Forgiving Infidelity Online & How Many Is Too Many? (Why Married Couples Struggle On YouTube)

0:00We're living in the new world. All right, first of all, I just want to say that that color looks absolutely stunning on you. It looks lifeless on you. Thank you so much. We're twinning today. Twins. Totally unintentional in our part, but we welcome you back here to the Royal Hosehold Podcast friends. Thanks for being here once again. Today we were talking about some marriage and fidelity. Believe it or not, controversial topic and subject, quite taboo. But there's been some online chatter this week about exactly that with some people that are far more prominent and well-known than we are online, which I'm okay with. Yeah. And for a variety of reasons, stuff like this being one of them. But there have been a couple of instances of some female wives, some ladies who have been getting a lot of input, let's say, from their individual audiences. And we wanted to discuss that because it goes into just something greater, whether it be any faith, religion, marriage, the interpersonal communication that we have with our audiences.

1:01So let's jump into that discussion with our wasting any time. If I seem a little off today, it's because two of our babies are out of the house and off the property. And our actual baby did not sleep a wink last night. That's true. You woke up inconsolable four times. He's got two top teeth coming in, some allergies going on. It was brutal. It's been a day. It has been a day. But Kaimani Navea are out of here and I'm always very distracted when my babies aren't near to you and I. We'd like the definitely to be under the wings. Yeah, especially with Kaimani because a big difference between a young man, a young teenage boy and a female daughter. Anyway, I'm wasting time. I said, if we were going to do that, let's jump into the conversation. Okay. So this week, I saw that Hannah Neelman, most of you guys know her as ballerina farms. She is probably the most prominent tradwife, which is short for a traditional wife. She is one of the LDS influencers in Utah. So we have seen a lot of LDS tradwife influencers rise up because this whole take back femininity

2:07movement has exploded on Instagram and TikTok and now it's pouring over onto YouTube as well. I'm not seeing any of this. Yeah, probably not fit to you. So essentially, it's this beautiful aesthetic of motherhood and having lots of free-range babies and everything's natural wood colored and there's aprons and there's chickens and there's barefoot babies and overalls with like one strap hanging and there's sourdough. There's all of that. So it's an aesthetic though. Right. This is all a portrayal like everything you see online. I find it, I have mixed opinions on it because I think part of it sets an unrealistic expectation for what motherhood and being a wife looks like, but at the same time, it's wholesome content and it sure beats like the only fan stuff that we're seeing. Yeah, it is what it is. If you like it, so be it. Just not my cup of tea. I think that it's wholesome and it's beautiful, but understand that it's an aesthetic

3:07and that it's performative and then enjoy it for what it is. Right. Yes. Yeah, because nobody's life is perfect. Nobody just silently speaks in a whisper while making sourdough with eight children at their feet. You don't have to notice that. You don't have to notice that. You don't have to notice that. You don't have to notice that. You don't have to notice that. Well, I, yeah, I'll bake bread with children at my feet, but it's like, he's pulling my pants down. Like, grab him. Somebody grab him. My hands are sticky. You know, that's what it sounds like. It doesn't sound like this. Yeah, it's chaos. Yes. Fair to say. And that's okay. It's a beautiful chaos. But it is what it is. That does not make a good aesthetic. Nobody wants to watch that. So how did she step in it this week? And it will, let's delve into the background on her and her husband as well, because that's a part that I actually found interesting. Yeah. I find Hannah Neelman very interesting. The reason they're called ballerina farms is because she was a prima ballerina at New York's Juilliard down school. And she met her husband. I believe they got married 11 or 12 years ago. She met her husband at Juilliard.

4:07But I don't know why he was skulking around Juilliard looking for a ballerina. But essentially smart man. He was very wealthy. His family owns jet blue, the airline. And he asked her out. She said, no, he asked her out again. She wasn't interested. Then he somehow figured out what flight she was on, bought a ticket, made sure that he was sitting right next to her romantic or creepy for sure. Stopper. It's a little weird. I would think so as a young girl. No judgment. They were the same age. So it's not, I'd be a little weirded out, but he really wanted to meet Hannah. He really wanted to date Hannah. She took it as, okay, this guy is really serious about it. I'll give him a first date. They hit it off. They got married. Since then, they have had eight children in 11 years until this week. And they just announced maybe five or six days ago through ad campaign that she was pregnant with number nine and ready to burst pregnant with number nine. So this game is a surprise to everyone.

5:08Yep. They were hiding it. And so. Joyous. Congratulations. It should be a happy occasion. For sure. So what they did, so they have a lot of products. She's kind of a Joanna, Joanna gains in a way because they're going to eventually be having a store where you can go and shop. I think you can already shop the store, but I think they were talking about doing a bakery and other stuff. So essentially like a magnolia market, but ballerina farm. And this is in Utah because they're both LDS. Yep. She has nine million, million followers on TikTok, seven and a half million followers on Instagram, 1.6 million on YouTube. She is huge. She has got a massive following. And so it's not like she's the stay at home mom. She's a model that she just, she's very successful at what she does. And I think that's great. And so they have like all kinds of stuff actually really like their electrolyte drink. If you're looking for a good, I buy it, I drink it. I did through my pregnancy because she did through her pregnancy. I trusted it because her babies are healthy. And so now they just are releasing a protein powder and the commercial was beautiful.

