Generation Global EP7: What BRICS means for you

0:00Discussion keeps the world turning. This is Round Table. In India this week, a room full of leaders will sit down under a banner that started as a shorthand for five emerging economies. Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa. Well that was the original list, but it isn't anymore. The guest list has grown and so has the ambition. Trade, tech, climate, jobs, all of it folded into one agenda. But step back from the summit photos for a moment and there's a simpler question sitting underneath all of it. Does any of this reach the rest of us? Fefe puts that question to Li Lun, an assistant professor at Peaking University who studies the digital economy. Coming to you live from our studios in Beijing, this is Round Table. I'm Steve Hatherley, thank you so much for sharing your time with us today and for the show I'm with you Shen and Fefe. What started as an economic acronym for Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa has

1:04grown into a much broader platform, bringing together more countries and increasingly economies, businesses, and people from across the global south. But what does that actually mean for you or for me? How can a mechanism like Briggs affect our daily lives, from the economy and jobs to technology and climate change? And perhaps more importantly, what are young people most worried about today and can Briggs offer any real solutions to those worries? That's what we're exploring today, or should I say that's what Fefe is exploring today because she spoke with Li Lun, an assistant professor with Peaking University. His research has a keen focus on digital economy and I ask you now to please enjoy their chat. When it comes to the corporation and the mechanism called Briggs, so we also found a little bit of overwhelmed by such a big topic. So that's the reason we went online, went on our social media platforms and started

2:05a poll and the biggest two concerns for them, one is economic uncertainty and the second one is climate change. So here is where I want to start our conversation with economic uncertainty. We have a lot of problems issues currently in this world. So what kind of mechanism like the Briggs actually make a difference in people's everyday life, I guess, when it comes to the economic development side of things like jobs, income, opportunities, one and so forth. Yeah, so first of all, thanks a lot for inviting me. I think this is, as you mentioned, a very important topic and also a very interesting one for me. And as you said, you know, there are a lot of economic uncertainty right now and I do think that what the Briggs country can do is actually to kind of maintain a more stable global environment because when it comes to businesses, for example, they are usually

3:06more willing to invest if they are sure that, for example, they could anticipate that there's for whatever product they're selling, they have a reliable consumer market, they could anticipate what the production cost is. They can hire high-skill labor to manufacture these goods locally. So basically, the stability when it comes to economic stability, political stability, trade stability, these stability is usually what companies, you know, foreign investors are looking at when they're making the decision. So I think what Briggs countries could really help is to help maintain these stability when it comes to stable trade relationships, when it comes to, you know, investment decisions and make, for example, the conditions for local, you know, environment more predictable. For example, when it comes to infrastructure, when it comes to access to internet, to electricity, when it comes to the local supplier network, when it comes to more predictable

4:06consumer markets. So I think for other people, this would mean that, you know, there's going to be more secure employment opportunities and also, you know, we're in an era where there's a lot of geopolitical tension, there's a lot of disruptions everywhere, but the more stable you are, basically the less exposure to these disruptions, there's going to be, and also I think, you know, in terms of collaboration, it's also very important, especially when it comes to the practical obstacles that's holding some opportunities back. For example, as I mentioned, electricity. So if you have a unreliable electricity network, if you have very expensive logistics or transportation system, it could really prevent a small business or, you know, a foreign investor to enter in this, your country, or to expand their production. This is where, you know, the comparative advantage of different countries are going to create this mutual benefit. For example, China's capabilities in manufacturing and also in building the infrastructures.

5:11India have a lot of expertise in digital services. Brazil, for example, have a lot of knowledge and capabilities in agriculture. So just to name a few. So these comparative advantages are going to be useful when it comes to more developing countries where basically countries can collaborate together and use whatever skills that they're best at and provide these healthy ecosystem to provide, you know, the opportunities that's needed for small businesses, for workers. But I mean, I agree this is a very important topic. So I think, you know, maintaining this conversation and having this, you know, network through tricks and through also the collaboration of the entire global South countries is very important. Since you mentioned, for example, the use of electricity and the stability of the electricity network, basically in a particular country or region, what I find very interesting and sort of linked to the next biggest concern of our pool at least is about climate change.

