Ep. 97: Getting Used to the Highs and Lows! with Claybourne Elder

0:00Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of From B.A. To Broadway. You know who it is. It's me. It's Mr. Brennan's definite, your host. I'm bringing you those general programming reminders. Folks, every Monday, we are here with our main series, and every Friday, we are here with our mini-series in the spotlight, but that's enough about that. That's not why we're here today, folks, today, for our very first episode of Year Three of the Pod. I am joined by the one and only Claiborne Alder at Claiborne. What's going on? Hi. Oh my gosh. It's the first one of 26, not 26, but we just had our two-year anniversary on Thursday. So this is the first episode airing after that. Got it. Congratulations.

1:00Thank you. That's a long time. That's a long time. It's really wild. It really is. I can't believe, but I'm just really, I'm really grateful about everyone sticking around and more people are joining, you know? Great. Congratulations. Thank you. Claiborne, who the heck are you and what do you do? I am a human being so true. I am an actor in New York City and a writer, and that is what I do. I love that. Claiborne, we of course have maybe seen each other across the street on the back lot of the Gilded Age, but we don't really know each other. So if you consent to it, I have the get to know you speed round. Yeah. Let's do it. I'm going to ask you a series of 10 questions. I just want your gut response answer. I just want to get to the essence of who you are as a person. You ready for this? Yes, I'm ready. Okay. I'm putting 60 seconds on this big digital clock that's definitely very real. And here we go. Morning person or night owl?

2:01Morning. What is the nerdyest thing about you? Oh my God. Everything is everything that answer. I'm a really nerdy person. I love that. Favorite board or card game? Ticket to ride? Oh my God. Settlers of Gets. Ending? Settlers of Gets. So you're a real board gamer. I love that. Hell yeah. Who was raised Mormon? We love board game. Oh my God. Did you rather live in a musical or have your life narrated? Oh, jeez. I know. Have my life narrated. Oh, okay. Interesting. Interesting to do with the songs. I think the songs would get annoying if I was living in a musical. I think it'd be too much room. My thing is, I'm not sure if the narration would be widely objective in my favor, you know? So I'm like, I don't know if I would love to hear that, but I actually, this is a new question because I heard a child ask another child this last night while I was at work and I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. I was like, that's profound in a way that, I don't know. I'm nervous. Jeez. Okay. The favorite reality TV or competition show?

3:01Great British Bake Off only tied very closely with the Great British Pottery Throwdown, which is the one of the greatest tales of all. Oh my God. I've never heard of that. Oh. It's because you can't get the episodes. You have to find them on YouTube. Oh. You have to like, okay. Because they don't. So you're digging for those. Okay. Oh. I'm digging so hard. Wow. It's so good. It's so good. Okay. I'll look into that. There was, I once discovered randomly like a glass blowing competition show on some channel. Yeah. I love it. I was like, that's really fascinating. Yeah. Okay. It's really good. I've seen every episode of that as well. Okay. Favorite season. Fall. Okay. Favorite seasoning. Mm. Wow. Good. Good. It's hard. Well, I like to cook. Vegano is maybe the most versatile. Okay. I love that. A lot of people here are vegano and I don't understand. Thank you. Um. Okay. Uh, bigfoot, real or fake. Fake.

4:01Oh. Okay. Um, uh, trend you want to bring back. Overalls. Okay. Hell yeah. Oh, I guess maybe they are already back. Maybe some people are like, they're, I've been seeing them around. I mean, I don't think they're wildly mainstream. No, I think it is a niche thing that people are doing to be niche. I love that. Yeah. Um, and last but not least, favorite subway line. Well, the one train is my train and I actually don't mind it. I don't mind the one train. Great. It's okay. I love the sea trains because they're nice and they're new, but I hate the sea line. Oh, okay. I would say, I would say the L, but it's so obnoxious. It's 80 and L. I don't know. It's something about the horizontal only that really grinds my gears. I'm like, who do you think you are? I don't know. I always shut down it. I also never feel cool enough on the L platform anywhere. I'm always like, what am I wearing? And why do they think I'm under me? I'm like, I'm just the, the widest piece of white bread ever on this train. I'm so bland.

5:02Really? Yeah. I'm right there with you. Um, you just made it right in the nick of time. Just hit six seconds. Wow. Amazing. I, I, I really know who you are in the essence of your soul now. Um, okay. And then, uh, Claiborne, did you go to school for theater? I did. I had a, we're going to dive into this. I had a complicated, um, education post high school in that because I was raised the Mormon in Utah, you were sort of taught that like the best thing that you can do is go to BYU, the Mormon school. Oh, okay. And no one ever said to me like, hey, you could try to go to a big musical theater school or theater school or, you know, heard. And so I spent my first year of college with the Utah Shakespearean Festival in Cedar City, Utah at Southern Utah University where I made still some of my best friends are from that freshman year of college. And then after that, I went to Russia and studied acting in Moscow for a semester for like seven or eight months.