6:12And it was all of these Juilliard dancers doing ballet. And then it was her and it was the slogan was something like strength. But it looks different now or strength on a different stage or something like that. And she's talking about motherhood. So she's watching these dancers dance like she used to. And then she pulls her jacket back and she's big and pregnant with number nine. Beautiful commercial. And loved it. And the internet lost their minds. Baby number nine, he's breeding her like a cow. This is just ridiculous. This man is manipulating her and all of this. And the whole thing started because I think it was the London Times did an article on her where they essentially asked to come out and meet the most famous tradwife and do a article on her family. She agreed they were very kind. And they had this reporter in their home. And you know that old story how that goes, they wrote essentially a hit piece on ballerina farm and on Hannah and her husband and how she was this gorgeous dancer.

7:15And all she ever wanted to be was a ballerina. And now she's this, this stay at home, tried wife that is just bred yearly. All she's allowed to do is have babies. And a lot of stuff has been kind of taken. They're grossed out by the fact that she abandoned this independent streak as a strong woman. And she gave all of that up for this traditional lifestyle where she is having a litter of children. Yes. A litter of children. Not that there's anything wrong with that. No, and she homeschools. She doesn't have a nanny, which I'm like, hey, we've got a wealthy family here that doesn't utilize a nanny. I think that's fantastic. And she runs a business. To me, she's a true proverbs 31 woman. It's really refreshing, especially having gotten to know so many people in the online space. We are parents who, much like we said here at the jump of this episode of podcasts, we like our babies to be close. We're always around. We do the homeschooling thing, but obviously, but so many people become so dedicated and

8:17devoted to creating content that they will like very happily cast their children aside and allow for them to be raised essentially by somebody else, which I don't personally agree with. Right. They will get nannies for the daytime nannies for the night time. We see that with gossipy podcasters, for example, that think that children don't wake up at 2.30 in the morning because that's when their REM sleep is, and it's, I was totally unaware of this, but I'm making an assumption and knowing that you were talking about it. No, I'm talking about Canisone. So she literally was attacking Erica Kirk because Erica said the night before Charlie was assassinated that their daughter woke up at 2.30 in the morning and got into their bed, which she regularly does. Okay. Sidebar. Total sidebar. Anyway, the fact that she was like, children don't get up at 2.30, I'm thinking this woman has a night nanny. If you don't know that children regularly get up at 2.30, because they don't know that REM sleep is on a schedule because it's not, you know, anyway, total sidebar.

9:22See, I'm just, now I'm vending. Go back in my little, so with Hannah Neelman, she doesn't have nannies. I respect that. She homeschools her kids. She bakes from scratch. She has a beautiful garden. She has a staff and that's why her place looks fantastic. Absolutely. They have a staff, but the staff does not nanny the children. She raises her babies. And that was part of the criticism of this article. They're like, she took her baby who was very young at the time and laid it on her chest where it remained for the four hour interview, like as if that was a bad thing. Fantastic. A lot of it. Yeah, it's where babies stay. And it's funny because I get a lot of crap for that too. I wear Micah a lot. If the weather is nice, I will be wearing Micah as long as he's tolerating it. We all do it. Yeah, we all sleep with Micah. You and I, especially, but the kids are a great job too. We cherish him because we now have the benefit of hindsight in knowing that this goes

10:22really quickly. And so we are soaking up every moment that we possibly can. Yeah, contact mapping didn't used to be a thing, but it's very much. Now we know all of the mental benefits and all of the physical benefits of contact napping. They sleep better. They feel more secure. It's good for their cortisol levels and it's awesome. Your little head and their little voices and their little mouth and breath. It's so funny. Anyway, anyway, so Hannah does a great job. And if she wants to have nine babies, go for a girl like she is killing it. They can afford it. She's there for them. The kids look happy, healthy. They're always interacting. I don't see any problem with it. But the internet is saying there's a few things. Hannah is, why are you bringing children into such a broken world when all this stuff is happening, all of, you know, war on the horizon and why would you ever bring children

11:23into a world that looks like this, especially so many children. And then the other criticism is you can't possibly love that many children or give them the attention that they need. I'm sorry. So what do you take on that? Honestly, I will go off on this topic if you'd like me to. I have been sharing about my favorite clean makeup and skincare brand for a few weeks now. And I've had so many of you guys writing to ask me what is the name of it. So it is Chups and Co. And I'm absolutely in love with everything that I've tried so far. When I actually started paying attention to ingredients and fragrances, I realized that I've been slathering hundreds of harmful chemicals onto my skin my entire life. And our skin is our body's largest organ. Everything that we put on it is absorbed right into our bodies. So I instantly dumped all my old skincare and makeup for Chups and Co. Now what I absolutely loved about Chups and Co was they use only super clean ingredients. I can get everything I need in one place. And they have really nice products that also nourish my skin while I wear them. Now I absolutely hate cakey makeup that feels heavy or greasy and it settles into all my

12:24fine lines. But Chups and Co just feels so light and it looks really natural. Normally I avoid liquid foundation, but I absolutely love theirs. Today I'm wearing the primer, the liquid foundation, the cream blush, the natural eye palette, the mascara and the lipstick. And they are by far my favorite makeup that I've ever tried. Besides the makeup, I have been loving the Balms and Fregansons balm is a fantastic natural retinal alternative and the body balms are so moisturizing and they smell amazing. I also got Baby Micah, the baby balm and it clears up all that teething rash and is chopped little chin and cheeks overnight. And I highly recommend it to anyone that has littles in their life. So if you're like me and you want to clean up your health and everything that you're putting on your skin without giving up quality, definitely go check out Tupes and Co. In fact, you will get 25% off your first order by going to Tupes and Co.com slash old soul. And when you do remember to use our code old soul for 25% off your first order. I will go off on this topic if you'd like me to because I get so sick and tired. We get some of this too. We have five kids.

