Full closing arguments from the Lindsay Clancy murder trial

0:00Here are the full closing arguments from the defense and prosecution in the Lindsey Clancy murder trial. We'll have analysis on what happened on NBC 10 Boston's Commonwealth Confidential. Watch on YouTube wherever you stream your news or listen on your favorite podcast platform. About five weeks ago that we met like this and I indicated to you that thank you for incredible service. That all of us mean that sincerely. You took literally more than a month out of the alive. It's sat here, mentally incredibly. Through some of the toughest, most gut-wrenching things that any person can be subjected to or anything.

1:03I indicated that sadly, I sure has carried this from or with them for years. And the service that you have performed I have never seen before. You have listened to evidence. You have been fair. You have been objective. You've listened to the judges instructions. And you've carried them into your heart. Consistent with your oath, which is a very, very solemn. Pass between government and Lindsey has placed herself on her country, which country you are as a jury of the peers. When you consider what's at stake here in the sense of what we've been dealing with.

2:13Corridor. Dawson. Calvin. She knows. Loss. And that's why we think, Corridor, Dawson. Calvin. For that. They are the victims of this case. They are the victims of the horrible, horrific act that has been laid at your feet as jurors to decide. Whether or not, Lindsey is guilty. You're under reasonable doubt as his honor instructed you and will instruct you what that means.

3:18That standard of proof that we as citizens in this country are so blessed to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt before the government. Trages any citizen with a crime. I don't care how many cops you have in here. How many BAs are sitting here? How many people are sitting in the front row? And they're all going to sit there and be proud of this prosecution. I told you in an opening statement that this is a prosecution that has ripped the soul out of this girl. This is what they had. This is their family. How does this turn into this?

4:19How? Because of the damn medicine and the lousy medical care that she got. You can troupe as many paid experts as you want to come in here and tell a jury, oh, well, she didn't say that she heard voices inside her head. She said she heard voices from outside her head. She said she was making chicken make make make make make make make make make make make make make make it. She said something as I think and I'm used and I try real hard to tell you what my opinion is that this woman was acting in her right mind. When these children were killed. So when you consider the evidence in this case, you consider the person who was in front of you, who is the defendant as the government refers to her.

5:19This is honorable. It wouldn't like me to tell you. Even though a person is a defendant, that system of justice, you don't have to defend against anything. The government has the burden of proof. When the DA decides to charge someone with a crime, he has the burden of proof. His assistance had the burden of proof. To prove number one, that Lindsey is guilty of this offense beyond a reasonable doubt and then prove number two. That Lindsey at the time killed her children was not suffering from a mental disease or defect. It caused her to have a lack of substantial capacity to appreciate, to know, to realize that what was being done while she was in a psychosis.

6:22But we'll laugh about that. It's just another woman. I guess it's just going to make an excuse. She's depressed. G A D, General Lang's I A D. Give her a couple of pills. She'll be all right. You know from looking at the objective evidence in this case. This young lady, believe me, I don't have many clients like that. This young lady did nothing wrong in her life. She was a nurse, a daughter, a wife, and a darn good mother. You can see from the objective evidence. You can see and you'll have all the exhibits for you to look at. And you can see by looking at these photographs which you will have in the jury room. You can see the Facebook postings.

7:23You can see what she indicates about, for example, I just randomly grabbed this one. A son of my prince, that they would have, she killed him first, cruelly because she didn't like him. That is repulsive. So she's living her life with Pat, her kids. Having a great time, that summer, life is good. She had to go back to work. I told you, I said watch the evidence. Watch the manipulation. Because that's what this case was built upon originally, and how it developed as the case progressed until it's in front of you. And how does that happen?

8:23In the very beginning, when all the way back to when the first, anyone one call that you had to suffer through was made. You could hear in the voice, back fancy, the heart, what he had obviously experienced. You can see from the evidence that's before you, the injuries that she suffered. You will have in the jury room the exhibits that indicated the extent of the injuries from, I don't have to go through all of them, the extent of the injuries to slitting her throat, to slashing her wrists, throwing herself out a window, let her hold the bedroom for window open,

9:23screen slashed, oh no, the screen wasn't slashed, my bad. That's what she thought. It's called, it delusion. She was in a psychosis when she thought that probably right here sitting here believes that she slashed the screen. She didn't, subjective evidence. And why did we spend almost a week showing you the extent and the severity of that suicide attempt? The reason that we had to do that is because they were arguing that it was a fake suicide, a stinky little cut, no bleeding. She didn't mean to kill herself. She just kind of threw herself out the window, I guess, and slide down the house. Remember that one hanging left of the window, sliding down the house in,

10:26when she screwed up, and she heard herself bad. You know that's not what happened. You know that she made the testimony of Dr. Volkovich, that she made a very, very significant suicide effort, slashing her wrist, slitting her throat, and isn't it interesting when you consider objective evidence. Googling, slitting a throat. Googling, suicide. Googling, drugs. Googling, side effects. Googling, ketamine treatments. Googling, all of these drugs. Googling, the effects of cops' medications. Lurasipan, sertraline, hydroxazine, lurasipan, buspharon, lurasipan, buspharon, chrasidone, flexopines, opidine, mermazine,

11:29chwernivazapen, quidapen, diazapen, diazapen, quidapen, it goes on and on and on and on, on and on, we've got chat and heavy descriptions to see. And obviously she wasn't consuming all of these at the same time, because one thing this kid did was try to do what she was supposed to do. She took the drugs and she was told to take them. She was religious in her obligations to take care of her health. She went to Dr. Tufts when she was a young lady, living in a house with a husband, inner babies, respected nurse, wife, friend, mother, should have kept drinking her. That was a big deal, wasn't it, remember that? We're just going to assassinate this young lady in every which way we can.

12:32Remember that evidence? I was concerned she was drinking by drinks a day. She was worried about you, her, the evidence, the evidence of 2019. They're talking about. She wasn't drinking while she had her kids. She wasn't drinking while she was breastfeeding. She would have a couple of beers with her friends. That's bad, put that over in the bad pile right here. We spent all that time showing through Dr. Lava Sad's testimony that this was a legitimate dreadful, horrific suicide attempt. You think about this beautiful young girl throwing herself out a window. That's a corner. I challenge you to tell this jury why we spent a week showing that she committed suicide. As your witness, the jury said their witnesses,

13:37serious suicide attempt. Remember that? Try to kill yourself. So another back off of that, Mill agree? This is serious suicide attempt. That's where I say, watch the evidence. Watch the manipulation. Remember the argument with the bands. She took the bands out of the bag, put gloves on her, talks to Dr. Lava Sad on the Zoom, and then she went out of the bag. The movement of the bands and Lava Sad says, we just wrapped. It went knotted because you've got to get Lindsay tightening the band. You've got to hold it for a minute.

14:40You've got to hold it for two minutes, three minutes, four minutes. That's why she needed the bands, not knotted. And then she said, it's like this. And they spring open. Remember that? Dr. Lava Sad said, yeah, so you did. And she walked away like at the glove-worn fit moment. Quite a number two. What a Patrick Clancy testified to. You heard his testimony. He indicated clearly unequivocally. They were knotted around the next, those children. To the point where he had to struggle. And it's your memory, not mine. If I say something, you don't recall, forget it. It's what you remember the evidence to be. But clearly, I would suggest,

15:41he struggled to get it off of Dyson's open head. And a police officer saw through the window. This is horrific stuff. But it's objective. And it shows the manipulation. This government, this prosecution is a mess. They would take their evidence and argue to you that she did not tie a knot and walk away. Because as Dr. Lava Sad said, you're talking about four, five seconds. So somebody passes out. They're going to have the four minutes. And that's not what the evidence shows, is it? So, as we move on, Lindsey's in the hospital. And this whole thing about the conversation is, she's talking to people and the kids are in the basement. Her throat was crushed.

