Creating an intentional life with Angela Ceberano

0:00Most of us grow up believing that if we work hard enough, plan carefully enough, and want something badly enough, we'll eventually get there. But life has a habit of ignoring the plan. You can build a successful career, tick all the boxes, and still find yourself facing challenges that can't be solved with effort alone. Things like infertility. Things like uncertainty. Today's guest knows that better than most. She's built a hugely successful business, worked with some of Australia's biggest celebrities and brands, survived 20 rounds of IVF over almost a decade. And in the process, she's completely changed the way she thinks about success, ambition, and what makes a good life. That's today on Money and Good Life.

1:00Hello, my name's Stephanie Coombs. I'm here with my co-host, The Money Man. Ryan, what's in Hello, Ryan? Hi, Steph Halew. Joined by Angela Sabrina. She is the founder, managing director of Flourish PR. Now, Angela has spent many years working behind the scenes with some of Australia's biggest musicians and brands and personalities. Before she launched her own agency, which has grown into one of Australia's leading independent PR firms. But alongside Angela's business, she's also been remarkably open about another journey. Nearly a decade of IVF, 20 rounds of treatment and the long road to become... And the long road towards becoming a mother. Angela, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you, man. Well, let's talk about your professional career first. How did you build your business? Yeah, so I started working first Sony Music when I was 18. In fact, I started at BMG Records and then we merged with Sony. But I started in the industry when I was 18 when I was working at uni. When I was starting at uni, sorry. And it was, you know, started off entry-level position making all the coffees very good at

2:05making a coffee, teas, whatever needed to be done. And then, you know, once I graduated my comms degree, I just started to move up, you know, the ranks a little bit and yeah, ended up being at Sony for 10 years. And I became the National Publicity Manager and I had my own roster of artists that I worked with, like anyone from the Foo Fighters to Justin Timberlake, to Avril Lavigne, to go as a vassion, like both an Australian roster and also international. It was the best training ground that one could ever have. If you're working with people of that colourball, they expect a lot. And so I'm very good at the detail. So after a decade of kind of working there, I then got engaged and I was like, I think I can, I think I should go out and try something on my own. I was only 28. And so when I started the agency, I was like, I've seen Fy, this doesn't work. I've still a plenty of time. I was still in the form. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And you know, I think when you're that young, your overheads are pretty low. You know, like it was to take the leap of faith. It was probably the right time to do that when I was young and you know, you could live

3:08off two minute noodles and my desire for the nice things and I were pretty low back then. So it was a very low risk. And so yeah, I just went for it. And the first person that I called was guise of fashion because I have been his publicist for 23 years now. So we worked together when I was at Sony and he was like, okay, so he was one of my first clients that came across. Lovely. And then from there, yeah, a lot of music tours, a lot of entertainment. And that's really how we started. But I've had flourish for the last 16 years. And I would say now like the music and entertainment and the art stuff is probably like 10% of what we do. And our majority of our clients are kind of like lifestyle business, a little bit of fashion, health, a lot in the health kind of industry. And technology clients doesn't really matter what kind of sector we kind of do it all. And if you're an agency in Australia, you kind of have to be able to survive. And so what's driven that progression or that change in the business? Was that conscious decision or clients who attracted? Definitely. A little bit of both I would say.

4:08I think working in the music industry and entertainment in Australia, we're such a small country. And so... So market for everything. Yeah, such a small market. And you know, when you're working in PR, you're pretty much speaking. If you're only working in one category, you're speaking to the same journalist and producers every single day. It's such a small... It's such a small... It's a small... It's a small... You can't afford to poison any of the potent. Totally. Totally. And also like, after doing that for so long, I got a little bit bored. I have to say, you know, I wanted to be challenged and I want to look outside the scope. And I just... I love what PR does for business. I think it's one of the most important things about a business is your PR and your brand and your marketing. And I wanted to do that with different categories that, you know, and I think once you start at 28, what you're interested in, you know, 16 years along the journey of having a business, you do tend to change and your interests do change as well. So, yeah, I think it just drove something in me to just... Yeah, look outside kind of the box that I was kind of living in.

