Enochian Magick with Frater RC Hermetic Podcast

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1:01The sun shining, birds are singing and all feels right in the world. Until the season changes and suddenly you lose your motivation to get out of bed. In fact, one in five people experience some form of depression no matter the season or time of year. At the American Psychiatric Association Foundation, our vision is to build a mentally healthy nation for all because we want you to live your best life and be your best you all year round. Visit mentallyhealthynation.org to learn more. Welcome to the Occult Rejects, it's episode we got a couple of rejects with us and we got a brand new guest somebody we haven't hired on before, but before I introduce Fred

2:02R.C. Let me introduce the other rejects joining me and we got my man headless giant. What is going on? How you doing? You can find me at the headless giant on Twitter, on YouTube, on Rumble now and you can also find my shows on Monday night. We do Monday Alchemy with Aeros Up, she was just on, she's with a solid person to have on there and two days we've got seven, seven, seven with Nick and Thursdays we've got the magical mail bag, Aeros is supposed to be making an announcement on the mail bag this Thursday so she's got that video coming out so that's going to be awesome so to do for that tomorrow and Sundays try logs with Ethan and at some point during the week I do a show with jewels called The Rust of Gods, that's made a killer series if you didn't always check it out. Yeah it is, it is. Thank you very much for joining us. I was really appreciate it and we got my other man, Jen, what is going on sir, how are

3:06you? What is up? Cardinal electric head, 93, Mr. 93 boss, I'll do all of your titles, obviously we just did two hardcore hours on speculative cabala, you know, in lieu of Joachim and Adam Rose. I think we did a much better show, yeah, I think it was a much more in depth conversation just put it down, yeah, grown up. So if you want to check me out, they can check me out at Threshold Saints on IGN, X Twitter as well as at my personal account at Wukong Reborn to be UK ONG Reborn, obviously we do have a gray lodge space on this Friday, speculative or Friday night in Austin Mass, I don't know what we were going to discuss today, but that day, but it'll be something cool I promise and I just dropped an episode with Greg Kaminsky, obviously from the Arcane and podcast like Baker, props you like, he's in the comments and he's coming on pretty soon in the end

4:07of the month and so yeah, I got lots of shit going on and like just watch the space because I'm doing things, thank you guys and I'm really excited and Fred or RC, thank you so much for coming and thank you Nick for inviting me because I'm actually really excited for this one. I don't know that much, but not just full disclosure, but I'm interested to learn. Yeah, me too, me too. And we got my man Robbie Mark. Thanks for having me, I don't know, of course, no thank you and Robbie Marks, please sir, the storyteller himself, let everybody know what's up with you. Hey, how's everybody doing up there? Good to come hang out, I am our Marks or Robbie Marks, I'm an artist, illustrator, researcher, I'm working on a book, working on illustrations for that book now. I also have my Metaminecast podcast, if you want to check that out, you can check out all my links that link tree are M-A-R-X and that'll pull up everything for you. And yeah, I'm excited for this too. Enochian Magic is something that I've kind of like, you know, delved in and out of over

5:07the years, numerous times and this is going to be a fun one, great to meet you, Fred or RC. Yes, and finally the guest himself, we got Fred or RC from the Mammatic podcast, please sir, let everybody know what your deal is and let everybody know what you, plug whatever you want, please. I'm Fred or RC, have the Hermetic Podcast, go to HermeticPodcast.com for more of that and I have a little cyber guild in there that you can join for free and do free classes, free workshops, free hangouts, also on YouTube. And if you are sick and tired of free stuff, then I host conferences, workshops and retreats through the Arcane Research Society for an annual membership so that we can function internationally. And Enochian Khan has been quite successful the last two years, despite the challenges of the world. So next year we'll be even bigger go to Arcane Research Society.com forward slash 2026 and see the insane guests and workshops. We will have there, including Scott Michael Stenwick, another Enochian expert who will be doing

6:12a special workshop on caco diamonds and using them for wealth, which is going to be wild and limited to only 20 people so sign up today. Well, that's awesome. Nice. How do you like the maples? I like it. I like it. Please, if you don't mind, I guess I can normally ask most people when it comes to the occult which I didn't most guess anyway. But I guess like what got you started to, how did you end up turning into Fred or RC? How did that happen? Yeah, good question. I thought about this a lot as I navigate middle age. And it's funny how you look back on life and realize in retrospect, maybe you didn't have as many choices or as much agency as you thought. I don't know if any of you have ever looked back on your lives and had that experience and been like, oh, I didn't have that many choices in how I got here, where I'm at is a bad place. It's just you can see the factors that conditioned your life.

7:14So seven years old, growing up in a yoga cult, my parents practiced yoga at least two hours a day, meditating, and by age seven, I got initiated, had a beautiful ceremony, age 10, got another initiation, and then my parents split up and that sent me on a self-discovery quest because if it didn't work for them, then why would it work for me? It was my thinking at the time. And I discovered with kawika, drudry, esotericism in general, the occult, and started practicing things until I found something that worked and what worked was the golden dawn system. What worked was an oaky and magic and other specific practices joined the golden dawn when I was 15, got a dispensation to join after much effort and including my parent being interviewed and signing a waiver, in case anyone touched me in a bad place, then there was some protection for them.

8:14Looking back, I can't believe they initiated me so young, but I was definitely worthy and I guess they made the right call because look at I've stayed in it their rest of my life and contributed as much as I can to the field of study. And oaky and magic is a particular passion of mine, mainly because I think it's so understudied, under-researched and most of the efforts to popularize it have led to it being reduced rather than explored in its original fullness. Let's put it that way. So there's a synopsis of how I got to where I'm at. Do you think it's certainly tried my life, but I did other things like I, after grad school I went to seminary, got a master's of divinity at UBC and I took a job as a game designer for a card and board game company. But then the recession happened and everyone I knew went bankrupt. I worked for a couple of game companies, but then there was no work.

9:16So it's like every time, based on when I was born, every time I started to get somewhere in a mainstream field of labor, the world said no, like unequivocally, including when no things were before COVID, things were starting to look good. I was doing some voluntary work at a church in California and applying to college jobs then COVID happened. Now after COVID, I tried to get another college job. They said, look, there's just no room for people who look like you. Oh, that's a fucking nut. The scrimmeneatory. Yeah, yeah. The college night play at universities, here's three strikers. Isn't that a charming title, three striker, like a criminal? Oh, shit. Right. Right. Yeah. You know what? I'm not talking about it if you could tell. You said before, not enough people, I guess, so at studying, you know, something along those lines. Do you think, do you think the reason for that is because it might actually be too intimidating

10:19to people? Well, yeah. There's always going to be a tendency to reduce things to its simpler forms and we've done that now with endocaine magic, right? We've given enough, as much entry level texts as I think anyone could ever want for it. And I think what it's demanding now is deeper study, rather than people just brushing off the nuances and complexities, what's the things that have remained unexplored are the very complicated aspects of it. So the practice is as simple as most magical practices to get involved in, but there's just a lot of depth that we haven't actually looked at yet. And some people are interested in the, you know, using AI to look at the nuances of some of the charts that just make no sense, really, you know, ostensibly. They're just complex number and letter charts and maybe that, well, that's one avenue that some people are exploring. There's the other avenue of the parts of the earth, the political magic aspect of it,

11:19which again, some people say it's nonsense and doesn't work and some people like Scott Stenwick have charts and evidence that it works in, especially, you know, statistically by focusing on smaller numbers, if you like, I don't know how to say it in a mathematical way, but, you know, you don't, you don't want to, if you're going to use it for, you know, lotteries, for example, he points out, play the, use it magic on small lotteries, not on the national one or on the federal one, use it in a smaller pool and same as affecting elections or anything like that. And so that's another avenue that could be explored in it. That's very exciting if you ask me, given the political instability in the world and the amount of corrupt people that go into politics, if there's any good use for a Nokia and political magic, it could maybe be to weed out corruption and encourage less corrupt people to want to be our leaders.

12:22On that angle, there is a definite political angle to the Nokia channel material that D was getting at the time like they were very explicit about the end of the world. What role do you think some of these angelic entities may be having in current political events? I think too many to be calculated, really. I think it's, it's not so much a matter of skirmishes, but all out, you know, chaos when you look at the world in terms of, if you look at reality in terms of an animistic view of everything being filled with dimonies, which is a hermetic view of the world, right? Everything is every aspect of everything has dimonies, many, many, many infinite. How many? We can't say angels, spirits, all of these things. And the hermetic could just cause them all dimonies, you know, they might distinguish between some beings like star gods or angels and other things like that, but generally it calls

13:26them just spirits. And so if all of reality is suffused with spirit and consciousness and intelligences, then I think it's, it's a massive array. It's overwhelming experience, personally, and which is why I think the techniques of magic are so important. And I think that's also why the techniques of magic have relatively speaking remained completely unchanged over time. Yeah, you hear a lot of people, especially in this day and age, say, oh, you know, the thing about magic is you get to make up your own version of it and it can be whatever you want. And it's up to you. But it's like the history of magic, adamantly speaks against that reality. The history of magic is a series of techniques that we see, especially carried in the Western Solomonic traditions. The features are unchanged. And even academics admit this, otherwise they wouldn't have approved Dr. Stephen Skinner's PhD when he applied him, you know, that's what he proved in his PhDs, like look at how

14:28nothing's changed in magic. These key techniques, these key practices, these key rules haven't changed. And when people try to change them, they revert back almost as if these new, fangled attempts to deviate from what works don't work. And I think that is the case with a lot of, when people try to sort of solopsistically just reform everything to their own species of practice, I think that's why you see a lot of that stuff. Yeah, not really working and just leading to delusion. Um, before I start asking questions like this on the side, actually, if you don't mind, uh, hey, to ask you to try to like maybe give like a basic idea of, um, guess what is an Okiean magic for people who don't even know what this is? Well, technically speaking, an Okiean magic is the name that the Golden Dawn gave to their version of D and Kelly's angelical magic. So if you want to be pedantic and sometimes it's fun to be pedantic, of course, uh, and

