Ep. 1193: SCUBA for Preservation Around the World with Andi Cross

0:00If you're a podcast host, listen up this ones for you. My name is Ally Jackson. I'm the host of Finding Mr. Height, a dating and relationship podcast that I've been doing for four years now, sharing my positive and practical approach to dating that's built on my own life experience. And I wanted to share another experience that I've had, my secret behind monetizing my show. It's called Red Circle. And I was just telling my colleague about how much I love their platform. With Red Circle, not only am I getting a seamless hosting experience, but I also love the support I receive in AdSales. It's not just typical AdSales either. It's targeted opportunities based on my show and my life. And the platform is super simple. You just set your preferences and Red Circle matches you with sponsors that align with your show. You can vet every opportunity and their platform gives you great analytics. More recently too, my Red Circle team has brought me opportunities outside of my podcast on social media to really augment the podcast partnerships, bring them full circle. I just can't recommend them enough. If you want to give it a try, go to redcircle.com to get your free trial. That's redcircle.com for a free trial. Skin care experts and dermatologists have often touted the benefits of indoor humidity

1:02as essential for healthy glowing skin. But did you know dry air can start to harm your skin and as little as 30 minutes? For years, many people have relied on humidifiers for better skin, sleep and overall wellness. But traditional models, bulky, mold prone and difficult to maintain. That's where canopy humidifier comes in. Recommended by leading dermatologists, canopy is a completely reimagined humidifier designed to elevate any space, offering the ultimate in skincare and wellness benefits. Canopy's clean moisture, come that's dryness, dullness and fine lines while strengthening the skin's barrier and boosting the effectiveness of topical skincare products. With its sleek design, canopy is the cleanest and easiest humidifier on the market. With its unique technology, cleaning is as easy as popping it in the dishwasher. Go to getcanopy.co to save $25 on your canopy humidifier purchase today with Canopy's filter subscription. Even better, use code podcast to check out to save an additional 10% off your canopy purchase. Your skin will thank you. You're listening to The Adventure Sports Podcast.

2:08We talk with adventures from around the globe to give you the inspiration you need to get started in the outdoors or keep moving if you're already there. Now here's your host, Kurt Lindville. Hello, hello, hello, can you believe it? Happy St. Patrick's Day yesterday and Friday is the first day of spring. So cool, spring, equinox. What are your plans for the summer? I hope to get some summits under my belt. I want to do more motorcycle camping and backpacking. If I got that done, I think it would be a fantastic summer. What are your dreams? What are you thinking about for summer, 2026? Please let us know in the comments what your plans are and remember, of course, subscribe, review, do all the things that help The Adventure Sports Podcast to be more available for people to be inspired. I know that I am inspired by the guests that I get to interview and I'm inspired by you because there are thousands of you out there

3:09who also are taking the time to listen. And thank you very, very much. You're what make this show possible. Now let's jump into this episode on scuba diving for preservation all over the world. This is going to be a really fun episode. I can already tell. I am so excited to learn more about Andy Cross. Andy Cross is a technical diver, a scuba instructor, but she also does expeditions around the world. And in the last, I believe, three years, she's been to over 50 countries. She's documenting remote ecosystem and learning about them so that we can better understand them and protect them. Andy, welcome to the program. Thank you so much. Excited to be here. I find it so fascinating, Andy, to first of all, just to hear 50 countries in the last three years. That is a lot. Are you doing this full-time then I would assume?

4:10Yes, my partner and I have been on the road for the last three years together, working in these amazing places, pretty much full-time. And we have a very interesting way of going about our full-time endeavors. It's not very normal at all, but it's been very eye-opening and quite rewarding. Well, that's fun. We're going to get into all of that. I think what I'd like to do is talk about the scuba portion of this first and get that backstory. And then we'll dive into the expeditions that you're doing. And you also have an organization called Edges of the Earth, or sometimes, I guess, people call it Edges of the Earth Expeditions. So we're going to get into that as well and just the name of that sounds romantic. Okay, Andy, where are we talking to you right now? Hi, from Western Australia. I am in Perth, the most isolated city in the world, which is very far away from all places. But it has some of the most amazing diving over here on the west coast of Australia.

5:11So the west coast of Australia, and I said before I hit record here, that means that it's sometime tomorrow where you are. So, exactly. Thank you. It's also the middle of the night, I think. So thank you very much for talking to us. We could have adjusted the schedule had I known. But I'm very, very thankful for you. Now, how long have you been scuba diving? I started scuba diving in 2018, which is pretty crazy to think about because that's in diving world. That's a very short period of time. But once I saw what was all down below, I got the bug. And if anyone's listening who is a diver, you know what that bug is like. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. And I basically tried to cram years and years and years of diving in as quickly as it possibly could to make up for lost time, if you will. Andy, I know it's terribly rude to comment on people's ages, but I'm going to do it anyway. I heard that you learned how to swim.

6:12That's scuba dive, but swim at the age of 30. And since you're only 25, I don't understand how to help. Exactly. Yeah, so I'm 38, which is pretty wild to look back on, you know, only eight years ago, asking the lifeguard in the hotel pool right before I was taking my open water dive exam, if he could teach me how to swim a lap. I guess I was quite nervous about my abilities in the water, but once I moved to Western Australia and met my husband, Adam, he was watching me in the pool and he said, do you not know how to swim? And I was like, I don't know, I think I do. I mean, I can float. He's like, that's not swimming. You can't make it a lap in the pool. It was a very eye-opening experience that if I wanted to advance in diving at all, probably you need to still learn how to swim properly. OK, this is the first I've ever heard of this.

