Gina Gardiner & Friends with Rashmi Dube

0:00It's time now for Gina Gardner and friends. The show that shares stories from inspiring people from a wide range of expert guests all focused on helping you live a happier, more successful, and fulfilling life. Gina Gardner is a multiple number one international best-selling author, motivational speaker, business coach, and trainer. She's the founder of Genuinely You. It has over 30 years experience of helping people step into their genuine, authentic power, personally, and professionally. Matthew. Uh-oh. Sorry. It's okay. I just need you to listen to me. I know that a lot of times, mom, it might not seem like I'm listening to you, but I am. I hear you, and what you say really does matter to me. I mean, let's be honest. No kid likes rules, but I get why we have them. I hear you, and I know it's because you care. It's for more information about talking with your kids about underage use of alcohol and other drugs. Visit underagedrinking.samsa.gov.

1:02And now, here's your host, Gina Gardner. Hello there, and a huge welcome to today's episode of Gina Gardner and friends. Today I'm joined by Rushmay Dubay. He is a dispute lawyer, an international mediator, a charter director, and a speaker. And we're going to be talking about communications. So Rushmay, a huge welcome. Thank you very much for joining me today. Oh, thank you so much, Gina, for inviting me on your show. So before we get started in the body of our conversation, you've achieved a huge amount in your life, and I'd like you to share your story so people get a sense of you and where you started and what the journey's been like. Gosh, I would say my journey was very much like a crazy paving, not straightforward in any shape or form, but I qualified as a lawyer and specialised in disputes and worked internationally on that still do.

2:03But what I realised as a disputes lawyer was really, you have this anxiety, you have this dispute, but really, how do we help people navigate that? I was fascinated by that, so it became a mediator, and again, now work internationally around that, but the common theme there was the communication. And I have served on boards as either an executive, director or non-exec, and again, even though I'm a lawyer, so I would say my threshold is slightly higher in understanding of what the directors duties are on a board. I just didn't feel like I had that full understanding of the vision, the strategy and all the elements that go into running a good organisation. And so I qualified as a charter director, and not to leave it there, because clearly I love the education system. I then did a certification with MIT for AI and strategy, and that was recently, but

3:03I do a lot of talking, public speaking, about communication, leadership, and wrote a book on, it was actually really communication because it's networking and personal brand, and this is back in the day when nobody else was really talking about it. So I would say, yeah, crazy paving, but the common theme is ethics, governance and communication. I'm fascinated, what made you want to be a lawyer? So I'm laughing because I vividly remember that there were two things that I really wanted to be when I grow up, you know, and that when I grow up, clearly haven't grown up yet. Were you in the first place? Was I wanted to be a judge or do something around law because I wanted to advocate for people, and I think it started off with somebody being bullied at school and I saw it, and somebody had to speak up for them. And the second one was, I wanted to be in the James Bond film. That was one of the two, could they really?

4:06No. So yeah, and they just ended up doing the law, I just continued pursuing it, but I would say it's so critical for anyone who's pursuing any type of profession or has any ambition to try and get as much information and knowledge and mentors to guide you. Because I didn't have anyone guiding me through where I really wanted to be, everything was very organic and I think it took me longer to find my thread, my frequency, whatever it was. It wasn't straightforward, you have to, but if you have a clear goal, and back in the day, the clear goal was always to meet partner. And then I just opened my own law firm. Because why not? I should do. Yeah, I should do. So that was my second business. You know, my serial entrepreneur, that was my second business, actually. But yeah, I would advise anybody just to find somebody who can just help you guide you and just ask as many questions as possible.

5:08I think that's great advice, but I'm interested that, you know, being a dispute lawyer, that's a very specialised niche, isn't it? What was your journey to get to that place? Because it was organic and I'm interested how that development came about. I think I've always been really big on communication and listening to the nonverbal cues that people give. So that's been inherent to me since I was a child and possibly developed because I was born in the UK, lived in the UK, but my parents then moved to America when I was 11. So I stayed there, you know, through junior high, high school. And so when you've moved to another country, and you could say, oh, it's very similar, it's America. It's not. It's very, very different. The culture is different. The language itself is different. The cues are different. Don't they say they're two countries separated by the same language because we have such

6:14different inferences and meanings to the words that we use? Yes, absolutely, you know. And we're very more self-deprecating in the UK, you know, we use irony a lot and sarcasm a lot. And it's these nuances. And it's also body language and it's actually where I learnt, I think, organically how to read cues, how to read people. And then when I went into the law, I looked at the other areas of law, like just helping people with mergers and acquisitions, buying and selling companies, you know, where there is a lot of money, by the way, but there are a fair number of disputes along the way. There are a lot of disputes and that's actually what was really interesting is I posted something on LinkedIn this week about it, talking about what I've seen recently in disputes is there's an increase like people are really angry and just going from zero to off the scale, you