5:11But taking everything that I learned, like I think, now we treat our corporate clients like celebrities because we work with celebrities still to this day. And they're like, whoa, that is a lot of creativity and a lot of detail. I don't think anyone's ever treated them like that. And I think that's our secret source and how we are different to other agencies. Yes. And some of those names you mentioned, like you said, would be very demanding, right? I mean, that's what happens when you're dealing with people with big names. They've got their own reputation to protect. And you... Don't discount how demanding people in corporate life can be as well. Oh, it's true. You can go to a same level. But if you make it to that sort of level, I'll tell you what. Like someone who has also worked in media for a long time, you get some... You get some big names, you get some big egos too. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Like CEOs and celebrities, same kind of personalities. Because I think to be that successful and that level of success, you've got to have that eye of the tiger. Yeah. So like if there's something in your way, a lot of them will be like, I'll find a way

6:11to remove that challenge. Well, there is a saying that CEOs, they need the most price. Yes. What's my time like this to... Oh, no, nothing. Yeah, that's pretty well. But you're doing a great job. Oh, that's pretty bad. Thank you. So you've said before, Angela, that success comes with a price tag attached and you've obviously had a lot of success in your career. What does that mean for you? I think, you know, after having a business for 16 years, there's so many things. To be able to survive in business, I think for 16 years, you make a lot of sacrifice. You know, you would know that, right? We're in a 16th year as well. Oh, yeah. That's amazing. Fantastic. And I think you just, like, there's a lot of things that you say no to, especially in those first five years, we're setting the business up. When I started, I was quite young. And so my husband was a musician. He was on the road a lot. So really, it was just me at home with my dog. You know, so I didn't have a lot of, you know, other responsibilities. So I could just throw myself into work and I absolutely work a whole like for sure, because I love it. But I think that comes to a point where for me, I got really sick of working kind of

7:16if, you know, 20-hour days, not getting much sleep, it does catch up with you eventually. And so I think I had a really good friend at the time. I was like, you're pushing yourself to the absolute limits at what cost. Like at what cost are you going to do this to your body? And I think probably everyone at business at some point has that kind of moment where it's like, something has to change. I can't. This is not sustainable. Like, yes, for the first five or whatever years that you can, you have to do it to, you know, reach a certain level of success. And then you can start delegating and, you know, finding better systems. But yeah, I think at some point, every business owner or a founder that I was spoken to has that. For me, it was ending up at Etworth Hospital and staying in there for two weeks as I had terrible pneumonia. Wow. And I got really sick. Yeah. And my surgeon was like, this is what I call the entrepreneurist disease. Really? Yeah. What, really? Yeah. And I was like, well, you're talking about pneumonia, how to cold, it went quite bad. And, you know, infection in the lungs or whatever. And they said, no, you're absolutely burnt out. And your immune system is so low.

8:18Had you have not come in when you did, like, we wouldn't be having this conversation tomorrow because all your organs were shutting down. You've had a high temperature for many days. Yeah. But I'm like, I'll be right. I'll be right, you know? Yeah, I'll push through. Yeah. And I think it was that, yeah, having two weeks where they took my laptop away from me and we're like, you're actually going to put your best, like, you know, bed rest. Yeah, you sort of have some conversations with yourself and decide that, yeah, this is probably not the life that I can continue working and, you know, living like this. Yeah. Did you have a moment like that when you were building Tribeca? No, I, you know, I think you, you have them flow and when you're focused on your health and when you don't. But I am reminded, my brother laws a brick layer in July and he runs his own business and he, he got pneumonia so much so they drained about three liters of fluid and needle three days back. Right. Yeah, so he got to that level, you know, young family maybe three kids at the time, young wife and the like my sister. Yeah, I see. Right. When you say entrepreneur in a different sense, but business owner, yeah. Bricklaying is hard on your body on a good day. Right. Have you seen these hands?

9:18Wait too hard. Wait too hard. So for you there, obviously, there was a turning point which was your health and that's quite a serious turning point. That's a wake up call if ever there was one. So, so how did you change how you were working? It was my, my husband was very helpful during this period, I would say. My husband has so many hobbies. Like, it's kind of funny when I look at his life and look at my, I'm like, wow, like is such an interesting life. He plays music, he can surf, he can play, he's like an amazing martial artist. He just does, he reads, he does all this stuff and I'm like, wow, when I work, you know, so he works really hard too, but we just, he, he's a would make time for his hobbies and he said to me, like, well, you don't have a hobby. I'm like, well, works kind of my hobby, you know, he's like, it's not. That's what stuff before people always say. He's like, it's not. It's not. And, you know, being a young woman in business and working in a fairly, like, a lot of the

