Doping Scandals, Coach Sackings & Shock Defeats - Is Georgian Rugby Falling Apart?

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1:03paid membership with connected payment account required to Experience.com for details. Welcome back to the HG rugby podcast. Now, if you thought that the six nations was mad this year, wait until you hear about its little brother, the Rugby Europe Championship. We had upsets way down the order. We had a shock winner in the final and we even had a doping scandal that has rocked the sport too. It's very cool. Joining me to break down all of the gossip and the details is Karl Dawson, a friend of the show. Welcome back Karl. Thank you very much, yeah. Obviously last time we jumped on was to talk about the rise of Spanish rugby. Now we get to talk about the near miss and the doping scandal and all the other fun that rugby Europe seems to offer as well. Well, it's a high standard, mate, because that Spanish rugby podcast went absolutely mad. People can find it if you search on YouTube, you can search HG rugby Spain or if you're trolled back in the audio versions, which everyone you're listening to, you'll be able to find it. That was a very popular podcast. You've got high

2:03standards to meet, mate. Yeah, I've got to shoot high now, mate, especially after after what that we didn't expect. I don't know that to go as far as it did, but there is obviously an appetite for rugby Europe and it's growing bigger and bigger every day. 100 percent, mate, 100 percent. So let's get straight into it. We have to say, obrigado to our, is that right? To our new European overlords, Portugal. Now, I never would have seen this coming. So talk we through how Portugal went from, let's be honest, since the 2023 rugby World Cup, Portugal had been a bit of a non-event in rugby. They got all that goodwill and failed to deliver on it. Now, all of a sudden from nowhere, they're rugby Europe champions again. Yeah, so I've had the pleasure of obviously dealing with a lot of the Portuguese side. Obviously, Tom Sackleton on previously. I was over there for the Ireland A game when they took the batter in as well. So I was there for the 106 to 7 defeat over

3:04Ireland A. Probably the lowest point of Portuguese rugby, probably possibly on par with obviously the rugby Europe semi-final defeat to Spain in Lisbon as well, which was a big, big shocker for them. But every time I spoke to him, it was a case of there's a rebuild, there's a rebuild. There is a process to this. And they managed to time it well. They blooded a lot of a lot of you through that process as well. And there's a lot of players that have developed with the Portuguese rugby. So there are a lot of the top 12 in Portugal support the actual national team. So they're available consistently. They don't have to rely consistently on the top 14 or the Proditor to be available for players. So they've managed to uncover the new 10 as well, Fugo Cabarero, which is an absolute sensation. Plays with in Portugal always available, always steady and just seem to add that edge that they missed so much last season as well.

4:06They had obviously, I think it was Aubrey at 10 or Fugo Aubrey at 10 last time. And just very inexperienced, very naive with some of his decision-making. And it kind of caught Portugal out. And then the summer, obviously the Philippa in the Ireland game. And then we saw little inklings of what was possible of them in the November internationals. And then from game one, they have been absolutely on it in the wreck, like they have been phenomenal through the backline. And that's always been Portuguese super strength. I actually spoke with Simon Maddox and I was chatting with him and I was like, the Portuguese, the best way I could describe Portugal's rare rugby was organised chaos. He took that as a bit of an offence because he's like, well, it's not chaos because we know what we're doing. And I was like, yeah, but that's what organised chaos is. Like, nobody else knows what you're doing, but you guys might. And they were still trying to play that

5:10way, but there was an element that they didn't know how to play it. And this season, it's clicked. When you've got Rodrigo Marta being able to run through lines through like a ghost. He's like the Portuguese version of Ninny Ashvilley, like he was different gravy in this tournament. And just everything clicked, everything was perfect. Georgia were there for the taking from day dot. I've said this in a couple of other bits. Georgia were there for the taking in this tournament and Spain led it slip and Portugal took the opportunity. Simple as that, they've risen from the ashes of pretty much a shit show from the 2023 lot players retire because they couldn't make it as pro players. So they retired and went into being a come a dentist. Well, have them become a car salesman. Look, there's all these different job roles that they went into because they knew it wasn't a long-term role. So they lost a lot of key players. They re-blooded new players more focus on top 12 and the results have paid. Pay dividends, obviously,

6:13winning the wrecking the way they did. Fair play to them. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the key lesson. I hope someone from the WIU is listening. You've got to get your house in order at home, not Ryan, other people to come and sort out for you and the results are there. But, mate, you kind of alluded to it. Georgia, this is kind of the meaty one for it, like for where do we begin? I mean, we'll come to the actual on the on fields, I think, afterwards. But we've got to talk about the off-field stuff first because it kind of the news broke. Now, we'd heard Whispering's of this a few months ago. I feel like maybe even Christmas. I texted you back in November because I was privy to this information back in November, but kind of through a source. I was not really allowed to bring it to the public domain because it obviously affects investigations and stuff like that. But yeah, we were sort of sat on this one for a little while, mate, and