15:30we'll also sometimes very helpful. So this, for example, on screen, you have here is one of Wescot's wild in psychedelic tablets. Here's another Golden Dawn tablet. So the Golden Dawn took their version of D and Kelly's magic, changed it a little bit with the guidance of the secret chiefs of their order, the spirit guides of their order, or their own choir consciousness, their own noose, probably a mixture of all of those things and adapted it to meet the needs of, to fit into their system, to build the system upon it is what it looks like to me because the initiations completely hinge on an Okiean magic. So that's what the Golden Dawn did. They gave the name, they came up with the name Anokiean magic. So though, I don't mind, obviously the name Anokiean magic is used as a catch all turn. Any variety of D and Kelly's magic, right? So in colloquial terms, Anokiean magic refers to all of it, but it's very wrong to refer

16:30to the Golden Dawn magic as Anokiean magic, as, sorry, as Neo Anokiean magic, because they're the ones who made up that name for their version, right? If you made something up and gave it a name, it would be pretty insulting for me to come along and say, oh no, you're just doing Neo, whatever you called it. It's like, no, that's what you called it. So stop calling Golden Dawn magic Neo Anokiean, that's what you refer to technically anything after that. Anything based on Golden Dawn magic that changes or distorts it or it reinterprets it would be accurately called Neo Anokiean magic. For our parlance, Anokiean magic refers to the magic that D and Kelly scried from the angels who are the four archangels and showed them lesser aspects of themselves, the spirits that are composing the archangelic bodies, these vast, you know, cosmic intelligences and

17:32beings and dimonies and showed us nuanced and detailed lesser spirits that compose them and how to interact with that matrix of reality through this angelical spirit language. And whether people want to see them as angels or not, I think is less important, though you can't deny the fact that it comes from the four archangels, you pray to the four archangels to access this magic, you pray to Jesus Christ to protect you and give you authority to access this magic. And what I think a lot of people get confused about is they think it's dangerous, but they think it's dangerous after they strip out all of that. So they strip out all the stretching, they strip out, you know, putting on tensor bandages for weak angles, they take away all the safety and guardrails, they avoid any preparations that are at all described by the spirits to do this. And then they just jump in to, you know, hoping for the best. And that, of course, I find hilarious, but also sad.

18:35So we're trying to reeducate people as to a fuller understanding of the system. So each one of these tablets represent one of the four elements and each one of those elements is subdivided out over and over again into these different squares and those different squares represent a type of angelic intelligence of that square, which has the elemental effects and the letter of, because, you know, it's all broken down into a letter. But that's another question I had. I was never aware of the completion of the inocular language. Isn't there a lot more channeling that needs to take place to actually come up with the working language? Well, it's a magical language, it's not a working language, it's not a human language, it's a spiritual language. As far as, yeah, everyone who engages with it will probably channel, scry, or perhaps

19:38bring through some new information that's certainly possible. But I don't think there's a tremendous amount of value in it, like you, we've been given tools, you can reinvent those tools if you want, if there's a reason to you, but what would be the reason? Now, you mentioned something else, the tablets don't represent elements. That's only in the golden dawn version of the system that tablets represent elements. In the original version, every single quadrant of the great table, which can be divided into tablets, every quadrant has all four elements on it. Now, of course, you could say, well, in the golden dawn elemental version of the system, all four elements are there in the sub-elements as well. It's like, yes, of course, because everything's actually everywhere, and we break things up differently for the maps that we use to navigate this ultimately unknowable terrain. I think it's interesting when you go back into De and Kelly's works, the descriptions

20:45of these forces and how he details each individual one and moving through, and they're very reflective of the entities and the angelic and different building block archonic forces within the Enochian texts, and kind of carry in that forward into this system of communication. I don't know much about archonic forces in the hermetic system. Archons are positive planetary forces there to aid and guide the soul, but most of the time I hear Archons set is in the sense of opposing forces or entities that are there to prevent us from doing something. I'm not too versed in those forms of Christian ostracism myself. Again, I've been on the hermetic path since I was a young teenager, so I've sort of stayed

21:46in my lane, you could say. I wandered off a bit into the bardic world, of course, and I'm glad I did, I spent almost 20 years as a full-time musician, and no regrets there, but you're coming on the archons, I don't know how to really, I don't know, I'm just kind of trying to express the idea that these are different energetic forces within the various, they have different extensive power, and I don't want to say an ascending and descending order, but kind of in their place in the universe. Yeah, again, I don't work with Archons in any way personally, so yeah, I don't know what to say about Archons, I've never worked with Archons, I don't have any Archons in my

22:49consciousness at any point of time, except when I occasionally hear other people talk about their roles, and yeah, so are there Archons in the Anokin system? Maybe I've not come across any as such, there's kings and princes of the planets, and I work a lot with those, I guess that some people might say that they're similar to Archons, but I tend to not conflate systems too much, because they can get confusing and needlessly so sometimes, but that's fascinating, fascinating stuff, there's definitely Archons in the Hermetic tradition, except they play a positive role there to challenge and guide the soul. The Hermetic path, unlike Gnostic paths, is incredibly optimistic, and fundamentally believes that nature and materiality is a blessing and the full manifestation of God, rather than something negative or evil or debased.

23:55When it comes to anokin magic, could you explain what would be the reason people would even start looking into this as a form of magic? I suppose maybe Wica got a little boring or simple, and you needed a challenge, you got tired of drawing down the moon, and we're like, you know what I need is lots of charts and numbers that basically make no sense, that's what I need. If that's where you're coming from, jump into anokin magic in a way we go, but do you need it? Absolutely not. Now, once you've done anokin magic, you might notice that the energy is slightly different than other forms of magic if you're able to sense such things. So the sigilum damat here is funny, this is one of the sigil of God's truth, or the truth of the true God, sigilum means sigil, day means God, and emet is the Hebrew word for truth

25:01spelt out in Latin or English. This is the one symbol that we're told not to ever look on outside of a state of holiness. This is the one symbol that we never share. Obviously, we live in a commercialized 21st century in which you can buy it on Etsy. So that's fine, that is what it is. I would recommend to an anokin practitioner that once you have your sigilum damat, the five of them, the little ones for under the table legs, the big one for the altar, I would recommend that you keep them carefully wrapped up in a sacred place. And at that point, I would recommend maybe keeping that symbol as a sacred symbol. But yeah, as we know, we're in a post-sacred age that's perhaps trying to return to sacrality, but struggling with it. Right. When you make your own objects, it's so much more meaningful, and I think this was supposed to be carved into wax seals. So carving it into a wax seal wouldn't be too hard.

26:03I mean, in terms of preparations for it all the night, that's one of the easier ones. You just take it sector by sector and measure it out. The five is even easier than that actually. We just did a winter workshop with Dr. Terry Burns and my buddy who built most of our table and did our wax tablets. He did them up pretty quickly by just putting a printed out image of them over top of the wax and using a ballpoint pen to trace over the lines and that indents in the wax. And the great thing is, of course, the ballpoint pen also traces the lines as you do them so you can see what you've done and what you haven't done. And he did remarkably detailed work that way, and much faster than looking back and forth to an image and engraving it within piece of metal, which is what I've done in the past a great pain and suffering. So yeah, trace it over a piece of paper and done in a jiff.

27:07What is it, these wax that is supposed to be made out of? These wax, very important that it's made of these wax, can you explain any of that? In the in the Inokian system, the spirits gave incredibly detailed instructions about what the tools and table and everything should be made of. What color fabrics like they go under the table, what goes over the table. So when you look at a fully table, all you see is a white cube essentially with maybe a little bit of green silk underneath the legs, but you see white over top and then you see a crystal, you see nothing else, right? And that is something most people aren't even aware of. But imagine how different that is than most of the commercialized setups that you see. What a different mentality that puts you in when you think of a finished inokian table, not being like any of these things, but just being draped over with white cloth, the sigilums covered, all you see is a clear crystal sitting on top of a white draped cloth.

28:09And now the layers of cloth, I think, are very symbolically and spiritually important because they represent different layers of reality and energy and all of these sort of things in the nature of what this cube is. And Dr. Burns has gone to great lengths to explore the geometry and spiritual significance of all of these tools in the context of John D's greatest and most important work is Monus hieroglyphica, the hieroglyphic monad, which you can get from Boroboro's press edited and translated by Dr. Burns and Nancy Turner. And they did a great job bringing that text into a state of actual clarity for the modern reader. So yeah, the really traditionalist inokian table, and I think I've said this enough so people know, do it how you want, do whatever you want, make notes, keep a diary, and let us know how it goes. That's the official position I'm speaking for all of us on this. We don't mind whatever you do whatever you want.

29:11Just take notes and let us know. You know, if you do something daring and wild and creative in your life falls apart, just let us know. If you were obsessed and changed the world, again, let us know. We are pragmatists, magicians for the most part. But when you consider the actual tradition, I was trained in Golden Dawn inokian and I love it. But when I actually was recommended by the spirits last time I was in Prague to consider the roots and where it came from and go back to the beginning, I started to see something very different and something that for me as a Christian was really appealing because inokian magic is one of the few forms of magic that developed explicitly as a Christian form of magic. He was trying to create with a nookian what he saw as Jews having with Hebrew, as Muslims having with Arabic, right?

30:11He thought the Christians deserved to have a language that was sacred just for them and Latin, I suppose, didn't cut it for D. So a nookian was his answer. Now that's why he called it a dynamic or idanic or celestial or angelical. And the table is very beautiful. Yes, so the table is made of sweet wood. The sigilums are made of wax, wax is a very important magical tool. Of course the wax ties into the bee symbolism of the nascent rosacrucianism and Freemasonry that was only in its very early stages during D's lifetime. Freemasonry started in 1490, the first something, the first large, large zero opened up in Scotland. So that was in the air already, D was not occurring in a vacuum, D emerged out of a culture of burgeoning secret societies and collaborations of mystics and magicians.