7:19know, and just firing off and it's just fascinating what's happening recently. I have a theory and I'm very interested in your thoughts about my theory. Yeah. I think we've got a huge amounts of polarisation and people are very, you'll either agree with me and with me or you're against me. And there is that sense that having a different opinion can't mean that you actually agree to differ and that there's nothing good or bad right or wrong, it's just different. And I think that that is fueled by fear and I think we're living in a time when people are frightened about managing financially, they're frightened about fitting in, being enough, frightened about the political situation. And I think fear goes back to when we were cavemen and women where anything that was different was seen as a huge threat and I, you know, interesting because what I'm, so I haven't

8:19thought about that, so give me a moment to process that, but where I initially saw it was in your right, I agree with your opinion on the fact that people are either right or wrong at the moment. Yeah. And I think that is a lack of critical thinking. Yes, some. We used to have critical thinking and we still do, it's not gone away, it's just people aren't using it. We should, what I mean by that is, let's have a discussion, let's have a debate, let's explore the ideas. Yeah. This is what you say, why are you saying that? This is what I'm saying, why are you saying that type of thing and nobody's having discussions and if somebody disagrees with an opinion, nobody's asking further questions. What they're doing is saying, you're just putting the shut down and going, you're absolutely wrong, I'm cutting ties with you. And started, when I started seeing that, really came out of social media because of the comments section because you didn't have everybody understanding discussion and debate. And so those that had that discussion and debate didn't participate and walked away

9:21from it. The point of the fear, yeah, I think a lot of people are concerned about how they come across and then there's also a group that are just don't care how they come across because in their eyes, they're either right or perfect or aren't really interested in anyone else's opinion because they are completely right in their thinking and they're probably in an ecosystem that is being supported. I think that's, I would agree with everything you say, just add another thing to the social media picture, I think one of the challenges is that within social media, you can say what you like and there are absolutely no consequences. So where you are in a face-to-face relationship and if you were to say some of the things that you see on social media that are hurtful, untrue, unnecessary, that that wouldn't happen in a face-to-face situation. I absolutely agree, you can't be called out on it.

10:21And if somebody's leaving a comment calling you out on it, they don't really care because they can't hear it, they can't feel it. And that's part of the communication is there are times when words will have a written word, sorry, will have a huge impact on you, sending a letter, sending an email, sending a WhatsApp, sending a text telegram, whatever it is. But the written comment on social media seems to be protected behind the screen for whatever reason. It may pinch a little bit and it depends on who's having the comments and I say that to people who are responding to comments that let on a feed. Now, if you're leaving horrible comments on somebody's feed, then that's a different thing. And that's happened to me. So I started doing videos and I'm going to go back into doing it. But I got a very negative comment and I'm a fairly strong person and it still pushed me back for months now. Not doing it.

11:22Yeah. But I think the example I was going to use is if someone who had put something fairly innocuous on Facebook with a photograph and the comments about how that person looked were quite frankly disgusting. That person was really hurt by it and they were in the public eye but they actually tracked the person who'd made the comment. And when they then spoke to that person or it just wrote to them, it turned out that this was a 64 year old woman who had two children and three grandchildren and the person involved said, what would you say if somebody had written about one of your grandchildren in those terms and the woman said, well, I'd be very upset. And yet here we had somebody who to all intents and purposes was old enough to know better had written something really hurtful, really destructive and was incredibly surprised when they were faced with that person saying, you said this to me, why did you say it?

12:25And why do you think that's okay? What that reminds me of is something Sarah Silverman did. Sarah Silverman is a comedian, she's an American comedian. And she put something, this is when the ex was known as Twitter. So she put something out on Twitter and I can't remember what it was. She had somebody and it was a man and he was just all for what he had written. And she turned around and she said, what are you in pain off? And it opened up this whole conversation with him goes, I'm in pain because of my back and I'm stuck on this meds and it's horrible and I don't like it. And then it just opened a different conversation completely. But that's an example of somebody asking a question. So if you ask the questioning communication, you might get a response that's not what you expect. No. And I think it's really interesting. My view of people in general is that you don't, you're not nasty to people. If you truly have a good sense of self worth, you don't need to make other people feel bad in order to make yourself feel better.

