other parts of his game are really good. He's quick enough to get chances. You'll see Jackson get a lot over the course of a season, one-on-one. Because he had him at Chelsea. He just wasn't as clinical as the expectation was at Chelsea. But I think it's a very... Look, obviously Unai Amory knows how he plays his best football. And I think Villa will train dramatically over the next few weeks and into October, and before Christmas will be a completely different team. With a slightly different dynamic, but again, it's the striker that stretches teams. Think it'd be a good fit, Mum? Yeah, I do. You know, what option they got, really? They've lost a lot of players. I think Jackson can be a liability, as he was at the club ball cup that time. And he's got himself, you know, sent off and everything. And I think that side of his game, but he was very young when he went to Chelsea. You'd think... 24, 25.

25:3025. You know, you would hope he is matured. He's matured in front of goal. One would hope. He's matured as a personality on the field. Emily got the best out of him at video hour. He had that brilliant run of scoring right at the end of his video hour. Which gets the move to Chelsea. It's a run of goals in about three months. And if Emily thinks he can get that out of him for Villa again, and he's older and he's wiser and he's smarter and he's play, I definitely think it could work, yes. Okay, Ashton Villa fans will be hoping so. Loads more to come after the break, including a discussion about whether this might be Harry Kane's year for the Ballon door. And on that theme, the quiz question is... How many Premier League players are on the Ballon door list? Find it after the break.

26:39The Story Podcast brings you the best of the times and the Sunday Times journalism, with one story told in depth every day. I met a good contact of mine and I saw a document which indicated what was happening. Someone came up and pressed a note into my hand which I opened and said, dear friend, please tell the truth about what you see here. Join me, Manvina Rona, and me look Jones on The Story. Find us wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome back to the Game Football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Tony Cascino and Martin Samuel. Before the break, I asked the quiz question, which was, how many Premier League players are on the 30-man Ballon door list? And the answer, Martin, was? Five. Five. Can we name them? Let's name them. Well, it's Erlin Harlan, Gabrielle, William Celeba, Declan Weiss, Bruno Fernandez.

27:43Would have been, Rodley and Mark Cucuolo as well, but there's another two that we've lost. And we've got five out of 30 and Richard Masters keep saying there's no talent training in the Premier League. He's kidding, no one but himself. So you think this is a, this is a, I'm wondering, what are you trying to do? I think it's a very well-entrined 30 players in the Ballon door, 25 players outside the league that we tell ourselves is the best and the biggest. Well, it's certainly the biggest in terms of the money. If you've only got five players out of 25, you know, have a look at, you know, have a look at Spain and how many players they've got. You know, I can't. Okay, the question to that then, Martin, is in years gone by, how many are representative do we know the most ever from the English Premier League? I will know it by the time. So I've no other time in the Sunday times. It's a cool one coming. Well, you're my column item, maybe, yes. Because obviously we say only five, but there are quite a number of leagues from the French League and PSG.

28:44You've got round-dread balls. Yeah, but we're called the best players from the French League, usually. That's what happens and that's no longer happening. You know, PSG managed to keep the players that they want to keep. Okay. Well, let's talk about who the favorites are and whether this might be Harry Kane's year. Shall we start with Harry Kane? Yeah. He has 73 goals. Right. You've got a chance. You should be the winner of the Ballon door. I'm very sorry. I've got a huge admiration for Audrey, but he has won it already. Huge admiration for Audrey and what he does, but the hardest part of Kane is putting it in the net. And if you've done it 73 times in one season, I think that makes you the Ballon door winner. 61 for Bayern, which is almost 40% better than his previous best, with 44 for the club. And obviously 12 more for England, 6, which were at the World Cup. We kind of forget. Yeah, yeah. It's only just recently how. Yeah. And in J.M. It's been a hundred lay for them. Yeah, I think it took a bit of stick. And the World Cup always seems to matter in this. If you look at the other favourites,