10:20industries that I work in are quite male dominated and I think, you know, I'm from a certain generation where you just have to work really, really hard and constantly be looking like you're working, you know, and yeah, it's, it was an interesting time, but I think, and now seeing like the younger women come through in business, they don't have that mindset. Like, and it's a great thing, like, you know, they're very particular with their boundaries, like, you know, I can't make that meeting because I do that late meetings at Pilates at 530 and I'm like, okay, that's different from my generation, but I respect it now being on the other side of kind of, you know, knowing what's important. Probably wouldn't have thought about that little thought that way two years ago. And so, yeah, my husband was like, you need a hobby, like, and I was like, well, how many hobbies? Like, I don't have time for hobbies. And so he said, well, like, why don't you just think about, like, what did you love as a kid? Like, what did you love when you were a child? What was, like, what did you absolutely love? And so, for me, I had to think about it and I was like, a horse riding, like, I loved

11:21horse horses and going riding. I didn't come from like a super wealthy family. We did not have access. I didn't, you know, it was on my wish list to have a pony, like every 14-year-old girl. But that was never going to happen. And so any opportunity I could go on a trail ride when I was little. That's what I would do in school holidays and so I said, I love horse riding. So anyway, Phil, my husband organized his horse riding kind of day. It was also involved going to wineries at the same time, which is right. Ride your horse to the winery. Have a drink, get back on the horse. You're kidding me. It feels very much like a good life guy. Yeah. He's a good life guy. He's a good life guy. I would love to get drunk and ride a horse. I mean, that was true. That was not what I was saying. I'm not. That was not what I was saying. I'm hearing what I want to hear. But yeah, go the wineries yet. And just being, you know, back in nature on a horse, it was great. And I was like, oh, do you know what? For three hours of actually not thought about work, you know? And to get that space and just for your brain to rest. To be present, I imagine. To be present.

12:21And then suddenly I would have a solution when I go back to the office the next day, because my brains had time to actually switch off and rest. Yes. Very important. Yeah, learning the importance of that. So yeah, I just started getting little hobbies like that, you know? Horse riding, gardening, things that would just be, you know, help me be more mindful. Like the work didn't suffer, the business didn't suffer. No. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. I would. So no, I wouldn't. So I would�이 the big suffocating work and I would put a spot on. yeah. So I hate it when I factors I should follow my Sunday. I hate it when it comes to wanting to open up restaurant where there's system and API or thing where I should be thinking that here they kind of look at appropriate system orMUSIC in some tank octopus on whether they're important.

13:22And the dynamic systems usually work as well. And so, and I stopped doing that pretty soon because I realized how exhausting it was. But it's really an evolution, right? Because what got you in the first place in that mindset drove performance. And then it's not get rid of it. There's just new skills that you need to add on. On top of that and learn to trust people. And this is this evolution from, say, founder to CEO. From my point of view, if you stay in this founders mindset, then it's a lot more egotistical, a lot more about you and I have to be across everything. CEO is far more strategic less emotional, making better obviously strategic decisions for the business. Yes, absolutely. I totally, totally agree. And I think no one really teaches you that when you start a business when you're quite young. And so it's a process, I think, that you have to learn and trusting people and just hiring people that are smarter than you. It's trusting people, which is hard. Like again, I could trust people because when you're an employee, it's like, if I get it wrong, I'm not the one who's putting the bill. And it's interesting, and that's a big two-philosophical. Is it trusting people? Is it relearning to trust the decision you made and let them do?

14:24Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. That, yeah, you're like, well, I've decided to hire this person. I've got to actually let them trust the decision. Let them do it. And they'll make mistakes or whatever. It's then you just find a process to go, OK, well, that's fine. Totally cool to make a mistake. Let's just work out a way we're not going to do that in the future. And yeah, I think that was a big learning of just letting go. I mean, I'm a control freak. You know, for me, a PR person that's not. And it's almost in the job description. Absolutely. Because you're trying to control a message. You can't just like, yeah, that's the whole thing. I'm also not going to buy into that angel, because I married someone who was in people. So I'm going to stay well or wait. That's not too long. That's it. Rock the boat on that. Now, as well, separately, while you're trying to build this amazing business, which has turned 16, you're also at one point decided that you wanted to start a family. Yes. Which is another part of your life that has been a big ongoing battle.

