Ep 11: Co-Parenting as a Superpower: Raising Kids Through Conscious Separation

0:00I almost yelled at my daughter once. What? And it didn't even rise to that. Sorry for all married parents out there, but like, my God is co-parenting the ultimate hack. Well, how you've done it, I will say, is. And in that moment was actually the first time I felt the love of fatherhood like pulse in my heart. I'm Tony Cooper. I'm host of the Dad Manual Podcast, and I'm here today with one of my favorite dads, Shane. Will you introduce yourself, please? My name is Shane Metcalf. I am a great dad, and I do have some wisdom to share. Yes, that is, those are both true statements. And I'm really excited for our conversation. You know, every dad has their own circumstances. And what I've seen you do as a father and your kid is still pretty young. So you're still in your learning every day process.

1:00But what I've seen from you has been really inspirational. For me, in terms of how people can really show up as a dad they want to be and also design their family how they want it to be. So thanks for being here. And I want to just start by having you tell me about your kid. In general, I'm in a season of life where I feel like I'm winning in a lot of areas. You know, it's been a journey of struggle and perseverance to get where I am in kind of the whole picture. And yet also being a dad and doing family and raising my child who's, she's almost six. And that is just one area where I'm like, I am fucking crushing being dad. Like there's just no doubt about I am so deeply proud of how I'm showing up as a father. And that feels really good. And obviously we want to have humility

2:03because no doubt my kid is going to find all kinds of ways of like, you know, I hate you because this is what you didn't do or whatever it is. But I am really thrilled that the choices that I've made and the work that I've put into my own self development and my own healing in order to show up the way that I am for her. And just really like getting that it's the relationship that I have with her now as a five year old, as a six year old, that is going to inform the relationship that we have for the rest of our lives. It's not gonna be like all of a sudden she's a teenager and out of nowhere her attachment style to me just appeared. Like this is the foundation. The quality of how much she trusts me now is how much she's gonna trust me as a 16 year old, as a 36 year old. And there's almost like a pressure to that of like, wow, like don't have acid.

3:05Right. I want a lifelong friendship with my kid. I really hope that she's gonna be thrilled to either stay close to home, which is such a funny thing. Before I had kids, I was like, oh man, you just have to like make it through 18 years and then you get rid of that. And now I'm like, oh shit, like I hope she wants to hang out with me way more than I wanted to hang out with my parents as an adult. Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure she already does. Compare age per age. There's gotta be much more of a desire in that. And my parents used to tell me that the biggest opportunity when your kids are young is making friends. Like you're never gonna have a time in your life where it's gonna be easier to make friends. And they were right. Like, I mean, you get to be friendly with all these parents of your kids' friends. But when you were just talking, I was like, actually, I think the thing, the biggest opportunity in when your kids are young

4:06and or growing or when they're kids, when you're parenting is your own growth, your own personal development. And so, you know, for you to be, it was six, five, six, something like that. For you to be going like, I'm crushing it already, you know, definitely points to the work you did on yourself, the healing and the growth you did before becoming a dad. And then what would you say is different in the growth in work you've been doing and healing yourself since she's been born as opposed to before? When we have kids, it's this incredible opportunity to revisit our entire childhood. And there's almost like a fractal pattern of, like, she's almost six. And so it's like, who was I? What was it happening in my childhood when I was five, six? What were the unmet needs? And so getting to a redo my own childhood through raising her is such a cool experience.

5:07And so, you know, the audience is dad, so we all know this, but it's like the level of naivete about what it actually is to have a kid, you know, before you have a kid and we're just naive. We just don't understand it. The level of full contact extreme sport that parenting is. And then it is going to really reveal like how, where are our triggers? Where are our anger issues? Where are our impatience? Where are our control issues? Yeah. And so the difference is this is like you have this, this little person that is going to reveal your shadows. That's a reality check. How much have I really tempered my temper? How much self-control do I have when I'm negotiating with a terrorist and all I wanna do is use force

6:10to crush her will so that I can get out of the fucking house on time or get back in the car and drive on to my next thing that I actually need to do as an adult. I have real responsibilities. And yes, person gives zero F's about what? And so it's, you know, like what's the difference? I mean, I feel like it's all a continuous stream, right? Like evolution, growth, transformation never stops. It's always something to do. I cannot rest on my laurels and be like, oh, you know, I drank a bunch of ayahuasca in 2012 and I did some therapy and I did some, did some like healing work back then and now I'm just coasting. It is this constant invitation to keep working on ourselves. And it doesn't have to be a laborious self development. It's just like what would love do? How do I continue to lean in to being a kinder,

