Dying to be Alive

0:00Welcome to Break Free and Trust, a redesign for living. Join me, Chris and me, Jaclyn, for real conversations about life, death and everything in between. Learn to connect with your intrinsic power to grow and heal, how to laugh at your own humanists and not take life too seriously. Through healthy conversations between the feminine and masculine, you learn how to harness the power of relationship and the mirror to befriend your shadow and to trust that any obstacle that gets in your way is there to help you grow. Together, working at a practical level, you learn to trust that everything that is happening is for you, your growth and ultimate freedom. Our circumstances don't matter, it's only how we relate to them and it does. Get ready to befriend the wisdom of your body and the power of your mind. Break free and trust starts now. Hey, and welcome to Break Free and Trust, a redesign for living. I'm Chris and I'm Jaclyn. And I'm going to kick us off in this episode with a quote from Alan Watts.

1:00I can't do his accent, so just imagine me doing this in an Alan Watts voice. There is a peculiar suffering that comes with awareness, the kind of exile that happens not when you leave the world, but when you truly see it. You sit down to watch a movie, everyone loves, and with the minutes you're analyzing the manipulation tactics, the propaganda, tired formulas. You're at a party and instead of enjoying the moment, you're observing the social performance, the masks, the desperate need for validation and every conversation. You used to enjoy these things, but something changed, you woke up and you can't go back to sleep, Alan Watts. So today, we are exploring one of the most painful consequences of an expanded consciousness, the simple loss of pleasure. Jack and I share our own experiences and understanding of the topic of coming into higher consciousness, also known as dying to be alive. And for live years, of course, the show is open to questions in the second half, so write them in the chat or you can call in at 1-800-930-2819.

2:06And we will start off, like I just read that quote, and you know, in a sense, Jacqueline, you're sort of if you're going through it right now. Oh, am I ever. Where do you want to start with it? Well, I think what I would start off by saying is growth and all it's cut out to be. It's painful. And it kind of takes you by surprise. So more than loss of pet pleasure, painful. Yeah, I mean, I was, I was listening to you as you were saying that, and I don't, I don't really identify in some ways with a loss of pleasure. I think it's way more than that, and the dying to be alive piece really resonates strongly. You know, I think it's interesting. We've talked a lot about your awakening process. And, you know, a lot in the beginning, we talked a lot about how you were brought to your knees and how you always do things really big.

3:14Go big or go home. The awakening process is really different when life hasn't handed you something that all of a sudden brought you to your knees. Or you haven't created a scenario where you're brought to your knees, but rather my experience has been this slow unwinding or the slow undoing. And then all of a sudden over the last six weeks, I'd say, it's been a really quick unraveling. And it's when I'm choosing. But I'm definitely not choosing the way it's feeling, right. And finding some real resistance in it. Yeah, as you point out, there's no one thing like, like, like a death or an addiction or something you put the pen and say, aha, there it is. What do you mean by a slow unwinding? Because it's now sped up. So what was the, what was the slow part? Like, just so I understand.

4:16You know, I think like many of you, I've, I've spent a lot of my life sort of in this world and learning and growing and having growing pains along the ways and along the way and having sort of watching layers of the onion, if you will, or as I like to say the artichoke is at the center of the artichoke. There's not just tears. There's the heart of everything. Peel away. And that's manageable. You know, those are that that creates some challenge for sure, but it's manageable. And then all of a sudden, it feels like layer upon layer upon layer upon layer are all falling away at the same time. It's me really being mentally prepared for what that looks like. And I would describe it's in, well, we went for a walk a couple days ago.

5:21And I was sharing how I was feeling with Chris, which I'm more than happy to share with all of you. He decided to tell me his story of the caterpillar. And it's a story we all know. But it's one that was pretty profound in that moment for me because I identified myself somewhere very different than I had identified myself before. So I think maybe a great way for us to continue the conversation is for you to enter storyteller mode and we can go from there. What do you think? Yeah, it's okay. Sounds good. Yeah. This is the story of metamorphosis with a caterpillar. It's actually something I tell, you know, almost all my transformational coaching clients, because we all, we all relate to it. When you when you hear it this way, we can really identify where we are at. So it starts, you know, it starts with a big juicy caterpillar. You know, climbing around leaves and munching leaves and eating leaves and. So just filling his belly for her belly every single day, whether it's raining or sunshine, happiest can be munching leaves.

