Depression Can Be So Funny, With John Moe

0:00If you run a business or handle customer operations across support, sales are marketing. You can start with a demo at 11 that's spelled out 11labs.io slash achiever. Go to granola.ai slash achiever and get your time back and feel organized and clear after the meeting. Go to im8health.com slash achiever right now or click on the link in the description and use code achiever for a free welcome kit. Use code achiever at monarch dot com to get your first year of monarch core half off at just $50.00 head over to shopify dot com slash anxious achiever and start your free trial today. Visit upwork dot com right now and post your job for free. That's up work dot com and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. The anxious achiever your favorite show is available on cast box at cast box dot fm. Cast box is the best free podcast app.

1:00Check out cast box dot fm. Are you ready to take your businesses marketing to the next level? Meet brevo the all in one marketing and CRM platform built to help you connect with customers, boost engagement and grow your business smarter. With brevo you can manage all your customer interactions in one place. Nurture leads with their built in CRM. Reach your audience through email and SMS and keep them coming back with powerful automations. But here's where it gets really exciting. Meet aura brevo's AI assistant aura helps you craft smarter campaigns by suggesting personalized content optimizing send times and even analyzing performance data to help you improve your strategy in real time. It's like having a marketing expert on your team 24 seven and of course brevo offers advanced analytics seamless integrations and AI driven personalization, which is everything you need to create multi channel campaigns that hit the mark every time get started for free today

2:03or use code achiever 50 to save 50% on starter and standard plans for the first three months of an annual subscription. Head to brevo.com slash achiever B-R-E-V-O dot com slash achiever to take your marketing further with brevo and aura that's B-R-E-V-O dot com slash achiever. Hi, I'm more errands millie host of the anxious achiever. Today I'm going to bring you one of our most downloaded and one of my most favorite episodes from our archives. It's a classic. The anxious achiever has been added for a long time. We have over 300 episodes and honestly they're all still more relevant than ever. You may hear details in this episode that reminds you it's from another time but I guarantee that the advice you get will be as crisp and meaningful and the stories as resonant

3:04as before. If you have a favorite episode of the show, let me know. I'd love to air it again or even we record it for you fresh. Enjoy this classic anxious achiever episode. Today we're going to talk about depression, not anxiety. But, as my guest John Moe says, depression and anxiety well they're like hauling oats. You rarely see one without the other and neither manage to have a successful solo career. Sorry for the 80s pop music reference. The 80s are very in now though, at least according to my kids. Depression can have really distinct characteristics from anxiety and can have a much different effect on our work lives. For me, depression is very demotivating and my work tends to suffer. Whereas when I'm anxious I'm a wreck but I'm also often sort of hyper functional. But depression and anxiety definitely share at least two characteristics that we'll talk about today.

4:04Both of which can really mess with your head and your career. Magical thinking and unreliable narrators. You know them. John Moe calls magical thinking the if only's. If only I could achieve X, have Y, do this, then I'd be happy. And then there are the tapes of negative self talk that can run on repeat in your head. I'm a failure and I don't deserve anything. And we'll talk about managing disruptive and uncomfortable change when you struggle with these kinds of mental health issues. Because John Moe hosted one of the most popular and well-loved public radio podcasts, the hilarious world of depression. He wrote a book called that too. Moe has had a long and storied career in public radio and yet even with his reach and his fame and his celebrity guests and a growing community of people worldwide who care about mental health and talk about it. His show was canceled and he was laid off. So we'll hear about how he approached that change and others with humor and openness.

5:08First of all, you're the only other person I've ever interviewed who has a podcast on mental health and who seems to sort of love to dwell in the ridiculousness and gallows humor of it all. And I've admired you for a really long time. And so it's just really good to talk to you. Well, thank you. Yeah, that's always been the language I spoke. So I just trans-outed it to the show as well. Did people give you an attitude when you decided to make this very serious topic funny and poke fun at it? I got a lot of skepticism from people especially when the name came out of the hilarious world of depression, which was originally an exercise in thinking of the worst possible name for a podcast that I could to test my boss to see if he really wanted to go through

6:09with making a pilot of this thing. But yeah, I got some pushback right away from people saying the obvious retort, like the logical retort is there's nothing funny about depression. And so it was the idea of the show, the idea later of the book and the idea of kind of this whole proposition I'm setting forward is meant to be audacious. It's meant to be kind of brazen. But to me, the humor is just a different way of understanding something. It's a way of seeing the same thing from a new angle and a new perspective. And that's what I've always done. So that made a lot of sense to me. Well, so I'm an anxiety person. I definitely have had bouts of clinical depression and it visits, but anxiety is my traveling companion, which I want to hear about your relationship with anxiety.