7:14then it suddenly just broke, and I was like, okay, we can sort of talk about it now. So the kind of first that we heard of it was, I think it was a former captain. Yeah, Merak. Well, Merak Cherakadze was used as the reason behind it, shall we say. So, there's also been another interview that I've seen since he was used as a scapegoat. He wasn't actually, he said he wasn't aware he was then given a six-year ban without knowing. Basically, it was like the Mike Tyson back in the day where he was using a fake penis with filled with somebody else's urine. There was a test that somebody had mixed his test and stuff like that. There's been systematic doping from 2019 through to 2023. I think they found there's six individual cases. Six other players have been roped into this. The team doctors

8:19been sacked. It goes a lot deeper than this. 100% it goes a lot deeper than this. And they've obviously used their class as recreational drugs. It's around PEDs. It's around performance in hearts and drugs. There was conversations around some of the tests that were being used as clean tests. Also had dirty tests in them. And it's a bit of a whole mess on top of everything helps that's going on as well. There's other bits that all tie into this, mate. But yeah, the skate goat was utilised as Merrick Sharkadzi. He's now had his ban from six years, reduced to two years because he's changed from rugby to MMA. So he's now an MMA fighter instead. While his ban had been reduced, so he was 104 caps. He was a key crucial player for Georgia during the World Cup and had his plans to finish his career at a 2027 World Cup. But he got called into

9:19the training ground one day and said, mate, you've got six year ban. That's it. See you later. Thank you very much. That's how that ended for him. It's absolutely mad. And it's like, I don't think scandal on this kind of scale is big news anyway. But kind of Georgia with the good will they had in so much of the rugby community, you know, all the talk about getting them into the six nations and going the game and all this stuff, which we talked about on our Spanish podcast about, you know, the pros and cons of that. And now for this, it just, I mean, we'll get into some more stuff in a second, but it's hard to overstate just how big this, especially for rugby Europe. I mean, what did will rugby say that they still haven't decided on the sporting sanctions for Georgia yet? Correct. Yeah. So obviously, that's what potentially four or five rugby Europe championships titles at risk. They potentially have them removed. There's a potential that

10:22there'll be banned from rugby Europe. They'll be banned from the World Cup potentially as well coming up. So yeah, there's a lot to do. Obviously, I was there at the Rec Finals. Don't the doping testers were everywhere. It was they were and there was a say no to doping t-shirts being worn by the officials as well, which was quite ironic. I was like, was that planned? Or they were like, oh, no, no, that that was already happening. I was like, okay, Perra. Perfectly timed announcement alongside the t-shirts that everyone was wearing, but they were everywhere. Yeah, it's an absolute mess and it tarnishes all the hard work that they put into it, but there's obviously a lot going on off field for Georgia rugby as well. Well, let's get into that now. So there's been all the chat about the Six Nations. And I saw it again, Wales Online Recycled, the old story about Black Lion and stuff that are getting into the URC. But what are you hearing

11:30that you feel comfortable talking about that you're hearing from behind the scenes in Georgia in terms of, you know, the governance of the game and things like that. Because we've been talking off errands even outside of the doping scandal that we've just seen. It feels like that there are things not all as well in the ballroom. Yeah, so there's obviously a lot of conversations in hallways and in dark, dark places that probably don't always need to get out, but for the ones that have fairly open, Georgia of kind of, a lot of it was funded by the government still through circles and stuff like that. So as you probably noticed, they're not using the bigger stadiums into BC anymore. So they're using one of the smaller stadiums because the bigger stadiums sort of been pushed towards football. A lot of fundings now been pushed towards football instead in Georgia because Georgia haven't got into the Six Nations like they sort of sold the dreams of the government. So the government have kind of moved the funding away from rugby. So

12:37that can only pan badly. They've released all of their media staff the other week as well, just before the rep finals. So there's no media, technically media staff working for Georgia rugby any longer. There's, yeah, there's just a lot of black lines got obviously got withdrawn from their wreck supercut because they thought it wasn't of a good enough standard for them to develop. The URC won't take them because nobody wants to travel to the police because it costs too much. South Africans blocked it, I think. Yeah, so they also they looked at it. I heard that they were looking at trying to enter a league in Australia as well just to get game time. They were looking at the MLR when all the teams were dropping around. They were looking at any league that would potentially open the door and nobody's opened the door. That's why a lot of the black lines you'll probably start seeing appearing more in the proledure or top 14 and other teams around. But there is a little gem that for the URC spot that's been spoken about and it's potentially