13:25I love all of my children. It doesn't take away any ounce of love, care or affection having a number of children. It really does not. Especially when it comes to Micah, like I said, experiences taught so much and it's amplified that love tremendously. Plus, people can have as many kids as they freaking want to. Sorry, if you have the means to do so and you're providing your children with a fantastic quality of life, I don't care if you have 12 kids, I don't care if you have 20 kids. It pisses me off that anyone out there, we try to encourage somebody else to make the conscious decision to deprive themselves of the long-term happiness that you get to experience with having a large family. It's not only fantastic from a parental standpoint, but now that we have older children and a younger child, a one-year-old, nearly one-year-old, crazy to say, it's so beautiful to watch them interact. It is so incredibly fulfilling. There is nothing greater and I'm somebody who was raised as an only child.

14:27I didn't have any of this experience growing up myself, being a parent and seeing all of this come together. There's something that's so pure about it and just raw, it warms your heart like nothing else in this world. I love siblings. Now, I grew up with siblings, so you didn't have that experience when we first started having children. It was overwhelming. It was overwhelming. It was overwhelming. You know, if you don't want to have any more kids, I'm good. I'm good with one. There's nothing wrong with raising one child and then we had the two and you were good. Yeah, I've come around over time, but I guess the biggest, my biggest gripe is the fact that anyone out there feels comfortable telling somebody else what they should do with their own lives. If it's a situation where you don't have the means, okay, so it will be maybe there's more private chat and conversation that can take place and transpire, but you don't get to tell anybody else in this world what it is that they cannot or cannot do, I'm sorry. I don't agree with Tucker's whole, have more kids than you can, like he always said, have more kids than you can afford. I see what he's saying, but I don't think you should have more kids than you can afford and you shouldn't make it somebody else's problem. I also don't think you should keep popping out kids if you're not going to actively be

15:30there to raise them. If you're just throwing them into daycare and you're going back to work and you're putting your priorities or what you want or what you think you need, but it's really what you want above the welfare of your children because I truly think that at least for the first three to four years, your children need to be at home with mom all day. I truly, truly believe that for their mental well-being. I've seen a lot of stuff on that. There was this whole healthy attachment disorder thing going on where they showed two children and there was this one little girl who was very uncomfortable in this play, public play situation and she was holding on to her mom and when her mom left the room, she melted down. They had a stranger come in and to show her all these toys and try to entertain her and the little girl was not having it. She was hiding and then when her mom came back, she ran to her crying. Proper response. And then they showed a little girl who's playing with her mom in this public play area and then the mom leaves. The little girl doesn't even notice mom left. She's just playing. A stranger comes in, starts showing her toys.

16:32She plays with the stranger in the same way that she was playing with her mom. She did not care that she didn't know that woman. That's a product of our society and the things that we value and the way we do things is so sad. Yeah, they were asking the internet, which one is proper attachment? And almost everybody said the little girl that was unfazed and the correct answer was no. The little girl who was very alarmed that her mother was leaving, that a stranger was entering. That's proper attachment at the age of two. That is the way that it's supposed to be. Micah hates when I leave. If I go to the bathroom, he melts down, but you know what? He's 10 months old and at his age, that is proper attachment. He realizes that we are separate people now. Lifeline, my lifeline is me. And he realizes that I can leave and he doesn't like that. And that's actually a healthy feeling. It's so bizarre that things that people are willing to criticize and critique, you're holding your child too much. But you're holding it. I can't hold my child enough. You're having too many kids. Like granted, there are situations where maybe that can be the case, but when you're talking

17:33about it, just a normal, happy, healthy family, who functions in a way that isn't a detriment to anybody. Why are you speaking up? Having five children makes me tremendous joy. Why would you ever try to go out of your way to make that a negative thing? I just don't understand this mentality. And having nine children brought them tremendous joy and she is sitting in bed, looking fantastic right after she gave birth to her nine child. Fantastic. Oh, by the way, baby number nine arrived last night. So I'm like, oh, you also, you haven't slept and you look like that. You just brush your face and make up. I would criticize that more than having nine children because you know that's not the case in a round other way to make things look a certain way. They were just announcing her birth. It was very close. It was a quick little story. Baby number nine arrived. Very raw. Very raw. She looked like she had just given birth. She was still in bed. I'm pretty sure she was still sitting on the little birth bed and whatever. And she had the baby. I'm envisioning something else. No, she was no makeup. She just looks that way. It's a woman's beautiful. Right. She's just granola to the mass, but in the best glowy way.