7:12gentler, more loving man? As well as bringing in masculine authority and boundaries and guidance and, you know, not just giving into the demands of the terrorist who has nothing else to do all day than like negotiate as hard as they possibly can in order to get what they want. Yeah, great life skills just don't apply on to me, right? I just want you to have those. It's not inside of a family dynamic. And, you know, the idea of like healthy versus unhealthy masculinity and so as you're talking about that, the, you know, your kids trigger you, your kid triggers you, your natural response is you get angry, you get tense, your body, you know, gets flooded with adrenaline and you know what the advantages you have are. You're bigger, you're stronger, you're louder. You have more anger and you were raised, you know, I don't know how you were raised Shane, but, you know, it's embedded in us.

8:12Like that, I think the thing that you, I like what you said, I wanted to dig in a little more about like you get to look at your childhood through the lens of the child. And you're like, man, just stuff comes out of you. And you're like, where the fuck did that come from? And it was so easy. It was like, it seemed like the right thing to do, but it's like, man, that happened to me. I'm passing it on. And so I love what you said is like, what would love do? That's a great, like if you catch yourself doing it, that's a huge fucking great question to ask yourself in the moment. What was it like? What did you see when you started seeing your six-year-old self, like come back into your mind's eye as you're watching your six-year-old happen? What did you see from your childhood? And for me, it was like, okay, what were the needs that I didn't have met as a kid? I mean, are we clear about that? Were you, did you know that going into parenting? Yeah, yeah, I was pretty clear. And what was, what was some of that that you had? I mean, I proactive dental care. Like the two commitments I made,

9:12like I had a fuckload of dental problems as a kid. It was misery. It was absolute terror, right? Being a young child and having an abscess and not having, you know, my family, my parents bless them, right? Like they're incredible humans and they rejected kind of middle upper class Americana culture in order to go on their own spiritual journeys. And they kind of rejected materialism. They thought that was the path to truth. And there's some validity to that, but it also left them really broke and scrambling to just have the basic physical needs covered. Right. And so like, you know, two that come to mind was like the like dental care and swimming, right? Like I had to learn how to swim as an adult. Yeah. And it's it continues to be my journey. And like what a rewarding I love swimming so much. I love water. It was like, okay, my kid is going to have,

10:15we're going to take great care of her teeth and she's going to learn to fucking swim. And check boxes, how how the teeth and how's the swimming? Not a single cavity. Okay. Which is the only one of her peers that I know. Like, right. Like that's not that common. And she is, I can throw her in the deep end and walk away and hop on a Zoom call and do a podcast. And it's gonna be great. And so I'm so proud of that. And there's a way that it's like that. I give that gift to myself. I give that I get to revisit. I get to like heal my own inner child. He didn't get those things by seeing my spawn thrive in those whizz. Right. And that's just the coolest thing. Hans. You know, because I think it's like, we all are doing our best, right? Like my dad broke the generational cycle of physical abuse. Yep. And I think my dad spanked me once. Okay. And the fuck out of me. Right.

11:15But there was a lot of verbal abuse in our family. Yeah. Right. There was so much yelling. There was so much just like, you know, using anger and voice and yelling to try to control. And you know, like God bless them. They have three boys, you know, and man, like insanity, yeah, absolutely insanity. Yeah. But he, he never really physically abused us. And I am like one of the things I may be the most proud of as a father is I almost yelled at my daughter once. What? And I, and it didn't even rise to that. And I've never, I've never yelled at my daughter. And it's not like she's just, you know, an easy kid all the time. But what is she a strong willed child who has her deep, the irrational feelings and desires and lines in the sand that she says she's going to die on. Right. All right. Walk, Shane. Walk me through the process though,

12:16because I know the impulse is there. Right. Certainly it was bedded in you. So it's unconsisting. You're unconscious. And there's a certain point of like frustration arises. And then it starts to rise up in you probably before you even noticing it. What do you do to prevent it? Well, I just go yell at her mom. I just take it back on other people. You know, like it's interesting because there was like almost just an internal decision I made that I'm just not going to do that because I know it's not actually going to be effective. And, you know, props to the book hunt down their parent, which if you, if anybody hasn't read it, highly recommend it. It's probably my favorite parenting book out there. Awesome. And it's this woman who goes and lives with a couple of different indigenous tribes around the world and learns about their parenting and phenomenal look really, really just dripping in wisdom. And obviously, you know, there's things that I've applied and things that I haven't applied. But one of the things that really stood out to me was the