7:15I just did the mental math. You're learning to swim and learning to scuba dive almost at the same time. Matter of fact, you're diving before you're swimming. Well, so the lifeguard at the pool did a great job helping me pass my open water exam. So I was able to make it through one to two laps with a very unique doggy paddle, as they called it. But properly learning to swim was pretty critical in advancing my diving career to the real level. And it required many training sessions with my now in laws who gave me a little blue kickboard and took me to the kitty pool. And they're like, you need to learn how to do this one if you want to spend time in Australia and two, if you actually want to become a diver. So it was a very eye-opening journey to realize that I, in fact, did not have any swimming capabilities at all. Wow. OK, so that's very, very unique. I want to dive into that. I don't know pun intended a little bit more

8:15because it's so fascinating to me. So where did you grow up that you didn't learn to swim? Yeah, so I grew up in a place called Brumel, Pennsylvania. My parents definitely took me to the community pool. But our version of swimming and spending time in the water was going up to your ankle or to your knees and splashing around. And so I spent a lot of time in the Jersey Shore. I spent a lot of time in North Carolina and I got exposure to water. But I was fearful, I suppose. I never wanted to go further than where I could stand. And there were times where I definitely recall being interested. But it wasn't a passion. What I was exposed to, it wasn't what my family was doing. It wasn't how we spent our time. So although I loved marine life and I loved going to aquariums and I loved reading about fish in particular, I was not your average kid of actively wanting

9:15to go swim in a pool or really wanting to do much physical activity at all. Like I was not an athlete. I did not like gym class. This was not my passion. My passion was reading about fish and encyclopedias and in books. So it's a pretty wild transformation to go from someone who was a little scared of this old process to now being borderline obsessed. Oh wow, okay. I've heard and seen and met many people who scuba dive because they love water so much and they swam and wanted to be able to stay down longer. That's usually the story I hear. I don't think I realized that I did not know how to properly swim. That was the piece for me where I guess I always thought treading water or being able to doggy paddle or that was good enough, right? I could get back. But not realizing that if you want to advance

10:15in a sport like this and you really want to spend time in the water, that's just not going to cut it. You really can't get past any basic level of scuba diving without having deep knowledge on how the ocean works or how you move with the ocean or when there's risks in front of you and frankly how to get out of it which oftentimes requires the ability to swim. While scuba diving is interesting because the devices that you wear and the equipment that you wear, it doesn't require you to really propel yourself through the water on your own. You have support, you have that buoyancy device that's keeping you hovering and you're making small motions to move yourself through the water. But to properly get out of trouble or to surface swim or to do anything and rescue or to go into your dive master and your instructor level work, you need to be able to swim, make it to safety and support other people in that process too.

11:17Well, well, you're an inspiration. I know a lot of people that maybe they're curious about the underwater world, they're curious about scuba diving but then they just discount it and say, you know what, I'm not even a water person. I probably shouldn't do that. What would you say to that person? I am not a water person. I had the steepest learning curve of them all, especially when you're in your 30s and you're accepting beginner mindset all over again with something so basic that you think you know even in the slightest bit and then whenever on around you was saying, wait a second, that's not right. And you have a long way to go. That's quite an intense feeling. So if anybody is feeling like they're sitting on the fence or they're not a water person, I can say that in no way shape or form was I won but you can become one if that's something you really want to do. And I'll also say, it's not something you should force yourself into as aggressively as I did where I really pushed my own limits pretty much

12:20every day for five years straight to get to the point that I wanted. You can take baby steps into this and it's all a journey that can be done at your own pace. That's an amazing story. Well, good for you. I just want to celebrate that for a minute. That is a life accomplishment. When you set out to do this, did you realize what you were up against and now when you reflect on it? How does it make you feel? Every time I complete a dive exam or I pass and graduate to a higher level, it is the most exciting day of my life because I look back on that time just floundering and feeling so self-conscious of like I don't understand like how this happened or why I'm in this position and having these really negative thoughts about why am I so far behind my peers or why didn't I get this opportunity when I was younger but that's no way to look at things. It's about seizing the moment the minute you realize

13:22or the minute you have the opportunity to. And it's so, so, so exciting to see how far you can go from zero to all the way into running multi-month, multi-year expeditions where I'm swimming all the time and passing swim tests quite regularly which is a huge, huge accomplishment for me. And I take the small wins for what they are so it's great. Beautiful example. Okay, why did you try scoop? How did that happen? There must be a story there. Yes, yes, yes. So like I said, grew up in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, went to school in Washington DC, moved immediately out of school to New York and I did what I was supposed to do. I climbed the corporate ladder and my whole focus, my whole world was, I need to make it in New York because if I can make it in New York, I can make it anywhere, right? And this is what the song says, right? That's what they say. And that's how I grew up. I wasn't skiing or snowboarding or roller skating

14:22or cycling much. I was learning to be a professional and that's where the focus was. So my life calling was to be a great marketer. That was my job. And so I took that really seriously. And for 10 years, I lived by the corporate rulebook you know, I stayed late, I worked hard, I moved up, I moved up as quickly as I could. And it was 2017. When I saw, I was doom scrolling. It was Instagram days. And I saw a photo in National Geographic of a polar bear shriveling on ice. And it was this whole story about climate change and I hadn't really consumed news like that. I'd obviously seen some of it, but I hadn't been struck by something quite like that photo. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks that I'm sitting in this high rise New York building. I'm using my skill to sell sneakers to the privilege.