18:34I must know what she should buy the protein. So the all of the criticism has revolved around the fact that they're having just too many kids. Too many kids and that the internet is convinced that this woman is being held captive. By this man and that he is forcing her to have these babies that she doesn't want. And I recognize that newborn bliss. She literally said we're just in newborn bliss right now. And she has 18 month old or two year old and pretty much every 18 months she's had a baby for the last 11 years. That's a lot of kids in a very short period of time. But again, it's their life. So be it. They get to decide for themselves. What I think all of that sense from is just the fact that you have certain people, certain groups of people who have this thought process were like, no, we need to leave all of that behind. We need to evolve, move on and become something new, entirely women, especially needs to embrace this streak of independence that so many of them have. And maybe she did genuinely feel that way at one point in time when she was attending Juilliard. But you're allowed to change your mind and think for yourself and find that happiness

19:34and fulfillment for yourself for them to go out of the way to vilify her husband by default and say, no, this is you're doing. You just manipulated her. We have a great example of actual spousal manipulation that we're going to discuss here in a second. Yeah. I can't wait to dive in it all on. But for both of them, if they're happy, if they're contented and they're ecstatic with their situation, good for them. Shut your mouth. Yeah. Yeah. I know. And the business they're building is tremendous. It's very successful. I hope that they continue their success. I think that they have a very beautiful example. If I see differently, I'll say I was wrong, I'll change my mind, but right now they seem happy. They seem healthy. They're family and people who should be looked at as being like an example of what is possible. Again, I hate seeing this, whether it be somebody who finds financial success, find success within their family. It's like, let's tear that person down because they broke away from the herd and they're doing their own thing and they found something that works for themselves. I have the inability thus far to do that. So I got to come after you. I got to pull you back down into the bucket. How dare you thrive and be successful where I'm not.

20:37And her being successful as a tradwife does not destroy the, you know, it doesn't take anything away from anyone else. Anything away from somebody who chooses not to have children or chooses a career or chooses to have a boy and a girl, and that's it, and be done. It doesn't affect those people. So she's not going after you. So why are people going after you? If you are that independent woman and you chose career over having a traditional family and lifestyle, again, congratulations. Do what you want to do. Everybody else just shut their mouths. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, congratulations to the Nielman family. Congrats. Adorable. All right, guys. Easter is just around the corner. We're all starting to think about filling up those baskets for all the little ones in our lives. Now, for many kids today, Easter means egg hunts candy, and of course, the Easter buddy. These are all really fun traditions, but they can also overshadow the true meaning of why we celebrate Easter and how the resurrection of Jesus changed everything. So this year's you try to find the perfect basket sufferers. Definitely go check out the incredible story that Brave Books just released from Christian

21:38apologists Melissa Dordy called the day that made the way to help families clearly explain the real story of Easter and the gospel behind it. Yeah, the day that made the way is a sweet story about creatures living in darkness until light enters the world, helping kids understand big biblical ideas like sin, redemption, and why Jesus had to die and rise again. Yeah, Melissa wrote it because she knows firsthand how easily people can be drawn towards spiritual ideas that sound good, but drift away from biblical truth, especially if they were never grounded in scripture early in life. In addition to the day that made the way, Brave also has a very sweet Easter bundle that is perfect for every basket this year. I got the whole bundle and there are two incredible books, a coloring book, an activity book, stickers, colored pencils, and the cutest, softest, funny. Just add some sweets and you're all set. Also right now if you join the Brave Book Club, which we've been telling you guys about for months now, you'll get the day that made the way for free along with the new children's book each month designed to help families teach biblical values and a Christian worldview when you go to bravebooks.com slash Easter. Okay, story number two. This is the one that I'm excited to jump into because you, I'm not familiar with this,

22:41I have no first-hand experience in reviewing any of this, but you and a vet were going off, telling me about it. This is insanity. Yeah, I told you a little bit about it when we were in Hawaii because that's when the story broke and then since then, I've just kind of been following it. And before we even jump into this, I'm your preface, excuse me, this portion of the conversation is like, we're not trying to judge, as I'm sure some people will perceive this, like this isn't about judgment. This is about people who are public figures who put this. They put this out publicly. This isn't gossip or slander. This is something that they have turned into content. And so when you turn it into content, I feel like it's okay to... And I genuinely wish them both the best. However, we are going to just analyze this situation because it's very complex and it ties, it intertwines into with faith, religion specifically. And just what we perceive to be right and wrong in a marriage. Yes. But yeah, like you said, it goes into a broader discussion of what modern churches or what

23:42modern Christianity says versus what is actually biblically based. All right. I think that's really important. So there is, if you guys remember the Duggers, I'm sure you did, there was another family called the Bates and they had bringing up Bates and it was the Duggers' best friends. And they were featured in one another's content. They had their own TLC show. It was called Bringing Up Bates. On the Duggers' show, they wore the big dress, they dressed more prairie. They had the look. Yeah, they had the look where the Duggers had kind of moved past that. They still wore the skirts and everything, but they didn't wear the homemade dresses and everything. And the Bates still really looked like they were definitely into that cult still. I mean, the Duggers were still like the cult and everything too. Yeah, the bunners. We refer to them as bunners. But well, they're not bunners. Bunners are the ones that wear their hair in the bun. That look, but that branch of Christianity, I'd say. Yeah. In Washington, there's a religion where, it's probably other places too, but definitely

24:44in the Pacific Northwest, there was this religion where they had a bunch of kids and they all the women were required to wear their hair in a bun. And so everybody called them bunners. And so these ones wear their hair big and puffy and curly and big prairie dresses. So anyway, that was the Bates and Bringing Up Bates. A lot of you guys have probably watched the show or at least are familiar with them. So now that the girls have gotten older and the boys have gotten older, a lot of them have left the religious cult that they were a part of. And now they wear jeans and stretch pants and woo, you know, they're being risky ladies and they're yoga pants. So Katie Bates was one of the girls that had left and then she married Travis Clark. Travis Clark is kind of an up and coming, or I don't even know if he's up and coming, maybe he's just a small time Christian singer. And he was featured a little bit on the show when they were recording and then they got married four years ago and they've since had two children.