15:26Is battle the right way? I mean, it's definitely a battle. I probably, I'd probably rebrand that and say challenge. And I love a challenge. I love that. That's cool. And then he's PR. Yeah, this is my flourished. So well. So did you always want to have children? Yes, I did. I did. So I got married when I was 24. And so my husband and I have been married 18 years now, together for 19. Yeah. And when the moment we got married, I was like, well, I want to have this whole romantic thing in my head. I was like, oh, just happen when it's meant to happen. Then you know, not not trying. We're not trying. And yeah, definitely wanted to have kids. And then, you know, work takes off and you're busy, busy, busy. And yeah, suddenly I was 29. And the business had been, yeah, kind of in it for about a year. And yeah, I was like starting to learn about how, you know, what you hit 30, it gets a little harder to have a baby. Not that I think 30 is old to have a baby at all, but they soon start calling you cherry-out trick.

16:27But I've got a lot of friends who are going through this at the moment. So I'm 37. I had to think about that. No. Yes, no, I am 37. I turned 38 this year after a certain point. Do you find this? You have to really think about what age you are? 100%. Yes, I did this the other day. Yeah, I like sometimes I have to count. But so a lot of my friends are now having children and going through the pregnancy journey and the fertility. Journey as well, which is difficult for many of them. But I think the hardest part for all of them is being called geriatric. Oh, yeah, geriatric. And it's like, it's like, I'm 37, I'm 38. I shouldn't feel that way. But in terms of body clock, yeah. Absolutely. So when I hit my 30th, I was like, OK, it hasn't happened naturally. And we should maybe investigate this and have a little look into what's going on. And my husband is a little bit older than me. And so I thought it was probably going to be him, you know, he's a cis-rock and roll. And, you know, I'm sure he just drinks way too much beer. And, you know, it's definitely going to the problems

17:27in the seat with him. Anyway, he got tested. Oh, no, he's as strong as a bull. And nothing wrong with his little swimmer. That's what he's telling us. Yeah, exactly. It's like, what's the mean? Yeah, he's very much. So the issue was with me over active immune systems. So I can get pregnant. But when I would get pregnant, it just wouldn't hang around for very long. So, yeah, there was a lot of false starts and loss along the way. But, yes, the issue was with me. I feel love hearing that. And so, yeah, we just investigated. And we decided to turn to IVF. And yeah, it was a really, really long process for us. IVF is a very emotional process. Yes. And it's not easy on the body. Absolutely not. Yeah, it's really... I just haven't spent about IVF for a while. It's, yeah, it really is very grueling, emotionally, physically. And hard on the men too. Like I would say, like Phil was my absolute rock.

18:29And we were also going through IVF during COVID. And so, we were very isolated. And so, he couldn't even come to appointments with me. And so that made it tricky as well. But, yeah, it's full on. I mean, I was the girl that would, you know, be petrified at getting my blood taken or blood tests or needles really freaked me out. And then you told, okay, you're starting injecting like three to four times a day, depending on what side you're on. Yeah. And so that was, that was hard at the start. But then by the end, I was like driving in, giving myself hormones, you know? Thank you. It just became for us. It was in our life for so long. It kind of became second nature. And so, yeah, I feel like I know a lot about IVF from having to go through it. But oh my gosh, some of the hardest years, I think, like I thought business, running a business was hard. Going through, yeah, infertility during a lockdown for, you know, with COVID and trying to keep the business afloat at the same time. That was probably like my hardest time that I've ever had to like deal with.

19:29At any point during that process, did you think about dropping any of those balls? Oh no, that's not really in my personal. Yeah. I mean, I probably should have. But I think like, you know, when you're people that, you know, you got employees and like, there's a lot of responsibility. And so for me, it was just like just, you know, the only way I could get through IVF was to, and whether this is the right way to go about it, probably many psychologists, if they're listening, or probably be like, that's a terrible strategy, don't do that. But for me to get through 20 rounds of IVF, like that is a lot, I just had to emotionally disconnect for myself. Yeah. Was it only where I could get through it? Because you're right, like it's such an emotional thing to go through. And I wasn't prepared for that at the start, it's not really teachers you about IVF. And we're going back like a decade now when I started that journey. No one was talking about IVF, which is why Phil and I really documented a lot of our journey of going through it. And that really divided people, that we had family members that would say,

