From Developers to Design: We Talk Investment Strategy with Neyshia Go

0:00Welcome to the Paul Morris Podcast. We have an amazing guest today, Nisha Goh, and I am also joined by my business partner, Josh Spitzin. We're gonna talk about how Nisha has used her day job, essentially, to educate her about real estate and how she transitioned that into making some very interesting purchases. So grateful to be here with you, Nisha. I've had the good fortune of getting to know you one of the sharpest, kind, focused real estate leaders that I know, and I know some pretty powerful people, and we're extremely grateful and excited to learn from you today. So thank you for being here. Well, I'm happy to be here, and I'll do my best to share as many nuggets as I can. So one of the things you sort of, you cut your teeth on is representing developers, and so that's a very unique experience and a very unique viewpoint. How were you able to use that, or did you use that to begin to invest on your own?

1:02So, you know what's interesting is when I started in the business, I thought, oh, to be a developer is like the goal. The irony is, especially through market cycles and conditions, I look at it as a supplement because there's a lot less risk when you just sell the real estate. So I've been very, very selective about the projects that we've done. So, and I'm actively looking for a good investment opportunity that's passive income, but you know, there's different routes of investing to take in real estate. For me, you know, residential feels like home, right? So, that doesn't necessarily have to be single family, but anything that has a residential component, a driver that is people that live there, that feels like something that I can wrap my head around a little bit better. So multi family? Multi family or single family spec, which is what I've invested in. I've not done a single family spec by myself at this point

2:04because they've been larger price points and candidly, I've basically aligned myself with other developed, like the developers I work with, right? And what's nice about that is I already know their proof of concept. I already have a track record. I'm gonna end up selling it for them as well. So, you know, I'm invested in a couple of projects that done a few, they've ranged from four. This one is gonna be a big one. The one that I'm actually fully working right now is going to have an exit of 20 million. And it's pretty cool to be at that stage in my life one day before I turn 36, which is literally tomorrow. Thank you. I look at the date on the consent of what I was like on I've heard this. 22nd. Yeah. So, you know, it's a dream, right? Like I never thought I would be in this position, growing up in Northern California. Like I said, it was very modest background that I'd be investing in playing in this world. Actively on the passive income side, I'm looking for something multifamily to purchase

3:04and some other neighborhoods, probably outside of Los Angeles, I'm gonna be totally honest, but in other parts of California that I'm familiar with. And I'm sort of tying with the idea of next year buying some industrial. But that to me takes, I need to learn a lot more. And again, I think maybe through this podcast if anybody's been watching, they'll understand that I wanna learn something I'm not just gonna blindly invest money. Right. Well, I think that's super important. And one of the few of the things that you mentioned that are key is, you know, if you're going to invest with somebody else. First of all, you started your real estate sales career, you know, talking about what I needed to co-list with somebody they had experience in that particular area. I'm gonna bring my skill set, but I'm gonna lean on them. So similarly, investing, you know, that the track record is very important. Yeah, I mean, look, I will also say though, you have to be very, very careful who you invest with and do JB's with, because I'd say 80% of the time,

4:06maybe 70% of the time those deals go bad, because you have too much, there's too much closeness for all the reasons we were talking about earlier. It's like when you have too much of a friend dynamic, sometimes things get a little nasty. You know, so my husband and I were talking about it because we gut remodeled our first, our we gut remodeled, or we remodeled by gutting our first whole house together. It's not our first house, but it's just, we actually gut remodeled. He thinks there was a much more fun process, I think than I thought it was, because I played designer, because that's one of the other things that has been a big skill set of mine is that, I'm very hands on with the finished selections, slash staging to curate a property, and I think they always look a little bit more designed as a result. So on this one, I actually did all the design finish just thinking it would be relatively easy, but I had no idea what my husband was going to be like as a design client, and he's quite picky.

5:08So I said to him, I said, if we do this again, I mean, for spec it's different. I said, if we ever do this for ourselves again, I was like, I'm hiring a designer, I'm not going to be the one putting together mood boards, in the middle of the night to try to get your approval. But that being said, we probably are going to do a couple of flips. We have a home in Santa Barbara as well, and that market, I think we can really shake some things up there. So. And it's probably also, I just want to the value that you bring to your developer clients from that design standpoint is probably also, I'm guessing you, beyond the ones you invest in, that they're looking for your insight. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's so funny because I look at plans on almost every project that I work on, especially before they get submitted, because I'm able to say at this price point, you need a dirty kitchen, you need a scullery, at this price point, and at this square footage, the scale of these rooms are too small. What's your ceiling height? This kitchen doesn't have enough cabinetry. Where's your pantry? Do you have a coat closet?

