Ep. 94 Building Community, Belonging, and Sustainable Support with Miryam Kabakov

0:00Sometimes the most powerful nonprofits begin with a deeply personal experience and a realization that others are facing the same struggle. But how do you turn that experience into a community, earn trust, attract funding, and ultimately create lasting change? Today's conversation is about belonging, courage, and what it takes to build an organization around a need that others may not yet fully understand. Welcome to Money to Give, with me, Rick Pack, the full Anthemy guy. With over 20 years in the nonprofit sector, I have seen hundreds of millions of dollars transferred from donors to nonprofits. I have learned a lot along the way that I want to help convey to you my loyal listeners. In this podcast series we talk about one, how nonprofits can most effectively showcase their mission and vision and raise as much money as possible. Two, how donors and potential donors can make the greatest impact possible in the world. And three, how professional advisors, including philanthropy advisors, can offer the most

1:03up-to-date information and services to their clients. So join us here each episode for more of that giving feeling. Today, I'm joined by Miriam Kabaakov, co-founder and executive director of Eshell. An organization creating community and support for LGBTQ Orthodox Jews and their families while working toward greater understanding and inclusion within Orthodox communities. Miriam's own personal journey helped inspire this work, which has grown over 15 years into a powerful network, a support, education, retreats, and community engagement. We'll talk about the importance of belonging, the challenges of funding a highly specialized mission, and why nonprofits sometimes need to keep investing in what works, even when the funding hasn't caught up yet. Let's begin. So Miriam, tell me about Eshell and why did you start it?

2:05Sure, so thank you so much for having me and being open to hearing my story. It's a very personal story. It started that way. And now it's the story of many people that we work with. So it's validating for me to see my story played out over the past 15 years through Eshell's work. And when I started Eshell, I thought maybe 15 years will be done with this. And it just keeps happening and reoccurring. So I'll just say that for me coming out in Orthodox community was a very terrifying experience. It's not an easy thing to do when you are coming out to people who you feel like will reject you. Your relationships will change. Your family will change whether they are still open to being in relation to you or not. And it's scary and it's something that you can't really do alone. No one should ever do it alone. So a very big part of what Eshell does is create community.

3:07So we've a very big peer support community between Orthodox LGBTQ people so that when and if they decide to tell their families about their identity that they will have another family to as a safety net or another support system. But the work that we do is to actually lay out that foundation in the Orthodox community through synagogues, through families within and through their leaders in educating and helping them understand what it is like to be LGBTQ and Orthodox. So that they can actually make a place for their people in their community. So just like the person that the person was yesterday who they were yesterday is still who they are today after coming out. So I didn't want to feel like I was the only one. And early on in my journey, I was lucky enough to stumble upon other communities of people like myself.

4:08And it was only with those people that I could really survive this journey and have a strength to do the work that I'm doing today. So building community is a very big part of what we do. And often the doorway through which people enter is our warm line. We have a not an emergency 911 type of thing, but like sometimes a lot of times people call and we're the first people that they tell about their identity. Before they tell their family. Before they tell. Okay. Anybody. Okay. Wow. And sometimes it's a text to the warm line. And sometimes it's just like an anonymous call. They won't say who they are where they're calling from. Up until a short time ago, it was sometimes on a pay phone, believe it or not, you know, in communities where, you know, whatever people didn't know, have the technology that they needed. So that is often the way people enter our community. And then we work with them to the point where they can actually connect to one of our support

5:10groups. So we run about three to five support groups a week. And most of them are online. And we do have a lot of in-person events in New York City right now. And that's been a really big initiative, thanks to the help of the UJ Federation in New York for seeing that we have a very, very large population there are people that need to be in community. And as we learn from COVID, online is amazing until you actually really need human contact. And so we actually give people that opportunity. We do have chapters in other cities. But one of the biggest things that we do during the year is we run large-scale retreats so that when the person is able and ready to come to be in a place with many, many people, they will come to our big event, you know, and it's somewhere far away from everything else. And people's identity is very confidential. We never let anybody else know outside of the retreat who's there. And they come and they see this whole like giant family or this whole small community or