20:31well, that was a bit much. Lee and I need to show us all that, or talk about it. Like, do you think there's a bit personal putting that stuff out there? And now it's really great to be able to see like, so many people are talking about, there's so many podcasts about fertility and IVF now. And I think that's a great thing. And I feel proud that we kind of started that change and talking about it because it was so to do. But now you've got women in their 20s that are freezing their eggs. And so like, I think the perception of it has started to change quite dramatically, which I'm proud that we kind of helped change that. We were one of the first kind of, we were a bit of a pin-up post-efficient IVF for a while there. And then when they shot IVF down during COVID, I think between my doctor and I, we must have done like 15 interviews in one day. And then 72 hours later, they turned it back on because of the lobbying that we did. So that was really, really cool. And I think like, yeah, I could use my PR skills to kind of help me, you know, personally, but at the same time, it helps so many other people. So that was really satisfying. But it was a very, very tough time.

21:32And I think, yeah, you don't prepare yourself for it. And also, I think people think, well, if I can't have a baby naturally, I don't just do IVF, they think IVF is a sure thing. Yes. And it's absolutely not a sure thing. Yeah. Well, I mean, 20 rounds of IVF is a lot, right? And I'm sure around 16 or 17, you must have had some sort of niggling voice being like, well, you know, at what point do I stop trying for this? Yeah. Did you ever have that thought? Yeah, I did. Yes. And it was starting to get kind of put on to me, I think, from like, you know, we had, we had a long journey like we were at one clinic, which was an awful experience, which ended up in a class action, actually, because they had a lot of embryos that were caught up in this testing, a faulty testing, basically genetic testing. And so, yes, some of the early embryos that we created, and it takes, if you on IVF, you understand how hard it is to create one or some embryo. It's a hard slog. And so when we were, we discovered that they had

22:35discarded embryos that weren't, that may have been viable, we'll never really know. We were, you know, just one of many couples and people that were involved in that and ended up in a pretty full-on class action. So once that sort of came out, that was, you know, kind of difficult to kind of process and, you know, trust, and it was a really vulnerable thing to go through, but it's also a huge industry. Like people are making billions of dollars in the fertility space. And at what point, you know, it's the company hours, that was a public listed company, and I don't think their agenda looks quite right. Well, we live near the intersection of Barkas and Victoria, and you often see trends go past each other that have mirrored brandy. You talk about being a big industry. I still have to look twice. Two different companies are on two different charms here obviously in Melbourne, phenomenal stuff. I mean, how do you know which clinic to go to then? I mean, I think it's a gut feeling.

23:35I think you ought to speak to a lot of people, and again, I didn't know this. Like I just kind of went, I went with, I don't know if I'm allowed to say who there were, but it's obvious how I'm talking about if you Google class action IVF. And so I went with the older standing kind of IVF clinic. They were pioneers in IVF. They started IVF. And I thought, oh, well, they'll know what they're doing. I'll go there. Lots of people have had great success. Obviously, they've been around for a long time, but my gut just didn't trust the people that were kind of my specialists. And I think it's a gut feel. And just the way that they would treat patients, I was like, Mara, can we probably do a little bit better than that? When a woman's getting skin on her ovaries, and you've had multiple miscarriages, which we had a lot of losses. I couldn't even tell you how many we had in the end. It was so many. To be scanning someone and go, oh, I think that's a little, that ovary looks a bit dead in size, not much going on in there. And I'm like, I want to change the language again. He African me. He wants to re-brake. Just the human. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:36Exactly. And so anyway, long story short, we found another clinic and it just felt like so right. They cared. They had empathy. They believed in taking vitamins and acupuncture and yoga. And it was just a more holistic approach. And when you went into the waiting room, it looked like a day's buy. I didn't feel like I was in a hospital clinic. So already as a woman going to an IVF clinic, you think you're broken in some sort of way. And you're not broken. It's just you just need a little bit of help. And so yeah, we found incredible, an incredible doctor and she was amazing with us. And yeah, and then it was on the kind of, I think I was on the 14th round and one of my doctors, Dr. Hayden Waterham, who ended up being my obstetrician in the end when I was successfully had a pregnancy on my 15th round. He said to me, he's like at some point, like, are you gonna keep going on this? And I said, yeah, I'm gonna keep going. My model is never ever ever give up.