6:09It's all those things, right, that you, we have to keep in mind in order to effectuate a good sale. I wanted to get involved because I realized, my job was going to be a hell of a lot easier if they would listen to the input I have. You know, I have a client right now, and he's kind of a strange, they have a strange view outside of one of the bedrooms. And I'm like, okay, rather than like, mask it, why don't we own it, and then just kind of make it like a wellness area, right? Because it's kind of against the side of a hill. I'm like, if you kind of make it cool and zenny, and you put in a Hanokitub, and you put in a sauna and a steam room, all of a sudden it becomes a destination instead of an eye sore. There's just certain things like that, and those are new nuances that I think improve both the asset, but also the ability to sell a property. Also, when I was reviewing the, the, you know, $50 plus million condos in New York, it was amazing how, you know,

7:11the developers got the idea that like, this is the particular high-end oak floor that everyone is looking for. And then by the time you, by the time it, at the end of the day, it's like, even at that price point, these things are looking identical. Like, look, what is going on, you know? And I think you're bringing, bringing a particular flair to it. And this is a great lesson for anybody who is coming out of from the investment side is, you know, and I'll go a little off-path by saying one of the people that we had on the podcast was my chiropractor. And he has, you know, number one, he spots neighborhoods. And number two, he has impeccable and sort of eclectic taste. And he can, whenever he has done his own houses

8:12and then sold them, he's gotten way more than price per square foot than what would easily has gotten way more price per square foot for that particular area. Pensaling that into your deal, I think, is a little risky, but understanding that, you know, you're going, you mentioned bespoke, you know, that you're going to, you're going to put a product out there. What are you competing at, whatever, whatever, whatever price point you're going to land at, whether it's $700,000 or $7 million, what do the $700,000 houses look like? And how is yours going to jump off the shelf? How is the distinguished? I have a lot of little trade secrets, even just in the installation of things that don't cost you any more money, that make a much more meaningful experience for a buyer. Like I have a client who puts, who she puts in a little like a foot niche in the shower before like, what's that for? It's so that you don't have to lift your leg unassisted.

9:13You can shave your, like it's for the wife, right? I mean, I assume it's for the wife. You know, so you, yeah, you can shave, right? Like there's just those little things. Sometimes it's hidden appliance stores. Sometimes it's storage in the garage. Like there's also those nuance things that people do, and they're like, oh, I love that I don't have to do this, and it's such a great idea, because I think subconsciously, it also says to a potential buyer, this person put this much thought into the finishes or the building of this house. So they probably did a really good job, right? Because they care. You know, and I also think that it's really good to be more personal or have some interesting touches. But you do have to, if you're going to build it for mass market, you know, have a generally neutral palette that will appeal mass market, I find that the most success we have is when it is very clean, very untrend, timelessly untrend, in terms of finishes and palette as a whole.

10:16But then there's fun, interesting, unexpected touches. Like the powder bathroom is always the place to play, right? Colors, I mean, my own powder bathroom is dark green, with the most insane green marble and vessel sinks and brass fixtures, it's moody, right? You want to go in there and have a cigarette, basically. You know, but you can play with everything, you can play with those certain elements to make a house feel cool. So somebody walks away and says, okay, we saw 10 houses today, which house did you like? I liked the one with the green bathroom. I liked the one with the two, that crazy closet. I liked that one, you know. It's been super intentional. And always again, putting yourself in their shoes, thinking about who this is gonna, how this is gonna be received by that potential buyer and how are you gonna set yourself apart such that they have an emotional attachment. I also think that if you come from either a world that appreciates high design or you play in it,

11:16like I do, there's ways to inject that into entry-level price points. Absolutely. Like, you know, there's certain finishes, certain stones you can find, there's certain color palettes you can find, gives you that richness. You don't have to do whatever, run of the mill developer is doing in that neighborhood. And the house, I firmly believe, and I've seen lots of people, lots of people do it, is use your own house as an investment vehicle. And so what that means is, you know, instead of, it's the opposite of buying the best house in the best house in the best neighborhood is the cliche, right? But, you know, the best house in a very good neighborhood, there's not much upside to it. So. I'll give you a funny story. I, my husband and I were very contentious over our shower, our primary bathroom shower. I've been working with developers for such a long time that they would even call me and say,