6:16And when it comes to climate change, the use of cooling technologies or other similar climate solutions out there, I'm not going to say that these kind of technologies or solutions are not available. They are available and we have an on some level abundance of such technologies yet for the global South or breaks countries. How to make them affordable and accessible, I think is one of the factors that are sort of filling these concerns among young people these days. So do you think by the collaboration that you mentioned, maintaining dialogues, building more such networks, more breaks countries or more the wider global South can actually help lower the costs, for instance, for some green technologies? I do think that the opportunities, you know, is very clear in the sense, for example, I can give you an example of solar panels.

7:16So China's investment manufacturing scale and also through years of competition have also, of course, through the technological improvements as well, have really made the solar panels really, you know, affordable. So according to a report from the International Renewable Energy Agency, the average cost of electricity from new solar projects are falling by almost 90% between 2010 to 2025. So basically, the clean energy is more affordable, it's a more profitable or attainable investment, especially for developing countries. And I mean, installing these solar panels are not very difficult and a lot of countries, for example, in Africa, in the areas where the climates are getting hotter and hotter, actually installing these solar panels have some side benefits as well because there are researchers that found that, you know, installing these solar panels in extremely arid climates can help the local plants to grow from the shades of these solar panels.

8:20And also, you know, installing these solar panels, it's also a very productive capital because it could convert the local sunshine into electricity and it's a long-term investment because over many years, you know, it's very sustainable. If you are a farming community, you could use the power it generates to, for example, to use for irrigation, for storage, for the local machines. If you're a small business, it could also reduce the spending on electricity bills, fossil fuel. So I think, you know, having more applications through these cheaper equipments that's brought by the innovation from China, from other BRICS countries, it could definitely be a mutually beneficial cooperation. And also, I think when it comes to the investment, you know, countries are already providing all of these affordable equipments, affordable financing, also in terms of building the electricity networks, building the storage, training for the technicians who can actually install and

9:23maintain these systems. So I do think that buying the equipments is not the only part of the story. You basically need to have the entire system to maintain these, the installation of these, for example, the green energy production and also to become a sustainable producer and even innovator of these technologies. But I do think that having those infrastructure, having the first step of actually adopting these technologies and basically using these technologies in part of their entire power grid is very important, but also in terms of drawing research, having more engineering training, have a lot of, you know, local suppliers as well, you know, in the process of this development and installment. This could also help the countries becoming more independent and really having their own solutions. I want to follow up here is about, you know, we're doing see the biggest gap is, if for these developing countries, if they want to really improve and scale up their adoption

10:26of green technologies. You mentioned like talent training, for instance, I get that can be one of them, but do see other gaps are still existing there that can be, I mean, the potential future opportunities for young people. Yeah, so I think, you know, for these renewable energy, for example, usually there's a big fixed cost upfront installation fee for these equipment. So basically the economic model is that you pay the investment or the installation fee upfront and then basically the firms keep generating power over the long horizon of time. But you know, sometimes the lack of financial support, the lack of policy support to finish this, you know, in initial installation is, I think, sometimes the obstacle. So without these actual infrastructure, it's hard to generate, you know, the jobs, it's hard to generate the demand for these talents and also when it comes to education, when it comes to upstream suppliers. So you basically are lacking in the entire supply network that's supporting this industry.

11:31And it's not limited only to green energy. It's also, for example, when it comes to manufacturing, when it comes to other, you know, innovation-driven technologies and so on and so forth. So yeah, I do think, you know, the gap is sometimes, you know, making the first step. So taking basically the initial investment to actually create a, is still a industry in its early stages, but making the first step and actually, you know, fostering these young people. And another question we got is from a young entrepreneur from South Africa. His name is Lita. Hello, my name is Lita Sam Sam and I'm from South Africa. I am the founder and the managing director of Reloxion, Mobile Library, a youth led to trust organization based in Cape Town. The briefs agenda that interests me most is youth development, particularly how digital technology, education and entrepreneurship can create opportunities for young people

12:35in township and rural communities. Through my work, I have seen that young people already have ideas, energy and strong commitment to improving their communities. However, they need access to quality education, digital tools, funding mentorship and minimal opportunities to participate in decision-making. My expectation for briefs is to see stronger collaboration between member countries that tends discussions into practical action. Young people should not only be invited to attend global conversations, we should be trusted as partners in designing and implementing the solutions. From South Africa, my message is simple, when young people are equipped and included, they can transform the communities and contribute to a stronger shared future. Today, I read to Morrow, Lita. Thank you. Lita keeps coming back to basically one word, which is opportunities. I think you answer part of his concerns in the previous discussion that we have.