13:18Inuit. So she goes and lives with an Inuit tribe and learns about how they parent. And their culture is like the, the, the most gentle form of parenting. There's a lot of wisdom in it. But one of the things that really stood out to me was that like, when you, when you use anger or yelling to try to influence your children, they just stop listening to you. And then, and then you just have to escalate it further. And you might get compliance to some degree. But I think that it's really, it starts to break that trust. And they're like, fuck you. Like, whatever, I'll do the minimum effective dose to get you off my back. Yeah. And then I'm just going to stop telling you the truth. And just harbor this into you the moment you raise your voice, I'm going to stop listening. And that one really hit, you know, and I think for me growing up where there was a lot of yelling, it's just like, yeah, that was really damaging. Yeah.

14:19And so there was, I just made that internal decision like, OK, I'm just not going to yell at my daughter. And I, you know, like, I have a approach. I've read, started to read line before. Like, mostly when, like, she won't get in the car seat or wouldn't get in the car seat. And it's like, I have places to go, you little shit. Yeah. And just melting down. And, but I'm able to, I'm able to come back from that edge. And it really was, was an internal decision I made. Like, that is not how I'm going to parent. Yeah. And it's not like, I don't have fire in anger. And it's like, I wish I could have done that with her mom. I wish that I had never raised my voice with her. Because in the moment, it seems like, yeah, this makes a ton of sense. Like, this is how I'm going to be heard. Right. And low and behold, I've actually never worked with her mom either. Right. I don't know who it does work with.

15:19And I'm like, yeah, exactly. Like, do we listen when people yell at us? No. It's, it's definitely the biggest scars I carry from my childhood. And like, as you were talking through that, it was like, I think I had about a very similar experience as yours. And I was like, what I have preferred more actual physical beatings than the yelling that I got may be. Because there's wounds heal a lot faster, I think. Yeah, yeah, right. There are, there, like, you know, mental, like, verbal and emotional wounding shows up on the brain, apparently, in a similar way as physical abuse. Yeah. And so, you know, it's, um, that one I'm really proud of, because it's not, I don't think that's that common. Like, I have a lot of friends and I know they lose their shit on their kids sometimes. And I'm just like, I have never lost my shit on my kid. Wow. And that's like part of where I feel like I'm just like, really winning and being a dad is that it's like, I've done enough work on myself to overcome the primal instinct to use force. Right. To just dominate, to subdue the other, you know,

16:23the opponent in that situation. And, you know, so, so I also like, I'm separated and co-parenting and like, low key, sorry for all the married parents out there, but like, my God is co-parenting the ultimate hack for how you've done it, I will say, is it's extraordinary what you and all you have created. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'd love to hear. I mean, I know of it somewhat, but I'd love to hear about like how you got there because I know it was not an easy path. And where you've gotten to is just, you know, like, yeah, you know, I really, I am that's another thing really, really proud of because we get to, we get to be best friends and we get to keep loving each other and being a family and hang out and, you know, do holidays together and travel together and party together and keep our community together and intact and not like create the weird division that can have nobody to pick friends at the end of it all. Yeah. And, and yeah, my God, did that take a lot of work.

17:25And, you know, we were together for 14 years and those last years where we were really like, okay, like, there's there's deep things that aren't working and can we make it work? And we put, we invested a lot of energy into how do we heal our relationship and ultimately, we still chose separation. Right. Every ounce of effort we put into learning how to listen better, right? How to listen to not respond, but listen to understand how to the, all the frameworks of got men and the four horsemen and, you know, we did, I mean, hundreds of hours of therapy and coaching. And what I realized now is that like, wow, that was the best investment for now this new relationship we have as deeply loving, affectionate co-parents. Yeah. You know, I still love her. I'm still like, and that's, as, you know, it's been about 18

18:27months and as the like, the pain and the resentments and the unmet needs, like, those all fade into the background. What remains is devotion. Yeah. Oh, wow. I actually still love her and I want her to thrive just as I've always wanted her to thrive and I don't need to throw that out. Yeah. But it didn't come by accident, right? It came from years of, of us having a shared value system around transformation is one actual thing. Yeah. And that's a really big one is we both are committed to doing our work and that has made all the difference because it allows us to be account, both be accountable. And yeah, we slip into our, you know, hurt wounded parts here and there. But like, man, like we have like, you know, the tracker, the end of our marriage, we were like joking about having like, you know, like an factory like days since last accident, days since