15:26And you know, I work at this big marketing firm and we work with mega brands that are just, it's consumerism to the max. And I thought, is this really how I want to spend my time? And I flashed back to a childhood reading these books about fish and wildlife and these people who went on adventures and exploration. And I realized like at the core of who I was, that was the thing that I cared most about. And so I reached out to the photographer on LinkedIn who took that photo and said, I know absolutely nothing about conservation, restoration, climate change, but I'm a marketer. And I think my skills could help you in some way. And surely enough, they needed a marketer and I started working with that team. And they opened my eyes to this whole other world. And I was amazed, couldn't unsee it again. And one day they asked me, if I love the ocean so much, why had I never tried diving or getting in? And I honest to God had not ever thought about that in my life.

16:28I never even imagined myself as a scuba diver. I don't actually even think I fully knew what it meant at that time. And so in 2018, I went to take my open water course in a Manhattan public swimming pool. It was green. It was quite a unique experience. And I remember the instructor said, wow, you are going to really struggle with this. This is not going to be an easy journey for you. Are you sure you want to do this? And I said, yeah, I think so. And they said, our recommendation is go down the Bahamas, get some swimming lessons in a pool, be in warm water and give it a go. There's no better place to go try. And so I booked a flight down to the Bahamas. I worked with a lifeguard in the pool. I had to help tell. And I took my open water exam and I shockingly passed and passed genuinely. It wasn't just a little sign off.

17:31It was real. I did what I was supposed to do. And I saw sharks on my first dive. And I said, OK, my whole life just changed right here right now. I am now a scuba diver. And I am going to move to a place where I can do this all the time and become a professional and expert level diver and build my whole career around this. And that's what I did. That was in 2018. And then I moved to Western Australia by 2019. And I went on a pretty significant five-year journey to Godmaster. Fascinating. Really, really fascinating. I want to point out one little nuance of what you said there. People ask me what I do for a living. And I try really hard not to say I am, because I would have to say I am an RF engineer, which I'm not. That's just the work I do. I would much rather say, I'm a podcaster. I like to talk to people about adventure. That's an IM statement.

18:32Or I'm a mountain near. I climb mountains. Or I'm a backcountry skier. That's an IM statement. Whenever you talked about scuba diving, you said, I am now a scuba diver. Your identity, I mean, it pegged it. And I think that people, we should pay attention to that a little bit. When we find an IM moment where we say, no, this is what I really am. This is me. We should listen. What did that feel like? What did that feel like? I mean, you were leaving New York, corporate America, and you became someone who pursued scuba diving. Yeah, that was a catalytic moment, truly. And I remember diving in the Bahamas. I can't even imagine what my form looked like or how bumbly I was. And I remember thinking, yeah, I have this really long road ahead. But if this is the long road ahead that I'm up against, I'm so in because this is incredible.

19:33And I have no idea what I'm going to do with this fully. But I know there's, I'm going to unlock some version of myself and I'm going to blend all of these things together because to your point, I never wanted to say, I am a marketer. That's, I have a skill that is in marketing. But what I really am is this water, it is person interested in water, this person who's deeply fascinated by marine life, and above all else, just a curious person, and willing to push really hard for the things that I care about. So I wanted to re-engineer this next chapter of my life around those core truths. It's like, it's what I like to call my default mode. Like, if I had to hit the reset button and just strip it down to the core of who I am, these are the things. And I was like that as a child. And I'm like that now. And those are my favorite things about me. So why not double down on them? And moving to Australia, everyone in my life, except two people,

20:33said it was a horrible idea. I was ruining my career. I'd worked so hard to get to this point. They couldn't believe it. They said, you're moving for a die. You're moving for the, there was like excuses of all variety. And I appreciated hearing all that feedback, but it was the fuel to the fire. The more people said, no. The more I said yes, I'm like, OK, I'm moving to Australia. And I chose Australia for a lot of reasons. I wanted to be by this ocean in particular, because it is so challenging, and it's so intense. And there's so much wildlife. I wanted to learn in an environment that would just push me so hard, not to say other oceans aren't magnificently challenging they are. But for some reason, in my mind, this was ferocious. This was the wild west. And if I could learn it here, I could do it anywhere. So it was, again, a similar mindset to New York. And when I moved out here, I had no friends.

21:35I had no connections. My now husband was living about four hours, three, four hours away from me. And so when I was spending time with him, it was long distance back and forth. And I just immersed myself in this wild world, completely alone, mainly to see if I could do it, if I could cut it. And that transformation moment was the most exciting, because I had to sit with myself and sit with my strengths and weaknesses and really identify what they are. And be really honest with myself about my capabilities and what it was going to take to achieve those goals. And I cried a lot in 2019. I spent a lot of time wondering if I made a terrible decision. And by 2020, it was sealed that it was the right one. Nice. You know, you didn't use the word fear in any of this conversation. But a lot of people are thinking fearful thoughts, because they're thinking, I don't even know how to swim. I'm afraid of water. I can't imagine sharks, scuba diving, all the animals

22:38she's talking about, challenging oceans. Those are scary words. Was it a scary thing for you? I was more afraid of myself, if that makes sense. Freight of my abilities. And afraid of my strengths. Carrying all of this gear requires some strength. And especially as you advance, and you get into technical diving, where you're carrying a lot more gear than your basic recreational kit. And I just didn't actually feel strong in any way. And I think that was the theme of moving to Australia. Am I strong enough mentally, physically? Can I really do this? And I don't think it was so much fear, because I love risk, and I love adventure, and I loved diving into the unknown. Those aren't fearful things for me. But I was more so questioning, do I have the ability, the actual guts or what it takes to achieve these things?