13:43I want to dig a little deeper on the access about digital tools, because that's the world we're living today, that we're seeing the fastest growth of some most advanced technology into this world, which I think can be the coin with two sides, that we are seeing the probably the biggest potential where humanities can touch into this world. But also, we are also seeing a widening gap of digital divide, especially when it comes to young people like Lita coming from rural communities or township from South Africa, which is part of the global south. So how do you think Cambridge realistically narrowed this digital gap and really help this young people to take advantage of digital technologies and create more opportunities that they want? Yeah, there's good questions.

14:45So first, I do like to describe the divide that you mentioned, because there is substantial divide both between different countries and also within countries. So globally speaking, there are still more than two billion people that are offline. So for internet usage, globally, the usage, the 85% of users in urban areas, citizens in urban areas, have access to internet. In rural areas, that percentage is 58%. It's a global average when it comes to national averages in developing countries, in global south countries, the number is even smaller. And also, I think there's a lot of inequality. So there are people who only have limited mobile data access on their phone versus they could have, for example, high speed internet on their laptop. So I think with different quality of access, it could definitely shape what people can accomplish.

15:46So especially when it comes to, for example, AI, different people have different access to AI models. Some AI models are extremely expensive. That's a problem that's even very obvious in not only in global south countries, but across the globe as well. So when it comes to students, and also when it comes to researchers, universities, what type of AI models they can get access to, what type of, you know, equipments, whether it's a computer with reliable broadband, or whether it's a mobile network. So these kind of things are going to limit people's opportunities and resources to kind of become who they are when it comes to advanced education, when it comes to training potential innovators. So I do think that Brith can support or provide some solutions for these areas, basically in the form of investments in education, in access, in telecommunication, in building these networks.

16:46So I think probably from my interview today, network is a really key word. So having these networks of internet, of electricity, of education or supplier network. So the network that connects everything that provide access to local students, to universities, to communities, to companies, basically when people have access to the outside world, to the AI models, whether it's a open AI model or our open source model from DeepSync, these access are going to really help them to kind of learn on their own and develop their own skills as well. Yeah, I do, I can sort of resonate with the fact that we are seeing students, high school students, for instance, that are building their own robots. And at the same time, there are other younger kids that don't even have access to their internet or even electricity. So I think not only I get a lot of keywords surrounding networks, but also infrastructure, is also something I think a lot of these Bricks countries and developing countries probably

17:50need to catch up if we're talking about future development. We've actually talked and learned a lot about China's efforts when it comes to narrowing the digital divide that we just talked about. I think in China, we have these two groups of people at the same time. We have young students that are building robots in their classrooms. Somebody, for example, in Beijing is learned to code with the help of AI technology in his or her classroom right now. And then on the other side of the story, some are still struggling with basic digital technologies still. I think it's built on the fact that there's a nationwide reduction in poverty levels. So basically, whether we're in the first tier cities or second, third tier cities, people have good access to high-speed internet. Students have access to phones and computers. I think that's more widespread than much more widespread than before.

18:53And for students who are, for example, living on the remote areas in the mountainous areas or in some cases up on a cliff, the roads are built or they're really located to more convenient locations to join the local schools. So basically, I think it's through the improvements of the local conditions that's coming first. And before basically narrowing the gap between, for example, a kid in Beijing versus a kid in more rural areas. And I do think there's more to do, especially I think AI sometimes can be more of an equalizer. Basically, if you have access provided that you have access to these AI models, sometimes it doesn't matter whether you're in a UN or in Beijing. You could still get access to the same level of human knowledge through a very advanced AI model. And that's kind of in some sense, it's going to compensate for the difference in education quality across different provinces. Yeah, I think for a lot of young people, they are not really competing with AI.