7:09It's not something you talk about, do you have? Are you lucky enough that you have both clinical depression and clinical anxiety disorders or is anxiety not really your thing? I often say that they're the hollownotes of mental illness because you can rarely find one without the other and they don't have very famous solo careers. Yeah, I've had anxiety, different levels of anxiety that have proven to be obstacles, but not really rising to the level of disorder. But yeah, it's absolutely there. One of the guests I had on said that depression is your fear of the past and anxiety is your fear of the future. And then you just have to try to shorten those and get into the moment as much as you possibly can. I was also reflecting because this is a business show. And anxiety is kind of great sometimes when you're an overachiever because although it

8:11may shorten your lifespan and ruin your cortisol and your relationships, it's really aside from that, it can make you hyper effective at work. I always say that my hypervigilance is really the key to my success because I'm just constantly like making sure everything is happening all the time. But depression is different. Depression is kind of like a damage when it comes to the drive. Can you talk about that? Well, I mean, I think if you're vigilant and you're, you credit your success to that, then I think you're not really hypervigilant. I don't think you have a problem at that point. I mean, I know people with anxiety issues who can't leave the house and who can't, who find every day to be unbearable and they are racked with mortal fear in all times. And that's, you know, that's a distinction. Like I find myself talking about the disorder part of it a lot because if things are working

9:15and you're functioning, then maybe you're okay. It's like during COVID, people are saying, well, I'm depressed about what's happening with COVID. And they said, well, really, what are you feeling? Well, I'm just down a lot. I'm really, I'm really scared. I'm really, you know, worrying something might happen. And I will say, well, those, of course you are because that's the proper healthy response. You're actually healthy. You're going through terrible times, but you're, you know, you're not deciding to, you know, move out to the ocean. And you're not, I mean, there's a lot of things you're not doing that would indicate a disorder. In terms of, of depression in the workplace, I found that a creative place to work and a creative job to have is, is really a benefit because, I mean, honestly, there's somebody asking you the other day, well, what if you had never had depression? What do you think it would be like now? And I said, well, I'm sure things would be easier, but I don't think, I think I'd be very

10:19reluctant to give up the wisdom that I've earned from it. And the ability to see things from multiple points of view, to be able to see things, to see the trouble in things, to see the, the warning signs that I think a lot of people miss. And so I feel wiser for having gone through it. I mean, my depression is mostly a, a dysthynic depression, which is sort of a, a low grade rumble that continues all the time. And I've mostly been able to, to keep it under control. I found good therapy. I found good meds. I learned a lot. I got very curious and, and very myself in research. So, you know, I want to caution that I'm doing fine. But, you know, some people who can't predict how they're going to wake up the next day is going to, that's going to be really complicated. If you have a nine o'clock meeting and you can't get out of the house because of depression,

11:19because of anxiety, I didn't, I didn't see the movie Joker because I thought it would just make me sad. But I'm told there's a line that Joaquin Phoenix says in, in that movie, which is the worst part about having a mental illness is everybody wanting you to pretend that you don't. You know, so, so you just have to go through, go through the day like they do, but you just have to kind of put on an act. I don't really think of my depression as a disability. I see it as a, a, a thing in my life that I need to manage, no different than someone with diabetes needs to keep an eye on their insulin. You say that, but in your writing, in your book, and, and I think this is a very common experience for people who, who have sort of that this thymic chronic depression is that you always feel like you're a failure, a loser, you're about to get kicked out of whatever good thing ever happens to you.