25:45So she blew up on Instagram and they had a YouTube channel as well, making kind of similar content to ballerina farm, but not, not at all in the scene. It wasn't, it wasn't as like a home steady, it wasn't a home steady at all. She's, she lives, she dresses nice and she's into fancy hair and makeup and all of that. I'm like you, not the hair, yeah, sure. She's, it's a different aesthetic, but it's still like that, that mom, kids, this is how we do at birthday parties, this, that kind of stuff. So anyway, Travis and her would always make these reels back and forth of how much they appreciated one another, what a wonderful husband he is. She just posted a real couple months ago saying, I'm rich because he's the father of my children and then shows him playing with their kids. Back in December was their four year anniversary and he had this whole reel where he put together these roses and blew up balloons and everything to a surprise for on their four year anniversary.

26:49And I watched it and I got kind of an ick from it because it was so performative. It was way more, it didn't come across as authentic at all. Welcome to social media. It came across as so performative, like look at what a wonderful husband I was. And so often when somebody feels the need to show how wonderful of a husband they are or how wonderful of a father they are, they're overcompensating. They're overcompensating for something. So for some reason, Travis has always given me like, I just, he comes across as like a Hillsong mega church Christian that maybe is not so billically based and more performative and more, you know, I don't know, there's just, there's a type where I don't quite believe it. And so anyway, it turns out she got pregnant with her third child and they announced a pregnancy and all of that. And then she announces that she has miscarried and lost the baby in January.

27:50The very next day, he announces on his social media that he had an affair. Well, hold on. Before we even get to that point, didn't he put out some kind of a video notification that they were going to stop? Yeah. And I showed you that. It was right before we left for Hawaii, I'm, they put out a video saying this is our last video ever, not clickbait. We're quitting the channel. We're doing this. And I've watched quite a few of her things. So I clicked on it. I'm like, not a very detailed explanation from what I remember is just thank you for being here. We're good. We're done with this for now. We're going to focus on family. I thought it was weird because she worked so hard to build her Instagram and her TikTok and her YouTube and the YouTube was really just starting to take off and all of a sudden they're just out. Doesn't add up. And they said that it was because he was doing nursing school and it was just too much to balance. But it still, it didn't pass a smell test for me, but she looked happy and fine and whatever. And I don't think when they did the video that she was aware that he was having an affair

28:53and he wanted to end the channel, this is just my assumption, but he wanted to end the channel in preparation for confessing that he was having a career. He creatively put an end to everything knowing that there was some heavy criticism that was about to come his way. Right. And that they wouldn't be able to balance everything. So how does all of this come to life? So it all comes to light the day after she has the next day, the next day, which further tells me he was either being blackmailed by the other girl or something happened during the miscarriage that brought it to light. Some people were saying that I don't know, I don't want to spread rumors, but this was a spectacular thing. That something had come to light that maybe they're called the miscarriage or during the miscarriage. The doctor may be noticed something that brought to light, like possibly with like an STD or something like that, that brought to light that he was having an affair. This is all spectacular. Total speculation may not be the case. Maybe the girlfriend's like, tell her I love that's a private matter.

29:54Yeah. So something happened that made him confess publicly on Instagram via Instagram story to the world that he had cheated on her multiple times. It's deeper than that even. So you said that she didn't use any such as putting out posts, but the fact that he was working so hard and that she was so appreciative to him because nursing school was taking such a toll that there were times where he had to spend the night out of their home. And it turns out that I mean, common sense, two plus two, you know, I think the ideological finding would be that he wasn't going home because he was cheating on her. Yeah. Yeah. So she put out a reel that she was making in his favorite dinner because he was a nursing school and he was working so hard. So she put together this whole dinner and she made the house look all cute and cleaned and got the kids all dressed up and they were all excited because daddy was coming home that night and she said he's been working so hard that he's been staying out really late

30:55at night. And some nights he doesn't even come home. So he doesn't disturb us. He's working so hard and we're so proud of him and we love him so much. Really, he was out there having an affair with I wonder what that did to him in a moment. I don't know. I mean, it didn't bring him back home. It didn't bring him back home because that was posted a month before he ended the affair. So okay. Now the subsequent fallout is a part of this that you and I find absolutely crazy and I'd love to hear it won't take out there. Are we the ones that are being unreasonable because the people chiming in to the both of them? Well, okay. So to back it up a little bit, he said that he publicly wanted to confess because he felt like he needed that shame and everything to come on him. But me as a woman looks at a public confession as a humiliation for her. If you, I don't even want to use you as an example. If a husband goes publicly and says, I had an affair multiple times and I'm humiliated

31:57and I cheated on my wife and all this stuff publicly on social media, that embarrasses your wife further. The proper way of handling that would be to shut down both accounts temporarily and deal with your marriage. Deal with your marriage. You don't owe the public an explanation of what was going on. So this is one of my questions to you, is that has he now spun this into like content? He is spun into content, but she kind of has to. But I think she kind of is a force to because she has to address. She's being reactive. So I don't blame her at all. And she's trying to go to therapy and she's trying to do all these things. She's still posting reals. This is how she makes a living. And whether or not he's still living in the home, I don't know. She's not showing him on the content. But it sounds like they're trying to work their marriage out, which I don't criticize. It's her decision. Again, this is her decision to make everybody else. It's unfortunate to me that this is gone and become public because it's completely unnecessary.