19:56They're basically living, learning how to coexist and live with technologies like AI. And probably maybe in the future, new opportunities will be created. And so in this sense, we're talking about the future. When the global south or Bricks countries have established a pretty connected network or technologies in this sense, do you think AI could be an area where these countries, these developing countries have a bigger say when it comes to shaping the global rules and standards, rather than just adopting, was being established? I think my answer is firmly yes, because the Bricks countries and other developing countries, basically, they're going to take a higher percentage when it comes to the share of global GDP, when it comes to the share of global population. So this stronger economic and demographic weight is going to make them a stronger voice in the future.

21:02So I do think that, especially when it comes to different priorities, when it comes to different nations, for example, some countries may need more agricultural AI, where basically it's teaching how to understand the local climates and what local crops they should harvest and grow. And there are countries that need more education tools or an application for communities with very limited connectivity, how to basically improve the governance. So different countries have different priorities and different applications. So these AI, basically, they provide the practical knowledge that could be scarce or hard to learn over traditional methods. If you're, for example, a farmer somewhere, you don't really talk to them any agricultural experts. So if you don't have the AI tools, you really can't really improve your productivity by that much. But having these AI models as a conversational tool as an application,

22:02it's really going to teach you and help you improve whatever area or profession you're in. So I think this collectively, I think AI is definitely going to improve people's knowledge, improve people's productivity, whether you're working as an office worker or if you're working in agricultural or manufacturing. So that spillover is already happened. And I do think that it's expected to have even a larger, more significant impact in developing countries. Yeah, that's a very rosy future that you're just picturing. Very detailed. I think it can definitely help ease a lot of the anxieties from the younger group when it comes to such a faster development of a certain technology. And I do want to wrap up with the last question is about coming back to bricks is also something Lita himself asked is how can young people themselves play a bigger role in the sort of multilateral corporation mechanism like the bricks because when we're talking about

23:06mechanism like the bricks, it sounds something that only the state leaders, politicians or a business leaders, something they need to worry about and participate. But for young people, for people in their 20s or 30s, how to improve their, I mean, participants. When it comes to China's case, for example, I think young people have more sensitivity and also they have a better sense of what's the local problem is, what's the challenges they're facing. For example, some young entrepreneurs in China, especially in rural areas, they, for example, find out that their parents are having these challenges or local problems when it comes to agriculture, when it comes to harvesting certain crops. For example, transporting banana in some of the mountainous areas in China is very difficult. So people start to use drones to transport. So once you identify the local problems that's unique to our country, you could then acquire or adopt the useful skills to build a solution

24:10around it. So just start from the problem that's around you. I use digital tools to basically to make it easier to improve the difficulties or overcome some obstacles and start from there. So I think if young people in all the sectors could actually step up and make a difference in making some part of their life easier for their parents, for their co-workers, and I think having these more young entrepreneurs at the decentralized fashion, overall, you're going to have more business leaders, more voice for the policymakers and more support from the society as well. Because I think it's the young people who should really help to create their future rather than just accepting the future that's given to them. Yeah, so that's a very big important note for a lot of young people. Look around you, look at your community and look at the challenges there and the future opportunity and solutions may lie somewhere in your own place. Thank you Professor Lilun. Thanks for having me. Thank you to Feifei and Professor Lilun for that conversation. Feifei,

25:15that was a good one. And I think we've covered this topic on the show before, but I think it's really important to do every year. We check in with the issues, see how young people are feeling about those issues. Yeah, exactly. I like the Professor mentioned building the networks among these countries. It sounds like very high level. There's something very distant from our everyday life, but when you think about it, after they've building that network among countries and governments and state leaders, what's coming back to us, new projects, possibly innovative ideas coming from another culture and country could actually solve some of your biggest concerns in today's world. So I think it's important to check in on such cooperation or such bigger frameworks once in a while to see what's been happening, what's the new changes. Well said and thanks very much for the entertaining conversation as well.