19:30last horrible fight. And we'd like, we made it to three days, you know, and, and now it's months and months and months of, of real harmony. And man, there's just nothing better than having a partner where you get to share the irrational obsession of, of your child with another person who really gets it. Other people, right, close friends that love your kids, that's really cool. Parents, really cool. But the person that you co-created that being with, had to get to still maintain that open channel of sending the picks and laughing about the weird shit they do and talking about how incredible they are, it's, that is just so fun. I mean, the fact that you, you still love each other, you still trust each other, you're continuing to build on your relationship. And, you know, what I want you guys to go through was you were, it seemed to me that you were as intentional at

20:31ending the relationship, as most people are at starting your relationship, like building it up, building and, and towards something and all the intense you put into like a wedding or ceremony or, you know, a birth. And, and you guys really put a significant amount of effort into unwinding what you had to create something new, which I've just not seen a really great example of that before. Oh my God, I mean, we are bound for life, you know, and I've seen plenty of examples of people that just like go to the scorched earth approach, and, and it's understandable, and I have moments of that, and where, where like so hurt, so misunderstood, and it's just like, okay, cool, you want to go to war, I'll fucking go to war, and it's tempting. It was so like, oh, there's an intoxication to that. And I'm, I'm, I'm really grateful because it, it just, man,

21:34none of us need more fighting and drama in our lives. And also, it's like, that's where kids in divorce can get really fucked up. Yeah. That's where kids in, in families get fucked up, is when mom and dad aren't, aren't operating out of a high balance in the love bank, and you're, and there's just so much emotional debt that's being carried. Yeah. It's then what we pass on to the kids. And so it's like, yeah, how do we, how do we smart about this? And they internalize it, and they make it about them, even though there's nothing to do about them. So how did you navigate, how did you guys navigate Ava's experience through it? We started out by doing the nesting model where we kept one house where she stayed for the first six months. And me and, and my wife were by moving in and out of. So we would just split the week. We do a two, two, five, five model, two days on, two days off, five days on, five days off, which is a phenomenal way of hoping.

22:35Okay. Like they, it's like enough time to like actually have some freedom and go do real things, but also it's not so much time that the kid starts to lose attachment to that parent. Right. And so we did that for the first six months. So it was a really easy transition. And then we kept doing our own work and counseling and, and just like making sure that we were addressing the things that needed it to be addressed. But how, how old was she at the time? She was four. Okay. So there's probably not a whole lot of, no, she wasn't like intellectual processing of it. We knew that it was going to be our, our emotional energy. Yeah, that you would pick up on. Yeah. And my God, our girl did, is, you know, we keep, we're looking for like, okay, where are the signs of dysregulation? Where are, where might she be acting out? And for everything we can tell,

23:37she is just like surviving in this. She loves having two rooms. She doesn't like put up a fight when it's time to make the transition. Yeah, so I got to get a lot of credit to her, to our daughter, because I think it's her capacity to roll with it as well. And then I think that another amazing thing about co-parenting, and yes, to like co-parenting is a lot easier when you get to do it with your best friend and not your worst enemy. Right. But also like the mega upside to it and why it's like, you know, I think people shouldn't be over the attach to spending the rest of their lives with the person that they have a kid with. Yeah. Like I get to be an adult half the time. I get to resource myself and reclaim those parts of me and go be a bachelor and date and have friends and travel and sleep in.

24:37And you know, like all the things that we get to do and we're not parents, I regain half of my life as not a parent. And I always try to like, like, it's funny because it's like, you know, a lot of people are in unhappy marriages. Yes. And staying together for the kids. Right. And look, I'm a huge fan of like do everything you can to stay in a relationship and use the pain that it elicits as an access point for your own healing. And I think a lot of us like hit the eject button prematurely on relationships before we've really alchemized the triggers that are getting discovered. Yeah. And it's relationship is the cauldron of transformation. Relationship is this remarkable place we get to do our deepest healing because it hits on poor things. But if you've done that and it's still like, yeah, like there's not alignment. Don't be afraid of being a single parent.