13:46between a Welsh and a Spanish set up. Okay, this, welcome to the Segway of the podcast I didn't expect. A Spanish set up, we've again, check out our Spain podcast. I think there's massive potential for rugby and Spain, massive potential for rugby and Spain, but I wouldn't have thought the professional rugby and Spain would be ready for something like that yet. Well, obviously the obviously the Iberians won the Super Cup this year quite constantly. So they they've centralized contracted 35 players now. So the Spanish clubs have now, the Spanish nation have now got 35 players centrally contracted to play for the Iberians and then they're contracted out to clubs within the division to honour. So to keep key players within Spain available for the Iberians and for the national side, there's 35 players that centralised contracts. Other players have been managed to negotiate their contracts with their top 14 clubs, etc to make himself available, like Mario Pachardi when I had him on. He'd gone to the national at Un to play there, but he'd

14:51negotiated in his contract that he was able to be released for all Spain camps. So any, so there's a lot of players out there to try and make this available. So they comfortably won the rugby Europe Super Cup, the URC spots available. One of the Welsh regions is obviously whatever's happening in Wales, but there is there is conversations at a higher level potentially for a merger of resource between a Welsh and a Spanish set up I've heard. This is the biggest opportunity for Spain to get in the door at the URC level, because once this door is closed I can't see anyone else getting in it, but there's apparently there's there is conversations going on. Well, you've managed to tell me something about Welsh rugby that I didn't know. I've heard some strange merger stories in Welsh rugby in the past, so that's up there. I'm heard you were right. Goodness me. I think I better move on before we get any more excitement on that one. Wow,

15:58yeah. So anyway, coming back to Georgia, so when you said you said originally you felt that Georgia were there for the taking. What made you say that? Yeah, so watching during the summer during the November International, there weren't quite there. Obviously Rich Cockrell left after some probably unflattering results that Georgia would normally be used to. It just seemed that obviously what was happening as well was looming over him a little bit, like it just didn't see. They, the first game of the wreck as well, they went to Switzerland and, or sorry, they played Switzerland and the first half they got held to what? Seven, seven, three, or somewhat again, they were only seven, three ahead. So, and then obviously they managed to go through the gears. That was more because of Switzerland's sort of still being new to the wreck. Then they,

17:05they looked very lackluster against the the Dutch as well, but obviously the Dutch have now managed to like recap 18 new players, et cetera, et cetera. So there's a whole different process going on in the in the Dutch team, which we'll catch up a later on anyway. But Georgia just didn't look Georgia-esque. Then in the Spain game, if they hadn't played Kermann Avicetta in the first half, but it started with Tanny by Spain would have won comfortably. That's my opinion. They, they looked a completely different team in the second half with Tanny and the same with that would have then obviously had them on the opposite side. To Portugal, they'd have had to, they'd obviously had the better draw. Portugal would have obviously had to have welcomed to Georgia for the semi-final, et cetera. There was a there was a much better opportunity for Spain and even Pablo come out as well, Bozer and said there's quite a few players didn't take their opportunity this tournament that I think there was an element of it. It was there for prepping for

18:10the well cup, but also it was the best opportunity for them to win and a lot of Portugal took that opportunity because well, I'm not I'm sure you saw the semi-final as well because Spain against Portugal, they basically hadn't they didn't score points for what 40-50 minutes. It was thought it was an absolute shut out, but Georgia even conceded 30 points to Romania and Romania haven't looked great for a little while. They looked very good against Spain, they just managed to get the ball ticking, but Georgia would effort to take it, make 100% and I think it was an accumulation of everything. They got the new they've got a part, they've got an interim coach before the new head coach comes in in the summer. It's a changing of styles. He's got to be having to think now. My goodness, because he's still coaching it, breathe and breathe of all your appointed his replacement. Correct, tied into it. Two years there with a two-year deal with the two-year extension. The current Marco, is it Bargolomia or whatever, he's the current interim head coach,

19:17he's staying on as the assistant, so they've used it as a transition. They've brought more players back in, etc, but they just don't look as deadly as they did. They've got some exceptional players coming through, even Tabu Zadze doesn't look, he looks a shadow of himself from what he out, what he scored, nine tries in the last wreck, and I think he got one this tournament, so it's like Nini Ash really still just looks unreal, but again, a show of a plan. Did you get picked in the end? Yeah, so he come back for the Spain game, it was available for the Spain game, then available for the semis and for the final. But even in the final, they looked at moments, they looked exceptional. I was sat with Pascuali from the game day Boits and literally I said to him, I said, how the hell have they done that? So literally they managed to cover the whole whole width of the pitch in three passes, and just with pace, with speed, just the ability that