13:26But I do think we live in an interesting world. And you know, when I think back, I was talking about this this morning, I mean, in the internet's only been around for a short period of time, relatively speaking. And that previously, you know, if you wanted to communicate, you either use the one telephone that was in the hall on a curly wire or you wrote a letter. And by the time you've written a letter, you had had time to get yourself in check. And so would read the letter and think, am I going to send that? Or am I going to do something different? But it's so easy. But also writing the letter sometimes, if it's negative or not positive, just that act of writing it out, you feel so much more therapeutic about it. And it's released. Absolutely. And it doesn't need to be sent very often. Yeah. But here's a romantic story about communication. Cool. So when I was living in the States, I met this gentleman, very, very, very young. But this gentleman was talking to my mom and he was very excited because his son was going to get engaged.

14:28But his son and his future daughter-in-law lived in very different states, like miles away. And before the internet, you know, and phones were very expensive. So they used to record messages on little tiny, dictaphone tapes and send them to each other. So you could hear the voice. Because that's the other thing that- Now romantic. As wonderful when you're talking about text, for example, how often those are misunderstood, misconstrued. I always talk about the fact that we're talking now. We've both got a blueprint for every word that we use. And we assume most of us that everybody's blueprint's the same as ours. But ultimately, within our conversation, we're coming to a shared blueprint of what we mean, because we're actually having a dialogue. But you can't do that with text. You can't do that with social media. And so you end up with a communication where one's intentions aren't always what's received. Which I think may change a little bit, but not fully, with AI.

15:33So more and more people are actually using AI as their personal friend, personal advisor, and going, oh no, I have to send this message. And this is what I'm saying. And then the AI will come back and say, reword it like this. Do you want it warm or do you want it like this? What it cannot pick up is little nuances that you would just add into some sort of text conversation, whether it's through an emoji, or at the moment, or just a little joke, because at the moment, it won't fully understand that level of humanity. But I'm going to stop because we're going to go for a short break now. When we come back, I want to talk about communication in more general terms. And I do want to talk about AI, but I'd like to start with communication. And let's start with nonverbal communication. And then work our way through verbal and then AI. So don't go away.

16:33We've got so much more to talk about. See you in a minute. In fact, one in five of us live with mental illness. Don't filter who you are. Start by talking to someone you trust. And remember, there is no normal. Welcome back. We're talking about communication. And I would like to explore the power, if you like, of nonverbal communication. I mean, the research shows it's in the middle 50s percent of a communication when we are actually face-to-face. Talk us through your view of how face-to-face nonverbal communication works and why that's so important. Nonverbal communication is critical because people are picking up signals

17:34and making judgments subconsciously. I mean, not even be conscious of the decisions that they're making and the judgments. So it first starts out with the environment that you're in and the outfit that you're wearing. Okay. And I still think that still has some sort of impact on judgment. Now, I am coming from a Gen X perspective. How much is it? So a Gen Z or a Menelian? I love it. They'll have a different perspective on outfits, but that's what they may say, but I just don't think they will, because if somebody is still very well dressed or has a certain accessory, you know, a luxury handbag, for instance, they're still going to make a judgment call on it. Because that's the judgment calls back everything, don't we? Exactly. So that's the first thing. The next thing is it is how you hold yourself, how you've entered the room. Again, you will give an indication of how confident you are. So I will always say, you know,

18:36no matter how scared I am of walking into room, and that still sometimes happens. I will walk in confidently and I will try and put my energy into the room straight away in that positivity and go, and I am high energy in bubbly when I am around people. It's not intentionally done. That's just who I am when I'm around people. But it's infectious as well. So they will pick up on your energy, you know. And then it's really how you beat somebody. Are you looking them in the eyes? How measured are you in your conversation? I remember Michael Cain giving this advice in the way he speaks particularly in acting. And he said it was one of the characters. I can't remember which one it was he was playing. But he said somebody here once told him if he really wants to be taken seriously in that dialogue to slow it down. And if you compare it to Alfie, it's very fast. Yes. Because that's the character it is.