25:39And obviously sometimes like, you know, doesn't always, the cookie doesn't crumble into like a harmonious 50-50 and I get that, right? So I'm more speaking to the possibility of coming into into alignment with what the relationship wants to be now. Yeah. It feels like the ultimate parenting act is like divorce your partner. Remain best friend, yeah. Remain best friends that be generous in spirit and everything else. Yeah. And regain some degree of freedom that parenting inherently takes away. Yeah, it's a little bit of a, it's a little bit of a pipe dream like in for a married person who's just like the idea of like, man, I wouldn't love to just have a little bit of time like myself, which you really, you know, which is possible, I guess. Like, and I think about it, you know, it's a tension. Yeah, I have this conversation with a lot of my friends who are married and don't want to get divorced.

26:40How do you, how do you not be codependent in parenting? And in marriage, I mean, that's a hell of a question. It's a big question. Like, I, because I found single parenting actually easier than parenting together, because you're not, what happens is, okay, if you're parenting, then I'm parenting. And if I'm parenting, then you're parenting. And we have to do it all together. We have to suffer equally. And a lot of people, I mean, you know, it's top, yeah. Like, we all know the suffering part as well. And it's like, no, like, learn from the co-parents. Like, take weekends. Like, like, what are the, what's the baby steps where every, every week, one of you gets a full free day from the obligations of parenting. Yeah. And, and I'm convinced there is, like, somebody needs to write a book about how to, like, get some of the benefits of co-parenting in a marriage

27:43in a family, a whole unit. Well, that somebody might be you. Yeah, I don't know that I'm maybe, because like, you really have to be like, I don't think it is me because I think it needs to be somebody who is still with their partner and their parent. Yeah, but, yeah, but you've achieved something that most people don't, and you can reverse engineer it back into like, what could I have done when I was married? So you do have all the ground that was covered. The other benefit, because all that, it sounds great. But the other benefit is that you, each individually, get to develop a relationship with your kid. Yeah. Because most kids relate to mom and dad, or mom and mom, or dad and whatever your relationship is. It's a collective. Like, you're the kid, and they're like the executive team. Yeah. But being able to have that one-on-one development or relationship is really like, make sure she has a very different relationship with you than all you. I think it's really amazing as a dad, because obviously, there's plenty of exceptions to this, but I think in general, children want mom,

28:43more than they want dad, right? Yeah. Like, that's just like, who would it be early on, yeah? Yeah, who wouldn't want the mother, the unconditional loving presence of the mother, then dad. And, and again, that's a massive generalization. But I mean, biologically, I grew inside of my mother. I was nourished by my mother. I was nurtured by my mother in most cases. Like, it's in your DNA. Yeah. And so getting so much one-on-one time with my daughter is profoundly beneficial for our relationship. Yeah. Because I get to then be the safe haven. Yeah. I get to be the mother in some sense. How does that show up? What do you mean by that? Yeah, just that like, if she hurts herself. Uh-huh. Because she normally, she would go to mom too. She goes to you. Yeah, exactly. I get to be that safe haven. Right.

29:45And so I would say that I've always felt close to my daughter. I know some, some men it takes a while till the baby smiles or starts talking to form a relationship. I've, you know, from day one. I mean, you know, another part of our journey is it took us many years to get pregnant. And so we had like a lot of chances to like, okay, yeah, let's not be parents. Yeah, let's, let's get the two-seater sports car and travel to the world, you know. Yeah, you know, there's something to that. Not, not, not a bad option. But we really wanted our kid. And we chose her again and again and again. And in fact, this is actually a fun story that I'll just relate cause it feels, you know, like just the power of being a parent is that there's a couple of years into trying to get pregnant and, you know, the ups and the downs of that. And there's a moment of real like hopelessness. And I had this experience where I, I had a thought experience. Like a hopelessness like a, like is there something wrong with me hopelessness or like this will never happen

30:47on the very small light. Maybe this won't happen. Uh-huh. Maybe, maybe the cars that we have just aren't gonna be a winning hand for having a kid. And I had this thought, like it was almost like a vision, thought experiment, where I was like, if I, if my kid was already alive, and they were in the hospital, yeah. And they had some kind of a terminal illness or injury or something. I would do everything in my power to keep my child alive. Yeah. I would not listen to statistics and I would bend reality to support my child being alive. In that moment, I realized that all, that that's what, like, I wasn't gonna stop loving my child into existence. And in that moment was actually the first, first time I felt the love of fatherhood,