31:14The school of night, for example, was active during his time that he was a part of. I don't know much about it, trying to find out more. So I hope more scholars will dig into those things and just hardly that recently, the school of night. Just recently I came across that. Yeah. It was like, you know, like it's not much of a Elizabethan magic club. Can you, have you ever heard of Martinism? Martinism has that same sort of mystique all throughout the years, yeah, well, they have that same sort of, a lot of people don't know that how influential they were. And a lot of new religions in the West, like voodoo and Mormonism, right? Yeah. I mean, it really emerged around the same time as the golden dawn, because through the work of Papus, right? And then had it split apart quite quickly, I think is from my understanding due to, again, a lot of political differences by the different founders and groups.

32:17But it refers back, hails back to Louis Claw to Samaritan, but it just didn't become an actual organization until the 19th century. But yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, there's a lot of Martinism available to people, and it's very popular. It's a bit more, I think it's a bit more sacramental than the golden dawn and a bit more explicitly religious, though, again, I don't want to speak for, for Martinists as I'm not yet one. Well, the, it's a lot of different traditions. The book that was written by Samaritan was about the integration of the self with God. So it's like, what is this book? You're reading it, and it seems like it's from like the 1920s sort of positive thought movement, and this is from the 1770s. And so reading this on the integration of beings is really kind of enlightening as to

33:17what really spurred on a lot of the Rosa Crucian stuff that came from the Caribbean up to Pennsylvania, you know, with the Beverly Hall, you know, and A-Morke. Well, Rosa Crucianism started in 1614, right, in Germany, yeah, not in the Caribbean, but... Well, Beverly Randolph came to Pennsylvania and brought it up to Pennsylvania. He was sort of the influence on the, on the other end of the Atlantic. Yeah, I would consider that very, you know, modern Rosa Crucianism, very, you know, completely separate from the, yeah, it's a different thing. I think chronologically the, you know, how it was in the 17th century versus the 19th and 20th century. There's no evidence of any direct connection between groups back then, and today, unless you consider Freemasonry to have sort of carried on the traditions a little bit, it's probably

34:20most evident Freemasonry being carried forward from the 17th century. But otherwise, I think most of the 19th and 20th century groups that we have are, you know, more or less inspired by these other earlier movements, which I think, again, was the purpose of these movements. I don't think they necessarily represented the organized structures that today a lot of people like to imagine they, they represent. I think they were good ideas or inspirational ideas like Louis Claude Samaritan. His teachings are very hermetic, you know, this idea of, of meeting your angel and, you know, accessing your, your news, your consciousness, which is a holy diamond, which is an angel so that when you die, your soul gets through its initiation, carried up with the diamond and you become like a god, or even better than a god, actually, according to the hermetica, you know, again, very optimistic, not just, not just like, not just any old god, better than those gods, we become twice, twice the regular tour, sort of gods, star gods and

35:24dying gods. Yeah, it's, that's a lot of fun. And the, the whole process of reconciling yourself to that higher consciousness is, is the great work. That's what we call it, right? And purifying the lesser dimonies of our souls, you know, the Scientology took that straight out of that, that idea straight out of the hermetica. Big go. Yep. Fucking Scientologist. We love your eyes. Sorry, apologize for that. There are more home Scientologists than there are people that actually belong to the Church of Scientology, which I always thought was really interesting because of exactly what Fraterus, he said, there are so many hermetic principles, magical, I mean, Alran was clearly a magician of like, at least intermediate to high order. So just in his knowledge, I'm not saying he was like, you know, a great worker or anything, but I think he knew a lot of shit. So yeah, he put a lot into that.

36:25So that's really interesting that a lot of people, and I think this is also true with Mormons, and to like go back to headless this comment about Martinism, well, there's a direct link between those two things as well. So there's so many people who may not even think of themselves as her meshesis, or even knowing magic in any capacity, but actually have a very magical outlook on reality. I mean, I'm sorry, I just thought that was interesting. Yeah, well, Hubbard, you know, learned some stuff from Jack Parsons, right? He showed up in Jack Parsons life, ran off with his wife, borrowed money, spent it on a boat, and called himself a captain, while doing copious and obscene amounts of drugs all the way, while creating a religion that is prohibited, prohibited his followers from having, from using drugs, you know, this, this complete absolute, like there's a great documentary on YouTube that's up there on Alran Hubbard and drugs in the occult. You can just Google that on YouTube, and you'll find it, and it keeps getting down,

37:30people keep putting it back up, Chris Bennett, the author put that together, and he's got at interviews with Alran Hubbard's son, in it, talking about all the crazy drugs that he was doing and forcing his son to do and stuff, you know, and it's sort of ironic, you know, fast forward to like, you know, modern day and Katie, home is complaining that she wasn't allowed to get an epidural during giving birth and stuff, right? That's the hypocrisy is shocking, but not surprising, right? Something I wanted to ask you, not to drug stream, not for the, yeah, oh, like, how many of them forbid sex, but like to the screw when everybody there, right, you know, say, like, yeah, they always do that shit, whatever they're telling you not to do, that's exactly what the leader is doing. One thing I did want to ask you, not to put you on the spot, like, you had mentioned before, like, differences in like, do you know, key magic, I guess, you know, golden dawned differences from other ones, you said you noticed a difference.

38:30Could you explain any of that, maybe? Um, doing that just the technical differences of the system, the way it's used in, yeah, I mean, they, you know, they changed the colors of the tablets, they changed them to primarily represent the elements as opposed to direction. But again, it's, that's not, those changes aren't the biggest deal in the world because, you know, they come from this great table and the great table is a way of laying out all of this stuff so that it maps into our mind in a way that we understand. One thing I get from reading the diaries is one thing, one of the things that makes it really, me really believe in the authenticity of the spirits they're talking to is the spirits frequently say things that just, it doesn't make sense that you would, you would, you would come up with on your own. Well, first of all, the spirits forced D to do a lot of things he didn't want to do. Like, he, when he first showed up, when D went to go talk to the Holy Roman Emperor, Rudolph

39:32the second after just arriving in town, D just wanted to play politics and maybe get it, you know, support, financial support and all this. But the angels were clearly showing the, in the diaries, they're like, no, you have to go in, demand all these things of him, demand he changed his life, demand he do these things. Otherwise, it's the end of the world. And he's like, please, no, I can't do that. I can't do that. And the spirits were like, well, you know, it'll happen if you don't do what we say. You know, so D sure enough, D goes in and raves and rants like a madman and Rudolph's like, who is this nut job? Let's get him out of here. And that was this, you know, that was a, that was a decision that D made because of the spirits. And that's very interesting. Me and other time, D said when he's trying to sort of cut corners on the initiatory process that the angels are laying out to begin practicing in Okian magic, D's like, well, okay, do I really have to write a prayer to each one of these spirits prior to working with it to

40:34initiate myself into the watchtowers? And the spirits are like, yes, a short prayer from your heart, you know, from your own good human mind will suffice as God inspires you to do so. And he's like, well, he's such a systematized or he really wants more detail. And he says, well, what would that look like? And the spirits are like, how would we know we don't have a human mind? We don't even understand how you work. Like don't ask us. We're part of God in a different way than you're part of God. And so if you have to write a prayer to God from your own soul and mind and inspiration, we wouldn't know what that looks like just like we can. You know, so this, this, this, this textual evidence of, of real alien consciousness that it is not placating most of the time what the humans have, as set up as their own sense of expectation, morality, or cultural norms, right?

41:36The spirits just don't care. And this is a part of a lot of magical training, training magicians, how to handle spirits, because it's not that they don't necessarily have your best at heart. It's just they're not human. They don't know what it's like to be human. They can't communicate to you in a way that is necessarily always going to be beneficial for, for flourishing in your life. They might have other priorities or limited points of view, just like we're limited in our points of view. I wanted to ask also that, is there, if you were to work with the tablet, is there any certain particular rituals that you would do prior or don't why using it? Yeah. I recommend starting with, I recommend starting with the first aspect of the system that was laid forth, the Heptarchy Amistica, and I have a little intro course that you guys can check out on that, if you go to inokiengrimwar.com.

42:39And that just gets you working with the Grimwar, it's an introduction to Grimwaric magic in general through the Heptarchy Amistica, taking you step by step 10 days through your first operation. And the preparations for that, I think, are very clearly laid out in these diaries and the spirits make it very clear what you should do to begin that process. And once you've gotten familiar with it, I think then you can look towards the watchtowers and the watchtower initiation. Now I'm speaking purely from, for those who are interested in taking a traditional approach to the system. And in that approach, you know, this is something, a journey that would take up many years of your life. You can, you know, do what a lot of people have done in the last several decades and just chop it up and do little bits and bobs and hope for the best, of course. That's just not what I'm interested in doing anymore. So approaching it cautiously and also faithfully with the prayers and practices so that you grow in closeness to God through these spirits.