16:41You heard the name one one, too. You drive the inference, whether or not, there's a conversation about where the children are. You're going to kill myself, the kids are in the basement. All that, you determine whether or not that was something that could be desired. And the police investigation, because as Dyson indicates, you know, there are two things here. Number one proof, you're on the reasonable doubt, that she's guilty. And number two proof beyond the reasonable doubt, that she was not suffering from a disease or a defect, as is on her instructor view, at the time of these killings. Those are the two things they have to prove. And when the police charge somebody with a criminal offense, they have an obligation to investigate. And at the end of the day, when you're talking about, well, we've got the charges of before the court. You can sit there in the court. You can feel proud of yourself. You do a bit of investigation. You even know what this, you'll see the photograph of the cop in the powder.

17:42What is it? What is, they don't even analyze. Did they take pictures? Did they analyze, did they test the blood? Did they, wow, see the investigation? Well, that's okay, because she was guilty. And they put her in the hospital. And she's the evil woman killed three innocent kids. And they're going to stand there while she's chained to the bed. Parallelized, you heard testimony from Dr. Zazel, the more little fluffy cuffs that were secure and heard of the bed. They were handcuffs, not the medical treatment. Medical treatment would be, you know, restraints. So you don't do whatever, pull lines out and things. What's happen about when the big men were in there, with the guns and the badges and the sitting outside the door, and they're going to make sure that Lindsey Clancy Parallelized chained to the bed, doesn't get up and run away from the hospital, I guess. And they just have to suffer their way through,

18:44whom I guess I work. I don't know, I work, you know, as I had another shift, I had to work that night. This is the treatment. And what's important about that is what kind of treatment this young lady get from the healthcare providers. Remember, Meg Collins, she came in this court, you might remember, tall woman, short line here, squared away, unbelievable. Unbelievable. She was not only a nurse taken care of her in the hospital. She advocated for her. She stood up for her patient. She protected her. During the pandemic, you know that Meg Collins was in that emergency room when half of us were hiding at home behind computers, hoping that we're not going to die in a week,

19:45drinking that shardney at 11 o'clock in the morning. Meg Collins was in a hospital treating people and advocating for them. That's an example of what nursing is all about. Not having attitude. Not treating somebody like they are to be disdained. And what's even worse? She comes out of a coma. She is intubated. She has had major, major surgery. She has broken, crushed, sprained vertebrae, rib, thyroid, massive, not my words, medical records, massive. Testimony, blood transfusion for the blood loss. And when someone with great evidence comes out of surgery, they are delusional. And you have had anesthesia.

20:47You have had a, you think about having a tooth pull. Think about the trauma that somebody has when they're in a hospital bed laying there paralyzed, unable to feel the lower half of their body, but able to feel with the meds, the pain medication, and everything else, the damage to the spine, and then the hospital has a medi. One of the other doctors, I think it was Dr. Shaq, Indian woman, wicked, impressive. She was amazing. She had the facts. She was able to tell you exactly what she observed. He was able to tell you what they were doing to treat Lindsey. She treated her like a human being. She was a damn good doctor. Came in here and told you all of her observations about her and told you, one of the things that ultimately that they were concerned about is they had to have this big, climp, graduation about, we're going to take her off the,

21:49what is it, the health care process. They had to have lawyers. They had to have people there. They had to have her standing documents. They had to determine whether or not she was going to be signing something to have her parents take over because Pat was not going to be responsible for her care lawyers. Cops, handcuffs, do I need a lawyer? Write that down. You're out there somewhere. Write that down. Why, she wanted a lawyer. That's a bad thing. Must be guilty. Let's put that in the guilty pile. That's why she said that in a delirious state, dealing with all of these people about that issue. But what's even more than the faries, as you think about it, as I said, you're right on the ball because of the manipulation. Paul Zazel, a big deal. I'm friends with the guy.

22:49You heard evidence that I called him. I was with Pat a night or two after this incident in the bedroom with all the blood. I was with Pat picking evidence that the police didn't even see in their thorough investigation. And I was able, as you know now, certainly, to grab this. Why wouldn't the police have grabbed this? They're all empty. You can see when they were prescribed. You can see what they are. You can see what she took. We read the testimony. It's tough to take a handful of pills. They were crushed. Oh, should they were crushed. Where's the residue? Where's the crusher? Where's anything? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Great investigation, guys. So you have a situation where they leave this behind.

23:52They don't even look at one. One of them, and again, you're on memory normally. One of them testifies, well, they might have looked at it and saw it and just didn't seize it. Seriously, they're going to end up in the kitchen. They seized every pill bottle that was in the cabinet, along with the books. And speaking of books, one of the things that they found, smoking gun, good moms have scary thoughts. Hallelujah. Put that in the guilty pile. We're going to put this in a plastic bag. So they know that this young lady had scary thoughts. Turns out that you'll want to give it to her. So you have this evidence. You have evidence of sleep aids. You have evidence in the bag. As I obviously, this stuff was just thrown in there.

24:54It wasn't in the bag when I started to set this thing here and it seized it. And we held it for three and a half years. Anybody care about it? No. You've had evidence that police know that I had it. They could have it. They could look at it. They could analyze it. Do whatever they want to get. They didn't have to. Just here. You've had evidence. This is a little wish-jagged that they bought on their honeymoon in Hawaii many years prior to even having kids. And when you look inside it, you see that there's all sorts of little folded up pieces of paper. Some of them had dated some of them. They go all the way back to me in 2017, 2018, 2020. And they reference her wishes to have healthy kids, her wishes, her kids to be successful, her wishes, to have a good birth.

25:55The second time around, hoping for a good birth. Wearing about the child with the, with the, uh, like the cat, they rubbed it, thingy. This woman lived for her kids until she had the pleasure running into doctor of her two months experience. And after she ran into Dr. Tufts, it was not a wonderful life anymore. And what did Dr. Tufts do? And everybody laughs at me. I said the television. Okay, I know it's a telemedical thing on your telephone or on a Zoom. Take more pills. You have the medical records. You've heard the testimony. You know her concerns. You know her fears. Does this seem like a young lady that didn't care and wanted to school more drugs off somebody?

26:57That's another pulse of allegation. I think the evidence is pretty clear. There's no basis for that at all. She was scared. September. Until October. 22. Young, vibrant, had working. You've heard all this. Not my words. Witnesses words. Holding goals for herself. Had working nurse. Had working mother. Would take the kids to the Kingsbury Club. That's another thing. Sounds pretty snooty, doesn't it? Oh, they're at the Kingsbury Club. It's a swim and pool. And a place where you can exercise. You can exercise the manipulation. Because now you've got a situation where you've got manipulation with the Kingsbury Club. You've got manipulation with these other items here. And you've also got manipulation of. All eyes up. Told Lindsey.

27:57What to say. Say that you're hearing voices. Think about how ugly that is. Because you know. Beyond a reasonable doubt. Even though we don't have any proof. You have no burden. You heard from Sheila. Remember Sheila? The woman that's the, you know, the Reverend or whatever. She's the chaplain at the Friggin and Woman's Hospital. She didn't know Lindsey from anybody. That night when she came in and all broken up. And she told you. Continue. The air when Lindsey came out of. And she was extubated. She was there when Lindsey was going through her treatments. She was there for eight days before Paul Zyzel even knew Lindsey existed. But they would be in here telling you that Lindsey saw the psychologist because the lawyer went and got the psychologist to go and speak to her.

29:00And then you have these guys here. The cops. They have meetings. Talking about it. You're talking about it. Must have been the shrink. Must have been the psychologist. Must have been Zyzel. He's the guy that told her what to say. And he did not. How can you. Ruin a man's reputation. With the career that he has had and still has thankfully. To put him in a position where he tells a broken young woman who is vilified by a society for killing her three children. That he goes in the hospital and tells her to say she heard voices. Disgusting. So now you know that she told Sheila. First. That she heard voices. Command hallucinations. She didn't say command.

30:00I heard voices. It was a male voice. Told me. You had these other guys that came in. The government's rebuttal witnesses. Very, very impressive. Very, very impressive. The first two. Mac. Put him aside. You've got the other doctor as well. So Mac is. Why he was freaked out when I asked him really staying. The other guy looked at me like, I was a fucking writer. I asked where he stayed. Whatever. Point this. They don't see her. For years. Years. And why? The other guy, he called Brun. I think it was called. He had to wait until they put the last name. I forget. They had to process his payment from the DA's office through the school. Who can? Why? Why? Why would you wait? Why would you go with another guy? Why would you take this young lady and have her in a room and question her one right after the other?