29:45Rodgery is one of them. After having a pretty underwhelming season, the Man City. But winning the Golden Ball at the World Cup and lifting the World Cup. So that should also help Harry Kane, Tony, you know? Yeah, he's had an amazing time. He's consistency over Champions League, German, Bundesliga, international football, World Cup, he scored a huge amount of goals. And I mean, there's still some great, I mean, of camera skillia, who's on the list, he was in one of the top five. He didn't really turn up until after Christmas last year. He had half a year of not really being on these peak performances for B.S.G. And when he came alive, he was devastated. He ended up, I think, as big as anybody, helping peer-seed win the Champions League. So there are people, Rodgery, exceptional. But he didn't, again, he didn't have a peak period's last year. He was struggling for, I would say, probably into about February. He worked, Lainey's, absolute best. And then by the end of the season with City, we've played really well. And then obviously the World Cup, it was the best level we've seen him.

30:48So there are fear, I just think if you're looking over a course of, you know, a year, Harry Kane is definitely for me. Clarence Gale, 33 goals in assists in all competitions. You can say, Georgia didn't make the World Cup. But Tony's right, Martin. It's also the numbers matter, but he's also something kind of really different. And the World football at the moment, he's so devastating. And when it really mattered, he didn't think of that classic against Inter Milan. He was the guy who taught us a part. No, he's a fabulous player. Look, you can't give it, he's not a school sports player. You can't give it to everyone. So you actually, at some stage, got to go, why, okay, this guy versus this guy, and I would give it to Harry Kane. No one else in the run in Bapy, 15 goals. I mean, have a look at Barcelona's start to this season. It's ridiculous. I mean, if they score less than five goals in any game, it's a disappointing. Is that the manager? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, it's a super high level. And we can discuss little minute things, but with, always, it's more margins, big differences. And it Harry Kane, what he did last year was,

31:51and he's done, not say last year, it's done for two years. No, that doesn't count for the previous year. It's been a super high level. And if 33, I know you want to get better. You see the problem here is, you would like a debate, but we don't do that. There's no debate. We don't do that. We don't do that. Yeah. I like it. Cabrera Scalia was the one that I always felt. Well, if you look at the odds, actually, Tony, he's not, Quarra Scalia is lower down the list of names who were just given there. So you've got Kane and Bapy and Lamar, I think, are close following behind the road. I don't know how to do it as well, didn't he? He did. Last year. So it's a game, it's, yeah. It's only the second teamager, the fourth teamager, sorry, to win the World Cup. Yeah, absolutely. Again, what happens in international stage really seems to affect the O'Connor? Yeah, absolutely. But they were very much, that was very much a team. Victory wasn't it the Spanish victory, it was very much a victory for the collective, more than for one individual.

32:53Yeah, absolutely. And even the individual that was picked out from the team, it is a guy that operates in a very team-minded way, isn't he? And what is not a great individual football, who is the fork of a well-organised functioning team and makes everything happen? Bush gets a Barcelona, maybe I would probably argue even better. And Bush gets. But that type of midfielder, okay? Harder Keynes, here then. Not to be. Well, if we were in charge of it, but we're not. So would that carry? Well, if you were in charge of VAR Martyr. I was in charge of VAR, mate. Yeah, it would be gone. It would be gone. I stunning you would come. It would be gone. Tell us about your column, your latest column, which after watching West Ham for a few games in the championship. Well, no, what it is, it, look, I was never a fan of VAR and actually pointed this out. The tier we are in, we are in a whole-hand ball against Ireland.

33:54I actually wrote a column that said, this isn't the answer. This is not a panaceaer that everyone thinks it is going to be. It's going to cause more problems. And I've gone back to that on several occasions, things. But always from the perspective of, well, it's here. It's here to stay. Right, how can we tweak? How can we make it work? How can we? And when Gregor has said on this program, I would scrap it off. You can't do that. You can't start trying to uninvent the will. You know, uninvent the car as we are seeing it be doing at the moment. We've got to try and work with it rather than just to polish it. And then, as I pointed out, the column, my team got relegated. And so I'm now watching football without VAR whenever they play. And it's better. It's just simply better. It's, I can't, I can't ignore it. I cannot ignore it. I look, I, look, it doesn't matter what I say, it's not going to happen. Walls had their chance and they lost 19 one trying to get VAR abolished.

