Episode 168- How to be a parent to an athlete

0:00Do you know you can smell fall for the first time? I think I really smelled spring for the first time. I know we'll probably have another snowstorm or two, but whether this week's going to be nice, I've planned the first couple things from...well, not the first couple things, because we had our hike on Saturday. It was great with the green boys. But plan my first couple things. I think we'll have some dirt here soon. Maybe not by this week. I guess we'll see. Depends on how it gets. But it feels like the riding season is really kind of starting to start. It's getting close. Some of the groups, not all the groups,

1:00but some of the groups have started getting some activities going. I mean, there's still not a lot of...it would be hard to go ride trails right now. There's not much. There's not much, but some of the groups have been getting together and doing hikes. I actually, yesterday, went with the purple girls. They go to every year. They go to a climbing gym and do climbing and have a pizza party. I want to be on the purple girls. You know what? It's such a cool group. Sorry, green boys. I have so much respect for the people running that group. Wayne and Tyler and Sean and Ken, they've been doing it for a long time, and they just do such a good job. It was just so cool hanging out with those guys. On your hike, that was fun. It's fun to meet some new...some of the riders and get to learn some of the names. But yeah, it's exciting seeing things starting to get going. Yesterday's hike was fun, huh? It was really fun. Yeah, that was good.

2:00That's boring. It wasn't boring. That was my goal. That was my goal. I got a good workout. I realized I'm getting old. Yeah, there you go. Forward jump in. Crazy stat. I want to share with you. World Tour road racing has started. We had the kind of middle east stuff. We're getting stuff in Europe. Finally, there was Strata Bianca, which is that race in Italy where they race on the dirt roads. I think it's the most visually spectacular bike race. Isn't that gravel racing? No, it's not. It's a road race, but there's significant sections that are unpaved. It's not technical. It's a really well-maintained dirt road. It's not gravel. It's a dirt road. You know, Jeremy Ranch Road is significantly more hardcore than this. We're talking smooth enough. They run normal with tires. Poga Charles won the last four years now. I'm not going to spy mean spoil. He won, right? But I wanted to throw out the last three years he's won by attacking 80 kilometers out, which is big. Someone did a 2.2, so 40-ish miles out.

3:02Attacking solo, 40 miles out. Which is normally a really bad strategy. Which is he's kind of the only one in the world who can do that. His average power the last two years during that 80-kilometer attack. At the end of a decently long race, 340 watts, which is wild. This year, he averaged 380-380 watts solo for 80 kilometers. Which is just crazy because I probably weigh at least 50 pounds more than he does, right? Yeah, I mean, he probably weighs something. He probably weighs in the high 130s to low 140s, if I guess. Way more than 50. I weigh like 60-70 pounds more than he does. I can do 380 watts for maybe two minutes. Yeah, that's nuts. Like, Poga Char is putting down some Mike Ellsworth power. Like, they's probably the only guy who could show up to the Maybirds Whift and beat Mike. Yeah, no, it was crazy to watch. That's cool. Like, real true dominance.

4:03I wanted to throw that out because I'm excited for the rest of the year. I would love, and as much as I'm like a Poga Stan, I'd love to see someone beat him. I think it would be cool to see if people can rise to the occasion. But outside of that, announcement wise on your end, what do you got? Okay, so, announcements wise. So for our coaches, we tried to plan a hinging clinic for Saturday, but we need to use the grass to do that. And I thought I figured the grass was going to be too wet to do that. So that's going to come up soon. I'm not sure when, but that's going to be like. So the whole, like, if you're, if you're one of the coaches and you're planning on helping with your skills clinics, the whole hinging thing is really cool. It's, it's just a few really simple physics lessons we give that can, like, no matter what level you're at at writing,

5:09being good at this and understanding this is going to make you faster, smoother and safer. We want to say, this is not a thing we came up with to add some credibility here. I don't know how many years ago it was, but we've, we've done pretty extensive training from from Lima, this comes from Lima, to be able to teach this. And we've been teaching it for years and years, and and it's just kind of like, like, if you're a beginner, it's going to be beneficial if you're already a fast varsity, Nica Boy, it's going to be beneficial. So, but the whole purpose of this coach is one is to just teach the coaches how to teach their groups. So if you are a coach, particularly the youth coaches, when we schedule the next one, hopefully you can make it to that. So, so the, but we did have to postpone that. Now, this coming Wednesday, at 5.30, and the address is on team snap, but it's on the U of U campus.

6:09And we have, we have a first-aid class, and it's taught by Josh Larson, and this guy is awesome. He's great. He's really, really good. Yeah, he specializes in wilderness medicine. He's a teacher up at the U. Both Foreman's the one that that got him to do this for us. He is like usually, I think of first-aid classes as boring. Like the Boy Scouts, where the guy comes, and like the Nica ones aren't very good. I'll just say it. This guy's good. This guy is, he's really entertaining. Shit. And it was, it's super fun. He makes it fun. And this is for this, this class is really designed for people that don't do Nica for a first-aid training. So, mainly kind of the youth coaches, or people that aren't currently involved with Nica, that's who this is designed for. But everyone should come. Well, you can't. I mean, yeah, there's only so many rooms in the seats in the classroom, so not everyone should come,

7:12but if anyone is welcome to, they could if they wanted. So, Wednesday at what time? At 5.30, address is on team snap, but you really don't want to miss it. It's good. Let's see, trying to think of, and while we're kind of on the subject of coaches, you know, a lot of coaches are starting to reach out to people, and some people have already started doing rides. And others haven't yet, but they will soon. I just want to say how grateful I am to those who are willing to do this. And I'm always so impressed at how just dependable you are, and that you take care of these riders and learn their names and have fun with them and create awesome experiences. And I just can't even express how grateful I am for those that are willing to help. And I think there's a lot of people willing to help that I don't know yet,

8:15because everyone I've kind of picked to lead the groups or people that already know. But I'm looking forward to meeting more people that are willing to help and put these people to work in whatever capacity I can, and so forth. But it's been, it's just kind of humbling, and I'm just so grateful for what people do. And so thank you so much for making this all possible. We couldn't do without you guys. One other thing I wanted to hit really quick on TeamSnap, I wanted to remind people, if you need help from Dan, reach out to Dan directly. Dan's email is Dan Draper outside at gmail.com. You can also reach Dan directly through TeamSnap. Be sure that if you were trying to reach out to Dan, you are not sending a message to the entire team. If you go to the Messages tab on TeamSnap and then click Chat, the thing that pops up at the top, Team Chat, will send a message to all three to four hundred people who are signed up on Mavericks TeamSnap. If you click the little plus

9:20button up at the top, you can find Dan's name, scroll down Dan Draper, send him a message directly, send me a message directly, depending on what you need, or send Dan an email. Be sure there might be a circumstance where you would need to send something to everyone on the team, but I can't. Yeah, I mean, it happens, but just use it judiciously. Yeah, or maybe the whole chat for your kids team, but the whole Mavericks group, again, is a few hundred people, so make sure that you're sending any inquiries you have directly to Dan or to myself or to your kids' coach. Yeah, and there are some times that it is good to send a message out to the team that would pertain to the whole team. The one thing we discourage, I don't really crack down on it too hard. We just discourage it is using it to sell things. Yeah, it happens. People do it. That's I don't freak out too much about it, but we do try to discourage it just because we just don't want. We don't want people turning off notifications because they're getting

10:22five pounds a day mail for people. We want, you know, if I get on there and say something, I want people to read it, you know, because if I go on and say something on TeamSnap, I feel it's pretty important. Yeah, I want you to read those. And, you know, if you're getting too many messages, like everyone's in a group chat that they ignore. Yeah, you know, I've got several on that that I just ignore. We don't want this to be something people ignore. So, we'll just yeah, we'll just kind of throw on that out there, I guess. So, I did want to talk a little bit about Vale Lake. So, Vale Lake's coming up soon. In the past, I have, you know, we have this, we have a team van where we can take, you know, we can take riders down, we can take bikes down and all the team gear and kind of travel as a team. It seems to me like most of the people that have signed up to go to Vale Lake are already kind