12:17which door lock should I buy? Should it be N-tech or Schläger, whatever for a certain product? Like, that's how granular we can get about value engineering. And I take my husband to the Slavyards to start picking out stones. And this is for our personal house. And he goes, that, I need that. I film, I fall in love with that. It's a Calcutta Machiavecchia. So for anybody who doesn't know what that is, it's probably one of the most expensive stones out there. It's gonna be like a hundred. And I think that's donated to being $170 per square foot. Okay. Is that the Calcutta that has the gold? Yes. Okay. Okay. It's the great and the great and the gold in it. And I had already said, I had looked and looked and looked for our kitchen. And I was trying to find cheaper options, but I said it eventually. I was like, I'm just gonna do the Calcutta Borguini because that to me also says something. But I only needed three slabs. So I had this idea always to do our whole shower in Slav.

13:19The whole thing. So big format slabs, like it's a 10 or 20 million dollar house. I don't live in a 10 or 20 million dollar house, but I live nicely. So my husband's like, I really want this. And I'm like, we cannot spend this much on stone. I mean on the shower. And so I was trying to convince him over and over and over again. Can we go porcelain? Can we go something cheaper? Like just because we're gonna have to do the ceiling, the walls, the floor, everything, right? And he just kept saying it made, but aren't you gonna walk in one day and just know it's fake? And I'm like, I'm not gonna think about that. I'm gonna think that it's a nice shower. He eventually convinced me we spent $100,000 on the shower slab. And I can't help but get in that shower every day and actually feel good because it is so nice. But what I realized was this is a house for us to enjoy. And at the end of the day, we were smart about the choices we made because they were impactful. And I have a feeling, my heart and of hearts,

14:21somebody one day is just gonna knock on our door and say, I'll offer you X. That's how we're gonna end up selling that house. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And to that point, one of the ways to really create highlight, I'll go back to fashion and I have to say it wasn't my idea. But a long time ago, someone said to me, like you can get away with inexpensive this or the inexpensive that but don't go cheap on belt and shoes. You know, right? So you can mix and match but like spend that money on belt and shoes. So it's a couple of going crazy expensive on one particular item that's going to pop especially. You're impacted, you're well-demand. Yeah, it's a lot of money for shower for sure but a shower relative to the full house is a smaller piece of it. So again, another one would be. A kitchen. Yeah, kitchen for sure or just spending, you know, spending if you had a, if you had a certain price level that you were building to, you know,

15:24spending three X, what you would normally do on a front door, for example. So you get the like super cool pivot door. It just makes that difference. And one thing that I did on the house before this one and we did a complete remodel. And so we kept the foundation and whatever. And one of the things that just happened to be there was this, like, it wasn't even a basement. It was like super weird, like, little room down these stairs. And we just, like, I'm almost like, it's so bad that like we might as well, like you could just like fill it in but why, you know, why do that? And what we ended up doing was it was in, it was in a place where it was, there was the sort of downstairs living room and then, you know, living area. And what we did was we put a bookcase up. Oh, yeah, that's cool. Right. We put a bookcase up and then, you know, it became the secret, the secret room. And not to not to be too, not to gender over, over generalize,

16:29but I will tell you, you know, there were aspects of the house that, that generally the wives will focus on. But there wasn't, it was always the guy that came in the house. He's like, wait, the secret room. I don't know what it is about a secret room that like appeals. So I'm in process of putting a secret wine. That's what we get. Vlogs it. Yeah. So I'm doing the same thing. But that's also because I think, I think about a lot of people's needs, my husband's needs. So we actually have a downstairs in that house. And we have a downstairs stairwell. You know, those things are kind of depressing and sad. So I, I had this idea to make a really loud splash. It is from the floor all the way through the ceiling covered in a very loud wallpaper. So as soon as you open that door and turn that light on, and all those fixtures are brass, and everything is like a brass knob and, you know, in there, you're transported. So then when you go downstairs, so the whole thing down there is a man cave because I realized my husband's sports things need to live somewhere.