6:15large community of people that they could never in their lives have ever imagined existed. We sort of think of the hour treats and our big events as like that's like a coming home for people. So those are incredibly important. And you know, we seek funding for those. We've been doing them since before. We had any funding whatsoever for them. And that has been an interesting journey in and of itself. So maybe I should talk a little bit about that piece of it. Yeah, please. I was going to say you can talk about anything you like. And also I was thinking about getting that early startup funding because it sounds like you've definitely tapped into something that started out as personal and then you realize there are so many other people that need the same type of service and connection. And so I just can tell immediately from our conversation that you are providing an amazing service for so many people who are struggling with the same types of issues that you are struggling with.

7:16Thank you. What I'll say is that the way A.S.L. started was actually by doing a retreat. It was just like a call for whoever's out there or come to this place will be together. It'll be a safe place for you to be. And we didn't know who would show up and we sold out the retreat space. There was about 120 spots and it was full and it's been full every single year since we've been doing it for 15 years. And we've grown. There's like, you know, been more people coming every year. And there are 30% of the people, 35% are new, 30-ish percent are between the ages of 20 and 30. And it's just a constantly regenerating community. So there's something about that. Is it also a community of people who not only are struggling with this themselves and revealing their identity, but it's also people who support them or is it only people who are showing up that are working through this themselves? Yeah, so good question. This is only for people who are self-identify as LGBTQ and Orthodox.

8:22We've had the occasional ally come for different reasons, but it's mostly just, you know, us. And the reason for that is like everybody who's there needs to feel in some way equally vulnerable or like they have the same thing at stake, you know, for the purposes of keeping it confidential and, you know, honoring people. So not everybody can understand what's at stake unless you've been in that place where every single thing that you have in your life is on the line until, you know, you know, if you come out, you could lose so much. So that's part of why we keep it that way. Hmm, that makes sense. And when you say it's growing, you said 120 and it's growing to larger numbers. Yeah, so this year it'll be, we actually finally moved locations. We've had the same location and we've tried to put as many people as possible and we just decided let's just move in. So we're in a bigger location right now. We're up to 150 and we have a wait list.

9:23And so there's not been a place large enough that is confidential enough. So like we can't just rent a hotel in some place and have other people walking in and out. It has to be really a private kosher retreat space where we can do our religious thing, keep Shabbat, you know, do all the midsfoat, all the things that we do together for that weekend and have not a single other person there from any outside. So that's been some other restrictions. But you know, if we had more funding, we would actually be able to maybe expand and like rent out a whole hotel. But we don't, you know, that's just right now that's not in the cars for us one day, hopefully it will be. So you do want to grow bigger. That was the question I was going to have is you do want it to get bigger. But you also want to maintain all of the elements of what's made the successful so far. So in other words, I'm just going to make this up. If you got to 500, it would be okay. As long as it maintains that sort of intimacy and tradition and spirit in which you're creating things so far, right? Correct.

10:24And I think the need is there. And I also think a barrier to inclusion is the cost. You know, we cannot float this by ourselves. And you know, I've been to a lot of, you know, events, retreats, conferences in the Jewish community where there's no barrier like they'll say, you know, you can come for free, you know, or, you know, and that to me is like, what a, what an incredible gift, you know, that I don't have to think twice about whether I can afford it. And that's been a big barrier for, for the people who attend and for us and we, we're very heavy scholarship, you know, program. But it's still, it's expensive. You know, what can I say? These things just cost money to us and to the retreat site. And we try to prevent that from, you know, becoming the burden of the person who really want, who really, really needs this. Okay. So that, so that was the first thing that we did have this big retreat, just to sort of test the waters who's out there, what are the needs. The second thing that was our mandate was to create a speaker's bureau of people that