11:25of traveling with their families or have siblings on another team and they're kind of going down with them. So, I don't know, I don't know what really to do about team travel. So, if you are thinking of going to Vale Lake and interested in it, reach out to me and we can kind of talk about how you're planning on getting there and so forth. And, you know, because if we go down, I do want to do things as a team and kind of spend some time together and do some fun things together and stuff. But it doesn't seem like we have as big of an interest as we've had in previous years and so, yeah, just kind of reach out to me and we can discuss that. It's kind of helping me to shape how we're going to handle some of these national races moving forward. Again, that's, it's a race that like, it's, it's a UCI, U-SAC sanctioned race. Really,

12:30unless you're kind of like like the top in your field, like top varsity level riders, top that's really kind of who would do well at these races. Definitely not for everybody. It's not as welcoming as like an eye cup. Yeah, it's kind of, it's more or less the highest level of racing that you can participate in in North America. Yeah, absolutely. And it's cool. I do want to say it's a cool event. Like, I make no secret that I think a lot of the national races are not things I would go out of my way to go to. Vale Lake's cool. Southern California is especially this time of year. Southern California is heaven on earth, right? It's beautiful, but it's not an eye cup. The racing is intense. The officials are very intense. They bring a whole lot of vigor to, you know, it's like, and it's out of the way. So I think with all of these, depending on how much interest we have in a given event, we'll modulate our approach. I mean, if we're up to me, I'd go pick a fun, cool endurance race and go do it. Yeah. And if you want to

13:31do that, let us know too. If we have, if we have 20 people telling us they're going to whatever, like, yeah, like, it seems like these are trending pretty popular. So I keep doing it. I've been doing it for a long time. I personally'd rather do endurance races, but that's worse me. But yeah, so, but yeah, reach out if, if, and we can kind of discuss, like, if you're interested in team travel or I just want to make it fun for those that come down and, and kind of a team bonding thing, like it's been in the past, it's been super fun in the past. Like I said, the people's people, I think what people want out of racing is shifting a lot, and especially compared to when we started the team. And it is, our approach is going to be different. If we have two people who want to do an event versus 60 people who are all going to go to an event, it'll change the way that we approach as a team. So we want to support you in whatever it is that you're going to do, but based on the number of people who are going in, in the situation, just let us know. Communicate your needs. I want to say, I mean, yeah, that's Dan's world. Communicate to Dan. We're flexible when we listen. So, okay. So, I mean, there's got to be more announcements, but I'm not really

14:34thinking of them right now. You know, okay, quiz time. I'm so excited. Quiz time. It's my turn to be quiz. It's just turn to be quiz. This is a really good quiz. I came off pretty well last time. You, you, you really did. Okay. This one is going to be harder. Okay. This one's hard, but when we discussed this, you said it was your favorite episode that we did. Oh, really? Yeah. I said this at the time when we recorded the episode. Oh, oh, okay. In fact, in the title, you put Dan's best episode. I don't think that sounds like me. How long ago was this? It was, I have no memory of this. It was right before we moved from Teton. We recorded it in the backyard. Oh, so this has been a minute. Yeah, it's been a while. Okay, this has been a minute. Okay. And it's an episode you should go back and listen to, but man, I was on the uncharacteristically complimentary there, huh? Okay, let's hear it. What do we got? Okay. So the topic we were talking about the self-determination theory. Okay. SDT. Okay. Okay. Don't get those letters mixed up. Yeah. Keep those in order.

15:41Which this theory explains human motivation and how to foster intrinsic motivation. Yeah. Do you have a memory of this? Okay. And we have the whole, the third, the episode was on motivation and it was, it was really interesting. And yeah, we referred back to this a few times, but there are three basic psychological needs that foster motivation. Can you think of any of them? Oh, yeah. Any of the three. Three that foster motivation is like, does this sound familiar? Yeah, this sounds familiar. I'm, I'm, is like obligation one that you have to do it? No. Okay. All right. Well, okay. Is it, is it? That's interesting, though. Yeah. Um, I get it. I kind of think obligation, motivation are different. They are. Well, yeah. And then commitment versus motivation. Okay. That's, that's what we were going to talk about today. We're going to talk about that next week. So I, I need some, I need some kind of a hint. I bet there's somewhere in the brain. So the first one

16:41is think of a McDonald's worker versus a doctor. That was the, and that was the example we used in, in the episode one has student loan debt. The word I'm looking for starts with an A. And one is able to make more decisions. Oh, autonomy autonomy. Oh, okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. So autonomy. And the next one. So yeah, autonomy is the first one. Competence is the second one. Okay. And the third one is relatedness. Okay. Well, I don't remember that. But it doesn't sound great. I don't really good. Sounds good. And in fact, like with, with everything with so much that I try to do with Maybird, I keep those three things in mind. And, you know, the competence we talk about like training, we talk about like skills, knowledge, knowledge that that helps with the competence,

17:46the relatedness. That's just the group rides. That's going to races and being part of a cycling community. Maybird does tons for that. autonomy is a little trickier. And so the reason I kind of did this quiz is, is a lot of what we're talking about has to do with autonomy. So I thought it would be kind of an appropriate quiz that led into my quiz is a more fun. I'm like, what's the maximum tire you can fit on a, you know, like, I guess yours is more relevant. But yeah, I didn't mean it to be that relevant. Um, the quiz is kind of dorky. It should be fun. You should be like asking me like a like some goofy meeting those questions. Sorry for the not fun quiz this week. You're making me learn. Um, no, that is good. I do remember this episode. Um, and I didn't really expect you to remember those three because, okay, I was going to say, I went over three, but also if I had, if I had remembered any of those, I would have been shot. You would have been floored. Yeah. Okay. That's okay. Um, but I do want people to remember those three things because they're, they're good. They're critical. Yeah. So, um, yeah, do we have

18:51anything else? We just go into the, uh, I want to throw it out again. Um, a lot of road riding happens this time of year. Um, I love riding on the road. It's been a lot of time riding the road. I do want to remind you again. I was driving to pick something up today. And I had three separate incidents where I had to like take emergency evasive action on my 20 minute drive today. Roads are dangerous. Pay attention. Be smart. Um, for my kids going out and riding, like, I saw a kid in a Nike kid, um, a couple days ago out on the road with like, your buds in. I do want to just throw out that if you're going to be riding on the road, be very safe. That's my only plug for this week. Okay. So, and, and two, like when you're riding in a group on a path, yeah, oh, yep. Yeah. Like, like, I think sometimes when we're riding in groups on a path, you just kind of switch off your brain and you're worried, more worried about talking to your buddy, and you don't realize you're about to run over a homeless guy or something. Yeah. So, um, so,

19:57yeah, just, uh, riding in groups, just pay attention, but don't crash into people with lawyers. Um, I'm, you've, you've told me you've read an article from so proud of you. Um, no, that's not fair. You read way more than I do. So, you read an article that you want to talk about this week, which I love because it's something that's been on my mind a lot. Um, not just with this team, but with, um, um, my job too, um, that I think is really interesting. Um, you told me not to read the article though. Yeah, I'm interested to get here. I wanted to get more of your raw, raw, raw reactions because I think this is something that you don't water down the emotions here. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Just going to find really interesting and, um, and I was actually kind of preparing for another topic and came across an article that I just thought was really, really interesting. Um, before we, you know, before we get into it, I just want to disclaim a few things. Um, and the, the main thing is that like so much of what we talk about in this podcast,

21:01are things that we haven't done perfectly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, like, I'll remind you, the genesis of this team is that we bungled my Nika experience really badly. Like we, the, the whole reason this team exists is that we made some hilarious, like in retrospect, hilarious mistakes with our approach. So like, we're going to be very open about the fact that we like cut us. Yeah. We kind of suck a lot. Like a lot of things. So don't think, I just don't want anyone to think we're like preaching from a, you know, yeah, we're perfect and you should, it's more like we, we, we, we stepped in the bear trap and it hurt. So don't do that. Yeah. Exactly. And I think a lot of the things I'm talking about today, um, I realized I, I've screwed up on these fairly recently. Okay. You know, so we're all learning and we're all trying to be better and, and you know, hopefully you listening are wise enough that you can learn from us and not have to. I will say the thing that we're talking about, the people who are listening