17:31Otherwise, they were going to start to encroach the rest of our beautiful cream white-paleted house. So we actually painted that whole room blue and we made a speakeasy man cave. Right. And it's like that, again, it's another highlight, you know, she's probably going to fall in love stereotypically. She's, or he can, for whatever reason, what doesn't matter, can fall in love with my crazy closet. But he's going to fall in love, again, stereotypically, right? He's going to fall in love with the sports man cave with a speakeasy door. Right. And there are just those things that every single house in that price point, and it wasn't a low price point. We ended up selling the house at, you know, north of $6 million, but in Santa Monica. So it's an expensive place, expensive area. But you're not going to find a $6 million house in Santa Monica that has the wine cellar behind the secret door. Yeah. It just, it doesn't cost that much more to make a couple of elements

18:32that make that thing totally pop in that area. And that is a great way to enjoy and elevate your living. And I still do it in a way that with some ROI in mind. Of course. And you're enjoying it too. So beyond business piece. That's, you know, and that's. You see in value engineer the rest of it, right? I think then you have that, like we agree on this, right? You have a little bit of extra budget to play for some of the fun things. I think at the end of the day, if you know you're going to build something that every time a friend comes over, you're going to want to show it off. It's going to have some wow factor to somebody who's going to want to buy your house. So I think having a few of those touches is always awesome. And no one no one focuses on, you know, the, the, the third bedroom, you know, or even if it's third bedroom with on sweet, you know, bath, you can't,

19:35that is where I wouldn't go cheap, but that is where you can save money to then throw it into, you know, the, the super calcutta shower in the, in the, we went with a really nice Italian, travertine tile full slab, still integrated shower niche. And we, we did Roman clay and all of our bathrooms. We have wallpaper in that closet in the back of the closet, just because it's cool. I mean, we went, we did, like there is pretty much nothing that we didn't do. But, you know, at the end of the day, it was important to us to make sure that our house felt really cool in the spoke. And I think we have one of the coolest houses in the neighborhood. I love people are willing to pay for value, period. Yeah. And they're also, especially right now, I think COVID did this tool. I mean, this really got amplified during COVID. People are willing to pay a premium for done and like, high styling. I was just underwriting a house actually under the jewel box concept, which is kind of a

20:36more challenging one, which is you take a smaller house in the average size, but you make it super cool, super high style as design. Can you then, you know, elevate the, the comparable price per square foot? The, the, can you raise the ceiling? And there's inherent risk in that. But, you know, if you do it in the right market with the right factors in mind, you can really win on that model. And you have someone that really has a keen design eye like yourself. Yeah. Well, that's, that's one of the, one of the great ways to illustrate the jewel box idea is to, is to flip it. And, and so what I saw on my street in Santa Monica was, you know, things were go, go, go at the time. And so what I saw was, you know, somebody paid top dollar for a tear down. And then what they did was they built as many square feet as they possibly could, as inexpensively

21:38as they could knowing, okay, so maybe I won't get the average price per square foot, but instead of making it a really nice, you know, 3,500 square foot house, I'm going to go for the, I mean, it was literally what, it was literally, overbuilt home depot, 5,000 square feet instead of really nice 3,500. And that's saying nothing bad about home depot, but when you're talking about a luxury market, you have to go beyond that. Yeah. So that's, that's the opposite, you know, and, and I would walk by this house and be like, who eventually is going to buy this house? Because we're still talking about, you know, over a thousand dollars of square foot, who's going to spend six million dollars for this house that looks like it's a track home, you know, and what that developer was doing. I don't know the developer, but, but I know the developer, but I didn't know I wasn't inside of his underwriting, but clearly what his underwriting was, let me get as many square feet as I possibly can for his little money that's going to raise my, and in a certain market,

22:40that, that works, but the flip side is the, is the jewel box, which is like, you know, what we're going to get a buyer that's going to not look at the exact price per square foot, but they're going to walk in and they're going to say, wow, this is absolutely incredible. Yeah. And look, there's less typical developers who will do the jewel box model because there's so much more inherent risk. I think the jewel box model is more for developer clients or people who are like, let's say end users like myself, right? Like I would probably do a jewel box concept over a typical developer because you'll get your number if you can wait. If you have exit strategies, if you don't mind renting it for, you know, in a, through a soft market, if that's how long it takes by the time you're ready for it to wait for the market to appreciate you always getting. But the typical developer is going to want comps and they're going to want to feel like they maximize the value of whatever they buy. Yep. And they're, and they're going to find safety. A developer will generally find safety and like, okay, so we bought it for two million.