32:59And it's going to do nothing but cause additional harm. Right. I personally think Travis Clark's a little weasel. He cheated on a beautiful wife after four years. You couldn't keep together for four years. What is wrong with you? And you're coming home to this beautiful wife. You have two gorgeous children, the woman's pregnant with baby number three. And you're out there skirting around with somebody from your class, apparently it was somebody that he was a nursing school with, who had been to their home multiple times. As, you know, this is my friend and my classmate and they had a Christmas party that apparently this woman attended on earth. So I mean, just ultimate betrayal. You're going to have the girlfriend and the wife in the same place and having, like, it turns out that he is the hero and she is the villain. It appears that way or at least she can come out the hero as long as she does what she's supposed to do, which is to forgive, forget, to move on and this man gets to just be redeemed.

34:00And when I read the comments, I go crazy because it's not, hey, you know, hey, Katie, this is your decision. I hope that you do what's right for you. There are a few people saying I hope you do what's right for you, but those people are being attacked. Now, if Katie wants to forgive Travis, that is 100% her decision and God will honor that. And I hope that their marriage can recover. And all of that, especially because the children seem to adore him. You mentioned it. The religious component to this is what makes it really interesting. Right. And part of the reason we struggle so much with, like, church teachings is because this seemed very cut and dry to me. She has, like, this is her prerogative. She can do whatever it is that she wants if she decides to leave the marriage and relationship. So be it. It's on him. She did nothing. Again, she's, she's acting in response to what it is that he did. It's, this is just crazy. Read some of these comments. If you come up on your phone there, you can pull some up. So I, the part that bothers me is, and I've heard this in churches that I've attended

35:04and in youth groups that our kids have gone to where they've come back and asked us, like, hey. Words. If your husband cheats on you, you cannot leave them. You must forgive them. The only recourse is to pray for them and to remain faithful and to continue honoring your husband. And that really annoys me because it's not biblically based. This is something that religion and modern Christianity and a lot of, not all churches, but a lot of churches say, but it's not biblically based. Because in the Bible, it says in Matthew, I think in Matthew 9 literally explains that if you get divorced for no cause and you, or, you know, the guy's not fulfilling you or the girl's not fulfilling you or not communicating or whatever, then you remarry that you are then committing adultery because you're still married in the eyes of God. There's one covenant. And though there's two exceptions. One is if you marry a nonbeliever and the nonbeliever leaves, the believer is not supposed

36:06to leave the nonbeliever because you're still in this marriage covenant. But if the nonbeliever leaves, then Paul tells us, let it be and God wants peace for you. And that's all in first Corinthians now in Matthew is in the case of adultery. If one person commits physical adultery and that's, I mean, I don't think that necessarily like you could go like, oh, there's been emotional adultery and things like that. I don't know about all that. The physical adultery, the marriage covenant has been broken. Now, that doesn't mean that you have to get divorced and that you're no longer married. But you are allowed to get divorced. And then you, in that case, you are also allowed to get remarried and it's not considered adultery according to God. I mean, when you look at the nature of God, yes, he is forgiving and he does offer grace. However, God is also a jealous God. God also is, I mean, he created marriage as a model of the way that Christ loves the church.

37:09And you're not to go out and have a bunch of other gods. You're only to have one God. You're only to have one husband and one wife. And if you commit adultery on that person, they are allowed biblically to file for divorce and leave. They are not forced to stay in the marriage. Not the response and reaction that she's getting, but not the response and reaction that she's getting. Which is one thing. The part that bothers me even more. Again, if you can pull those comments, it's just the fact that the way that he's being celebrated is what's. But the manipulation that he's carrying out, it's flat out. I don't know how else to phrase it. It's just straight up emotional and mental manipulation and things that he's doing are like this guy. It's just my daughter. I cannot imagine what my reaction would be. I would lose it on his, on his guy. I'm sorry, dude. Yeah. So his very last post, he's sitting in the grass. He has arranged pictures in a very performative way. They're wedding picture, picture of the children.

38:10He's holding a picture of him and her. And he has a new tattoo on his wrist, Katie. So so much pressure on Katie. She's trying to make a decision. Do I want to forgive this man? Do I want to, you know, she said, I'm trying. Trying to make a choice what's best for me and the children. You know, my response to that would have been, hey, homeboy, you certainly didn't have this photo montage in mind when you were spending the night at somebody else's house. Right. Maybe you should have, because the betrayal, in this case, it's not just her, it is their entire family. Right. You didn't do this just to your wife. You betrayed your children, your family, it's like all of it. It gets me so fired up. I'm really sensitive to this stuff. One tattooing Katie on his wrist to me was the ultimate form of manipulation, of mental and manipulation, because he's like, look at how serious I am. I have permanently put your name on my wrist. Serious about it now. And so, yeah, and so for her, she's going to whether people think so or not, she's going

39:15to feel added pressure to forgive this man, because he's publicly making this beautiful post of their wedding picture, and with the caption, I've been sitting in what I did for a couple of months now, and I feel so much inside, but it's hard to find the right words. At the end of last year, I made decisions that I deeply regret, and I'm disappointed on where to go. Of course. Well, that's funny, Dandy. Tell that to your wife. I'm disappointed, ashamed, honestly, humble, the lot of hard work, therapy time with God, blah, blah, blah. Okay. So, that's all I would read it. When you make public statements like this, you're garnering support for yourself. You're making yourself a sympathetic figure. How hard he's working. He has asked for forgiveness from you and from God, and he's sorry. So now, if she makes the decision, which I don't think she will, but if she makes the decision to get a divorce and to move on with her life, because she's young, and there was betrayal, and she doesn't think she can move past it, which she is not biblically

