Full Episode - Decoding Missouri’s Election Map Mess + Remembering The “Voice Of A Century”

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem. Running a business is hard enough. Don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. That's software overload. Odo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, fully integrated, easy to use, and built to grow with your business. Thousands have already made the switch. Why not you? Try Odo for free at odo.com. That's odo.com. Did you know every 36 minutes a child in the US is diagnosed with cancer? Which means some of the bravest warriors you'll ever meet aren't professional athletes or superheroes. They're the kids in this fight. That's why I'm proud to support Hyundai Hope on Wheels. For the past 28 years with support from Hyundai, their dealers, and every new Hyundai sold, Hope on Wheels has contributed over $300 million to childhood cancer research,

1:03helping save more than 40,000 kids. But we're not done yet. Let's bring every warrior home. Join our fight at HyundaiWoyers.com. Fightin' to a stacked sandwich made with hero bread. And the only thing you'll think is delicious. You won't think it has up to 19 grams protein, 7 to 32 grams of fiber, or just 0 to 5 grams net carbs. But it does. Hero bread. No compromises, just low of spuns, tortillas, bagels, and noodles packed with flavor. Right now, get 10% off at Hero.co with code iHeart. That's H-E-R-O dot CO code iHeart. All figures for serving of Hero Bread. See nutritionpacks on Hero.co. This is Tony A.O. from the Real Report with Tony A.O. on Uncle Murder. You haven't noticed how everything keeps going up, rent, streaming, even extra socials at your favorite burrito spot. But with boost mobile, you don't have to play the Willis Go Up Zoom game. Boost mobile offers an unlimited torque, text, and data plan at a price that'll never go up. It's the same price you'll pay for life. Switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up only at boost mobile.

2:03After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the boost unlimited plan. This episode of the Chuck Todd Cast is brought to you by chapter. Now almost everything you hear about Medicare is somebody quietly trying to steer you somewhere. And you're skeptical of that. And as you should be, I get it. I mean, there's a federal lawsuit going on right now over exactly this. Companies that branded themselves as unbiased while allegedly pointing people toward whatever would pay them the most as some sort of broker. So if your default is to distrust everyone in this space, honestly, I get it. I'm a bit distrustful these days myself. That's the whole reason I want to tell you about chapter. They're independent Medicare advisors whose entire model is that their advisors are not paid to push any one plan. They're just trying to help. Yes, there's compensation that goes with it, but it's across the board is what they're trying to do. At the end of the day, they're advocating for you.

3:04They're not the insurance companies themselves. They're an actual person who actually goes through your doctors, your prescriptions, your needs, and then compares them to every single plan available to find the best one that will work for you and hopefully send it. Save you a couple dollars, too. And here's the part that will that sets chapter apart. They don't disappear once you've been enrolled. They will keep advocating for you. They're kind of like almost like a concierge service. You're just there. I need help. You're like customer service. You know, the plan, you know, help me navigate this again. So you ever get hit with a wrongful medical bill. They'll help you fight it. They want to stay an advocate for you even after you've done this. So look, I get it. I think there's all sorts of space. You see a lot of people are throwing themselves in this healthcare space. What I like about these chapter folks, I've spent time with them. This is a very transparent organization. It is Medicare and all of its affiliated stuff can be very confusing.

4:04The whole point of this is to make this easier and less confusing. Okay, so look, take the skepticism you already have in all of this. Pointed at your own plan for 20 minutes. It's free. There's no pressure and then call chapter today at 9807343985. Hello there and welcome back to the Wednesday edition of the Chuck Todd cast. Yes, now that the fall season is upon us, I am bringing back my own Wednesday pod. So we will now have Chuck Todd cast episodes dropping on Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. You will have Super Tuesday with my partner, Chris Salisa on Shocking Lee and up Tuesday. And of course, you can catch news fear every Sunday night on the news fear app. And also, I know I've been teasing this and teasing this, but it is now live on YouTube right now.

5:04And you can see it in this feed as well. It is for my Dynastics Sports History podcast, which a day and I have a tremendous conversation about Alabama football with the man himself. The only person other than Nick Sabin, you could call Mr. Alabama football that's living today and it is Paul fine bomb. It was a tremendous conversation. You definitely will, if you're a college football fan or a fan or a history of college sports or you're just love Alabama football. You're going to love this conversation. Yes, even me, even me this this anti SEC Miami hurricane fan did my best to compartmentalize my own personal venom with how the SEC sometimes wants to velvet rope off college football for themselves. I think we do a good job giving Alabama it's due there. But I'm coming in tonight. We're actually taping it's right after our live stream that we had on the New Hampshire primary.

6:05So I want to start with there and look, most of my Wednesday episodes, at least between now and November are going to be very campaign heavy. What's happening on the trail? Well, you know, and that is what I'll be bringing tonight. I've got a fun sort of on one hand kind of an out of the box kind of guest on the other hand. When you hear the topic that we have actually it will make a lot of sense that this interview is in the truck. We'll talk about that in a little bit. Plus I have my top five list. The blue wave blue tsunami test is what the top five list is about. You'll have to check, check it out to get more details there. And of course, I take your question. But let me begin with what if anything we learned out of New Hampshire. And I think the big thing is is that the establishment got its way. And they did so frankly, rather comfortably Chris Papis, who's basically been the Democratic nominee and waiting ever since he announced in the field was relatively cleared.

7:05He helped clear it. Other people cleared it for him as well. There was no doubt that Democrats wanted to try to minimize the risk of losing the seat. Republicans, meanwhile, found themselves the best possible candidate they could get in this environment. With the last name of Sununu, no, not the governor, but the former senator, Johnson, and my friend Jeffrey Skelly noted that if Johnson, who does win this Senate seat, he will, it will be an 18 year gap. The largest gap really in the modern era between service time in the United States Senate, John, he's soon to serve one term in the Senate 2002, where he was recruited to primary, an incredibly vulnerable incumbent at the time Bob Smith. The primary worked. Sununu won the primary and then he goes on to defeat Gene Sheehan in who was the sitting governor at the time for that Senate seat in 2002 six years later, there's a rematch. And which an unusual situation, the challenger won the rematch. That doesn't always happen a lot of times in the Senate rematch is the losing candidate.

8:10Not only comes up short, but usually comes up usually loses by a larger margin than they lost the first time Paul Wellstone, Rudy Boschwitz is my favorite example of that. If you want to go down into the history of those election results, but she ain't won the seat back from Johnny, Sununu in 2008 and she's served in it ever since. Interestingly, her first reelection was against Scott Brown, who was by then the former senator from Massachusetts, he got the nomination in 2014. It was a fairly competitive race, but she survived in a Republican leaning year. And then Scott Brown wanted to run again when this seat opened up and Republicans decided that they did not want to get behind this candidacy, so they went and found themselves as Sununu. And so here we are. And Johnson, who won by a bigger margin than Chris Papis did in his primary. Papis had a progressive primary challenger who did not have much money had no national support. And that's what's that's the most interesting aspect of it's sort of like the dog that didn't bark in New Hampshire.

9:11And the progressive dog didn't bark. And I think it had a lot to do with presidential candidates not wanting to alienate the Shaheen machine. Right. And so the Shaheen machine was basically behind Papis, the Shaheen machine has a candidate in the first congressional district. The district that Papis is vacating and she and Shaheen's daughter was ran in that race. And certainly there was a lot of effort to eke her out into that primary. And so it is interesting that so many outside groups didn't play in this race. And as James Pindal, Boston Globe reporter, a long time New Hampshire reporter. Back when I got to know him, he worked for something called politics and H really is sort of the New Hampshire expert. And you know, he looked at it as if if he were assessing the progressive movement that they really dropped the ball on this one. And they had an opportunity. But you know, this has been, it's been interesting, you know, the, the progressive progressives have had a, you know, Bernie Sanders is one that New Hampshire primary twice, but the progressive movement has not been able to either use that momentum to build off of it in any way.

10:26And so the progressive member of the delegation they've had in sort of this century was Carol shape order who represented one of the two congressional districts. But it is the left has been sort of muted and it's always been kind of muted. And it goes back to the fact that Democrats couldn't win a New Hampshire for an ice age. And then 1996, Jean Shaheen goes from party operative, she cut her teeth, helping Gary Hart pulling upset 1984 is one of his, the Shaheen machine was born at the 84 New Hampshire primary when she essentially resurrected the Gary Hart campaign from the dead. And the legend was born then. And by 96, she had enough chits to actually win office herself. And she broke a near 100 year streak to become a Democratic elected governor there in New Hampshire. So she is the party she created the modern Democratic party. And there's always been an allergy inside that party. Don't go too far to the left. That's how New Hampshire Republicans have successfully elected very conservative statewide office holders in the past. I think they have less luck with that now. The state really is a sort of a center left leaning state, you know, if Democrats go to liberal, that's when a Republican can win. And these days Republicans can't get too far to the right or they struggle to carry that state, right.

11:47Donald Trump's never carried New Hampshire yet we still consider New Hampshire is part of the larger, most competitive part of the battleground. So I think the story of New Hampshire really is how the establishment really did work its magic in both sides of the aisle and kept the outsiders out, if you will, certainly kept them at bay, kept the outside or money from being too involved here the way we've seen outside or money everywhere else. Now the question is how competitive is this race? I had a lot of fun with Jessica Taylor during our livestream. She is the guru behind the Senate ratings for the Cook political report with my friend Amy Walter. And we were doing okay, what's closer to toss up nobody is saying New Hampshire Senate is a toss up between Papas and Sununu, but it's going to be very competitive race. This is going to be a single digit race, probably decided. I think in the somewhere in the four to six point range, if it's closer, that means it's probably been a better net Republican night nationally. And if it's a little bigger, then we'll know it was a better night nationally for the Democrats, but I think we're looking at a 46 point range. So we did this, okay, what's closer to toss up New Hampshire Senate or Kansas Senate.

12:59And then we did New Hampshire Senate or Nebraska Senate, and then we did New Hampshire Senate or Iowa Senate. And so when she did those orders, she had New Hampshire Senate essentially much closer to, I'm much closer closer to toss up than Kansas, closer to toss up than Nebraska, but Iowa close is in her toss up category narrowly. But New Hampshire not there. So that's where she classifies New Hampshire. I'm probably a little more bearish on it, though, I don't want to discount the Sununu name, and I've shared with you, I've known Johnny Sununu a long time. He is just a dude, you know, he, I've gotten to know him. He's a big baseball card collector and he's way into for those of you don't know, he collects all the preworse, all the all the pre pre 1952 stuff. He's a, he's a pre war collector. He loves those, you know, if the, if the set has a T in front of it, he's collecting those. He went time gifted me two tops of Venezuelan cards, which are these very thin, was printed on an extraordinarily thin paper, but in Spanish and stuff. And just, just a fantastic little collector's item, if you care about these things.

14:08In many ways, I always thought, you know, Johnson and his politics were probably a little too conservative New Hampshire, but culturally he was sort of the right kind of quirky. And I say that as a compliment. But it's, it's hard to see, you know, Kelley Ott is a Republican that has figured out how to win that governor's race. But as we've discussed, it is easier to win a governor's race if you're not from where the party, from where the state leans than it is, a federal race where the Jersey color matters a lot. And the thing with Chris Papas, his sin in the primary was he was not considered a progressive. He very much is, you know, he was getting hit for votes that many Republicans supported in the House of Representatives. So he is ideologically well suited. The question is, is he charismatic enough to hold it or does it matter? Right. Is it going to break through? Is this a race that is going to grab the attention of New Hampshire voters and importantly, the New Hampshire independent voters?

15:11I'm a bit skeptical, which is why I think you're going to see everybody will acknowledge this is going to be close. It's kind of like, frankly, how I feel about the South Carolina Senate race. I think it's going to be really close. I think you're making a mistake if you totally ignore it. I feel the same way about New Hampshire. You're making a mistake if you totally ignore it. But eight times out of 10, I know, I think I know who's going to win both races. Right. But if you're talking, you know, it's not, you know, there, it is not a crazy result. It is not some total. It's a surprise, but not a shock. If so, new poll pulled it off. And I feel the same way in South Carolina, if any, Andrews up set, darling Graham, I'd be surprised. It wouldn't be shocked, right. The ingredients. There's a lot of the ingredients you need to pull an upset is sitting there in South Carolina. So that's kind of, I put New Hampshire more in that category that, that sort of these are competitive races. The party that should win is favored to win should win. But these are some pretty good challenger candidates so they shouldn't be ignored. But again, I go back. It is really interesting to me how,

16:23and this is what Pindal kept pointing out, which I think was a smart point, which is how people like in that second tier of presidential candidate on the Democratic side. I think, I think, Rokana, think Chris Van Hollen, think Chris Murphy didn't essentially go against the grain and go against the establishment because he, here's a dirty little secret. The Sheehan machines never get behind a Rokana, the Sheehan machines never get behind a Chris Van Hollen candidacy or a Chris Murphy candidacy. So I kind of think it would have been a free opportunity. And it would have allowed you to stand out in a way that others didn't stand out. But again, I get it. No Democrat wanted to be on the wrong side of the Sheehan family, which may explain why progressives in general didn't get the support in New Hampshire that I think perhaps that voters might have been intrigued and open for. So there's my quick little thing in New Hampshire does not change my overall.

17:26I believe about where the national landscape is doesn't change anything. I said, you know, I still think we're, you know, the most likely scenario is some sort of fairly significant blue wave. The question is just how big can it get, you know, can it look closer to being big rather than closer to being a mirage. Well, that's what we're going to find out in the next eight weeks. And speaking of that, let me unload on a few more items in my notebook, my sort of Wednesday call it the Wednesday campaign notebook. And I want to start in the state of Missouri, because I think we have a real sort of disenfranchising of voter problem now going on in Missouri. Because if you want an example of how our political system can make something that ought to be fairly simple like voting. I think almost incomprehensibly complicated. Do I have one for you? And the story has changed a lot just in the last 24 hours. So right before the polls closed in New Hampshire on Tuesday night.

18:30The Supreme Court seemed to put it to rest and we thought we had it to rest. And then another federal court jumped in and put a temporary restraining order on what the state Supreme Court said, kind of ignoring what the US Supreme Court said. So let me, let me lay this out there for those of you that haven't been paying attention to what Missouri's been up to. And of course, it's all about the larger, that larger battle that we spent the spring litigating and relitigating all over the country, the sort of mid decade redistricting. So Missouri Republicans drew, you know, followed the advice of President Trump and drew a new congressional map last year. They wanted to go instead of six to they wanted to at least see if they could get to seven one or even eight zero. It was part of that mid decade redistricting arms race. That and the principal target was the fifth congressional district in Kansas City. It is the district that is currently represented by Democratic congressman, the manual cleaver.