20:24they had, and you just think, when they turn it on, they turn it on, and I, at half time, Portugal had gone down to 14 men for a yellow card, Georgia just got a trial on the break, and I was just like, that's the time they switched it on. Georgia's getting ruthless at that point, that didn't come. And yeah, I said it was for grabs, and I actually spoke with one of the Spanish players when I went to Amsterdam, and I said, this is the best opportunity that somebody beats Georgia, and they said, I hope so, and they didn't take the opportunity, so it was a bit of a show. Yeah, we're coming back to that. So yeah, Nini Ash really did get picked, because that was one of the things I was going to ask. The whole Richard Cockrell thing, because he's come out and done an interview, that he said that in his contract was that he had to beat a tier one nation in the first two years, and obviously in the final game of November against Japan, they kick at, Japan kicked three points in overtime to beat them by one point, and that also moves Japan

21:29into the top 12. Georgia dropped down to 13th, which is massive for the World Cup seeding. Yeah. And he said, then that was it. That was gone. So as soon as that kick went over, Georgia were contractually allowed to say goodbye. There was more going on behind the scenes than just that as well. I think, obviously, Cockers is very vocal, and I think there was a bit more of a challenge from him to the hierarchy of, well, if you don't like it, sack me, I think there was a bit more of an element of around that. And obviously, he'd probably been told about this as well, wherever he wanted to exit before he got dragged into any conversation around it, because having met the bloke and how to the point is I'm pretty much guaranteed he would be bang against this sort of investigation, and this conspiracy commission investigation, everything like this. The last thing I could

22:30imagine Cockers wanted to be involved in is a dope in scandal. Wow. My goodness. My goodness. Anyway, we're going to carry on now to talk about the rest of the rugby Europe championship. We'll talk about Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, the lot. But before we go and have that conversation, just remind people who are watching, if you're enjoying what you're seeing so far, please consider subscribing to the HG rugby podcast. There are no rules about what I talk about on this show. Last podcast I spoke about Scottish rugby. I've spoken about Irish rugby, French rugby, Italian rugby, Canadian rugby. Basically, anything that takes my fancy, I tend to spend a little bit of time talking about if you're listening on audio, please consider giving a five-star rating. You can even leave a comment if you are on Spotify. I'm just getting involved. I'm interested to hear from you. I'm interested to hear where you are listening or watching from if you are from Georgia, because I know I've got a couple of Georgia subscribers. If you are coming back from the Spain podcast, say a lot to us. And yeah, many thanks to everybody who hits that subscribe button and joins me on this journey.

23:55Protein is now at Starbucks, and it's never tasted so good. You can add protein, cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or matcha. Try it today at Starbucks. America leads the world in medicine development. It matters. We get new medicines first, nearly three years faster. Five million Americans go to work because we make medicines here at home, and not relying on other countries keeps us safe. But China is racing to overtake us. Will we let them or will we choose to stay ahead? When America leads, America cures. Let's tell Washington to keep us in the lead. Learn how at americacures.com. Pay for it by Farmer. Okay Carl, let's now deep dive into it. Let's start with Spain. Our favorite topic, your home. You kind of mentioned it already missed opportunity for Spain. Could have been there year. Is Spanish rugby still rising in your opinion or is it faltered a little bit?

25:00Yes, it is on the rise. I think last year was probably more of the boom before the reset. So a lot of obviously the focus last seat last sort of wreck was get qualified for the well cut by no other Ezra graces they had to qualify. So there was no chance they were taking any risks around it. They stuck with a squad, they built momentum, got the right seeding for the draw, for the well cut as well. Then there's kind of an element of we can reset. But I think they expected some of the players in the back up spots to potentially be a bit better than what they actually got the products out of. So I was there obviously in the in the Netherlands game and when Gonzalo Gunwessa took he just he's knee blew up like in every every fucking direction. He was in absolute bits. He's out for a year. He was playing ten. He just he everything was ticking very well

26:03with him at ten. He took that hit and then that was that was that. They've also signed up. They've kind of come away from the Bon Tempo kicking game. That that was bad. That was my favourite thing about them. I loved it but it was it was hardly used this tournament. He wasn't always available. I think there's I think he's got a knock and stuff. So they didn't have that momentum to sort of pull him and keep him into games. So I think there was a change of game plan change of focus of what other options have we got which was good to see that there is other options but some of the other options potentially didn't take their opportunities. And when we got to the semi-final against Portugal they did that same number on the Portuguese last season. So they literally slowed the play down. I straighted them. Got the ref on their side. There was that momentum on them and the Portuguese went and did it to this time and they just didn't have