23:39And that was the part that I was scared of. I was scared of quitting and coming home and saying that I didn't complete the mission. I was afraid that I made the wrong choice. I was afraid of these things that were all stemming for me. The ocean was scary, for sure, in moments. But I worked with really amazing people who were the best teachers and such good guides, and they took the fear out of it. And I think that for other people who are listening who might be afraid of some of these natural things, if you find there are people who really care about the educational and training journey, that fear can be eliminated. But if you feel like you're on your own and you're doing this yourself, yeah, of course it's scary. But I got really lucky with the people who I surrounded myself with who took me under their wing, thought it was quite comical, my situation, and put me through a five-year boot camp that got you ready for anything underwater quite well.

24:40Quite, quite well. That's amazing. I have a theory, Andy, which is that things that scare us a little bit are also more exciting when we challenge that fear. And I absolutely love scuba, it's one of my favorite things to do. But it's never really been exciting for me much. And the reason is because I was so comfortable in water. I was a fish. I just always was in the water swimming and holding my breath and doing all the things. So scuba diving is just an extension of that for me. But I've known other people that are a little bit edgy about the water, and they tend to get more excited about scuba diving. It's more fun maybe because they're challenging themselves in an area that's a little less familiar. Where would you fall on that spectrum? Oh, well, it's not that I've ever been afraid of the ocean. It's not that the water scares me. It was always that I never really knew what was coming. So I'd always be on edge, right?

25:43And that adrenaline made diving really exciting. So I know exactly what you mean. But the best example I have is my father who learned to scuba dive at 67 because I forced him to. And he went to the pool every day to practice his swimming, but as he too is not a strong swimmer, I'm not sure. He knew how to swim, but not very well. And he was so scared for his open water, terrified, freaking out. Had flashcards was reading all of his flashcards about deep diving theory. I'm like, dude, he's going to be fine as not what this is. But he was so, so, so, so, so afraid of the ocean and so afraid of his capability and so afraid of what could happen and running all these scenarios of what ifs like completely understands that watching his journey. But again, when you surround yourself with the right people and you have a holding hand through that journey, those fears can be eliminated really quickly.

26:45But if you're a water person and you're born a water person and you have that ocean awareness or you have water awareness, yeah, there's a lot of excitement that comes from putting yourself in harder or crazier conditions. And maybe you're, you know, you get there a lot faster than someone like me or my father. But I will say, I'm now in that position where recreational diving sometimes feels quite calming. I say it's like taking a nap and I'm chasing much different dive experiences because always looking for that exciting rush. Have you ever gone through all the hassles of getting on the plane, security, luggage, long waits at the airport, all that kind of stuff? And then when you finally arrive at your destination, not only are you worn out, but you also might feel a little bit disconnected. I know that I do when I hopscotch around the planet on a plane. That's one of the reasons why I love

27:47the great American road trips where you get to drive from one place to another and connect all of those dots. You get to experience the changes in the terrain and the weather and the people and the communities. This is one reason that I am excited to present to you our new sponsor, Outdoorsy. Outdoorsy offers a different way to travel. Without Dorsy, you can rent an RV or a camper and turn the drive into part of the vacation on your schedule with your people and with way more flexibility. Listen, most trips focus on getting somewhere. Outdoorsy is about the part in between. Without Dorsy, you can rent an RV or a camper and travel on your own terms, no TSA lines, no strict schedules, no rushing through airports. And for extra convenience, Outdoorsy even offers RV delivery and setup in many locations, so you can enjoy the experience

28:50without having to worry about the logistics. Outdoorsy connects travelers with trusted RV owners across the country, making it easy to find a rig that fits your style and budget, and I might add that also fits with the people and the pets that you want to take with you. So when you're ready for a trip that actually feels like a break, head to outdoorsy.com. Outdoorsy is currently running a special promotion for listeners, use the promo code ASP at checkout to take advantage of this limited time offer that's outdoorsy.com promo code ASP. The sun shining, birds are singing and all feels right in the world. Until the season changes and suddenly you lose your motivation to get out of bed. In fact, one in five people experience some form of depression no matter the season or time of year. At the American Psychiatric Association Foundation, our vision is to build a mentally healthy nation for all

29:53because we want you to live your best life and be your best you all year round. Please visit mentallyhealthination.org to learn more. Well, let's go there a little bit. You've been using two words, open water and technical. And you've been saying open water diving. That's how we start as open water divers. And then you've been talking about technical driving and being a diving instructor. What's the difference? Sure, so I'll walk you through the process. Open water diving is basically, well, there's discover diving which enables you to go scuba diving without necessarily getting certified. It should taste your glimpse. If you're not so sure, if you would like this, discover diving is just the little gateway. Snorkeling's another gateway too, right? Open water is where you get certified. You go through a process where you're training in confined water, you're doing theory and online learning. And then you have multiple days where you're in open water. The ocean, a lake, some sort of water body