6:28And looking around all around this caterpillar sees other caterpillars, just munching leaves, everybody's happy. It's wonderful. Can't imagine anything more wonderful than a caterpillar on a leaf munching leaves. There's nothing else to the world. That's it. And then something happens one day, one day out of nowhere, the caterpillar does not feel hungry. There's not want to munch leaves, nor can munch leaves. There's no idea what's happening, looking around all the other caterpillars are still munching leaves. They're still enjoying themselves and nothing's changed with them, but the caterpillar just can't eat. And days go by and the caterpillar just feels completely lost and feels like it's just all coming to an end. And in the sadness and in this depression, this this structure starts going around the caterpillar, which is this cocoon. And the caterpillar will think, that's it. Well, this is the end. This is what this is what Beth is. And so the cocoon wraps around the caterpillar and slowly but surely the caterpillar turns into a goo.

7:34It's like a primordial goo, just liquid. But it's just something the strangest thing is still happening. The consciousness is still there. The caterpillar is still there, but it's like, I don't know what's going on. And over time, here's his little pings. And these little pings are these new cells that are trying to form. Initially, the caterpillar's old immune system comes in and crushes them, foreign cells stays the goo. But over time, the ping, ping, ping, increases, increases until some of the cells make it and they start forming clusters, clusters of wings and legs and eyes. And surely, but surely over time, these cells all cluster to form an entirely new structure. The caterpillar doesn't know what's happening. But over time, it starts to get feeling in all these parts of its body and starts moving it wiggling a little bit, but still caught in the cocoon. And with more effort, with more time, with more inside energy and inspiration, it's finally able to move enough to break free of the spoon and suddenly it's in the air.

8:37Suddenly, it's floating above the earth, looking down at this very small part of what its universe was before, which is the leaves and the caterpillar still other caterpillar still happily munching away. It's now flying in the sky above all the trees and sees that it had an experience the world before it was just on leaves, the world is vast, it's infinite. And the caterpillar far from dying has just been reborn into what the caterpillar has been all along was always meant to be, which is the butterfly. And there's an extremely painful experience with once he's here that all made sense. That is a very powerful analogy for what this awakening into awareness or spiritual awakening or whatever want to call it is that we go through as dying, dying will dying to be alive as we call it. And it's a really beautiful story when you think about the butterfly.

9:37But when we were talking on our walk and I want you to understand as you listen that, you know, I've been through this process many times in many different ways. And when I say layer upon layer, I feel like I've done this process many times, but this time it feels very different. And this time what I'm noticing is that, you know, I've identified myself, my whole life with the horizontal plane. And what I mean by that, if you were to imagine the cross, I've identified who I am and what my purpose isn't being here with the horizontal or with the interpersonal and some things happening right now where all of that is sort of pulling away.

10:41And that's a little bit like I'm retreating to connect with the vertical or with in my words, what I would refer to as God realization, communion, whatever you want to call it, connection with the truest essence. Something very bizarre, which is happening in that process, which is my purpose is falling away. My sense of meaning in terms of my work and what I've always done, my friendships, my relationships, all of it is changing. And it's changing in a way that I can't quite put my finger on. It feels like when I listen to that story is I'm not identifying with a caterpillar. I definitely don't identify with a butterfly in this moment where I find myself is in the primordial goo. And I'm laughing, but on our walk I was crying because it's a really painful place to be because this whole sense of ego identity in this process has really fallen away.

11:53And all of the things that gave me meaning in the past, it's not that they're not meaningful, but they're no longer nourishing my soul in the same way that they did. And what I'm realizing more and more is that those places which I thought were nourishing my soul in a lot of ways were actually feeding my ego. And in a lot of ways were actually playing out a drama, which fed a really old story, which was as long as I'm caring for the world, as long as I'm tending to the world. I'm lovable. And as soon as I don't do that, what I'm faced with is questions of, well, who the hell am I?