23:44We're going to add, you know, we're going to build all the square footage for whatever in the average price per square foot. If we get somewhere close to that, you know, we're going to walk away with a great number. The jewel box thing is a lot harder to underwrite. And I'll, I'll just, I'll just put a, put another point on that is that, you know, I had the opportunity to brainstorm with a billionaire developer who since passed away, Sam Zell, and Sam Zell made his, made his billions by building these, you know, generic homes in the suburbs. And then after he sold his portfolio, I don't know how much time went by, but he, he shifted his whole focus and he said, you know what? Right now I'm investing only in 24 hour cities. And he was investing and buying and building really nice units that were way smaller and, and really nice and walking distance. He had his criteria, he had his buy box, right? And, and he was expecting the, the end product to sell for way more than anything else

24:50it was on the, on the market, not necessarily the total price. Right. Per square foot. Right. Right. So, so he's still, so, you know, if the average, you know, condo there is 1.2 million, Sam Zell might be landing at 1.1 million, but it's half the size. So he's charging a fortune per square foot, but he's delivering something. When somebody walks in, they're like, wow, this is different. And then what they're really doing is they're looking at a buyer is looking at what, what is my, what's my monthly payment? And so the monthly payment to live in one that's, you know, 40% larger, but is so generic as opposed to this one that I love and the monthly payment is exactly the same or maybe even a little less, I'm going to go for the one that's 30% less square footage. Well, I think price per square foot and this is really important is a data point metric. It is not an end all be all by any means because there is a principle called diminishing returns that is very real. Like if you can't find another house that's sold for $10 million, you can't use price per square foot

25:51thinking automatically you're going to get $10 million if the next closest compass six. Right. Like you, there's no proof of concept that anybody will pay that in this market. Sure. Anyone can get lucky, but you know, most very knowledgeable developers are not going to base their sale or their, their purchasing or their investment strategy on luck. Right. And to use the crudest to put into math using the, the, to illustrate Nisha's point in the crudest way, basically, you know, we're looking at it. Nisha and I are looking at a neighborhood and it's selling all day long at $1,000 per square foot. And, and the houses are between five and six thousand square feet. They're getting a thousand dollars all day long. So they're selling it five and six thousand dollars. Nisha and I are like, Hey, well, let's just build a 10,000 square foot house and expect to get 10 million. That's a challenge. Well, and also you have to mind things like your lot, your backyard, how much grass you have yard.

26:52There's a lot of amenities that are outside of just typical square footage that buyers in certain price points want. You know, on the project that we're doing that we're targeting 20 million, we had an option to maximize square footage and build an 80 you. And I said, it's going to completely invade your backyard and it's going to ruin that kind of feeling of having this estate style property with all the privacy. So we opted not to build the 80 you were going to lose out on seven or eight hundred square feet. I also said we need a three car garage with extra high ceilings for lifts. You know, because that's what's going to be important to somebody. So what we're doing is we're technically getting one of the garage bays permitted as an 80 you. But we're going to have it kind of be more open for somebody to be able to customize as they want. Because I just don't think people pay just for square footage alone. They pay for everything else. All the amenities, the space, the feeling that somebody gets the experience and one variable inevitably impacts another.

27:56So you got to look at the holistic whole for dynamic in order to actually value the property and to and to sum up niches advice in this area is to. Get the buyer the the avatars who is going to be the likely buyer and that's build toward them. Yeah, that's three part of investing strategy correct investment strategy in what we're talking about in real estate. And even in sales starts with that in a real question. Who is the buyer? Yep. And when you're the seller people people do not people do not think about that. And the other thing I you know, I'm sure they don't have to right. That's why we're here. Yeah. That's our job. Our job is to be able to tell you these are the three groups. I think the buyer are. And I want you to hear this because usually they know because they are one of those people. And where their neighbor is one of those people and then all of a sudden it makes sense.

28:57It hits home at jives. They get what we're doing here and then they appreciate it. And one of the things the point of you know, the point of the podcast really is to is to give knowledge to people to empower them to do their own thing. And I also have to say that another way to do it is to find someone, you know, let's say that I have this much money to invest and I'm and this is what I'm thinking about doing. Going out and finding a realtor who represents developers in that area. So that realtor knows how to how to underwrite those deals and can give you real, real guidance. Not the realtor that you like the best, not the realtor that sold the most homes in that area. But the realtor who's made a lot of money for developers is going to know how to underwrite those deals. And that's one great way to get into the investment game with extra safety. Yeah. That is such good advice because we're in a soft market depending on the area in Los Angeles.