19:32Opponent, opponents of that map and what they did is they basically they got rid of the fifth right they created a hub and spoke and they made a and essentially they created a situation that there would be just one African American seat in St. Louis, essentially, and that's it. Seven one everywhere. They took a six to a map that you know in a really good Democratic air could get to five three with the suburb if if the and Wagner suburban seat ever fell to the Democrats, but realistically it had been a six to map. They decided they could make a seven one map. They couldn't get rid of the St. Louis district, but they thought they could get rid of the Kansas City one. So they come up with the seven one map. Opponents of that map went out and collected more than 300,000 signatures to put the legislation basically on a year nay up or down vote on a statewide referendum because under Missouri's constitution. A valid referendum petition can suspend a law until the voters decide whether to approve it. The voters can kind of overrule a legislature if enough signatures are gathered to do just that it's an interesting Missouri's not the only state that does this, but it's one of the few states that do it.

20:46So opponents got the signatures and they had it for a long time and it looked like we were going to get this referendum pretty quickly and it would would have happened perhaps in the spring or whatever except the Missouri Secretary state, Danny Hoskins decided the referendum provision didn't apply to congressional redistricting. He just, by the way, he had no, he had no basis in fact to prove this. He just decided this. So he just kept the lane. Those petitions were submitted in December, okay. December of 2025. We are sitting in September of 2026. And when did he did not reject the petition signatures officially until 4 p.m. on August 4th. August 4th happened to be the day of the Missouri primary. In other words, and you see what he was doing here, he was sort of trying to they were trying to jam the courts. They were trying to sort of force the situation where yeah, you know, but but you can't just infringe as the voters were we've gone too far. It's like Trump.

21:53It's the equivalent of knocking down a building before anybody gave you permission to knock down a building. What are you going to do about it now? Right. That's essentially what this Missouri Secretary state tried to do. He tried to screw the voters, screw the state constitution and jam this thing through. So Missouri went ahead on August 4th held congressional primaries using the new district lines. Even though he knew the legal status of Secretary state, this person ought to be recalled and kicked out of office. It's the most undemocratic actions that you could make here. I mean, and it's incompetency like any any first year lawyer just out of law school would have told him, hey, you know, this is going to get challenged anyway. So he goes ahead and allows the election to be held under the new lines. Even though he knew the legal status was in question. And so what happened last week, the Missouri Supreme Court, the state Supreme Court unanimously said the Secretary states decision to not accept these referendum accept those signatures and accept the premise of the referendum that his his interpretation that somehow this this provision in the context of the state.

23:04Provision in the constitution didn't apply to redistricting was BS man. This was unanimous unanimous. They said this. They said the referendum was legal. It was sufficient and it was timely and because it was filed on time, the courts said the new congressional map never took a fact. So as far as the state Supreme Court is concerned, there is no seven one map that the Republicans created late in 2025. There was only the 2022 map, which was that six to map. So the state the Missouri Supreme Court is saying the map didn't become illegal last week. The map never existed. It never took effect. But voters voted, right? Hey, you know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat boy, is that me? I wear the same three or four things right the sweater that goes with everything that perfect pair of pants, the t shirt you some you somehow always reach for first.

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28:30So the old 2022 districts remain as far as the state Supreme Court is concerned the only legal congressional districts that Missouri has had the entire time. So the court specifically blamed the practical mess we're now in on the secretary states delay and incorrect interpretation of law this is why this person he literally has disenfranchised over a million voters. With his partisan decision just because he was afraid that the law that afraid of following his own state's constitution I believe he took a note but apparently he already violated his own. So look they didn't like what the state's a pouring court did so Missouri appealed that the United States Supreme Court to intervene and again just before polls closed in the New Hampshire primary and Tuesday. Justice Brett Kavanaugh declined to intervene you didn't give an explanation but I can tell you why didn't intervene this is a state issue the US Supreme Court rarely is is is just not going to get involved into the interpretation of a state constitution by state Supreme Court.

29:41That's why you didn't intervene right and if you go look at the history of the US Supreme courts when when you see states I mean we saw similar thing happened with Virginia right Virginia Democrats wanted the US Supreme Court to intervene and they wouldn't do it they're not going to get involved with a state Supreme Court is interpreting the state constitution. So one would have assumed that would have settled it old map is going to be in November now there was a lot of problems with that except minutes after the Kavanaugh decision where he said this US Supreme Court was not going to intervene in this a federal district judge in Missouri gentleman named Stephen Clark issued a temporary restraining order saying Missouri cannot use the old map even though the state Supreme Court said there is only one map there is no new map. Because it was never legal. So here we are the Missouri Supreme Court says there is no new map you cannot use it it's not a legal map and a federal judge says yeah, but you can't use the old map now it's too late election days eight weeks away so here we are Missouri so what's going to happen so here's what judge Clark's order does it only last 14 days is temporary restraining order so in the opponents of the new map of already appealed this decision.

30:58But it is important to hear Clark's reasoning here because this is was the point I had actually prepared to talk about until we had even more changes here. He has now put his finger on the same problem I was trying to understand since the Missouri Supreme Court ruling came down he says switching maps between the primary and the general election would quote wreak havoc on the fairness and orderliness of Missouri's congressional elections. And he's right about the underlying practical problem because Missouri already held this primary about 1.2 million Missourians participated in said primary candidates one nominations those results were certified all under a map that does not exist according to the state Supreme Court by the way. But those prime but because those primaries were conducted using the new districts. So now what do you do right the Missouri Supreme Court says those districts never should have been used because they had not been enacted into law yet. So imagine you're a voter in Missouri you showed up in August the state told you here's your new congressional district here are the candidates seeking to represent you you get to pick one and so you did your vote was counted and now the state may have to come back and say hmm.

32:14Well we now you're now in a different district so the person you voted in the primary is not the nominee you get to decide between that's in you're now in a different district. Well what the hell right right so somebody else want a primary to represent your actual district except you never got to vote in that primary. So weren't this is not a hypothetical this is what is being contemplated right now by the state of Missouri. Now if you want to get into the details here six of the of Missouri's a congressional districts were changed by the new map. And the fifth district was the one changed the most so basically you've got three quarters of voters were impacted by this in Missouri so I don't know how you can even if you're I don't know how Congress can see the winners of this if they hold if they somehow change maps here anyway. So what are you get so now are they going to revert to the old map and then if you won if you're the Republican nominee got him Rick Brack Bratton thought he was going to be essentially the shoe into win the congressional seat of the new fifth district now he's going to be the Republican nominee against the manual cleaver in the manual cleaver's old district and he's going to get trouts.

33:28And the Republican voters who nominated the Republican who were voting in a fundamentally different district. So what do you do. Well what judge Clark's answer is essentially is that changing now creates such enormous disruption that the fairer course is to finish the election under the map used for the primary. But there's one enormous problem with the solution the Missouri Supreme Court has unanimously said that the map never took effect under Missouri law. So now you've got two courts protecting two different principles the state court is saying you cannot simply ignore the Missouri Constitution because following it has become inconvenient which is what the secretary state essentially did. Any intentionally delayed his decision to try to jam to try to create this fiasco situation we're in again I just you know I hate dumbasses this guy I don't know just just get out of politics don't ever get near the don't ever get near public service again you weren't interested in working on public service you were just interested in implementing some partisan ackery you ran for secretary state.

34:35That's a that in theory is supposed to be a job that's a bit more operational a lot less partisan and it's just it stinks to high heaven. So we're in this situation because of the bad a bad acting by a bad actor. But now we've got the two courts and I get it this is not a very easy thing to reconcile. So now you're in a we're in this situation where you have a map that the states of Supreme Court says did not follow the constant the state's constitution. You've held a primary election an illegal primary election as it turns out but you don't want to disenfranchise all the all of these voters right that's what the federal judges saying. So what do you do well why does the solution have to be pretending that one of these problems doesn't exist because there is a precedent for the state. So we're going to have a precedent for another way to get out of this box and it's Texas 1996.

35:36This is where the Missouri story I think is likely headed. Texas had a similar situation they had already held their congressional primaries in 1996. Then after those primaries of federal court had to redraw a bunch of congressional districts because the Supreme Court had upheld a ruling finding that several of the districts not all of them but several of them were unconstitutional. So while it was a different underlying legal issue we had the same practical election problem you've already held the primaries now you've got different districts so what did the federal court do. It avoided the primary results in the 13 affected congressional districts and then did something remarkably simple on the regular November election day in 96 everybody ran on one ballot Democrats Republicans and anybody else qualified all on the same ballot if somebody got a majority. Congratulations you're going to Congress on you know on the traditional election day if nobody got 50% the top two came back for a runoff on December 10th four districts ended up requiring those runoffs that's this is not some theoretical law school remedy this is what was actually done not that long ago and the reason I bring this up.

36:51Isn't because I'm telling Missouri what a court should do I'm just telling you what's I think going to be the likely out the simple the simplest solution to do up to a to not an easy to to certainly not an easy problem. There are important legal differences between Texas and 96 and Missouri and 26 right Missouri law itself does not ordinarily provide for this kind of congressional election. A court would have to find the legal authority to impose this extraordinary remedy and I think that's something a federal court could do the clock by the way is ticking here federal law generally requires military and overseas ballots to go out 45 days before federal election for November 3rd that would put the deadline at September 19th 11 days right where we're we're you know less than two weeks away but the courts ultimately conclude that Missouri has to use the old. Districts somebody's going to have to answer this fundamental question who nominated the candidates because district five is not just a number on a piece of paper a congressional district is filled with people change the people and you change the electorate and if you change the electorate how do you simply declare the nominee chosen by one group of voters is also the nominee chosen by another group of voters who never got to participate right.

38:08So I just want to keep coming back to the Texas solution it's the most obvious answer here and it's the simplest way to not create more problems because more problems could create if you don't do this you know member November doesn't have to be the general election November becomes the primary and the general so what Louisiana used to do for years for what it's worth. You know you get fit frankly it's it's the type of primary election I would prefer as a voter you know not having to pick a party but you just everybody's on the same ballot. I don't know that this is what the courts will do but precedent always matters here and this is a fairly it's a it's the fairest way to resolve this problem right. Of all the available choices at least this one is the virtue of letting people who actually live in the district choose who represents them and this ought to be the priority right that's the constituency whose interest seem to have gotten lost in this entire fight the actual fricking voters. Republicans wanted another congressional seat opponents wanted a referendum the secretary the state decided the referendum wasn't valid because it went against his own politics the Missouri Supreme Court decided that it was the state was hoping the US Supreme Court would intervene they wouldn't.

39:21Now we're in this intervention temporary restraining order which sort of screws everything up. The 8th circuit is going to get involved and that's where I think they're going to come up with this remedy there is just there is no other way again. Unless everybody has their head up their partisan ass right the only remedy here is to provide the voters an opportunity to pick their own representatives in the districts that actually exist. If they don't do this you know there's all sorts of issues here you know I could see a new Congress not seating anybody from these eight you know we could see an entirely new. Special election have to take place by the way the this referendum is now going to be on the November ballot to decide whether or not. Yeah you're nay on this and who knows we've seen voters voters don't like a political party whether it was voters in a blue state like Virginia didn't like the idea of trying to Jerry rig that referendum and I think you're going to see you know voters didn't love it it passed but they didn't love it in Virginia and then the courts intervene.

40:32So we'll see Missouri certainly a red state but again no matter how partisan you are you don't like to feel like you don't get a saying these things and we've seen Missouri referendum ideologically we'll go in a variety of different places it may be a red state but it's not always ideologically as red of a state as a treputation but either way. It's kind of and if the margin is really close in the house I'm not going to go down these rabbit holes I have a conversation that I'm going to get to in about a week that you'll enjoy on that but you know imagine if we have an entire congressional delegation where we can't seat them on January 3rd for the new Congress and imagine if somehow those eight congressional districts what happens and I would decide control if the margin is that tight between the two parties. Which of course in my blue morass scenario is quite possible. All right, let me whip up a few other things from the campaign trail.

41:37We are less than eight weeks away and like I said about especially on Wednesdays I'm going to do my best to highlight just some interesting developments on the trail not every poll I'm not going to do every ad or manufactured outrage but there are some things that pop that I think are worth you know a quick a quick hot take about or two and here are three that caught my eye or you know I'm going to go down the trail. I'm not my eye over the last few days and strangely strangely enough all three are kind of the same version of the same question which is what candidates say versus what candidates do and I'm going to start in Nebraska because the independent Senate candidate there Dan Osborne has given us one of the more revealing explanations of campaigning that I've heard in a while. The recall came surprisingly close in 2024 of pulling an upset against Deb Fisher well he's obviously he's running again and this time he's running against Pete Ricketts and he's trying to perform an incredibly difficult political balancing act right he's trying to stick to being an independent promising he's not going to caucus with either party if he wins a Senate see and yet he can't win if Democrats don't rally around him and he can't win if he doesn't win a majority of independence.

42:46And he's going to need some trump voters this is Nebraska right. In 2024 Osborne ran an ad that began this way so security deal with Legos who would be for that and he went on to say he was with Trump on issues like corruption China and the border and then he adds if Trump needs help building a wall well I'm pretty handy right you know he's the working class guy he's the mechanic and he was trying to show that off right. It's a nice line except Osborne had also talked publicly about undocumented immigrants who had been in this country for decades being able to get legal status and participate in so security. And then this summer in a private meeting with black and Latino Democrats he was challenged about that wall rhetoric and that wall ad from 2024 and here's what Osborne said he explained the campaigning and governing were essentially two separate. Pots of of things if you will he said there's the campaigning side when you're trying to get elected and then there's what you do once you're in office.

43:48It this is true right every politician runs into this every politician tailors a message every politician emphasizes one issue in one room and another issue in another room that's it's called politics. But there's something else there's something different about actually articulating the theory and you got to walk a while fine line here, especially with a guy like Osborne who. You know his best asset is he's not he's not a traditional politician except now he's behaving like a traditional politician right campaigning over here governing over there okay. What makes it politically particularly interesting coming from Osborne. Is because of his independent political identity his pitches that he isn't one of these people he's not a normal politician he's not beholden to the parties. Except apparently the distinction between the campaign version and the governing version applies to independence to huh. And it's look he he I give him points for being honest that hey he's going to say certain things in the trail.

