Cover To Cover with Gloria J. Browne-Marshall

0:00Welcome. You are listening to Cover to Cover, hosted by Mary Elizabeth Jackson, a show featuring lively conversations with cutting-edge authors from around the globe. From debut to multi-award-winning to inspirational, you will find a new author and book to love. Mary is a special needs advocate, educator, speaker, and an award-winning author who brings that edge to dive deep into the writing world, sharing the journeys behind the stories and tips and tools for all things in the writing world. Now, here's Mary. Hello everyone and welcome to Cover to Cover. I'm Mary Elizabeth Jackson and we're on Brushwood Media Network and Brushwood Media is the number one, America's number one syndicated network. Thank you so much, Brushwood Media and thank you to the fans and listeners who are all around

1:00the globe. If you are a history lover, then I know you're going to love today's show. So if you're on social media, please connect with me and you can go to my website, MaryE Jackson.com. And I've got down free downloadables there. My books, I've got links to interviews and if you're a parent of a child with special needs, you can message me if you have questions or you know, you need to get a diagnosis. You're really not sure about how that whole process works. You can go to my website or you can email me at MaryE Jackson.com as well. Now, today's guest is Gloria J. Brown Marshall. She's a professor of constitutional law at John J. College and award-winning writer at playwright and a legal commentator. She has litigated cases for the NAACP, Legal Defense Fund, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the Community Legal Services. Her previous works include, she took justice, the black woman law, and power, and the voting rights war. A frequent commentator on CNN, MPR, and MSNBC. You guys may already know Ms. Brown Marshall has received numerous accolades,

2:05including the 2024 American Bar Association Silver Gable Award and an Emmy Award as a writer and host of your democracy, which is an animated series about the U.S. Constitution. So she's loaded. She has a lot going on. She is a trailblazer and a powerhouse you really want to pull up and sit and listen to this interview today for sure. Gloria, how are you? I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on your show. Oh, I am so excited you're here. Now, she was here in Nashville weeks ago doing on her book tour and I was not, I really wanted to go meet her in person because I love to get to meet my authors in person. It's so fun to get to know them on this side, but then to be able to meet person is a really amazing thing. Now, the book that we're discussing today that you have to go out and get a copy is the protest history of the United States. And it's about the past by what she tries to do or she does is cover the last 500 years of our history. It's nonfiction, but it's interdisciplinary, you know, book and so it can go into several different categories in

3:10genres and I always like to talk about that so people know like if they're searching and they can't remember the book name or the author, they can go find it in those places. All right. And she has a film actually that she is that's out on what you call the film circuit and it's a documentary, but it's, you know, she's traveling around to different festivals and different film events, gaining awards and recognition and just the awareness that's out there, which is really important. And that's called before 1619 Sheet from Justice. And it's about Queen Zingha, right? Yeah. Okay. Gloria, let's go. So you're you're in the middle of a book tour. So tell everybody where you are right now. Right now I'm in New York City and I just returned from Sarasota, Florida and Houston, Texas. You know what? I wish I would have known you were in Sarasota. I would have told my mom to come see you because she's down in that area. Oh, she would have absolutely loved that because she's a big book reader. All right. So we're going to tell you that library journal said Brown Marshall argues that a nation is made better when the people demand more

4:14of it. And her book offers both the history of Anna guide for such protests. So let's just start right off by talking about that that you're trying to portray and you are portraying in your book in your works and and you know what does it mean to you that you know people get it. What about quotation marks around that, right? Get what you're saying and comply. Let's all jump on the bus, right? Well, I'm glad you read that quote because the country is better because of protesters. Now do most people like protesters? No. You know, because when we're in a status quo, when we think this is a good way to live and then someone says, no, there's something else we need to do. It makes people feel unnerved. It's like, first, people don't want to change. But second, it's like, well, how dare you tell me that the way we're living is not good enough for you. So there's the sense of how dare you up end what we see as a satisfactory life or bring to