11:25would go out into the orthodox community to tell our story. Because we believed that if we could just tell our story, people would just listen. Our hearts would open, they would open their doors to us, we would get funding. And we did a whole speakers training. It was actually quite wonderful. We still have people in our community who are able to tell their stories and go out there when we need them to. But what did happen was that we weren't getting the bites from the orthodox community. We just, they were just like, no, you know, no, thank you. We don't really want to hear about this because then we might have to do something about it. And we don't really want to acknowledge that this is an issue. Okay, so that was, so that was a program that we tried, you know, a lot of what happens in nonprofits is there's a lot of, you know, trial and error, you know, and you learn from your errors. And so what we learned was with, on the funding side of things, is that we weren't going to get a penny from the orthodox community. We were not getting any funding from the LGBTQ community because they didn't really

12:26understand our struggle. It didn't really make sense to them. Similarly, the non orthodox Jewish community did not understand. They would just say to us, why on earth would you want to remain orthodox? And we can't fund something like that because it doesn't make sense to us. And we don't really believe in orthodoxy if they're going to reject you. I see. So we had to like, we had to like make the case like actually, you know what, this is how I was raised, this is my family, this is my community and no one gets to take that away from me. And so that was our funding whole. No LGBTQ causes funders, no orthodox funders and no Jewish funders. I mean, those were our three audiences. Yeah. And it's so ironic too because you think that each of those audiences would say, well, we're not going to necessarily foster or create an environment that you're going to. So we're happy that you're doing it and here's some money to support what you're doing.

13:28But ironically, all three of these organizations that have a direct tie in one way or another to you and what you're doing, we're saying, no, that's yours to take care of. You're on your own. Good luck. And it's so, I can imagine it must have been so perplexing and confusing and frustrating when you have, you're striking out three times with these three audiences. Yeah. And so that's what's going to be. And the truth is when I want to give charity, right, I look at some organizations, exactly what you just said, Rich. Like, okay, you're doing that great. That means I don't have to do it. I don't have to start a nonprofit to do that. I'm going to help you do the work that I believe needs to get done in the world. So, okay. So how did we finally break through? We were advertising, you know, some, we had some press in the Philadelphia community, I believe it was. And a funder saw what we were doing and she reached out to us and she said, I did what

14:33you're doing, but I did it in the Christian community. And I really, really believe in what you're doing. Didn't affect her personally. You know, she has a family foundation and she said, I want to fund you. And that was like, what? Oh my God. And it was like, wow, where did you come from? And so we just felt so incredibly blessed. That was one of our largest foundations to start us off. And we were really able to take off with that. And they have been consistently our donors for the past 15 years, you know, steady and supportive and really just believe in what we do, but not from either one of those communities, none of those communities. No, but it sounds like what they did was they said, we identify with your struggle. And so that's what's giving us the motivation to help you where the others clearly couldn't identify with your struggle. And therefore, we're not able in some sort of amazing way. They weren't able to give you the funding that you needed. So you found it through somebody who struggled in the same spirit that you'd been struggling

15:37with. Exactly. She really, really got us. And that's part of fundraising strategy is just letting people know that their struggle is art, your struggle is their struggle. And we're not so different. And so that has been really an important lesson for us. And then as we grew and started branching out and reaching people in their heart and in their home in the orthodox community, that is when we started getting individual donors from the orthodox community, but also the Jewish community in general started to recognize the work that we were doing was life saving and no one else was doing it. So that was the start of getting some foundation support from the Jewish community and from the federation. And we're hoping to continue in that vein and grow. And just if the Jewish community internally is strong, they were all strong as a people.

16:42It sounds like those initial communities that were rejecting you from a funding standpoint had to actually see the work and progress and the impact that you were making personally it sounded like before they said, OK, now we understand. Now we see how you're, but on the concept alone, they weren't quite ready to be an early adopter or an early funder. It was almost once you've proven, almost like proof of concept that we know that we can provide some great support to this community. Once people started seeing it actually happening, that's when they seem like they're stepping forward and giving as individuals. Correct. That is pretty much what happened. And I imagine from a funder's perspective, any funding you give is a giant risk, right? It's a leap of faith. I believe in you. I believe in your mission. But will you be successful in doing anything about it? And that is of course the question that we had for ourselves.