12:53Because now all of those signposts, they're not there anymore. I haven't even talked to you about this, but even loving, which is such a significant part of who I am and who I've always been, my ability to love has changed. What I mean by that is my attachments aren't the same anymore. I've let go of a lot of my attachments. And in letting go of a lot of my attachments, I'm letting go of a lot of a measurement in love. But without them, love doesn't feel the same. It feels different. I don't even know it in my body anymore. And it's really painful. What else have you thought letting go of? I mean, before I ask you back question, I want to reflect back to you. You know, in a sense, the way you're describing these attachments, these, I do this for this reason, this give me purpose, that's the, you know, that's the, that's the ego structure or the old caterpillar's body that's now, and that's now dying, that's now being let go of the turn into the unknown.

14:15What was it, what else for you as part of that old structure that you, you, you feel the, um, the absence of no. So I feel it in all of my relationships, I feel it as a parent, I feel it in friendship, I feel it with clients, I feel it with students, I feel it with you. But I think honestly, the place where it's most painful in this moment is in connection to purpose. And I was, I was thinking about this this morning, you know, I've spent so much of my time studying Joseph Campbell's hero story and looking at Jean Houston's version of the heroines. Journey and whatnot, and I've always really connected with it, but something really interesting happened for me this morning is I was watching something actually that you had sent me.

15:23And, you know, in the hero's story, we talked about the call to adventure, that moment when something comes knocking on your door and there's a call to adventure, a call to, to take it from path, a call to look at life a different way and to step into your, your truth. And Campbell always speaks about that as you know it's, you know it's your truth when it's, you're following your bliss. Follow what lights you up. Follow what makes you sparkle. Follow what when you're doing time disappears and you could open your eyes and four hours could have passed and you could not even know it. I know that really well, I've lived that. This process feels like a letting go of that too, which is really counterintuitive because it's almost like I have to let go of the bliss that I was following.

16:27In order to connect with something deeper and it almost feels like what's happening for me in this moment feels like the horizontal plane or the interpersonal plane is falling away for the moment. In order for there to be space for me to connect with whatever's truth for me, so for you it might be the divine, it might be the universe, it might be whatever to connect with flow. But it's not a process that feels bright and passionate and full of life and vitality. It's a process that feels very much like I'm dying while I'm alive. And you know, I was talking to my sister this morning and she said something to me like, well, if you want help getting out of there, I can help.

17:33And I was like, God, I'd love to be out of here right now, but I don't think anybody can carry me out or guide me out. I think there's deep wealth and wisdom in this place and I meant to sort of marinate in it for a while. And it's challenging when people around you are tapping into your tapping into your sense of purpose and I feel into your level of vitality around that right now. And I can really feel where I'm not there in the same way that I might have been five years ago. And that's also really painful, right? Like to watch the people around you shining and living on purpose and to be primordial goo in the process.

18:41You know, there's, it's really, it's a really interesting way to hold that story that makes it relate to it in so many ways, but there's this. I know there's a universal why I have now that I've come from my own experience and probably from, you know, reading of others, but you can't find your new purpose well in any way shape or form in the old purpose. And every, at every, at every switch in, I'm just going to call levels of awareness or consciousness for lack of a better. You're going to call it that. Are we talking about David Hawkins again? We could, we could be cut over anything. I mean, I'll come back. I'll come back to it. But as we, as we shift in level, a level of consciousness is simply a way in which we see the world. If we see the world from a place of anger, that's one level of consciousness, if it's placed through peace, it's different. As we trans, as we move from one to the next, it's whatever meaning we made in the world from that perspective, it's going to be different from the next one. And there's an inevitably this phase of disorientation, depression, despair, and mundaneness as we make that transition that I don't think it's avoidable.

19:49It's just part of the experience that it's like it's the hardest thing and so many people will travel back into the, you know, the old world because it's just too hard to to exist in this place of not knowing long enough to allow that new purpose to emerge because if you knew what it was, you jump into it. The reality is you don't know what it is. You'll find out and it'll be wonderful. No one can tell you you can follow some advice of other people who have done their own journey as to things you can do that will help you understand it. But it's your journey to take a loan and no one can do it for you. And the answers you don't know right now. Yeah, and being in that place of not knowing is one of the hardest places to be because it's very easy to get caught up in fear. Yeah. And just shut down. And this process as one, as you said, of opening wide. And, you know, we had a friend visiting us this weekend and she's, she's a lot younger than we are.