35:00So it's not going to happen. None of what I say here makes a slight whisper. I disagree. Apart from the fact that it's my realisation now that we try to tweak something that is so fundamentally flawed and is so against what sport is meant to be about. That actually, I, I'm with you, I would, I would scrap it. I forgot how much I missed the idea. Football like it used to be. When a ball went in the net, you might have a sideways glance to make sure there's no offside for it. I've got a sideways glance, so to referee, and waving his arms furiously, or pointing somewhere else, or whatever. And in that split second, you've got all the information. No one's doing anything. And you know, no one's making a sign that suggests that there's something wrong. Balls in the net is a goal. And I've seen so many goals, so I'm not watching every single championship match.

36:01I'm watching my team in the championship. But I've seen a lot of goals that I'm thinking we'd knock off for four minutes in with this, while we played it backwards and forwards, played it backwards and forwards. And we might come to the same conclusion. In fact, we probably would come to the same conclusion. Or we might have found something or whatever. But there is nothing in this that actually should overall the on-field decision. There is absolutely nothing here that should have. So we were better off with the on-field decision. You're just better off with the on-field decision. Yeah, I... And then we got on with it. I went to Millwall versus Norwich Championship, and it was quite... I do watch quite a number of games anyway, lower down. Yeah. And actually, I know I was always for VAR. Yeah, okay. I never in a million years imagined it would become what it has. No, totally. And that is... Wow, how did we get here? Then I go Brentford, you're talking about time.

37:02I go Brentford last weekend. There was one player that went down injured and it felt a little bit of time. Half time, eight minutes. Because of a VAR decision, mainly. Eight minutes. And I'm thinking, how do we have eight minutes in the first half? How did it all? Because mainly a VAR decision with Dan Ballard when they scored. And then, wait, to the monitor. And it just... How do we just allow this? That's the problem. Yeah, and how do we just allow this? Yeah, and so I... I now like... What we're all talking about, I think... Is there any way that we can just reconsider VAR? It's absolutely... I don't get it. How have I got that Greg out in my thinking? The lane that jumped out from me in your piece, which some doubt was... You know, it said, we've lost the joy that should come with goals. And that's more valuable than the flawed truth that we've acquired. Yeah. I think that sums up brilliantly, because... You know, there's no definitive truth to the time. No, because there's not... And you can maybe reference the incident in the championship

38:05that you spoke about in this, in the rules game. The rules, right? The manager, the latest manager, and there's been a couple now. Yeah. Who are advocating for the introduction of VAR in the championship. It's the only one month that he's... He wants to tell us how to do it. And it was nothing. It was nothing, moment. It was a nothing moment. And the guy... But the interesting thing was I wrote in the piece. I took a little chance by saying, Wolf's friends will not agree with their manager. Even though the Birmingham goal is a stud, and he thinks it was a handball, Wolf's friends will not want to swap the season that they are having in the championship. With the... You know, they scored it until that point. They scored 18 goals. You know, almost three goals a game, in every game that your team has scored, that you've just been out of celebrate, and here we go. And sure enough, a lot of the people below the line were Wolf's friends. Not one of them said, now I agree with their manager, I'd rather have the Birmingham goal disallowed. And all of that.

39:05Because invariably, I know there will be some mistakes. Of course there will be mistakes. And it might even be the odd travesty. But don't tend. The island situation, where they would have gone to the World Cup without that. That was such an outlier. And that's what I wrote, 2009. That's what I wrote, that this was a real outlier, because it was the perfect storm to advocate technology. It was massively obvious that it had happened to everyone but the referee on the field. There was a clear restart. There was no suggestion about, oh well, what happens if we let Pion and then someone scores and then we'd go to drag it back for something that's happened, you know. It was a clear restart, because the, you know, it's handboys, but the ball was in the net. Play had stopped anyway, so you've got time. Everything about it was perfect. And the consequences were massive and irreparable.