17:42What is the magic bullet? What is the key? What button do I press to open doors in the Orthodox community? And there aren't any. We just have to keep trying over and over the different ones. I mean, there aren't, there's no one and there are many. I should say it that way. And we've been really successful in finding those places. But I'll say that the other challenge to our work is that a lot of what we do is internal and it's private, it's confidential. For example, we have our project called the Welcoming Shows Project, where we've had a dialogue with over 300 modern Orthodox, not just modern, congregational Orthodox rabbis across North America. And we promise them that just by having this dialogue with us, their names will be confidential that they participated in this project. But through the dialogue, often something will happen. Like they will have a different way of understanding our population.

18:45They will have a shift, you know, a perceptual shift in this problem or this issue that something I think is a problem. Maybe it's actually an opportunity to reach more congregants. And so we can't really advertise who's on that list. But what we also do with it is we match people. So we have LGBTQ people who come to us and say, I want to move to a certain place or I want to go to a synagogue in X City. Can you tell me which one will be safe for me? And in that way, it's been an incredibly successful program. So that's, you know, one example of, we haven't been able to like blast out loud all the things that we do. The other thing that I wanted to say. And you wouldn't want to for I think for the reason you just said, because if you can sort of give people the lay of the land and say, these are the safe places and do it without putting it out there for all to read because once you say, well, this is a safe place than somebody else who isn't so favorable to this community would say, oh, well, I know they're going

19:50to be there. So maybe I go and wreak havoc over there or something and you create an unsafe place. So it's almost like this internal once you're part of this group will give you the information you need to know, do the thing, help you with navigating through this as best you can. But if we went public with a lot of this stuff, it would just ruin that safety element. Exactly. Exactly. And then people stop trusting us that they can come to us. So it's been this the real balancing act of like privacy and also trying to get the word out about what we actually do. But unfortunately, unfortunately, certain things actually catapulted us into the mainstream. For example, the year that there was that horrific massacre in Orlando massacre in the bar shooting in the gay bar. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was a Florida. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And so this pulse, right?

20:51I think that was the name of the bar. Yeah. And then we had a lot of people in Orlando, right? So after that, we had this like influx of Orthodox allies reaching out to us. And it was right around the time, you know, close to a gay pride parade. A bunch of people wanted to march. Orthodox allies wanted to march in the gay pride parade because of that. And so they reached out to us because we were the address for that. So like horrible things happen and then unfortunately, you know, and then we hear from people. Another example was we did this weekend on the Lower East side where we had a synagogue host us, which is unusual for an Orthodox synagogue to host us. And that synagogue fell under the scrutiny and also was kind of like ex communicated in the other in the community of other synagogues in that area. And so the head of the UJ Federation, that time noticed what happened that that rabbi and that synagogue kind of got kicked out of the Orthodox community that they're in because

21:51they hosted us and noticed it and wrote up, you know, about what we do. And after that, we were receiving a little bit more funding from the Federation, which was nice. But it's like from these like negative things that have happened to us that have put us in the limelight also. So. Wow. Yeah. It sounds like with this group that you feel like was marginalized, they were marginalized before they had you come. So in other words, it kind of goes back to we were saying before the theme of we know what it feels like to not feel included. And when we see another group that doesn't feel included, we want them to get the support they need. So it sounds like they were able to host you. Like you said, it's unusual, but not so unusual in the sense of they didn't feel included in their own community. So they knew what it felt like to be marginalized. They know what you felt like to be marginalized. They include you. Yeah. And so technically by including you now, you become accepted by these other organizations that just prior were not that favorable to you. So it's it's almost like this interesting tapestry of one on one or individualized relationships