43:42You know, these, these archangels have laid forth these matrices of spirits for us to better know the archangels. That's how I look at them. You know, we've been doing the evocation of the archangels in the less original, the pentagram for many years, a lot of us. But how do we get to know these angels better, especially archangels? Well, in the Anokin system, they've laid forth a path that can be easily and clearly walked in the initiatory journey, the 19 day initiation to initiate yourself into the watchtower. It is a self initiation, like most great initiations, it's a self initiation, same as similar to the Abra mellan. And you write out all these prayers, you do these prayers daily in the morning at sunrise, just like in an Anokin magic, it seems that when you have this alter set up, the table, the holy table of practice and it's all covered in white, my own research has uncovered that it looks like you're meant to do it in the sunshine. So all these people, like myself, included who have been doing an Anokin magic by candlelight

44:45in dark black walled temples for decades, may have been missing out on a major aspect of effectiveness by not doing these rituals in the sunshine. So there's some new information that I found in an unpublished manuscript and then confirmed its veracity with the help of Joseph Peterson and some other scholars who were like, you're not crazy, that looks like what you found. So who knows, try it out and find out. So answer the question. Yeah, unless there was anything else you left out, I don't know, you did mention the watchtower ritual. So the watchtower ritual is a golden dawn ritual made by regard, oh, he said it was only in the golden dawn for like less than two years. Really? He only was. Yeah, he didn't really, he wasn't really interested in being trained or at all, he just sort of showed up the bare minimum to get the documents and see the initiation ceremonies and despite

45:50it being a very highly functional and temple full of amazing people, he could have learned from and worked with. He didn't seem that interested, but he then did try to become the secretary for the New Zealand temple that he had heard about. And of course, when they heard about his conduct in the England temple that initiated him, they were not interested at all in what he was having to offer because it did sort of seem like he was just on a manuscript finding mission and the more evidence that comes out about that, the more the clear that seems to be the case. I mean, I have a letter written by regard to himself that says the reason I lost all my stuff and had this, I think it was a burning of his house or something, he says in his own hand right, in his own right words, that he believes it happened because he doled the golden dawn material and published it, he basically says that his, himself, now we're lucky he did. Of course, a lot of us wouldn't have gotten into this path if it wasn't for him. So you know, no shade on regard, he was a young man doing what he thought was right.

46:53And in his own words, he paid the price for it. So maybe that's, that's all that needs to be said, you know, like he's a, he came full circle in his own life and I'm really grateful for what he did because we have this wonderful magical ecosystem, we have the, the sister rose, I just got the sister rose new book the other day. Very excited. There's already some very big aha moments from some of their observations from their decades of practice. It doesn't matter that every single tradition necessarily comes about in the same way, right? You know, there's always going to be, especially in the occult iconoclasts movements and, and breakaways that might, might start out in a complicated manner, like the order I come out of has plenty of controversies, all groups in the spiritual and human world that I've experienced have lots of issues. I mean, I went to the angle worked for the Anglican Church for a while and hoping that things would be sane or there, then in the occult world.

47:54I was wrong. So I was wanting to bring up, you know, when you go back into the histories as far as, you know, you hear these tales of Edward Kelly, like hauling trunks out of, you know, countries he'd been exiled from and his nose was shaved off and his ears were shaved off and in one tyco bra book I was reading, they talked in the court of Rudolph, they talked about the fact that tyco bra would constantly give Edward Kelly shit about his nose being chopped off because tyco bra had his nose chopped off as well and wore an artificial nose to cover it up. But, but what I was kind of getting at is as these two merge and come together, you get into this stone, this mirror stone that Dee had that was, what was it an Aztec or Mayan stone that he worn his foot that Queen Elizabeth ended up sending to the court of

48:56Rudolph and he kind of followed it. But, you know, you had said earlier, you had said something about scrying. How much does scrying tie into this as far as Dee with the black mirror and the scrying aspects of the Inoki and philosophy? Yeah, those are, I'm really glad you brought all of that up. So definitely Kelly had his nose, he had his ears, there's no evidence otherwise. If tyco bra, he lost his nose, that's news to me. Oh yeah, it was a baby. He didn't want to be the only, the only noseless guy so he sort of pretending Kelly had as well. The evidence, if there'd be actual evidence for that, if that were the case. And you know, a lot of those, when I went on, when I just went on the Edward Kelly tour in Prague, the very commercial one, they actually know a lot about Kelly in Prague because they have all these records in Latin and Czech that, you know, we just don't have all these you know, centuries of research, often, you know, a lot of the time off and it was attacks

50:01on Kelly. You can still find out a lot of a truth for truth from an attack on someone, right? Oh yeah. Because if someone's going to attack someone and they have bad info, like damaging info about you, you think they would release that info, they wouldn't hide it. So if all these people wanted to just create a Kelly and he had no, they probably would have said so, but they don't. Yeah. But that's just one one thing. The other thing you brought up, which is even more interesting, because Kelly's reputation, both D and Kelly, like they had to be attacked, they had to be discredited for years. I mean, the cost of unpublished D's and Okiehn material to discredit him, to make him look like an anabaptist who was just believing whatever came into his own head. And as a result, kicked off a revolution in an Okiehn magic, I mean, Rudd Cotton, all those guys used that published book to then practice, just like, you know, the publication

51:02of Scott's discovery of witchcraft was meant to condemn witchcraft and, you know, this is how you know it's bad and this is how you know it's witchcraft and this is how it works. Step one, step two, step three, step four, don't do it. Right. Here's how you would, right? That's where you get the origin of tracing pentagrams in the air is the Scott's discovery of witchcraft. So, you know, that golden non-practice goes back a long way. As far as the black scrying mirror goes, yeah, that had nothing to do with D, that just got mixed up by the British library and accidentally put in this display with his stuff. But he never did any scrying with the black mirror. He never owned that mirror, neither did Kelly, they probably never even saw it. Maybe they did. My understanding is it was put in that display by accident. Also the scrying crystal that's in that display at the British library. I heard the real one got taken by a rich British aristocrat set for, you know, into their private collections years ago and just got replaced with a fake.

52:06I hear that's the case with a lot of stuff at the British library and if it's not true, well, it's hard to prove, unfortunately, so we'll never really know. The reason they practice scrying and they use scrying as their main method of magic is because they were highly influenced by trithemias and there's this sedonymous trithemian method of drawing spirits into crystals that we have the manuscripts for and that a lot of us still base our scrying practices upon. So it's a old technique that has been around for a long time. You know, I use a crystal ball, but mainly I work with a copper bowl that I hand hammered out back in the mid-90s in workshop class and put water in that, puts, you know, oils for sympathy to the forces I'm working with and then sometimes I'll put a crystal ball in there as well and it's not for staring at, it's not for looking at or focusing on it. It's for creating a reservoir of energy, what does Bard and call it, you know, the fluid

53:07condenser with the metal and the crystal for the spirit to sort of anchor to so that I can have longer and clearer conversations with it. I even use that when I'm doing divination or terror readings for people, if I'm doing terror readings that for a lot of people, I might just create that little mini altar so that the spirits who are helping me with interpretations and information have a nice little home to be in while we work, yeah, maintain the contact longer. You know, I've gotten great results from a Nokia Magic doing it in simplified forms. Again, Scott Stenwick has a lot of good books on that that I've used a lot and you can get great results with you in just printing out the sigil from a computer printer standing on it and doing the ritual. You can have full on a successful effects doing that, but I've found it's very hard to

54:08have prolonged scrying sessions doing things that way, but when I'm sitting in a temple space, I have the full table set up done all the preparations. That's when it's easy for me to have long drawn of communications of tremendously insightful often prophetic information, go on for hours and hours and hours. Thank you. I love you too, Majes in the media. Cool, dude. Yeah, so that's an interesting point. So the experience around doing a Nokia Magic hinges on a sort of a state of noses. Would you say? Well, I mean, state of noses, when I hear state of noses, I hear a state of knowledge, um, special knowledge, maybe, um, what do you mean by noses? Well, the Greeks would sort of refer to kind of like this altered state of perception,

55:11being able to channel having, having that ability in sort of a different frame of, of consciousness. And they would call that sort of like a Gnostic state. So I figured, you know, that's something to do with the, uh, the process of doing a Nokia Magic. Yeah. Well, do you want me to give you a theoretical, uh, and historical or traditional answer or an answer from personal experience? Let me have. Even the experience will buckle up. So there's a, there's a couple. So traditionally, there's a skrier and then there's the, the conjurer. So D would be the conjurer. He would do some scrying himself sometimes, but mainly Kelly would be the skrier. So it's assumed Kelly went into some sort of altered state to do this. Scrying, you know, whether PD Newman's theory is correct that he was, they were used, uh, burning, uh, suffusing the space with DMT.

56:13Uh, let's put that to the side for this discussion because, you know, the evidence is extremely strong, but, uh, generally dismissed by most, uh, people for obvious reasons, because they're boring. People are boring. They don't want to even consider the possibility. It's still, it's still frustrating. Um, but the evidence sort of speaks for itself. I mean, if Melisine and Cagliostro were using DMT and their Masonic ceremonies for a fact and calling it the philosopher's stone, then there's a good chance that what Kelly called the philosopher's stone was the same thing. Um, yeah, but again, there's, uh, there's a book on that that you can read by PD Newman, angels and vermillion. So let's put aside the possibility that they were suffhumigating their room with DMT. And there's lots of good reasons to debate that because they would do their, their scrying of these spirits up in the study in their, in their ritual room during the day, like not at night, they were doing this during the day, which lines up with the whole sunshine, uh, possible prescription.

57:14And, you know, because in their diary entries, they're getting interrupted by their kids, they're getting interrupted by their wives, by, uh, noble men showing up at mort Lake, you know, and calling them down and they have to interrupt their session and run on down. So hard to go into much of a altered state of consciousness. If you're constantly having to go see to things in the household or, you know, that sort of daily obligation aspect of it. Again, they did this so much. And over so many years, they probably did it in a wide variety of ways. They probably did it in more ways than we could, we could even realize. And they may have hidden some of their main methods if they were, in fact, you know, burning certain substances. Um, and there's suspiciously no mention in any of the Anokian diaries of these diaries of any suffemigation or any preparations, which is why my discovery of the preparations for a Nokia con 2024 is with such a big deal.

58:16And it's also why PD Newman's work on what this a few migrations might have been. Why would they burning incense or preparing themselves with fasting, unless it was maybe because they were hiding something secret? Um, for a long time, we just assumed that they didn't burn incense. They didn't prepare themselves ritually, but that didn't really make sense. Given D was so influenced by Grim Wars, like they have tamar on, which have six months preparation, you know, you're giving alms every day. You're, you're fasting like, you know, Abraham Ellen style preparation work. So if D was influenced by texts like that, by Grim Wars, like they have tamar on. And even the Arbitel has some pretty, you know, some pretty clear preparations working in the morning and, and, and that sort of thing, uh, living a holy life, which D definitely considered to be crucially important was to lose as sacred a life as possible, as pious life is possible. Both D and Kelly were, you got to remember these were extremely pious men.