6:03And then I came back and I went to BYU by then I, like, I had kind of come out and had a boyfriend, but then was like back in the closet as one does in their early 20s sometimes when they were figuring yourself out. And I came from a very, very, uh, religious community. So um, I went to BYU, I got kicked out of BYU for being gay, oh my God. And then I went and so then I had a mentor professor who I had met who was at the University of Utah who was starting a dramaturgy program, a dramaturgy undergrad program in dramaturgy and directing. And so I went there and got my degree from the University of Utah in dramaturgy and directing in dramaturgy. Wow. What a wild journey. Okay. Because again, nerd. Of course. Yes. The fundamentals of the dramaturgy. I mean, a lot of schools don't offer dramaturgy, which is wild. I had a dramaturgy program at my school. Yeah. And they always like also like they treated it like it was such this niche thing and they're like, you know, you're going to be some of the only ones doing this and it's like,

7:07Oh, okay. Interesting. Wow. That's wild. So what on earth is schooling for acting in Russia like in comparison that feels very intense? It was very intense. It was very cool. You know, the thing about it is it's still like the training that I rely on. My favorite part about it is when you are like, you overhers their company and they would like this in many of their acting companies as well. Like they'll be putting on a play and they treat it more, the casting more like opera where like the role doesn't belong to a person. There are like several people that play the role because the play will run for 10 years. That's right. And different people play those roles. And so you learn a role, but you're also learning it side by side with two other people maybe who are all going to share it. And it really, and then you share each other's ideas. And then one day you're doing the scenes with one actor and then the next day you're doing the same scenes with a different actor and you're learning different things from the different

8:10people that you're acting with too, you know. That's incredible. Yeah. It's a much more of a collaborative creation process. And I think that I really liked it and it really, it's still sort of how I look at those things that, you know, like they don't necessarily, characters don't really belong to us. Yeah. We borrow them. It all, I think it also taught me to be a collaborative artist and that I think it taught me to take notes really well because it kind of feels like I'm like, I don't know. I don't know that I have the best idea or I don't, you know, like let's try something else. Yeah. That did something else yesterday. And like kind of the encouragement to steal from each other too that was like, wow, you did yesterday was amazing. I'm going to do it today. Yeah. I also feel like that must take a lot of the workload off in terms of like work life balance and actually, I don't know, not having to pound yourself into the pavement the whole time. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. It's true. Okay. Did you study acting at all while you were doing the Dramaturgy directing program or were you purely on the flip side of that? Well, I had already, at BYU, I had studied musical theater.

9:13Gotcha. So I had taken a lot of musical theater classes there. And so when I, and when I went to the University of Utah, I could either kind of start all over again, really, or choose something else, gotcha, to study. And also I just was really, you know, my acting teacher in Russia totally also told me when I was done there, he was like, Clay, you've studied acting, stopped studying acting, hard, you've studied, go do something else now. Yeah. Like go have a life, go fall in love and have your heart broken and learn other things because otherwise you're going to have nothing to act about. Yeah. And I was like, okay. And so really when I went back, I studied, I was studying mostly like dance at when I was at BYU. I took a lot of dance classes and a lot of music classes, but I didn't, I took like one acting class when I was at BYU. Gotcha. And then when I transferred, I was like, okay, I should do something else. And also, you know, I had also, I haven't had all these other interests that are writing and directing things that I want to pursue those things too. And so just to kind of round myself out more as an artist, you guys.

10:16Yeah. That's also good that that professor said that because I feel like a lot of times, a lot of people will study acting in their undergrad and then say, you know what, I need a graduate degree in acting, but they're really just going for the resources and the connections rather than the education. And it's like, we don't, we don't need to do that. We could be doing so many other things outside of an institution to be proactive about getting those things, you know? Yeah. It's a tricky thing because I like, I believe in higher education, I think it's very important. But also, I think that the most crippling thing you can do to yourself is accept $100,000 in school debt, either in undergrad or grad school. And then be like, I'm going to try to be an actor who makes $800 a week. Exactly. You know, like it's, I think that there have been a lot of people I've seen over the years that like, unfortunately, those things have stopped them from being able to do the thing. Exactly. You know, they get stuck in a, you know, and now everybody's path is different and maybe

11:17your parents have a lot of money or maybe you, maybe it works out for you. I'm not, you know, everybody needs to make their own choice. But I do think that it can be a, like, it's just something you should really think about what you're doing to your future when you are accepting those things. It's also tricky because I feel like you also don't learn the value of time until after that kind of undergraduate time because like, I mean, right before you're in high school and that's your life for you have your little part time job or whatever and that's kind of your only concept and then you go to school and it's just that for four years and then afterwards you finally learn what time can do to you and then you're having to spend all of it working to pay off all these loans and it's like, well, damn, you know, so yeah, it's tricky. And like, I don't know, there's a whole system that I definitely am not going to be the one to be able to fix or what, but yeah, we love it. We love it. We love it. No. Where did the theater of it all start for you? How did that seed get planted? I do not come from a family of artists.