22:57that build trust and then make you more accepted to organizations that might otherwise, but not otherwise accept you. It's very interesting. Yeah. Exactly. Sort of like who who who's who's with who like who is you know, getting together and working together and sometimes that's, you know, can be set to an organization's detriment maybe initially, but ultimately I think it's to their benefit. Because if we're all sort of like fighting for the same thing, you know, whether it's inclusion or, you know, greater acceptance of differences, then, you know, we can only do it together. You can never do anything alone. Right. And so that's it's true. Like, yeah. Wow. So fascinating. So so the early start up funding that you got, did you feel like you were starting to get to the point where it was the funding that you were looking for? It was still not sufficient or were you getting more than you expected to get once you started to get some traction? I think that in the beginning, it was like a very wonderful feeling of like, oh, we

24:04actually are here. We can stay like we're here. We can keep doing this work and we will strategically grow so that like incrementally we'll be able to increase our funding and increase our staff. Like right now we're up to like 15 people who work at A. Shell, whether it's full time, part time or it's consultants. And in the beginning, it was just like three of us, two of us, you know, starting off. So it's like, it's been like building blocks with each grant. And I think with some of the funding opportunities, it's in the Jewish community anyway, it's like get in line. Like, you know, you just have to wait for your turn. Like, you know, organizations are, you know, we'll get funded, but sometimes it takes a long time to like get the attention of a foundation or a donor and, you know, but I trust that eventually people will notice what we're doing and understand why it's important for us as a community at large.

25:05And we have been getting thankfully, you know, grants from foundations and one or two in particular have increased very nicely so that we can feel that we are going to be strong. But you're never like, you can never be 100%. You know, everything is always like, it's always every year. It's just, this is the nature of the nonprofit world. It's like you're always on alert. It's always a little bit of a struggle. And you know, unless you have an angel donor, even people with angel donors can't trust that there will be a complete future for them. But we were not born with a silver spoon or a knife like that's where I think about, you know, some organizations start with a donor that has a million dollars in their like, I'm investing in you and your idea. Go and do, you know, this idea. And as you always the opposite, you know, he started out with like zero. Yeah.

26:06Well, it sounds like so I was going to break that down around funding. So you mentioned grants that you're receiving, I assume, from foundations, individual donors. When I think about the pie chart of donations in the United States around 75% is from individuals around 17% or so are from foundations and 8% are from corporations. That's $600 billion donated in the United States in 2024. What would you say roughly is your mix as far as diversification of income? Okay. Um, we've not ever had any corporations fund us. Okay. I love that. That would be great. But so for none, I think I would say it is about, and I have to really check back with you maybe on this, but I would say it's about 60, 60, 40, you know, or 65, 35 foundations and

27:08individuals. Okay. So 60% or so are foundations, 30% or so are individuals. Yeah, I might say that. And then, you know, we have some, some program income like we have to charge for our events and all that. So that's, you know, that's our budget. But yeah, I would say roughly, I might be off a little bit, but um, yeah. I look at it as you have some opportunity there. If, if in theory, the most of the money in the United States comes from individuals and that's still a smaller percentage of your pie, then I suppose if there are ways to increase that and have more individuals give that's statistically, you have a good chance of that happening for you. Yes. Okay. Good. I like how you're thinking. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, we have a very niche audience, very niche, you know, population with issues that are universal. So, you know, maybe that's why it's like that right now, but I think we do have that opportunity, right? Yeah.

28:08Well, I also go back to the idea of people who have individuals who have gone through this and see the benefit of it, see all the good work that you're doing. They could reach into their wallets or donate some non cash assets that they have private, you know, private securities or real estate or stocks or bonds just to say it was, we really appreciate what you're doing. And here's some money and it was a little easier than you applying for a grant to get it. It's just a matter of the people who are seeing the work and the impact are the ones who could be part of the engine of funding what you're doing moving forward. That's, it's almost like circling back to what you said before, the ones who seem to come forward were the ones who really seem to understand what you were standing for. Well, you're, what you were doing, how you were helping where others were still sitting on the sidelines going, yeah, I'm just not seeing it. I can't identify with it. I don't, I don't really understand it. But those who started to understand it, those are the ones who seem to come forward and want to fund you. Exactly. And I think when we, when we branched out and started, and started to work with families,