19:37So it's very, it's so it's really important to understand when to vary that tone and that's more verbal. But it's it stems from the non-verbal and how you're holding yourself. And that's one of the reasons why sales people will stand when they're doing sales call rather than sitting because the body language, the energy that comes from that standing or walking about is very different when you're sitting in your sedentary. Yeah. They say you can hear a smile on the phone even if they can't see it, they can hear it. Well, it certainly warms the tone of voice, you know, the all your bones in your face lift, your styluses open up in a very different way. And also the smiling, for instance, when you're walking into a room and you're speaking to people smiling, just, you know, just warms you up to it. But then there's other cues that you should look for in body language is when you have walked into a room or you are speaking to people, even if it's a one to one,

20:39it's watching their body language, okay? If they are turning away from you, their feet, their legs or something, they're not really accepting what you're saying, okay? But if they're fully forward and it's also your body language, if you're fully forward and present, I am listening to you. I am interested in what you're saying. So those little cues are really important. Yeah. It's always how you can leave the person. It's more of a physical thing really because it's not just the words that you're using because there is so much more they're taking on board by looking at your facial expressions than your body. I mean, body language is an interesting one and when I'm teaching people, I will teach them a couple of archetypes, you know, whether that's a medieval royal, what you expect to be heard, that you're standing straight, that your shoulders are back, you know, or a warrior, but a warrior, not that's being aggressive,

21:39but one that's simply standing and the expectors don't mess with me because there's no point. I'm giving people that opportunity to experience what it feels like to be in a confident pose because for those people who lack confidence, often they don't have a point of reference to know what does it feel like? Well, how would I stand if I was feeling confident? Well, you've had the benefit of meeting me in a room when we didn't know each other. Yes, you know. Yeah. And so I think that non-verbal part is very important, but equally, I think, when you're, for example, sitting in a boardroom and you know people, then it's not always just the non-verbal, it is very much the verbal. Well, we're going to move on to verbal and we're talking about the tone of voice, the pace of your voice, the silences are so telling and then the words that you use. So talk us through your view of, you know, how communication done well,

22:40what that looks like sounds like. Communication when it's done well, every party, either in a neutral position or in a happy position. You don't, you don't have to be happy or related, but if it will leave you in a, huh, or a nice kind of happy position. When it's done badly, both parties or all parties are deflated. Yeah. Even if somebody thinks they've scored a point, they aren't deflated. I mean, what strikes you? And you feel that when you're having like, when you're at home, for instance, and you're having an argument with a loved one and you're both exhausted at the end of it, is because the communication wasn't there. You're just saying words. The best way forward, I believe, is where both people feel that they have had a win, that when you go to a point where somebody has won and the other person has lost, then in a sense everybody's lost because you burnt a bridge, you have broken that relationship to some extent and then in order to move forward,

23:41you've got to find a way to rebuild, whereas if you can find a way of working together, doesn't mean you have to agree wholeheartedly, but something where both parties feel they've been heard, they both feel that their point of view has been validated, then you can walk away and feel good. That's why mediation works, not just works on such a grand level, because the mediator's role is to listen to each party and then help them facilitate, the mediator does not make a decision, does not make a judgment, but they help each party to facilitate them to move closer together, to get a resolution. And that's when I know when there's a good result because both parties would be like, they haven't felt like they've lost, lost, may not feel like 100% of a win, but they're just glad it's done, it to a satisfactory level. Can you give us perhaps a couple of examples where people were, as you've started mediation

24:45and how you've helped them move forward into a place where they are actually able to... Oh my god, so the start of a mediation can vary, but... We can already have people going, I'm not agreeing with you, and there is a lot of yelling, a lot of screaming, a lot of high emotion, I am right, they're wrong, they don't know what they're doing, from both sides or more than one side sometimes. Yes, so it is very, very high and very intense emotionally. I mean, they really are so angry, and you have to then help them, and this is when you listen to them. Yeah. They need to be heard, and then you need to understand what has been said, not just the words, the emotion, the consequences of what that emotion means to them, and you need to frame it and give it back to them.

25:45So they know they have actually been heard and understood, and their points have been understood. So it would be helpful to actually have, we don't need their names, but an example of where people were and what was going on, and how you've walked them through to a resolution. Let's give a hypothetical. So hypothetical could be that somebody's paid some money in advance, and then didn't get the full service and wants to remain the back, and they're allowed under, they believe, they're allowed under the contract. The other part is like, you paid your money, we gave you what you want, you're not getting it. The person who wants their money back, they will say, these are the documents, this is what we said, this is when they said it, this is why I should get the money back because they agreed XYZ. And I would go, yes, completely see that perspective. Okay. This is what's happened, and actually when this happened, I bet you felt like this, now they may not have articulated the emotion, but I know what that emotion is. So I'm articulating, they're now getting really to be understood,

26:48and I need to really, truly do understand their position, because if I don't, then I've missed something, and I can't help them. So I really need to understand what they're feeling, what they're saying. Now, the advantage I have as a lawyer, is I also understand law, whether it's international or not. And the contract, so that you can tell whether it's law. And the contract, so that you can tell whether it's law. But I'm not there as a lawyer, I'm just there, as a mediator. So I would then say, what would you like me to say to them? Can I ask are these people both physically present, or is this okay? So what happens is, you have one large room, which is usually my room, and I'll invite both parties, and they're representatives to that room. And we all do opening statements, and I will tell them how the day is going to progress. There have been times when I can't do that, and they are so angry, I have to start the day separated rooms. So you're referring before you mediate? Yes. So then I separate them into their own rooms, and I will go into each room and listen to them. They will then agree with me, what I can put to the other party. Okay, so there's still a set sense