59:21Kelly got deep into Roman Catholicism when they were on the continent. And it's hard for modern, modern minds, I think, to understand that kind of faith and piety. So that alone itself, you might say is an altered state of consciousness or a state of genosis. Personally, in modern practice and in my experience, if I'm being a scrier, do I go into an altered state to receive clear communications, you betcha. But I really like some of the advice given by a previous occult experts, like Adley Nichols, who has since turned, uh, moved on to focusing on other Grim Wars, like the SSM and older medieval stuff. But when he did Inoki and stuff, you know, he was telling me like, I was asking him about the same question. What, how do you do it? I was like, how do you do it? He's like, well, he, he lets the monkey mind run, run free. He doesn't want to be in an altered state. He leaves the rooms on in the place.

1:00:21Because if he sees phenomena, he wants to see them clearly. If the spirits are actually going to speak to them, him, he wants to know. It's the spirit speaking to him and not just his own imagination. And I think that's a not a horrible method to apply when doing some of this work. I think, yeah, it's helpful to put yourself into an altered state to receive these communications more clearly. But if you're, especially if you're someone who, you know, wants to be certain of the profundity and the, the veracity of what you're experiencing, then, yeah, you can put a bit more onus on the spirit to actually demonstrate and speak louder if you like and be more clear in its communication. If it's going to be received. So there is sort of a spectrum of approaches that you could take in. And you know, any magician's going to say, well, don't just pick one or don't just assume one's right was wrong.

1:01:21Try it all over many years and let us know. Excellent. Janie, you got any questions? Honestly, I am just sort of absorbing everything that is being said. But I, I guess my question for a FraterRC would be, is there a way to sort of de-technologize? I know this is controversial, maybe, but like, is there a way to sort of bring the Anokian system into like a more chaos magic framework or more like 2025, like we're not going to, we don't necessarily need all this magical ritual technology, but we can like sort of utilize elements, pieces here and there, maybe keywords, key pieces, key language components, and sort of, it doesn't have to be like a reconstitution, but like just a sort of more pragmatic or more accessible way for people.

1:02:25Well, I think that's sort of what I was trying to say earlier on was that's what we've been doing for the last 30 years. And it's only with, in the very, it's like, you know, the one of the reasons I started in Okia Kahn and, and the Arcane Research Society back in 2019. And with a series of lectures over in and Prague at Kelly's tower, including doing an Okian work up at the, the, the, the tarot turret, the pair of the tower itself and talking to the spirits there, doing an Okian magic. The reason I start all this is because what you're describing is in my opinion, what's the only thing that's been going on in Okian magic is the breaking apart of the system into tiny, tiny little pieces that can be then used in chaos magic and all that sort of stuff. I mean, my, you know, my friend Jason Louvre, I'm honored to be able to say call him that at this point in my life, that's pretty wild. He's, he's done a tremendous study in his book.

1:03:32Well, and what I find interesting in regard to that, that whole idea is that when they got in contact with these entities, the entities told them the methods by which they needed to be able to set up and communicate in the necessary, you know, and, and this is what a hundred years before we start to see the sigil magic with lesser keys of Solomon, you know. So I think I think he's coming back on. Oh, I put it back on. I'm breaking it back on now. You're gonna have his. That's a good point with Orovi when you just had like to bring it into the technological, because that's obviously what people have been trying to do, right? It's like to imprint the Inokin sort of framework onto like technology, like onto our phones and onto like, you know, like to as a device interfaces, because that's what I think I don't know. I don't want to speak for an Okian magic, because since I don't know anything about it, but I think that maybe that's part of a big part of it is

1:04:35like the interface with whatever it is. Like I'm not a, I don't, I think all of you know, I don't totally believe in spirits, but I'm, I'm not negating them either. Right. I think it's easier than ever to actually access making this stuff, you know, the furniture, right? Like the maker revolution, you just 3D print a lot of, a lot of stuff. You can print this stuff out, put it around the table. Like if you compare that to what the Kelly we're working with, they were making absolutely everything by hand, incredible amount of labor going into each and every piece of furniture on this, on this whole thing, as they're doing these different channeling, so I imagine it was kind of exhausting. Well, D definitely had craftsmen make a lot of the things for him. That's definitely the case. And you know, there's a lot of great craftsmen today. And you can make the table. One of my students just found a perfectly sized table on American Amazon was like 200 bucks, painted it up in one

1:05:39evening, traditionally styled gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous, even better than the one me and my friend made, but my friend, he made the table from scratch out of Canadian cedar. And that, that of course, is a bit more work and takes the workshop to do that. But making the tools, traditionally, as a magician yourself is, is important. So doing as much as you can, you know, if you can make something yourself, it's good to make yourself. It will have more power for you. And the spirits are aware of what energy you put into things. They're aware of the investment you make. And if you don't believe in spirits, well, let's, that's even, it's even more compelling because let's put it this way, your own mind knows where you're cutting corners, right? Right. Where you're putting in the effort. I mean, when we don't put it in the enough effort, we get kept up at nights sometimes by our conscience, we don't even behave in a certain way. What weird creatures are we that based on how we behave in the world, we might not

1:06:41be able to sleep because we feel bad at how we behave. What's that? You don't hear about that from many other species, I think, at least not, you know, vocalized because they can't vocalize. Not like we can. So we're weird creatures. We're weird beings. I mean, the hermetica calls us, we're double gods, we're gods, when we ascend and die and become like the stargods or angels, but we're also dying gods. That's how what a beautiful phrase used in the hermetica for human beings, we're dying gods who become star gods, or even better than star gods, because first we were dying gods. So we're two times gods. And it is a very optimistic view of human nature. But, you know, if you have to pick an outlook in the world, it's not the worst thing to pick an optimistic one. So, you know, investing time and energy into your tools, if you even just take a purely psychological approach to magic, which is probably not a horrible way to approach magic until you actually see

1:07:46indisputable evidence of a spirit, or what you might call a spirit, right? Like it's hard to fault someone for not believing in little green men if they haven't seen one. You know what I mean? Like, whereas once you see one, it's like, yeah, okay, now I have no choice. I have sort of got to believe in this because I've seen this thing. Spirits are something I believed in only because I experienced them and saw them at a young age. And once you do your sort of your sort of screw, you've got to spend the rest of your life finding out what the fuck these things are. And otherwise, you know, or not or not, sorry for swearing. I don't want to offend you. That's an insight. Thank you. Yeah, there's some backstory to all this, but we can't. That was funny though. Helles, was there anything? Let me finish, Jen. I think there's more to your

1:08:46question if you don't mind me rambling on for another minute. No, go for it. Because I really do. I have a lot of I have a lot of sympathy for for different points of view and different approaches to magic. Again, as a son who's been teaching since the 90s, I've seen people make a lot of great changes in their life and, you know, fulfill, find fulfillment in their life through different approaches to magic. So I'm especially as someone who considers himself a traditionalist as a matter of taste and preference. I'm very, I'm too experienced to think that there is only one way or that there are best ways. There is not necessarily even best practices other than it's you closer to God, that which gives you greater access to higher consciousness. So, you know, a great way for someone to start approaching an ocean magic in a piece meal away that's still traditional or still could lead to a traditional approach.

1:09:47Look at the letters. Draw the mode on white cards. Start contemplating them, understand them, study them, meditate on them, see what they open up, what hyper pathways of consciousness. They open up in your head. If you're into enthyogens, stare at them and do some enthyogens. Maybe you just want to, you know, do a little weater, you know, fill the room up with DMT if you want to get crazy and see what what that doorway opens up for you. I mean, that's a way of breaking it apart technologically speaking and applying it to different avenues, but let that application perhaps come from God or that is to say the letter or spirit itself. Obscribing a symbol is generally imagined considered the best place to always start. You know, contemplate it, meditate on it, eventually try and communicate through it. And if all those fails, you know, you turn it into a doorway and see where it takes you. Thank you for that. Works for you. Maybe it's not your path, right? You know,

1:10:48don't bang your head against a wall when something's not working for you. You know, I tried to be a jogger for years. My ankles just wouldn't take it. So, you know, wait. No, I really appreciate that. I think that was exactly like, that was a perfect sort of response to my question. I mean, it was exactly what I was asking. I think letter mysticism is so important. That is something I'm doing right now with Hebrew Kabbalah. And it's a lot easier than it sounds because it was very intimidating to me at first because I obviously I have a little bit of Sanskrit, I speak Chinese, but, you know, like, like the Hebrew is like totally foreign to me. So I agree that that is, I mean, I don't know from the no key perspective, but letter magic should work for pretty much everyone. And like meditating on the conceptual, even just the logo graphic quality of it, I think, is very powerful. And I love what you said about it just opening a cognitive gateway because I think that's what the

1:11:48logos at its core is about. So thank you. Yeah, you know, you're welcome. And you might really like Darleen's book, Ophonic Revelations. It's an Inoki in book with a very colorful title, that cover page cover. You know, I think you know, Amazon and Dr. Burns was involved in that. It's from her community of practitioners. And Darleen, who is the partner of Vincent Bridges. I hope I'm not getting that wrong. She does an analysis of the letters in that charting them like a font on a graph and shows different understanding them, which is basing them on what's it called? Damn, Dr. Bernstein killed me for forget the word. So the letters instead of being flat are looked at as cones, like little wormholes, going different directions and turning different ways. So check out Ophonic Revelation for more on that. I did a very mediocre job at explaining it

1:12:53just now. But if you get where I'm going with that, then you'll see, uh, yeah. So there's, uh, yeah, looking at the letters as cones or as tunnels. To me, it was shocking to see that, you know, delightful way because the the one of the first experiences I had on working with Aethers was, well, I always tend to be in when I do scrior even traveling in the spirit vision, I don't usually go through tunnels. I usually enter into what I would describe as vistas or like large dark spaces in which, you know, the thing I call might show up in some form or another and after testing it, I want to interact with it to then expand the the horizon and in touch will work in the golden dawn. We do this by entering the touch with first and then we vibrate the Hebrew names and then we vibrate a no-kin names, right? So to create parameters in the landscape that is invoked and evoked.