29:13not just the individual, but the entire system of, you know, the family and the community that was affected by the person coming out, that's when we started seeing more individual donors and, you know, they saw how their lives were being touched. And it's not just about the one person, the LGBTQ Orthodox person, it's about the entire system that holds them, that is affected by them coming out. And so I think, you know, if people can see that, then it's, then it's true. It's like a much broader audience. Yeah. And yeah, we do a lot, we do a lot of work with parents. That is like pretty much half of what we do. Parents need support. They face a lot of discrimination when their kid comes out, you know, sometimes they have to pull the child from the school that they're in. And they can't continue to maybe go to the same synagogue that they were going to.

30:14And it's very, very painful. And it, you know, it really affects them. It affects the siblings and the family. And it affects the rest of the class that the child, you know, is in. And yeah, and, you know, the leaders, the teachers, they need to understand, they need to be able to make a space for those people because it's not just going to affect that one individual who, you know, I've had a lot of kids, you know, kids, young adults say to me like, that was hell being in my Jewish day school was hell. And I, you know, I'll never go back there. And that's like the biggest heartbreaker for us because what we want is for the kids to be able to stay in their communities. And that's what we're striving for. You know, we're striving for inclusion, family staying together, community staying together, not getting broken up over this as a, as an issue. It shouldn't be. Right. It's funny. I didn't expect you to say that about the parents. I thought you were going to say that we, we provide support to parents because the parents

31:16are struggling with accepting it. You're saying that's not the case or the way you just described it was. They've accepted it. Now they have to deal with all the collateral damage of this where others are not accepting it. And school is hell and on all these other things are, are, they're struggling with. But so that's interesting. I just, I didn't expect you to say that. Well, Rick, let me take a step back. We're doing it all at once. The parent is having their own issues of acceptance, you know, very much struggling internally. So like, they have to deal with their own feelings, right? And while they're dealing with their own feelings, they have to deal with the kid who could be depressed, God forbid suicidal, coming out in their orthodox day school, they have to deal with the friends with the, the rest of the family, the siblings, like everyone's reaction is going on all at once. So it's sort of like this, you know, cluster of like very difficult things that are happening

32:18at once to the family. And so our job is to like parse it out, take a deep breath with them as, you know, as a whole and, and work and then not always the two spouses are on the same page. So there's like that, that, and so it's all, it's kind of like everything at once. And you know, if the kid has just told the parents and then the parents all of a sudden are holding that secret and they're, then it's like, well, when will the kid tell everybody else? How do I prepare for that? So we do a lot of work with having the parent think through those things while we're connecting the parent to our genetic network of support because nobody gives you a manual when your child is born, right? Nobody says, okay, here's how your parent. And for sure, nobody gives you a manual and how to parent an orthodox LGBTQ kid, you know, and so they, there's a lot of pure support. So that's like, that's what we're doing. We're like holding the individual when they call our warm line and then we're slowly connecting

33:24them to the other people who have been there and have navigated and have learned. Yeah, it's like you're already anticipating their, their needs. They call in, they have a, they've a profile that you've seen before and you're saying, okay, these are the various things we're going to do to help you navigate this as somebody who's still struggling with it yourself once you are accepting it and you're, you're sort of moving through this, then these are the other things that we're anticipating that you're going to need to do. And so we've, we've been here lots and lots of times with other families and we know generally or we have a pretty good idea of what we're anticipating what you're going to need and therefore they're appreciative of that to say. I would never know how to proceed. I wouldn't even know where to begin but to, to just work with a shallow, just feels like, okay, now I'm, I feel like at least, at least I know I'm in good hands here as far as navigating through this. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah.