12:20My mom was a writer. Oh, okay. Yeah, she wrote, she was a personal essayist and she wrote, she wrote under an assumed name for like, the paper in Utah, an article about her life and it was sort of like, she challenged, she wrote under assumed name because she didn't want anyone because she had children and she didn't want anyone to know who she was to, and so she wrote this article that was sort of like, it challenged a lot of things about Utah and cultural and Mormonism, she asked a lot of questions and people were mad about it. And I think that that sort of made me very interested in the performance aspect of what that was. Yes. That was sort of a performative thing to be like, you know, this thing is going out into the public. But I studied the violin. I studied the violin for 12 years. I thought I was going to be a violinist. And I had a violin teacher who I studied with who was like, you'll never be very good. Your hands are too big. You should have been a cellist. And that was after, you know, 12 years of studying and I was like, oh my god, I'm not going

13:20to do this anymore. I know. I know. Not the big hands. Yeah, I know. I was like, I was so discouraged and just like, I know, not the big hands. It's geez. Puppy pods. And then that year was the first year I did a musical. My brother had been in like the school play and I saw him in it. And I auditioned and got, I was, it was Oliver. I played the artful Dodger. And I remember like auditioning for it, thinking like I just will be one of the kids. And I got this part and I was like, well, I had to get a part. I don't know. I've never sung before. Why do I think I can sing or, you know, and I kind of didn't know that I could sing okay. And that's how I started. Love that. You're right. Love that. Love that. Love that. Was there pressure to go to college and did everybody kind of know it was going to be for theater? Was that kind of like an assumed thing? You know, I mean, I think, you know, it was challenging for my family, again, not being from a family of artists who were like, you know, they were encouraging it, definitely. But they were not like, yeah, go study theater.

14:21We also didn't have a lot of money. So I wasn't, I was paying for college. So it wasn't like, go explore yourself, you know, it was not an important thing. It was definitely like, but what are you going to do, Clay? I think they still ask that. No, they don't really do really work. But like they, but I mean, when I moved to New York, everything, they were very, again, like my mother was very encouraging. She showed up. They helped me like pay my rent for when I moved to New York for the first few months and stuff like that. Like they really were supportive. I don't mean to say that at all. Of course. But I don't think anybody thought it was possible. Yeah. You know, I didn't think it was possible. And to actually like make a living doing it, it seemed like something I was going to do in my 20s at the time. And then I got to New York and saw other artists and how they live and was like, oh, this is a possibility for a lifetime. Yeah. There's so much, I feel like there's so much pressure and grain to you for like a specific timeline growing up that once you get here and you kind of see how free-flowing things can be. It's like, oh, I got to unlearn a lot of things or else it's just going to be a comparison

15:26game for the rest of my life, you know? Yes, right? Yeah. And it's rough. That game is a rough one to play and nobody ever wins. So. No, nobody wins. No. Did you move to New York right after graduation? So I... Okay, so also in that time period, I took a semester off to go, I was working for a non-profit that started taught English, got you in like rural communities and so I lived in China for seven months. Oh, wow. Teaching at a school across the street from a brick factory and a rice farm. So I fell... I could have loved traveling. I sort of like loved, fell in love with it, probably from Russia. I also was a foreign exchange student in high school. So I sort of was like, I loved traveling. So I did... I took a semester off to do that. So I didn't... I graduated when I was 25. Oh, okay. And then I had saved up money for a long time in college and I did my own version of the amazing race for myself and my boyfriend at the time. I bought myself a one-way ticket to Singapore and a one-way ticket home from Beijing.

16:30And we had five months to travel. Oh my God. That's wild. It was really fun. And I started writing about it. You know, this was like in the time of blogs. Oh, yes, of course. What was your blog of choice? Well, mine... I didn't have a name for mine. I don't think I had a title, like a technical title for my blog. Oh, okay. But it got to be called Seven Bites of a Mysterious Nature because that was one of the first things that happened to me on this trip as I got these bug bites. Oh, my God. And it started publishing this blog sort of and it got picked up by a couple of different like sources and stuff. It's getting published on like these little travel network things. And then one of my first jobs in New York was I met a guy at Splash Musical Mondays who had read my blog. Wow. He was a traveler for AOL and he was like, we should, we're going to hire you. You should, you should write for us. And so I wrote, I like did travel right in a little bit. That's awesome. It was fun. So I moved to New York, I decided like right, I did that for five months and then I got

17:31my equity card doing a summer stock thing. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to move to New York, I'm going to give it a year and see what happens. And I didn't have an agent. I hadn't had a showcase. I'd studied drama surgery, you know, so it wasn't. And I also like, I knew from working in regional theater, I knew some people who lived in New York, but not really, you know, so I got to New York, had an apartment, started going to open chorus calls, I was going to open chorus calls like three times a day. It was back in the time when like, you had to go to the equity building and sign your name on the thing physically, you know, like it was that. And there were like, there were like two or three auditions every single day you could go to. And I was going to all of them, like truly everyone I could go to and working so many terrible just awful jobs, dumb, dumb jobs. And this is truly what happened, like eight months in. I'd gotten a couple of jobs to go out of town places, but I was like, I'm going to stay in New York for now. I woke up one morning and I was like, I don't want to do this anymore.