5:18to our attention something you think we should know that we don't want to know. And so protest has been something that's been around since before the beginning of the country. And that's why I go over 500 years. But next year is the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. And the Declaration of Independence is a protest document. Is the protest by the protest by the American Congress saying to King George, we want a different life. We don't like the status quo. We want to change things. And so when we, as Americans, deride or, you know, put down or call names to protesters, we need to understand that the country was born a protest. We've had protests all of this time, probably every day, somewhere as a protest going on. So I don't know when we're going to embrace the idea of protests as other countries have. But soon, hopefully we'll understand that protest makes us all better. Well, but let's also kind of expand on this. There are different ways that you can protest. I know is a word that, like you said, people are uncomfortable with. And

6:23what we've seen in the news and things of our history, it doesn't cite violence sometimes. We don't want that. We want peaceful change, right? But the other side that is also advocating, you know, and as, and we as the American people have a right, if there's something going on in your environment, what if your family has an experience that's not a good experience? You have the right to call up your local legislators and say, listen, this needs to change. And that's kind of where you got to start sometimes, right? Yes, because James Madison, who's one of the framers of the U.S. Constitution, gave us in writing the First Amendment. And within the First Amendment, we have everyone knows freedom of speech. We have the freedom to peaceably assemble. But we also have the last line of the First Amendment that gives us the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Now, that might sound really fancy, but what it's basically saying is we have the right to petition. To petition is to ask the government for a redress, a redress is a remedy or the fix. Reasons are complaints. So we have the right in the last line

7:27of the First Amendment to ask our government to fix our complaints. And so that's something that was given to us when the First Amendment was ratified in 1791. So when we think about how law, we've had these rights, the law is there, but the law is there with protests makes it a reality. So we have lots of things that are legal, but when you start thinking about the rights we have that are in the Constitution or written on the legal books or wherever they may be, protests says we're going to take that word on paper and turn it to a reality in our lives. Absolutely. And there's a way to do it effectively. I've been advocate. So when I went to Capitol Hill here in Nashville and I was looking to, let's see, what's the word I use? Make right an injustice. I had to do it personally for myself and I did it for the disability community as well. So but what I had to do is be trained how do I as an advocate go in and talk to legislators so that they actually hear me

8:32because if you go in with guns blazing, we don't like those words, but you know what I'm saying, fire, there's a lot of times that people are not listened to. They're not heard. They're not seen. So there is a way to do it in a very effective way. It's like being a mediator and a legal suit, right? Or between two people who heard they're at the table, they're getting divorced or want to and they're fighting about everything, right? So there's a mediator that comes in and says, okay, let's all have some common sense here, right? And let's do this in a very diplomatic way. And then people can get heard. Now that there's sort of a devilish sword there isn't it glory because a lot of times there are things that happen and people are mad and angry and they want things solved right now. But we have to also calm down and think things through, don't we? So we can be effective, right? Well, effective protests also takes many forms. And that's one of the reasons why I wrote a protest history of the United States was to show that protests can be these

9:33streets and the signs and the bullhorn, but protest is also where we choose to put our money. We can decide that a corporation is doing things that we don't like and stop buying those products. We can decide to join an organization. We can support other organizations that are doing things we want them to do, non-profit organizations, for example. There are people who are at this point in time because there's hunger in our country, giving to particular food banks or maybe they're saying that we want to be in the streets, but we don't want to be in harm's way. So they might support the buses that take the people to protest in the streets. And you remind me of someone I was on a panel many, many years ago, a mother who said, I didn't know I'd ever be an activist until my son was born with special needs. So you never know when something's going to happen in your life that says, and you have to say, I've got to speak up. I've got to use my voice.