30:55where you can train the skills you learned in confined water environment like a pool and test it all out. That's step one. Then there's a whole bunch of different steps you can go through like advanced diving, which basically focuses on specialty skills, whether you want to do wreck diving or boat diving or night diving or practice your buoyancy. You have the opportunity to choose a handful of dive specialties and move forward. And then there's rescue diving, which is arguably one of the most important dive courses you'll ever take, which is not only worrying about your own safety, but worrying about the safety of others, I highly recommend all divers move through to rescue diving. Then there's some specialty courses you can take like diving with nitrocks or, you know, perfecting any certain skill that you might have that you might be worried about. And then you can move into dive master, which is what I am. So I'm not an instructor. One level underneath the instructor level

31:55that focuses on guiding or helping navigate certain dives or working with divers to perfect certain skills while I can't actually certify a diver to, you know, any certain level, I'm part of a pro community where we're helping take people out in the water. So dive master is really focused less on yourself. Obviously, you want to keep yourself safe, but the safety and the collective experience of others. But I'm not a dive master in a traditional sense because oftentimes dive masters work at dive shops or dive resorts and they're guiding dives. The reason I went into dive master is just for further education and skills. So I could say that I put in the work, I put in the time and I got to that pro level to go on these types of expeditions and keep myself safe and the others that I'm diving with. But then you can go into instructor and instructor trainer and that's more on the recreational path where you're helping others get in the water and learn. There's another path and that's called technical diving. And this has become my very true

32:57and real obsession over the years. And I told myself I would not go here when I started diving and here I am because it's a very long road and it's technical diving. All diving is technical, technically. But this type of diving is about going deeper, about going farther and about staying down for longer. So we call it extended range. It's basically extending your time under water and extending the amount of places that you can go. So I'm sponsored by a group called Scuba Schools International where they're a big dive training agency and they specialize very much in extended range diving to basically get you into caves or get you into mines or get you into super, super deep ship racks below 40 meters or going to places that are a little more tricky, a little more complicated that require far more equipment, far more training and a lot more deep technical knowledge

33:58of diving in theory and in practice. Interesting. I'm going to oversimplify this for the listeners and then maybe you can fill in the gaps. Really, scuba diving at its core is about not holding your breath when you're using scuba gear and about not staying down too long. And really as an open water diver, those are the two big ones, right? As a technical diver, you introduce everything else. I mean, the underwater navigation is a big deal. Now you are staying down what would be considered too long for an open water diver. And you're having to work in environments where visibility is in question. Maybe they're crazy currents to contend with. There are places you can get lost. I mean, fill in all those gaps for us. How big of a leap is it from open water to technical? So open water, you could be experiencing low visibility. You could be experiencing extreme currents. You could be experiencing all kinds of different environments.

35:01It's just about your comfort level. And oftentimes open water divers, someone could stay an open water diver. Their entire dive journey have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dives and never go into the technical or extended range world at all and have amazing experiences and experience lots of challenging, interesting conditions. The ocean and water bodies are wild. However, if you want to start really exploring other, exploring other parts of the ocean and feeling comfortable, truly comfortable doing it, and you get this level of training, you're just building, building, building on your knowledge set and it enables you to feel true comfort. But it also opens up a new set of gear. So open water diving is usually on an open circuit kit where your breathing bubbles are coming out. You have a single tank on your back and you have lots of different equipment that can either support lightweight travel.

36:02If you want more gear on, you can have a heavier gear on, you can have that. In extended range diving, you need multiple tanks, redundancy. It's all about being as safe as possible in these wild extreme conditions. Or alternatively, you could go on open water dives, basic open water dives, and use this gear and just stay down so much longer. So the real difference in all of this is your ability to stay down. And as a diver, the more and more you dive, the more and more you realize you want more time down there. So that's the big one. But then again, going farther, going to these different places, it requires you to know how to use far more gear, how to carry far more gear, and how to be completely confident in all of these conditions as best you possibly can. So there's so many gaps that we can fill in. I mean, you could be diving in kelp forest,

37:04you could be diving coral reefs, you could be diving in ice, you could be diving in altitude. And all of that requires training, training, training. But you get to a certain point in your dive journey. And there's this burning question of what else is out there. And you know that there's so much unexplored. And you start meeting people in the diving community, you start seeing them using multiple tanks, two tanks, side mount, or back set, and you're wondering, wow, wow, why do you need all those tanks? And you start asking questions. And again, like you couldn't unsee open water, you can't unsee this. And with time, the more people you meet, the more passion you see, and you hear these incredible tales of exploring these underwater cave systems, these amazing minds are these super deep racks. And you say, I want to do that. And then you just realize you need more tanks on your body, more redundancy. And you need to learn how to go deeper, deeper, deeper.

38:05Wow. Well, I want to transition from just the scuba diving into what you do with your scuba diving in the edges of the earth and all of your travel. And we need to go there. But just so people get a picture for it, or for scuba diving, will you tell us a brief story about a dive experience that just lit you up? You're like, wow, I can't believe this happened. Sure, wow, I have so, so, so many. Somebody once told me in my early days of diving that there's no such thing as a bad dive, and the aim of your dives, no matter what, if you can't see anything, if you can see everything, and you have 30 meters of visibility, is to find something that you've never seen before, or that intrigues you, or that's special, because the ocean has so, or the water bodies have so much to offer. So every dive for me has had some element of magic. But I would say there's two dives that stick out,

39:07and I'll keep it short. The first time I ever saw kelp forest, I was diving in Southern California. It was the first time I had to navigate a dive by myself. I was very nervous about my abilities, because again, I'm now leading a dive. People are relying on me. I don't have somebody more senior or more pro than me. I think I was on about dive number 60 at the time. And we're diving through the shadows of the California kelp forest, and I remember getting lost in that kelp and thinking. I have struck gold. This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. It's like the Sequoia forest underwater. What else is out there? I need to become a better diver right now, because if this is what I'm seeing in the shadows, what else is going on? So that was one, and then number two, diving in the Wando River in the Carolina, in South Carolina, outside of Charleston. It's very low visibility diving.