22:01to this are good at in general. I'm almost, that's the, my one hesitation with this episode. I think of the people who I know listened to this podcast a lot and the core message here, I think people on this team tend to be really good with. Exactly. I think that most people listening have been better with this than I have been. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so, but I, I do also see some people that this concerns me. Yeah. So I think it's really worth talking about. So, so yeah. Okay. No graceful start there. Very well done. Okay. Let's do it. Okay. Let's jump in. Let's jump in. So we, we talk a lot about comparing ourselves to other people in, in why that's bad and, and we're going to probably talk about that more next week. But, but there's a couple of reasons why it's not really fair to compare ourselves to other people. And one is, I guess kind of

23:04the obvious one is just like, you know, genetics, you know, there's, there's some people that might just have some genetic gifts and they just might, you know, that they've talented thing, talented thing. Some people are blessed with an ability. And this is all sports. Like some people just shoot a basketball and it just, they're good at it. Yeah. Some, you know, some people, I can tell you like some kids read better than others. Some kids do math better than others. Like I was always a great reader and a terrible math doer. You know, biking and biking is the same. There are a lot of people who just kind of get on a bike and they just, you kind of look at the guy and you're like, that kid is going to be good. And then there's other people where it's less intuitive. Okay. And that's just one thing, you know, I just, I just want to get that one out of there. Yep. I don't think it's as big as people think it is. I think that if you want to be a professional, you need some, you need some, but I think you don't need it. I think anyone that's willing to put in some time can be decent. So that's not what we're talking about today. The other one though that makes it not really fair to compare yourself or why you shouldn't really compare yourself with

24:06other people's opportunities. Yeah. Just resources, time, you know, money. Like these are all, this is why I think like a lot, like I try not to compare myself to like Nike kids because I'm like, I have to go to work and I'm like, I'm married. I have my lives in a different place than yours as I can't throw 20 hours a week at anything other than my job, you know, like or like comparing yourself to kids who just had like like money helps cycling is cycling is an expensive sport. Money, you can do it without, but it's like money helps supportive parents is another one. If you're trying to kind of do that, we've known kids who have more or less been doing this as a solo operation and that's hard to where you live. So I'll throw out as another huge one. Yeah. So your opportunity is that you've been blessed with or you just lucked into or whatever. It's just a major factor now. No, I'm thinking of a girl just I want to just, and well, let's talk about parental support. Yeah, that's kind of what we're talking about. Yeah, parental support. And and parental

25:06support is it's got to be one of the top factors for kids being able to succeed in the sport. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like it'd almost be impossible to succeed without without at least sufficient parental support. No, the thinking of a girl that wanted to get into cycling because her friends were doing it. And she was able to get a hold of a used bike, you know, for for cheap. I think she bought it with her own money. And like she could only like if she did a race, she had to pay for it. And, you know, and and and she did okay. She did fine. But with, you know, with without that parental support, like I honestly think this girl could have been like a varsity racer and done

26:06really, really well. But she was just kind of kind of doing it on her own. And it's not even just the money, right? It's like it's like the money, transportations and other huge one, especially if you're, you know, you don't have a car like. And then I also think just like having a parent to because you're kids, you know, like and you forget, you know, you forget when you haven't been a kid for a minute that like having a grown up that is like in your life being just supporting you in general. It's like a hard sport like mountain biking to where there's a steep learning curve and there's, you know, like not having parents who are like committed to the sport. Even if they're supportive, I'm sure parents are supportive outside of cycling, right? But like supporting you in a tough sport like this is, that's tough. And I don't say it like limits your potential, but like it makes your backpack heavier. I don't know what metaphor we can use there. You can still get to the top of the mountain, but it's, you know, you're not wearing shoes. I mean, Joe sees this as a teacher. I mean, the kids that have a lot of parental support at home have enormous advantages

27:09at school. Oh, you know, so yeah. Yeah. So parental support is huge. And I'm just so thankful to all the parents that that help make this happen that not just support their kids, but support us. Oh, go beyond supporting their kids to support everyone's kids. I think that's, I think that's next level cool. Yeah. Because there, there's coaches out there willing to even, I guess neglect their I don't know if that's the best word. I know you mean to like take time they could be spending with their kid. And this even to help other kids. And even if you're not coaching, if you're driving your kid and maybe a couple other kids to practice, that's huge, right? Like anything that you're doing is huge. Yeah. So yeah. So, so thanks to your parents. So thank your parents for supporting you. This wouldn't be possible without them. Obviously, parental supports huge and it's a key factor to succeeding. But the question I have is, is, is, parents give too much support? That's a really interesting

28:13one. Because my gut, my gut is that you can't give too much good support. But like, I don't know because I, I will say that I, I, I, more of the problem I have is parents not being involved enough because they're busy because everyone, they, they all work to warehouse jobs is how it kind of seems to go. But like, you do, if you do see the cases sometimes where like they haven't let the kid fail or they haven't ever let the kid get a bad, really have parents try to like bargain with me to get the kid a better grade, which is weird, especially in sixth grade where their grades don't, that mean my kids aren't listening to this, where their grades truly don't like mean anything, they don't affect them in any material way. And then you see it in sports too. Not as much on this team. Again, I, I do think there's a certain type of person who's attracted to this team, where it's a lot less. But I, I think in Nike, you see plenty of examples of like, like, the classic one's like living through your kid, like in any sport, which you see in soccer, football or anything.

29:13But yeah, I do, I do, I definitely think that, yeah, you can kind of be too, I don't even want to say too supportive though, because that's not what it is. The stuff I'm not seeing is not supporting your kid. It, it might feel like, and the other interesting thing I want to, I want to throw out is like, I really think it's pretty rare to have parents who don't love their kids. And including bad parents is the thing everyone's like, some of these parents who are like bad parents, like, they're doing a bad job. And I, that feels harsh. And not in sports. I'm more talking about in my job. I think they still love their children. I think it's pretty, it's probably not all that common that you have like parents who like don't love their children or like want the best for them, but other things get in the way. I do think that sometimes in sports, the parent's own issues kind of get in the way of what's best for the kid is where a lot of this comes from. Yeah, and that's good. And I think for not reading the article, you, you had some good insight. I mean, I could assume what their point is, right? Like, you know, and again, like, like, I think pretty much

30:13every parent that I've dealt with, like, means well and loves their kids. Yeah. And, and I think like we said earlier, like, it seems like most parents we deal with are very supportive. And, you know, but as I was kind of reading through this article, because most of what we're talking about is based on an article that I happened upon. And, and I just kind of got sucked into it as a really, really good article. And, you know, it's one of those experiences where you kind of think about, oh, yeah, this would be good for so and so to hear. And, and as I was reading it, I started seeing them describing me a lot and things I've done in the past. So I think, I, I just think that what we're talking about is just good for people to be aware of and be cognizant of. So, yeah. So the, the article we're going to be discussing, it was in psychology today and it's called sports and parenting red flags for over invested sports parents. And it's by Jim Taylor,

31:21a PhD, and he's the author of a book called Positive Pushing, which I am very interested in in getting a hold of and reading. Cause I, this, this article basically is just kind of a snippet of that book. And it, it's got me interested in reading more from this author. So, so I'm just going to start out reading one of the most essential goals in your children's lives as athletes is to have them gain ownership over their participation. They need to feel that their sport is their thing. But ownership isn't just something that they can gain on their own. Rather, it is a gift that you give them that offers so many wonderful benefits to their development as long as young athletes and more importantly, as young people. It is also something that you can take away from them with ease. And he goes on, perhaps the greatest obstacle to your children gaining that ownership

32:21of their sport occurs when you commandeer that ownership to meet your own needs. Okay. Okay. I like that word. That's a fun verb, commandeer, kind of like that. That's fun. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, so we talked a little bit earlier during the quiz about autonomy. You know, this is one of the basic three needs that fosters intrinsic motivation. And I thought it was interesting. You know, he said that it's something that, like he just said, it's something that kids can't gain on their own, which I thought was interesting, that you can't gain autonomy on your own. It's something that, which it almost sounds paradoxical, but it would, the inverse would be paradoxical because you can't, if you already, then you already had autonomy if you could gain it on your own, right? Like, because I was thinking about that, I was like, you do have to have,