10:34Now, there are many effective ways in which we can use our voices, but one of the things that happens with protests, that's important. And when you mention going to the offices of different legislative representatives, you are actually disrupting and protest disrupts. And when you can have small disruptions or large disruptions, when you decide to put yourself on that person's schedule, you have now interrupted whatever else that person was doing to say, you need to hear me. So when you see the protesters in the streets, that's what they're doing, but they're doing it in a big way. So that's why I was saying you can disrupt people and say, I need your attention on this. I need you to pay attention to this issue. I need to get on your radar. And so you can make an appointment to talk to your legislator. You're getting on their radar. They were not thinking about you before. And you said, wait a minute. This is something crucial. You need to hear my point. I need to take some time out of your schedule for you to understand what I'm talking about. So people who are protesting in the street are just doing that in a big way. They're saying wait

11:38people out there. There's a crucial issue. I need you to understand what's going on. But unfortunately, I'm trying to think of the nice way to say this. Sometimes the message is lost. Yeah. And that's why in violent protests, people remember the violence. They don't remember the message. They remember why people were out there in the first place. And so the messaging is so crucial. And of course, the people who are pushing against the status quo might be called, I don't know if you were ever called names like too pushing to this to that. Yes. And that's what happens to people who are protesting. They're like, oh, you're un-American. You hate the country. You should leave. All these negative things are said about these people. But at the same time, just take the eight-hour workday. And that's in my book, the eight-hour workday was signed in the law in the 1800s by Nielissa Saskrant who was president of the United States. We didn't get that until almost the mid-1900. So I want you to understand we can have a law on the book. But what it took was workers saying,

12:41wait a minute, I'm still working 12 and 18 hour days or any amount of time my boss wants me to work. But the law says that I'm supposed to be able to work these eight hours. So first, they had to protest and make the number eight hours from 12. Then they had to protest and make the law of reality. So protest is happening all the time. And then we benefit from it. And as soon as we benefit from something that happens through protest, we forget protest gave it to us in the first place. And we just move on. And I don't know if you remember the protest that women had to make and women were called anti men. They were called all these names just to have equal pay in the workforce. I mean, and then if you think about it now, if you found out today that a friend of yours who was working full time was making half of what a man was making, you know, oh my goodness, you should sue. Back then, just the idea that you make half as much as they would say, well, a man has more responsibilities, even also the same job. You know, so he should make more money. And so women had to protest about that. They're, you know, the anti-war protests. There have been so many protests

13:47and there's one that you may or may not remember. Remember the tuna protests? No, I do not. So people actually protested the tuna companies because the tuna companies had these big nets when they were trying to catch the tuna in the high seas, but they were also catching dolphins and killing the dolphins. Oh, I do remember Gloria. Yes, I do. And so people stop eating tuna as a protest. And they said, well, remember selective buying can be protest. We're not going to buy your tuna until you learn how to catch those tuna without killing all those dolphins because you couldn't eat the dolphin. They would just kill the dolphins and throw their bodies aside. It was horrible. And so they figured out a way because their profits started going down. They figured out a way to catch those tuna without catching the dolphins. And so it was because people said, no, I want to see you do certain things differently corporations. So it could be government protests that we have. It could be corporations that people are protesting. There are certain things that they're doing or not doing. So there's always ways to send a message. And then it seems the more people who gather,

14:52that unity has a stronger voice than just one individual saying something. Absolutely. And you know, it's so funny as you're talking about this. I'm thinking about raising children and I'm thinking about how what we have to do sometimes with kids. Well, if this is what you're going to do, then this is what you're not going to be able to do. So it is the same thing. There should be consequences. If you want to choose to do these things and they're going to be consequences corporation for you doing these things, I also have in my book, I start off with indigenous protests. And in the indigenous, when they remind their own business, the European show up and say, we want to live here. And so I always like to say, you're at home and someone shows about your door. And the first hour or two, you might offer them coffee, maybe something to eat. Then after a while, it's like, well, it's time for you to leave. And they say, I kind of like your place. I'm going to stay. So, so you have to figure out, how do I get these people away? You know, what do I do to show them? And so what the indigenous did was like, well, you're not