18:36Okay. I had these like acting friends who we all like, you know, were in line together at all these auditions, who kept track of each other. And I was supposed to show up and meet some friends in audition and I texted one of them and I was like, I'm not going to go, I don't want to. He was like, get your lazy ass out of bed, come to this audition, we'll go out and have lunch afterwards. Just fucking do it. And so I did and everything went wrong. Like I went in, you know, like it was this chorus, Paul, get to sing like 10 seconds of music and they like put you in in a batch of 10, you know, and so I like walked in with a batch of 10 people or was in line, walked in, set my music down, started singing and the guy, the casting director held up my resume to look at it while I was singing. He was reading the resume and the headshots on this side, right? And he was holding up the headshot of somebody else because they had mixed them up in order. And he was reading somebody else's resume. And so I finished singing and I was like, hey, just so you know, that's the wrong resume. Anyway, by, like, you know, like they're not going to, they were like 300 guys there

19:38that he had to see. And he was like, well, wait a minute, wait a minute, let me find which one is you and you found it. And then they called me back and I sort of thought they called me back just because that had happened. They called it being nice. Called me back again, called me back again. And then one day Stephen Sondheim was in the room and I was like, oh, they're serious about this. They called me shit. Wow. They asked me to come in and sing a Stephen Sondheim song. I played Jack in high school. So I'm saying giants in the sky. And I got cast in the show and it was Roadshow, which was Stephen Sondheim's last new musical that he wrote when he was alive. And that was my first job in New York and it opened almost exactly one year after I moved to York. That, you know, that's always how it goes. It's right when you're on that brink of ending it, that, that, that comes through. Universe throws you a bone. Wow. I love that. Is that friend that made you go to that audition, does he, does he still credit himself for all of your success? Ron to Stefano, you know what, I have a, I do like a solo show that I tour around and

20:41I recently, he lives in Florida now and I did the show and I told that story with him in the audience and I had like the whole audience applaud him and I had him stand up and nice. Tough. Yeah. So he's still in the business, but yeah, he, I definitely am like, I owe you a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you first got here and you started getting on that audition grind, did you feel as though you at least had the fundamentals of like how to do the thing? Did you feel as though you had learned that either in school or before you got here or yes and no. I mean, I feel like I quickly learned it. If you get, you can look thrown into the fire, you know, you're like, oh, that's how you do this, you know, and the thing that I made myself do is when I was in line waiting or just sitting around a room, you know, waiting to audition, I was like, I'm going to talk to everybody. I was talking to my friends with everybody and that's where I got my survival jobs. That's where I got my apartments. That's how I got my book and my acting classes I could get it. Like how I learned everything is I was like, I'm just going to talk to everybody around

21:44me. Yeah. And I really do like credit. That was like its own college experience almost, you know, those months of like learning how to audition, learning what to do. Mm-hmm. I'm curious. Nowadays it feels as though there are more people in these studios trying to audition than ever and it is like more and more difficult to get to even get seen. Did it feel oversaturated back then? Though I will say there is a big pre-COVID post-COVID thing that has happened and is continuing to happen. And when I used to teach master classes, I used to teach, well, I still teach master classes, but what I used to teach was I would say like the most important thing is to be buoyant. It should just be able to like take a hit, get a disappointment, and turn around and do this, do it again because the longer it shuts you down, the less chance you're having

22:46it, the other opportunities, you know. And those things are going to happen all the time and that, you know, there's no such thing as making it because it's just all this, it's all up and, you know, like it's all one day you're on the high and the next day you back at your survival jet. Totally. That's one thing and that still remains true, but I will say that like now a days there are, I feel it, and I feel like though people who are starting out feel it a lot more, which is that more people are being cast by offers, more people are being pre-cast, the casting on tape situation is really occult and has made so much more busy work for us as actors who already don't have time because we're trying to survive and work jobs and do things and now you're like adding, make your own auditions. And it used to be that when you would have an in-person audition, you'd only have enough time to see 30 people in a day, 25 people in a day. Now you can be like, have everybody make a tape?

23:47I don't know. I don't want to actually look through the list and consider who I'm going to really cast. Just have everybody make a tape. Anybody who's reasonably close. Now that's not to say they're not watching those tapes and that yes, you could get, you know, cast or discovered from those tapes, but it is like there are, you're being asked to do a lot more thing, you know. And so there is like, there is a shift that is like showing up at those auditions is still very important. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think making your own work, making yourself known in other ways is more than it ever was before. And I don't just meet a social media presence because I don't think that's the thing necessarily. But I do think there are ways, like performances on video that you can send, all sorts of things that you can do to have marketable, you have to market yourself more than you ever do before it feels like to me. Totally. This auditions season in particular, I don't know what it is, but it is like, it's feeling very isperky in my mind where I really feel like we're on this very strange precipice

24:50that's either about to tip one way or the other. And I guess I'm an audition monitor as one of my survival jobs for equity. So I see it a little bit of a different lens. But these calls lately, like we've been having these these EPAs and ECCs and I'm getting through like 140 equity alternates and not even scratching non-union lists for a theater that has five union contracts, you know, and it's insane in that way. And then the EMC program dissolves in May and I'm like, okay, so then that's either, that's probably realistically after this audition season, it's just going to be an influx of even more equity members because I don't think people are going to stay non-union because, you know, there gets bad to join the union just to get seen at auditions. But right now, it is feeling kind of like the only way. And I don't know if it's just these couple of months or what, but it's this very scary ECC song, I don't know what is going to happen where if there's going to be any adjustments