27:08an answer for it. So it was kind of a reverse psychology a reverse play and the Portuguese managed to make it work for them. And then they struggled to get going again with with the Romania game. Romania just managed to switch it on. The red card could have literally Romania could have fell apart but Romania just managed to just they they seem to be more of a tournament beast in that that element didn't start great but ended very strong. But the future is bright for Spain. We've got obviously Chino La Forge who who's coming from the sevens wasn't looking at playing 15s but it's now playing for Cisneros and obviously playing within the Spain set up. You've got John Vessel who's still around but is either the long term. We've got Alberto Camano that's playing so well across the back free any position. We've got multiple options at centers. The 10 obviously we've got Luciano Ricciardi who's now managed to get a loan deal from to lose to Arjen. I think so he

28:14gets more first team rugby in top 14 or probably the next season. So we've got Joe Merkler so the World Cup is now the focus. It's just this was potentially the best option to get that wreck win and end the Georgia curse should we say but the Portuguese have managed to do it but there's a lot of players injured as well within the Spanish set up. So there's a lot of key players that were from last season that are out. So Maria Pichardi was out. He got injured, done his shoulder, he's out for an injury. There's obviously Nicolas Info who come in at 10 alongside Tanny Boy. He picked up a knock young excite in 21-year-old with a different weight. He plays like Tanny but he's a little bit more chaotic which is a good way to describe it though because you then got, we've got Tanny Boy at 9, Alumsai Kermann, Arichetta who, Arichetta, is like very much like a Ben

29:16Young's. Steady, steady, steady, steady, slow, methodical way of playing which when you've got a 10 like Luciano Ricciardi outside doesn't work very well. When you've got Tanny Boy that can sneak round the blind, get the ball out of nowhere, just put blood teams on the back foot. Ricciardi is able to play his exceptional way of rugby this kid can see and he's also got one hell of a boot on him obviously. It was an example when England done the 21s, he was kicking, he just kept the ball ticking. But that was something we didn't really do in this wreck and yeah it was just, it was a bit of a shame but also there is enough to come away positives from it but it just feels hard to, especially without how our shit England did as well, got a cling on the summer. Neither of them really quite got to where I wanted it. What do you think of Spain's strategy

30:17of, they've gone quite different to everybody else. So normally in the rugby Europe championship teams with these exceptional judges tend to play the likes of Canada, USA, Tonga, and stuff in the November series for a Spain played against eight teams under 21s teams and development teams and gave Fiji a hell of a scare in the last game of the autumn as well. What do you think of that strategy because you could argue that someone like an England day is actually maybe stronger than a USA. So do you think that's a, do you think it's a smart thing? Do you think it's a bit money ball? There was a reason behind it. It was to do with ranking points. They won't officially declared that out loud but it was around ranking points. They didn't expect you're a guider to obviously manage to jump them but the, the ranking points were safe. They, nobody else could catch them. They were a great test and a great way of experiencing at that tier one level but not quite

31:21at that tier one level but no shade on what the games were. There were great, great post publicity. The Ireland Day game was brilliant. The England Day was great even in the torrential rain, invited the lead and obviously we managed to put one on Fiji again. It's like that's twice that they've nearly beat Fiji. So it shows exactly where Spanish rugby is but there was a tactical decision around those selections but I think it also benefited Spain being able to showcase what they can do at that tier, that level and the under 21s what test, what some players know are Calori coming over and scoring a tribe that he scored and there was one that he had disallowed that would have suplexed the one, the first try he scored. It's, it's just great to see that in Spain. That's the amazing bit is that they're willing to come to Spain and put that show on not just Kai Boschit and say na na you all right don't worry about it. That's the, that's the best way for these nations to get as close to tier one opposition as possible is now the route is the

32:24England days, Ireland days, Italy 15s, Scotland day. We've seen more of those games come up in those those those sort of international slots. That's exciting. Are the people still turning up to watch it? Yeah so this tournament, kind of Kai Bosch, the the big grand finale, it wasn't as them, as big of a sellout as hoped but the Fiji games are sellout, that was what nearly 10,000, the Yiganis game for Ireland day was 20,000 I think sellout. The Viadalid was a big washout because of the weather but again I think there was still 15,000 tickets sold but they had the Viadalid Darby on the same weekend. So El Salvador were playing Vrac over over the poppet Peperocho so you had that to compete with along with a torrential downpour. It was horrendous, it's filthy but there's the crowds are gathering that the interest is gathering, there's a lot around it but a lot of it's based on success and unfortunately we didn't we didn't get to the final so they were still

33:28scrabbling around the sell tickets but the atmosphere was amazing and the fan zone was filled and obviously some some team stayed to watch other games and it was hard though because it was split between two so it's steady enough to now we had the seventh from the fifth place games and then the Yiganis stadium had the obviously the bronze and the grand final so it was 20 minutes across Madrid so not everyone was going to do both sets but great platform, great place and another showcase obviously we've got the Viadalid for the sevens in the World Series coming up in the summer as well so Spain are putting their names out and obviously they've put the bid in for the 2035 World Cup so it can only be. Are they are they feeling confident about that because I've seen that South America is putting for 25. Argentina put the bid in yesterday so I think World Rugby have obviously got a big issue with taking it to South America, Japan obviously put a bid in.