31:04Wouldn't you like to sit there and be questioned by Dr. Mac? Boy, that would be an experience. A three hour. It's boring. Why would you go with another guy? Why would you take this young lady and have her in a room and question her one right after the other? Boy, that would be an experience. A three hour. It's boring. And the other guy is going to pet the his questions at her as well between that period. And the next day, she can take tests. And then go back at it again with Mac and with Halvren. And she was cooperative. She was pleasant. She was friendly. She answered the questions and she owned what she did. She never ran from anything. She's gone through evaluation after evaluation after evaluation. Recorded. You'll have the video to look at as they're questioning her as she's sitting there in her wheelchair hour after hour after hour three years after this incident.

32:09But that's okay. They're busy. Paul Zazell was there literally in Brigham and Womans because I called them because I was asked to represent this young lady, the great evidence. I saw her in the hospital. I saw her laying in the bed broken. I saw her laying in the bed practically dead. I reached out to Dr. Zazell. And I asked them, please. And you talked to this woman. Concerned as she testified for her mental well-being. What kind of demons? What kind of horror was in her mind? As she lay there paralyzed and hurt her and medicated, swollen, tools, pops, chains. He went and talked to her. Big deal. I asked them to go. You judged the credibility of a person. Did Paul Zazell have the ring of truth when he told you that he's there, a humane feeling to try to help this young lady?

33:19And he's been five births side for three and a half years. Same thing with Sheila. Why would Sheila, for all this time, visit with Lindsay as she testified at the Tootsbury Hospital. She's not going to pay. She's not a hired guy. She's not somebody that's coming in to say something at my request. She loves Lindsay. He's a good kid. He's a beautiful soul. So you have Zazell that has been with her all that time. You've got Sheila, who's been with her all that time. That her mom and dad and her mother and dad come up and they stay and visit with her. And that they sit with her. And God forbid they actually sometimes had dinner. Remember that? They get the Tootsbury records. Boy, there's a good school. Let's go through the Tootsbury records and see what she's doing on the anniversary of the deaths.

34:21How about on the birth days? Can you see them sitting there going through the medical records? Okay. Doctor. What did she do then? She let herself down the hallway. Met with her parents laughed. Had dinner. Watch TV. Talked on the telephone. Go ahead, the bed. She's not curled up in the fetal position, wailing, self-flagulating, constantly. The three and a half years, she's acting like a human being trying to exist. But they go through the records and they want to get those dates and use them against her manipulation. And then you consider, with three weeks away from the trial. The guy yesterday, just looking up to the heavens while he's testifying. Caesar tells you that he wanted to establish a rapport. Can you imagine? You know that you're three weeks away from your murder trial.

35:23And you know that this is Doctor No. 3, who's been hired by the government to come in and evaluate you and testify against you. He's going to establish a rapport. There is no rapport, but yet he was cooperative, she was friendly, interestingly enough. Just like the treating doctors. Don't talk to each other. They don't communicate with each other. They don't have access to medical records. She signs the hippo forms. They don't know what her records are, but they know for sure what Dr. Resnick had in his report. They know for sure what Dr. Zazel had in his report. They know for sure what makes Spinelli had her report. And they incorporate that into their report. But then you have the MMPI and the other psychological cases. That were administered to her on the second day of the Mac,

36:25child-born team interviewing interrogating, questioning her. She passes one MMPI. Testimonies present. She answered the MMPI, honestly. And they're pertaining to state of mind. They're pertaining to questions about what occurred. They're questioning this young lady as to what her state of mind was then in the middle and now. And she didn't lie. She didn't malinga. She didn't exaggerate and mournful. If anything, she minimizes. But she certainly was off the track on the suicide scale. And then you have testimony from Dr. Resnick. I can say Zazel, Dr. Cardin. And they were paid for their testimony. Rob Payne, like I said, not the jury so much, but the judge itself, Chrissy, Edward, we may be big as Payne.

37:28These doctors came in and testified. No, Resnick. The man is something out of a scary movie. He has the world record of investigating, examining and treating people in psychosis that killed their children. Go ahead, say. He has a world-renowned record for checking figures to see if a person is malingering. Their doctor agreed that his adipance on voices is a leading adipal with research in the world. Their doctor agreed that he, Bill Resnick, is an expert. I'm a lingering. You heard him testified by Zom because he had surgery. And he showed up by Zom.

38:28And testified that, again, four months after this incident, he met with Lindsey, evaluated Lindsey, compared, looked at all the records just like all the rest of them. Everyone says, look at all the records, the police reports, grand jury, and everything else. He indicates clearly in his opinion that she was in a state of psychosis at the time of this death, times three. Has any of the government doctors rebutted that? One of them, however, said it's possible either way. That's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The other one, Mac, you can accept his testimony if you wish, but I suggest that you probably won't. And then you left with the doctor yesterday who didn't even know what killing during the course of the psychosis wasn't when I was questioning him about it. He agreed and I said, don't just agree with me.

39:28Just agree with me because I said that and he basically said, yeah, kind of expert testimony is this. It's a mess. But the government uses them to try to rebut, a man like Phil Resnick, who tells you that she was suffering from a horrific mental disease and defect at the time, the killing of her beautiful children. Why the how? In the fact that under the law, as his honor has given you, she's not criminally responsible. And the burden is on them right here. Prove to you that at the time of the killing, as Dr. Resnick says, that she was suffering from a disease of defect. As Dr. Zayn Zell said, that she was suffering from a disease of defect. And Dr. Khandi said she was suffering from a disease of defect and Khandi took you down the road of all of these medications as a psychopharmacologist as a psyched doctor that specializes in prescription medications.

40:33And you got the evidence. So you're able to look at that and determine what the side effects are, what she was complaining of and look at her records. I mean, they have really turned her inside out. I mean, they've got every single text, every single email, every single picture, everything that she did in college. That's another thing. She lied, according to the guy who got the best of it. She lied to her to Pat about being on a pro's side. They were dating for three months. She's living in Boston. She meets this kid. She thinks that she might like them. And they're dating. Oh, excuse me. Before you go out with me, let me tell you that about a year ago when I was studying for my exams, because I'm nervous about packing in public by Governor Prozac. Seriously. That's what the government is arguing in this case. You're going to have this journal, which talks about her being, this is how controlling she does manipulation.

41:33In the opening statement, you may recall that the district attorney said that she was a hard, charging, manipulating woman that was controlling. And everything in their life was controlled. And she ran it to the water, to the carrots, to the beets. You look in this book. And as you might recall, Ms. Rossi testified. When asked, did you feel that she was being controlling of you? Because she says, for example, Monday, 1024, Kellyn, put down her nap. Hopefully, will nap for two hours. If you wake shortly, let him resettle himself, bottle when he wakes up. Then it goes on and on. Make salad. Romaine lettuce. He likes peppers. Broccoli. Cut the sweet potatoes and chunks. Thank you. Another good score. You look at her journals that she took.

42:34You'll see, as you go along in the dates that she's recording in these journals, she's talking about the drugs that she was prescribed. And look at the first page. Look at how detailed dates, how she felt. 10 milligrams pro-Zach. And it goes on like that. It goes on and through November into December. December. December 9th, 10th, 11th. Horrible and trusive thoughts. Horrible thoughts in the AM. Horrible thoughts. Horrible thoughts. No motivation. And then finally, horrible thoughts. No motivation. Deeply depressed. Then that's around the time she went to women in an infant's hospital, right? Looking to help. Look at this. As she runs into January,

43:37there's nothing other than little chicken scratches, because her mind was gone. In January, as she's on these drugs, and she's suffering from what you've heard as post-partum depression, that can lead to post-partum psychosis. And you have these men coming in here that don't even know psychosis from schizophrenia as experts, telling you that if a woman doesn't have these symptoms like it's a disease, a symptoms of post-partum depression within four weeks, that's it. Lights out. You're not a person that can be considered. You're not a real person. The purpose is a post-partum depression. End or post-partum psychosis. Well, I suggest that these were them. I suggest that second guys run. And the third, well, actually, I didn't know. It's your memory. If the German Mac even knew, I think he said four weeks.