12:21So you say that it, it makes you who you are, but how can you be a success when you always feel like a failure inside? Well, if you're looking to external factors to, to validate who you are as a person, you're going to come up short. You know, if you're always looking for the promotion, the achievement, the new job, the new car, the, you know, more money, whatever it is, more higher salary, there's so many, I, I could fill several books with stories on people who've, who've been led astray by that. And, and you talk about that if only are the sort of like, when I have X, Y, and Z, it's like this magical thinking of depression, you know, that like when I get that promotion, I won't feel this way anymore. Money. It's not just about dollars and cents. It's about our history, our family, our story, what we want and what we fear.

13:21Money is in our society a lot, which is why it's important to know your money story, but also to literally look at what you've got, what you need and where you're going. I just hit a big saving goal and it felt really good, especially as I'm about to turn 50. And Monarch helped me identify it. You know, most apps only tell you what you've already spent, but Monarch helps set goals, map out big purchases and see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust. It's a partner in getting where you want to get with your money. You can ask Monarch's AI assistant anything about your finances, like how much did I spend on that back to school shopping spree and you can spot things you wouldn't think to look for with their AI insights. Really, really important because it helps you work with your money in real time, not just looking back like a lot of budgeting tools. So write your own money story with Monarch.

14:23Use code achiever at monarch.com and get your first year of Monarch core at half off just 50 bucks. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code achiever. I just had a big birthday and you know, it's that time of life where you're thinking about what's next? Do I have another business in me? Do I want to pursue creative ideas? If that's you right now, Shopify has templates and AI tools that will get you a stunning site up and running fast. No coding needed, right? And Shopify's checkout. We've all used it. It's great. It means more customers actually buy and returning ones can do it in a single click. And because Shopify handles your setup and checkout, you will have more time to focus on growing your business and the tools to do it. Think about it. What would that business be? So if you're ready to hear the of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.com slash anxious achiever and start your free trial today.

15:25That's right. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash anxious achiever. That's Shopify.com slash anxious achiever. We live in an age where it's important to have general understanding of your business, but special skills are more important than ever. And the most successful business owners don't do it all themselves. They delegate. Upwork lets you build a team of highly skilled specialists for every function your business needs so you can focus on what you do best and let experts handle the rest. I've used Upwork for years and I have met some really highly skilled specialists who I work with again and again. Upwork gives your business fast access to highly skilled specialists with deep expertise, right? They can fill critical skill gaps and with business plus you can access the top 1% of talent on Upwork. AI powered shortlisting delivers a curated shortlist of top freelancers matched to your goals in under six hours. It takes away endless searching.

16:27So visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow upwork.com. Right. And so, you know, I think I think a big part of it though is spotting that as the distortion that it is and saying, OK, this isn't, you know, here's what I'm feeling. And because I am who I am, I have to stop. I have to examine this. I have to see if this adds up with logic. And then I have to address that going forward. It's much more conscious process than somebody without depression. And so it's it's checking back in and saying, OK, performance and achievement doesn't really match, you know, the path to happiness. But becoming who I am as a person and saying, OK, I do have intrinsic value. I do deserve love and kindness and healthcare and everything else that that a human is entitled to. Then then that's where you dig your way out of it, not by trying to achieve yet more. And even since the book came out, I have a couple of friends who are athletes, professional athletes.

17:37I was talking to Sean Doe little who's a picture for the Washington Nationals. And, you know, he thought, well, if I could just make an all star team, then, then clearly I'm a value as a person. And then that came and went. And he's like, maybe it's two all star teams. And then he got a second all star appearance. He's like, I better need to win the World Series. And then last fall, he won the World Series. And it, you know, he's like, at that point, I just said, this is wrong. This is what this isn't what's doing it because he was he was caught in that cycle. And it's, I mean, it's so common. And somebody like that should be. Should be held up as an example to everybody like, look, stop trying to achieve your way out of this. Here's Sean. Here's what he looked. Right. I mean, you say that. You say it can come for anyone. The thing about depression, it doesn't care about your career or your big bank account. It just wants to, you say it just wants to kill you. And, and I think that that it's really important. I mean, God, if you win the World Series and you still have that pit inside you.