25:54as to what happens either, you know, so it's going to be a learning game. Yeah. And it feels like when I moved to New York, there was a big question of like, do you take your equity card or not? But it was even then it was like, yeah, you have to take your equity card or you're not going to get seen in an audition. That was true then as well. But I think with the way, but then back then, it was still like, you had to work 20 weeks or whatever in an equity theater and then get your, you know, like, it was hard to do. But when it is like anybody can be there, it becomes very, I don't know, it's just like it's just challenging. It's, which is a, I don't know if it's good or bad, but it just is very different. My husband is the artistic director of the Kate Playhouse. Oh my God. Okay. I'm from Massachusetts. Oh my gosh. Yeah. This is his third, this summer will be his third season. Okay. So fun. I've never actually been there, but Ali Farina, who is my favorite person ever was, I was

26:56her. What was it? What was my title? I was her undergraduate advisor in college because I was her senior advisor when she came in freshman year. So thank God for her. She like runs the place. Literally. She's a meadow. She's met up with her a couple of weeks ago and she was here and it's wild to see how far she's come and I'm really so proud of her, but yeah, what a delightful person. She's amazing. Yeah. But he, so it's, you know, like it has sort of renewed my faith in the future of the theater in a way in that, you know, regional theaters are struggling so much right now. We're seeing shrinkages of these huge institutions that we thought were forever are like running on half their budgets now. But like this summer stock theater in Cape Cod, it's like you can't get a ticket. The people love it. They're just like, it's sold, everything gets sold out. The audiences are so enthusiastic and, you know, it's like, it makes me love the theater. For sure. It makes me love the theater.

27:56But point being what I was going to say is that he, you know, like the equity, Ali I think was in town for the equity or the open calls and like 400 and something people showed up. For very few contracts, they were like, this is overwhelming, you know, and it's been like that for all of these major summer stock houses. It's been like that every single call, every single week. It's crazy. And I wonder if it has something to do as well with like, again, post COVID, less people were moving to New York because more people were uncertain of things and now like we're fully back, quote unquote or something like there's more, the younger people finishing college are coming here again, straight away and I don't know, maybe that's, I think it's definitely that paired with I'd, you know, I do think the career education, I mean, kind of the thesis of this podcast is that it is unbalanced in terms of what institutions are giving what and a lot of the times it is the more expensive BFA programs where people

28:57are kind of being given more of a guide as to how to actually navigate this. So I feel like a lot of students are graduating college and then saying, how do I make a career out of this? They hop on Google and the first thing is like, oh, you join the Actors Equity Union and they go, oh, okay, I should do that. I had spoken with a couple of months ago, a student from my, my alma mater who contacted me for some class project and he was like, oh, like it's like, I'm thinking about like joining the union after I graduate. I was like, no, I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not going to do that. Actually, we're not going to do that and we're going to encourage our classmates not to do that immediately. And it's just, I'm like, okay, fundamentally, it seems as though that is just the answer that people are being given as to the first step, which is jarring and daunting in a way. But I think it's definitely explaining a lot of the influx that I'm seeing at least, you know, I think more than ever, you know, I think I used to give this piece of advice

30:00and I think I maybe would more than ever now, which is that like if you're finishing college, the first thing I think you think of is like, and then I move to New York and then I become a struggling actor there until I make it or something. But I think that there being a lot of opportunities overlooked especially now with so things happening in different communities that like maybe you should move to Chicago first and like where you can actually do stuff and don't be equity and get some experience doing some really cool things just for a couple of years. I think the chances of getting noticed there almost are greater than here and, you know, and there are lots of other little smaller like theater communities around the country where you can go and get some experience before and like have something to put on your resume that's not just like, I just walked out of my college campus and now I'm here, you know, exactly. That's the thing. It's like the resumes, I listen, I hold them, I do peak, I'm not going to lie and like

31:06some of them, listen, put whatever you got on your resume, of course, I'm never going to dissuade that but also I'm looking at some of these equity resumes and I'm saying, oh, you know, this is for lack of a better word skimpy. It's a little empty right now and I don't think EPA's and ECC's right now are necessarily as reliable forecasting directors as they used to be because of that, you know. And like even like, even LA, I have friends that are non-union there and they're like, I get seen at every audition, like I can go into the equity building any day, hop in and get seen and I'm like, that's just the market is so different. It's so different. So if there's a place and you have the tenacity to go somewhere else and start to just get some credits on there, do it, absolutely do it. And also, I mean, sort of what I was saying at the beginning, which is like, you have to market yourself differently now, you know, like just having a resume and a headshot in 16 bars and walking in is not going to do it. Like you have to have something to say.

32:06You have to have people want to know who you are and it's that classic like, who you are, your weird things, whatever makes you you is going to be the thing that you really need. And like, I see a lot of young people trying to just like wash themselves clean up who they are just to be like, I can be whatever you want. What do you want? I put on a collared shirt this morning and I showed up. Yeah. And like, I would say not, not, don't offend people, but being yourself and showing your limits and showing, you know, is going to be much more interesting. And also, I will say too that I think that like the acting experience, people can sing really well and I want to see someone who's interesting. Yeah. That's exactly right. You got to figure that out. It's true. It's the vibe check of it all. We are in this age where interpersonal connection is almost more important than talent. There are so, there are so many talented people there are, but also you're also auditioning to be a coworker at the end of the day.