31:50like pulse in my heart. Wow. And I was like, whoa. Wow. She's already teaching me how to love. Yeah. Yeah. Oof. That's, that's some deep shit, man. That is beautiful. Like that, like that, that's the, like the fulfilling of the contract. You're like, all right, I'm ready. Like there was a signal to the spirit world. Like, all right, I'm ready. Now I can do this. And that makes me think of another, one of the ways that things that I do when I'm like annoyed as hell with her is a thought experiment of like, if I came from the future, if a future version of myself time traveled back to this day and said, this will be the last day you ever get to spend with your kid, because either you die or they die tomorrow, get present to that. And then it just, it's just like, oh, yeah. Drops the bullshit. But I'm like, wow.

32:52I love you so much. Yeah. How do I build the bridge of connection? Yeah. And I imagine that that's probably an easier thought experiment as a co-parent because you actually do have these times where she's not there. And like you can make that mean and whatever you want to make that mean. And you could drop fear into that and you can easily go like, oh shit, what if those five days that I do as a weather never ended? Yeah. Whereas it would have to really be, I really appreciate that exercise. It's a really good one. So as a parent who's like, man, part of it, like, especially as it goes on years and years and years, your kids are just always there. And while you totally love them, and like there's a certain point of like, there's just a enoughness to it. Like, okay, I've had enough already. Yeah. You know? It's a, it's really nice to miss our kids. Yeah. Yeah. But it's flavor. But I love what you're suggesting. It's like in that moment where I'm like, all right, enough, I don't need to hear about this anymore. I'm like annoyed or whatever to drop in and like,

33:52if it were my last day, would I entertain that feeling that I just had? And you'd be like, no fucking way. Like, that's a beauty, that's like, that's talking about it. I mean, it's not very different from like the death awareness as a, as a kind of foundational spiritual practice. Yeah. Right? Momentum worry. Remember, you too will die. Mm-hmm. And it's just like, yeah, like tomorrow is not given, right? So like, we don't even, we don't need to be parents to use this, right? This is like, holy shit, I am alive today. Yeah. And am I going to take my life for granted and just be caught up in the bullshit of life? Or am I going to like, open my eyes and take a pause and feel the sweetness of air filling my lungs and breathing life into me? And I get to do the things, I get to do everything because I'm alive. Yeah. And gratitude. Yeah. So like, I think just like keeping that perspective is not only a good thing for a happy life,

34:54but really good for parenting. Very good for parenting. So I'm a big believer in the, in the, in the, like, absoluteness of seven-year cycles and like how we complete things in that time period. And I was just going like a you and all you were together for 14-year, so two full cycles. So like, you know, that's always the option at the end of a seven-year cycle is like, do we want to continue this or not? And I think it's really healthy to be able to go like, we've completed what we set out to do. And now it's up to us to generate whatever the next seven-year cycle would be. So the fact that you guys decided let's do something different tracks. And then I'm going, all right, now it is almost seven, right? So you're completing your first seven years with her. And so I, you know, I know how much you prepared yourself and then brought intention into what, what it's gonna be like to have a kid, but you're gonna have a different kid for the next seven years. So what are you thinking about that? How are you preparing for what this next iteration of her life

35:55is gonna be in that next seven-year cycle? Yeah. You know, one of the things that is interesting that feels like it's coming online is like taking my, taking a more masculine approach to parenting, meaning holding stronger boundaries with her, not like doing family dinners, and it not being as casual as it's been, not being afraid of her melting down when she doesn't get what she wants when I'm holding a boundary. So it's actually, for me, it feels like bringing in healthy boundaries is hard of what this next seven-year cycle is about. And obviously not being overly rigid because we want boundaries to be in service of something and not just because I'm the man and listen to me and this is my house, you know, like holding her to lean into the discomfort more, more encouragement around doing things that scare her

36:56or that are uncomfortable. Yeah, and that's, you know, it's a balance of like, how do we allow them agency to pursue the things that they really love and that excite them and that they find natural? Well, also not just giving into like, well, you don't want to do more swim lessons or you don't want to do swim teams to find whatever, I'm just back off. Oh, this is what we're doing. Yeah. And I think there's a balance because I think there needs to be a really deep listening inside of that as well. So that we aren't just shaping our kids into who we want them to be, but we're really listening for who are they and who do they want to be and provide enough control that it goes in the right direction while not slipping over into our own agenda. Well, it's particularly, I found interesting in the second seven-year cycle is like, that's the emergence of ego. So up until this point, she's kind of operated without ego and almost operated without clear identity of herself.