34:30I think the middle ground will probably be a Spain bit obviously on bias so but I'd love to see in Argentina I'd love to be able to go to Argentina it is the natural next step in my opinion it has to go to Argentina in that sense just because of what they've become and as you you regularly speak about like the love of how the Argentinians play the game and the way that they've developed there's such a structure underneath the obviously the the super rugby Americas you've got the obviously you've got the Argentinian leagues at just the depth of teams and clubs and the passion and being able to go and see that in these stadiums up you just think World Rugby and fans are missing out on that opportunity being able to go there and watch that but it's not just being picked on rugby merit and it's politics and all those other govins that have got to be coming so I didn't probably the cost of inflation over there and it's just whether teams are able to

35:32make it as affordable as what a Spanish European World Cup would be but when you've got the option of potentially playing in the Bernabéu or the Camp Nou or via the Lid Stadium and you've got your gannes you've got all these other great grounds of the the Mistyre and Valencia you've got all of these illegal stadiums but are ready to host up to 90 to a hundred thousand people with if you'd sit outside with a one euro canya and you can just sit in the sun and imagine that September up to over World Cup in Spain you can fly in fly out whatever you wanted to do and just it's just amazing yeah absolutely sold sold okay let's talk about Romania now another another team that like you go back to last last summer the July tours of 2025 they got absolutely humiliated in every single game then they kind of built back to it in November you know respectable and then respectively again in rugby Europe what do you make of where they are well as a sort of

36:37alluded to earlier they're they're very much tournament beats they started very poorly obviously losing to Germany in the opening game what a shock that was well they should have lost to them in the first game last tournament to be honest but they it was there I missed just a few of the German team I was like this is your chance to be Romania because they weren't they weren't right and then they just grew into the tournament and they could have potentially come away with that bronze fought like the they're they're they're trying not being counted on the in the last seconds and knock on in the far corner they they they would have gone on to win by a point and it's the red card and they grew into the tournament but they've kind of got to be together as a group for a longer period of time in my opinion with Romania there's a lot of new players within that squad there's a lot of players out of clubs as well so some of them are free agents there's clubs that were a lot some have been released the Romanian League is not actually in

37:38season at the minute it's in their preseason obviously there were a few players that I know over there as well got they're they're prepping but they're also in two foot of snow and then so they've got no league game on there's players without a club there's new players coming in they they will they're trying to build something it's just again it's another nation that doesn't um it's not their first sport and that's the hard but like until you've got the financials around it the Romanian League is gathering pace with the obviously uh Freddie Burns got there and started to say Freddie Burns also has league yeah so you've got Freddie over there with uh obviously I had Adam Bernie on hit they've they've gone over there and they're like it's it's gathering like there is a lot behind it and the fans are passionate and but again it comes down to money and Romania haven't got I don't think they're one of those nations with a lot around it as well

38:41they haven't got a development squad underneath from too much that I've seen like it all it all comes together but the gaffer over there David seems to have got it it right in a tournament tournament and I think the one-off games I don't think they're that they don't switch on for I don't think they're that fast but put them into a tournament and they'll grow into a tournament that's how I see and I think they'll do they'll surprise some people depends on the draw on obviously with with with with the the World Cup obviously how it's gone I think the draws potentially hampered Spain but other teams will flourish from it so it'd be fun well yeah and speaking of the World Cup you know working on down to Belgium who was so nearly at the World Cup and who knows you know with with what's going on with Georgia maybe they'll get a last minute reprieve but fifth again I was keeping half an hour on their results I didn't see them really do anything that I was unexpected when when you consider why I saw them nearly topple Samoa in in November yeah um

39:42just flattered to deceive a little bit Belgium your little one grew three inches overnight adorable also expensive sell their pint-sized pieces on Deepop and list them in minutes with no selling fees because somewhere a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kid will outgrow tomorrow and he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now consider your future growth bird budget secured start selling on Deepop where taste recognizes taste payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply see website for details during lows pro savings days save more on what goes into the job add power to your lineup with a free to walk 20 volt max five amp hour battery when you buy a select to walk 20 volt max tool plus get up to 35 percent off select major appliances for world pooled maytag and more get the job done right keep more in your pocket that's pro savings days our best lineup is here it lows valid for three twenty seven selection