15:54going to be able to use our hunting grounds anymore. You're not going to be able to use our resources. The same things we're talking about in many ways today, when there are corporations or government or whatever that may be, to send the message to the people who may seem more powerful. And that, so that means you have to have more unified voices. And that's why you see so many big crowds sometimes with protests because it takes a lot of people sometimes to push back against a corporation that has millions and billions of dollars when you have the government that has so many resources and the individualism. Remember they used to say, you can't fight City Hall? Well, you can't fight City Hall alone sometimes. But if you take, you know, a thousand of your close personal friends, you know, I think City Hall will get the message that there's something they need to be doing differently. And so a protest against the United States starts with as an indigenous goes to slave uprisings. Now people would say, you know, what slavery was against the law? I mean, slavery was in law. Running away from slavery was against the law. Everybody was

16:56doing it. But everybody wasn't doing their abolitionists. So everybody didn't believe in slavery. So then you have to find your allies. Who are your allies? And I'm sure in your movement with other women and other family members and other people who in communities, just like you announced, you're like, come get information from me. Those were the teachers that came from the anti-war protests where people were like, well, if your protest against the war, you must be anti-American. Then it was found later that actually the war wasn't right. But it took a long time for people to realize that the war wasn't right at the time the Vietnam War. And so when it finally ended, it was like, well, yeah, I guess we shouldn't have been in that war in the first place. But in the very beginning, though, everybody who protested or spoke against it was seen as somebody un-American. So there's always the name calling. You have to have the teachings. As you said, if you know, contact me and I'll give you information. And so people need to know what the issues are. And so when I wrote a protest history of the United States, I wanted to empower people

17:59to understand that protest is more than just going out with a sign and coming back. That's fine. But what's the tactic? What's the strategy? What's the goal? What's the message? What's the information you want other people to have who aren't in the protest? Because you need to persuade them to help you. So all of those things were part of what God has to this point where two women could be on the air right now. I want you to think this was something. If you go back 50 years, this would be unheard of. If you even said, I want to do this program. They were like, wait a minute. This isn't something you should be able to do. And so it took all of this time and effort for us to do things that thankfully we can take for granted. But other people had to work really hard and protest in order for us to do it. Right. And so we need your book is very important because we need to know the history of the past coming up till now. So we can be more effective. We can be more empowered. And like, glorious thing. And there's an issue that you have that there's an issue you're passionate about. Do your research. Don't just start mouthing off.

19:02Don't just like jump on the bandwagon of all the winers and complainers. Be effective. Go get yourself educated. You know, look it up. Read about it. Talk to somebody who knows about it so that then you can get in there with a sound mind, logic, and reasoning. And you can be effective, which is super, super important. And now we, I want to ask you real quick about your film. And what now you've got. Tell me again or tell everybody who doesn't know you. How many books do you have out? Which number is this for you? This is my seventh book. A protest history in the United States is my seventh book. And I've written, I'm also a playwright. So I've written plays. And one of my plays, Shotcarta Soul, is actually on Amazon. But or where you can buy your books. But the thing that that I really like is that I, and we were talking about this earlier, is that I write across genre. So on the playwright, I also write short stories. I have a short story in the Marvel universe. Yeah, which story is that? You have to tell me.

20:04This short story is titled chaos. And so, and so I created this, this, this character. And her name is Charlotte Olivia. But when she becomes very angry, she's a teenager. Can you imagine? This teenager has the power that when she becomes very angry, all people around her their minds go to chaos. So that's a, that's a character I created. And so I write essays. I write, as I said, short story. So I think about what issue is it that I want to get across? What do I, what am I concerned about? What do I want people to know? And, and then I think, what is the best platform for me to help people understand that issue? And so it might be a play, you know, going back and it always contains history somewhere. But it might be a play. It might be a short story. I've written several articles and essays. So that's, that's what it is that, that I try to do. But the protest, a protest history of the United States has chapters on women's rights, on unions. That's another thing. Many families began by

21:14having a family member be a part of a union. And that's how they made it to the middle class. You know, so, you know, union workers are saying, I don't want to be treated a certain way. I need to labor protections. And a lot of protections people have on their jobs. They had to protest to get those protections. So I went to West Virginia and learned more about the coal miners. And the protest of the coal miners used to be a part of in the late 1800s and early 1900s. And what they went through, and now you see once again, coal miners are back in the news once again. Why? Because they're having these illnesses that come from, you know, not getting the protections that they need and the, and the health care that they need, you know, and because of the work that they're doing. So those things, they're in the news and you're going to start seeing protests around that issue as well. Because people will say, everybody's busy. I've got to get your attention. And that's why when you see the signs in the streets and you see the different ways in which people are, they're trying to get your attention. So you pay attention to what it is they're going through