20:53And she's in recovery and she's really beautiful and wise. And she was talking to me about how I've been feeling and I've, I'm becoming more and more comfortable really sharing which often comes and surprises hasn't yet here with tears because there's a real, the real grief inside of me for what has died. I really like that person. I don't know what's going as your entire identity. Obviously not surprising, right? Yeah, but it's, there's, it's, I liked, I liked her. And the world liked her too. So it's, it's an, it's a very interesting place to be. And I said to her. I said something to her about like, I just want to know what my purpose is. I just want to connect with a sense of where I meant to go next. And she very wisely in a way that I won't be able to speak perfectly here said, well, that's ego too.

21:57And I said what? And she said, the part of you that still wants to know, the part of you that still wants to connect with what that is, that's still your ego holding on. And if you can surrender it, then the divine will be able to work through you and show you. And for those of us that are used to having any level of control over what we do or any sense of clarity around what step comes next or what I'm creating next. Or what I'm moving into producing next. It doesn't, there's no room for that here. And there's this real place of, can you find the richness in the darkness?

22:59I mean, seeds, seeds grow in the darkness. It's not until they've gathered enough in the darkness that they sprout forth. But for us as humans who live on this plane of producing and recognition and acknowledgement and all the rest of it, being in the darkness feels like primordial due. And we're not taught much about how to be in this place. And yet, you know, I'm sitting here thinking all of a sudden, the children's work is like her book title, the wisdom of no escape. There is no escaping the cocoon for the caterpillar who turns into primordial. There is an if anybody tried and this story of the caterpillar is one that I find so incredibly powerful, which is, you know, a man, a man comes and sees a caterpillar.

24:08Well, it sees a cocoon and sees what's inside of the cocoon, pushing and prodding and working in this tiny little hole present where a piece of a wing is trying to push itself out. And he decides he wants to come and help. So he takes some scissors and cuts the cocoon a little bit. Well, what he didn't know was that the struggle of coming out of the cocoon was essential for that caterpillar to become the butterfly. Because all of the moisture and the butterfly's wings is let go of through that struggle. And that's what allows the butterfly to fly. But when he cuts the cocoon too early. Sorry. The butterfly flows to the ground and dies. And so this place of darkness, of not knowing, is an essential piece of this process.

25:11And I think, which is just coming to me now, it's the place in our lives that requires faith to stay in. Yeah. I mean, there's always terms for it. But one is the dark night of the soul for that reason. It's dark. And it's the emergence of the soul. And you made this comment earlier about how, you know, we're not taught this, this part of life, although it seems to be the accidentally most important part of life. And the things we are, it's just not part of our mainstream curriculum. Every spiritual teacher throughout the ages have talked to this very one thing. They've prepared us for this absolute one thing that will happen. I think part of the challenge with spiritual teaching though is that for so many, not for all. But so many of the teachers that we look to for guidance in that.

26:14So many of them have done that alone in a cave alone separate from disconnected from. And what we're being challenged to do in our society is to do that as a friend wants that to me in the middle of New York City. Right. Can you sit on a street in the middle of New York City with all of the noise and bustle and hustle with everybody in their story. And can you do this work? Anyways. And I wonder if the answer to that question. I'm just getting playful. Here's no, you can't. And that's why it was always the stories are spoken about 40 days in the desert three days in the river three days in the cave. It's always told and there's this period of time where you need to ice you need to pull yourself away from the old identity from the old system from the old sort of conventional wisdom as a way to transform. Because if you don't, it's going to it's going to be so confusing and pull you back to the transformation won't be complete. I don't know if that's true.