44:55And he's going to govern a different way you know what is it there was a famous Mario quote you know you you you campaign in poetry and govern in pros. But I think it really certain campaigns can get hit harder when you're caught sort of behaving like somebody you've been running against and that's why I think this this is potentially one that could sting for Osborne a little bit. But it takes me to campaign in Ohio because this is a house race but there's sort of a similar issue here so I want to share the story with you the Democrat is a guy named Don Leonard he supplied us with another version of the same sort of Osborne story here Leonard is running against a Republican congressman named Mike Kerry. And earlier this year Leonard was talking about accusations that he's a democratic socialist and Leonard is on tape saying the following I'm not a democratic socialist okay. But then he added this even if I'd were I'd lie to people I'd lie to the people of my district in order to get their votes and then he laughed.

46:00Well guess what Mike Kerry congressman has turned that little excerpt into an ad. Because why wouldn't you right there is nothing you know in this day and age of everything being a I'd up the only thing that might be credible with voters and I say might I don't know if any ads are going to matter anymore if everybody thinks they're all just made up. AI slop fast right and Trump is with the AI slop fast that he does all the time it's really doing this but anyway if you can get candidates in there if you can get your opponent in their own words it's always it always has the ability to land harder than if you're just repeating the words or showing them on screen. So look if you're opponent hand you audio saying I'd lie to voters to get their votes you know you don't need to be a political genius to say hey I think I'm going to use that in a political act. Now what Leonard was and it was a Leonard has an actual recording record of being sort of left wing political views that gives Kerry plenty of material with which to surround the quote.

47:04Let's forget the ideological ideological argument here for a moment. I'm fascinated by the assumption contained in the joke Osborne gets asked about saying different things to different audiences and explains well hey there's there's sort of two different lanes you got to do here you got to say certain things as a candidate then you'll do certain things when you're governing. The candidate in the Ohio House raised jokes that if he held an unpopular belief obviously he'd lie about it. And you're like great thanks for you know puncturing you know whatever whatever hope voters might have had that somebody with integrity might actually run for office here different candidates different states there's different politics. But it's the same underlying assumption right the campaign is a thing you do to get elected and then there's what you actually believe. And I just say you know when you're running an outsider campaign and you're an outsider the second your opponent gets to prove that you're an outsider. And you're not going to prove that you're no different than they are. Doesn't hurt the opponent as much as it's going to hurt you know the outsider candidate right nothing in a weird way it hits harder.

48:13You know even if the sin is is relatively small right it's who you trying to portray yourself as versus who you might actually be. And I think look this is you know for all of these independent candidates Osborne Brian Bangs, Todd Achilles, Seth Bodner right the Republican campaign against them is other Democrats and independent clothing. And you know Osborne just saying what he did makes that easier to execute that you know essentially to to prosecute that case. Perhaps the jury perhaps the jury of voters might say yeah we hear you but man we're done with these incumbents and we're going with the outsider anyway. And that might very well be the case in Nebraska. But I think this is I think it's a suddenly it's a story that says he's just another politician and if you're if you're trying to break this if you're trying to break into this system you don't ever want somebody to conclude you're just another politician.

49:19Alright I want to stop in Kansas here and the Roger Marshall story I mean there's a few things going on in Kansas one is Donald Trump is doing everything he can to make to screw up the Kansas economy right he's done it with beef and now he's doing it with these Canadian tariffs in particular bombardier and air a Canadian owner airplane manufacturer that has factories in Kansas. It's been a staple in Kansas for decades and let's just say every Republican elected official except really for Roger Marshall isn't really come out has come out in support of bombardier though they it's funny how they keep talking you some people they put out statements nobody. Nobody name nobody wants to name check Trump and say you know he's wrong about this they just simply want to show that they're supportive of bombardier but it is yet more proof that Trump might be just a secret planet of the Democrats to just see if he can totally implode the Republican party before the midterms but that's not the story I wanted to touch on in Kansas I wanted to touch on the story in the New York Times it's making the rounds and it's one of these stories that there's nothing illegal that was.

50:32Nothing illegal that was found but it's a character story so let me tell you about it Roger Marshall of course Republican Center upper reelection Democratic opponent is the Methodist pastor Adam Hamilton now Marshall before he ran for his political career was a doctor in fact he built a substantial part of his political identity around being Doc Marshall and OBGYN world doctor a guy who delivered thousands of dollars. Thousands of babies well the New York Times has gone through court records from his years of practicing medicine and what they found was somewhat remarkable more than 700 patients of Marshall have been sued for unpaid medical bills 81 arrests following Mr. court appearances there were the he is asked for wage garnishments bank accounts interest is charged interest on this debt and some of the debt has been astonishingly small one was 101 dollars one was 129 dollars now I want to be careful here Roger Marshall did not personally order police officers to arrest patients who miscordates judges issue warrants when people failed to appear in court not the person who is who was suing his attorney says Marshall was not personally making those decisions and that is medical practice was using the same collection procedures available to other creditors.

52:01Okay totally true. But there's also this if you're suing somebody over a hundred and twenty nine dollar medical bill this is no longer an abstract argument about the financial survival of rural medicine right. There's one more record twenty twenty five senator Marshall introduced legislation restricting hospitals ability to sue certain patients when hospitals had failed to comply with federal price transparency requirements. Now that's very interesting to me now after reading the story about Marshall does Marshall did he change his mind about medical that collection does he think what his own practice did was wrong. Or does he believe there's an important distinction between what a hospital does to collect medical that and what a doctor's office does point is I think we'd all want to hear the answer from him. But there's also campaign media story here to Marshall's allies want to know why the story appears now. Right why didn't the New York Times do the story year ago tears ago three years ago six years ago, etc. Why did they choose to run this story less than two months before an election.

53:10A fair question right there's no doubt it's possible that somebody to show a reporter. Hey did you see what we found there might be more to this you might want to look into it. Guess what welcome to campaign betting right welcome to campaign reporting. Now I've covered enough campaigns to know the damaging information doesn't usually materialize spontaneously on a reporter's desk. But here's a distinction that I think matters. The motive of the source doesn't determine whether the information is true. If a campaign hands a reporter a court record. The journalist job isn't to say oh this came from the opposition therefore it doesn't count. The job is to get go get your own version of the court record verify it do the reporting find out what's going on behind it give the candidate in question and opportunity to respond. Then perhaps let voters decide whether this is a story or not. There's also campaigning right what candidates say what candidates do and what the other side can prove they did.

54:11So It's one of those things that I you know I understand the crankiness of the Marshall campaign. But I do think this is this becomes a character question right which is. You know the story also noted. Marshall decided what the interest rate should be on uncollected debt and he chose 18% right like credit card that 18% not 3% not 4% not 5% and there were the inevitable stories from people on explaining why they could you know the ones who got arrested for missing a court appearance. Some said they didn't know they there was a court appearance and they didn't know that missing it meant they could get arrested and look I think. I think we all know you have to have some rules and if you have no rules and then nothing gets enforced. But what this really gets at right is the empathy question your doctor how empathetic are you. Right.

55:12The democratic nominee is a pretty famous pastor right pastors are you know an empathy go hand in hand. It is it and you know Marshall already kind of has this Marshall is not a. I'll put it in medical terms he doesn't have the greatest bedside manner. In fact in in some ways I'm surprised you know I look at it guy like the other doctor and one of the other doctors in the Senate Bill Cassidy. That dude's got a good bedside matter whatever you think of the capacity some of you may love him some of you may hate him. Be angry with him over the Kennedy thing and you know I think they're good friends of his that are angry with him over the Kennedy business. But I get it like as a doctor you're like yeah he would make me feel better he would you know the information I got out of him he. There he's got he's got he's got the ability to tell it like it is and not feel like you're getting something jammed up here you know what.

56:13Marshall is I don't know if he's just a little still Washington shy I don't know how else to put it but there's just a little in this story sort of paints a very just cold picture look. There's nothing untoward that he did and you know he's running a business and they've got to collect the debt. But it's it it certainly appears there wasn't a lot of empathy behind the decision making and ultimately right politics is very personal for people especially again the contrast with pastor Hamilton is quite striking here. Never mind that it brings up the larger question of you know how much of health care should be a for profit enterprise and how much of it should be a right and you know what what what should you know there was this just got wrenching story with one of the people who got arrested who she was she started to fill out the paperwork she thought she might qualify for Medicaid and then she went into labor before she finished the paperwork and then got the big bill and etc and it went on.

57:22Let's not pretend we make this easy for people that are at or near the poverty line when it comes to getting Medicaid coverage qualifying for Medicaid coverage going through the hoops different states of different rules all of those things and. It is again I get why the Marshall people are upset with the timing. But this this is no it's no ordinary place for an op-ohit like this to land in lands in the New York Times that's you know that's going to be a boon for Hamilton as far as attention it's going to be a boon for Hamilton when it comes to some fundraising. The question is is it you know and you can see how this gets turned into what what the Obama people turned Romney into the cold. Hard ass corporate executive who just was trying to lay people off as fast as they can. You could picture that that's the picture that they want to paint with Marshall and that's a question that I have about Marshall is how how well established is his identity he's an incumbent but he's up this is his first re-election as senator how well established is he with Kansas voters how embedded is he Jerry Moran's been around a long time I think he's got he's embedded himself it's one story wouldn't puncture.

58:38The reputation of Moran i'm not as convinced on Marshall so squat the look this was a. Quite the quite the quite the hit on Marshall and look. Here's the thing if we don't vet these candidates during campaign season when is there ever going to be vetting of these candidates so. i'd rather have the information yes is it all motivated by the election of course it is but ultimately winner voters paying attention to decide. On the character and the qualifications of whether these people deserve to be in public service it's in campaign season so i'd rather see all of these stories about everybody in the vetting and we're going to get I promise there's going to be a deep dive into how Hamilton is managed his. Congregation and how he's managed and there already have been stories like that we plenty of that. But I think this one you know i i've had Kansas on my radar a little bit longer than most people and I think you now you now see that Kansas is just inching ever so closer to the battleground not quite one of our top six races yet.

59:51But it may be getting closer than either Nebraska. Or my friends in New Hampshire alright so with that i'm. i'm going to sneak in a break by coming up my conversation with Anthony Tomasini and this is one where some of you know i'm a sports nut some of you know i'm a political nut and some of you know that I was a. A music major for a brief period of time well in college played the French horn well. Anthony Tomasini is somebody i've been reading for a long time he's the long time chief classical music critic for the New York times but he's got a new book out about the extraordinary life of Marion Anderson. Marion Anderson may not be a name you know but you are probably familiar with one of the iconic photos and stories from her 1939 concert at the Lincoln Memorial after she was barred from performing a constitutional because she was black. And Thomas any desire is is written a new biography of her but he argues that remembering Anderson simply as a civil rights icon actually obscure something important about her she's one of the great American artists of the 20th century.

1:01:07So we talk about her music her life and why we've never quite known how to remember her anyway she's both a civil rights icon and. One of the greatest voices of the 20th century anyway it's a little bit you know i've for some of you this might be a little bit of a. A not a left turn or a right turn but maybe a you turn of sorts but. I think it's a good story and I think you'll enjoy the conversation in Anthony is just terrific. I'll skip gates is directing this series of sort of forgotten icon to the civil rights era in the 20th century and he sort of inspired and reached out to Anthony to do this he tells the story a little bit so. Let's sneak in the break and then when we come back my conversation with Anthony. Hey this episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought to you by ethos look let me tell you about life insurance as you know ethos is is an incredible portal for helping you find the right life insurance policy i'm a huge believer in life insurance.

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1:03:36Running a business is hard enough don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other one for sales another for inventory a separate one for accounting that software overload O do is the all in one platform that replaces them all CRM accounting inventory e commerce HR fully integrated easy to use and built to grow with your business thousands have already made the switch why not you try O do for free. At O do dot com that's O do dot com did you know every 36 minutes a child in the U.S. is diagnosed with cancer which means some of the bravest warriors you'll ever meet aren't professional athletes are super heroes they're the kids in this fight that's why I'm proud to support Hyundai hope on wheels for the past 28 years with support from Hyundai their dealers and every new Hyundai sold hope on wheels is contributed over 300 million dollars to childhood cancer research helping save more than 40 thousand. But we're not done yet let's bring every warrior home join our fight at Hyundai warriors dot com this is Tony a.l.

1:04:40From the real report with Tony a.l. An uncle murder you haven't noticed how everything keeps going up rents going up streaming services are going up even your favorite burrito spot suddenly thinks salsa should cause extra but with boost mobile you and your phone bill don't have to play the will it's go up soon game because boost mobile has an unlimited talk text and data plan at a price that'll never go up it's the same price you'll pay for life meaning your set. And you'll pay to never worry about your bill increasing again for as long as you're on the plan while the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and die you boost mobile gives you unlimited wireless at one set price for life imagine something in your budget actually staying the same you'll pay the same for unlimited wireless when you're posting mirror selfies in your 20s and when you're posting mirror selfies and retirement some things never change switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up only at boost mobile after 30 gigabytes customers may experience slow speeds customer. This will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the boost unlimited plan. This is Ashley I can Eddie from the almost famous podcast you ever notice you and your spouse keep saying we need to get away but you never actually plan anything that was us until we did something fun and spontaneous we went to resort pass calm there are hundreds of hotel resorts pools and spots and private beaches that you can enjoy.

1:06:00You can spend the day at a luxury resort pool spa massage without booking an overnight stay and listen I may have only been like 15 minutes from home but it felt like it was a whole different world and I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed so just go to resort pass calm choose your resort choose your day luxury resort day passes start at just $25 once you post your daycation people are going to ask where you are good resort pass calm. So you can use your resort pass calm slash almost famous and use the promo code almost famous to get $20 off when you spend $100 that's code almost famous at resort pass calm slash almost famous. I'm going to do a bit of a turn with my guest today we have a can of barrier breaking in this country Jackie Robinson taking the field in Brooklyn Rosa Parks staying in her seat.

1:07:27I was wondering what I didn't know and what I found a little embarrassing for me not to know is that the concert was the least of it. She was already by then one of the great singers of the world. She'd been famous in Europe for years before America caught up and she spent the next two decades performing in that in cities that applauded her at night and wouldn't rent a room afterward in 1955 at 57 she became the first black singer to appear at the Met in New York City. There's a second reason though I wanted to do this I've some of you know I spent a good chunk of my life with a French horn in my hands and I often lament that I don't have it in my hands is often and Anthony Thomasini was the chief classical musical pro critic at the New York Times for last 20 plus years. So this is a book about the civil rights story most of us half know written by a critic can tell you what was actually happening inside that voice is new book is called voice of a century the life and artistry of Mary and Anderson it's actually part of an interesting series being edited by our friends skip gates which I think Tony will tell us a little bit about so Tony welcome to the talk.