18:44Yeah. But, but I want to go back to the piece about the unreliable narrator, right? Because I think that a common thread among people who live with chronic depression and anxiety is that. They are constantly having a struggle with the unreliable narrator that is their mental illness, who's telling them either A, if you only win the World Series, you'll feel great or also you suck, you don't deserve this. What is your process for getting past your own unreliable narrator and trying to get to the logic and the reality? Well, for me, a few things have kind of led to some breakthroughs. And I caution whenever I talk about this stuff that my process will be different than everybody else's process as theirs will be from each other. It's an individual journey. I'd make a terrible cult leader. I don't want to describe to the one single philosophy that will lead you to redemption. That said, for me, it began with getting into good therapy with a therapist I really clicked with. And then getting an inventory of what those common distortions are. Like you say, magical thinking, black and white thinking, catastrophizing, fortune telling all these things.

19:57Spotting when I was doing that and learning how to put on the brakes, I couldn't have done that by myself, just like I couldn't perform a kidney transplant on myself. It took someone standing outside to help me see that. And so that that was a big breakthrough and also kind of there's the phrase depression lies is probably familiar to a lot of people. It does lie. And it's your own brain. I get it. Depression isn't an actual ghost. But there. I think a lot of people don't give credit for how clever the lies are and how good depression is aligned because it's probably been with you longer than anything else. It's in a way you're most intimate relationship. I always say that about. Yeah. Yeah. And it knows you so well. It can masquerade his own thoughts. Right. And so it can. It does a dead on impression of you when it's when it's telling you you suck or you need to achieve this. Or if you could do this, then, then everything else will go okay, whatever it is that you're, that you're going through.

21:02And so, so kind of giving it credit a big part of cognitive behavioral therapy, which has been really successful for a lot of people. I know. With depression, some it hasn't worked for, but a lot of them it has is knowing where those distortions are coming from and knowing why you do that kind of thing like it's not enough to just say, Oh, you know, I in an uncertain situation. I always assume that I'm going to have the dumbest solution. You know, or that whatever it is like, okay, let's let's unpack some of this stuff from your past to figure out where that is coming from. And then once you have the thought, it's not a matter of saying, Oh, that's a lie. Get rid of that. Throw up the wall. That's not going to work. It's it's a matter of saying, Okay, here's what I'm feeling. Here's what I'm going to sit with. Here's what I'm going to Almost honor it to certain extent, even though it can be destructive. Like here's what this is, you know, take some breaths, fully feel it, understand where it's coming from, understand that it's a distortion.

22:10And then invite the traveler to be on its way down the road. You know, so it's so it's not a matter of like you're never going to feel those things again. And because they're lies and you're going to shut them out, it's just like you're going to you're going to hear them. But then you just have to manage them. It sounds like, you know, that you've sort of successfully built distance from the thing, right, and that you've almost made it into it. Is it a character? Does it have a face? Your depression? I've I've experimented with that. I usually just think of it as as a A force more than an anthropomorphized thing that's like I debated like do I capitalize depression in this book to I capitalize the D, but I I kept it lower case. I mean, what it is ultimately is figuring out what is you if the depression wasn't there. And that's when And believing in that person as a person of value, you let go of the idea that you're that you're trash or that you're always going to be miserable or that you're you're dumb and you learn to say, well, OK, I'm

23:23I'm worthwhile, you know, I'm a human with all the the rights that that entails and you know feeling feeling better about yourself. From that perspective, let's you see that kind of in relief compared to the the muck all around your brain that depression is causing. So so once that I mean, it really does sound like I'm I'm some progroc lyrics here, but like Once you can make that person glow a little bit more, you see all the tarnish all over and you say, OK, that's the that's the stuff that I don't have to live with. I love that, you know, it's like when you get your kids to like excavate your own like dinosaur egg, did you do that? They have to chip away at this clay and then all of a sudden like, oh my god, it's a dinosaur femur. I want to I want to talk a little bit about