33:22that's an interesting point. I thought that was a really interesting point that, and he said, he actually said it's a gift that you can offer your athletes, your children, is autonomy. Maybe you should touch on again, really cool. Can you say autonomy? For those of us who weren't listening to this podcast, 95 years ago, however long ago, but what, probably three years ago now, what, so autonomy is part of motivation. What's your 30 second, like, refresher on that really quick? Because autonomy, doing something autonomously means independently or on your own. If you have autonomy, you're doing your own thing, right? Yeah, you're able to make decisions and judgment calls, and you're in control. And, you know, we gave the example of, like, a McDonald's worker, like, they have to do exactly what they're told. They don't get it. If a Leo fish is made like this, you don't get to add a little bit of this seasoning, because you think that would make it better. They're just there to do exactly what they're told. But like, if you're a cancer researcher, doctor, you know, you have tons of autonomy. You're operating within some kind of, you know, professional guidelines. But like, this is why there's the concept of second opinions in the

34:24medical world, because different doctors are going to decide different things based on this, you know. Yeah. So autonomy is just basically, you have the ability to make choices about your athleticism. Now, what is, so, like, lack of autonomy is when your kid can't know I'm going to push back a little bit. So I participated in mountain biking, not entirely by my own volition, like, not at gunpoint, but like, you know, you really want your kid to do this sport, but a painful and scary sport, like mountain biking is not necessarily super intuitively enjoyed by an 11 or 12 year old. And this is me. And I think this is a lot of parents with their kids. And I do think, and one of the maybe parallels I'll draw here. And I want to say really quick, I don't have my own children. They're like my kids, but I do work with children. Sometimes you just kind of have to force kids to do stuff that they don't want to do. And if you let kids do whatever they want to do all the time,

35:27it's a mess, because the natural desires of a child aren't good for anyone. You have to work within them. And you have to understand how a kid's brain works. But what about parents is like, okay, but I am going to kind of force my kid to ride, kind of force my kid to do this, even though I don't really want to, because if you hadn't forced me to just let me do whatever I wanted, I wouldn't be here. So what do you think the balance is that you're striking here? Well, you know, a couple of thoughts are coming to mind. First of all, you know, like, you get a job that there will be autonomy in the job, but it would be awful to just show up to that job the first day. And they're like, yeah, just do whatever you want, you know, like you would want to show up to that job. And for like the first week or two, they would kind of training you. They'd kind of show you where a few things are and how the computer system works. And, and you know, they kind of get you going. And then once you've got that basic knowledge, then they give you the autonomy to kind of make your own decisions and to do things certain ways. So obviously just showing

36:30you the first day and having full autonomy would kind of be pointless. And it's kind of like you said in that paragraph that I just read is that it's something that the kids can't gain on their own. It's a gift that you give them. And the way I read that is like, you know, we provide children opportunities. You know, we provide the opportunities so they can experience different things and learn different things. And, you know, and this is kind of why it's good for, you know, like junior devo age kids and elementary school age kids to try different sports. And, yeah, you know, to kind of see that's the point I was going to get to is like, maybe this isn't for them then. But I think it's fair for you to say as a parent, like you need to do something physical. I'm willing to play ball a wrong part. I try this to see if it works. And then, you know, and the kid starts liking it, starts enjoying it, starts getting into it. And then I think that's where the autonomy kind of comes in is once they get to that certain point. Right. So that was a really good question. So

37:30and then I did like the questioning asked at the end, are we taking away that ownership to meet our own needs? Aha. So what needs do you think parents are meeting to meet your own needs? What does this look like? Yeah, we're going to get into that. Yeah. So, okay. So, so the article, like I said, it was called red flags for over invested sports parents. So we're going to talk about some of these red flags that we've probably observed in all of ourselves. I think everyone listening has probably done some of these things. And I think particularly it's especially if you have like talented kids, you know, they're doing well that are winning races. I think you're more likely to have some of these feelings and experiences we're going to be talking about. And like I said earlier, I think I'm probably guiltier of a lot of these than most people listening to this. Except you didn't have talented kids out of that.

38:30I'm like, I'm going to turn my deeply mediocre children into a vessel for whatever my own issues are. Okay. So the first red flag, red flag number one is merging with your child. Aha. This is like living through your kid. Is that what they're they're referring to here? Kind of. That's actually another another. This is a little different. What's this then? So merging with your child is so like so all of us want to see our kids succeed. Like who wouldn't want to see their kids succeed? You know, it's it's really cool to see our kids succeed and it's hard to see them do poorly in fail. You know, that's just totally natural. But in the article, they mentioned a researcher named Frank Small and he introduced a concept called reverse the reverse dependency trap, which is I'm quoting parents over identify with their child's experience and define their own self worth based on the success of their children. Ah, okay. I do this

39:36as a teacher. I got some really discouraging test data this last week on on my kids and how much they've grown and their reading ability. And I caught myself being more like, oh, I'm not you like thinking about how this applied to me instead of the more pertinent issue, which is, huh, my kids aren't really learning how to read. Like I took a I subordinated the much more important relevant issue to my own like, oh, how does this reflect on me? And this is in the interesting thing I think parents do. And I think myself too is and that I think the only way I could explain it is that when things go well and like when my kids have good test data or I imagine as a parent, when your kid does X good thing or me, it's whatever benchmark or gets a phone call home because they had the highest test score and they're the best kid or whatever, then you want to be like, oh, I'm so good at what I do and I'm great. But then when your kids sucks and they mess up when your kid throws a chair at another kid, like, you know, children are want to do at my school, then the parents want to exculpate themselves. And like the kids mistakes have nothing to do with

40:39you and kids are going to be kids. But then when the kids grade, it's all you and what, you know, so this is a this is a trick because here's the thing with all of these things is to an extent they're good. I do think you should because and like I'll tell you the flip side of this is, I don't want to say that you don't care about your kid because I don't think that's true. I think it's you'd be hard pressed to find a parent who just is truly like indifferent about their child and doesn't love them. But like some of these parents I'm like, dude, your kid is an unnot on the bike side, but I'm like, dude, your kid is like in a really, really bad place. Your kid's having law enforcement encounters in the sixth grade. Your kid has zeroes in every single class and never shows up. Like, this should trouble you more than it seems to. Or like my wife had one where she was talking to a parent and being like, hey, your kid isn't fifth grade, she's fifth grade and has made no progress in his ability to do math or to read. And the parents are like, well, who cares? Ideally you, right? Like, there's the there's that side of it that you see, but then probably more relevant to us is when the parents like,

41:42when the kid kind of gives up in a race as one that I've seen is like, that's kind of hard for the parent. Like, you could have just kept going and now this sucks. I know I suck because I didn't, you know, like, what have you seen like on this one? I'm interested. Well, um, you know, I would say that kind of all of these, there is kind of a subtle difference between the proper, like good versus the bad. And there is a little distinction that we're going to get to. Okay. That I think is critical. I am saving it, but you were almost were kind of touching. Oh, okay. I'll stop floating with your point then. No. Um, but but really the so merging with your child, there's some signs of that that you might kind of look for and be introspective about. But one is that your child's sport is more important to you than to them. Okay. Yeah. I'm like, uh, guilty. Guilty. Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine this that like when I have

42:42my own children someday, like if they don't, because my relationship with cycling is like borderline religious, like, it's like my own life. Yeah. We, I think we take it a little far. It's more likely than not that my kid will not have that same relationship with it. And that might be kind of hard for me because I'm like, I don't know how to be a happy person without this. How could you be happy? I don't want you to be happy, but how do people be happy without this, you know? Yeah. So that's that's the, that's the first one. And that when I felt a little prick when I, when I, when I read that, um, this one's interesting is, is taking all the responsibility away from them. And, and that's kind of like, like if your kid never has to think about when practice starts or when yes, you know, like they don't ever think about like putting sealant in their tires. You just take care of everything for them. They don't ever have to. Yeah. You know, they just, you wake them up when they're supposed to be ready on right. I mean, and some of that's okay, but I think like if they don't