1:08:38I'm delighted to be here thank you for your interest. Let's start with how you came about to do this biography was was this something you've been working on was it something people reached out to you skip gates things I know that this is part of a series right that he's involved and so tell me some of the origin story. This seldom happens to an author I was asked to write the book I had gone to no skip and in fall of twenty twenty one so many classical issue this big deluxe set of all Anderson's RCA recordings and I wrote a Sunday time piece about it and for people who didn't know about our talk about the link memorial and her. And her childhood and Philadelphia and stuff but I focused a lot on the recordings and I said some of these recordings are just forgotten you know kinder toad and leader Mueller with the San Francisco Symphony of Pierre Mont to Scandinavian songs in the original languages and so skip really liked it and he emailed and told me so two months later he asked me to write this book would I write a book for and and why me I mean I did think about that I mean the all.

1:09:49The subjects are what major black figures right and one thing he said in interviews about this series is that there is an under appreciation it's a remnant of prejudice of black intellectualism and I think he's right and in a way in this article I was saying Anderson for all her fame and her you know position that you were talking about as the civil rights pioneer or however role. You know she was for and how people she's in a way intellectual the equivalent in music of intellectually underrated she she was a probing interpretive artist she was a major musician and that's sometimes that happens in a lot of fields to pioneers they wind up being remembered mostly for you know breaking the being breaking the path you know and well how did they like you mentioned Jackie Robinson well of course the biggest path breaker in baseball history what was he if you were writing a book about him was he also one of the great great play yes actually he was but we forget that all we remember and in a way that's happened to her so I think he knew I would tell the story well and be sensitive to it but he in a way he wanted the times critic to say well make a case for her I know artistically I mean so that's why the

1:11:18book the subtitle the life and artistry I spent a lot of time writing about her recordings her voice her approach how she when she was rejected from music school she learned this stuff on her own but but it's she was a major major artist so what it is interesting you know her her life story growing up in Philadelphia not having these opportunities and it's a it's such a reminder I mean I'll be honest I've always said one of the reasons why I'm not a professional French word players I remember the first time I heard somebody not as good as I was technically make a better sound and there it is there is something called a gift we all know it and you have it or you don't the way you describe her voice is is terrific because I think a lot of people can sing but can you can you amplify on your own right and she was doing it without all the modern help

1:12:20that everybody has today to boost sound or to boost different decibels within your sound so describe her sound a little bit because I think that must be what really jumped out at you when you heard those recordings and I think also what jump jumps out of all people who hear those recordings and heard her in her church one thing I learned which I is that from the Haley Jackson to Marion Anderson to you know Beyonce today to DM Warwick to Liam Price growing up in the black church was everything everything everything in their lives and for her that was true to she was conscripted into the junior choir at six years old you know and before long everybody was bragging about the baby control to so already this child had a kind of low set voice but Anderson both as a young woman and and throughout her career also had this wonderful middle and upper range to she could get but it was a haunting beautiful thing about her voice that once she got into soprano terrain and say it was beautiful and radiant but it sounded like it was emanating from that awesome low voice

1:13:39when you can go high and low and you're using your low you're using your diaphragm to support it I mean you can hear thin versus full absolutely you would never describe her her her high range is thin no no she she it just emanated from everything was supported and so that's the gift isn't it this isn't something like training mechanism of you know I went through diaphragm breathing exercises back in the day and all of those things and you know I'm sure she did learn those things over time but this was just a gift that she had wasn't it yes I think that gift is that's a gift also for her younger sisters were both both have very good voices they actually thought about maybe could they have a dad must have had some good voices as well mother not her father so much better mother did and but yeah I mean she so yes the voice that's a gift musicality just having a me instincts for music that's a gift to either have it or you don't the intellectual analytic part of music that you can learn that you learn by going to school by studying harmony by

1:14:49working with composers by you know working with coaches and that's what she had to find her way around I mean I tell the story in the book that she was taking private lessons and finally at around 17 she says okay I have to get serious and she takes herself off to the Philadelphia musical academy which no longer exists and she tries to get an application and kind of snippy young pretty blonde the receptionist says oh we don't take colored and Anderson right talked with her journalist friend Emily Kimberrow 50 years later about it it's still hurt she said it I finally came face to face with what it means to be a Negro in this country and the shock you know was like something physical you think she knew that already but somehow having that happened to her so even then she wasn't going to go to music school she had to keep learning from expert coaches and teachers which is why she

1:15:51eventually made herself just found a way to get to Europe well I was just going to say I mean this is there's a lot of our 20th century black music history had to be popularized in Europe and respected in Europe the musicians got more respect in Europe before they ever got back here this has been true of multiple genres of music so how did she get there well it was she was it was 1927 she was had just turned 30 it she had saved money she had saved money there the church raised money for her and she finally took herself off to London for and she was stayed there for a year and by the end she sang at a London proms concert believe in her nine mean that was a big deal so it was kind of a big success then she came back home and then the second time she went to Europe that was in 1930 and she applied for a Rosen Rosenwald fund scholarship and she wrote the most poignant letter where she said she wants to be a fine artist and she that will be accredited to her people and she got a fellowship to go study in Germany this was 1930 Germany 1931 and Germany yeah can we say that again 19th or early 1930s

1:17:07here's this black woman and she and it's really interesting there's a scholar and historian Kira Thurman who's written a lot about this about trying to parse the reception she got and like German leader are we're so central to the identity of German culture and German people and stuff that they can founded them that how could this black American woman sing our music so beautifully you know and she got reviews rave reviews but sometimes along the lines of it's horrible to say it but they would essentially were saying she sings Shubert so well you wouldn't know she was black so they they had to kind of bleach out her color and just sort of but but then she wound up going to Scandinavia and she had a promoter there and she found an accompanist there a Finnish man Kosti Vahannan and before long scanned a Marion fever gripped Scandinavia you know she was a big

1:18:15different languages did she speak did she was she able to sing it this is someone who barely finished high school and she became fluent in German it's hard to know she she was pretty comfortable in French and her the Scandinavian language is a little bit because she she had a finish a company and she immersed herself in this songs and this stuff but but at least three I'd say you know English and German and French it's it's in and and those are the three that she's recorded in there's recording yes she also recorded Italian are is but um that the opera but sort of brings up a whole nother that's more of a fanatic or what no no it's it's more that she know it's a beautiful language for singing right that she from the start didn't see the point of studying too much Italian opera because she wasn't going to get into opera companies in the United States. Oh interesting so she just yeah so a whole genre that she might have been

1:19:21we we may we may have missed out on a whole subsection oh did we have of canon had she had she not felt had she felt like she could have broken into an opera. She in 1925 she won the competition from the for the New York, Florida to make her debut at Lucien Stadium and she won against several hundred other applicants and the big area that she sang was a done at Zedi area oh Mio Fernando it knocked everybody out at the London proms concert she also sang that area so it was it was exactly what she said it was a hint of what she could have done I mean you mentioned her debut at the at the med in 1955 first of all that is not that long ago that you know the Metropolitan did not have black singers on its stage but she had already sung you know in Carnegie Hall in major halls in the 30s and 40s why not what was the difference was on and the Carnegie Hall stage a black woman was sort of just a

1:20:26voice on stage at the med you are a character you could be somebody's lover or somebody's mother or somebody's brother or I mean sister and the other singer would inevitably be white and we couldn't have that you know you couldn't mix people races on stiches there was still this issue of um uh cat you know casting a casting that's still in a way troubles all the arts but but um I think we've made huge progress over that I think you make that was here yeah go ahead no that that was the inhibition that huh and but anyway she she did it and she had had no experience an opera whatsoever and it was uh but she only sang in that one production of very zumbalu and mascara uh this uh supporting but important role of El Rika and yeah it was a big triumph and and it brought you know sitting in the audience that night that was 1955 was a young soprano named lean team price

1:21:32oh wow who said she told later told me she anointed me that night and she said maybe some day I can sing on that stage and she went how did she get to that stage exactly what she said she went off to Europe and she performed price performed in European companies then eventually in 1961 she had triumphant met debut what what um if she had been born 30 years later what genre of music do you think she would be singing she would have she she loved song she especially loved German leader and we can talk more about what drew her to that if you want but she would have sung opera and in 1960 she did a long interview for lady's home journal but a very good journalist Emily Kimbrough who was a friend of hers and tried to get her to really talk openly about as the article was called um you know being black in a white america and

1:22:41and she said and Emily said to her well you know I know it was so tough but you you look at everything you've done there's you there's nothing you haven't accomplished and Marion turned on her and said nothing what what about opera I wanted opera but they didn't I wish I could have offered I could offer you know now but I could have offered then but they didn't want it they didn't want me and but she said but at least I've broken this barrier for singers who will follow me which she absolutely absolutely did so I think she would have had an opera career it's interesting that she said it then because the portrait you paint of her early is not someone who who was she she was not focused on being a trailblazer she was focused on being a music right she and and at times look I don't want to say you wrote critically about that but it was almost like I could you wrote with a bit of disappointment that she didn't fight harder on the show except I think

1:23:41um that's interesting that that that came through that way too I do present that that side of her but on balance I'm on her side this is Jacob Goldstein from what's your problem running a business is hard enough don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other one for sales another for inventory a separate one for accounting that software overload Odo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all CRM accounting inventory e-commerce HR fully integrated easy to use and built to grow with your business thousands have already made the switch why not you try Odo for free at od o o dot com that's odu dot com did you know every 36 minutes a child in the us is diagnosed with cancer which means some of the bravest warriors you'll ever meet aren't professional

1:24:43athletes are superheroes they're the kids in this fight that's why I'm proud to support Hyundai Hope on wheels for the past 28 years with support from Hyundai their dealers and every new Hyundai sold hope on wheels has contributed over 300 million dollars to childhood cancer research helping save more than 40 thousand kids but we're not done yet let's bring every warrior home join our fight at Hyundai warriors dot com this is Tony a.l from the real report with Tony a.l on Uncle murder you haven't noticed how everything keeps going up rents going up streaming services are going up even your favorite burrito spot suddenly thinks salsa should cause extra but with boost mobile you and your phone bill don't have to play the will let's go up zoom game because boost mobile has an unlimited torque text and data plan at a price that'll never go up it's the same price you'll pay for life meaning you're set to never worry about your bill increasing again for as long as you're on the plan while the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and dime you boost mobile gives you unlimited wireless at one set price for life imagine something in your budget actually staying the same you'll pay the same for unlimited wireless when you're posting mirror selfies in your 20s and

1:25:48when you're posting mirror selfies in retirement some things never change switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up only at boost mobile after 30 gigabytes customers may experience slow speeds customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the boost unlimited plan this is actually like you know the from the almost famous podcast you ever notice you and your spouse keep saying we need to get away but you never actually plan anything that was us until we did something fun and spontaneous we went to resort pass calm there are hundreds of hotel resorts pools and spots and private beaches that you can enjoy you can spend the day at a luxury resort pool spa massage without booking an overnight stay and listen I may have only been like 15 minutes from home but it felt like it was a whole different world and I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed so just go to resort pass calm choose your resort choose your day luxury resort day

1:26:48passes start at just $25 once you post your daycation people are going to ask where you are good to resort pass calm slash almost famous and use the promo code almost famous to get $20 off when you spend $100 that's code almost famous at resort pass calm slash almost famous I don't want to make it seem like you weren't but it was sort of like hey you know and this is always to me the difficulty of writing about anything in history right right is that how much of today's morals right and today's effects do you do you a squat you know how how and it is impossible if if we're writing about something we did not experience right for writing about a time we did not live in you know what was the norm is is the best we can come up is what other people tell us what the norm was right so I I I get this challenge but I could feel a little bit of that tension that you had of like wow it in hindsight it's easy to you could have thought that you could have done this or you you could have stood this but you didn't but in some ways she was

1:27:53playing a long game is the other she was and also if I can tell you one story I tell in the book she's singing in church she's the stars of you know singer of the choir she's having to having voice lessons she's about 14 years old and the great tenor black tenor roll and he's it was about 10 years her senior comes to her church and sings and he sings among the things he sings are German song shubbered in German and the congregation thought his voice was beautiful nobody knew what he was singing about and Marion didn't know what she was he was singing about she didn't care she was haunted she was hooked I have she made up with the songs were in her mind but what role in Hayes and all she had the zypiphany this is something hard to define this was an artist this went beyond the components of his voice his technique there was something about getting to the essence of music that just got through her and from that moment forward she wanted to be a

1:28:54fine artist that was that was her driving thing that was you know that even applied to the Lincoln Memorial Council that she described well she the night before the night before that concert she was on the phone to her manager trying to get out of it because she thought the whole thing had morphed into some kind of civil rights demonstration and if she sang it she didn't need to sing a constitution whole you know like she didn't need to she had sung everywhere but if she was going to sing there she was going to do it because she was a great artist and that's what they want you know that's what they wanted and she was afraid and Saul he or her manager had to say no Marion that's not what it's going to be like people are people they're not going to be banners people are going to come and express their support for you by savoring every moment of your artistry and that's what happened and that's why she was deeply moved by it but it was it was being an artist that that that drove her you know that she won and she won you know the why didn't she speak

1:30:00out more if I can in 1937 she has her first concert at Princeton she hasn't sung every four she thinks she has a room at the Nessaian until she finds out uh-uh she can't stay there she's there what is she supposed to do word gets to a famous faculty member a refugee from Nazi Germany who had heard her at Carnegie Hall and come backstage meekly to meet her big fan Albert Einstein wow and he says you must you will come his wife had just died he said you will come and stay with my stepdaughter and me and my personal secretary at my house on Mercer Street so she did and they took wonderful care of her and he went to the concert and they stayed up late and he was ashamed of his adopted home town that this magnificent woman honors your hotel by staying it and are you kidding you know like and but and he they became fast friends and they he and there was one point of

1:31:03disagreement he thought why not you speak out at more you have this platform you're marrying it you know and she was said I can't know how she put it to him but she probably said well basically it's easy for you your Einstein you know you can go out and say whatever you want kind of what he was saying it should be easy for you I know wasn't she was still trying to get through the door of an opera house in this company yeah in this country you know she was trying there were still things close so many things closed to her and she had to do it through the merits of her singing that you know that that through her artistry so yeah but she she I just think it was partly her nature maybe she wasn't bold enough Paul Robison spoke out all the time but career wise as a singer he paid a price for it you know he lost a lot of opportunities so yeah she could have been more outspoken but

1:32:03she prevailed through her artistry through her great you know great voice so let's some what you know did she you know sometimes you some artists they go to Europe and they never want to come back right because they they're so they were so frustrated at the without poorly they were treated here they stay there I mean and there's there's plenty of generations of artists have done that especially early in the in the 20s the early jazz musician jazz music a lot of black artists just basically left America as they felt like they were yeah frankly safer right in Europe what did she come back she was an American and she was proud to be an American and she was comfortable in this country and also she's if she was not outspoken in a way that we would maybe admire even more today she spoke all the time of my people I want to be a credit to my people she thought she but she