1:13:53But with a no-kin, Aethers, I have tended to go down these tunnels, these tubes like like in like you see in graphics, like in a movie or in the intro to my podcast, I tried to make it look like that because that is the experience of the a no-kin Aethers. So when I saw the letters done as as vortexes and in cones, I was very surprised because I was like, yes, that is what I experienced having never thought of this ever before. And the letters themselves are to me, they're, you know, they're less impressive than I would expect from an angelic language because they're so, you know, Phoenician in their in their style, a lot of them look like English. But obviously, again, spirits communicate to us in ways that we can understand, otherwise we don't understand them and we don't know what they're saying and there's no notes to be made in our diary. But they do communicate things in a way that we can grasp onto and these symbols are clearly ones that were familiar to Dean Kelly in a variety of ways. You've got the

1:14:57letter Omega, you've got like an H that's backwards, you've got all kinds of things. And if you look at some of the other magical languages they were familiar with, they're extremely similar to one in particular. So clearly, the angels, you know, they give us, they engage with our fantasya through the familiar concepts that we already have in our head. And that's that's the map we have for that terrain. But the terrain is always, people like to think like one guy asked me out, one friend asked me, so he said so is it so as magic is the map and the nookian is system is the terrain. I'm like, no, no, the whole idea behind this concept of map and terrain or territory is always that the terrain is unknowable. It's always ultimately unknowable, right? I mean, it wasn't just St. Paul that said that it's it's our own scientists in modern times who are like, look, we're never going to get all of reality as one black black matter or dark matter physicist sent to me sitting

1:16:00in granny rainbows trailer because it's her daughter. She she she just held her hand, she's like less than 5%, less than 5%, that's all you'll ever experience of reality at the most. It's like, okay, yeah, so we all know we're we're in this boat together and we think this boat is the universe but it turns out we are maybe all just on the head of a pin, right? Yeah, pretty cool letters, though, I still and when yeah, as soon as you think of like, think of those wide endings and those narrow points as like entrances and exits, I mean, oh baby, now and now we're get now we're talking like we're gonna go with this, but we're just starting. When you bring up perspective, all of these things could be seen from multiple perspectives, like you might be looking at an object on its side or on its, you know, on the front or something, right? So all of these things have a layer of context that's not fully realized. So you've got to listen to Dr. Burns's 50-hour YouTube course on

1:17:03the Mona's Hieroglyphica, you just got to do it. It's an initiation on its own and I promise you you might even go up a standard deviation if you work hard at understanding what she's talking about because D was a genius. He was a genius, possibly the greatest mind of his era or of many eras. There's no there's no two ways about that. The guys who built Stonehenge were all probably super geniuses. They just didn't have the same tools that we have today, right? So we had these great minds and he got to the edge of human knowledge and said, well, what's left? I can't find any more books that I don't have. I guess I'll start talking to angels and spirits and see if they can point me in a direction that will further my knowledge and bring me closer to God, which is, you know, it's a noble task and he took it very seriously. And in his Mona's Hieroglyphica, which is his true masterpiece and which the Innocene system is much more intimately involved in than I ever thought until Dr. Burns' fabulous work, everything is thought of in terms of sacred

1:18:10geometry in terms of, you know, the Innocene table is not a cube of white. It's actually a hyper cube or a tesseract. And Dr. Burns, she takes you through all that in a way that I could never do that. Yeah, these symbols, like the whole Golden Dawn grade structure is based on this schema, according to her analysis. And the Golden Dawn members certainly knew this text very well. Wescott and Mathers were definitely familiar with this text as were the authors of the Rose accrucian manifestos. This symbol was put on the very front cover of the chemical wedding, if I recall correctly. So D's system is the, and Innocene is the underlying, I mean, it's so amazing, like it might have actually gotten forgotten about if if Kassaban hadn't tried to disparage D as reputation and make him look like a fool by publishing the true and faithful relation.

1:19:14So it's pretty funny how the spirits managed to get their work into the public's attention. By any means necessary, including the monster of D and Kelly. Once you start reading it, it's very infectious. Like once you start reading their accounts and going through all of these different things, it's like, I gotta know what's gonna happen next. Like all of this stuff is building on itself and you're like, this is really riveting. You know, a lot of that stuff is kind of exciting now. I mean, it's a relicking good time, their whole life story and adventure, especially once you get past the surface information that tries to reduce it all to just, you know, you know, like, oh, they swapped wives one night. It's like, no, they didn't. What are you talking about? They didn't swap wives one night. They swapped wives lots of nights, right? Do you know how to look at D's diary and see what little tiny marking he put to indicate the nights he got laid? No, you don't.

1:20:17But once you do, the story opens up and expands even more. And when you find out what the wife swapping as well, as much as maybe D's wife was not pleased with it, how faithful they were to these spirits to do what they were told to do. Even D didn't want to go chew out Rudolph, the Holy Roman Emperor upon first meeting him, but he did, you know, because the spirit said so. The wife maybe didn't want to see with Kelly, but she did because they said so. And even Dr. Sludge has brought up like, we don't know the full story there because there's this thing they were part of possibly called the family of love. Now, if that sounds like a Elizabethan hippie polyamory kind of movement, then you'd probably be right. So who knows what they actually lived their lives like, right? They wouldn't have put all of that in writing because, you know, you wouldn't want to get judged too harshly by the, you know, religion was a bit more in charge in those days. So I had to kept your, those matters more close to the vest. So again, the more you

1:21:21go past the surface story of these guys' lives and their family's lives, and the remarkable work even their kids did. I mean, they produced some remarkable children, Arthur D. The daughter who is a poet, you know, and Kelly, you know, didn't die in prison. He went up back with his family, died a few years later and with his family, you know, living in check, you know, in Bavaria. And yeah, I don't think he would be an exaggeration to say that John D's mathematics created the British Empire. Like his ideas of how to chart these oceans gave them an advantage over everybody else. I mean, that was, that was huge. Yeah. Well, you know, they, he tried to give them advice. They tended to not pay attention to his lessons on how to navigate with the maps. You know, there's these great instances of they're like, yeah, he told us what to do, but we're just going to go this direction and next thing, you know, they're like fighting Eskimos,

1:22:24barely like alive. But in the homonus hieroglyphic itself, there's this one poor part that's I that I love where D says, and forgive me your highness or your majesty for revealing what might be a great secret in this diagram, but it must be said for us to sake of the integrity of this theory. And what he's actually revealing, there's hours of lecture Dr. Burns does on parabolas and ellipses. I never thought I would spend so many hours in my life studying those since high school, but I did. And what he's actually showing in this diagram at this one part is he's showing the difference between the, I think it's the parabola that would be used that people use that acts that doesn't hit another ship with a cannonball. And he shows how to correct it so that you can use the correct trajectory to accurately predict how a cannonball will hit a ship. One thing, sorry, one thing I wanted to follow up with a fraud or a C is that what you said about their kind of unconventional lifestyle. Now, my question is not directly about that. Like, I don't

1:23:29really care personally. I don't, doesn't affect me at all. Like, however, they arrange themselves, like, whatever. Magicians are weird people. It is what it is. But do you think that sometimes those, like, elements are included in certain stories about, not just them, but about, like, all magicians in a way to sort of as fetters or blinds or even just, like, misdirections as ways to take people sort of like outside of the context in which they were the, outside of the actual work that they were doing. Like, it's like a distraction almost. I mean, yeah, yeah, I think that, I mean, obviously, if you're trying to, to discredit someone, you'll do whatever, you'll say whatever true and untruthing necessary. I mean, and D's an easy target because he's a, you know, he was a Catholic priest. And then during his lifetime, he went from being the son of a wealthy, successful man in jail with his dad and older brother executed. And him being about to be executed

1:24:36himself, right? There's this great scene. He's in jail with this other guy who's a Copernican, also on the, you know, going to be on the chalk and block. He goes in to get tested or questioned by the bloody Baron, so calls for obvious reasons. And next thing you know, he, the Copernican gets called in and the bloody Baron calls D out, now dressed as a priest again, to question the Copernican and interrogate him. So D must have given quite the speech to this Baron, to this bishop, sorry, the bloody bishop, to convince him to not only not execute him, but to bring him on as one of his fellow inquisitors, you know, so D saved his own neck just barely there. And then of course, you know, used his position of power to actually be a bit more helpful than to the other people who were on the up for inquisition, shall we say. But yeah, because of that ignomy in D's life,

1:25:37he never was going to receive any official status at court and never received any official position from the Queen. He struggled his whole life, having to beg Barrow and almost steal, perhaps, to just survive and to fund his endeavors. And he did such great work. People didn't mind supporting him. Like, you know, this is the kind of guy who by modern standards could ask his rich noble friends for a couple hundred grand to buy some cool new books, so he could teach them how to not crash to their ships or how to fire a cannonball better. You know, so this is a useful guy, right? If I told you I could like 10 extra business in three weeks, just give me two million, you'd be like, yeah, well, I get a refund if I feel cool. All right, I'll back you up, right? D was that kind of guy. It seems, you know, he's a spy for you, right? He was a spy for the Queen. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's unfortunate that 007 thing wasn't true, but he definitely was a spy.