24:25It seems like you're sort of an interesting inflection point like many of us, you know, you were you were You were laid off, right? Is that the right term? That is the right term. That's the term they told me I was laid off in June with about 25 of my colleagues due to economic reasons at the public radio company I was working at. And what did old cliny D or like the sort of in the struggle to build the inherent value apart from the achievement and the security Do in that situation. Well, I was sort of prepared for it because I knew that the company was I was working for was saying that they were in a financial crisis. And so the way I approached it weeks before it happened months before it happened was to say, OK, well, that could happen. That happens to people in a lot of jobs and

25:26In media jobs more often than most so that's possibility and I was I had been worried about it. So I said, let's do some preparation for it. I started, you know, looking into some other Similar places and you know people doing similar kind of work. I started to gather a lot of information. So I had some things in motion already and I was also Feeling about ready to leave anyway, but the big thing and I've had shows canceled before I haven't been laid off before But I've had big projects. I've been very dedicated to end and Because I tend to make things that a small group of people love passionately, but not something that a huge group of people just sort of likes me too. Such as my lot such as our lot. So when it came, you know, it was it was a blow, but I also instantly said This isn't me. I wasn't that show and that's a mistake. I've made another project I've worked on because I thought well if I just

26:32Am so dedicated to it, then it'll be strong if I just take all that is in me and give it to this show Then the show will be strong and of course in that process I would always become miserable because I feel like I should always be working more I should always be putting more of my heart into it and and you know, it's it's a bit of a It's a bit of a swindle that I think a capitalist economy eventually inevitably gives people like you know take take everything you have and put it into this Right and it's funny, you know, I just when you were saying that I was thinking that people people with with with anxiety and depression who sort of Gravitate towards getting enmeshed or being codependent are really good at that right like giving everything are all and Subsuming literally ourselves and then the blow is very we get rewarded for it for a while if it's good or if it's a hit Yeah, then when it ends Who are we? Yeah, I mean I always took note of

27:36Who I knew who was really great to me when my projects were not going well and Then I took note of people who suddenly wanted to hang out with me when they were going well I'm like okay, I've got a ledger that I'm gonna write this down in but I really like I had therapy a couple days after I got laid off and And my therapist said well, how are you doing with that news? And I said you know, I'm waiting to be devastated But I haven't been devastated yet. I was gonna ask because like I have a I have a feeling that you may have been preparing for The bottom to fall out at other times because that's what depression does right like yeah When it sort of did end were you better prepared because of your history do you think? Well, I think I was approaching the job differently my my career didn't depend on working at that place and especially in In media jobs writing books and speaking and doing a podcast

28:37You could do that a lot of places and you could also do it on your own You could and I know plenty of people who have Very successful careers basically doing it out of their own house and so I'm like okay Well, that's always an option. I could always hire myself But for me the bigger issue is is deciding at a certain point like I started this podcast Because I wanted to have a show because I worked at a company that made shows so I wanted to come up with a show and Mental health seemed like a good topic in the space of the four years. I did I did the show at that place It became more I'm gonna talk about mental health and I'm gonna talk about bringing these conversations out into the open and A podcast is part of that and where I do it is part of that But it's not the whole thing like I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about these issues as long as I have air in my lungs And if it's there fine if it's somewhere else fine and so I think that's that's sort of the

29:38Like the indirect object changed in the sentence, but that's about it So I felt I felt kind of okay Gosh, that's so freeing. I love that. It was great Money it's not just about dollars and cents. It's about our history our family our story What we want and what we fear Money is in our society a lot, which is why it's important to know your money story But also to literally look at what you've got what you need and where you're going I just hit a big savings goal and it felt really good Especially as I'm about to turn 50 and monarch helped me identify it You know most apps only tell you what you've already spent but monarch helps set goals map out big purchases And see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust It's a partner in getting where you want to get with your money You can ask monarchs AI assistant anything about your finances like how much did I spend on that back to school shopping

30:46Spree and you can spot things you wouldn't think to look for with their AI insights Really really important because it helps you work with your money in real time Not just looking back like a lot of budgeting tools So write your own money story with monarch use code achiever at monarch dot com and get your first year of monarch core at half off Just 50 bucks. That's 50% off your first year at monarch dot com with code achiever I just had a big birthday and you know It's that time of life where you're thinking about what's next? Do I have another business in me? Do I want to pursue creative ideas if that's you right now Shopify has templates and AI tools that will get you a stunning site up and running fast No coding needed right and Shopify's check out we've all used it It's great. It means more customers actually buy and returning ones can do it in a single click and because Shopify handles your setup and check out