33:07And what does that actually look like? Because casting directors, anyone behind a table, they can smell in authenticity because that is their job. And you know, we can smile and put on our face while we slate and hop into this song that we have sang at three other auditions today and done the same exact thing, but what is that actually showing? Nothing. Yeah. And you know what else? After I'd had my first round of whatever successes things, the first time I really hit a dip, after I'd had some success, like had some jobs, I'd had this dip and I was kind of like, okay, what can I, what am I doing? And I decided that year that I was going to go to every single birthday party I was invited to. And I am not entirely socially anxious, but I am a little like I don't love to go out and things. And it was a challenge for me to be like, and I'm going to do that. And I'm going to go and I'm going to show up to everybody's party.

34:08I'm going to go see their cabaret, I'm going to go do their thing. And I'm telling you, I got so many jobs that year from people I knew, and again, like I'm not saying that's the fix all or that's the number one thing. But it really was like, and I treated it like a part of the job and I treated it like, it wasn't just like, no, I'm going to go have fun. You know, it was really like, no, I'm going to go and I'm going to go meet people and I'm going to go talk to people and it is true. I met so many people that I ended up working with that one year. You know, not again, not just like, and then they were directing a Broadway show and they gave me a Broadway show. No, it was like, no, then they were doing a concert at some symphony and they, somebody dropped out and they needed someone and they were like, wait, Clay, you know, things like that. That's awesome. That was a great way that I kind of got into the movie. Also just, just socially people, go to go to birthday parties, go to your friends' things, like show up, you know, I'm so, it's, it's one, I feel like a lot of people, you know,

35:10people are hiding behind the quote unquote self-care lately in a way where it's just an excuse to be a hermit and I, you got to, you got to get out there. The world is happening around you and you got to be a part of it. Yeah. That's awesome. I love to hear that. Did you kind of have any like moments of reckoning when you entered that dip where you were like, I don't think I'm ever, I don't know if I'll ever work again. Did you have that kind of moment? Yeah. I still. All the time. Everybody is. Sutton Foster is. And Donald is, everybody is, like we are all having that feeling. We all feel it, everybody feels it. You're never going to stop feeling it. Just okay, you have to be friends with that sort of, you know, like, and I would say that you do, like there, but there is a part of you that gets used to it. Yeah. And you get used to the disappointments of it and you're like, okay, I know I can get up and, you know, keep going. And I think that one part of getting older too is really like realizing that you start

36:12to feel like maybe the best thing you did was a long time ago or in, you know, and I think that also there comes a point. If you're going to keep going where you realize that, oh, no, actually my best thing is still come ahead. And I don't know when it's going to come, but it'll be there, you know, and you just have to get used to the, again, this is where being buoyant, I think, is so important is you just have to get used to ups and downs and you have to get used to ups too. Like I have to say ups are just as hard as downs because when you're at the top, you're like feeling invincible and great and like it can go a little euphoric in a way at first. You know, and it's like, it's like often in Broadway shows, everybody says that the Tony's ruined everything. Okay. Well, your cast is and how you interact with each other before the Tony's and after the Tony's is very different because people, things, personalities and change, money gets involved and change, like things, everything changes and it's sort of like, I dread the

37:14Tony Awards because I like it just when we're just all together. Yeah. Oh, damn. But, you know, it's true that like those up moments, you have to really like, I don't know if you, if you have to have perspective because the number of people who've had a Tony nomination or a Tony win and then have been in unemployed for several years is very high. It's very high. Nobody ever talks about that. It can be the worst thing that ever happened to you in a way. I mean, like, yes, it gets, it is obviously a wonderful, it's an amazing thing. But like, say you win a Tony award, it's like great than what TV show are you going to be on? Like what, what next starring role are you going to do? Like, if you go from winning a Tony award one year and then you're like, playing a bit part in a show and a regional theater, everybody's going to be like, oh, no, yeah, what happened? You know, like what happened was I have to have a job. I don't know. You're all working. Yeah. I wanted to get out of this city for a bit. I don't know. They're paying me to do it. Yeah. Come on.

38:15And that can be, that can be winning a Tony award or like starring in a regional show. It can be any level of thing where you're like, I became invincible now at this moment. Because you do and you should celebrate it and it feels great. But you just also have to know that like, there's going to be a downhill. Yeah. And, you know, again, like this is something that people say a lot, but, you know, I chose to like get married, have a baby, live these life things so that when those hills came and when those valleys came, I was like, but I know what, even having a dog, like something else, I care about some other thing that's important to me. People that matter to me that are not this business for sure. And that's so, so important. You know, it is one of those things where you also, you walk into a holding room in the only thing that some people can talk about is theater and it's like, no, there's got to be more. There's got to be more Amy Polar in her book, like biography, autobiography, as I said,