44:37It can go up to a year, a longer. But we don't really know, because you heard the evidence. There's no evidence. There's nothing in the DSM, but that's the Bible. Right, for bed, you should go to Europe. You should look at the World Health Organization records. You should look at the way they treat pregnant women that have problems with their children. No, with the most advanced country in the world. But we still have doctors that come in and call it on a murder trial and talk about four weeks cut off. And something that they don't even know exists. They've never treated it. They've never written about it. You have terrorism experts. You have an expert that comes in and talks about his focus and his interests, and his about juveniles and drugs. And like I said, kids that like to drink and smoke weed. Those are the experts quote-unquote. To support their burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Lindsey was not suffering from a disease or defect at the time, she killed her children.

45:40Love him of this. October. This is not an evidence. It's my credit identification to being myself. But basically, it shows clearly and unequivocally the depths of despair that this young kid was in trying to raise three kids, trying to be a wife, ready to go back to work. Did anyone say that she was just lazy and just didn't want to go back to work? Manipulation. They're arguing. She didn't want to go back to work. She didn't want to go back to work because she didn't want to leave a kid's, especially Karen, because she loved her children her life. Manipulation. And when you consider the journals, you know, watch the movie, the shining with Jack Nicholson. Remember the scene when he's sitting there in a state of complete psychosis and he's writing a book and he's typing. And the wife finds the book and opens it up and looks at it and says, all work in no play makes Jack a doll boy.

46:41All work in no play makes Jack a doll boy, repeated after repeated after repeated. And he says, do you like it? Look at the records of her googling drugs. You look at how many times, how many hours of the night in the afternoon she's looking this stuff up in between taking care of the family, in between all of the stuff that was going on with visiting doctors, seeing doctors, going to Rhode Island, being told, no, we can't help you. Calling the hook suicide hotline. We can't help you. Calling another suicide hotline. We can't help you. My God. What does she have to do? She was reaching out for help and she was not getting it. She turns herself in to McLean Hospital. You saw the doctor, nice one. She says the fact she didn't know. I suggest you she didn't know having anything. Psychosis involving a young lady like her going through what she was going through.

47:41The government bears the burden of proof. The under reasonable doubt. They bring, for example, Ian Wiffen. The guy you might remember him was the guy that I guess he developed, helped develop, um, celebrate. What you can't, when you look at the records. You don't measure on an apple watch. Well, I shouldn't say apple watch because we know that they didn't have an apple watch, but on a cell phone. You don't measure going down the stairs. You measure a stair climbing, right? That's what the testimony was. And there were three stairs that were climbed. Okay. The last record is 538. At 538 p.m., we went through that on cross. What happens to the phone? It was on the bed.

48:41It was dropped on the bed and it left the effort. 20 minutes. She could have been anywhere in the house during all that period of time, right? You've got a compressed period of time. The Patrick leaves to go to the restaurant to pick up the CV. You heard the guy yesterday say, and then she sent them off to go to CVS. It's on the way. She didn't want him out of the house long. She asked him to press. She wanted him home to help with the bathing, to help with the kids, to help putting them to bed. How long is he going to be gone? She googles it. Is that something that is so nefarious? You think that that goes right along. We're in with the book above. Good mother's having bad thoughts. My God, she actually googled the timeframe that Patrick would take to go to 3D and pick up the phone and then le- So I guess the government is suggesting she's not in a psychosis. So she's googling Miralax because the doctor earlier that day told her that the baby needed Miralax.

49:48Why would she do that? Because remember the government's opening when they told you she wasn't suffering from the psychosis. She was a woman that didn't want to live a life anymore. She was happy being a mother. Didn't want to live that life. So she's going to kill her kids. And hopefully throw herself out the window and not paralyze herself. And then she could run off into the sunset, I guess. That's what the ethereal was. Along with the fact that it wasn't a real good suicide, it was fake. Well now we know. Don't we? The mess that this young lady was in. In her brain, my brain is being damaged. I will never be better. That's the evidence. That's the evidence that you have in this case. Bird and a proof is on them to prove to you that at the time that she killed these three beautiful kids that she just wanted to move on with her life. And I suggest to you just as there's no chicken nugget residue.

50:48And when you look at those photographs, there's a slice of a cucumber. There's a slice of a carrot. There's no chicken nuggets in that bowl. Patrick wouldn't know what the kids were eating. She was the one that would cook the adenine. She was in the refrigerator. But the guy yesterday is like, oh no. Patrick said the child was eating the chicken nuggets in the bowl. No. She was getting food out of the two kids, not the little baby. Two kids with adenine. There's no evidence that she's wondering. And finally, remember there was a big deal about whether or not the voices within the head or whether or not they're outside of the head. Dr. Resnick's article with the largest research on voices, malingering in the world indicates that 38% of almost a thousand people that were examined

51:50and reported voices from inside their head. And it stops. You're going to buy that guy yesterday? He has no one he's talking about. This young lady is not guilty of the killing of her children because she was suffering from a disease and defect as his owner instructed you. And they're not going to be able to prove otherwise. And it's their brain, not as. Thank you. Hey, Cumble. Over the years, I've met people whose lives were changed forever in a single moment in my new podcast before and after. I explore what happens after that decisive moment, personal, powerful conversations with Colin Kaepernick, Jeremy Renner, Gabby Giffords and others.

52:57Join me wherever you get your podcasts. Before and after with Lester Hold premieres Monday, September 14th, follow now to listen completely free or subscribe to Dateline Premium to unlock new episodes early. There's no dispute that Lindsey Clancy was suffering from mental illness and that she tried to kill herself. There's no dispute about that. All of the evidence that you've heard, even the experts that the Commonwealth put before you say that she was suffering from mental illness and she tried to kill herself. That's not the issue in this trial. The issue is whether at the time she killed Korra Dawson in the county. She knew the difference between right and wrong and whether she could conform her behavior to the requirements of the law.

54:03This case is not about our mental system or how it treats women or what's in the DSM 5 and what's not. That's a distraction to get you angry and passionate about an important issue but an issue that's not on trial here. What's on trial here, what the issue is here, is what Lindsey Clancy did the night of January 24th, 2023 and what her mental state was at the time. You can use her psychological history and records, the treatment records to look at both before and after she killed the kids to look at how she got to that point, what her thought process was, what her motivation was. It's not the system or the DSM or any of that that caused her to strangle her kids. In fact, she had more access to treatment and care and support than a lot of people do. She had health insurance that covered multiple doctors, multiple specialty programs, treatment at South Shore at Mass General, her stay at McLean.

55:11She had prescription coverage to cover the different trials she went through. She had supported home. She had 18 weeks of maternity leave with the opportunity to extend that as much as she needed, which is excellent, which is what all women should have, but she had that. She had support from both sides of her family, hers and Patrick's. The two older kids, Cory and Dawson, were in preschool three and a half days a week. And she had the nanny, Elaine, who helped with, with Calend in three mornings a week. And she also helped her with housework and with food prep. This wasn't a woman suffering from a lack of care, a lack of resources. She had an abundance of health and abundance of care. She had all of that and more. And this doesn't mean that she wasn't struggling, that she wasn't dealing with mental health issues.

56:12She was. She had depression. And whether that's from bipolar or being a depressive disorder or a postpartum depression, it all boils down to she was depressed. And she was trying to deal with that, trying to get help for that. But it wasn't the fault of the providers that she was struggling with this or that she wasn't getting better. They were doing the best they could. You have the record. You heard the testimony. They were doing the best they could with the information she provided them. And that wasn't always accurate information. That wasn't always the full picture. And they were doing the best they could with her level of cooperation and compliance with the plan. Take her medications. You know from the records and from the pill bottles of what she was prescribed and how she was supposed to take those medications. And you know from the pill bottles what she actually took.

57:14And sometimes those two things didn't align with what she told her providers, what she told Patrick, what she told her mother. You take the Zola for example. The prescription was for 125 milligram pill a day for seven days. And then to go 50 million days after seven days. She told Dr. Tufts that she took the pills as prescribed for seven days, went up on the A to 50 million. And that's when she had the insomnia and the other side effects and symptoms. She told Patrick that she took the pills for seven days and they had no effect. So she called Dr. Tufts who then told her to increase the dose. Well you know she told Patrick is not accurate because the pill bottle says take it for a week and then increase it. That was the plan for the beginning. That wasn't the result of a phone call to Dr. Tufts. And you know what she told Dr. Tufts is an accurate either because only seven pills were taken from the bottle.