40:44various allocation supplies last uh they they they they they've also got new players coming in they've also missing uh uh is it mathew remu the player who led the players to lose mate he was there for a well cut qualifier and he he could have basically played by himself loads amazing he was unreal like and but he they did not have him for any of this tournament they had his brother Florian who done really well as well don't don't get me wrong but he's he is a superstar for Belgium rugby like he's a different but they're also Belgium are very much like Romania they can they build into a tournament they started a bit poorly and they got they didn't start great in the qualifiers as well like they built into that but they love a red card they're real disciplined they're they play on the edge and like some of the some of the games they had as well they were playing they're in literally a quagmire the pitches were horrendous this tournament like one of them was like literally the

41:49rain was standing all over the pitch that and uh all they had to do was literally just driving malt that's all they could do because the weather was so bad so they had the weather on their side they were able to play that they played it well but when they switched it on and they got remu available like they are they are a very exciting side and they they've got big plans as well like for a lot of people that I speak to they've they've got big plans and they've sort of incorporating it into the French leagues a lot so they've got players that are sort of mixed between the two and clubs that are obviously picking up their players and yeah it's it's exciting time for Belgium I think it would have been better if they got to the World Cup I think that would have been an amazing element for them just to really drive on with but they got they got fifth and they they sort of kept their spot where they are in rugby Europe but they've got to keep one eye looking over the shoulder because if they let it slip they could end up like other teams around them well speaking of which Netherlands another team where a lot of people were excited a couple of

42:52years ago about where Dutch rugby might or might not be going again they're not amazing results I think what do they finish seventh in the end seven so they they've really put one on on spain in the first one they were literally just playing fast expensive rugby but there is more of a back story so obviously they've got a new they've got the new gaffer and charge Brian Eason who's come in and tried to build an identity so they've he's come in and the focus is World Cup 2031 okay so a lot of the old guard retired so there's a lot of players retired they've got an average age of 22 throughout the story wow wow so they've got an average age of 22 they've got players that they had 18 new captain players for this tournament alone new new captain obviously meets vote votes as well really top really nice lads really great group their lads as well they've got a great group of coaches there they've got a real big vision

43:55and a big plan of what's going ahead and it was so exciting to be around them when I speak to them I'll speak to Brian a few times and when I'll speak into the lads at the tournament I was like they were like it's it's a bigger bigger plan and and the federation have bought into it there's a bigger vision and there was elements and glimpses of what they could become and then they managed to put it all on Germany obviously Germany getting beaten 76-7 they were Germany were losing 69 nil with about three minutes to go Germany got to try it was the biggest cheer of the day and then vksmio just obviously was over at card if met at the minute just ghosted phones called never trial like they've got they've got some serious talent in the future and it's not it's not a now project it's a it's a future project so the results did not flatter what they've got going on there okay okay and then moving on down I don't have tons to say on Switzerland I'm more kind of skipping on to Germany Germany now relegated to the trophy I think it's cool yeah yeah

44:58down to the trophy so they are obviously in full rebuild there well you say they're on they're in rebuild sorry since you're on mate is that is that not it for German for German rugby is that not no so the the the gaffer's left that was his last gaming charge after the Netherlands there's a few players that said they're retiring there was a lot of new players blooded in within that squad as well there's a lot of recruitment going on rugby in Germany on instagram and x and stuff like that I speak to him quite often so he's kind of become a bit of a scout so they're looking at new players across Europe there was a lot of players that come in from England and there's a well-scaling exactly that so they're calling players in there's a couple of players that are scouting within Spain that have got like German heritage etc so there is a vision so the trophy the trophy's not the end for Germany it's just they've got to make sure they don't cascade down because the teams in the trophy they ain't messing about at a minute obviously we've got

45:59checher at the top Poland given chase Sweden in full strength and it's there it's not that's not based it's as opposed to a two-year cycle for motion but relegations each year so if you slip out of it like you could not if you don't hit the ground running they run the risk you're getting dropped out of that and into the conference below so they've got to really hit the ground running but again it's down to money they haven't got the money again there's no financial clout within trying to get into training camps they weren't able to get any friendly because well they did have friendly but it wasn't against like actual international teams it was against other clubs and there's no travel budget and then you can't try to camps and a lot later having to fly in on a Thursday for a training camp because obviously they got their job they can't get away from their job because they can't get paid for this and yeah until the financial element is resolved that will kind of just stay as is within Germany.