40:18bound to do, she will come out the villain in the situation, because look at how sorry he was. He's sitting there with his white sneakers and your wedding pictures, and he's really sorry. And you couldn't forgive him. You didn't care at the time, did you? Right. And so the comments are, you know, God offers grace, and she needs to offer grace. They're confusing Katie with Jesus. Jesus offers grace. And yes, we are to forgive, but that doesn't mean you can forgive somebody. But that doesn't mean that you need to take them back. You can forgive things in your life that hurt you from people who hurt you, but that doesn't mean that you need to continue on with the relationship. And like you pointed out, that forgiveness is not for the sake of the person that hurt you. Right. Offering that forgiveness is for you to find peace. Yes. Now, again, the decision is Katie's and Katie's alone, but the internet is chiming in by the tens of thousands, tens of thousands of examples, freedom, because it drives me nuts.

41:21So on his post, there's so many, I'm so proud of you guys. I fully, I'm proud of you, brother with, you know, sunset hearthands, walk in obedience, no matter the situation it turns, you will know you'll be honored to God praying for you, bro. One person wrote, run, Katie, run, and then people just jumped on that person. How dare you? And then somebody else wrote the only way through is through. And then somebody else responded, no, sometimes the way through is out. And then people jumped on that person. Nope. You obviously don't know your Bible. What is going on? It's, it's not biblically based to force a woman to stay in a marriage after adultery. Conversely, what are her comments? So her comments are way more critical than his comments. So she's going on a four day retreat for her mental health. So this woman is clearly tortured right now, trying to make it, yeah, exactly. You're, all of this is playing out in public. You're humiliated.

42:22You have all this pressure. You have people telling you that the only biblical way, the only Christian way of dealing with this is to forgive this man. Basically, you have to or you're not a good Christian. You're not a good wife. You're not a good mother. Why don't do this to your children kind of comment? How is that the Christian thing to do? She's being criticized for going on a retreat and then she's packing her clothes. She's showing a packing thing. I think it was an integration or something like that, a brand integration. And then she's like, I'm going to pack this clothes because there's some yoga at the retreat. There's also equine therapy. So there's horse riding and there's some yoga of like stretching. People jumped on her for the yoga, telling her that if you participate in yoga, that is demonic and that's probably why you did it, but she's demonic. So that's probably why she cheated on her and Katie. I understand what you're doing here, but the fact that you're doing yoga, they're criticizing this woman because she mentioned there's yoga at the therapy resort that she's now forcing. You told me there were people that are like, why aren't you taking your husband with you?

43:25Yes. Is your husband growing? You need to bring your husband. The person causing you the mental anguish that is causing that is leading to you feeling it necessary to go on some kind of retreat. Yes. How dare she? How dare she go and try to figure out her own mental state and what she needs in her life. She should be taking her husband. She should be shopper-roading her to this. Again, it makes total sense. Yeah. So I just feel really bad for her because she's not truly making a choice for herself. I would have loved to see them both step away from social media, not post the public affair. If it came out in the news, it comes out in the news. Guess what? We're not answering our phone. We're not reading DMs. We're not reading comments. We're dealing with this in-house, privately, so that I can make an informed decision for me and my children. There are films that entertain you and then there are films that change you. I was a stranger is one of those films. Inspired by the real experiences of Syrian families displaced by war, this gripping escape thriller begins in Aleppo with a single moment of tragedy and follows five interconnected families across four countries as their lives collide in ways that they never expected.

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46:29It's just it's a fine example of one of the many things that like bothers me so much about integrating like family family's period. Yeah. It's a hard decision. I mean, what a part of it's hard decision. If you didn't have children, it's not a hard decision at all. Get out girl. You're young and beautiful. Yeah. She knew whatever she wants. Like we said before, it's her decision to make. Right. It's incredibly unfortunate that it happened to begin with. In taking like this entire situation and making her twice the victim by with like using social media to to garter leverage such a little weasel on nobody sees it. Well, the case of mental manipulation and emotional manipulation. Yeah. Some people see it that way. But I see it as like this man. It's just such a little weasel. He's such a performance. Little weasel. That'd be my opinion as well. I've zero respect for men. I do this kind of crap. Dude, pull this kind of crap. Like or women. It doesn't matter. It's stuff that I'm sensitive to because of how the, you know, just what it is. I experience growing up and like, you know, there have been people along the way. There have even been men along the way that I've like befriended that have gotten themselves involved in self-ledism. I've just repelled them.

47:29I do it on. Nothing to do with that. Right. Nothing at all. Yeah. It's a it's a recipe for misery. Yeah. It always ends horribly. Yeah. Well, and people say, well, they have children. So then they have to piece it back together because children adore him. Yeah. Worst of all. So we have reels of them playing and everything. But we also had reels of him currently having an affair decorating the entire house to celebrate their anniversary with a very performive little caption about how lucky he is. And she's the best friend and he'll love her forever and all the stuff while he's currently sleeping with somebody else. So we don't know anything about the way that this man, father, we do know that he wasn't coming home at night because he was sleeping with the girlfriend. It's all a part. You're a liar. You're a liar. You're unfaithful. Right. And you're untrustworthy. Are you beyond redemption? No. I don't know. It depends on where your heart is. Everyone is capable of redemption. You made a horrible, awful mistake and victimize your wife and your kids in the process. But now are continuing to do so. And you're still doing it. Like you're making the same mistake repeatedly. It's one thing to make a horrible mistake and learn from it and emerge a better person, which is what we should all hope for for anyone ourselves included.