58:16So that leaves you to either she took the medication as prescribed one pill a day for seven days and then didn't increase it. And that doesn't mean that's what caused the you know the side effects in the insomnia or what she did was not take it as prescribed. She didn't do it seven days and ease into it and then increase it. She either missed a dose or increased it early before she was supposed to. Either scenario is not good. She knows as a nurse the importance of following the instructions of your medications. She knows how important it is to follow the plan and do what's on the bottle and do what your provider tells you. And to give that accurate information to your provider. She didn't say I went up a dose went up to 52 early. Maybe they could have adjusted that and tried the 25 milligram for longer and easter into it. But no she told her that she did what she was told and then went up and had these problems.

59:18So you can see that in a lot of the medication she has you have the pill bottles that were turned in by Patrick and a lot of them don't even have many pills missing from the bottles. Some of them have not abuse fire prescription the first one is only two pills missing the second prescription no pills missing the limic dole she never took those pills at all until the night she tried to kill herself. So there's a lack of compliance there a lack of of of follow the lack of communication with her providers about what was happening with her and how she was taking the medications and defense wants you to believe that this is a woman who's begging for help and willing to do anything and everything her providers tell her to do to get better. And she was asking for help she was she wanted help she wanted to get better. And she wanted to get better on her own terms doing things for when the way she thought she should do them. And as a nurse she knew that's not the right way to approach it.

1:00:18She knew that an accurate medical history accurate information about your side effects and symptoms which your thoughts are that's important for your providers to know and she didn't do it. And she seems to have the reason that she's not necessarily fully compliant. She has this desire to be herself again. She just wants to go back to who she was and she wants it now and she doesn't want any side effects she just wants to be herself again and wants it now and that's understandable. To want to get that magic pill that will fix you immediately and you can go back to being yourself. But she knew that's not how it worked. And you know that's what she was thinking because in the searches on her phone she's searching for things like which any depressant works the fastest. How fast does well buterin work and she's searching all of these different medications for the side effects and symptoms. Some of them that she never even discusses with her doctors.

1:01:20And you know again it's relatable that she wants to get back to where she was but she had discussions with her providers about how these medications work and that it takes time for them to get into your system that takes time for them to work. She even texted her mother about that about how she knew that she had to be patient that it took weeks or the amateur for example to get into her system and worked. She knew all of this and she just she couldn't be patient she couldn't wait she wanted faster. She even told Dr. Tufts it's a note in the records that she knew the problem was that she wasn't focusing on one provider and following one plan. She knew that going from doctor to doctor practice to practice so short at NGH to different programs. Not the best way to deal with the situation she said it in her own words Dr. Tufts. They need to stick with one provider and stick with one plan to see if it works. And she actually turned down help from at least two locations at various points.

1:02:25We talked a lot about the women in infants records and you know you don't have to believe what I say about them or the witnesses say about them or defense. You can look at the records themselves. Page 9 it says right there Patrick was the one who said over medication was the issue. Not the doctors there not the people evaluating her. What they put was depression R.O. rule out adverse medication effects. That means they have to look into it to see if medications have problem. But there's a difference between an adverse effect a symptom or a problem with a medication and being over medicated. Taking too much of a medication or taking too many at one time. There's a difference there. And women in infants never said she was over medicated. What they also don't do is turn her away. It's not that she went there and they said can't help you go away. They told her it's in the records based on the onset of her symptoms. They weren't sure if it was postpartum or parapartum.

1:03:26They saw she had an issue. They wanted to help her. It says there we offered her. They offered her three programs. They offered her the inpatient medical management program. They offered her a partial hospitalization program for general mental health. And they offered her an outpatient program. It shows they put a lot of thought into that into offering her this care. When they gave her three separate options, considering she's a young mom, maybe she doesn't want to be away from home. But we'll give her the option of being in the hospital and getting her medications right. But we'll also give her the option of the partial hospitalization where she can be here during the day and go home to her kids in the evening. And then that third option of being an outpatient and being able to be at home with her kids and come in for appointments. It was very thoughtful of them. It was very well cleaned out to give her these three options. And it's kind of the exact opposite of just turning someone away and saying,

1:04:28go away, we can't help you. And her response, well, I'm going to talk to my provider about it for guidance. And she goes to Dr. Tuffs. She sees Jalada at some point. You look at the record. She never discussed those options with them. She told them that women and infants turned her away and said, she didn't qualify for the program. She didn't discuss those three programs that they offered her. So basically, they give her this offer of help, three different forms of help. And she says, no, doesn't want to do them. And doesn't discuss them with a provider. And also that first time she goes to Mass General to the emergency room, and she says she's going to have to do it for her or a bed at McLean. And she turns it down. She wants help. No one's saying she doesn't want help. But she's making these decisions and doing these things that aren't helping her get help, that are turning away help because she wants to help in a certain way,

1:05:30in a certain time frame. And you know, all during this time, in the summer of 2022, she's interacting with friends, with family, teachers, gym staff, the nanny, people at gymnastics, interacting with them in public spaces and public ways driving her kids around, all throughout that time, able to know the difference between right and wrong, able to conform her behavior to the law, into the requirements of society, and interacting with others and presenting herself as a functioning adult, a functioning mom. You know that she knew the difference between right and wrong during that time, because she had those thoughts at the beginning of December of harming her kids, and she told Patrick and her mother about them. But who she didn't tell is important in very telling. She didn't tell a single provider, not toughs, not gelata,

1:06:31not jettifern, the callister, not dukes, no one at McLean, no one at MGH, no one at Celciore, didn't tell any of them. And why? Because the police might take away her kids. That's a rational thought, that telling mandated reporters that you're having a thought of harming your kids, that they might be taken away for their safety, that's a rational thought. And it also shows she knew it was a bad thought, a wrong thought, because you don't think someone's going to take your kids away, because you're thinking something positive or neutral, it's because it's bad, it's because it's wrong, it's because it's against the law, so she knew that it was wrong. And she was able to conform her behavior to the law, because she didn't tell those providers. She went in and met with them, and talked about what she was experiencing,

1:07:32and talked about her depression, and not only did she not tell them, she lied to them. They asked her, are you having thoughts of harming others? Do you have homicidal ideation? She told toughs, no, she told gelata, no, she told dukes, no, she told good heart, no. Every day at McLean, she said no, at MGH, she said no. So not only is she hiding it, she's lying about it, she's controlling her behavior, she's controlling the presentation, she presents to her providers. Let me get to her being admitted to McLean. You know up to that point, all of the drugs she's taken from September through December, they weren't given at the same time. The most she ever had at one time was two to three medications.

1:08:32And usually if it was three, that third medication was the benederal, or the hydroxyzine that's like benederal, or the out-of-and, or valium as needed for anxiety. The most of the time it was two medications. And the way they did those medications, you heard from Dr. Satoff, a man who's examined thousands of patients with psychosis, who's treated women with postpartum psychosis, who's treated women who have killed their children, that man who apparently has no expertise, you heard from him that the medication trials were reasonable and rational. She tried a medication, it didn't work, or they had side effects, they stopped the medication, they tried something else, they tried a different combination, and unfortunately with mental health, there's a blood test or CAT scan or MRI that you can do that says, well, you have bipolar, or you have schizophrenia, and unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

1:09:33So what the providers have to do is rely on what the patient's telling them, hope that information's accurate, relying on what they're observing about the patient and make a diagnosis, and then based on that diagnosis, have a treatment plan, and every patient reacts differently to medication. One patient could do fine on it, the next not. So they have to do that trial and error process, and it's normal, it's typical, it's reasonable, and that's what they did for her. And even if you believe that the number of different medications you took over that time, or the combination of those medications, affected her negatively, after McLean, they were out of her system. Some of them have been out of her system for months, Zola, she stopped in October, other pills she stopped in November or December, and that last one, the Sericule, that she really had a bad reaction to, is out of her system.