30:02And I have a handful of clients that I have inherited. I've inherited bad deals. I have inherited bad buys things I never would have sold them. And by the way, I'm pretty upfront about it. I never would have sold this to you. And so I understand we need to get X, but the market is going to deliver you Y. I'm going to try to get you as much as possible. But like, this is a dog, right? Or this, this was, I don't know what you underrode, but you couldn't underwrite that price because that was one comp in a better market and these factors have happened. I have never had a client lose money. They've always made money on anything I've ever sold them. Most of them a lot of money. Like by clients that made on single family spec for sure hundreds of millions of dollars, right? And that is something that I go to bed at night with the most confidence and, and, and relaxation knowing that I don't sell a project that I wouldn't personally invest in. Doesn't mean I'm going to invest in every single one. But if I don't see a nine on view, if I don't feel it and I don't believe in it,

31:05why should I put someone else's money and risk? Prioritability. And I know we have to go to our fire round. I can't help myself with the highlight of a couple of points that Nisha made. And, and one of the things that one of the things that you did in that deal when you said, you know, you're taking a listing, it's, it's, and when you say it's a dog, I'm going to translate that. It is, it, and you correct me if I'm wrong. It's a dog at that price. So everything sells at the right price. Correct. So, so in other words, it could be a magnificent home that would trade in, you know, in within a week at four million dollars. Now you've got, now you've got a five and a half million dollar price tag on it. It's now this, this, this amazing home at four million dollars is now a dog because of, because of the price. But what, but what Nisha did was when she said, if you're, if you're my client or if you're my client,

32:06Nisha is the one that's doing this, you know, when she says, look, I wouldn't have, I would not have sold you this property. She is gone from, from adversary, which I talk about a lot to. So, Josh is saying to me, you know what, hey, I need five and a half million for this house, because I paid this and this is the amount of money I put into it and did I did I did I did, if I don't get five and a half million out, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to hire a realtor that's going to tell me I'm going to get five and a half million. You know, one of the scripts around that, which is, I hate to even use the word script because it's just, it's, it's just, it comes from the heart from Nisha, I can tell, you know, by her saying, look, look, Josh, I would not have sold you this house. Okay, now what I'm doing is I'm getting out of the adversarial position with him. I'm getting on the other side of the table with him and now I'm saying to Josh, hey, that's work together. Yeah. This is all, the buy is already done.

33:08Now, you want to get out of the house because you're going to move to San Francisco or whatever, whatever your reason is you've decided to sell, that's work together to do the best that we can with what we have. And so now I've positioned it instead of like, you're never going to get five and a half million. Now we have an adversarial position. You look, I think it's always important with leading with the most honest truth, which is I want to get the most money possible for you, right? Because 100%. I want that outcome for you because I like positive, happy transactions. But more than that, from a very pragmatic business sense, the more money you make, the more money I make, right? That's another bit of commission for every million dollars more, every, every hundred thousand dollars more. But the reality is the market doesn't care what you thought it was going to be worth or the market doesn't care what you paid if you bought it a different time. Today's market cares how it stacks up to the rest of the inventory and whether or not they see value in

34:10what you're offering, right? That's right. And so for me, that is something really important to communicate with clients. And I think there's a way, obviously, sometimes it's tough to be that direct because it's hard. It's a really painful process to know you're going to lose money on something. And that's a lot of money to lose some time. It's for talking millions of dollars. And it was just the wrong buy. And when I look at what happened, I would say nine times out of ten, they trusted someone who had no business selling them that. They trusted an agent who didn't really know the market, who didn't do enough business, who probably was greedy. I'll tell you one story about development because it's relevant. And it was a very humbling but formative experience. It was in my first year of selling real estate. And I had a development deal under contract for two and a half million. I'm young. That's a pretty decent commission check. And I had told my mentor at the time, I said, look, I'm selling this to these developers. We're under contract. We're going

35:13through DD. And he goes, let me just see it. Let me just see the project. Right. So I said, okay. So we went, pulls me the side later and he goes, I wouldn't sell this to them. I just don't think that you're going to get their exit. Maybe you will, but I really don't think you are. And this was in a market that was really hot. Right. But he's like, I just don't see it. But it's your deal. You do what you want with it. So I slept on it. And the next morning I called after I woke up. I called my client and I said, you know what? I got his opinion and he thinks there's a bit of risk on this deal. And I couldn't in good conscience not tell you that. And they were so appreciative they became long-term clients. But I walked away from a meaningful commission when I needed it. Right. Because I was like a new agent because I chose to do the right thing on behalf of my clients and not sell them a dog.