39:17if you chase your career, it's going to treat you like a bad girlfriend. If you chase your life, your career will start chasing you. And I deeply believe in that. Yeah. I mean, it falls along all the lines of everything we're saying, which is like, of course, what else are you? Are you interesting? Do you have things going on? Do you have something to say? Do you have a challenge? All those things are going to make you interesting as a actor in an audition room, all those things, you know, and it's really hard to do. It's really hard to chase your life because you do, like when we love it so much, when you love the thing you do so much, it's all you want to do. You just want to get that it's hard, but it is. You got to remember the reason why you're doing it in the first place and you got to let that joy be the drive, you know? Yeah. Well, anyways, we obviously, we got to talk about Gilded Age. The Gilded Age. The age. No, it's like, I never know in interviews, like, times we talk about it sometimes we don't. You were murdered by a horse. What the hell? I know. It's going down so hard, you know, it's 20, it's, that was sort of, you know, Julian

40:22wrote, he's written four or five seasons of the show before it started being made. So we knew what was going to happen, but they changed, like, it changes offers. You never know, you know, and it did come with, like, as a surprise to me, because I kind of was like, I don't know when it's going to happen. I can't remember if it's season three or season four or anything, but we also weren't going to have a season three because, yeah, like, all the, all the contracts went up. We'd all sort of started, said goodbye to each other, like, I don't know for sure. And then suddenly, like, the Sagu nomination for Best on Sombal came out and then they were like, wait, we're going to, we're going to do, we're going to keep going. So, yeah. Yeah, it's been incredible. I've loved it so much. It was great. Three seasons, five years of my life, you know, because of COVID and the writer strikes and I loved it very much and loved the people very much and can't wait to see what happens. For sure. Did you, was that a kind of different transition at all in terms of, like, stage-to-screen

41:24and that kind of environment specifically? Yes. You know, I had spent time on one other, I was on the carry diaries, the second season carry diaries, right after my Broadway debut. So it was like earlier in my career and it was the first time, the first time I'd ever been on a TV show, I was like a regular, I wasn't a regular, but I was a recurring cast of, you know, like, yeah, I was in many episodes of the second season. So it was like, oh shoot, I have to figure out how to do this on the job because I've never done it before. And so, Gilded Age felt like at least I knew what I was doing. It felt like I went into Gilded Age, which was fun. But yeah, it was like, it is, you know, TV and theater acting are very much the same. It's just like, it's the same toolbox you're just using it differently. And there are additional things about acting on camera that you have to think about, which is like, the camera catches every single thing you're doing, every move, every glance of your eyes. And it's like, you can't be thinking about any of that.

42:25You just have to train yourself with the technique of stillness and like not, because you can't obviously be thinking like, don't move, don't blink because you look crazy. You do have to teach yourself to do it. The ADHD nightmare. Yeah. But you have to teach yourself to do it because it'll, because it's not a compelling performance is not usually, but on, you know, obviously on stage, nobody sees any of that stuff. So, yeah. It's just, there are different things about it. And I like both kinds of work, but there's nothing like being in front of an audience. Like it's for sure. For sure. No, I totally, I'm right there with, yeah. The field of age is interesting though, because it is, they have assembled a cast of so many stage actors, so many of our favorite people from the stage. So it does still, it still feels like a little bit of a different environment, you know? Yeah. Which is, it's really nice. Yeah. Which is really like, it's, you know, was, was very on purpose. Michael Angler is a theater person.

43:26Like he comes from theater and then he be, he's not technically the showrunner, but kind of was the showrunner of the show for the first couple of seasons at least. And he was like, I know that theater people can handle this language. And in fact, the first read through, we did of the first episode, Amanda Pete, was playing Carrie Coons' role. Oh, who is not a theater person. And I remember being like, she sounds very modern. Like she was, I, she's an incredible actress as well. Yeah. It was like, she sounded very different than Kelly O'Hara and Donna Murphy, you know? Yeah. Carrie Coon came in with this like voice in this way about her, you know, that I think has been so incredible. She's so good. It's so dumb. Oh, good. Did you see Bug? Have you seen Bug? Yeah. A couple of the fun then just went and saw it last week and it was, it's crazy. It's crazy. It's insane and she's good and it's so different, you know? Yeah. But yeah, it is like, being on set has been like theater camp, you know, even it's like

44:28everybody I love from the theater is there and I've gotten to, like, even if you don't know them, you've have mutual friends or you've worked together in a concert before or something. So we all sort of know each other, you know, which is super fun. Like it's telling me. It feels, and those, you know, the other thing that I say a lot to is those sorts of sets in New York, a lot of the New York sets I find to be very broy, especially like lawn order FBI. Most of those, they're so broy that I sometimes feel uncomfortable. Oh, yeah. I feel a little bit like, you know, and also they obviously know you're a Broadway person usually. Like they'll be like, oh, you're like a theater guy, aren't you? You know? And they're like, they treat you a little bit like an alien. But Gilded Age is not like that because we're all theater people and it feels very like even among the crew, it's like they're all, they're not theater people, but some of them and yeah, everybody knows who they're working with, you know, and so it's very comfortable.