27:15But in the way you describe it, there are aspects of it. There may be a period of. You need to withdraw a little bit into yourself. So I think that that's a hundred percent. And I definitely know that retreat in my own body right now. But as a householder, as a mother, as somebody who's involved in the community, we don't have the luxury of going into the cave. But we do have to learn how to create space and quiet for us to be able to do this process and still be in this world. It's a metaphor, but yes. But what about why don't we want to pause there and we'll come back to explore the cave and the break. Welcome to Shanti Mission, a school for the soul. If you're seeking personal transformation, deeper spiritual awareness, sacred music or the support of a welcoming community,

28:21Shanti Mission offers signature workshops and healing programs in a warm and inclusive space, designed for growth and connection. For more information and to access free resources, visit ShantiMission.org. Together, we can anchor peace. Want to speak or who can inspire your audience and keep them laughing and learning all in the same moment? I'm Erica Gummany, and that's exactly what I hope to do when blending personal stories, deeper spiritual insights and practical wisdom with a whole lot of humor that keeps everyone engaged. The intention is to create safe, transformative spaces where real growth and connection happen. We'll need to speak or facilitate something amazing at yourpivotalpoint.com. Tune in to Break Free and Trust, a redesigned for living with me, Jacqueline. And me, Chris, on Transformation Talk Radio every second and fourth Monday at 3pm.

29:22Learn to connect with your intrinsic power, to grow and to heal, and how to laugh at your own humaneness, and not take life too seriously. Witness the field of potential that arises when you take personal responsibility and become the divine creator in your own life. Visit theway-healing.com for my information. There is more to life than simply surviving or even thriving. There's flourishing. High performance and quantum success coach Beth Larson helps you calibrate and elevate your life. Beth specializes in working with women who want more from their life, more energy, joy, passion, connection, and more meaning. As your coach, she will help you get clear about your life. Prioritize what's important and become a master of your energy. Visit BethLarsonCoaching.com Join us on Commitoscope 4P coming every second Wednesday at 12.30pm Pacific time. On Transformation Talk, Rev Allusion, where you are invited to revel in your becoming better and brighter on purpose.

30:30This isn't just a show, it's a prayer disguised as a podcast, and together we are revolving on purpose. Visit www.celestialempowerment.com for more information. Visit www.celestialempowerment.com for more information. Visit www.celestialempowerment.com for more information. We've got a question, comment from Roy in the chat. I'm going to read part of it. I want to thank Roy and everyone else who's been participating in the last few episodes. It's great to have these. I also relate to the impatience of wanting to have more control or know what's next. I want to achieve my whole life in wanting and just being is a challenge for me. I'm going to tackle that one because I can really relate to that. When I went into this place for sure, like I was 100% over-hiergiver in the world.

31:32I liked to control my environment. I was good at making things happen. I was very much identified with being a doer and identified with all these sort of trappings of the manifest world. This part for me was just fully surrendering and letting go of the need to know and the need to know what was next. It took a while to practice, but what I guess a way to describe this is I think just as a top-down process. I've just telling ourselves, okay, need to let go, need to be different, need to live my life in an entirely different way in the way I was going to live. It's almost impossible as a mental exercise. I think I've shared this in this podcast before. I dove deeply into a somatic type of exercises for an extended period of time as I went through this process of yoga, meditation, prayer, breathwork, reading, spiritual literature, as a way to work from the bottom up.

32:34In this, I can't explain how it worked or why it worked. It really allowed my mind to relax and facilitate the process of letting go of needing to know what was next and needed to know what the future looked like. It got me into this place of recognizing that actually what I was moving into, it's called the great mystery for a reason. I don't know the answers to it, and I don't need to know, in fact, I don't want to know. But it took several years going back to our metaphorical cave before I started to get any real clarity of what my future path is going to look like. I had in there just let go of the need for it to look anything like the past, like the past path had been on. I can also really, I can also really relate to the statement and or the pondering. And I think a part of a part of what happens as we enter this place of primordial due, just become a new favorite turn.

33:38Is that what we identified as high achievement becomes tied to smaller stories about who we were. The high achievement doesn't hold the same value anymore. It's shifted. We can see it for what it was. And so going back into that is almost impossible from this place. What happens in this process of sort of hanging out in the unknown. Is this place of watching my dear friend, he actually spoke to it earlier today is like your soul is dragging your human through the mud and your human is kicking and screaming. Because the human doesn't like to be in a place of not knowing. And it definitely doesn't love to be in a place of not doing when doing is the only way that it's known itself worth itself value its purpose.