40:07It's probably on about dive number 400 or 500 at this point. And we, the currents are extremely strong in the Wando and Cooper River. And there's teams, Carolina dive locker, in particular, who takes people out to look for fossils for megalodontief, prehistoric sharks. And this is that, I love fossils. I love searching hunting for fossils. And so this was my big dream. And they said, look, this diving is not for the faint of heart. How many dives do you have? Do you feel confident? I was like, I'm in good. No worries, I'm a pro, you know? And we get on the boat, and we kid up, and they give me two picks, two, like mountaineering picks. They said, OK, you're going to go down, and you're going to anchor to the riverbed, and you're going to move yourself along the riverbed, and you're not going to be able to see anything, and you're going to sift around and try to find big, trying, big, black triangles. And I was like, OK, great, that sounds perfect.

41:08I have never felt more disoriented in my life, dropping down into that river. It was such strong currents, so intense. And you could not tell left, right, up, down. So you're relying on where your bubbles are going, and you're completely disoriented. You get to the floor, you cannot see anything. It's completely silted out. And I remember thinking, I have no idea what I'm doing. And I thought I knew. And after a couple dives, and a couple tries, it became quite familiar, and it is my favorite diving period, it's incredible. And you're relying on your other senses to find these gigantic, hand-sized triangles, a prehistoric sharks that were very abundant in up and down the east coast of the USA. Millions and millions of years ago. But that stood out, and that changed the game because that opened my eyes to a different kind of diving, where it's not so much about glamorous shots or incredible megafauna or charismatic species approaching you. It's about looking so much closer for ancient relics

42:13that can just tell you so much about where we've come from. Those are not the answers I anticipated, and I'm so glad. That was cool. It was so cool. Several episodes back. I did an episode with a friend about River Snorkeling, which is something that I kind of laugh about. We even made some stickers that say, Adventure Sports Podcast, River Diving, or River Snorke, Whitewater Snorkeling. Anyway, the point is that I see things in rivers below my mind. And the visibility is going to be questionable, and the currents are crazy, but I love it. I absolutely love it. I love exploring that stuff. And I always expect someone like yourself to say, it was the tiger shark. I was in the Indian Ocean, but instead, you're describing an environment that you couldn't do without the scuba gear, but you're doing something fascinating. Really cool. Thank you. Yeah, those are, listen, I love the megafauna.

43:14I love sharks. I love whales. But as you advance in your diving, you start to look for the things that are less seen, and it's quite interesting what you can find. Wow. Okay. Which brings us, I like this segue. Edges of the Earth. It's like, okay, we're going places to see things that are not always known or found. So what is Edges of the Earth? What are you doing with that? Yeah, for sure. So while back I mentioned that I wanted to blend my professional career and my new professional career of diving, and I thought, where's their gap? And I'd worked with a lot of nonprofits and ocean conservation teams and realized there was incredible storytelling about whales, sharks, dolphins. But the human connection piece was missing for me. Why should I care as Andy living in Brumel, Pennsylvania about these amazing species? Like, what does this have to do with me, or where can I fit my skills into the equation? And that was a narrative that was never shared

44:15with me growing up, which is why I became a marketer and lived in New York for many years in my life. And I thought, I wonder if there's a lot of people like me wondering and wishing that they knew what their options were. If you're an accountant, a lawyer, a doctor, a marketer, a project manager, where do you fit into this whole thing? Where do you fit into the climate conversation, the ocean conservation, et cetera? And so my husband and I decided to build a business called Edge the Birth, and it's a consulting business that helps these incredible organizations, whether it's a nonprofit and institution, for profit business focused on mission-driven work, accelerate and scale their story, and be able to scale their story to different audiences than what is expected, or who they're already reaching. That's part one. But then part two, we didn't feel like we could really say, we could consult these businesses if we didn't go and live alongside them in the field, or better understand what was at stake in their communities.

45:18So we were working on a global scale, and we started visiting our organizations we were working with, where they were. That could be off the coast of California, that could be off the coast in New Zealand, that could be somewhere in Australia, and then we started to realize through that process when we were working with these teams to sharpen their story and better communicate their impact. Wow, there are so many amazing people doing incredible things with unbelievable jobs that have carved out these special niches. And how can we start telling their stories more? So for two years, we planned all the places we wanted to go, all the stories we wanted to tell, where there was some sort of big impact happening in a region, but it was hardly reported or understood. So for example, women who were harvesting kelp and using kelp's properties to obsolete single use plastic, or an indigenous tribe in New Zealand, changing the mindset of their First Nations communities

46:21from hunting and gathering to gardening, or female divers in Japan who are sustainably harvesting seafood and creating a culture of employment for women in diving. So many stories that just for opening my eyes to all these different ways you can contribute in their career paths. And so we basically were chasing marine aggregations. That's the schedule that we are following. So who was focusing on either great ecosystems or megafauna that we were using these ecosystems, whether for migrations or for feeding or breeding. And what when we started actually going around the world and documenting these stories of incredible positive progress, we realized that what we're seeing is something called positive deviance, which is this concept of succeeding against the odds when everything is stacked up against you. It's a theory that's used in understanding societies