45:29It's just a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of shenanigans and it's welcomed too. So, like costumes and, yeah, and not looking forward to getting back in the collars though I mean, for a long day, my neck is scared, but we got to do what we got to do. It's the time. It's the beginning. Good times. What's the dream for you these days and how has that changed over time? You know, the dream is I just want to work. I just want jobs. I want to keep working. I love it. And I, you know, I've found like, since becoming a father, I finished, I did the last show of Broadway show I did was company, which had like three years ago almost or maybe more. I think it was like three years ago, something like that. It was in the summer when we finished. And at that time, I was like, I looked at my son and I was like, you're a different kid than when I started a company and I sort of myth. And I know a lot of Broadway parents who are really, like, do Broadway shows and our

46:32parents and they're very great at it. But I at the time, because I was working on Gilted Age especially, I was like, you know, what if I just, I'm just going to do Gilted Age, I'm just going to do that for now. I kind of took a break from theater a little bit, just for a couple of years, you know. Of course. And I've really enjoyed it. And in the interim, I wrote this solo show that I started touring around that I was like, oh, I'll do it at a couple of places. And now two and a half years later, whatever, I'm still touring it around, you know, a couple of weekends a month. I'll go to some place to do it. And I love it. And then I made an album. The album comes out April 3rd. Amazing. The music, which is really exciting. But that I have found like such an extreme joy in, I love doing it so much. And now I'm starting up again, like I'm doing Wild Party at City Center. We start rehearsals on Tuesday, start rehearsals next week, which would be very fun. And after that, I'm doing something at Carnegie Hall for like a PBS thing. Oh, amazing.

47:32Yeah. And then I'm directing Putnam County Spelling Bee at the Kate Playhouse this summer. Yeah, you are. Very fun. Oh, I'm so excited. It's one of my favorite shows of all time and Iraq. So I'm kind of like getting back into doing workshops and doing readings and things. And you know, an auditioning for TV and stuff, you know. And it's like, it's like I'm very busy and not busy at all. Like sometimes I'm like, oh, what am I doing? I'm not really doing anything. And I'm like, oh, I'm about to start rehearsals for a City Center show and then you have an album coming out. And I'm doing a series of concerts at 54 Below to release the album, April 3rd, 4th and 15th. Great. Oh, yeah. I am doing a lot of things. Yeah. But because I'm like not working on a show that's going to Broadway or like working on a TV show. It's like shorter term projects, you know. Totally. Yeah. But I don't know what's the dream thing. My dream role is, I partially because I studied drama, Turgy, I love new work. Oh, okay. You know, like, so my biggest dream role is the one that's being written right now that

48:36I don't know. I want to work with a, like I love working with a playwright and asking them why they're doing things. You know, I was part of Star Struck, The Musical, The Indigo Girls, and it's happening right now out of the playhouse. And I couldn't do the production because of Wild Party. But like, that was just the best. I had the most, like, that was just like working with a bunch of friends and that was a joy. And so I don't know, we'll see what, we'll see what happens next. Tell ya. I love that. Okay. Um, we're kind of getting to that point, Claiborne, do you have any other words of wisdom you would like to share or any advice for the young Claiborne's out there? Yes. I do. Well, one thing is, I have this nonprofit, it's called City of Strangers. It started during company, there's sort of this crazy story that happened to me where I was reunited with this person who would, generously as a stranger, bought me a ticket to a Broadway show. Anyway. Oh, wow. I've told the story a lot. I was in life and I was on the Kelly Clarkson show talking about it.

49:39There was a period of time when I started the nonprofit that it kind of, that story kind of got out there. Yeah. But being, what we do is we're sort of like two things. One, we try to send, like, foster a sense of community among people who are new in New York. We also give away tickets to Broadway shows. And amazing. Um, it's like, and they're not free. They're purchased by a stranger who wants to do something nice for people. And there's really no limit of who can do it. The only thing you have to kind of commit to us is that you are a person who maybe couldn't afford to go to a Broadway show otherwise. Understand. And we're never going to know if you're telling the truth or not, but I hope you're not lying. You fill out a Google form telling you know, like when we do these ticket giveaways, but you can find us at City of Strangers, NYC on Instagram or cityofstrangers.org. And if you are a young person who's in New York who is, who can't go see a Broadway show, who will buy you a ticket to a Broadway show, um, and also then we're providing opportunities to like meet like have talkbacks with the cast members or the writers of some of those

50:40shows and things like that in the future. Kind of once you're in the City of Strangers family, yeah, we find ways to get you involved. So go find that because it's just a good way to meet people and absolutely like that. That's amazing. I love that. Yeah. Okay. I heard it here first folks. There we go. Um, everyone get out there. Start doing the thing. We're rooting for you. We are your biggest supporters. And you can be our biggest supporters by finding us on Patreon, of course. That is patreon.com slash be a Broadway. Your general disclaimer, we are not gatekeeping any vital information on there. That is just for fun, silly, stupid, bonus content, little looks into the lives of the people I bring on the show, audition horror stories, all of that jazz, no educational component involved whatsoever. So get on over there. Really fun community. Good time. As always, you can find us on most social media platforms at be a Broadway, Claiborne working folks find you if you want to be found.

51:40They can find me on Instagram at Claiborne Elder. That is the best way. Amazing. Um, thank you so much for being here. This has been. Thank you for having me. Absolutely delightful. And you are welcome back here any time. Thank you very much. And until that next time folks, bye. From B.A. to Broadway is created, produced and edited by Brennan Stefenik, Music by Dylan Kaufman, and Cover art by Jordan Vong Seafy.