34:50But in being in that place, the only way that the human can actually relax is by surrendering and allowing itself to be pulled in a particular direction, which I think if I really go back to Joseph Campbell's work, that's what he was really speaking to was the call of the soul. It wasn't about following the thing you were doing, but it was following the whispers of the soul. And the only way to hear those whispers is to get into a place of quiet. And the interesting thing is that in some ways, as we let go of all these high achieving, doing kind of behaviors. What we recognize is this place of not doing, of just being, it's far louder in a lot of ways, because we can finally hear the voices that we were trying to quiet.

35:55And what we experience is this void in some ways. You know, all of our doings are dopamine hits. And in this place that feels at times, sometimes it feels very rich, sometimes it feels really vapid. There's not a lot of dopamine hits. We notice, I notice, man did I notice over the last month, this real desire to like disappear and TV or disappear into a book and completely disengage from this place because it's too uncomfortable. And then this awareness that, well, that's just my human taking and screaming and the only thing that it's going to do is prolong this place because unfortunately you said some people will just go back to their old ways.

36:55My experience throughout my life has been that as these moments happen, once you're awake, you can't go back to sleep, not really. Not without muting or numbing, you can't really go back to sleep once you've become a butterfly and you're looking, you're looking out over the world. You know, it's interesting. You're what you caught on to is the Joseph Campbell's the whispering of the soul. I caught on to the slaying of the dragon. Right. And it's the same part of the story. It's like, you know, a big part of the hero's journey is, you know, the night slays the dragon. The dragon is guarding the treasure. Well, the dragon is the ego, the treasure is the identity. It's the part of us that's needing to die for the soul to fully emerge and a good, you know, coming back into like the mental aspect of it is we're not looking to replace an old identity with a new identity.

37:55It's the end of the identity. And that's what's so hard about it. It's not like, okay, I'm going to be now. I'm going to be this particular this character that does these things. It's being replaced with a way of being, which transcends identity because it's a beingness in the world. And it's very, very different. And that's the, that's the ego death that we're talking about. And so again, when looking for like, this is my old identity, you know, what's the new I'm going to be. It's like just replacing the dragon. And it even makes me, you know, think like when this, when this sort of journey goes awry, it's often how many times have we heard about a spiritual teacher that has this massive fall from grace because guess what they've assumed the identity of a spiritual teacher. And it's no, it's no different than assuming the identity of the Wall Street trader. It just has a different cloak on and it's told itself a different maladaptive story, but it's just an identity again. So it's almost like the butterfly. Try to turn back into a caterpillar like goes the other way in some respects.

38:55Yeah. You know, and I'm sitting here and I'm thinking about two things. I'm going to speak to the first one first, which is that last week, I'm not really on social media very much. And I think that's that sort of this place of in your original quote, where it just becomes not very interesting anymore. But I was on social media and I saw something that if you looked up on Instagram, actually, if you looked up on Google, the most touching insurance had. I think you'd find this, this particular piece and it's this really beautiful. It's a video of a man who notices a plant dying on his way to work and puts it under what you call it like when water comes down. It puts it puts it under a water spout and he sees a woman and her daughter on the street begging for money for her daughter to get an education.

39:59And he sees an old woman pushing a cart and in each moment he chooses to serve. And they're very, very simple, very small gestures that he repeats every day on his way to work. And you see the impact that that has on the people that he's touching emotionally. Some of them are very small and some of the impacts are very big. But I watched it and I was brought to tears watching it because what I recognized was, oh, that's all that matters now. All that matters now is that you find a way to be in service but in small gestures, not in the grand I'm on stage doing something. Not in the, oh, wow, the whole world is acknowledging me for something. But in the invisible ways that most people don't ever see because that's what actually, that's true meaning.

41:04And I was, I was really, really struck by the simplicity of the message and how deeply it touched this soul who is definitely dragging a human, kicking and screaming in this moment. The other thing I wanted to share is, you know, I'm a teacher. And to be in a position where I'm experiencing this really deep struggle internally. And to hold the capacity to be as transparent as I can be with the people who are in my environment feels really important because it feels like an invitation to be able to explore together.