34:24That's what happens and it's, um, it's become a very wonderful, wonderful community and in the end of the day, a parents say, say things to us like, I have to thank my child because if it wasn't for them coming out to me, I would never have met this other family, this other community that have become like my best friends. So it's a very wonderful community of people who are experiencing some similar emotions, some similar challenges. And um, yeah. And I think they're all very grateful for each other and grateful to us for putting them in touch with each other and bringing them together. Yeah. So well, I'm going to ask you one last question or what's, what's next trash out like as you think about the future 20, 26, 20, 27, 20, 28, what's the, the grander vision? Is it maintain the course? I know you mentioned it would be nice if we had venues where we could have more people, but I was just thinking in terms of the bigger vision because in the world of philanthropy, I always think donors and nonprofits, they do need to think about what that future looks

35:27like. Exciting. It shows that the group is viable. It's going somewhere. And what does that future look like? So I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I was just wondering if you think about the future. What do you think about? Sure. I like that question. Why, why, like it? We just finished our strategic plan for the next three years. So we do have a sense of what's ahead and what we need to double down on. And what we're doing is we are branching out and, you know, we're going to be having, we have certain locations around the country where there are, you know, major populations of Orthodox people in community. And so we are going to those places and doing more programming, raising more awareness. And so that people in those places can feel supported, you know, because they don't have what they need, where they are. And we're going to be increasing our welcoming sholes project by strengthening our ties with the welcoming rabbis and increasing the numbers on that list. And it's growing, you know, every day it's growing.

36:29And we're building up a resource library for people to be able to access things online. We're, you know, creating a new website. So we have a lot of things that we're doing internally to grow and to get stronger. I also want to say that people like shiny and new and we also do and we're always creating new things. But to be honest, the things that we've been doing are amazing and we're going to keep doing them because they work. And there's no reason to reinvent some of the wheels because the wheels are really turning. So and, you know, some of those things are not funded, but we do them anyway and we put it together. But, you know, we would love for more support around those things because those things could get stronger and grow like for example, our retreats. It seems like in line with your strategic plan, one of the things I work on are called cases for support or case statements and it sounds like if they're not being funded, but they are working. I would think that any donor or potential donor would want to know that.

37:30Say, oh, you shouldn't be shouldering that yourself. It should be something that we could help you with because otherwise it's a drain on your budget, but, but, but just like by simply naming it, sometimes people step forward and say, well, I didn't know that there was a cost to that or I didn't even know that you were doing that. But if it's, if you're doing it, it's beneficial and you need money to support it, let us help you with that. So, versus the things that might be more obvious that they're funding or maybe it's unrestricted support or something, but I can, to me, that's where you take, you have an opportunity with a strategic plan in the case for support to be really clear about that with people and say, in order for us to be successful in the future, we're not asking to like you say, chase another shiny object. I mean, that would be nice, but fundamentally the stuff that's been working, there's certain things that actually are, we're running a deficit on some of those things. But we would never stop doing those things. But from a financial standpoint, it's not great. So if you can help us with that, then we can continue to provide that service, but not

38:34necessarily feel like we're sacrificing our, you know, our cash flow as a result of that. Exactly. So, that's a lot of people power, and that's really what it is, and that's a really good point, Rick, and also like, you know, from when nonprofits start their work, they're testing the waters, they're trying out different things, and the things that work, whether they're funded or not, sometimes they'll just keep doing them, because that's what they do. And it's true, and then you get into this place, you're like, oh my god, like, you know, four months out of the year, we're working on this one event, and our staff is being completely drained, and we don't get funding for this one thing. But if we did, then we would actually be able to do it in a much healthier way, in a more sustainable way, in a way that promotes growth. So I'm agreeing with you, and I think we do, you know, nonprofits need to take a step back and say, you know, how do we get that one big thing that we do every single year, no matter what? How do we get that funded so that we can do it, you know, with sanity, with sustainability,

39:37and, you know, in a way that promotes health amongst our staff, and well-being. And I do feel like that's the obligation of the nonprofit to be clear about that, because otherwise it's an unmet need that the public in theory doesn't know about, doesn't mean they don't support it, doesn't mean they wouldn't want to help you, they just don't know that it's a pain point for you. They don't know that it's a successful operation that runs at a deficit or that has some issues. So if you just being clear about that, says people say, oh, well, let me help you with that. Let me, in fact, I'm just going to give you an unrestricted gift, and if you want to put it over in that direction, that's fine. Or I can continue to fund this for you each and every year, knowing that that's something that is a struggle. Correct. Yeah. Great. And we do, you know, we have absolutely received gifts and grants for some of those big things, but, you know, maybe not in like a kind of way or the most sustained way. So, yeah. Yeah. I think you can, yeah, something to work on. Yeah, for sure. Well, again, you are not alone.