1:33:07thought the way to do that was to be an example of excellence and possibility give us a chance look what we can do and she wanted to prove herself that way in America I think that's where she came back and but she kept going back to Europe for the she long she would turn around and go have tours there and come back she traveled a lot but sure she based herself here and and eventually all the doors did open open open for but she but she pride them open what um yeah I you you say that if the genre that obviously she missed the most of opera what did she make of the rise because you know as she's becoming more well known that's also the rise of jazz right it's the early days of the croners right then we move from that to you know popular music and it goes from there what did

1:34:08she make of that genre and it had all interest yes she was friends with Duke Ellington and she respected all that music tremendously I don't think she had great feeling for it or deep interest in it but she was very curious and respectful um I kind of rescue her in a chapter um where from interviews she gave where she would talk about uh high you know my upper higher music and you know that maybe that during it used to be that people favorite pop your little things more than the song she sang you know the heart song she sang but during the war singing for the troops and going to hospitals it's amazing how often people ask for sugar and drums and and she acted like the higher forms of music uh she used that word unfortunately you know like well it's funny I mean it's look let's be honest especially if you you know I was a music major for a while right and so there's this mindset that real music the

1:35:12real difficult music is classical music right and opera is a derivative of that and um popular music you're are for are for singers who couldn't do opera right and I'm sitting here being very obviously ham-handed here but that was sort of this mindset and yet I I look at somebody like Whitney Houston it's like well if she'd chosen to do opera she might have been a great opera singer yeah um yes I think um there's this chapter I'm proud of that was called why sugar where I try to explain what drew her to this art form and I compare it to myself growing up in a long island suburb but there was more there was more music in her household than there was in mine this grabbed me I don't know how I just I was listening to Salzburg festival radio concert on the radio by myself when I was a kid it just it just hooked me and you don't have that parent or grandparent that said hey take a listen to this I mean no I didn't have that I had

1:36:13a I had a father who had a eclectic and stuff so I was hearing it in my house a little bit so no I I scream scream for I'm on a piano I want a lesson so it was through me and if I finally ate eight years old I got I got one but it wasn't it wasn't through my parents she everyone under family saying music music at their church was you know crucial to her but what I say is that when she heard the song like Roland Hayes singing Schubert it wasn't she may have used the word higher but she didn't mean she ended every recital she ever gave with spirituals singing Negro Swings was that was that always connected to her first recording contract that was the first recording she was asked to do were were spirituals but soon after you know other things but it was her way of saying these works are every bit as profound and great as any song by any European composer that I you know that I I've sung already but what I think did grab her about classical music was

1:37:21yes it was the subtext of things it was the multi-layered quality of it why is it that a Schubert singing on the surface seems so cheerful but yet there's this undertow there's this sadness there's this longing what's going on there it's the subtleties and inner workings of it I think that's what hooked her that she she had to figure out what is that you know she used the word higher but it wasn't higher you know was she also a piano player yes she uh she uh she she she's took piano lessons there wasn't a lot of money for them but she learned a lot on her own and was she a music reader or did she learn it by you or no no she yeah she did learn to read yeah and and and all the and all that stuff but oh not being able to get into the account music academy what she never did was like take a course in harmony or something like that or that you know or counterpoint or these things that all music students do right she was not doing like

1:38:23rudimentary composition and she wasn't she wasn't doing that and so but again she she worked with really really I have scars by the I still have scars from my music composition professor uh who went to Yale who absolutely eviscerated one of my first attempts at a Bach chorale and I'm like still scarred from this oh that's terrible but I'm so glad she so glad she didn't have to fear that yeah but normal in classical music training that usually by studying counterpoint and writing pieces in the style of Bach chorales and and harmony it's not that you become a master of this but it changes the way you hear it's us you really do you hear ah you're alert to what you're what you're listening you're listening to I think so she she did miss that but um yeah she she is somebody I get the impression that you know when you did your review and skip gates reached out to you that in some ways what skip gates is concerned about is is some of these folks getting lost

1:39:26because I do think and it goes back to this pioneer and this breaking barrier mindset that we have the the pioneers will always have their pages in the history books um there's a whole group of people who you know she was a pioneer she didn't choose to advertise being a pioneer as we keep as basically we've spent 20 minutes talking about um that doesn't make her any less relevant to the music to the history of music in the 20th century and ultimately I feel like what this book is you can't tell the history of American singing of the 20th century without her. Absolutely not and she um even the even in the moment of being a pioneer um she was going to make the larger points about artistry and for example the Lincoln Memorial concert okay she agrees to do it there she is she opens up singing America she's so flustered to look at 75,000 people black and white all mean was that

1:40:28the largest audience she'd ever performed in brother that was the largest audience there ever been on on the Lincoln at the Lincoln Memorial and you know 24 years later for the I have a dream speech at absolutely harking back to the Anderson concert you know like in a way it was a reference to that that the it was really one of the seminal events of the civil rights movement that that concert in 1939 but so she sings America she flubs the words a little because she's so flustered it's only a half hour concert it's going to include a shubu shubu save Maria and three spirituals the second piece she sang was the longest that Donut Zedi Arya I mentioned before Omiya Fernando seven minutes before an audience it was then an obscure Arya how many people among those 75,000 even radio listeners would have known anything about it she said I'm gonna show them

1:41:30this is real even and this a even if this is a civil rights you know a milestone I'm gonna also show them and newspaper reporters surveying the crowd said people were awestrucked they didn't know what she was singing about but just that a voice could do this really that's what gets forget forgotten about the that concert one that's written about how well did she did she sing well that day she sure did you know is there a good way is there a really good recording of the concert the radio broadcast there was there's a radio broadcast but that was an NBC and it was and it was brought and it was broadcast and but the other thing that people forget about that concert okay there are there's a platform with sponsors supreme court justices and senators and Catherine Hepburn and people like that and 75,000 people she's greeted it's a big of course her mother and her two younger sisters come from Philadelphia for this big day and she's you know a news

1:42:35around the world of course none of the Anderson women in 1939 could stay at any hotel in Washington DC so from all this she has to rely on it had been arranged Gifford Pinsho was the former progressive republican governor two-term governor of Pennsylvania her home state his wife was big supporter civil rights women's rights they had the Anderson women stay with them at their home in Washington I mean that's the part of our history that we keep it's not only that she as an artist I think is underrated but even the what she did as a civil rights pioneer is forgotten that she had to face the humiliation of not being able to stay in any place in Washington your source material you had quite a bit obviously you had to go into multiple languages to see how she was received in Germany but I'm curious about her you note in her memoir that she left

1:43:38certain details including about her father and his business out oh yes he had a side business selling alcohol which I guess you know she didn't you know you get a sense of why she left that out and what else did she leave out that by one she she left out any mention of well and throughout her whole life she's the only romantic relationship she ever owned up to was with Orpheus Fisher the man she eventually married not until 1943 and she you know she went to in 1935 she was on a tour of Europe and she went made it to the Soviet Union if you can imagine in 1935 two tours and while and the Soviet government puts her up at a spa for two weeks as a gift from the government and there she has a fling with a younger Russian Jewish man who was a actor and reader and who was apparently very passionate and there are we have his letters but not hers so and she of

1:44:42course never ever ever mentioned this you know so there are there are things like that but um and also the other thing I do talk about in the book this is how much so she worked with a ghostwriter Howard Taubman who was very very faithful to the recorded tapes which you can hear at the University of Pennsylvania at the library and does that where all of her stuff is that's where all her all all of her stuff is and and he and he by the way talking about conflict of interest in journalism he had my job he was the chief classical music critic of the of the New York Times at the time he wrote he was her ghostwriter they kept it quiet his name was not given and even in mention not even in the avalicments or anything like that no in the acknowledgments yes editorial help but but not that he actually wrote you know and he was left out of all the reviews he was getting sharing money that he made from it it would be like if I had as a critic

1:45:44was the ghostwriter for Renee Fleming's memoir and we kept it quiet and we were both making money and I kept reviewing her positively I mean it was that was just total different era of journalism yeah I mean if I always say be careful when you ask about the good old days of journalism you don't want to know what some of the rules used to make exactly but once she finally got the draft to the book from from Howard Taubman she and her first thing was she wanted everything about the Lincoln Memorial concert taken out this is Jacob Goldstein from what's your problem running a business is hard enough don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other one for sales another for inventory a separate one for accounting that software overload Odo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all CRM accounting inventory e-commerce HR fully integrated easy to use and built to grow with your business thousands have already made

1:46:48why not you try Odo for free at od o o dot com that's od dot com did you know every 36 minutes a child in the US is diagnosed with cancer which means some of the bravest warriors you'll ever meet aren't professional athletes are superheroes they're the kids in this fight that's why I'm proud to support Hyundai hope on wheels for the past 28 years with support from Hyundai their dealers and every new Hyundai sold hope on wheels has contributed over 300 million dollars to childhood cancer research helping save more than 40 thousand kids but we're not done yet let's bring every warrior home join our fight at Hyundai warriors dot com this is Tony a.l. from the real report with Tony a.l. and Uncle murder you haven't noticed how everything keeps going up rents going up streaming services are going up even your favorite burrito spot suddenly thinks salsa should cause extra but with boost mobile you and your phone bill don't have to play the will it's go up soon game because boost mobile has an unlimited torque text and data plant at a price that'll never go up it's the same price you'll pay for life meaning you're set to never worry about your

1:47:51bill increasing again for as long as you're on the plan while the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and dime you boost mobile gives you unlimited wireless at one set price for life imagine something in your budget actually staying the same you'll pay the same for unlimited wireless when you're posting mirror selfies in your 20s and when you're posting mirror selfies in retirement some things never change switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up only at boost mobile after 30 gigabytes customers may experience slow speeds customers will pay 25 dollars a month as long as they remain active on the boost unlimited plan this is actually like you know the from the almost famous podcast you ever notice you and your spouse keep saying we need to get away but you never actually plan anything that was us until we did something fun and spontaneous we went to resort past calm there are hundreds of hotel resorts pools and spots and private beaches that you can enjoy you can spend the day at a luxury resort pool spa massage without

1:48:51booking an overnight stay and listen I may have only been like 15 minutes from home but it felt like it was a whole different world and I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed so just go to resort past calm choose your resort choose your day luxury resort day passes start at just $25 once you post your daycation people are going to ask where you are good to resort past calm slash almost famous and use the promo code almost famous to get $20 off when you spend $100 that's code almost famous at resort past calm slash almost famous that's why are we doing the book right and who feel where whom she trusted and her husband and tabman had to convince her no no that is quite wrong but she didn't she was you know open with it you know what I almost feel like now listening to that story that's your decision not to open with the Washington concert I feel like

1:49:53was it homage to her yeah also what I I I wanted to make clear how how for black for all of us but especially black people even today especially but especially back then I you can overstate how important it is to have a model to see somebody doing that so I begin with lean teen price who's still with us at 99 when lean teen so Anderson comes back from Europe and she starts singing here again and she has a concert in Jackson Mississippi and one day lean teen prices mother assessed her well Mary Anderson's not going to become a Laurel Mississippi but she is singing in Jackson and we're going to take the bus and we're going to go there and hear her so they did they went to see her now of course in this big auditorium they're sitting in the colored section you know and this woman walks out and elegant beautiful and starts singing and price has

1:50:59the supefinity and she looks at her and says to herself I'm going to be her that's my future at the time price was the star of her church choir she was taking piano lessons she thought maybe I could be a music teacher maybe I could be a voice singer and do some concerts then she's like that that I'm going to do that and what does she do she goes out and does it she becomes the most famous opera singer in the world you know price it's a wonderful way to open because it's the whole point is that she did break barriers she did yeah for the next generation and then and then so prices in the audience when Anderson makes her debut when one price makes her debut 1961 who's in the audience Mary and Anders I mean wow that's really moving what somebody listening right now one recording where would you tell people to start yeah I'm such an advocate of wanting her I can I pick two

1:52:07I'd say one one is Schubert's Ave Maria because it's so famous and it will the I think even to people knew to this music the eloquence the personalness the authenticity the sensitivity she brings to it is overwhelming but the other one is this spiritual crucifixion she recorded it in 1941 it wasn't released for years and years I don't know why because maybe she thought it was too personal the spiritual is amazing it's profound the words are did they begin day crucified day crucified my Lord and he never said a mumbling word not a word not a word not a word so it those spiritual is about Jesus's reaction that he never even with this punishment nothing never said a word in his defense

1:53:07the spiritual it's a profound piece it's meant to be sung very slowly and Anderson sings it at this glacial tempo so slow you think the me she's taking a risk that the music is gonna lose any kind of rhythmic thread it's just gonna go limp but it's so intense so the sound is so tremulous and grabs you and so hard-wrenching you hang on every word it's just it's four and a half minutes and it's one of the most profound vocal music recordings of the whole 20th century and it I'll tell you she sang it in 1935 in Salzburg of course she couldn't sing at the Salzburg festival black woman nazi nazi's overwhelming you know Austria but she a hall was the lobby of a hotel was rendered for her and she was kind of an informal concert for a few hundred people two people show up famous

1:54:12conductors Bruno Walter and Arturo Tuscany and on the program she sings some spirituals and everybody and one of them is crucifixion and the reporter reporting on the concert said at the end of crucifixion no one applauded not a sound you know and they will overcome you just sound haunting the way you and it look it's the subject matter itself if this is your fate this is the moment and it sounds like she interpreted it that deeply absolutely this gets to the title of my book which we we don't have to go into but Tuscany and he goes up to her afterwards and congratulates her then he says and this is the best quote we have is from her accompanist who is standing right next to him he says what I just heard one is privileged to hear only once in a hundred years so naturally her her big shot public manager Sol Hurac grabs that common and tweaks it into something

1:55:19much catchier and promotional so all of a sudden her posters are plastered with Mary Ann Anderson quote the voice of the century Arturo Tuscany and he never said that he never said that the social media of that day huh it would have been immediately tweeted out in Instagram didn't all of that right but at the the the president of penguin talked to encouraged me to tweak that phrase into voice of a century I didn't want to go anywhere because because that implies ambiguous I love that that it's not the voice it's voice it's like it almost means she exemplified the century she embodied this she sang for it she spoke for it both the possibilities and the horrible shortcomings you know of it right it's all there so and also by the way it implies a little she happened to also have one of the great voices of the century but but Tuscany also said what I loved about his quote he