42:06It also feels really important because my ego would tell me, you have no business teaching if you're sitting in this place. If you haven't moved through this place, you shouldn't be teaching anybody anything. You don't know. And there's this piece of me that wakes up when I hear that voice that says, well, isn't this what teaching is all about. I remember, and I don't know if I told this story on another podcast, but I remember there was a woman that used to sit in my yoga classes when I taught in the city. Much older than me, who came up to me one day, she kept inviting me to her class. It was a spirituality class and I kept saying thank you, but I'm good. And then one day, she came up to me and asked for help and asked if I would sit with her.

43:07I guess more as a therapist than anything else. And I remember thinking on my way there, I'm such a baby in comparison. What could I possibly know that could help her? And then realized that's your ego. She's asking for help, so step into, step into serving her. And I sat with her and she came undone in my arms. And I remember the feeling that I had in that moment and the feeling was, oh, now I want to come to your classes. I want to sit with you because your capacity to unwind is teaching me that to be in your presence. Is to be in the process of unwinding our humanity, not hiding it, not pretending it away. Not sitting on some state needing to be ahead of more knowledgeable than transmitting something that I've arrived at that I can now share,

44:16but rather sitting with, being with, growing with, unbecoming with, and that felt incredibly powerful and significant. And when you're going through it, it doesn't feel great. But I really do think this is the place where wisdom comes from. Well, I think it's, I think it's precisely, we've talked about this in the podcast is the only thing we have to teach. The only thing we have to share that's of any value to anyone is our own experience. Everything else is just nonsense. We've gathered from books or from a broken system that, you know, and I, I believe Alan Watts is world that is full of manipulation and propaganda and tired formulas. We don't know, or I don't know what truth is in there, but I know the truth in my own experience. And I trust in that many of these, you know, teachers before that have just spoke about their own experience and said, just follow me. Here's what I've done, you know, take it or leave it. That's, that's truth. That's true teaching.

45:17And so anyone that's, you know, in your sphere, that's, you know, privileged enough to be in contact with you as you're going through this thing. I was getting the most profound teaching in the world as you share your experience in real time with them. That is, that is truth. That is knowledge. That's the kind of stuff that actually changes the world, not having gone through it and then, you know, crafting a story that sounds like it's, it's interesting. That's, that's just a whole, that's, again, that's a different level of consciousness than that. I am in this. I will share this and I will, and I will let the vibrational frequency of whatever's happening to me happen to you. I think that is, I think that is the definition of a spiritual teacher. Maybe. Yeah. I would really encourage any of you that are moving through something similar. It'll look different for all of us. Either through, if there's people in your community, if there's a teacher that you are really drawn to, if there are books that really pull you in to find a way to be able to share what's happening for you.

46:35For myself, that in sharing, I, a lot of, a lot of what's been happening for me has been very much hidden from you and partly because it needs to be in order for that transformation to happen. But I hit a point where it was really I could feel myself retreating and not just retreating into me, but retreating away from. People that I love hiding, if you will, from people that I feel really connected to because they don't really want to be seen in this place. And I felt this real point where it was like, okay, Jack, now you have, now you have to reach out to say, hey, this is what's on my plate right now. I'm sitting in this place of primordial goo, and, and I want, and I want to be seen in this place, not to be celebrated or acknowledged, but so that it can be known that this is where I am so that you can meet me here.

47:52The weight that I was carrying around being here really began to fall away, and my nervous system really quieted as a few people in my sphere that I really trust could say, actually some of, it wasn't their words, it was just their presence could hear me. And, and not turn away from me when part of my human wanted nothing to do with. Can you, you know, I'm curious in these conversations, was there, was there a differentiation, was there people that could hear and the people that couldn't, and were there people that you said, I don't think they can hear me, so I'm not going to have this conversation. How do you navigate that? I think you navigate it with your intuition, and you reach out to people that you think will hear you, and sometimes it'll be hidden best.