25:38He's like, I don't know if that's the right model. And so that was starting to say things to me that got me thinking. And yeah, I was like, I'll try one more time. And it was on that final time that we eventually felt pregnant with our little baby boy, Jimmy. Oh, my goodness. What a story. Yeah, it was pretty wild. And then since then we've done a couple more rounds, which has got us up to 20 rounds because we would love us sibling, but we'll see what happens. But I think when you get terrible news after doing such a long cycle, you're just like, I'm never doing that again. And then something in you, like for me, it was always a two day recovery. I'd have two days of feeling sad and awful. And then I'd be like, nah, come on, back on. Let's just dust ourselves up and let's just get back on the train and keep going. And so yeah, just something in me just had to keep going. And you could do it. And what a happy ending. Really? Like what a good prize at the end of it. Yeah, absolutely. Ah, the best. How old is Jimmy now? He's three now. Yeah. Is it, and it was all worth it? Absolutely. Oh my gosh.

26:39Yes. Yeah, I say I even get like goosebumps just thinking about that. Yeah, absolutely. It's just being a mum is the best. What sort of kid is Jimmy? He's very creative. What? I'm so surprised by him. Like, he didn't really eat. He's already got lots of hobbies. Exactly. He didn't really have a chance to eat with his parents. He's a very creative, very strong little boy. Yeah. Very strong, Will. That's, I mean, it's a lovely story. And it's so good that it had a good ending for you. Yes. You've said before that IVF made you a better person. Yes. In what way? Did that feel that way? I think in every way it changed me. I think I'm a lot softer. I'm much more empathetic now. I think I just perspective. It gave me so much perspective on what is actually important. I think being such a ambitious career gal, I was probably, yeah, I would have a goal and I'd be like, nothing is going to get my way. And I think it just relaxed me a lot of going, actually, you're not in control. You like to think that you're in control.

27:41But we're not. Every day, we walk outside our homes and there's stuff that is way outside of our control. And fertility is a lot like that. You can try to do all the right things. But you're not actually in control of it. And so I think it just calmed me down. I'm just a much nicer person to be around. I think motherhood changes you. But IVF changed me. And I just met incredible people along the way and met so many doctors that are doing great things. I met some doctors that aren't doing great things too. But I met, yes, some incredible people. And it just opened my eyes up to a whole different world that I had no idea about. And I think going through that amount of like upset and trauma, it will leave the make or break a marriage for us that absolutely made us and brought us together stronger. And yeah, I just think I'm just a lot kinder across the board since having gone through that. And you said before that you think that the conversation around IVF is changing a bit. And I'm shocked that even 10 years ago, it was to be honest.

28:43And that people were telling you to not talk about it. I don't, where does that come from? That's really weird to me. Yeah, I mean, well, people never really spoke about miscarriage either. So even when we had our first miscarriage, my husband was like, we won't tell anyone. I was like, why won't we be telling anyone? This is the time where I need my friends and family around me. Because I think the status like one in four will go through that. It's very common. But I didn't, and he didn't know we didn't know how common that was because no one talks about it. No one spoke about it back then. And then you start opening up and people are like, oh, yeah. Yeah, we had a couple of miscarriages before we had our three kids. Or, you know, oh, yeah, IVF. Oh, yeah, we're doing all have done IVF. And like it just opened this conversation. I don't know. I think people just was very private. We don't talk about that. Just take somebody being brave first to start the conversation. And as you go, there are angelic, everything that follows from it.

29:45Yeah. So I'm looking to take the lead step. Yeah. And I mean, there's so much to be said about being the person who's brave and after we actually have the conversation. And you think now you can see it having been right in the middle of it that the conversation has changed now. Absolutely. Yeah. And like you've seen TV shows about, you know, people documenting their process and going through, you know, IVF and podcasts coming out. And I think that's great. I think that's great. It's interesting that you're talking about those trams. And they've got huge billboards going on these trams. Well, the stats show like so many more people need help with fertility because people are having babies older and waiting longer. And there's so many other environmental things as why people need help with fertility. But yeah, I'm glad people are having the conversation because more people need that help. Yeah. And I can think of quite a few people in my own circle who are talking about freezing their eggs and who've done it. And, you know, Britt Hockley from Life on Cut, who's a great human. She's lovely. She documented her process of getting her eggs frozen onto her many thousands of followers,