27:49that they have control over what you're presenting to the other party. Oh, they have full control over what I present. I cannot present anything without their consent. Right. And they can tell me things that I just can't tell the, can't diverge, or divulge to the other side. Right. Okay, so everything is confidential with me. And then by the way, at the end of the mediation, I completely forget everything. Well, you'd need to, wouldn't you, too? I don't be able to understand, it was like an exam. I can't remember. So bearing in mind, I'm sure you've had people who are so polarized in their view of what's right. How do you move them from that opening statement to a place where they can both find a way forward? Yes, so it's questions. Questions and questions and questions. So say if you're in an argument with a loved one, for example, you know, you could say, okay, what is the outcome that you really want to achieve on this, you know? So that gives very to interrupt you, but do you find that often people aren't sure

28:51what the outcome is that they really want? No, they're very sure at the first. Okay. Is that the outcome at the end that they still want? No, no, no, completely different, completely different. So not necessarily completely 100%, but it's a difference, creativity of what they wanted. Okay. So, and then you can say, you can, it's just asking them lots and lots of questions of, you know, depending on each scenario, well, if I put this to them, what do you think they're going to say to it? They're going to say it's why I'm sad. Okay. So how do you think I should present it to them? What should I say? You know, I'm the advocate right for you. So it's, and then they start thinking along of what the other party's thinking. And that slowly moves the conversation to a different place. And the same in an argument at home, you know, in mother, child, whether or partners, you can say, actually, what you're saying,

29:54I may not fully understand. I think I've understood it, but I might be wrong. What is it that you're saying? And then I can tell you what I'm saying, and then we can see if there's any common ground. That's a very quiet listening. That's a great place to stop, but it does require huge amounts of listening. And I think it's a conversation I want to carry on when we come back, because so many families become completely dysfunctional because they are not communicating in a way that is helpful. And then that's true in a professional life. It's true at a political level. You know, it's every strata of society. But it always comes back to an individual level. So I think it's really helpful for us to spend a bit more time on that. Don't go away, we'll be back in just a minute. Brushwood, meeting at work. Last week, Brandon met a girl on a dating app. One day after work, he finally found the courage

30:55to ask her out. No answer. He started to panic. Was he being too pushy? Maybe it was too sweet. Hey, sorry, I didn't respond. I was driving. I would love to go on a date. How does tonight sound? Brandon tried to play it cool, but inside he knew a girl so smart, so responsible. She must be a thief. Welcome back. To rush me, you were sharing with us this business that if you ask the right questions and people have the opportunity to shift their thinking to the question rather than their stance at the beginning, that that can change things. If you think about our listeners and there'll be those who are in challenging circumstances, whether that's with the partner, with their family as a whole, whether that's their nuclear or broader family, or maybe at work. What advice have you got for them if they're in a situation where they feel stuck

31:55because they feel at odds with other people? If you feel so. So the question is, what should they do if they feel stuck or the language that they should use with those? Oh, really. I think what advice are you going to get? If somebody feels stuck in any type of relationship, whether it's a work relationship or otherwise, part of the way we approach things, or most people approach things, is they are the problem and the person at the same time. And we have to actually separate you, the person, from the issue. How do you do that? So instead of framing it in your mind as you always do this, or this always happens, or you never do this, you know? And then it's what I call the kitchen sink, right? On a personal level and in a workplace. We have one issue that really annoys us or is causing us problem. But what we do when we articulate it is we refer it to, this is my issue and you're doing this to me. And then we add everything else,

32:55or the little bits into it. So the kitchen sink gets full and actually let's not use the kitchen sink. Let's just attack one issue. And one issue should be, it's like this situation isn't working for me. Or this has an impact and this is the impact it's having. So it's taking it away from the person, not you're doing this or you're making this. No, because the minute you say you, it's very personal. People are naturally, you just say you are, and that's it, you're already defensive, right? So let's take the dishwasher, as a small example, right? The play on the side is not in the dishwasher, it's on the side, you know, but it's the mental labor of the person who has to pick up and remember to go and pick it up and then put it in the dishwasher and it's not their play. So I'm just saying you always do this and I've asked you, yeah, right? And so saying the situation with the plates on the side has a detrimental impact on me because it's causing additional labor,