43:42have any responsibility, yeah, it might not be good. Yeah. There's so much nuance to a lot of what is the parallel in school, right? Is that like that you have some parents where they're like, I don't have any idea when school starts. I don't really know where my kid goes to school. If my kid shows up to school, it's because they decided to do it. But then the flip side, I have kids where I'm like, your parents are giving you like a kindergarten or level of support. And it's kneecapping you like you're helpless. You know, like, like, what do I put here? Well, it says name, like you should probably put your name there, you know, like, like the Goldilocks principle is just applies to all of us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, like, like talking too much about it, like constantly, like, that's all you talk, which is funny, because we, we started recording this podcast before dinner. We went up and had dinner and my wife complained that we were just talking about we just continued doing a podcast at the dinner table. Yeah, we just talked about bikes and yeah, yeah, Jacob's buying a new bike and we just talked about that the whole time. And so, um, and this one was interesting is, is, is coaching your child, which we kind of

44:46discourage, which is fun. Okay. So the exact wording the article used is coaching even when you don't know much about the sport. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's tough. Yeah. Yeah. Like, um, yeah, coaching is a difficult one. I've seen it go great. I've seen it go just fine. I, I think for the most part, generally, I wouldn't recommend coaching your own child. I think being an advisor and a teacher, if they, and like, if they ask for something, you know, but I think if you're writing your child's training plan, and I, I don't recommend it. And in the same way that you couldn't be your kids therapist, there's just certain roles that, by definition, if you're fulfilling your role as a parent, you really shouldn't be able to fulfill a role like that, right? Like, that's not your job. Yeah. I honestly think that like, ideally, you know, like, if you had all the money in

45:47the world, and you wanted a higher coach, which isn't necessary by any means. Yeah. Don't need a higher coach. You don't, you don't see us like pushing that at times. I mean, it's, it's great for some people, but it's not like a requirement to do it. But, you know, if you did have a coach, the parent would be more of like, um, I'm trying to try an advocate for the child, you know, between the coach and, and, and kind of someone that can observe the child that can communicate with the coach, seeing things that they might notice, you know, but if the parent fills that role, it, it just kind of takes away from that relationship a little bit. And I have seen it work a time or two, but for the most part, I don't recommend it. You know, I, I would rather the, the, the child coach themselves, and the parent's kind of like a, a guide and a mentor and a resource kind of thing. So, um, but a sign that you're merging with your child is when you enter what they call the Wii zone. When you say, you know, and, when you say Wii one, or we qualified for state,

46:53or we did this, or we did that, um, you're, you're kind of, yeah, you're, I mean, that's an obvious sign that you're merging with your child. Okay, the second red flag is, and you kind of started touching on this earlier, is living vicariously through your children. And so, yeah, so being excited about success and disappointed about your child's failures is totally normal, totally healthy. There's nothing wrong with that. And that's, that's kind of not what we're really talking about. Yeah. Um, when the difference is, and I think this is kind of one of the key points of the whole article is when you're living vicariously, the focus becomes more on you. It's when they succeed, you feel that you have succeeded. And when they fail, you feel that you're the failure, which is, is, I think, interesting. I think it's also interesting to, and our sport in particular,

47:57you hear the thing all the time when you explain that your sport is high school mountain biking. What is the thing you hear when you talk, when, like, people my age, talk to people your age, they always say the same thing, which is, oh man, I wish I could have done that in high school. There's so many of these parents like, this has been big, I love it, this has been great. Because that's one that I see all the time as parents where, and again, it's, it's great to be enthusiastic about it. But then I think some of these parents either try to have the career they never got to have, again, vicariously, through their kid. But I think the more, the, the other version of that too is that you just, you want to be a good parent, which is good, anything that your kids, however they do in the world is, how you get as a parent, which is true to some extent. But then all of these things circle back, and the same as the week, there's a circle back to you, there's not beyond time there anymore. And the other thing that I want to throw out is if you, if you imagine putting yourself in your kid shoes, when you have, because the wee problem

48:57and then the living vicariously connected, right, you got to put yourself in the shoes of a kid who's going to fail and the additional burden, not just of failing themselves, but that they're failing you. Okay, that is, you, that is number three, right? I actually say, wait, this is why I didn't read the article, I didn't read you. Yeah, you really didn't, like that, that is actually number three. But we'll go back to number two for just a second, because I think the thing I want to really draw attention to is the difference between, you know, just being excited that your kid had a great race and did really, really well and, and disappointed in being sad that your kid had a, a disappointing day and being concerned for your child is when the focus becomes more on you than your child. You know, when it's more about you and, and so, so yeah, I think, I think that's the thing that we need to kind of watch for is, is whether the concerns more about ourselves

49:57or the child. So, which, it kind of blends into number three, which is placing your happiness on your children's shoulders. Ah, yeah. Yeah. Like, you're, that's just a burden your children shouldn't have to bear. Like, you're, you're, you know, if your child's out having a disappointing race, you know, maybe they slide out, they have a mechanical, things aren't going well, they're just, their legs aren't there. Their concern should not be, oh, no, my dad's going to hate me, my dad's going to be so disappointed. And I would say it's not that your dad's going to be angry, it's the disappointment. Yeah. I don't think, because I've, I've heard and maybe even seen parents be mad when their kid has a bad race. I'm like, that sucks, like that, that truly, truly sucks. I think the, the more interesting one to me and the more common one that you see is it's hard to mask your disappointment. And especially when you're, you have to, and like, this has been, I'm still on the learning curve that like, little kids are different. You know,

50:59and like, I feel like I'm not even that far removed, you know, like, I'm 26, my kids are 12, right? So there's about a 12-year gap between me and the kid, right? But like, being not 26 and 12, that's not how that math works. Oops, but you know, you get what I'm saying, right? Like, you know, like, your kid is not going to crush it every single time, mountain bike racing, unless they're kind of a weird kid. Like, learning how to deal with the intimidate, like the, like a Nyko race start is one of the most intense things you'll ever do in your life, right? Like, the first laugh of a Nyko race is this incredible mixture of like pain and anxiety and like chaos and there's people crashing in your heart rate higher than it's ever been. And like, I think a lot of kids like, you can kind of tell they back it off and they get scared and they get wigged out. Some kids thrive, right? Like, some kids love it. But like, I remember for me, it was always like, all these people came here to watch me and I'm not doing very well. And I just, the kid crashed in front of me and I'm losing on my momentum, you know, and like, you know, and really those thoughts just kind of get you out of

51:59flow. You know, and it's not like you, I was, as a kid, I was never worried that like you and mom would be mad at me, but like that you had these expectations and I was failing to live up to them. And then that was like, and that's why you always, it's funny to like, listen to the excuses you hear from the kids because it's always an excuse, right? Like, when they have a bad day, then what's really funny is when the parents start parroting the kids' excuses, I'm like, guys, this is so dumb. Like, these are children at a bicycle race. It's okay to have bad days. Yeah, everyone has them. You know, sometimes your kid, your kid, like, it's not natural for 12-year-olds to want to push themselves to their absolute physical limit. There are some 12-year-olds who like that, they're kind of there, the weirdos. Your kid who would rather be home playing video games than one will get, right? Like, that's, that's okay. It's, it's not, you know, and I do think to an extent, like, this sport does attract a certain kind of person, but not entirely, you know? So I think, like, if you're angry at your kid, like, that sucks. I don't even know how to do it. I don't think that would ever happen. I think that's not the point. That's not really what I think you're right, though, that it's hard not to be disappointed. The thing is apparent, I'm like, yeah, this is where

53:02you lie. This is where you engage in lying to your child, you know? No, but like, you know what, I mean, you put on a face, right? You say, like, dude, it's okay. You know, like, it's, you're, you know, I think if, if you are able to make this more about your child than yourself, yeah, I don't think you have to worry about lying. I think you can, like, I think you can honestly just be glad that your child had this experience and was able to come and race. Yeah. And it's not going to affect how you feel about your child. Let me clarify. Yeah. Choose which truth you're going to tell them, because they're part of the truth might be that, like, yeah, that's a bummer. I think I think he probably could have done that. He got in his head. He made a dumb mistake. He, whatever it was, right? That, like, instead, choose to tell them the truth that, like, I'm proud of you for showing up and trying to do it. You know, like, I'm really proud of you for doing a scary thing. Like, you know, don't even worry about it. This doesn't matter. Next time will be better. You know, like, like, it's like, don't like it. Excuse me. Choose which truth you're going to tell them. How about that? Well, and again, I think the emphasis here is is making this more about your child and

54:04less about you. Yeah. And that's going to happen pretty automatically that you're going to, you know, that really, like, how much you love your child should not be based on the race results and how, you know, whether they have a good race or not. I mean, it's natural to be disappointed, but you were not disappointed in your child. No. You know, and I tell the story about Amy, her, I think it was her, when she was a junior, her Nica state race. And I think she kind of crashed, but she was having a really bad day. She pulled herself out of the race and went to the medical tent. I, someone tracked me down, got me to go to the medical tent. I, I showed them the medical tent. She was just there sobbing and so he goes, are you her dad? I'm like, yeah, and this, this concerned person working the first day. She said, she tells me that you will be very upset about the race. And wait a, wait a throw you under the bus, Amy. Yeah.