38:01And that's what changes is she becomes, she starts becoming herself with an ego. And what you just said is really, really powerful because the ego, the eye, the identity wants to feel that they have some ability to be part of manifesting their reality. And so I like what you're saying a lot in terms of like it's, yes, there's different boundaries and lines that have to get drawn because she's gonna, you know, now look into explore more. And to be able to do that, like they have logic and they have reason in a way and kind of converse in a way and you know, you're a great communicator, her mother's a great communicator. And so like all of that, she's probably way ahead of her peers and her ability to hold a real conversation but also be aware of herself, her needs, her emotions and being able to elicit those. And you know, we're not co, you're co-designing but you're not like co-deciding.

39:03Yeah. And so that's, I really, I think you're leaning in the right direction and that I'm so interested in. I mean, you know, like in the fascinating thing about parenting is it's always a mystery. It's like, yeah. I don't fuck, I have no clue. Right. What my strategy is gonna be for the next seven year cycle. Yeah, right. As the, it's like from seven to 14 is such a rich place of the, like in one system, I really like the Genkis. Like they talk about like one to seven or zero to seven is like the physical body and the spirit are essentially being developed. And then seven to 14 is the emotional body. That's where her issue is forged. And 14 to 21 is IQ. And obviously, you know, they all like play into each other. But I have attention of like, oh, yeah. Like as she gets that ego, as she has that deeper sense of self and her emotional body is really forming. It's like, oh, how do I, how do I roll with those punches?

40:04And you know, almost six year old girl is just heaven, you know, a 14 year old girl, I have no clue. And like, like nobody does because everyone is, every kid is, is so unique. Right. Like I have such an appreciation for the, for nature over and nurture. Yeah, what's your take on that? I think we really do come in with something coded. Yeah. And obviously there's epigenetics. And so it's like there's so many distant echoes of behavioral imprinting and nurture that are coming down the line and forming who we are that are so out of our control as parents. But it's like, I don't know, like she has her own personality. Me and her mom are very extroverted, very, very social people. She is so introverted that still will like barely talk to almost every adult that hasn't made it into her inner circle.

41:05Yeah. And it's just unapologetic about it. Yeah. That gives no fucks. There's no people pleasing. He's like, oh, you're trying to talk to me? Well, I guess I'll like entertain you by saying hi. She's like, well, you don't exist. So what's the, what's the nurture component then? So she's this nature, this force of nature, like what's the nurture component? Yeah, well, I mean, on this one, and this gets to be, it's this balance of like, like holding her is perfect. Like being like, cool, you don't want to talk to people, you don't want to talk to nothing wrong with that. Well, simultaneously, really pushing her out of her comfort, like encouraging her out of her comfort zone. Yeah, yeah. So helping her understand that if she wants to be an actress and perform in the frozen musical, well, actresses usually need to talk to other adults. There's a real conversation, yeah.

42:06And she's like, huh. Yeah. All right, I'll consider it. Like that makes sense. Nice. And what I love about that chain is that you're connecting to a change of behavior that's looking to foster, but connecting to her intention and her desire, what she wants, not just like society needs you to be or it'd be rude if like you're really channeling it into her own desires. That's powerful. Yeah. And then nurture is our attachment style. Like, are we there? Do we meet her emotional needs? Do we have, have we had a lot of actual physical, skin-to-skin contact? Yeah. Do we repair with her? Do we listen to her? Do we treat her big feelings as something that needs to be fixed versus actually have capacity to let her feel her feelings? All the way through. I think also nurture is like physical play. We talked a little bit about that. Up is like, I love rough housing with her and all of her girlfriends.