40:07But everything isn't like that. That thing that the Walls manager was complaining about, Birmingham's first goal, it's a tool draw. That's their first goal. So you scrapped that, the problem that Walls had against Birmingham was they sent it off, kicked the ball straight and it was on net. That was the problem there. So, you know, that'll be what, if I was a Walls fan, that's what I would be ticked off about. Not the absence of VIR, as sent a forward, loopily playing the ball back to Jose Sare and straight into his own net for the tool draw. So, let's only up a bit more then say, where two X players, right? So, if we, how do you think the players would vote in the game about, if they ever had a referendum on the players, how do you think they would vote? Do you think they'd vote in or out? I do, I think it may depend on the level. I think, no, that it's in in the Premier League, I fear that players would want potential, they are in the potential, or something that could save them from what if their blosh is essentially? I think fans would vote 75, 80.

41:1080% of fans, including Premier League. Players are fans, I know they're players, but they're... I think players might be more gangster than you. Maybe, maybe. I just didn't like that. Because no one's ever asked the players and said, look, because we're all to a weed debate, we chat and we're all in radios and on TV, there's all punditry going on. The actual players never get asked who are playing at the game at this moment. Did you say that the outset, none of this makes a bling, but a difference? Yeah. Why? Because it's here, and I don't think... That's the fittest man. I know it's something. Mate, I've been touring at Wim Mill's my entire life, financial fair play, you name it mate, but I just don't think... I was talking, I was talking to one of my legs last night, and it said to me, VIR is football if football was played by referees. That's... This is the version of football they would come up with,

42:11because they're referees. That's a fair point. It said it wouldn't be the version of football that footballers would come up with. You know, it's absolutely about referees. It also said something else, which was quite funny. He said, I think he would ride a tongue in cheek, but they should do it like, so every game should have three people sitting there. You've got one minute, and you go green or red, bang like, that's it, and that's it. Unless you can't decide after a minute, you've got to vote that the unfulfilled decision is right. Not far off, but some people are looking for... He's going to spin around in the seat, exactly. But, you know what I mean? Is that sort of thing we've come... We've got to this ridiculous sort of situation, where you're looking at and going, well, I actually need the worst time. What is that? If it was three experts... It would keep you entertained. The third professional, they got to vote within 60 seconds on what they've seen, and you need three green lights to reverse the decision. Other than that, it's the unfulfilled decision. It made me laugh.

43:11Phil, imagine everyone that started a pitch. Yeah. Martin Riddin has called me very happy and detailed. I've got to start the campaign. See that while the sloppy grin on your face, the use in tyre section. I think we need to end with... Chelsea's the nine gold thriller at Stanford Bridge. It's ridiculous, isn't it? On the night with the Champions League football, there's also League Cup football. I think, actually, if you're to ask players what their biggest issue is, it's all the football. Yeah. I don't know what... I know this... I think this is... So... This never would die off anymore. No. But I know that... We don't want any violence for us. No, no, no, no. That's not what I'm talking about. I think I've got... You think about it for my point of view. I think about it from, like, a football fan's point of view, where, in the end, you go, well, I can't watch everything. And that's when you start going, well, it's Liverpool vs. Real Madrid or whatever. But, I know it was that let's go this week,

44:12but it's Liverpool going through Real Madrid. I would probably play in the knockout stage. I'll watch it when they play in the knockout stage. And you start... Actually, it might be insélective. On games that would be appointment viewing, because it's coming around again. You know, it's Arsenal vs. Sash and Satch, but I played three times last season. I think, you know, of all the lead-cup games, there weren't many shocks, like, it didn't make you think it was kind of faded into the background in a European week. But this was an absolute auto-toney. Yeah. Six, three to Chelsea. There were two no-downs and four, seven minutes scored four goals in 12 minutes. Both the two. As Mark said, there were a lot of changes made, and then, Nettel, Risch, James, Morgan, or just called for an American one after the game. Yeah, I'm bang. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we keep seeing it. It's chaotic, but it's kind of fun. Yeah. No, well, we had a chat, remember before the start of season, when we were back, what's going to be exciting, or, you know, what you're looking forward to this year. And I went, Chelsea. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, I just felt they were going to be this.