48:55But, you know, for me, some of, some of the beauty in this process is that I reached out, I reached out to one friend who isn't in this world so much, you know, she's, she's beautiful in her own right, but she's not really doing the same kind of thing that I'm doing, and she probably had some of the deepest with them to give me. I was sharing something with her about really leaning into this teacher and learning a lot, and she said something to me like, hey, do you think maybe you need to slow down a little bit? Do you think maybe it'd be okay if you actually just married it where you are right now? I know it's uncomfortable, but maybe, maybe this process is not meant to be heard, maybe this process takes time. And I actually felt incredibly grateful for having the courage to bring it up with somebody who might not meet me in it, because there was wisdom there too, if I was willing to hear it.

50:06Yeah, and you know, it's just because you brought it up, it's like there's these, these common features that we've identified up to the primary yoga phase. And the one you identified is this one of like wanting to learn it all, like wanting to bring all these teachers and information and whatnot. And this friend stepped in and said, okay, maybe from a different perspective, is that serving you? As you've digested that, how can you make it make sense of all we're talking about here and that maybe it is a good idea to slow down or potentially good idea to slow down? Way back when I was in Chinese medical school, a teacher of mine said something that I thought about also this morning, you're bringing up, which is, he was trying to teach me the same thing. I think speeding up is kind of my gig, it's my default mode, and slowing down is my teacher.

51:07And he said to me, Jacqueline, you can't force, you can't rush a fruit to ripen. And, you know, at the time, I heard him and I sort of got it, but in time, you can't force an orange to be ripe and juicy and ready. It gets ripe and juice and ready in its own timing in sunlight, in time. And we're the same, there's a season, right? There's a season for us to be ripening quickly and there's a season for us to be hibernating and going really quiet. And sometimes we're in season, I think I'm a little bit out of season, because we're moving into spring and they still feel very much in fall and winter. But I think that the surrendering, surrendering to that knowing that there's a season for everything and that, excuse me, the only constant in life is change.

52:23And sometimes we feel like life is stagnant, but sometimes it's in that place of what seems stagnant that we're gathering enough energy to be able to then step into through a new door. And we need to get uncomfortable to change. And just, I know we're running out of time here, I just want to, I want to address that, that time in patients aspect in terms of cycles. Even you go back to Roy's question, when we come out of the sort of this sort of manic, curly, curly word, we want things to happen quickly, but we do move in cycles, and I've really come to appreciate that. I mean, I'm a newbie to this space, I've been in it about seven years, seven years cycle, particularly for men, I know better, but my, my clock started reset on me at 49, seventh year into my seventh year cycle, the whole, my whole world fall apart, and I went into the cocoon.

53:24And I tried, and I tried to drink from a fire hose to rush it at the start and doing all this yoga and stuff like that. And then some were in there, I realized, I just got it back, I held off this thing, what had happened. And here I am turning 56 this year, the next seventh year, and it's like I realized I'm more I meant to be and it didn't matter a whole lot what I did in there, except just have the patients to ride this thing out. And I don't know what the next seven years will be, but it'll be a lot, a lot more patients in it. Yeah, but that was the old identity wanted to do quickly, and not so much anymore. Yeah, well, I think that's a really beautiful place actually for us to end patients, patients, especially in a society that feeds itself on the quickest dopamine hits that we can get is a challenging one to cultivate, but it's essential. And if we look to nature, which I do in most of my work will know that nature is patient, there is no rushing and when nature rushes like a flower comes out of the ground and it's February, oftentimes a frost hits on that flower needs to go back to rest before I can come into being again.

54:40And we're very much the same. Anyways, thank you for being here and thank you for thanks for listening to something that isn't always easy to share, but we thought it was really important to share with you. If you have any questions, you know how to find us. Thanks. See you in a couple weeks. Human listening to me, Chris. And me, Jacqueline, on break free and trust are redesigned for living. Tune in every second and fourth Monday at 3pm on Transformation Talk Radio for more real conversations of a life, death, and everything in between. Learn to connect with your intrinsic power to grow and heal, how to laugh at your own humanless and not take life too seriously. Through healthy conversations between the feminine and the masculine, you will learn how to harness the power of relationship and the mirror to prevent your shadow and to trust that any obstacle that gets in your way is there to help you grow.

55:41For more information or to connect with us personally, visit the way-healing.com. That's the way-healing.com. Thank you.