1:56:21didn't say the voice I have just heard he said what I have just heard meaning everything your artistry your interpretation your sensibility and of course the voice so it well look it's a it's a tremendous story um congratulations that you think you that you got to do this because you know you get to put your imprint on this before I let you go I'm curious of your thoughts on the state of classical music um and I say this as I watch you know my last music professor was second chair at the national symphony still is still is at the national symphony they don't have a home they don't have a home um you know it is look one of the things that I've always said I talked myself out of of trying to go into music as a career was you know the opportunities are fewer and fewer all the time you know in them unless you're the best of the best it is it is really you want to

1:57:27talk about it's not one percent it's that one hundred you know one tenth of one percent are able to truly make a living in classical music um what's your sense of it as a as a public genre and what's your sense of it um you know how do we create a new youth movement that's a huge topic and we got two minutes no I'm kidding okay well the Kennedy Center story the tragedy there is that maintaining a symphony orchestra maintaining an opera company is already so challenging even if you have the most supportive board and trustees and people and patrons it's still so hard and uh so to have politics just take over and basically run the place into the ground is just just incredibly challenging now I'd say it's it's it's it's got much um but you know these come the

1:58:31the the thing the great hope I have um in a way I um A.I. could maybe even though we're all afraid of it help this if it dried I know I you've said things like it's on your podcast that it might drive people back to the original to the you know I am like I am a believer in this that the the great is the unintended consequence of of the artificialness of everything right is going to make us appreciate the the original everything yeah I know and we were talking about pop spits about the book on the Rolling Stones here you were both talking about it that that the kind of mystique of live instruments even that's been loo we've been losing that and we have to even in that field we have to get it back but my mantra in writing about this field and loving this field and promoting it and encouraging people is this is one field art form you have to hear live you you think you don't

1:59:35chamber music a string quartet what now and I'm usually digital I think the digitalization of it has turned it all into elevator music and it's not fair if you you hear string quartet playing in a hall that seats three or four hundred people no amplification I'm sorry when I was a kid I knew nothing about opera I got seats up and met the old met one I was really young I had no idea what these operas were about but the sound of these voices coming up and encircling me no amplification was enthralling every time I've brought some neo fight to the met opera New York who doesn't they'll the last ten times there's no amplification no no you know a symphony or to hear a great orchestra at Carnegie Hall that sound you can not record you know like we all love our recordings obviously they're wonderful it's like a task nini once said it's like getting a kiss

2:00:38over no sterency I'm sorry once said it's like getting a kiss over the telephone to you know but yeah but I think if young people could just hear this stuff and go and hear it in the places where it's meant to be performed I think I mean it's just enthralling it captivates you and if the demand that demand has to be there but it's a very expensive art form you know putting on opera is very very very labor intensive and but I believe in luck genre I believe in the art form I believe in it's the sustaining power and I it's never going to have the big audiences that of course pop music has but but we can sustain it we have sustained well what I always love to tell some of my friends who you know are not really maybe fluent in classical music or just sort of you know appreciate it when it's in a cool movie score you know which can which can is sort of and then they go to a rock concert that brings on you know a brass at least a brass accompaniment right or might have 20

2:01:49instrumentalists behind them you know a couple of trumpets a couple of french horns a couple of violins and it just it just fills the stadium in a way that no synthesizer could and no matter how many of those speakers you stack up right when for the absolute set on the floor so you know also in the kind of concert you're describing but also think of the symphony orchestra on a big concert stage there's a spatial element to listening that you know bases are here and the brasses are here and it's coming from different parts you know and you have a solo oboe sort of standing up against the whole orchestra some and there's that kinetic kind of spatial thing is also you have to be there to hear it there's really no recording yet I feel like that has truly been able to capture that sort of fullness no matter what kind of you know you can have the best and I'm you know I was an audiophile until until like our kids right then it's just sort of like there's only so much you hobbies you could keep up with but

2:02:53you can have the best sort of setup to you know whether you're playing vinyl or you're playing something that you know through the the best version digital version you think it and it's never going to fill the room the way live fills with them no I you're singing my gospel that no I agree again as someone who loves recordings and especially historic recordings all of Andreson's recordings I mean I never heard her live and so I it's all it's all I have you know and I cherish them and but no I agree to hear I would rather I would rather hear than the most highly touted best engineered amazingly perform recording of let's say Beethoven's heroic assembly I'd rather hear this julie art orchestra play it live you know or the man's school music orchestra play it live because those kids have never played it before usually they're thrilled and they're also by the way very good they're very talented they're technically

2:03:58incredible and someone who couldn't get into julie art I will tell you that that's I know maybe all worked out for the best you know it all it all it all works out let me uh if you could pick one if you cannot see classical music live what is your preferred recording is it final is is it a high high and digital sort of recording is it a 78 rather than a than a 33 on the vinyl you know have a preference for you're in a way you're asking the wrong person Beth I in a I I have found that many musicians and I'm first and foremost I was a pianist and played a lot of concerts and are not audio files because you can listen through anything I can listen through any old scratchy recording and so when digital came along for me just pragmatically it's clean it's

2:05:01not gonna deteriorate it's reliable it's maybe a little colder than vinyl sound you know an analog sound but there's a warm stuff vinyl it's hard to recreate anywhere else there is but you have to have really good equipment and it's just you know it's uh um and any old CD player can really you know so it's it's a convenience in a way that but uh anderson made some recordings from the early errors you know of a recording that are full of crackles and sin stuff it doesn't bother me I can listen right through you know to hear what I want want to want to want to hear um let me get you out of here yeah go ahead finish I'd say go hear something live yes that's I think we can't emphasize that I mean you know even if it's something one of my favorite summer um uh programs that we have here in DC is the national sympathy would would do movie night at wolf trap right right and you do a movie and then they do the score lot and it's just it's actually a great way to get to bring your kids

2:06:03into something right right right are you sort of you know what what music music do your kids listen to oh my my daughters just Taylor Swift and everybody else my friend she's awfully good go and adopt my daughter to pick up a guitar I mean both I look I I I insisted on piano lessons let's just say it was a chore for that uh when they were younger but you know I believe music is a language that you learn and so even a rudimentary understanding of music is only gonna help uh it's only gonna help you in life down the road let me get you out of here in this because I this used to be a fun little conversation I would have over the years when I was more active in the in the music world classical music world who would you say is the uh what's what's the premier symphony to get into now you know you'd have these little debates there was the Cleveland Orchestra there's New York and there's Philadelphia and there's you know they all had their strengths Chicago you know some would argue Boston of course you know with with with they

2:07:11had the problem arguably the most famous conductors for a while you know um who's got the belt right now who's the number one symphony in the country where where where do the musicians going no matter where they are they go I want to go there well I guess I have again a sort of different take on that because it's it's not just like you can calculate uh the excellence or well I'm sorry it's hard to tell the difference but it my guess is it's it some ways it might be even director specifically yes absolutely that I was just gonna say it's you know for example the Los Angeles the Philharmonic just became the first under the composer conductor S. Apex on and then Gustavo Dutama who's now coming this fall to the New York Philharmonic they were so such adventurous such an adventurous whole institution you know that there was a

2:08:12real uh connection between the conductors those two conductors especially Gustavo and the audience and those players and the programs they really they really had um they just made every concert seem important you know and it's was it were they playing greater than the Chicago Symphony than it's not that it's just something that was really happening there you know like you know you could compare to we now look back when you can read reviews criticizing Bernstein when he was a you know at the New York corner oh sure Arthur Feedler at the Boston pops would get criticized but it was fun we look back at Bernstein now in that those years are you kidding that was like the golden age ever you know everybody wanted to be with him and in New York that was just those concerts were incredible when you know he uh so it's really the mix that that makes an orchestra really great uh other I mean basically there's eight to ten great symphonies to belong to

2:09:13and it's really director specific really that that sort of drives the moment you know I have you know the Alan M. Asimpani came to to Carnegie Hall wants to play a concert and I and they did it was a really good concert and they played really well it was a new piece and so I said you know I'm sorry this sitting there that last night this was as good as any concert I can remember you know so it doesn't quite work that way but yeah when you have let's see book ustava does in New York you know he's got some big plans and he could he could be bringing all all his you know charisma and energy and ideas we'll see you know well I that's something to look forward to I'm glad to hear that Tony this was great um thanks for uh thanks for coming on thanks for sharing this book and I hope you appreciate it yeah and I know it comes out about a week or so yeah a little bit a

2:10:15little bit a little bit September 8th and it's um a couple a few weeks and yes thanks I was honored I'm very glad that you invited me thank you so much. This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem. Running a business is hard enough don't make it harder with it doesn't apps that don't talk to each other one for sales another for inventory a separate one for accounting that software overload Odo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all CRM accounting inventory e-commerce HR fully integrated easy to use and built to grow with your business thousands have already made the switch why not you try Odo for free at od o o dot com that's Odo dot com did you know every 36 minutes a child in the US is diagnosed with cancer which means some of the bravest warriors you'll ever meet aren't professional athletes are superheroes they're the kids in this fight that's why I'm proud to support

2:11:19Hyundai Hope on Wheels for the past 28 years with support from Hyundai their dealers and every new Hyundai sold hope on wheels has contributed over $300 million to childhood cancer research helping save more than 40,000 kids but we're not done yet let's bring every warrior home join our fight at Hyundai Warriors dot com this is Tony A.O. from the real report with Tony A.O. and Uncle murder you haven't noticed how everything keeps going up rents going up streaming services are going up even your favorite burrito spot suddenly thinks salsa should cause extra but with boost mobile you on your phone bill don't have to play the Willis go up soon game because boost mobile has an unlimited torque text and data plan at a price that'll never go up it's the same price you'll pay for life meaning you're said to never worry about your bill increasing again for as long as you're on the plan while the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and dime you boost mobile gives you unlimited wireless at one set price for life imagine something in your budget actually staying the same you'll pay the same for unlimited wireless when you're posting mirror selfies in your 20s and when you're

2:12:20posting mirror selfies in retirement some things never change switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up only at boost mobile after 30 gigabytes customers may experience slower speeds customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the boost unlimited this is actually a can't you from the almost famous podcast you ever notice you and your spouse keep saying we need to get away but you never actually plan anything that was us until we did something fun and spontaneous we went to resort pass calm there are hundreds of hotel resorts pools and spots and private beaches that you can enjoy you can spend the day at a luxury resort pool spa massage without booking an overnight stay and listen I may have only been like 15 minutes from home but it felt like it was a whole different world and I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed so just go to resort pass calm choose your resort choose your day luxury resort day passes start at just

2:13:22$25 once you post your daycation people are gonna ask where you are good resort pass calm slash famous and use the promo code almost famous to get $20 off when you spend $100 that's code almost famous at resort pass calm slash almost famous all right let's do a little top five list and some questions to wrap up this episode so here's my top five list this week and it's a it's the statewide sweeps to me a blue wave blue tsunami right I've gone through my my various stages here for you you know blue Mirage blue wave blue tsunami I'm gonna leave the blue Mirage category aside for this list I well actually you could look at it this way but I think there's a pretty good measurement particularly on the democratic side measuring this through the

2:14:23prism of the democrats here well five states where a democrat has a carry that state at least since 2012 for president where both a governor and a senate racist on the ballot and as you know I went through this about the importance of the top of the ticket it's governors races and many of these states how important you know these gubernatorial nominees might be to bringing over either you know flawed candidates or lesser known candidates or maybe the states a little too red or you got to try to drag it over but I thought a pretty good measurement I wanted to give you the five states where I think democrats at least have a 10% chance of of the dual sweep of winning the governor's race and the competitive senate race in that state and I think this is the way I would have you examine this top five if somehow all democrats swept all five of these states and I'm about to highlight here that are both featuring both you know competitive senate and marginally

2:15:24competitive governors races I say marginally because that's either be holder but they're not they're not below outs they made the list because you know it is somewhat competitive and in one case it's actually a governor's race is more competitive than the senate race and I'll get to that but I think a good way to see which categories if somehow republican swept all five of these states and the dual statewide well then that would be blue mirage territory and then the degrees of wave depend on how many of these states democrats sweep right if they can get all of them then it's a blue tsunami I'd argue three of the five if they swept you would call this either a very big wave bordering on blue tsunami and obviously four or five is there so I know I threw a bunch of caveats in there and you're like what the hell are you talking about here's the bottom line here's the five red states right where democratic presidential candidate has not carried that state since at least 2012 so it's been more than a decade since that state went blue in a presidential race here my top

2:16:31five states where democrats have a realistic chance of the sweep both in senate and gov and again it's like I'm not Michigan doesn't make this list because hey Joe Biden carried Michigan in 2020 and you know there's you know it's I think democrats are favored to sweep both races but the senate is definitely a coin flip diddo with a Minnesota or diddo with a that could see you know democrats when both the governor's race or that you know it doesn't qualify this is already sort of a blue or you know a purple state or a blue leaning state these are these red states basically that in the Trump era have been out of reach for democrats particularly in the presidential level and either out of reach either in a senate race or a gov race or both so coming in at number five is the state of florida okay florida this is the most unrealistic this is probably the hardest of of the of the states that were once competitive and haven't been in the Trump era put florida there this is probably the

2:17:34the tallest mountain for democrats to climb it's more you know they could in a blue wave scenario even you know they could lose both the governor's race and the senate race and still have a good year politically you would say this but i'm putting it on the list because I do think the governor's race is going to be close and I think if if somehow david jolay pulls it off we will say this was closer to being a big blue wave to slash tsunami and I think angi nixon may be more competitive than folks realize doesn't have the resources and the national parties not going to put it there which you may see more party realignments here than you realize there so look it's it's it's sort of it's at the tail end it is not a but but it's sort of you know because I say you have to have a top five lift florida's fifth but there's a big gap between four and five on my list number four on my list is cancels so cancels is interesting because now they've now they haven't elected a democratic

2:18:35senator since the 1930s and obviously this is the the the current governor is term limited from seeking a third term law kelly and it's a democrat so this is a case where if democrats are able to do something they haven't been able to do when they've won these governor's races which is have a new democrat replace the term limited democrat right it didn't happen with civilians and kelly is trying to see you know has she permanently shift the governing culture of the state now we'll see you know her preferred candidate lost in the primary the democratic nominee is one in part due to the the Kansas City chief steel but she's also been pretty front and center against data center expansion and things like that and then of course you know Republicans and Kansas are still having to carry the baggage of of saying brown back and those unpopular budget cuts and that's always a a something that that they got to hang on there but the real sort of