33:57additional work, and I have to remember, would you mind assisting me and not with my workload and reducing it for me by putting the dish in the dishwasher? Now that sounds very reasonable. I want to add another element to this. In my experience working with people in a coaching situation, often something like the dishwasher is not the issue, it's the straw that breaks the camel's back and they've not confronted the issue because they don't want to be confrontational. They don't see there's a difference and so things build up and build up and build up and then there's a blooming plate on the side and that's the, that's it. You're not dreaming, but it's not the play in the tone. You can tell when somebody's aggravated because the tone's too high. Yes, right? So then you go, what's the real problem? It's, just talk to me, just talk to me, just tell me everything, but you have to listen. You cannot come in to fix the problem

34:59because you don't know if either person wants you to fix it or they just want to be seen or just heard. Very true. You've got to stay silent and truly actively listen. And if you find yourself going off on the active listening, you've got to bring yourself back in. Many people find it very difficult to listen actively and that's true in every context. You know, that you're busy looking to create your answer rather than listening to the person and what they have to say. I believe it's one of the biggest gifts you can give anybody is to hold that space and listen to them and doing so can solve so many problems. Active listening is really, really difficult. I think active listening nowadays is even harder because I think screen time and everything being instant has, in my opinion, not helped with active listening. But it's something that needs practicing. You have to have a conversation with nose screens,

36:01go out for a coffee tea, whatever it is. And you need to just have communication, but this is why we are concerned I have is I've seen so many people the way they communicate is actually just through text messaging or some sort of, you know, whether it's telegram, WhatsApp or text, but or emails. But the problem with that is you're reading, you're not listening because if you listen, you pick up on a motion. If you pick up on what's really happening, you can see the body, if the body's even if the voice is calm, if the body's giving something away, how hurt that person is may just be in the need of a hug. Yeah, I believe that every word we speak has an energy behind it. And I think that when you are listening, you can take on board that energy behind the word. So the example I give and people who listen to my show will be very familiar with this. If you think of the word, thank you. And that word can be, thank you for coming on the show.

37:03It's an absolute pleasure. As opposed to thank you, they're very different energies. And it's so much easier when you're listening to pick up and I've given an extreme example, but you can pick up subtle nuances in a way that you can't do through the written word. Yeah, absolutely. We've got a few minutes before our last break. I want to start talking to you about AI because I know many people are incredibly fearful of it, little realizing that AI's been around in all sorts of forms for some time and that we can't ignore it. It's how do we use it as a tool rather than it using us? So what's your view of AI and communication? So is AI using us? Not at the moment, AI is coming, I think we're coming from more of a collaborative state. At the moment, it is a tool predominantly, can be an assistant. So it can assist us. It can be a tool that we just use,

38:04either form, even with robotics. It still requires human emotion and human judgment. So let's take, I did an article in the Yorkshire person, a columnist as well for a newspaper. And I was at a conference and the man said, oh, I want to replace my personal assistant. Everything she does at an AI can do now. And actually, that's the wrong approach because what the AI won't be able to do is put a judgment call in. And I'll give you an example. If the assistant is doing everything for this person, including pulling in spreadsheets and doing data analysis on what I have you, but also managing the diary, they're not going to, the AI is not going to know that really, maybe you shouldn't have a dentist appointment here if you're going to see your kid later because you might have some dental work and then you won't be there for your child, especially if you're divorced. And that's the one day you're going to see the child that week. Yeah. AI is not going to do that. It's just going to put it in the diary. It's not going to have that. So humans are required for judgment, you know.

39:07As a lawyer, we're using AI already, you know, for some of our work. And it has been around for a long time. It's great as a junior assistant at the moment and it can do a lot of research, but it won't give the experience that I have on negotiations on what words to use in a specific letter to change things around because of the impact it's going to have when the other party receives it. So judgment is really, really critical. And I wrote an article on this about the junior, the people coming into industry around AI and people are complaining or saying, oh God, their jobs are going, you know, the AI can do the assistance work. No, it's just the same as when I started. There was dictation. We had a secretary, Paul. I mean, we were typing. And then we moved to computer, so we were typing. And then, you know, and now we're moving on to AI. It's no, you know, then we had word and Microsoft and Excel.