30:45including her being, you know, high off a head on the pancill that they gave her. And I was like, that is actually, it's pretty brave to do that and to have that conversation and be open about it even today. And because of that, it does mean that you don't have to feel like there is any sort of pressure or like you said, this feeling that you're broken, which is just so untrue and so unfair. And I always shine you when I got married that freezing your eggs was an option. You know, I had no idea that was even a thing back then. But I wish I just knew what the options were. And no one was speaking about it. So I didn't know. Like I would read articles, you know, working in publicity. I would read almost every magazine that was available to me. And you'd be reading articles about, you know, women in America having babies, you know, in their 40s. I'm like, I have heaps of time to have a baby. Yeah. And then later down the track, I'm like, oh, they were probably using donor eggs. But that article didn't talk to that, you know? And so, and also at schools, they're not talking about fertility. They're telling you how not to get pregnant. But my school is like, you know, you can't not do it. Yeah.

31:45But not talking about the challenges that you can potentially be faced with as well. And actually, how hard on this to get pregnant? And that's the really weird thing, right? Because like we, we, and again, amongst my friends, we've had this conversation is that like for a lot of your 20s, the big scary thing is don't get pregnant. Don't get pregnant. Like, oh my god, like, you know, you've got, you just at university, don't get pregnant. Like, oh my god. And then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, okay, I want to get pregnant. And they're like, oh, this was way harder. Yes. And anyone thought it would be. Oh, absolutely. I've got a lot of friends who are like, we spent our whole lives terrified of getting pregnant. And now it won't happen. Yeah. I know. It's wild. It's wild. And then you're trying to have a baby and never going to be like, just relax. Just going to hold it in. Yeah, exactly. It's like, just yay. Just be relaxed. Yeah, exactly. You know what's really relaxing when you're stressed? Yeah. Is someone telling you to relax and doesn't that just work? 100% of the time. I'm telling self-employed people love being told to do as well. It's good. Yeah. So that goes along with a lot of things. Yeah, exactly. So a big financial impact as well, that people don't plug into the thought of having a child.

32:46What was the financial impact for you for multiple IVF cycles? And had you prepared for it and plotted for it? Yeah. No, I had not prepared for it. I didn't think this was a path that would have to go down and didn't realize how expensive it is as well. I think all that we've probably spent about 200 grand in trying to have a baby. So expensive. Which is, yeah, it's a lot. It's great. There's now some bulk billing clinics, which is available, which is great. So big advocate for those. But no, we hadn't budgeted for that. And yeah, there was something that we had to think about, especially, you know, you're doing it at a time where you're unsure where the business is going to go and what's going to happen when our business essentially got locked down. For a period of time, we had to go, okay, how does this look and feel now? But yeah, we just had to kind of prioritise and go, okay, what can we do without? And all that money that we were, you know, potentially saving for a property or something else just went straight into this because this was a priority and time was of the essence.

33:47So we had to move quickly. There's a trend happening in some companies. And I really don't know how I feel about this. No, it can save me. Yeah, right. Okay, where there are some large companies that will pay for women who work with them to freeze their eggs, which can look like, of course, a very generous way to ensure that they don't have to deal with, you know, fertility problems. Or you could look at it the other way and be like, this is encouraging women to work until they are at the edge of their chance of having a kid. And it's like, oh, well, you know, don't worry about having a kid in your 20s or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's like, yeah, like keep on working on your career. And then as you know, the most IVF is not a guarantee. Yeah. How do you feel about that? I'm so conflicted on it. I'm conflicted on that too. And I think milk them for all they've got. Yes. Freeze as many eggs as possible while they're paying for it. Yes. Milk it. Yes. Milk it because it's funny expensive. So it's on someone else's bill to go for it.

34:49Why not? You're going to work there anyway and work really hard. So take as many benefits as you can if anyone else was offering to pay for me to freeze my eggs, hell, yeah, great. Yes, you know, it can cost up to like 20 grand a cycle. And so sure. But I also think there needs to be a certain level of education because there is no guarantee. Also, if you're freezing your eggs, you've got them, I don't know what the study is, but it's a much less chance of those eggs than turning it into a viable pregnancy. What you want to be freezing is embryos. Yes. And so, you know, an egg becomes an embryo when you have this sperm. And so if you're just freezing eggs, you need to freeze a lot of them. Yes. So if you're going to have one or two rounds, although if you're getting like 30 eggs around, which, you know, if you're in, you know, you're mid 20s, you probably, I mean, everyone's different who knows, but you need to freeze a lot of eggs for that to be a kind of insurance policy. So with this step, so the law of every, do you think it's coming from generally from