31:46You will have more time to focus on growing your business and the tools to do it think about it What would that business be so if you're ready to hear the Your first sale today head over to Shopify dot com slash anxious achiever and start your free trial today That's right start your free trial at Shopify dot com slash anxious achiever. That's Shopify dot com slash anxious achiever We live in an age where it's important to have general understanding of your business But special skills are more important than ever and the most successful business owners don't do it all themselves They delegate up work. Let's you build a team of highly skilled specialists for every function your business needs So you can focus on what you do best and let experts handle the rest I've used upwork for years and I have met some really highly skilled specialists who I work with again and again Upwork gives your business fast access to highly skilled specialists with deep expertise, right?

32:48They can fill critical skill gaps and with business plus you can access the top 1% of talent on upwork AI powered shortlisting delivers a curated shortlist of top free lancers matched to your goals in under six hours It takes away endless searching so visit upwork dot com right now and post your job for free That's upwork dot com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow upwork dot com So another question I have which is you know now that you're sort of a famous professional sad person as you call yourself Your pro do you still? I was so good at being depressed that I went up to the major leagues Do you still have to perform Normalcy like like a feeling for me when I'm in a depression is that I can't talk to strangers. I can't have small talk I'm bad at small talk anyway, but like when I'm depressed I can't even pretend to care a smile and

33:49I think that's hard like when I go pick up my kids and I'm depressed and they're like There are other moms are like who is the mother who looks who's sitting in the car scowling at everyone But it's because I'm depressed I cannot but but but now like Do you have do you have the right to not perform being okay when you're not like? How has that changed for you like in interacting with with other people? Yeah, I'm just curious like if you reach a certain level of going pro as a depressed person like can you say I'm feeling really depressed today. I don't think I can do this meeting or how do you handle that? well I mean, it's sort of like everybody's already seen me naked It's all it's all out there already so I kind of can't go back I'm naturally kind of an introvert and like Yeah, the the small talk conversation I used to do a Stage variety show at the Fitzgerald theater in St. Paul 1000 C. auditorium every show was sold out and

34:52Then we we wanted to keep it really Human and connected to the audience so I would go out and say hi to the audience in the lobby afterwards That was the part I dreaded most it was like being on stage in front of a thousand people Telling a joke singing a song whatever it was that was fine like my heart rate was low But getting out in front of those people and so I think lately I've just found a lower gear that I'm more comfortable in and and I'm not compelled to Impress people I'm not compelled to To entertain people, you know, I still like jokes. It's a way of it's a way of talking for me. So I still make the jokes but in general like since Since really writing down all that I've been through you know with my experiences with my health with my family and Just knowing that and accepting and finding the self-value Through it all I'm just a lot more relaxed and frankly too like since I

35:53Got laid off Since I left the place I was working My wife says oh you seem happier you seem You smile more your your calmer and you're better looking and so you know If your spouse says you're better looking then obviously the right thing has happened What's your advice for someone who's Doesn't have the The beauty of being a professional sad person and and sort of is starting out in their career and might be feeling depressed But but has to show up at that meeting has to go to that You know networking happy hour with their boss. Do you have any tips about just getting through it? Boy, I thought you're gonna say what's your advice for people who aren't as good looking as you I'd love to hear that too, you know, I just I don't know I mean in that situation I Think it's never a bad idea to return to who you are

36:55in In a quiet way, you know like if you're going out there Trying to impress trying to dazzle in order to cover up something that is missing in in yourself I think you're really setting yourself up to to fall on your face I think sometimes in some meetings and in some situations and any job you do need to dazzle like if you need to sell people on an idea You know prepare to perform right but if it's coming from a place of trying to compensate for some other pain Then I think that's a problem because it's really not going to be you doing it But you know the big thing is really though if you're feeling rotten and it's getting in the way of things go get help Just go get help and it I know in In our healthcare system being what it is you're like oh, I'm gonna get some help I better call a psychiatrist so you work up the nerve and you call the psychiatrist and they say great