40:10It's no different. The difference is you are just coming in at a junior level with different skills. And I would say learn as many skills as possible because that is what's going to make you invaluable because that is going to help you with your judgment calls later as you get experience. So at the moment, did we be fearful of AI? I'm neutral on it, but I will use it. And I see it as a collaboration. I'm probably less than fearful of it. And I've seen how it's worked very well, but equally, I know about stories, but alleged stories were chatbots, chatbots. And I think there is a court case going through that have been speaking to young boys and has ended very badly because the chatbot has said correct things to protect humans. So, but then that's not AI's fault. That is the, that is whoever's controlling the systems is therefore. So where we have AI with imagery

41:12and that's a big thing in the UK legislation at the moment about deep fakes, it's not everyone's saying you're trying to control AI. We're not controlling AI. It's the teacher. It's the users and it's the prompts. And so they need to be held responsible. And I think that's a really good point around the responsibility. And we're going to go for our last break. And I think there's a huge responsibility in communication of any sort, but I'd like to come back to the AI in responsibility because I think there's some, there's more things to just explore. So don't go away. We'll be back in just a moment. Philip Eiffish from a dish. The big Mac down a cul-de-sac. I believe it under a drying rack. Veggie Deluxe in power cuts. Cheese bites, erratic nights. Girk and Flurton. Wraps from cat flaps, nugs on rugs.

42:15Or a share box to the river, because now we deliver. Welcome back. Before the break, you were talking about the fact that it's not the technology per se, but how it's designed, the safeguards that are there, how it's being used. And I think, you know, if you look at pretty well anything, it's not the technology or the tool that's upfold, but how it's used by human beings. And I think for me, the safeguard is, let's look at the humanity of what we are doing and how we use it. And you talked about the, you know, the fact that on X, there's the capacity to create fake sexualized images and how damaging that can be. But it's down to us as a society, to decide, I believe, at what level is acceptable in terms of what this AI,

43:18how this AI is behaving. Let's put it that way or how it's created. But it also can be incredibly helpful if it's used well. And if we maintain our humanity in the way in which it's designed and used, that's my view. But I'm very happy to hear a different view or you may think the same. I think saying society at large is quite large. So from, from an ESG perspective, and I set as the charter director of governance, if I was on a board or an organization or working for governments, what would I be looking for? And having served in the UK cabinet office, I understand policy and legislation as well. So I would probably say that every organization should come from governance perspective of, how do we look after our society and our environment, okay? So AI does use a lot of water. It is the use that nobody sees. It is the use that nobody acknowledges.

44:18Every user, every time we do a prompt, hey, I want to see what my image looks like on this. AI generated, we are using water. It is a shock, you, because it's the first time that they've ever heard of that. Talk us through why and what's going on. It says the servers that, for instance, Gemini, ChatGPT or whoever it is, the servers are huge. Yeah. They're absolutely, and they're trying to get all this information. They've had to put these servers into, for instance, a state, I can't remember which one it is, but there is a lot of water to cool them down. Oh, right. I just assumed huge amounts of energy to run them, but I hadn't thought about the water situation. The water is the bigger issue. Okay. Because water is a finite source. We don't have ends of it. And also what kind of pollution is going into it. So there is an issue around the water that nobody really is fully talking about yet.

45:19And it's not registered on such a ground level as the basic user that every time I do this, there is water. But in order for the ground users to use it, there's got to be the big machine somewhere that actually generates the water you're using. And so that has to be something that people need, the organizations and governments need to consider. The second aspect of it is the impact it has on society and where do we want society to go? And what is the ethical point of governance, right? So it is going back to most organizations' vision if you're a company, but in the government, the government's primary coming from a UK perspective, almost European perspective would be, is really to safeguard our society and to ensure that they have access to this but also protected against bad users. So it doesn't impact the innocent, they don't become victims.

46:20And that's where the policy and the governance comes into and what you find when people push back on it, they say, well, you're trying to curtail freedom of speech, you're trying to do this, you don't know where we're going yet, but we do, we do know what the impact is. We already know what the impact could be. We've seen what it's doing. So having legislation in place penalized the user who has created either a deep vague or not controlling their chatbot and it's giving out messages to young people to cause harm to themselves, that's something that potentially should be considered and looked into. Now, we're talking about communication and people might think, well, you've gone pretty well off the topic, but I believe we haven't because at the essence of all of this is the ways in which we as human beings communicate with one another, you know, every AI, every chatbot, every social media platform, it comes down to the communications

47:20that are at the user end and the impact that they're having positive, negative and neutral. And so what we're doing, I believe, is taking communication into another arena, but the principles of is my intention in terms of what I want to communicate, being understood by the other person in the same way, is there a moral ground where our values are being met? And so I think that whatever means of communication we're talking about face-to-face, whether we're talking about text, social media, using AI or not, at the heart of that is how we communicate with one another. I agree. And the thing is, though, with morals, we come back to critical thinking. We do, because someone else as morals and ethics are going to be very different to mine,