1:10:33The only medication she's on leaving McLean was the Trazodon for sleep, and Valium for anxiety, and that's it when she leaves there. And why does she leave there? She wants to go to Coise Berthie Party, and that's relatable, that's understandable. She wants to be that mom again who can throw her daughter a party and enjoy it. It's completely understandable was she would want to leave, but she also knew she wasn't there. She knew how she was feeling, she knew she was depressed, she knew she needed help, but she wanted to be that mom she was more. And there was nothing McLean could do to keep her there. She said she denied suicidal ideation, she denied homicidal ideation, she said she wasn't hearing voices or seeing anything. They saw the entire time she was there, no signs of psychosis. Every doctor she saw from toughs in September,

1:11:36all the way through toughs, January 23rd, none of them saw any signs of psychosis ever. So they're all wrong, all these different doctors and all these different practices, they're all collectively together wrong. That doesn't make sense. But she sells when she's leaving McLean, no signs of psychosis. And they even give her a test, a task to do, to see if she can manage her mental health outside of the hospital. Make an appointment, pick a doctor, make an appointment. And she does it. She decides on doctor toughs. She makes the follow-up appointment. She gets the documentation and gives it to them. Showing she can manage her mental health. They have to let her go at that point. She's there voluntarily. There's no grounds to keep her if she's not showing she's a danger to herself or others. So they let her go home. And at home, again, all throughout January, she's showing her ability to know right from wrong

1:12:39and to conform her behavior to the requirements of the law and all the activities she does in January. First, there's the birthday party. She's throwing the birthday party. She's monitoring the kids, making sure, you know, everyone's eating, getting cake, singing happy birthday. On the other hand, it's her daughter in the video. She appeared happy and smiling normal. Everyone that interacted with her said, seemed a little tired, but OK. The Museum of Science. You have that video. The Museum of Science in Boston can be crowded and overwhelming on a good day. And she's there with three kids under five with her husband. You see her monitoring them. doing the exhibits showing them what to do with the exhibits. If you watch that video and you didn't know who the Clancy family was, and we asked you, pick out the woman who is depressed,

1:13:40pick out the woman who wants to kill herself, pick out the woman who is about to kill her kids. You couldn't pick her up. She's completely calm. All her behaviors are typical and normal because she's able to control her behavior. She's able to be suicidal and feel those things, but control her behavior, control her thoughts, and present that image to the world. She's able to do it at the Cape Cauter as well, similar scenario. She's able to watch the kids when Patrick goes to brunch. She's able to watch the boys when Patrick and Corgo skiing on the 16th. She's able to interact with the carnies on January 22nd. I gather you both initially said she was quiet, but then they both admitted she was always kind of quiet, but she was able to interact with them, chat with them in the kitchen. Seemed okay. In between January 7th and January 21st,

1:14:40her mother never comes to the house to intervene. Her sister, a licensed social worker, a mandated reporter, never comes to the house to intervene or help, never makes a report, and they're in contact with her every day. Texting with her, calling with her almost every day and never see any signs that they should be concerned or worried or intervene. And you have those text messages between the defendant and her mom. And her mom obviously was very attentive, very caring. Ask very pointed questions. How are you doing? How are you sleeping? How are the medications? Obviously, a very concerned loving mom. How does Lindsay answer? I'm getting a little better. I'm sleeping better. She said the only time her sleep wasn't interrupted is, of course, I had a belly ache or one of the kids was up, but she's doing better every day. She's sleeping better. She's feeling better. She still says I'm not myself.

1:15:41I'm not where I want to be, but she's moving in the right direction. And we have that text from her mom. The day she leaves on the 22nd, headed back home, I'm glad to see you're doing so much better. Now her mom now wants you to believe that she lied to her, that she wasn't doing better and she just just trying to encourage her. But there are so many things you can say to your daughter who's struggling with mental health other than lie to her if you want to encourage her. You've got this. Take it day by day. I'm here for you. We're going to get through this. But she wants you to think she lied to her when she said she was doing better. But you know that wasn't a lie. You know that she was doing better or seemed to be and that her mom said, I'm glad you're doing so much better because Patrick said the same thing. He said she was doing better in January. Every day was better. The 24th was the best day. They had hope

1:16:41because that's what she wanted to show them. The only person during that time that she gave even a little glimpse of maybe she wasn't doing that much better was Dr. Tufts. And she told Dr. Tufts that she was feeling depressed, which is why Dr. Tufts prescribed the 10 milligrams of ammetryphaline a day. Very low dose. And then she told Dr. Tufts again, still not helping. And so Dr. Tufts raised it to the 20 milligrams. Again, a very low dose. A dose a child could take. And that shows how cautious and conservative Dr. Tufts was being in the treatment of this patient who had had those interactions with medications previously. She was being cautious and conservative and acting with care for the patient by slowly increasing the medication. But even with Dr. Tufts, she still denied having a suicide plan,

1:17:42denied wanting to hurt anyone else, denied voices, denied visual hallucinations, showed no signs of psychosis. All the way up to January 23rd, nothing. And if you look at their journal, you look at this journal that Dr. Tufts Council showed you. She is very detailed. Excuse me, about when she took medication, what she took, the amount she took, what the effect was. For months, starting in October, and going all the way up to January, and where it stops, January 18th. Someone who's been so meticulous about everything, all the way up to January 18th, and it just stops. She's decided she's done trying. She's decided that it's too much and she doesn't want to do it anymore.

1:18:44And so she just stops keeping track of the prescriptions. And then we get to January 24th. Everything that happened that day, every person she interacted with, every situation she was in, shows you she knew, the difference between right and wrong, and she could conform her behavior to the law. The doctor's appointment first thing in the morning. She's able to drive there. She's able to interact with medical professionals. She's able to see him absolutely fine in normal. And this is a doctor who's treated the kids since Korra was a baby. This is a pediatrician who's known the family and is known Lindsay for almost five years. A woman who's trained, trained in recognizing the signs of postpartum depression, she told you, she looks for flat-affed, she looks for tyranness, and some other things that she told you, she's on none of that. She was able to control herself and interact with her

1:19:46in a perfectly normal, concerned, mother way. Able to get home from that appointment. She plays with the kids, she takes them outside, she's sending those messages and photos to her mom and to Patrick. Basically saying, look, this is a good day. I'm having a good day. Everything's good. I'm getting better. Here's proof. This is what I'm doing. You start to see the planning at about four o'clock in the afternoon. When this is on her phone, you can see her search for Kizmira Lacks at 4.02. And then a little while later at 4.13, you see her search for takeout from 3.V. And then immediately after she does the apple map search to see how long it takes to get to 3.V. Well, defense wants you to believe that, you know, she was checking that because she didn't want them gone for too long. She wanted them home, she was at distress.

1:20:49If you're in distress, don't send them anywhere. Make food at home, have him cook, get delivery, get door dash, go to the one of the other restaurants that Patrick mentioned that were two minutes down the road. And she didn't have to look up on apple maps to see where this restaurant was. You heard from Patrick, they had been there at least three times in the months before. She had lived in that area for four years. She knew where it was. She knew generally how long it would take to get there. What she needed to know was how long specifically on that night it would take to get there. Because she knew she would have a limited amount of time to do what she wanted to do. And what she had decided to do is to kill the children and then kill herself. And so she needed to know not generally, but exactly how much time will I have. And then obviously sees that that's not enough time.

1:21:49So then she searches CVS. And not only does she search CVS, she calls them. Calls them and ask them if they have kids in their relax and they say no, but they have PDLX and one other medication. And then she asks, is it in stock? Because she needs to know not only what they have, but is it in stock? Because she's adding to this errand that she's sending Patrick out on. And she has to make sure she's not interrupted. She doesn't want that call at 5.33. She wants him to go to CVS and have the medication there and get it and then go on to 3V. So she has time to do what she needs to do. So that's why she's calling to see what they have and make sure it's in stock. It's a level of planning there and thinking and decision-making that Dr. Satath referenced. And then after that, she checks Patrick.