1:26:39And, you know, Dr. Burns thinks Shakespeare was working with him, you know, was Garland, was known as Garland when he was in Prague. And oh, that whole side of the story is completely fascinating. And it's a whole other element, right? It's just a whole other side. That's the spying of the Apocalypse's Historia YouTube channel. It's up and coming channel on YouTube that's really going all in doing four or five hour live streams diving into Shakespeare and Sydney and all of these other characters from that time period. They'd be some fun guys to have on if you want to go into the Shakespeare stuff. Oh, man, we've got so deep on the Virginia side of the Shakespeare sort of conspiracy. There's a whole other element that's going on over here having to do with Rockefeller and all people. So Rockefeller and men. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Damn. We don't live in boring times. No, no, no, no, no.

1:27:46Was there anything else anybody wanted to ask? Well, I was going to say, if I remember right, towards the end, when he finally went back to his state, hadn't it been looted and a bunch of the books been burned and kind of the people had turned against him. Yeah, his own family members, like looted his library and sold them off for profit. Right. This guy got betrayed by everybody. Everybody. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and then the Queen could have helped him out more and given him some money or a place and she's strung along. And you know, he went up to Manchester and all his family died of illness. And then he died. And yeah, very, but of course life was life was rougher back then. And illness did happen. And poverty was a harsh reality of existence, for sure, especially if you're following what you would see as your true will versus your own self-interest. I had two quick follow up. It's okay. I'm sorry about that probably. My politics fire away,

1:28:57fire away. Oh, I wanted to ask about the money situation. So this has come up before when we've discussed certain medieval magicians, it's like their poverty. And I'm not saying that they was like totally just like desolation poverty. Obviously, this is like various like big money and big losses, both at the same time. So I think is there a way to sort of use and okay, I'm not saying use it for material purposes, but is there a pragmatic way maybe to use an Okian magic for well-throwing or jupiterian works, et cetera, et cetera. So that's a question A and then question B or perhaps this observation. But I like that you described the sort of the spaces that you see during letter missesum as vistas. Because this is something that we just talked about is like the spaces where we arise in consciousness. Like some people would pause it like kind of ground would say we live in the tunnels of set. So those are like big cavernous empty spaces, right? So it is similar.

1:30:03There are similar kinds of ideas of like where does the word fundamentally arise? Well fundamentally it arises in your own mind, but there are different ways to get there there. So I don't know if that was a question, but you're welcome to respond to either one as you see well as you will. Yeah, you might need to rephrase the second one after answer the first. So the first one I did in Okian aether work with Lon Milo de Cat when he was in town. It was just at a college and brother Mason Troy put that on. Thank you Troy for all the events you put on over the years. And getting to work with Lon was a fun experience because he had no qualms about just giving everyone the tools they needed to do an Okian magic in a room full of strangers with each other and make it work. And so I thought I would do something I'd actually never done before and I used that opportunity for my own goal to be money magic because I figured that was something

1:31:07that was extremely verifiable, right? And I did have a valid need because I was sleeping on my publisher so far at the time and definitely needed to get my own place. And so I needed a little help there and so I did manage for an exact amount of money the next day woke up and it was in my account from a source that in a million years I would never have expected it to come from. Though I had put out the word in general that yeah like I'd gone through I'd been doxed I'd had my home invaded had to leave that home slept on my publisher so for a few months and then it got a place. And so the very next day that money was there and so that was an Okian money magic just done by screwing the aether traveling in the aether of texts and what I did there of course was an operation for money in the kingdom of the gnomes and you know that was just my own known my own inner map work and spirit work for making that happen but that was the context.

1:32:09So that was a simple way that I did it the first time and since that was the first time my life I had ever even done magic for money since I've always been sort of a you know working class kid paper paper roots since I was 10 years old you know you don't you don't people don't do that anymore but that's how I made my money is doing little odd jobs and stuff as a kid and that was they never was a magical thing for me but I'm definitely I've warmed up to the understanding these days that people have that magic should help your material life first so that you can then pursue the spiritual life I think there's a valid there's validity to that point of view that people have for a long time I sort of resisted any kind of sympathy towards that perspective but now I given this chaos of the world and given the rampant inequality we're facing I think yeah all bets are off fuck it do what you got to do survive and if God in the spirits of nature can't help you

1:33:12survive then what are we even doing here so there's a simple version with doing the inokian haptarkia work which is what I teach in my course intro course I would work with spirit of mercury like I would recommend anyone to work with spirit of mercury to get money as opposed to just general abundance you know someone wants to get do money magic you know set up an alter to mercury get get an orange orange alter cloth get some blue candles and pray at it three times the data to mercury spirits three times a day at least and you know that'll help it's helped everyone I've ever told that to do who's done it and sent me photos of the beautiful altars they made have found major benefits in doing that now if you want to talk about hardcore magic for a hardcore financial success it always seemed like that would be theoretically possible but no one really had the cajones to to try to see how until now and the great Scott Michael Stanwick when he was on my

1:34:15podcast recently told me what his workshop would be at our inokia con this year because now in 2026 crazy to think but it is using the cacodymons which most of us never work with you're generally not meant to work with them most of them are there to like cause illness and disease because they are just simply the spirits that are those things but he's looking at the cacodymons of gems and precious metals and has discovered a way to use them and do magic in the inokian system to achieve not just financial success but wild degrees of wealth and he's speaking from experience shall we say so i don't know what there's a room for 20 people to do that works up at our conference in austin texas november six through eight goes sign up at arcaneresearchsidey.com forward slash 2026 and you'll find out

1:35:15thank you so much those are great answer i totally agree with you and shut out kelby lowsock because kelby came on my show and he was like this is how i do my money magic and he laid it all out and he basically does exactly what you said now he uses a pikachu idol as his kind of mercurial symbol which i love because there's a mercury Jupiter connection with lightning so it kind of works in both spheres if you want to call that so i but i love that you describe something so similar that a like a chaos magician who's like my age like does and works for him so it's like there's something that is understandable and sort of like a transitive you could say a transitive property between the two systems and like more um i don't want to call modern magic but it's kind of like a you know like uh what we're doing now and and i also think that um everything that you said like the i think that we should utilize the systems like i'm not up to i'm like you i'm like

1:36:17magic shouldn't be totally material and it shouldn't be but it shouldn't be totally spiritual either there has to be something like pragmatic and like reasonable about it where you're actually improving your material conditions but maybe that's not your primary goal maybe your primary goal is much higher than that but you still need the foundation to sort of get there so i really appreciate that you said that thank you also we keep dancing around this color issue so uh there's there's this change in color that uh is with the you know golden dawn sense but um i think it's really interesting once you get into the flashing idea and how you can achieve a sort of trans like state looking at the different flashing colors these two contrasting um you know colors that create a different tone in between the two yeah i mean in you know they're in our retina uh my tie is orange and my shirt is blue right these colors reverse in our in our in our eyes and uh it is quite a psychedelic

1:37:23a little aspect of the gd system that that plays with colors in this way but also the gdc's colors not as um they see them as the forces themselves so by wearing a color you're not wearing something that represents the force you're wearing that force itself the color the force um yeah there's another aspect of uh what you said that i wanted to respond to um damn what was it you distracting with those color references colors always oh yeah i was actually going to ask you real water school grad i was gonna ask you real quick actually that's funny that he brought up the uh you brought up the colors uh i was gonna ask you if you purposely wore those because it's uh it's Wednesday right and i figured that would be like kind of uh no just total coincidence total coincidence uh because i would be like marker in the flashing color Jupiter would be blue no i just needed something to like make streaming and podcasting a little bit more ritualistic and fun for myself so i thought what if i get a planetary shirt for each day and then wear them

1:38:24on the appropriate days with the tie um i the only ones i don't have is uh i don't have a green shirt and a red tie because on Fridays and never really do any streaming stuff i mean not you yeah no it's not a day for streaming usually it's a day for other things what do i do usually read um oh here's what i was gonna say before about the yeah life abundant basically you know in the hermetica the the main in the hermetics in hermetic spirituality the primary gesture to the world or to recreation is one of thanks giving right but you don't give thanks it's very human when do we give thanks we give thanks at the end of the harvest well in Canada we do i don't know what you crazy yank celebrate something about slaughtering first nations or something like that i don't know crazy americans but no i'm joking we we give thanks because of the harvest and you give thanks because you know the pilgrims were fed by the first nations and you gave

1:39:27more blankets that to keep them warm and everything's been grand ever since saint ironaise who said some nice things and some not so nice things says that the glory of god is every creature fully alive and i think if you look at their hermetic approach to the mysteries as one of thanks giving and you think keep in mind these christian saints who were clearly believers that god wanted the best for us and wanted us to appreciate the fullness of creation that god sacrificed god self to create and sustain in a constant act of creation and what's funny about this language of course is it actually tracks really well on modern scientific understandings of the universe and the constantly expanding cosmos that you know fades and consumes itself so that it continues to perpetuate itself right it it dies so it can be reborn in a sense so there's this initiation of the soul that happens through wondering and and being open to the

1:40:31realities beyond the physical but at the same time are are only fundamental response to creation is to give thanks for it and for being alive in the hermetic texts and spirituality that is and so i think i think that we've seen this carried forward in the mystery traditions of the west in a really beautiful and clear way that it wasn't brought forward in western religion it's encapsulated a bit better and i think in Judaism than Christianity because obviously Christianity got highly distorted by power structures that you know became very abusive and focused more on death than life and rebirth so there you go so yeah do magic to make your life better and then give thanks for the life that you have and wonder and initiate yourself through wondering what is beyond that's how hermetic spirituality works is initiation through simple

1:41:33contemplation of that which is beyond the physical that's all you need well and a guide helps i have a quick follow up for that that was great that was a great bar um but okay is Austin magic because a lot of people a lot of institutional musicians have their set up in Austin so i just i need to know i need to know what is the magic of Austin specifically why is the temple set based in Austin why are there so many it was it's Victoria Victoria is very magical too but we don't have to get into that but no but Austin Victoria BC yeah Victoria BC well like the oldest golden lodge is is there right so um you know uh oh yeah Jamie do you know Jamie Paul Lamb okay are you in Victoria BC no i i live in Canada though i was born in Vancouver okay oh cool with fellow Vancouver right very nice um the yeah the golden dawn lodge in Victoria is not very old