37:56We can see you in nine months and you're thinking but I'm crazy now Right away, I'm not gonna last that long and yeah, and so if you can't get into the psychiatrist or the therapist Go to a family doctor go to a general practitioner Who can at least help you in that moment and maybe set you on a course that you're gonna have to travel but to feel better because If you're if you're not functioning like you feel yada You can feel better and that and that's something that I it took me to like age 50 to realize that I'm 52 now Because it's another thing that depression gets so deep in it I got through two seasons of making my show before I really allowed myself to believe that Because I just thought well, I'm not getting worse So that's as good as I can do which is a distortion and a lie depression was telling me so convincingly that I By then a somewhat of an expert on depression couldn't even spot

38:59So I mean, it's a thing I evangelize now like you can feel better if you're if you're Roughed up you can feel better than than you are. It doesn't mean you're gonna be happy all the time You wouldn't want that anyway, but it just means you can be better than than where you're at When you when you did your show you interviewed professional dazzlers yeah, you talked to people whose whole livelihood was commanding attention and holding a room and being a star and Yet they were all depressed What did you learn about how they compartmentalize or how they manage their mental illness through through their work and through what they love to do? I think for a lot of them the work that they were doing was almost a way of talking to the depression and and communicating with it and trying to

40:00Not so much solve it with what they do, but the kind of work with what they had I'm I'm always very interested and I have A lot of friends in these jobs. I'm really interested in comedians and musicians and songwriters and I think what they do is they speak from a sincere and Kind of beautiful place even if it is about pain a kind of honest place That connects with people on some kind of level that you know a a textbook about Chronic major depressive disorder really wouldn't and so the people I talked to who are Dazzlers, you know who have the room in the palm of their hand They're doing that because they love it, you know, and it's it's from a really sincere place It's it's not really from a I'm looking for validation in this capacity because I think those people don't tend to Become very successful and you know, there's plenty of successful people who who do that and plenty of unsuccessful people who

41:02Who try the more honest and direct rude, but the ones who are trying to solve it through Performing and you know, I don't I don't need a therapist You know doing stand-up comedy is my therapy. I don't tend to see much of an improvement in the mental state of those people You know over over a long period of time the audience isn't a therapist or your spouse isn't a therapist You know the the guy at the gas station your friends aren't therapists. Yeah, like a therapist isn't Right and the guy at the gas station is probably not an endocrinologist People have different different things that they do and so so yeah people have people have managed it in different ways You know, I will say that the people I've talked to who've been through addiction and are in recovery Who are writers performers, you know songwriters Their work tends to get a lot clearer after they've after they've

42:04Sobred up and are on that path But for most people it's more of an accompaniment than a then a solution I think it's really powerful and and I want to actually encourage the audience even if you Have nothing to do with stand-up comedy in your regular life to go and listen to John show because For me as someone who just works in business. It's so empowering to hear people who are at the top of their game Who feel like I feel and yet are still at the top of their game Not always they have low points and and low points are real But I find you're so powerful because it's hard for me to get Corporate people to talk on the record about their mental illness, but creative people and artists somehow have permission And but I see so many parallels Yeah Because work is work and the love of work is is the same no matter what you do right and so it's really powerful The the people that you talk to

43:04Yeah, it's funny. I You know when I first started doing this I thought are you always hear about The depressed comedian the polyachy figure and are there are there more depressed comedians than there are depressed dentists and Pan Oswald actually told me no he thinks that there's About the same percentage by and large in in every profession. It's just that If your dentist was talking to you about suicidal ideation when they're doing their job You'd quickly find a new dentist But if a comedian's talking about as part of their job then it's it's kind of okay. It's just different context So uh, yeah, so I I wonder about that Well, John Moe. Thank you so much. Thanks more That's it for this week's show if you like the show follow us and tell your friends And please leave us a review It really helps the anxious achiever get found

44:06By people just waiting for our content. I'm your host more errands melee Lots more to come in the next episode