1:22:50You know, it's been a long day, can we do 3V? And he's on board with that. And she's like, okay, check out the menu. Let's get on this. And he asks her what she's getting. She tells him the Mediterranean Power Bowl. He says he's getting the pork on the Voto. 510 PM, she's calling that order in. She's talking to the hostess. She gets the order accurate. She is able to answer questions about how she wants her food. She's able to recall and give Patrick's phone number and his name is the person picking up. And then Patrick's leaving to go get the food. And as he's leaving, the kids are in the living room on the couch eating, the defendants in the doorway near the basement door. And she says to him, oh, basically, oh, by the way, can you go to CVS? Acting like it's this last minute thought. Like, oh, by the way, can you get this? And not something that she has been planning for over an hour.

1:23:50She knew about the PDLX and she knew about 3V and she knew all of that before she even asked him about dinner. But it's like, oh, can you go to CVS on your way and get kids PDLX? And he, of course, is like, sure, I'll get that. And he heads out the door at 515. And you know that's the time he leaves, because he says to her, yeah, just text it to me. And that's such a normal kind of interaction that we have in your common sense of life experience. You're headed out the door to run an errand and someone in your home said, oh, while you're up, you get me X, Y, and Z. And you're like, yeah, sure, just text it to me. Because you don't want to get there and be like, oh, what did they want me to get? It's such a normal interaction, right? Can you get this for me? Sure, text it to me. And he heads out the door and she texts it to him at 515 PM. And then he goes to CVS, even though she's told him what to get and they have it, he still makes that call at 533.

1:24:52She calls him back at 534. And then he heads out to 3V and then comes home. And when he gets home, what's the things on the counter? And it's quiet. It's quiet in a way that a house with three kids under 5 should not be during waking hours. So he calls out to them no answer. He goes to the basement door and opens it and yells down and no answer. And he closes the door. He calls her phone no answer. He goes upstairs and is able to unlock the door and see the blood and see the window open and go down to her. And when he goes down to her, she's no longer actively bleeding. He doesn't have to put pressure on any of her wounds. And he says to her, what did you do? In her responses, I tried to kill myself. And then it's where the kids in the basement. It's not, I heard a voice.

1:25:52I was compelled to do this. I didn't want to do this. Go help the kids. They're hurt. They're in the basement. Go save them. No. It's, I tried to kill myself. The kids are in the basement. And defense wanted to believe that conversation couldn't have happened because of how she sounded on the 91 call. But you heard from the doctors, people can deteriorate over time. When he first gets there, she's able to talk to him. And as that progresses, she's losing the ability to talk. And there's nothing in the medical records about her throat being crushed or a thibrary being crushed. You can look at that. Her thyroid was bruised. Her vertebrae were broken. Her throat wasn't crushed. She had the ability to make sound and to communicate. And if you listen to the 911, he's talking to her. And then he's answering the 911 dispatchers about what she said. So even if we can't hear her clearly, and we can't understand what she was saying, he could.

1:27:01You know from all of the evidence that you have, putting aside the experts. But all the evidence you have in terms of crime scene photos and videos and the witness testimony and on the medical record, you know how she killed them, where she killed them, what time she killed them, and the order that she killed them in. Even without what she told the doctors about the order, that's something you can infer from the evidence. Because you know, in order to bring the kids to the basement and strangle each one of them. And then come upstairs and get a knife and have a phone call and then go upstairs to the second floor. And either take handfuls or pills or crush them, however she did it, take the pills, and then cut herself. And it's not just three cuts, it's the hesitation marks, and then the cuts themselves. And then you know she bled in a couple spots for a little while

1:28:03because you heard from Sherry Kirk, how the pooling in front of the mirror is someone, basically the blood dropping down in someone there for a period of time, and then over closer to the window the same thing. So she's bleeding in front of the mirror for a period of time, over by the window for a period of time. And then she goes out of the window. And whether she dove out or climbed out and slid down, whatever you think that evidence shows from the shingles and everything you've seen, whatever happened she goes out of the window and she's on the ground. And by the time Patrick gets there, she's no longer bleeding. So for all of that to happen in that short amount of time while Patrick's gone, she had to have started by killing the kids immediately after he left. Now defense wants you to believe that it was after the phone call. That after the phone call she heard the voice and killed the children. But there's a few things about that that don't make sense.

1:29:04First is what she told Dr. Satoff. That when she gets the call, she's at the fridge getting chicken nuggets out of the fridge to make dinner. You heard from Patrick, when he's leaving, Dawson is sitting on the couch eating chicken nuggets and green beans out of a bowl. There's the crime scene photo of two bowls on the couch. Yes, the pink one seems to have some vegetables in it, but there's the blue one there as well. And Patrick saw Dawson eating the chicken nuggets and green beans. So why would the defendant make that up? Why would she say she's doing that during the phone call? Because if she's already killed the kids because of a voice and being compelled and it being against her will and she's like a puppet, then she can't get a call and miss it and then call the person back and have a conversation and then hang up. A puppet can't do those things. Those are decisions and choices and actions

1:30:07that she's controlling. So she has to explain away the phone call because her behavior and her ability to have the phone call don't make sense if she's being compelled by a voice, if she's not in control. And you, further on that, you have the phone. You have the flights climbed. There were two flights climbed. You can see you have Ian Wiffin's report. You can see there were two flights climbed. The first ends at 5.33. So it makes sense that she has killed the kids in the basement and she has come up the stairs and at 5.33, she's in the kitchen and she's getting the knife and then Patrick calls. Everything she's done, everything from the research to making sure what they had to telling him to get it to making sure it's unstuck. All of that, and he still calls her, he still interrupts her. And then she gets the knife and she goes upstairs

1:31:12and she's at the top of the stairs by 5.38. So the phone calls from 5.33 to just before 5.35. So if you want to believe that the voices happen, the voice happened after the call and the killing of the kids happened after the call. Between 5.33 and 5.38, she doesn't go down and come back up and come back up and come back up. There's nothing on that phone about that. And there wouldn't be enough time for her to bring those kids down to the basement and strangle each one in three minutes. You heard from the doctors and Dr. Lappesado included. It could take up to 30 seconds for each child to go unconscious. And then strangulation would have to continue for another one to two minutes to cause death. And Dr. Lappesado wanted you to believe that the band could just stay there

1:32:14around their neck by themselves. But you have the bands, their exercise bands. You pull them, they resist, you let go, they snap back. I had to hold them up to show her that circles around someone's neck. And when I let go, they expanded. They don't stay around someone's neck on their own. You have to pull them. And you know they weren't nodded. Patrick never testified that they were nodded. So I'll take this one. He testified that he didn't have a clear memory. But he remembered that they were possibly looped. And I asked him, when you're tying your shoe that first loop before you do a bow. And he said, yeah, kind of like that. So not nodded, not tied. But even his memory wasn't the best. You heard him on that call. And that's why we had to play the call for you because you could hear him. You could hear when he found each kid. And you knew that he had the phone with him when he found each kid.

1:33:14Because his voice never sounded like he was in another room. It always sounded so painfully right there. And so you know he's holding the phone and he's not untying knots. And he wouldn't have had the time to untie knots. In that short amount of time. And then you have the firefighters looking in the window, seeing him with dust in. And he's not untying a knot or unlooping something. They say they see him in an unwinding motion, unwrapping. That's why you had to listen to the 911. To show that she did stand over their limp bodies and strangle them for one to two minutes after they went unconscious. Because those weren't knotted, they weren't tied. They don't just stay there on their own.

1:34:14And even if you wanted to believe that at 5.38, she goes upstairs and puts the phone on the bed. And then she goes down and kills the kids. And she does everything. 5.38 to just after 6 p.m. Because he's making the call to work at 6.09. There was not enough time between 5.38 and just after 6.00 p.m. To kill all three kids, to get the knife, to take the pills, to cut herself, to bleed, to go out of the window, to stop bleeding and pat your to get there. In 20 odd minutes, it's not enough time. So you know she killed those kids as soon as he left. And when she got the call from him, she had already strangled them. And she didn't tell him. She didn't ask for help. She didn't say, oh my God, what have I done? She's a nurse. She didn't go down and try to do CPR and help them. No, she lied.