45:12Now, I know it's easy and I inside, are looking back. No, you're watching them, and the way they go about their business, it is taken, I mean, there's heavy metal football, which we've seen for Klopp's team. We've seen some of the men's city and the way they possession base, but also really effective. We're seeing all different styles of football, but even in Lonzo's team, there's an upgrade on attacking football. It's actually everywhere. When you see the, like you say, the cavalry come on. And it's like, the first question you're thinking, how are leads going to deal with this? Yeah. And lead on a bad team. And I couldn't. Lead to a good team. Yeah, yeah. Good side. I mean, the one, again, the one warrior's how many goals, Chelsea? I can see the list two or three in every game. They've got, it's not the end of it. It's the first thing I've come back though, haven't they? I mean, I say, though, yeah, we'll make a difference. Plessstree, is it Plessstree? Plessstree, I'm pronouncing it right. Plessstree, is there starting for that? You know, if you look to all the preseason games, Plessstree was the starting for back. So he makes a big difference, I think, two of Lonzo's system.

46:13Then, Jayne... How well it's not quite, but he's actually obviously that long injuries. Yeah, I like Carl Wohl, but he has a lot of injuries as well. Yeah. And I showed him for Danny Wilbeck, he's turning the box, 36th November. Yeah. Love him and Jordan Henderson, we're kind of saying there's... People thought there might be mascots there for their experience, but he gets the opportunity and minutes he's going to make an impact. I don't see why Wilbeck would be considered a mascot, given the season he had at point in the last season. You know, which was good. So I'm not saying, you know, Chelsea will obviously have ambitions of... If not, if not winning the league, they would certainly have ambitions of finishing the top four and maybe winning atro field or whatever. And I'm not saying you can make Danny Wilbeck, you're starting to send a forward for a season and think you're going to win the league. But, Ezer, hell of a guard, have come enough of a bench.

47:14He really is because... And in tournaments like the Car Well Cup, because he was excellent. You look at his record at Brighton, look at his record everywhere he's been since Manchester United. He's always done a job for everyone. My Hodson loved him. I know. I think we do. He's loved him. The media love him and reason why, for me is you can trust him. He won't let you down. Whatever you think of Danny Wilbeck, he will not let you down. And I think he's perfect for a manager who goes, Danny get warmed up. Yeah. Things are not going right. And you know you're going to get a lot from him. He's ability to hold up the ball. He's ability to see the chance when he gets one. I mean, I'd love to know. And he obviously is a hypothetical question, but just... How good would Danny have been if? Because he had some serious injuries. Yeah, yeah. He had some really bad injuries along the way. For me, he could have easily played at the very highest level. A lot longer. I know. I think he missed a whole year at Arsenal when he was in the name of a... Well, I think he did. But fair play to him,

48:15because he's been a great pro. That's... It's always great for a manager to have great pros in addressing them. Okay. Well, Chelsea host, Hull, at the weekend. The only team we have yet to consider goals. So we'll need Wilbeck firing and everyone else. Manchester Dari to come on Sunday as well, of course. And we'll be back on Monday to discuss all of that and more. Hope to see you then. The Story Podcast The Story Podcast brings you the best of the times and the Sunday Times journalism, with one story told in depth every day. I met a good contact of mine and I saw a document which indicated what was happening. Someone came up and pressed a note into my hand, which I opened and said, dear friend, please tell the truth about what you see here. Join me, Manvin Rona and me, Luke Jones, on The Story. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.