55:09And I'm kind of like, oh, okay, obviously I haven't met me. No, that's not the vibe we do here. Yeah. But it seemed like the person in the first tent was legitimately concerned that I was one of those parents that would have been upset that their child pulled out. You know, and so, yeah, we, yeah, we don't really, we don't really go there. So, so when you're overly invested in, you know, I guess some kind of some signs of this when you're, you know, when you're kind of overly invested in your child's racing, you're placing your happiness on their shoulders, results become kind of the primary source of your ego gratification. And your self-esteem becomes dependent on how your child performs. And that shouldn't be the case. That's just not healthy. So, just something to be aware of. And some signs are is like, and these are signs they listed. One was if you're more nervous than

56:16they are. Oh, interesting. Which is interesting because I think a lot of parents kind of feel that way. But I think it's more that we're more nervous about a crash or about them getting hurt or honestly as a parent, my biggest worry is that a kid was going to finish and how to rot in time and doesn't want to ride their bike anymore. Like my favorite thing to hear when my kids finished their races is that they had fun and they want to do it again. And I, I was just nervous that they were going to have a bad time, to be honest, completely honest, was one of my biggest fears. So, I think as parents we get nervous, but we shouldn't be nervous that they're going to have a bad race and it's going to make us look bad. No, and the fear of like the failure, that's a thing I see like less. And it's less of an issue. I, you know, like in my world, I'd rather apparently more involved than not. But like I see the parents all the time when they don't want their kid to fail at anything. And like failing is useful to an extent, right? Like there's certain failures you don't want your

57:18kid to have. There's certain, you know, if your kids, if your kids are laying in the train tracks, that's bad. But like I kind of tell parents at the beginning of the year, like I don't think, you know, because the parents are like, show up at the beginning of the year, the ones who care, right? Which is about a quarter of my parents. And for those parents, I'm like, you know what? I kind of don't want you to check their grades. That's their job. Not especially in middle school, they've got six different teachers. We have five different software platforms. We do stuff on, like it's, you know, let them do the thing. And, you know, and then when I remember one of the parents said to me this year, they were like, they're like, oh, well, if you defeated that, his grades would go under the toilet. Yeah, I know. That's kind of the idea. Like I kind of wanted to have one really bad quarter where it's like, oh, you completely crashed and burned and you learned that the natural consequence of I put my hat on my desk and don't ever turn anything in is that you get a zero, right? And I have the parents, like we're at the end of the term right now and granite. And every single time you've got parents who are showing, I say like loyaring for their children, they're trying to lawyer their way. And you know, they're being the kids lawyer instead of their parent and trying to get them the highest grade they can or the even worse one is when a kid

58:21hurts another kid. You know, we had one like a kid like pushed another kid down the stairs. We had one where a kid said something to another kid that was just like way out of bounds of what is normal for middle schoolers to say to each other. And that's a pretty low bar, right? He'd never say that. He'd never do that. You know, like it's okay for your kid to mess up. You know, it's okay for your kid to have bad days. And I actually think in youth sports, like the bad days are almost as useful to the kid as the good ones. You know, like it's okay. Yeah, you just kind of turn it into a learning growing experience and not a wedge between you and your child. Yeah. I think you withdraw your approval if your kid like hurts someone or has like a really age and appropriate failure. You know, like if your sixth grader is pushing another kid down the stairs, like that's an age and appropriate failure. That's a kindergarten level failure. It's okay to withdraw your approval. It's okay then for you to be angry. And this is the thing with some of the parents. It's funny because some and every kid needs a different thing. There's some kids who need to kick in the pants more than others. And maybe more or less relevant to like sports. But like I can tell you

59:24that like there are some parents are like you need to be giving this kid more love and a fact. I had one parent with this kid. We grade out of four and three means you're on grade level. This kind of like a 3.8. And then we're like we need to get that up. I'm like he has the highest grade of any kid in my class. Like he's fine. You need to give this kid a hug and telling me he's enough. And then there's other parents are like you need to yell at your kid more. Like you know. So I don't know how to change his kid the kid. Goldilocks principle. Yeah. And maybe like I think a lot of things that are complex. It's like it's a dimmer switch right. You want more less. There's almost like spinning a basketball on your fingers. There's like forces coming from eight you know a thousand different directions and to keep the basketball spinning on the fingers this incredible balancing act of all these other. And I guess the other thing too is as a parent you're probably going to mess up too. And for as much as your kid is especially if this is the first time you're doing this is your first teenager. Like I don't I don't envy you. I don't have kids for a reason. Yeah. So I guess the last thing I had on this on this third red flag

1:00:26of placing your happiness on your children's shoulders is another sign they listened they listed is being more concerned with results points and rankings than development. And I thought that was a really good one because we have been talking a lot about athlete development versus performance and and it kind of seems like ranking and points and placement. It's something that's kind of easy to be concerned with because it's it's so concrete you know like but I think I think when it becomes like our biggest concern we're we're missing out on just what's really most important is that that's how we're developing this athlete you know and it's important it can be a barometer and a gauge but it really shouldn't be our main focus. It's hard for it not to be though. It really is. You know and in fact like like on this podcast we like to

1:01:30recognize people as much as possible and it's always really easy to recognize people that got on podiums. You know like I can just go back and look at results and look at some of the and those people truly have worked hard you know and they deserve recognition but and the fact that they're doing well is because they've they've put in a lot of effort you know but I really want help from members of the team to help me recognize people who are just putting in good efforts just like and yeah cool stories cool stories and good efforts and stuff. I know it kind of bugs you when I say this but like truly you're I don't think your pursuit as a parent should be like trying to line your kid up to do this professionally necessarily. There are those kids where that happens but like the results are cool because they're they're indicative that you've done something right which we love like it's not like that's undeserving but like if you the results in and of themselves

1:02:31like I always say like I don't know I could register for a beginner midweek and win 10 races a year right like it's it's the the thing that matters is development and then just push that rational like the rationalization there further is like the athlete development matters because it's the lessons that your kid is going to learn from gaining athletic competencies that make them a better person yeah right exactly that's what matters so yeah and here's the thing I actually do I do think chasing those results and wanting to hit that top 10 of one in qualifier diversity those are all useful goals but the the metal you get is just a metal right like and I know that's such a cliche but it really is true right that like you're like oh okay like that wasn't it was the friends we made along the way except actually right yeah okay so so the fourth the fourth red flag okay the fourth red flag we don't really need to spend a whole lot of time on but it's losing perspective yeah okay and and this one so like recognition is seductive and it's addicting and you know when

1:03:34you start getting read it recognition it's it's pretty awesome and it's very motivating but it can actually interfere with like with intrinsic motivation with having fun with with doing this for health reasons you know when that kind of starts to become your reason that you're getting recognized or your child's I mean I think this one kind of works both ways you know like like you probably might enjoy the recognition that your child's getting and your child obviously is going to enjoy the recognition and that can be cool and that can be so motivating but it can also be very temporary you know and and this is one and we're we're going to talk about this a lot I think next week but it's one that concerns me a lot I want to say I do want to throw out that psych mountain biking in particular is a sport where it's really hard to be on top of it for very long like

1:04:41Nina's shirt is notable because not very many people do that right that like mountain biking if you know when I was following Nike more closely it's like it and obviously the kids are aging out and stuff and even after that like you very rarely have one person that wins forever like it's you a lot of people have a couple of really good years and then you have a couple of really bad years right and then you have like sometimes your luck is worse and some like the recognition isn't always going to be there yeah right and so if you're only riding on the recognition you are time limited and how long this sport is going to work for you exact that's very well said I'm glad you glad you brought that up and one of my biggest concerns is this if this happens at a young age yeah you know one because your maturity level is not the same and you know and and two kind of like Joe said you know like a lot of times you really can't be on the on the top of the game for very long and if that happens earlier than later then you're out of it earlier right yeah I want to