1:35:16She stayed calm. She presented herself as normal. She had complete control over her behavior and her emotions. She had a normal conversation with him because she didn't want him coming home because she needed to finish her plan. She still had to kill herself. So why did she do it? No, defense would have you believe that a mother who was this good, who loved her kids this much, which we're not denying, would never harm her kids this way unless she was so mentally ill that she was hearing these command voices and had no choice. But you know that's not the world we live in. Dr. Resick told you, most women who killed their children do it in child abuse. Most women who killed their children don't do it

1:36:18because of mental illness. Mother's killed their children and it's horrible and it's awful, but it happens. So why did she specifically do it? She was depressed. She was exhausted. She was done. She didn't want to try anymore. She felt damaged. But those kids, those kids were her protective factor. Those kids were keeping her from ending her misery. And so she had to remove the protective factor. And I'm not saying she was happy about it. I'm saying that it was what she had to do to end her misery. But it was a choice. It was a choice. She could have kept trying. She could have moved down to her mothers. She could have killed herself and left her kids alive.

1:37:18But it was a choice to take them with her. It was a horrible choice. And it's a choice that we don't want to think about that a mother could make because that doesn't make us feel safe or comfortable in this world. But it's a choice she made. She knew it was wrong. Because she sent Patrick out to do it. She could conform her behavior because she waited until he was gone and didn't tell him what was going on in those phone calls. Didn't call 911 for help. Didn't lock herself in a bathroom upon hearing these voice, this voice. She knew it was wrong. She didn't take advantage of this situation. She created this situation, this opportunity to do what she wanted.

1:38:21And when she walked in the hospital, and she knew she was alive and the kids weren't, she knew what she did was wrong. She said she felt horrified. And then while still with a tube in her throat, she's asking, do I have a lawyer? And it's not what the defense said. It was after surgery and she's delirious. Look at the records. She had surgery on the 27th. She's asking if she has a lawyer on the 26th. Do I have a lawyer? Because she knows what she did was wrong. And then we get the justification, the excuse of the voice. And there are a few reasons why the voice doesn't make sense. The first is she immediately obeyed it. Dr. Resnick, their expert, the one who knows everything about postpartum psychosis. He teaches other psychiatrists and psychologists.

1:39:22He writes books and chapters and articles about how this is a huge red flag. If someone immediately obeys a voice, you heard him talk about Andrea Yates about how she heard voices to kill her children for months. And what did she do? She committed herself five times. She tried to kill herself twice to avoid harming her children. It is such that it was all accurate. Let's move on from that. Lindsey Clancy, here's his voice one time and does it? Doesn't try to lock herself in the bathroom, call Patrick Coleman one one, doesn't try to leave. Yeah, leaving little children alone for her 20, 30 minutes, not the greatest option, but it's better than killing them. She doesn't try any tactics to avoid the voice. She just obeys. Another red flag that Resnick was asked about and teaches

1:40:27and writes about is that she only heard the voice one time. She never heard it before and she hasn't heard it since. So how that works? It's a red flag that she's making up the voice. Another one is that what she said, the voice told her isn't consistent. At the hospital, she says that the voice said, you have to kill your children so you can kill yourself because they'll suffer without you. What she tells a lot of the doctors is it says, this is your last chance, you have to kill the kids so you can kill yourself. And then she tells the chaplain, you have to a third version, you have to kill the kids so you can kill yourself because they're in danger. There's these three different versions. Another flag that red flag, it doesn't make sense. That the voice, she's saying the voice says all these different things. And then the third thing, the fourth thing, rather, that doesn't make sense about the voice, is that it's vague in its command.

1:41:29It doesn't tell her how to kill the kids where, with what, nothing. It says kill the kids so you can kill yourself. So she had to choose where, the basement. She had to choose how, strangulation. She had to choose with what, exercise band, choose again, exercise band, choose again, exercise band. She had to choose how to kill herself. Now, if you're being compelled by this voice, and you have no free will whatsoever, you're just doing your body's acting on the voice. Why wouldn't you just kill yourself, the same way you killed the children, you strangled them, you hang yourself? That's acting on compulsion, that's no choice. She tried three different ways. And none of them, similar to what happened to the kids. And I'll take this other quarter now, and explain to you why we got into. The superficiality of the wounds,

1:42:30and why we got into the height of the window, and why we got into how she didn't take enough pills to actually kill herself. We're not saying she didn't want to kill herself. We're talking about that third prom of suicidality, the doctor's staff talked about. Remember, he talked about aloneness and feeling burdensome, but that third category capability. She wanted to kill herself, but her natural instinct to live was fighting against that. So she took pills, but you heard the toxicologists, they were all at therapeutic levels or below, except the ceraquel, which was a little elevated. She cut herself, but you saw the cuts on the meaty pot of her arm horizontally. No arteries, no major blood vessels. Didn't need to be stitched the next day. Then the one on her neck didn't need to be stitched at all. She knew as a nurse. Those weren't going to kill her, but she was trying. And then going out of the window, 12, 13 feet.

1:43:33She landed the wrong way and ended up paralyzed on the frozen ground. But the idea that falling out of a 12 foot window is going to definitely kill you, not necessarily. And so she wanted to. She was trying. She was trying in all these different ways, but she just couldn't get over that third prom. And keepability of actually killing herself. And that goes against it being a voice. Because if she's compelled to do it, if this voice is making her do it, she would just do it. There would be no fight. There would be no struggle. There would be no resistance to dying. But there was. I guess the third one is Dr. Zazal. We've never said that he told the defendant what to say. Not one witness, not one piece of evidence. The only person that said that Dr. Zazal, that we were trying

1:44:33to say Dr. Zazal told her to make up the voice, is defense counsel. He's the only one that asks about it. He's the only one that brought it up. We have never said that in this courtroom. And no witnesses said that that we've asked. She knew what she did was wrong. She could conform her behavior to the law and chose not to. And she didn't expect to have any consequences because she expected to die with her children. And we get to what we have to prove is that our degree is deliberate premeditation and extremity and cruelty. We know it was deliberate premeditation because of the way she killed them and the way they died. And the order also shows irrationality. The order she killed them in. Because Horan Dawson are older.

1:45:34If she had tried to string a one in front of the other, they would have known this is bad. And they would have tried to intervene or run in hide. And she had a very limited time. She didn't have time to try to find a child who ran off in hide. So taking Dawson first and moving him to a separate room, having coerced him with Kalin and having Dawson go in another room, that's rational. That makes sense. That's ordered thinking. And we didn't show you that post that she made about Dawson being a handful and not being compliant to show she was a bad mom. We showed it to you because it proved. She knew that he was a handful. She knew that he was less likely to be compliant to just go along. She knew that he might struggle. And so it made sense rationally to remove him and separate him first in Kalin first. And she brought him into that room, into the office,

1:46:34enclosed the door. And she wrapped that band around his little neck. And she squeezed until he was unconscious. As the blood's pulling in his face and causing those blood vessels to burst, Kalin can pain in panic and confusion. And defense calls Dr. Lapasara to say, no, it wasn't 20 or 30 seconds. It was only five or 10 seconds that until you were unconscious. I'm sorry. How many seconds is it OK for them to have been in pain and panic and confusion? How about it? It wasn't OK for one second for any of those children to feel that. And they all felt it all for up to 30 seconds. And then she continued strangling. They're like baddies for one to two minutes to make sure they were dead. Deliberate pre-minitation.

1:47:37And then extreme atrocity and cruelty. And difference that she showed to their pain, to their struggle, to their suffering, leaving them there on the floor with the bands around their necks completely indifferent. Because she had a plan and she was following it through. Just think of that. The being strangled and the pain and the confusion that they're going through. And it's being done by their mom. Their mom is the one that's hurting them. Their mom is the one that's killing them. That's extreme atrocity and cruelty. She didn't see them in that moment as individual human beings with rights, with dreams, with futures, individually belonging to them. You heard about the three kids.

1:48:37Korra wanted to be a doctor and a mom. Bossin wanted to be a firefighter. Halim never got the chance to dream. Who knows what future he would have dreamed for himself? She killed them. And she left them there on the floor with the bands around their necks. She didn't bring them up to their beds and put them with their favorite stuffed animal and cover them up gently and lovingly, leaving them peacefully there. No. She left them discarded on the basement floor, like broken toys. Because she was done playing the game. You know to a moral certainty. She is guilty.