48:20depending on which part of the country they're in, depending on their culture and the regime they've been living in. The absolutely our background are, you know, the way, but digitalization makes us global. And so having that understanding that people are coming from a different point of view makes communication so much more important, but at the same time, it makes it much more challenging. Yes. How do we move forward? What's, you know, if you could weigh the magic wand, what are the things that you would want to see happen? In terms of AI or communication generally? Do both. So communication generally, I would love to see more actual conversations taking place face-to-face, because I think the more conversations that take place face-to-face, you can go off on a tangent, which is really important, because you get a better understanding of the person. Mm-hmm. And you get a different vibration when you're in the room, having a conversation with somebody,

49:21you pick up on the non-burble cues a lot more. It's very difficult to do it over a messaging or even over a Zoom, for instance, because you only get to see part of the body. And that's an extra challenge these days, because so many people work from home and work remotely. Yes, they miss out on the water cooler talk, which I think is a very critical part of the day, because that's the bit that really keeps people going. Mm-hmm. That, you know, hey, did you watch this program? Have you seen this? What did you do over the weekend? Well, even if you get into a Zoom call or a Teams call, you're like, oh, hey, how was your weekend good? But then you feel very like you have to get into it. Yeah, yeah. You know, well, actually, you might meet somebody and go, oh, just getting a cup of coffee, would you like one, you know, and there's running into somebody in the kitchen, you know, when you're getting a cup of tea coffee. And so it's those things I think are really, really critical. That's what I would like to see. In terms of AI, I think at the moment, there is an argument to say it really does need

50:23some regulation around it and how it's being used and how it's impacted. But we've been talking about, if we're not talking about AI, we've been talking about social media for a long time, just on how it impacts the teenagers. Mm-hmm. And that's still not been fully developed. And I think if there's no point in saying, you know, if we'd handled such a media better, we'd be better placed for AI. The point is we are here now. We are where we are. Where do we go forward? And we have to act quickly because I think otherwise, it's not going to be a situation where people are going to agree to. And you can say, well, I'll find you, but if people don't pay and don't do anything, there's something you can do. No. Maybe we're at the end of our time together, but it's really important that you let people know where can they find you if they want to know more about what you do or to make contact with you. You can find me on my LinkedIn profile, which is just my name, RushMeDubay. And you can find me on my website,

51:25which is again, my name, RushMeDubay.com. Brilliant. Thank you very much. And just remind people of the books that you have written in the past. Yes. So I wrote a book called Making a Splash, a personal guide to networking. And that's found on Amazon. And it was pre-social media. So very much based face networking. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Now, we're very proud to belong to an organization, which is called B1G1 by one give one, which makes kindness part of your branding. They have projects around the world which are incredibly well vetted. They're all about giving people a hand up, not a handout. And I invite each of my guests to choose one of four themes. I choose different projects each month but donate on your behalf to the themed project that you choose. And the four areas are clean water, education, health and rearforestation. Which of those would you like us to donate to on your behalf? Oh my God, they're also good. It's a great organization.

52:26And if you're listening to this and you've got a business and you want to make kindness part of your branding, go and have a look. B1G1, capital B, number one, capital G, number one.com. Please do mention to them that you've heard about it on the show. I'll go with education. Okay, brilliant. I can change the world, can't I? Yeah, absolutely. And remember, just by listening to the show, you're making a difference because we donate to the meals to the hungry based on the number of listeners. So please do spread the word. I'd like to offer you as listeners and opportunities to download, to have a download of PDF of my leadership blueprint. It's leading your life, yourself and leading others. You can have a free copy of that. You simply need to email me at Gina, Gardiner and friends at gmail.com, put blueprint in the subject line and we'll send you a PDF. And I just love hearing from you what you're up to, of the things you like about the show, what you'd like more or less of,

53:28then please use the body of the email to let me know. So that's Gina Gardiner, G-I-N-A, G-A-R-D, I-N-E-R, the word and the word friends at gmail.com. And finally, remember my other show. If you are a really great musician and you would like four of your tracks played and the opportunity to share your musical journey, then complete the form, which is Gina Gardiner tomorrow'stalented.com. It just remains for me to say, rush me, thank you very much for joining you on the show today. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening, we'll see you on the next show. Bye bye now. Thanks for listening to Gina Gardiner and friends. The show that helps you live a happier, more successful and fulfilling life. To learn more about Gina Gardiner, go to genuinely-u.com. If you would like to work with Gina or book her as a speaker, email her at Gita at genuinely-u.com.