2:19:35blue tsunami test here is can democrats actually win a senate seat here they've got a good candidate and Adam Hamilton they've got they've they've been competitive before 2014 they had an independent Greg Orman who came who came within single digits of pat Roberts back in the day or right around single digits was right in the nine ten cut line on that but I promise you democrats were able to with flip this senate seat and I think Roger Marshall's uniquely vulnerable here he's not the he's not the most uh my Jerry Moran has been more front and center pushing back on Trump Marshall will never push back on Trump and I wonder if that's a problem for him if he's going to under performance some of the suburban areas of Kansas City Kansas and things like that uh so I think the possibilities are there but boy you would be in blue tsunami territory if democrats could win both in the same cycle a senate race and a governorate so number four so I put florida is is competitive but very unlikely Kansas competitive mostly unlikely my next three here are the more realistic

2:20:42sort of blue wave seats and I think if two of these three sweeps came in for the democrats of my top three here you would call it a significant blue wave and if all three came in I think you you would need to classify this as blue tsunami and I'm going to start with the state of Iowa I'm putting Iowa number three instead of Texas I debated back and forth number one the minute I say it is going to be you'll see why that was it the sort of the easier call here but number three on my list is is Iowa so what I'm saying is is I think the senate seats a very very tough hill for democrats to climb I told you I gave you all the data behind it last week and a couple of monologues there so I won't go into the the dirty details there but you know all you have to do is listen to Rob San the democratic nominee and how he campaigns and how he speaks about party politics you know he talked about that it for some reason for some reason he was asked the question if

2:21:43if you know senator grassley couldn't finish couldn't finish his seat you know would he who would he appoint you know what party would he appoint a democrat to replace grassland said no he'd he appoint an independent it was important for him to get that out there right he's trying to send a message to those that are not happy with the democratic brand in Iowa that he's a different type of democrat that he's more of an independent minded democrat but that's also a reminder why in Iowa I think it's going to be very much harder for a democrat to win a senate seat than a gov see governor's individual person a senate seat is sort of a party caucus vote right you know and it's it's in some ways voters usually you know are more likely to pick to to prioritize jersey color over an individual than they do in a governor's race um look republicans also have a very weak governor uh gubernatorial nominee I mean this is acclaim guy is having to make the case that he's an actual island when you're less than 60 days from election and and you've still got to answer serious questions

2:22:46about how much of an island you are in a place that is very proud of being uh of of living in that state I just think it's a it's I don't want to say it's unwinnable because it's a red leaning state but sac lanes as close to being an unelectable nominee as you can come up with uh in in in this current um in this current situation so a democratic sweep here of both the gubernatorial in the senate race definitely is indicated indicative of a blue wave in my opinion um and I have a feeling if if both of those come in then then there's going to be sweeps with the next potentially sweeps with the next two states we're talking about here and I'm going to get to the part where the state that I think some people are going to feel as if is an impossibility and that's Texas um we already know the center race is close with taleriko having a slight advantage um the more remarkable race that has fallen under the radar because of ten packs in and taleriko is the governor's race Greg Abbott's trying to do something nobody's ever done in Texas went a fourth term for governor uh fourth

2:23:48four year term for governor uh that is you know you could just look at recent history fourth terms are very difficult to get particularly for consecutive terms sometimes it's a lot easier to do with the way jerry brown did it or to do it the way terry brand stead did it you you you win a couple of times you leave you come back and win two more times um the but four straight right mario Cuomo was trying for a fourth until it sort of blew up in his face so uh I just think there's a natural fatigue right throw in the fatigue with the national party throw in the um disappointment with you know you have a divided republican party in the state right there's you have both a rising democratic electorate in the state and a divided republican party um particularly on issues like the way this voucher situation uh has gone education cuts very similar to what we see what we saw developing in canzes were really a divided republican party gave democrats

2:24:49an opening and essentially democrats moved to become the the the republican light party uh as far as state government is concerned and it was a lot of former republicans it became democrats who uh who have helped fuel this movement as well i'm not saying you're there where you have republicans switching parties in texas but you do have this divide that exists and I think that is i mean you saw it here so look i think the data center flip flop i avid was an acknowledgement that this racist way too close for comfort um would i bet on habit losing no i would not all right i think that i i think there's a pretty hard ceiling um on this um but it's but i say pretty hard right i don't think the concrete is completely dry uh so uh maybe maybe uh you can break through but certainly if democrats swept both of these you would you would say you would say blue synonym i just think the likelihood is greater than we we fully appreciate and i you know look do i think either i or texas are likely for democrats to sweep those two top state red races i don't

2:25:55but you're in like the 15 to 20 percent chance range right say anything you know and when you're in one and six one and seven possibilities here that's that can happen that's realistic that's where Trump was sitting in about a one in four one in five chance becoming president he became president so you know that you know that i would not i would not dismiss that but the number one state and to me frankly it'll be a test about blue you might argue blue mirage or blue wave will be if somehow democrats get shut out of Ohio democrats win one and lose one or democrats sweep the governor's race in the center race um if atmospherics are as strong as i think they're developing then i expect the democrats to sweep in Ohio i think that the unique nature that you know big texas is uh very unpopular with the middle of the electorate v evick rama swami the republican leading the ticket is kind of you know made his you know peep that's what he's known for is being

2:26:59a tech entrepreneur very close with that industry um what was a net positive for him and a republican primary when he was running for president might be seen as a net negative now with swing voters and independence uh or even some members of maga who are are grown a little bit um leery of big tech here and so i think i think go high as the best chance democrats have a pull in the sweep in a state that they have not carried in a presidential election since 2012 uh and we're just you know and it would i think a sweep would indicate you would put this state by the way in all five of these cases if democrats sweep the governor in center race i think it puts that state in play in the presidential because to do both means you fundamentally have adjusted something you've shifted an independent electorate or at least it's fluid enough that it is worth contesting in a presidential year um so in another way it's as a you know the top five red states the democrats are going to another way to look at this top five red states and democrats are going to learn about whether they

2:28:05should target them in 28 i put them in the same order they sweep Ohio Ohio goes into the battle ground you sweep texas texas goes into the presidential battle ground you sweep Iowa i was back in the presidential battleground i believe the same thing with kansas and flor so that might be you know as as i'm talking out loud here they even better way the five red states that depending on how successful democrats are could end up in the presidential battleground come 2028 and number one of this list for me is Ohio number two is texas and i think if you look at it those absolutely you could see the scenario where that possibility becomes more real than we think after all at this point in time in 2006 virginia was still seen as a reach by democrats not just in a senate race but even being targeted in a presidential race that democrats win the senate race in 06 suddenly democrats decide hey maybe they maybe it's time to put virginian

2:29:07calorado into the battleground low and behold virginian calorado are now semi reliably blue states so there you go there's the top five list this week the podcast top five list is brought to you by fandal baseball fans do you think you know who's hitting a home or today well fandal is giving you a free chance to call your shot with what they call daily dingers joining the action is easy just make your free pick on who's hitting a home run in their game and if you're right you'll get a profit boost to use on your next bet for a chance at extra winnings you got nothing to lose and a lot to gain and don't forget you can make a free pick every day during the m ob season shoot if you're a nats fan all you got to do is decide is it going to be a cj an abrums home run day or is it going to be a james wood home run day probably you'll do okay anyway it's just another reason why fandal is the home for home run so you're ready to play your game today join all the action at vandal dot com that's fandall dot com to play daily dingers

2:30:13make your free pick on who's hitting a home play ball and swing for the fences on fandal an official part of the m l b 21 plus and select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas start casino it's 18 plus and dc Kentucky Wyoming if you have a gambling problem call 1 800 gambler or 1 800 my reset or call 1 8 8 8 7 8 9 7 7 7 7 7 you can also visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut you can visit the md gambling help dot org in Maryland for help you can visit gambling help line m a dot org you can call 803 275050 and Massachusetts you can call 1 8 7 7 8 hope and why or you can simply text hope and why new york uh in order to get some help with any gambling concerns finally you can also call 1 8 7 7 7 7 0 7 8 6 7 if you're in Louisiana this is Jacob Goldstein from what's your problem

2:31:18running a business is hard enough don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other one for sales another for inventory a separate one for accounting that software overload Odo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all CRM accounting inventory e-commerce HR fully integrated easy to use and built to grow with your business thousands have already made the switch why not you try Odo for free at od o o dot com that's odu dot com did you know every 36 minutes a child in the u s is diagnosed with cancer which means some of the bravest warriors you'll ever meet aren't professional athletes are superheroes they're the kids in this fight that's why i'm proud to support Hyundai hope on wheels for the past 28 years with support from Hyundai their dealers and every new Hyundai sold hope on wheels has contributed over 300 million dollars to childhood cancer research helping save more than 40,000 kids but we're not done yet let's bring every warrior home join our fight at hunday warriors dot com this is Tony a

2:32:22ill from the real port with Tony a on uncle murder you haven't noticed how everything keeps going up rents going up streaming services are going up even your favorite burrito spot suddenly thinks salsa should cause extra but with boost mobile you and your phone bill don't have to play the will it's go up soon game because boost mobile has an unlimited torque text and data plant at a price that'll never go up it's the same price you'll pay for life meaning you're set to never worry about your build increasing again for as long as you're on the plan while the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and dime you boost mobile gives you unlimited wireless at one set price for life imagine something in your budget actually staying the same you'll pay the same for unlimited wireless when you're posting mirror selfies in your 20s and when you're posting mirror selfies in retirement some things never change switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up only at boost mobile after 30 gigabytes customers may experience slowest speeds customers will pay 25 dollars a month as long as they remain active on a boost unlimited plan this is actually

2:33:22like you know the from the almost famous podcast you ever notice you and your spouse keep saying we need to get away but you never actually plan anything that was us until we did something fun and spontaneous we went to resort past calm there are hundreds of hotel resorts pools and spots and private beaches that you can enjoy you can spend the day at a luxury resort pool spa massage without booking an overnight stay and listen I may have only been like 15 minutes from home but it felt like it was a whole different world and I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed so just go to resort past calm choose your resort choose your day luxury resort day passes start at just 25 dollars once you post your daycation people are going to ask where you are good to resort past calm slash almost famous and use the promo code almost famous to get 20 dollars off when you spend a hundred dollars that's code almost famous at resort past calm slash almost famous all right let's do a little

2:34:26last check greetings from her most of each California in the wake of 9-11 some argued the attacks should have been treated as criminal acts rather than acts acts of war in the spirit of your Ford Nixon retrospective how might history have unfolded differently if we had taken that approach would we still have it made in Afghanistan and could it have blunted the case for the subsequent invasion of Iraq I know the national desire for vengeance probably made that impossible but it feels worth examining keep up your edifying and affordable work while I appreciate that Todd hey great name obviously so this is actually the subject of column I'm working on this week sort of a little bit of fallout from 9-11 and I'm focusing on sort of our loss of privacy and how that sort of happened the timing the growth of the tech industry and our comfort with giving up some privacy in exchange for security ended up putting us in a bad in a bad relationship with big tech

2:35:30essentially the the short form a version of the column and all right but it's interesting what you the idea that if we had treated this as a criminal act rather than as an act of war so one of the what ifs I did have done is what if Gorehead won the 2000 presidential in 9-11 still have it you know there were a lot of Democrats that were arguing for hey let's let's do this in a court of law let's do this like we did Oklahoma City let's do this you know um so I do think that there's a chance that Gore might have gone down that road as president more so than then Bush wanted to um but you know I think no matter what we had ended up in Afghanistan I mean for one is you're not wrong about there's the need of whoa who do we we got a we got a we got a we got to get somebody for this right uh we got a blow something up um so we were going to do

2:36:33something you're not wrong about that and and investigation was going to take us all the way to Afghanistan so the question is would we have treated Afghanistan as sort of all special forces right not tried to put the Taliban essentially as an enemy of our state in order to deal with this you know and and you know certainly now that we're have I guess sort of you know this now diplomatic relations with the Taliban you know it does seem odd now in retrospect right um look the the the the bigger point of your question is had we looked at it as just focusing on the act itself and who is behind the act itself

2:37:36I'm not sure we would have kept this as a criminal investigation but if we just stayed focused on disrupting al-Qaeda wherever wherever we were finding them right kind of like the Israelis you know uh with Munich and how they dealt with that I don't think it takes us to a rock right like that seem to be right a rock feel it and it looks worse and worse right history you know makes the decision look worse and worse all the time and there just wasn't a connection right and the attempts to create a connection to with or with of of of a rock to al-Qaeda might have still been there right there still might have been forces within the government who wanted to make that case who who believed these terrorist organizations were working together more than they weren't um but we just made this about al-Qaeda you know is our is the situation in the Middle East more stable today um you know it's funny if we don't invade a rock I don't think Saddam is still in power or

2:38:37that the bathists are still in power I think the Arab swing would have overthrown a rock now you might say it would probably be a government that would be very close to Iran oh wait that's what we have a government that's very close to Iran so my point being is that I I think Iraq was probably not as easy as it was to topple who saying I think it tells you that he wouldn't have survived the Arab swing um in that brief period had had we not touched had we ended up deciding not to admit a rock um and that ultimately is still the it is still that the original sin of this one right like of all the mistakes we made after 9-11 and many of them to me are very small you you can you see how it happened and it might have happened no matter what right we were in a certain period we were country was nervous we were willing to give up privacy and exchange for security um so many of the things that happen I think stay happening um it is interesting that if you've noticed we're

2:39:46you know we're back to treating the 9-11 hi-jackers as criminals again with a judge and we're still trying to which now now all of the information that's been gotten about uh Khalid Sheikh Muhammad has suddenly been thrown out by a court if you've been following that at all so it is uh that was the other problem is I don't know with with the decision and I think it would have this would have happened under no matter the administration we were going to strengthen the intel community's ability to get information whether or not it was going to be information you could introduce in a court of law was was was was not the priority at the time so the likelihood that we would have gotten coerced information or information you never would have been able to use in a trial might have also made treating it as a criminal act very difficult as well so anyway it's a I think it's a fair question it's a good time to have this conversation it's a good time to be

2:40:49thinking about alternative but ultimately right the the biggest what if is what if we had just stayed focused on dealing with the hi-jackers and the organization that was behind the plot al-Qaeda and just state laser focused on that might afghanistan be a better country today because of it might the middle east be more stable today I don't that I yeah maybe um but I think in hindsight creating a global war on terror didn't work and we're certainly now weaker today because of it it's certainly a contributor to the weakness today Donald Trump doesn't become president without his inability to essentially cast an entire faction of the Republican party into the dustbin of history which is what he did so all of it let you know had to happen first to get to the moment we're in at the time and if you think we're in a bad moment then then we made