1:42:39um right i know okay it started up after i closed ours the one in Vancouver started in the early 90s the one in Victoria started the same year i closed down the one in Vancouver um yeah that's and well and there is there is another golden dawn uh thing in BC but i saw public and therefore yeah anyway it's been around since the 70s though um but yeah we can't talk about that one Austin i don't know i've never been there but my friends like uh Jeff Contreras and other friends i met down in LA in the in the mid 90s they have been telling me to come there for ages massive golden dawn presence massive martinus presence so many different magical presences jason lou is based there now i got cut off earlier talking about him and his uh his pioneering of chaos magic that he's done through and we you know with the inokian system in particular you want chaos

1:43:43magic and inokian you know jason lou is down in austin he'll be the featured presenter at our workshop there this spring um and uh yeah we'll be getting a lot into the chaos magic in inokian magic intersection uh this year in austin i don't know if it's a magical place or if it's on a lay line or whatever but it's a powerful spot uh from everything i've seen and after i go there this spring i will let you know if i find it personally to be uh a place of power but you know they say it's a weird city and weird cities tend to uh be weird for a reason right yeah oh uh jamey paul lam what's your point about him though i didn't want to interrupt that oh no i just he he he he he he explained that he goes to get his grades in victoria like that's the lodge that he goes to he set it on air so it's not like something yeah yeah yeah yeah well he spends with my buddy fratter yeshi there my old friend there i met him in 2005 just after he started up um his temple there so yeah jamey paul

1:44:48lam is is part of that that group the hermetic society of the golden dawn is what they're called um their chief adepts are fratter yeshi and uh darcy cunce and christine zaleski um and there's some other prominent people involved with it though i'm not sure if they're public about that so i won't say it but yeah we we go back a long ways um and uh yeah they're i'm glad they're doing what they're doing because victoria deserves to have golden dawn initiations available to people so it's great the jamey is still uh involved with uh with those cool kids over there are you familiar with fratter chaude and his kind of work in van koever on the an of the daughter working yeah you know i i'm not familiar i i was doing so during college i was at cap college for a year and i'd have these three hour breaks and i'd go across the street to the graveyard and do my uh rosary and invoke south and uh do uh communion work with spirits there in the graveyards and i didn't realize that

1:45:52right there was fratter hud's grave right like feet away from this place where i was doing my work and i had no idea that that he was there it was just a powerful place for me to do magic uh drank you know during those long university breaks you have sometimes between day classes and night classes right you can end the class at four and no point going home even though you don't have to be back to late so you just stick around and hang out and do hours of ritual work and study your books and yeah it was right there right at a fratter hud's grave right there in the old graveyard of north van koever where i grew up and yeah i didn't know much about him uh finally was given some of his books and they were very odd and confusing to me because i'm not too familiar with what he did and i'm not familiar also with the a and the the leemic system of kroly from which he came so not only do i not understand his his unique contributions i don't have an understanding very much of the baseline which he's coming from because those systems are so you know similar but still

1:46:56speciated from the gd system so they don't really make love sometimes to me but he's a very interesting guy and i'm very proud to uh have grown up in his uh hood van city for life north shore maybe yeah shut up shut up to the you know north van koever walled her school all my uh anthroposophical homies um let's say nobody else has got another question we could probably wrap it up now that's good was there anything else maybe about that you would like to add before we wrap it up um add about what and okay magic if there's anything you want to oh god i mean we can talk about it for forever there's so much so much exciting stuff going on in it in it these days um i mean definitely i recommend everyone uh check out uh dr terry burns's

1:48:01copy of these monos hieroglyphica the uh the only good version ever made uh and her 50-hour youtube course go to dr terry burns on youtube and see her course start at the beginning you don't need the book to go through her course i got the book after i went through the course and uh it's uh it's uh it's the kind of uh information that'll really uh force your brain to stretch and and think in some new and exciting ways as well as the whole historical aspect to it and the alchemical and magical side um and she even addresses those points when they come up in ways that most academics would be afraid to but she wasn't afraid to do it because she's already a retired professor emeritus and has made it very clear she no longer cares what people think and it's just going to be true to herself and uh god bless her for that because that is what we need from serious scholars in my opinion not people who are um gatekeeping knowledge uh deleting comments or refusing to engage in debates

1:49:08with others because it might uh threaten their position you know we don't need that shit anymore there you go yeah she's great you'll love her she's got a she's got a powerful mind about big brain and uh it was a pleasure to get to kickstart these uh inokian conferences with her uh support and collaboration and contribution when we do uh after uh 2026 we'll do 2027 and Prague and we'll do a whole week of it so we'll do a three day retreat going around Prague and doing that work in all the magical places with her and then we'll do a three four day conference there here with all the European uh inokian personalities invited to present and attend so yeah it's going to be uh it's going to be big this year in Austin we got a whole building downtown with a multiple rooms lecture hall banquet hall it's going to be fabulous and right now early enrollment

1:50:08is open there's like only limited early enrollment slots left so if you want to get in at the best price go check it out right now um and you get an access to not only in okia con but you also get access to the spring workshop which won't be on inokian magic particularly it'll be whatever Jason Liu wants to present on plus of whatever the other presenters present on all be there and I will do a little inokian component as well but yeah lots happening this year and we're excited to uh you know do it in the states before we take it over to Europe in 2027 awesome all right too nice thank you so much yeah yeah yeah I definitely uh probably like to get you on again maybe like something a little bit more specific or some other stuff to even do with golden don't magic or whatever sure yeah absolutely I love talking about all this stuff yeah this was great yeah and uh yeah for real yeah I don't know like kind of like gin too I really don't know much

1:51:10about it no key magic really so and I haven't been able to come so I thought this was like this was really amazing so really appreciate it well um talk about anokian chess oh I know well you know you could watch my interview with christines alessia about that I've only played it once I want to get into it some more but nickle I'll send you a free code tax as my course you can do my course and uh and then you can uh we can get deeper into it once you've done that okay all right yeah listen all right sure yeah that's good give it a try okay um all right yeah before we wrap it up let me uh let everybody uh plug that shows again let's judge police uh everybody know what they can find all your issues how are you doing you can find me at the headless giant on youtube on twitter and tomorrow we got a um another headless giant uh mailbag coming up so definitely shoot me those emails at the headless giant podcast at gmail.com if you've got an esoteric or occult or strange story even

1:52:15dreams send me those and then you'll get some stickers in the mail so send those to me and uh we'll see you there tomorrow thank you thank you very much sir engine the ninja well thank you guys so much it was another awesome roundtable obviously we packed them in tonight um if you want to if you want to check me out at threshold saints um on ig and x twitter those the show accounts and then also at um www.substack.or www.thresholdsaints.substack.com that's one of the portals and then for the gray lodges www.the true gray lodge with the v so t r v plus ultra baby gray lodge.com you can hear all our speculative aonic work hundreds of hours and also check out all the shows with the other brothers the other freighters of the gray lodge on my show so thank you so much nick obviously a huge honor thank you for our he appreciate it greatly obviously it's great

1:53:18to hear another west coaster on the show especially from our side of the west coast um and uh robby and headless thank you guys so much it's great well yeah thank you no fun cougar in the house hey that's right a that's the nickname that's a nickname you wouldn't know the nickname are sitting no fun cougar oh heartless bastards those Laurentian elites I've had some good conversation over ourselves I know oh there's lots I mean dude you can buy DMT and cocaine over the counter yeah yeah get a receipt for tax write-offs what okay party time yeah it's not a good thing because we didn't create any treatment centers you know we're like we'll do it just like protrogole but without the treatment centers and the rehab that'll work yeah robby mocks please let everybody know they can put all your stuff yeah I am R marks or robby marks I'm an artist illustrator researcher author if you want to check out my various works you

1:54:22can connect with me at my link tree which is link tree RMARX and that has my podcast social media everything and yeah it was always it's always great to come on with headless and gin you know this is it back to those school and uh fratter it's it's great to meet you and Nick thanks for having me on as always give me out of my hole you know my little hermit hole up here in the great north woods oh yeah I'm glad you're back and it was great stuff man it's great stuff yeah thanks and fratter I see please let everybody know they can find all your stuff yeah I'm on uh my podcast is on all podcast platforms go give a nice review of me on apple podcasts and Spotify if you don't mind because not everyone's very nice there um and uh yeah that would help me out a lot otherwise go to hermitapodcast.com you can become a free member of my cyber go show up to some seasonal zooms support me on youtube uh become a member but mainly should uh go to the arcane research society.com subscribe for emails and hopefully come to a live event because I love the internet

1:55:28as much as everyone else it's given us tremendous opportunities uh for you know especially for us peasants who uh who didn't even have a seat at the table for the longest couple of millennia and now we do and that said though real life is in person in my opinion and uh getting together at events conferences retreats like I'm doing this thing to build this thing um and putting most of the resources pretty much all back into it so keeping costs low and over serving as much as possible putting on as many events as possible and providing as many courses as possible I can't even go into all the things that we've been able to give for our members to this point um there's a whole even academic course that's underway now that is remarkably uh would have been remarkably hard to access that kind of information outside of the university graduate program um and so yeah we're going to the more people join and get on board the more we can do so please support uh the arcane research

1:56:33society.com and thanks again for having me I've been looking forward to this uh for a while oh yeah and oh this was great obviously uh thank you it's back on in the future sure yeah I think you guys are doing great work try try try try my best but uh yeah thanks again and thank you everybody in the chat that's what's up we had a bunch of people here like all the comments and stuff uh that's what we go live and uh yeah that's the end of another recall rejects and until the next one everybody be well later