35:49a place of good intent or not? It's impossible to say it, right? Yeah. I would like to think that that is a, you know, a nice bonus, but I don't know how many large, but a journal in you. Yeah. Look, I don't know how many large conglomerates do things out of the kindness of their. One of the reasons we're introducing the word conglomerates, we're not really purpose aligned, Alina. A lot of, yeah. I don't think that there's a lot of from the goodness of your heart in a machine, right? And if it were a small company, I'd be like, well, you know, I trust a small company to do. Yeah. What's the intent? Yeah. And what is, like, if I was to offer all of my staff, like, yeah, like, I'm going to pay for all your eggs to go and get frozen, I think that'd be like, that comes from a place of absolutely understanding that that could be an important and, you know, a nice thing to do. But whether it's a big organisation, they're looking at ROI. That's what that's what I tend to think. What do you think about it as a male? What do you think about it as a male perspective? It can't be really honest. It's the first time I've heard about it. Like, yeah, to be honest, you know, I'll share that right because you're asking for my

36:52opinion. Maybe I'm bit naive. I would think I can be a pessimist, but I would, I would, the company I'm working for, I trust them, do I look at longevity and the purpose of a line. So I'd take it in the way I think it was intended. And to your point, Angela, I'd make it work for me, you know, in terms of longevity. You know, so if they're three, five years or whatever, you know, he talks about LinkedIn before people celebrate their own 12-month anniversary. I've been at a company for two years or thanks for the service. So enjoy it over there. So I just, I think like most people within reason, work hard there, make it work for and go from there. If you're going to be working anyway. So one of the things that has come from this, from having a kid from your experience with your IVF journey is that you've learned about slowing down. And that has now seeped into other parts of your life as well. So tell me a little bit about that. Yeah. Well, we did a sea change. So we moved from the city to the Mornington Peninsula. And we actually did this just before we got pregnant because I think, you know, coming out of COVID, everyone learned that we could work a little bit differently.

37:55We didn't have to be in the office every single day. And so we ended up, yeah, relocating from the city down to the peninsula. And I think there was something in that shift that there's something in it. We then became pregnant three months later. And it takes three months for yourselves to rejuvenate. If you're trying to have a baby or go on IVF, they'll say, okay, for three months, let's eat really well. Exercise, it takes three months to kind of get, you know, ready for IVF. And so it was just interesting that three months after doing that move and, you know, having fresh air and going for walks every day. And it's just a different kind of lifestyle being down there every day. Yeah. So now, yeah, do the commute, come up to the city, you know, two to three times a week. And the rest of the time I'm down there and, you know, hanging out with my horses or two horses, three mini donkeys. It's the most adorable thing she was seeing and about 30 chickens which she'd find by another one. My husband's probably going to ask me for a divorce. So that's a lot of chicken that come in this crazy chicken. Yeah, it's a lot of eggs.

38:56A lot of eggs. And so, yeah, it's just a different lifestyle for us and just more intentional way of living and growing our own produce and, yeah, collecting eggs every day. It's a lovely way of, yeah, just living with more kind of intent and purpose, I think. I mean, honestly, it sounds idyllic. I'm so glad that this is how your journey with IVF has gone. There might be someone who's listening to this, who's right in the thick of it, who's feeling stressed, who doesn't know where their life is going to go. What do you want them to know? What would you like to say to those people? Keep going, if you can. And advocate for yourself, you know. The reason I actually end up becoming pregnant was from just advocating for myself, researching, really understanding it, asking a lot of questions. Your doctor's there to support you and they're amazing, but doctors are also really busy, you know. And so, as much information as you can get, you know, reach out to other people that have done IVF, anyone that has done IVF, if anyone sends me a DM, I'm always, you know, straight back at them, offering any sort of advice or things that I learned along the way.

39:59So reach out, form that community, and surround yourself with great people because you're going to need them. Well, Angela, thank you so much for coming on. A big, so generous with your story. Well, thank you for having me. And if you found this episode useful, do make sure that you follow Money in a Good Life wherever you're listening now. So you don't miss an episode and we will see you next time. Advice given in this podcast is general in nature and is not intended to influence decisions about investing or financial products. Our listeners should always seek their own professional advice that considers their own personal circumstances before making any financial decisions.