2:41:52pretty bad decisions in the first few years after 9-11 all right next question comes from latisha w and she writes hey check long time listener first time caller from pencil manious 10th district recent coverage of john fedemain got me wondering do voters have any recourse if they believe an elected official is simply refusing to do the job or represent their constituents should there be some mechanism such as a recall or a special election rather than voters having to wait out an entire term especially a six year senate term thanks for everything you do keep calling them as you see them regardless of the letter after their name thanks latisha well latisha the bottom line is there is a recall elections for federal office holders are just not constitutional there are a handful of states that have tried it there was a group that wanted to recall Bob Mendenze during his the height of his thickadillos in New Jersey and a court threw it out it's the same

2:42:54it's just like the term limits laws that a bunch of states tried to pass in the 90s were all deemed unconstitutional for a congress because if you don't put it in the constitution it's unconstitutional right there are no term limits in the constitution and u.s senate terms are set for six years now what's interesting is in my little research on your question here is that in our previous constitution the articles of the confederation there was a recall provision for federal office holders it got to it got deliberately left out when they did the new constitution the 1789 constitution so it was considered and they decided not to so you don't on a u.s senator there is no recall provision right many states have can you can do recalls for state or even city elected officials and we see this all the time but there you need a constitutional amendment period there's nothing else there is no

2:43:57other work around up was one other work around to get rid of a u.s senator two thirds of the senate can expel expel a u.s senator right and like that was something Bob Hackwood was going to do was going to happen to him he likely would have been expelled but I believe he resigned before the before there would be an expulsion vote so you know most senators well so far you know you know most of the time the threat of expulsion and the vote counting on expulsion convinces a senator to just go ahead and resign on that front so no you're stuck with federalment through the end of now his terms up in 28 and we shall see what happens right but he is it is a sick and it was designed this right the whole point is is that you didn't want the senate to be at the whim of sort of of of sort of instant gratification you know where where mob rule can sort of grab hold of things

2:44:57you know over a six month period you the point of having these longer terms was sort they literally had the political space to be the cool to be what the front pounders intended which was the cooling saucer which is why you can see a senator get elected under one scenario in one type of atmosphere six years later the atmosphere completely changed and they may not fit that atmosphere at all right you know federalmen was was not an ordinary politician and that was a you was something that mattered a lot to democrats in in 2022 and in 2021 especially in the wake of of trump getting elected now he might not he's obviously not going to fit the mood of where the democratic electorate's going to be but who knows maybe he fits the mood of where republicans want to want to go which is they want to have a kind of classic candidates or who knows so I'm not going to declare the end of federalments political career here but I do get the sense he doesn't

2:45:58like being a senator I think he enjoyed being the mayor of Braddock that's maybe a hell of a lot more than he's enjoyed either being lieutenant governor or a us senator but sadly no recall election but you can start the constitutional moment for it letitian all right happy week one next question comes from a familiar email or bill s and newberg or again the fighting sixth as he calls it who doesn't want their congressional district known as the fighting whatever right isn't it isn't that what the co-maric gave us everything was the fighting six I mean the fighting eighth of for jimmy happy week one my favorite games where you mess over Rutgers and western michigan almost over michigan certainly better than watching my mariner's lose to the a's you often encourage politicians to speak american so I'm curious why do you sometimes seem reluctant to plainly use the word racism whether discussing vvc rubber swami with john casecrab iron donalds under performance in north florida thanks and go you bill s into it um I it's it's it's it's a fair thing to point

2:46:59out I try to be careful about um motive right you know it looks like racism looks like lying if I do it I would I try to put it that way because I do think um there's certain words that when you accuse somebody of it there's no un you know none ring the bell and you know it's uh I don't I'm I'm not trying to get people canceled um and I don't want to presume you know I look I see the pattern a person of color has a harder time winning over uh so uh winning over a conservative constituency in the south uh it looks like candidate of color has a problem winning over a conservative constituency in the Midwest right michigan and possibly in Ohio um but if you're talking

2:48:025% of an entire faction of an electorate I don't want to look like I'm painting an entire electorate is racist or an entire party is racist so that's what you're you're you're fair to pick that up and you're right I am cautious uncertain words racism you know when accusing somebody of racism I think it's easier to say something as racist uh you're behaving in the way a racist would have I thought I've always thought the um one of one of the few positive legacies of uh Andrew Gillam and his uh gubernatorial campaign in 18 is in this great report uh would run to santa's took issue with being called a racist he said I'm not saying you're a racist I'm saying racist think you're a racist um I think that's the line I try to walk and if I and I'm sure I have failed and I understand some people like well you should soften you

2:49:05gotta tell it like it is well I think you tell it like it is but I don't like my motives question and you know some people who will assume that I I have a certain take on him and they'll say well it's because your wife's this or it's because your parents are that or because your kids are this and it's like I don't want motive to get in the way of the analysis and you know people again when you ring certain bells uh it in you imply motive it's why you know I famously didn't say liar to kelly and conway I said falsehoods because again it's motive maybe they're that delusional and they actually believe they didn't commit the murders maybe they actually believe that's that they only dreamed of murdering their ex-wife um uh the so it is there's always a one percent chance at it there's self delusion in there

2:50:08and it's not motive or whatever so anyway you can say I'm creating semantics or I'm not but the minute you're that declarative then there's a whole group of people I'm trying to talk to to uh and listen to reason that may tune me out so you know look man I'm as I always say I'm trying to uh I'm trying to widen my aperture and I'm trying to widen the space here for us to have the conversations we need to have to make a better a better democracy and a better America all right uh by the way I have to add you you you talked about you messed over Rutgers which was fantastic and the in the western Michigan Michigan game was just not a well played game I think there's no doubt what the game of the weekend was and it's the old misleave game that was something else that was that was two good offenses I think two questionable defenses I think

2:51:12um SMU FSU was certainly close but did not have what Louisville and Ole Miss had in that and in in many ways SMU FSU felt like a game where there was a good team making a lot of mistakes SMU and a bad a mediocre team not knowing how to take advantage of opportunities in in in FSU um but I have to say I think my favorite game of the weekend and in fairness you may have written this before the Louisville Ole Miss game but I think that was if you're just pure entertainment value game of the week was was I think Louisville Ole Miss all right greetings from Texas 4 if the midterms produce a 50 50 Senate and a Republican Senator later resigns becomes incapacitated or otherwise unable to serve what happens to control of the chamber would Republicans retain control despite having one fewer Senator or could control shift to Democrats of the show in the College football talk cage looked fantastic can only imagine your thoughts on what happened in an arbor Saturday night time well hopefully you uh like what I said on Monday a Monday pod about

2:52:17I do think we've got a there is something there is a fix we can make to increase you know to basically increase the credibility of officiating in college footballs we got to take the conferences out of the out of being in charge of officials um and they replay and all of that stuff just get conferences out of it just one less conspiracy rabbit hole for people to go to well look we have provisions and you wait the governor would replace of the state it you you got to appoint somebody now let's let's let's talk about the two places with two of two fairly old senators one of whom is currently not been able to make it to the floor of the Senate in a couple in a couple of months where there's a Democratic governor and in Iowa where there is likely to be a Democratic governor um and of course if you just heard my top five list with uh with Iowa in there you heard about the uh question Rob Sand was asked about replacing Chuck Grassley what would he do

2:53:22and he said well I'd appointed independent which would only like that would be fascinating well look I mean it's you know majority is decided by the party that has the most senators with them so if you're at a 50 50 Senate and the scenario you describe happens the two likely as candidates right that would really make this complicated but Kentucky's the most complicated because Kentucky legislature passed a law saying that the governor has to replace with the party of the of the deceased senator but that is I don't that has never been tested in state courts and I think if the state constitution simply gives the governor the power of of appointment so I'm not so sure uh I think that if McConnell somehow and look McConnell's getting replaced so so let that it's a it's less of it it's less of an issue going into the next Congress since he's

2:54:23not going to be there but with Grassley you know if we're going to use that example uh he's up in 28 but something happens from in 27 we're sitting with a 50 50 Senate what does Rob Sand do right and what does that independent do um you know I you know what the zeitgeist would be on the left and you know what the zeitgeist would be on the right and it would uh it would put it would be interesting to see the how Sand would handle the pressure of that moment uh but ultimately there would be no vacancy the the governor of the deceased senator immediately needs to appoint somebody you saw darling Graham got appointed within she was a senator I think within 36 hours they had her already sworn in with something that quick so this is you know that's how absolute the good the governor's power is to appoint a temporary replacement now legislatures can decide you know some states you

2:55:26have to have a special election within 90 days I think that's a Massachusetts it others it's the next federal election but um there would be no vacancy it would be an immediate filling but right party of the governor party of the person that you know if that differs that's when you start to see some uh quite a bit of horse trading all right last question for the uh for this episode Anthony and California's 30th congressional district he says um hoping to become a member of the two timers club here I really got into college football last year in part because of your podcast right on welcome I want more Californians in the college football and I'm glad to see Kyle you CLA USC stand for all starting to invest real dollars into football so who does uh and he said uh in part because of your podcast and it became something I love talking about with my brother who sadly passed away earlier this summer I'm so sorry to hear that um so thank you for continuing

2:56:28to be a source for me to learn from and enjoy the sport as a Steelers fan which quarterbacks should I be keeping an eye on this season if Pittsburgh ends up looking for a first round QB next year thanks Anthony well first of all uh Anthony I think you ought to I think I'm I'm weirdly bullish on Drew Aller who is the backup to Rogers who I think's going to start three games this year five games this year um what if Drew Aller is just the type of sort of Pittsburgh quarterback you've gotten used to that that knows how to read a defense play action pass sort of it's got a little ruthless burger in him he's just sort of you know it's it's certainly more of a 20th century type quarterback not necessarily a 21st century but I I say that you know what's the Pittsburgh way you want to have a when Pittsburgh's good they have a great offensive line a great running game and a good quarterback so I would not I would like to see Aller I'd like to see what he could do

2:57:29uh but I do think he has to have a good offensive line uh but look the quarterbacks you know um there's some there here's what's happening I think you now you know the quarterback position has always been incredibly important and it's even more so over the last 20 years you are now getting a concentration of great athletes who are choosing to be you know used to be you didn't always put your best athlete in quarterback you might put in football you might put your best athlete at running back you might put them in at at wide receiver and if you put it in a quarterback you it's because you ran a a certain type of offense well now we've mainstreamed the idea of dual threat quarterbacks quarterbacks who could run pass on the run and all those things and so I just think we've college feels like it's never been deeper uh in the quarterback ranks and then quarterback development and I think the idea now that that college quarterbacks are going to stay

2:58:29in college because they can make good money frankly better money in college if you're a top quarterback than the first couple of years as an NFL pro because of the way they've structured their system you're going to get like guys like bone X who had 60 starts in college and certainly knew what the hell he was you know the the learning curve was just was was was much shorter for him and within you know two years he's he's guiding them as a as a contender to playoff guy so um look I think uh obviously I think Miami's quarterback looks like he's got all the tools just incredible touch super accurate um and this is now a third stop where he's impressed I look at it's the same reason why I'm so bullish on camworn and back and now uh men says that he did this at two lane under one coaching staff he did it at Duke under another coaching staff he's already doing it Miami in a third so what does that tell you he processes information quickly right just like camworn he went through

2:59:30three different systems and seemed to succeed and get better each year uh Carson Beck is now showing that ability to do that I think that in a weird way these quarterbacks that can go from different systems um that's who I want in my NFL team right that means they're coachable you know the way how transient NFL coaching is both at the top but particularly at the coordinator level you're going to go through different systems right and if you're not easily adaptable to new systems you're not going to be a successful NFL quarterback so I look at those guys and and you know so men said looks like he's got that at NFL arm at Miami Dante Moore looks like he's got it at Oregon but I'm not as sold on more yet as others are I think he's got all the tools but you can have a lot of tools but they may it may not all come together uh go watch a South Carolina game and this kid Le Nore sellers he's another one it's got all this talent you're just you know what happens

3:00:32if you had a little bit more talent around him but wow does he got a lot I'm not sure levit is going to translate as well to the pros uh which is the kid who did great at LSU and I worry about trying to add chambliss his size a little bit but boy his ability to throw the run is really impressive as well um so you know if you're I look at it as a who would fit the Steelers mindset right there's also like I always think there's there's just certain fits right certain cultural fits right I tell you there's something about archmaning of the Steelers that would feel correct I don't know why I think that right he's a big kid right um in that sense he's got a little Rothos burglar because he's also mobile the way both Rothos burglar and Bradshaw were so you know maybe maybe it's arch uh that you should be focused on but I'm gonna end with where I began don't give up on Drew Aller you never know when your future sitting on your own bench right

3:01:35how many you know just as to see how I'll see Hawks uh I guess that's like ask the San Francisco 40 Niners and the random seventh round quarterback that turned out to be a franchise quarterback of Brock Purti uh so it's uh and there's something about Aller Penn State guy Steelers I don't know it just maybe I'm wanted to work because it just feels like such the the right fit for the Pittsburgh fan base right then he's got the grittiness that you want for a Steelers quarterback so uh let's not give up on Drew Aller just yet all right with that uh welcome back to the Wednesday podcast so I'm giving you we're giving you updates every single day of the week Mondays Tuesdays it's it's super Tuesday with Chris Salisa Wednesday another standalone podcast Thursday another standalone podcast and of course on the weekend you've got news fear so plenty of places to get what I hope is a little better informed about American politics however it looks on it any given day

3:02:41with that I appreciate you coming here this podcast is politics for the rest of us I'll see you in 24 hours you this is Jacob Goldstein from what's your problem running a business is hard enough don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other one for sales another for inventory a separate one for accounting that software overload Odo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all CRM accounting inventory e-commerce HR fully integrated easy to use and built to grow with your business thousands have already made the switch why not you try Odo for free at odno.com that's odu.com did you know every 36 minutes a child in the US is diagnosed with cancer which means some of the bravest warriors you'll ever meet aren't professional athletes or super heroes they're the kids in this fight that's why I'm proud to support Hyundai hope on wheels for the

3:03:43past 28 years with support from Hyundai their dealers and every new Hyundai sold hope on wheels has contributed over 300 million dollars to childhood cancer research helping save more than 40,000 kids but we're not done yet let's bring every warrior home join our fight at Hyundai warriors.com this is Tony a.o from the real report with Tony a.o. and Uncle murder you haven't noticed how everything keeps going up rent streaming even extra so such a favorite burrito spot but with boost mobile you don't have to play the will let's go up soon game boost mobile offers an unlimited talk text and data plan at a price that'll never go up it's the same price you'll pay for life switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up only at boost mobile after 30 gigabytes customers may experience slower speeds customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the boost unlimited plan healthcare can feel complicated that's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier more affordable and more effective we're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better

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