43:07Yeah. And this usually like everyone usually talks about that with their sons, but yeah, yeah, but you're talking with girls. Yeah, and like we go hard. Like her and her little friends are like bloodthirsty ninjas out for murder. And I'll take four or five of them on at a time and it's like, and I don't hold back really. Like I'm throwing them, and you know, like I play pretty rough with them, and they love it. Love it. Yeah. Like why do you think that's not happening in the life of most girls? Like clearly, if the evidence is they love it, not all of them, but if they love it, why is it happening more? Yeah, like, you know, like, I, like, look, I mean, I am a bit of a genderist on some degree, to some degree, right? Just like, we never, we never, we never encouraged anything around princesses and pink. Michael loves princesses and public. But I do think that we fall into this, like, oh, we can rough house with boys,

44:07but like, you need to be gentle with girls, right? And I just, I don't know, like, I think that's an outdated myth. You know, it just feels intuitive and natural to play full out and be really physical. Yeah. And yeah, she loves it. She can't get enough. And I just encourage all the dads out there, like, rough house with your kids as much as you possibly can. Don't buy them toys, right? Buy a balloon and play Keepee Uppy. And, you know, like, whatever it is, like the physicality, I think, especially in the early years, is so important for embodiment. And of course, we have to be, we have to be embodied ourselves. To do that, right? We have to be able to feel our own body in order to know where the edge is, where too much is too much. And that is, that is, and that's why it's all,

45:07like, it's so beautiful, like, we have kids, we think that we're here to raise them. But really, like, they're here to raise us, they're here to grow us up. Yeah. For us to become a more integrated version of ourselves, to reclaim loss, fragmented inner children that are running a muck in our own house, and feed them, and take them to the dentist, and give them swimming lessons, so that we can actually be more integrated adults. This has been great, Shane. I really, just fascinated by this conversation. I want to wrap it up, and I want you to think about, maybe yourself before you became a dad or any of the new dads listening who are looking for just some guidance tips advice on how to start what their fathering journey is. And so what advice would you have for a brand new dad? You know, worship the ground that their mothers walk on. Boom. Yeah, we have all of our things that drive us crazy

46:08about moms, their mom, but they are the vessel that makes us a father. They are the irreproducible piece of the puzzle. It allows us the gift of having children in our lives, and that is worthy of real respect and love. And so that is like one of the first ones, is like nurture mom like it, and just get good at understanding each other's needs, and have a map out the needs of each other, and then get good at meeting them. It's just like basic economics. You want a happy relationship, like make more deposits into the love bank than you make with trolls. And you need the map. You need the understanding of what are the things that actually are deposits, and what are the things that are with trolls. They master that, and you'll have a fucking great relationship and you can stay in romantic love for the rest of your life.

47:08Yeah. Easier said than done. But that's, I mean, this is about growth. This is about getting ourselves out of our own way to have what we want and raise amazing kids and have incredible families. And so that's beautiful. That's beautiful. And you know, it's like, don't give up on sex. Don't let the marriage slip into sexlessness. Yeah. Be a stand for your own needs in the relationship. Be a stand for your partner's needs. Don't take it personally when 98% of your partner's attention goes to the baby for a while. Yeah, there's more for you work on for yourself. That's your own woundedness that has a problem with them. Yes, and it sucks and it can suck because it's like, I was the center of the universe. Yeah. And all of a sudden, that's like a moon if I'm lucky. Yeah, you're a footnote. And that changes. Like that's the beauty of parenting. Is the moment you think you've,

48:12it's like, cool, we found a routine or things are the way they're going to be, it changes. Changes, it's always changing. Trust the process. Open your own heart, do your inner work. You know, keep doing the inner work. And just go ahead and enjoy the ride because what a beautiful contribution into any adult's life it is to have a child in it, filling it with the pure innocent joy, creativity, brilliance, beauty, your rationality, imagination. Yeah, it's can bring into our lives and make them a lot better if we allow them. Look, I have absolutely loved our conversation. I love you, brother. Thank you for taking the time to share all of that. I just really appreciate you and appreciate you taking the time. Yeah, and I love this idea. There's a lot of dads out there. You've got a huge market. Yeah. And there's not that many conversations. I was thinking about it as like, often parenting conversations end up

49:13as like a side note in a conversation of like, how are the kids and, you know, little moments or with other parents. But thank you for making the space to get to really express the richness and complexity and magic of parenting. My pleasure. And until next time, because we'll definitely be in next time. Thank you. All right, see you, Tony. Bye. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Dad Manual Podcast. If you liked it, please leave us a rating or subscribe to our YouTube channel. If you really liked it, please sure it was a dad you love. I'm looking to grow a community of fathers who are ready to change the world, and I need your help to do that. And if you got questions or topics you want me to explore, email them to me at the dad manual at gmail.com. I would love to answer your questions on our next episode. Until next time, I'm Tony Cooper, and this is the Dad Manual Podcast. Thanks so much for listening to Dad Manual Podcast.