40:37Many, many nonprofits are also trying to figure out how do we do the good work? We need to do the fundamental work, as you said, the stuff that's working and make sure that we are solvent and we are continuing to thrive and continuing to build out to serve more of that community instead of feeling like we're barely able to keep it together. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Well, how would people find you? How can they reach you? How can they reach? Yeah. Ashell. How would people be able to be supportive? Thank you for asking. Yeah. So, it's our, I'll just say our website, it's echelonline.org. And if you would like to donate, there's a donate button on, you know, on the homepage. And it's also echelonline.org to support our work, backslash support our work. And yeah. And if you want to just shoot an email, it's info at echelonline.org. That's great. And I'll just spell it for people. ESHEL, just so you know, and as, as Miriam just said, it's echelonline.

41:39And then if you're looking for Miriam, her last, her first name, M-I-R-Y-A-M, and last name, K-A-B-A-K-O-V, and she's the co-founder and executive director. So, hopefully you can find her that way too. Maybe do you want people to connect with you on LinkedIn or is that not really a preferred mentor? Sure. Okay. All right. Love that. Yeah. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for not only taking your own personal struggle and sharing it, but also doing something with it in the form of echelonline. The power and the impact that you're making and that you will make, the legacy that you have is you can't really measure that. And so it's just powerful that you've seen this niche of people who need these services and you are so thoughtfully with your team putting it all together. So I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you so much, Rick. Thanks for this opportunity and best of luck in everything you're doing.

42:39Thank you. And you're always welcome to come back and share more stories as you have them, how you built from where you are today to where you're going. I'm sure people would love to hear the progress. Great. I will do that. Thank you. All right. We'll see you next time. Be well. That wraps up today's conversation with Miriam Kabaakov. Her story is a powerful reminder that philanthropy is ultimately about people and sometimes the greatest impact begins by creating a place where someone knows they belong. Three takeaways stand out to me. First, personal stories can become powerful missions. When we recognize that our own experiences are shared by others, we can turn empathy into meaningful action. Number two, fundraising begins with connection. Sometimes your strongest supporters are not the most obvious ones, though the people who understand the deeper human experience behind your mission. Number three, fund what works. Sustainable nonprofits need resources not only for exciting new ideas, but for the essential

43:43programs that are already changing lives. For nonprofit leaders, I encourage you to ask, what are we doing exceptionally well that donors may not fully understand or even know needs funding? And for donors and advisors, are we asking organizations what they truly need to sustain the work that matters most? Thanks for listening to Money to Give. If this conversation resonated with you, please leave a review on your preferred streaming platform. Share it with a friend or colleague and, most importantly, keep that giving feeling going. We are now categorized in the top 10% of all podcast worldwide, broadcasting in 37 countries and growing, with 500 downloads per month and nearly 10,000 downloads to date. A reminder, this podcast is meant to be for educational purposes only. For specific advice related to your own situation, please consult an attorney, financial advisor, CPA, or other type of trusted consultant. If you're looking for fresh insights in how to give smarter, raise more money, and advise

44:46your clients in a more informed way, please subscribe to my weekly newsletter, charitable giving news for you, register by going to my website, thefulanthropyguy.com. In the newsletter, you'll also read about many of our podcast guests, while also getting helpful tips and advice for nonprofits, donors, and professional advisors. Meaningful giving starts with meaningful connection, so please connect with me, Richard Peck, on LinkedIn as well. I'm proud to say I have over 11,000 followers and now over 10,000 connections. Until next time, let's keep making a difference together.