1:05:48throw it with the winner Olympics the the Norwegian skiers were a big I want to say plot point of this year's Olympics and like Clibo who is arguably one of the greatest Olympians of all time now people have been looking at the Norwegian youth development system and it's really interesting stuff because like there's a lot of like it really take a lot of people loves like well every kid gets participation trophy now you know you got to like and I get where they're coming from in that but they point out that like in Norway and a lot of sports like you you're not allowed to keep score in soccer games until the kids are like 14 like there are a whole bunch of these things where they're really trying to focus on it's and especially in the sports like skiing where they're pretty dominant on long-term development instead of you know flash in the pan short-term but it is but it's hard because when it's your kid and especially when your kid is talented I mean if you're listening to this if you're on this team you and your kid are probably more like maybe let's see with the kid your kid probably has enough talent to kind of be good enough

1:06:53for this to be their main sport in a way that you kind of have to be locked into this for neighborhood to be appealing to you like this probably applies to you if you're listening to this that when your kid is good at this and especially when you have those magical moments where things are going really well and have the good races and stuff it's hard to step back from that and look at the big picture yeah like I remember you know Bargolisby one of my idols like his his wisdom runs deep on the bike yes yeah but I remember after Eva won the state champs for varsity one year I remember after Bart said you know what this is a good day enjoy it because it's not going to happen very often it's not yeah yeah this is kind of like the exception you've got to love it when you're getting recognition and things are going awesome and you've got to love it when you're kind of a mid-packed no-name person you know and yeah you know and I think that a lot of that comes down to why you do the sport and if recognition is the reason

1:08:01you're not going to be doing it very long unless you're uniquely talented and this is and maybe my kind of cynical take on this and like if that's what you're doing this you're kind of wasting your time because like this is a really time intensive and expensive sport to dump a lot of resources into for two years and burn out of like if you're going to do that do it with like running or something cheaper I don't know or like or like basketball football where you can actually make a living exactly where you like you could actually like a meaningful scholarship and then have a professional career in this hemisphere you know like it's and I don't want to like I don't want that to come off as like this doesn't matter but like in some ways like it's really truly in the end of the day like what matters is that your kid is a good person and that they are part of the project of making the world a better place in helping other people yeah right yeah right and again I think this sport is uniquely good at that and I think where we live makes it uniquely powerful well and because I do think that if you can do this sport you can do anything oh yeah yeah yeah it's hard no I think I think this sport is I'm still a bike supremacist I think biking is

1:09:06the best right I really really do I will I will argue with just about any sport um that this but like again like I don't I would never be like you know what you really need to make sure you do is make sure your kids a professional cyclist like it's again it finds some people and if if it's for you you'll know but like um yeah it's it's not the point okay so we'll move on to our next one which is our last point our last red flag and this one I think is interesting this is one I've actually been thinking a lot about I've been really excited to talk about this one and number five is overmatching your child oh I have no idea what they mean by that overmatching them overmatching your child that's the term they used and so like when they develop a new product say someone is developing a new spring for a car for Honda or something okay they'll do what's called a stress test you know when they'll they'll have like a machine that'll test this spring out for

1:10:10under extreme conditions for you know like millions of compressions or something I don't know yeah and what they're trying to find is when that spring is going to break so they can know oh okay this is the weak point that we need to reinforce or yeah they are they just know what it's capable of okay you know so they they test it to the point where it breaks so they kind of know how far I can go and what the life expectancy of that part is so that's kind of stress testing and it almost seems like parents like to do this with their athletes yeah see far you can push them before they fall apart yeah it's like you know a kid starts doing well in one area you know and they're like okay they're doing well let's tighten the screws and make it a little harder and then you know they start doing well at another level of of competition and you know they're doing well so let's throw them in deeper and they start and eventually they get to a point where the pressure is a lot higher the fun is a lot lower and the kid eventually cracks you know and it's

1:11:12like why do we have to try to push our kids to that point you know this is like the parent who wants the kid to be in varsity as a freshman is that where we're going with this exactly yes exactly and I'm guilty of that that's probably one of my biggest regrets with Andrew is that Andrew wanted to do varsity as a freshman and his friend Braden Johnson did it too he wanted to do it and I encouraged it and it was awesome that year but it was kind of like eventually racing varsity that many years in a row like it didn't mean anything to him after a couple years you know I really wish I would have just let him maybe do it two years but he was also like a foot taller than yeah if you're coming out of junior you've ended up like a foot taller in the competition so I don't I you know myself up too much but no to your point like and the other

1:12:12thing is I think with a lot of bike kids in particular because like there's there's a correlation between people who are attracted to this sport and like people who are high achievers off the bike too like a lot of our kids are also like shooting get into Ivy League schools and having a four-row and doing other crazy extracurriculars and wanting to go to med school right that it might be appropriate for you as a parent sometimes to kind of like hit the brakes a little bit and be like hey you don't have to be an overachiever at everything you know like it's okay to you know like you don't have to do every single race we don't need to go to there's there's a goalie-locks principle there yeah you know I think another example of this is two is like just parents always wanting their kids to be in a group that's gonna push them yeah and like most the most the group rides I've done I've done with with Brady Preston who is so much a better rider like complete different league than I am good and set it better myself I you know and like the whole time I'm riding with them

1:13:15they're having to wait for me and I kind of makes me feel bad and you're like grown up you're not a 12-year-old yeah 14-year-old who's you know and it's like the whole time I'm like gosh I suck this is this is hard like these guys are they're up they're talking and I can't even keep up with them and and you know but this a couple weekends ago I went to St. George with some of my high school friends and I was riding with them I felt like a rock star you know like I felt like oh man I'm actually kind of good at this you know and so you know like forcing yourself to ride with someone that's like in a completely different league can sometimes just be discouraging if you're in the right headspace I think it's good to do every once in a while yeah it's fun to go off and get your doors blown off by your buddies like I go out and ride with writer Jordan or like you know I go right with you know Riker whoever and just get ripped to shreds but like but if that's becomes like the norm and especially if it's a bunch of teenage boys and their natural tendency is already to harshly compare themselves to every single person and they have no independent

1:14:21identity yet and they're only you know like like that's a lot it's even as an adult it's a lot as a kid it's a lot a lot like it's you know there's a reason that you sort groups the way you do right I do you know and like if someone wants to move because of like a friend or a carpool or something yeah but if I if I get a parent it's like I want my kid to be in the fastest group possible and push them and yeah kind of like no that's I get I it's funny because I go to work all day and just push kids so hard to get them to do anything you know and then I go to mavered practice and I'm like doing the opposite I'm like more often than I'm like cool it off we're good you know like you don't need to you know the the challenge I have with some of my kids is that I'm like I'm like hey no you don't need to write 80 miles before practice dog like that's a lot dude yeah it's funny that and it's individual right you know maybe it's good for some kids but I just don't think it's good for most so I'm going to I'm going to just read right from the article here wanting to fast forward their development is another reason for overmatching your children

1:15:22in our society where achievement is so highly revered and rewarded you may feel pressure to give your children every advantage by putting them on what you believe is the fast track to success this urgency this urgency shows itself in the need to get your children involved with personal trainers private coaches and too much competition at too early an age you may also feel the need to keep up with the Joneses unfortunately you may not realize that development can't be rushed the necessary time and effort has to be put in and your children have to be allowed to develop at their own pace so I thought that was interesting and then he he he mentions a doctor Benjamin Bloom who says rushing kids through interferes interferes with their development it interferes with their love for achievement and it leads to inadequate motivation and skills to be successful later in their development so I thought that was I thought that was interesting I like what the