47:22or understanding communities. Why does one community succeed while the other one doesn't? So we thought we're seeing this too with ecosystems. Why are some ecosystems succeeding in others? Not why are the kelp forests dying off in northern and central California, but they're absolutely thriving in the south of Argentina. Like what is happening there? And are there enabling conditions that are causing that? So that's what we started studying. It really has evolved from this idea of just showcasing stories of positive progress to where are these real outliers of complete success stories when it comes to fighting climate change or mitigating climate change? And how can we tell those stories and share the stories of people who are on the front lines working in those fields to inspire other people to realize there's paths for them and there's solutions that are actually working. Maybe they can get involved with those projects or kick off their own project that's similar in a region that needs that same type of help.

48:24You know, here's what I like about that. And I don't wanna over speak, but I think climate change regretfully was politicized. And so that makes people wonder what's fact and what's fiction and that's too bad. And CO2 is an invisible, tasteless, you know, odorless gas that plants use. It's hard for us to think in those terms, but I was just telling my son last night, but we have nitrous oxides. We have ozone, we have sulfates and sulfides that we should be doing something about. We know the effects of these, we can smell them. We see what they're doing. And it's like if you take care of those things, you take care of the CO2 thing at the same time. And I see a parallel thing going with you because you're saying, no, we're finding places where kelp forests are doing well and where they're not. And people say, well, what's that have to do with CO2? That's not the point. The point is we're figuring out what the ecosystems are actually doing.

49:26And everything becomes a microcosm of the bigger picture. So it's so cool because you're able to be like boots on the ground where you can measure what's going on and you're doing it all over the world. I like that. That is exactly right. Thank you. Yeah, that's exactly right. And you know, some of these stories, while you and I might have heard of them, there are so many people who do not know what a kelp forest is. And while we're very focused on, again, the megafauna, the big charismatic species, I love them. It's so amazing to be in the water with a whale. It's these stories of ecosystems, total ecosystems and the people who are fighting to keep these ecosystems intact because if we keep these ecosystems intact, we ensure our survival is the species. And it's just bringing the ocean and humanity hand in hand in these stories as best we possibly can, showing real people doing real work and the feedback that we often get as well. I didn't realize that I could be, that that could be a career path for me

50:26or I didn't know that company existed or I didn't know that solution was out there. I want to work on that or I want to be a part of that. And that's the most exciting thing because as a New Yorker who is sitting in my high-rise selling speakers to privileged people, I never, never, never thought in a million years. But this is how I would be spending my time. But if you see a photo or you read a story or you're inspired by somebody that's enough, that's enough that could absolutely upend your whole world and prove with that. So I think this whole effort has been to replicate that for as many people as possible because if I can learn to swim, then pretty much anybody can. Wow. Will you tell us a story in account of one of these edges of the earth places that you went and what you witnessed that was an aha sort of a moment for you like this is the story that has to be told. Yeah, for sure. Okay. This is actually a recent one. I met a group of people called the Jaguar Reverse Initiative

51:30at Climate Week and they were telling me their story about how they are connecting multiple countries through river corridors in South America to create these protected areas, to enable jaguars to move through these rivers and obviously other species that are native to the region and basically work across these governments or work across these countries like never before. Because oftentimes you're of conservation and it's in a very particular region and there's a set of requirements from local government and it's very contained, right? But this was across Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia and Paraguay. And the team, it was all formed by rewilding Argentina which is a very established group obviously out of Argentina with Chris Tompkins as its leader with a very local, very qualified and credible team with so much experience years and years rewilding Argentina basically helping to transform land

52:33that was used for agriculture or farming or that was completely degradated or destroyed for some purposes for humans and bringing it back to his wild state. They brought together all of these teams, these nonprofit teams that have deep expertise in their country, they created a committee, created stakeholder groups and basically came to a universal agreement that they needed to protect these river corridors. So we had the chance to go and work with them for about two weeks and document their journey from Argentina into Brazil and to dive, we snorkeled. But to snorkel these rivers and to see how much life is there and how much is worth protecting, how rich it is, how biodiverse it is, nobody's dove these places before. So it was incredibly, incredibly exciting for us obviously but on this scale of this is so extreme and it's such a blueprint for success.

53:35If they're able to pull this off, this is a roadmap for countries all around the world to think about what conservation measures need to go into place, what rewilding looks like, how to, you know, convene stakeholder groups from different organizations, different countries. There's so many layers to this. Those are the types of stories that we chase where there's, it really is a game changing scale of effort and we use diving, snorkeling, getting in the waters are vehicle to connect a lot of these stories. While we do a lot of work on land, most of our work is ocean and water based. We use the water as a means to express the power of these stories through visual documentation but also writing and our consulting work. I love it. So cool. I've said several times on this show or the last 10 years that if you go to the doctor because you're not feeling well, they're gonna do a blood test. They're gonna, they're gonna check your urine. What are they doing? They're checking the liquids of your body

54:35to see what's wrong with you and how healthy you are. And if we wanna know how healthy that nature is or how healthy the earth is, you do the same thing. You gotta check the water. And if you have healthy water, you have a healthy ecosystem. And if you have unhealthy water, there's a problem with the ecosystem. It's that straightforward. And to be able to do that in rivers and streams, I mean, that's amazing and fantastic. But when you get to the oceans, suddenly it takes on almost a global reach for me. You see so much more because the oceans are so big and vast. And you're able to bring this in story form to people in a way that they can connect with. That's a special thing. It is. Thank you. And that's the goal to just make sure all the work that we're doing is connecting people to water bodies in ways they never expected were possible.