48:32How about before you make a close like that that is like, look how sorry I am and look at how much I love my wife. How about before you permanently tattoo her name on your wrist and then show it to the entire world to Garner sympathy. You see if she even wants you back. And you give it a while and you prove over years, possibly over decades that this woman can trust you again. Privately. Yes. Privately. And let her grieve and deal with this privately. You threw this affair out into the public and that's further victimizing her and further humiliating her. And then for the people commenting on this again, shut it. Yeah. Stay out of it. Yeah. Let her decide. Don't tell her that she has to do this or she has to do that. This is for her to decide. You're entitled to your opinion. We're here offering ours and this is all again. This isn't, you know, well, we're not saying whether or not she should stay or leave. I mean, if it were me, I'd probably be out. I'm saying she should do what she feels is best for herself and her children. Right. For her children. That's what I'm saying.

49:32I think for her children and that's probably ultimately what she's thinking. Is this man a good father? And get the hell off of social media. If so, can I bear this burden for the sake of my children? And I feel torn on that one too because if someone's a really, really good father, you don't want to remove the father from the home because we all know that that causes damage when you made the decision, but the children didn't. And it's ultimately the children who suffer. So I understand that mental pull, but at the same time, they have a daughter. And what is the message that you're giving your daughter that mom wasn't worthy, that dad's a liar and a cheat, also that if this happens to you, that you that are expected biblically to forgive, you have to. And so you have to think about what message does this give? Does it give the message of a strong woman? Because there can be strength and forgiveness, but there can also be strength and independence. So it depends on the situation. They know more about the situation than any of us ever could.

50:33For sure. And so my opinion, not that it matters would be that that's a very passive approach. If you're going to take that person back, like you are conveying a message to, yeah, especially if you have daughters of like, no, this is acceptable, these things happen. I don't, I don't ever want one of my kids to think that. Yeah. I think a true mistake. I think true mistakes can happen in the heat of the moment, maybe under alcohol, maybe one time. But in ongoing relationship, while pretending to be a good husband, while making content about what a wonderful, while releasing new Christian songs, tell me about this one. And controversial take. Feel free to let me know what you think down in the comments. Can men and women, especially if they're married, but even if they're just involved in a really long term relationship, a serious relationship, can men and women have a platonic friendship with a member of the opposite sex? Is that something that you're comfortable with? No. Because I am not comfortable with it. I don't think that I think that there are very, very rare instances, very rare. And because it is the exception, the big exception to the rule, because whenever a man and

51:35a woman get along really well, they'll start seeing flaws in their spouse or in their boyfriends or girlfriends. You just don't go there. It'll be like, look at how fun this person is, it's because you don't live with that person. And I'm not saying, like, you know, like, don't have a casual conversation. Like, you might have long term male friends, one that we're dealing with right now. Like, I don't, like, stuff like that doesn't bother me. You had other people on the social media. But I'm not going and hanging out with them. Right. I would never go get in out with them. I was like, oh, hey, have a good day of work, honey. I'm going to go hang out with Bob for the, I'll be like, oh, oh, yeah. Not happening. And I would expect the same of you. Yeah. Because those same expectations upon me, I would never consider to be unreasonable. Yeah. If you were like, hey, this girl that I knew from Hawaii is in town and I'm going to go get lunch with her. That's funny because that, no, you don't play with fire. No, you don't. You don't do it yourself in these situations. And that's why I'm saying, like, for you to be like, I understand, like mistakes can happen. Yeah, they can. But that's why you avoid those situations. Right. You don't do that. You don't go there. And then if the mistake does happen, there's a mistake as you trip in you fell, you

52:37know, but you fell in it, but it's kind of like with kids. If they drop something and they shatter in it, it breaks like, ah, that was a mistake. That was an accident. But if they continually break things on purpose and they make the choice to, like, they break a window with a baseball and then they grab the baseball and they go, that was fun. I'm going to throw it and break out all the other windows and then they try to say it was a mistake. It's not a mistake. That was a conscious decision. It's a great analogy, but I get your point. I mean, though, it's just, I don't know. I get I'm sensitive to these situations. Let us know what you think down in the comments below for one, can men and women be friends? Seriously, blown an author. I'm sure many of you have had a platonic relationship with a member of the opposite sex while involved in a serious relationship yourself. Also, can there be true redemption in a marriage where somebody has betrayed the trust with an ongoing relationship? I'm not talking about on one night. Stan, I'm talking about somebody had a relationship. there ever be true trust again? Or is that just a burden that the person who forgave

53:39bears forever? I've made the decision, but as somebody, I haven't been cheated on, but I'm sure we have people in our audience that have been cheated on and have forgiven, do you carry that burden forever? Or can you actually, is our true redemption to be found? Can you be found? That's a scarring traumatic. Can it ever be what it was before? I would argue it cannot be. Personally, that's me. Let us know what you guys think down in the comments section. We're going to wind this one down. The kids are supposed to be coming home right now. I know. I've been listening. Literally, I've been listening for the grad. Oh, we have asphalt now. See, the gravel used to go, if he has a quiet car. So I'm hoping they're home now, but hope they make it back safely. I want all the ducklings back. Come, ducklings. All right. Anyway, you guys take care. Thank you for being here once again. I'd love to appreciate you. We will see you next week. Yep, we'll be here. Next week, we'll see you here on the New World Postal Podcast. Yes, take care.