1:16:24the point it makes about culture and again I just I tie everything back to my job because that's what I'm doing eight hours a day but you talk a lot about like great inflation like you've heard people talk about this right that like when when you know when I was in school like just the normal kid was supposed to kind of have straight A's and the function of the grading system seemed to be how far below an A do you fall if you do fall below an A right and when that grading system was conceived the idea was that a C was average and theoretically the average kid in the middle of the bell curve you know within one standard deviation would have all C's and then maybe a D in the class they were bad at and a B in a class they were good at and if they were amazing at math they'd have an A in that right and we have to use like a zero through four grading system now basically because they're trying to get back to a place where like the normal kid is a three and then you have an opportunity to shoot above that right and I think the problem is that like every parent demands that their kid has A's and I have to fight with parents on this all the time where like the the point we've moved fast with a point was your kid will actually learn something and they

1:17:29got better and the point now is like I think a lot of these parents don't care if the kid learns they care if the kid gets an A because they want their kid to make money that seems to be the fast track in their head right and they they don't want their kid to get in trouble because if they you know like like they they're trying to remove the the whole point and just get to the in parents are trying to skip the and like all this celebrity is getting trouble a few years ago because they wanted their kids to go to Ivy League schools and so they were like lying about their kids being on the crew team do you remember this yeah it's just a huge deal right and so funny is I'm like you don't actually care about your kid getting that education because your kid can't like these kids were not qualified to go to those schools they weren't going to get anything out of it anyway right um and it's funny because like people like well and this is because every kid wants a participation trophy I'm like no I don't think that's the problem I think a lot of it is is coming from a lot of these societal problems and and problems that I'm seeing in the schools come are coming from like the parents being like I couldn't have created a kid who said that I think

1:18:30is what this mom was trying to say to me on the phone like well I'm a good person and the kind of person who would say that is a terrible person and so there's no way my kid said it like that's the math in their head they can't imagine it but I'm like no like and the and the problem there and the scary part is that we want this development for a reason and I actually think this development is it's not just like oh and if your kid can do this it's better I'm like I think this is a necessary part of being a functional adult and and like with this kid I'm like I'm this kid needs to learn this lesson dude like that we've decided that's bad for a reason with this stuff we've decided it is good for a reason and so I don't think the point here is like you shouldn't buy your kid a nice bike if you can afford it and that you shouldn't yeah definitely not and that's kind of where I want because we've talked about I mean these are some red flags that you know I think we all might be a little guilty of here you know we're all human we make mistakes and you know and hopefully I think most of us almost every one of us the the needs of our child's we we we put above our own

1:19:37yes yes I think that that's kind of the default and there might be a few exceptions that yeah and you know and and like we said at the beginning like parental support is I put it up there with like genetics is like something that can be the point of this is not like make your kid ride their bike to because I've had I've had kids before I've coached and like their parents make money and the kids they're on like an eight hundred dollar bike and I'm like dude you can barely ride because they're on this bike that's constantly falling apart and you would be insignificant for you to put them on a better one like what we're not saying is make your kid walk eight miles to school in the snow without shoes on to make them tough but it's also not like you know and it's like without it's like a happy medium but I really like my I don't think you don't you seem confused by but like they're trying to spin the basketball on the finger it's not just like finding a happy medium on a seesaw it's this infinitely complex web of a million different things you're trying to manage and again like I think I think there's some kids who need the kick in the pants like no get out of bed go to school figure it out and I think there's some other kids who need

1:20:41the take a deep breath it's okay that you got to be plus your good every the world's gonna keep on spinning I still love you you know like and so I think well so I would say for me the the biggest takeaway I got from what we've discussed so far is that you know you're you're the sick how your kid performs in a bike race doesn't determine yourself worth no it should be about them and not about you yes kind of how my biggest takeaway from it and we've kind of like talked about some red flags and some things that that we should avoid I I really wish we could do a whole episode on how to do it right yeah but I think most of the people that I know and I interact with are doing it right you know and then are occasionally finding themselves yeah messing up on one of these things exactly but I would say you know if there's a way to do it right that my advice would be one is that our focus should really be on long-term athletic development

1:21:45which in turn will translate into making your athlete a better person yeah you know I think that that should really be the goal is that this the what we're doing shouldn't be viewed in a short term quick bang for the buck type results you know that we we're investing in lifetime athletes you know so that way one bad season one bad race just is a drop in the bucket it really doesn't matter you know we don't need to be Lance Armstrong right like you know like like cheating lying and ruining people's lives to you know like the point of the point of the athletics is to make your kid a better you know yeah I think that's the first thing and then I think the second thing is just really fostering a love for the sport if this is something that your kid you know through you know trying various sports has determined they love it and that they really enjoy it do what it takes to protect that love you know and to foster that love and and I don't know if

1:22:49the term ration it is is the right term you know but but you know you don't want them to to burn too hot then burn out you know but just really protect the joy make sure that fun is a priority that developments a priority um you know and the thing is if you do these things well like winning and getting on podiums is going to happen yeah yeah yeah yeah it's like you don't have to choose between athlete development and not ever winning a race again it's not you know we're trying to do this in a way where you can be healthy develop adequately develop in a in a sustainable way and still enjoy some good results along the way you know what the funny thing is all of doing these things doing these bad things like well this is bad for your kid but you're going to get a 50% of proof performance bump if you've raced your kid every other day and make him you know spend 20 hours a week on the bike like you might get a 10% bump for a sec it's kind of yeah that's the

1:23:49kind of like it's those it's a you there might be a tiny gain to this for a little while but like ultimately it's kind of a win-win it's yeah there's like there's it would be stupid to not do it this way but the problem the problem is it's not um and this is another thing I observed people have a hard time being objective and rational when it's their kids which I get because like you're supposed to the your kids are supposed to be the most important thing in the world do and I think for 98% of parents like you would die for your kid you do anything for your kid right but it's that same like that unique love you have for your kid that also makes it hard to like step back and say like yeah we need to let him fail on this you know like we need to teach him a hard lesson we need to let him be uncomfortable in school right or on the bike to say like I need to for as good you know like I need to put aside the podium side of my kid to be like what does this child actually need from me right now and not what is the bike race or try to get out of the podium need from me right now you know yeah or you know if they if they had a bad race

1:24:53year yeah you still love them just as much and you're not yeah yeah you know they don't have to worry that the you know it's funny actually well and we'll just kind of end on this I remember one time Miles Baker I think he I think as he won his first varsity race and he you know after people are kind of gathering around and Miles sees his dad and he goes hey dad does this mean I get dinner tonight which I love Miles hilarious if you know Miles and you know his dad yeah he's yeah it's it's hilarious so yeah but I think that like no matter what happens in the race unless they like smack to another kid the first thing they should see when they cross the finish line is you smiling if they're crossing the finish line in 38th place and you were hoping for a podium they should see you smiling and if you win they should see you smiling you know like they should know that you love them no matter what and like even when the kids smack some their kid it's important that like you know that they know that you love them no matter what the kid does you loving them

1:25:56is the is important what else we do on top of that might depend situation situation but like um yeah okay I think we've uh is that enough I think we're good yeah was I talking too much I don't know what do you want it was like okay thanks for knocking me off the ladder dad that was a nice way to finish yeah anyway you can do it on your own next week um say how many people listen to that um I don't know it's funny we were talking about doing this I'm like yeah but kind of like everyone who listens to this is fine the parents who like need to hear this their kids usually never get good enough to be on maverick anyway so like they are gonna hear it then there you go um secret word for this week who um how about I don't know I don't have one shocker um shocker shocker I was gonna say autonomy shocker um how about you send whatever emoji you think best summarizes this episode okay actually just send the hug

1:27:02why you just you just undercut me twice in 60 seconds there because first off you failed the sign-off in like a compelling way so I did it for you and then you undercut me and then you failed to come up with a secret word no I got a hug emoji just like just like just like let me finish and then you failed to come up with a secret word so I come up with a fun and novel idea and then you undercut me again I just took away all your autonomy yeah usually all of my it wow anyway maybe yeah just some neighborhood duty come with this so just send me whatever emoji you feel like and I'll have no idea what you're talking no oh hang on hang on we can take this offline I didn't say whatever emoji feel like he said whatever emoji you think best sums up this episode okay because then that you have to think about it and then this I'm like what if they don't like the episode and they send me a if then why would they still be listed then an hour in 27 minutes in why would they still be here all right well send me an emoji oh my gosh okay okay apparently someone didn't parent you very well okay I'm gonna talk to you guys next

1:28:04week