46:59Wow okay so I guess last question then mate we've rattled through this um what does what does the future hold for rugby Europe with Georgia you know that's pressing you could the button say that Georgia are out of it does that does that hurt rugby Europe or does that in a funny way make it 10 times more exciting. Well so there is discussions of that potentially they want to drop it down to six nations again anyway so they want to try and reduce it from the eight to the six um I think this tournament probably made that conversation a little bit harder some people say they weren't as impressed by the tournament I think it was more impressive than last year because teams were able to anyone could be anyone in this tournament I think it strengthened the resolve of rugby Europe but Switzerland were probably the team of the tournament in my opinion from where they were at the start of last tournament to where they become now they've they've strengthens gathered sort of got new players in from different regions

48:02with a player base of less than five thousand within Switzerland start they've got an exceptional player pool and what they've managed to recruit and who they've managed to bring in the players like Jules Portia that's doing who's playing at 10 that literally pulling the strings they they could have fell apart Cyril Lin was their main guy last year brought him in they either retired and they've managed to fill the gap very well and I I think if Georgic drop which I think is potentially going to happen I think well rugby will make an example of this to hide up what's potentially going on in South Africa um oh disclaimer I hope most of this I don't have anything to stop watching right now um but obviously even then there's proven facts about the reduced juice juice testing across rugby so there's I think there's a bigger issue that rugby's got a result there and I think this is potentially they're going to be used as a scapegoat as well this probably a big rug and a sweep up moment but hopefully it's not um but I think that will play

49:04into the six teams either with the new nations cup model as well that as well rugby's big sticky plaster the rugby Europe super cup is also funded by world rugby so until that becomes a success it's an endless part of money potentially that's until rugby gets out the same way as well we've got fine away commercialising the game to showcase this sort of hidden gems and there's so many opportunities but rugby Europe we'll only get stronger with or without Georgia like they just need to make sure that that doesn't fall back on them like that that it wasn't anything to do with their involvement if that comes in that's a whole different kettle of fish again. Rugby Europe have signed agreements with France as well so for the next three years to help strengthen their governance and their collaboration with French clubs and the French system as well so that can only improve 48 49 nations now, Djibouta obviously been added Greece have been added

50:07there's just such a buzz within rugby Europe and that pinnacle as well with the championships whether it's six or eight teams I really enjoyed the finals day model now I think if we were able to do that in each country so the games of that weekend's all played so first weekend's all in Amsterdam next one's in Belgium next one's in down in Romania just to showcase these places that we like get everyone there create a party atmosphere like a like a sevens weekend do it over a weekend you've got two games in the Saturday two games on the Sunday we're going to go to Bucharest right we're going to go and do via the lit we're going to go and do Lisbon we're going to go and do this that I think that's potentially the next I know it will sort of reduce revenue for certain nations but playing one game here two games there like it doesn't it's harder for teams to get to I think if we used it as a different model I think it might be able to make it easier for

51:09teams and players and fans to get to a whole weekend of rugby Europe yeah well that's fantastic mate so thank you so much for educating us I feel educated and I'm sure everybody who's listening does just finish up by telling us where we can find your content what have you got coming up yeah so rugby TTL on Instagram YouTube we're predominantly going to be trying to target onto YouTube and stuff we've got some plans for some livestream stuff coming up for next season to hopefully showcase more rugby Europe we've got podcast interviews we've got Josh Naveed he's lined up to come on we've got Maricol Corobetti Nicolai Matawalu we've got a few few bigger names coming on in the in the coming week so and then just the rest of it we've been running about the six nations which is probably the best six nations I've seen in decades we've been running about that how shit we are at fantasy so if you want a bit of banner that talks about rugby Europe

52:10six nations grassroots rugby is obviously up on our big list Spanish rugby is obviously on my big list so yeah rugby TTL we're on pretty much every platform YouTube obviously Instagram's where most of it is but yeah just come come say hello and tell me I'm wrong it's no worries they usually get that as well yeah absolutely tell tell me I'm wrong as well just comment just comment anything I don't mind anyway if you've gotten all the way to the end you might consider helping the channel a little bit more by getting membership people watching on YouTube you can see the join button down below if you click that you'll get access to weekly bonus videos you not only be helping out me a little bit more financially but you'll get all that extra content and I'll tell you secret some of those videos are my favorites and make because it's just me and you and get to have a bit of fun so that just leads me to say thank you so much to Karl Dawson for joining me for this fascinating earth shifting review of rugby Europe with bombshell after bombshell yeah yeah I'll cite the few for you mate and thank you terribly for watching enjoy

53:12your rugby and I hope that everybody's team wins cheers you saw the game winning play once but have to replay it three times on the way back to the hotel because some moments don't end at the buzzer life's a trip make the most of it at best western book direct and save at bestwestern.com feel the rush live thoroughbred racing is happening now at laurel park the players track every friday through sunday the gates open at 11 a.m. and the action starts at noon free admission fast-paced racing and real wadering excitement from start to finish pick your horses place your bets chase the win from live racing and simulcast action to great food special events and nonstop sports viewing laurel park is where the action lives come win play visit laurel park dot com recently our company softball team lost the big game by one run then dail tried to console us with the quote winning isn't everything dail's a loser I played a win like early payout from bet 365

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