55:36Very, very cool. So what are some of your favorite places that you've been? Just the short list of how this place was so cool because? This is the hardest question of them all because everywhere has something special from the creeks in Japan where we've searched for giant salamanders in freezing cold water, in dry suits, looking under rocks or in the glaciers of Alaska where we're diving in the summer where the glaciers are melting and there's caves you can dive through them. And you'll never dive that site ever again because the glacier melt is different every single year. So the caves and the caverns that I've had the chance to dive will never go back. Those are pretty impressive. Anywhere on the Pacific Northwest, it is some of my favorite favorite diving. Like I mentioned before at the Kalpin Southern

56:37in Central California, more so in Central California, but when you go up into British Columbia and you go to the very, very tip of Vancouver Island, it is like another world down there. It is hands down one of my favorite dive destinations, God's Pocket, is the resort that you base yourself out of. It's the only place you can base yourself out of to go see some of these sites and it's fantastic. It's super cold water requires a lot of training, a lot of skill, just because the currents are incredibly strong and kind of moving all around down there. Argentina is some of my favorite diving for kelp. It's one of the last places that has truly intact giant kelp forests like you could never imagine, hardly dove. And then Australia, I picked this place as my home base because everywhere, every single corner of Australia has diving like you wouldn't imagine. From X-Mouth here in Western Australia

57:38where you're interacting with whale sharks or incredible man-to-rays or shark species of all kind and crystal clear water down the south of Australia where you're diving with the giant cuddle fish. It's mating season in July, August, and you could be in the water of 250,000 cuddle fish as they fight each other for mating. Great white sharks, endangered Southern sea lions. They're so, so much the gray bear reefs, even just diving off the coast of Sydney. They're so much happening in a place like this. But for me, I'm never a good person to ask about where to go to dive because I tell people things like the Wando River where you'll see nothing and you'll be digging for sharks or icebergs and glaciers. But if I had to say some of the best, best diving, especially for people who are just getting started, Indonesia is amazing. Malaysia, the Philippines are absolutely incredible.

58:39Florida has a lot to offer. There's places that are a little bit less aggressive than what I might be talking about. But pretty much where there's body of water, there's something we found. So it's always an adventure. You have taken diving to a whole other level. I've talked to several people about recreational diving, which is absolutely wonderful, but you're taking diving to a different level. It's like, I want to see the thing that hasn't been seen. I want to see the dynamics of the ecosystem. I want to see what's going on, not just drop in and visit a reef and come back up. I want to engage all of it. That is super, super interesting. And believe it or not, we've burned through our time already. But will you tell us how people can learn more about edges of Earth? And what would be your quest or your mission for it that you would like people to know about? For sure. That's why we just launched our new website.

59:41That's edgesaverse.com. So definitely take a look, check us out. There are a lot of people who have way more experience in diving than I do featured on that website. So be inspired by their stories because there are some people who have explored places that are even even more wild and crazy than what I'm talking about. So definitely check that. And the best thing to know the hope that I have is if you take a look at our content and you are even remotely inspired to get in the water, just do it, just try. If you hate it and it's absolutely not for you, at least you can say you gave it a go. But it's so worth it too. If you have any shred of interest to do a discover dive or go through your open water and see how it feels or even just try some snorkeling and recognize that there's a whole big blue world out there of which we don't know very much. It's very unexplored and we need more people getting in the water because it's the best possible way to care.

1:00:43When you see it, you really can't unsee it. So that is my hope, my ask. I love it. So edges of, is it edges of earth or edges of the earth.com? Edges of earth. So no V, everyone, it's edgesofearth.com. Andy, thank you so much for your time. That was fantastic. Thank you so much. Everyone, I say this every show. I don't think I can say it better than Andy did. Get out there and have some fun. If you're a podcast host, listen up this once for you. My name is Ally Jackson. I'm the host of Finding Mr. Height, a dating and relationship podcast that I've been doing for four years now, sharing my positive and practical approach to dating that's built on my own life experience. And I wanted to share another experience that I've had, my secret behind monetizing my show. It's called Red Circle. And I was just telling my colleague about how much I love their platform with Red Circle, not only am I getting a seamless hosting experience,

1:01:44but I also love the support I receive in AdSales. It's not just typical AdSales either. It's targeted opportunities based on my show and my life. And the platform is super simple. You just set your preferences and Red Circle matches you with sponsors that align with your show. You can vet every opportunity and their platform gives you great analytics. More recently too, my Red Circle team has brought me opportunities outside of my podcast on social media to really augment the podcast partnerships, bring them full circle. I just can't recommend them enough. If you want to give it a try, go to redcircle.com to get your free trial. That's redcircle.com for a free trial. This episode is brought to you by Intuit QuickBooks Bill Pay. Growth is the goal, but the paperwork is a trap. If your accounts payable feels like a second job, you're doing it wrong. Enter QuickBooks Bill Pay. Reduce manual data entry, automate your approvals, and track 1099s in one place. No more chasing signatures. No more spreadsheet headaches. Just control over your cash flow and a back office that actually scales. Automate your accounts payable today at QuickBooks.com slash bill pay.

1:02:44Terms apply. Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments Inc. licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services.