22:16and then you can help them. Oh, absolutely. 100%. And I can't, gosh, we can just talk forever. There's so much to talk about with all that you're doing. It's so rich and so important. And I want to ask you real quick about your, your film, your short documentary that you have out right now. It's 29 minutes, you said. And why did you choose this topic? I chose Queen and Zingha because once again, it's like an amazing thing that women have done. I want women to feel more empowered. I want women to understand that it's good to be a woman and to be a woman in your own right. Not just because of your husband, father, son. Well, remember, you stand born here, God-given gifts as a female. That by itself is important. That by itself. And if I can get more women to understand their self worth as as an individual, God has given the put on this earth, you know, and then you can do this. You do that. You do all these other things. That's true.

23:16But first and foremost, you were created as an individual on this planet. And that has to be secured first. And so Queen and Zingha born in 1500s. And she then is the daughter of a king, an African king. And the Portuguese come and they start taking over the land. And so she has, she watches her father try to navigate all these things. That's how she learns her diplomacy skills. She's got a brother. And she's watching her brother take these lessons on how to be a warrior. And they actually take these lessons from a tutor, how to use the spear, the knife, and all these things. It was like a little school that they were all in. And she used to hide in the shadows. She would do the same thing. She's our brothers doing. And then one time the tutor saw her and said, oh my goodness, you're better than your brother. You're better than the boys. And so he started then giving her lessons after asking her father and her father. Can you imagine in a 1600 says, yes, you can train my daughter. And so she learns how to be this warrior. And as then more war

24:23starts to happen between the Portuguese and the Africans as the Portuguese continue to try to take over the land. Queen Zingha's father dies. The brother takes over. And the brother is a playboy. And he starts giving away things in order to secure his own power. And Queen Zingha is watching this in 1622. D is sick by her brother to negotiate a peace treaty with the Portuguese. A woman in 1622, not 1822, 17, 1622. And she goes there and long story short, they have a mat on the floor for her. And they want her because she's African and there you appear to sit on the floor. And she goes and she calls her maid servants and they give their backs and they she sits on their backs and then uses that as a chair so that she has eye to eye to the Portuguese. And then they enter into this peace treaty and then they break the peace treaty and she goes to war. So you have European queens who led people into battle from the throne. Queen Zingha led people into battle

25:29herself on the battlefield. So when yes, so my film before 1619, she took justice. Is one of a part of the of my book is one of the stories of my book she took justice. And so that's the book that I wrote before I wrote this one, a protest history of the United States. And a protest history of the United States has, as I said, a chapter on women. And how women got to have certain rights that we have today that we take for granted again that a lot of women spend a lot of time working very hard for us to have these rights. And so I go up to the point of climate change, my book, my book ends with protests around climate change. And so, you know, when you think about all the different things that we have in our lives, there's something there in my book, a protest history of the United States for anyone who has rights and wonders where they came from. Oh, amen. Amen. Okay. Now, you need to tell everybody where they can find you. And the book is on Amazon. So that's very easy to get a protest history of the United States. But

26:34where can everybody find you or if they want to connect with you or have you come speak? Oh, well, so my website is brownhyphenmartial23.com brown with an e hyphenmartial 23 at you know, so brownhyphenmartial and brown has an emartial has two else 23.com. But if you put in glory on brown Marshall, it will pop up also on Instagram as well as Facebook and in blue sky. So threats. That's another one. So if you want to connect with me, you can. And I also, if I just think people should know that protests history of the United States tells us about our power. We don't have to agree, but we do have to understand that this country was born a protest, has always had protests. We'll continue to have protests. And the protesters not always bad. We have to think about what message are we giving? And for those protesters who are listening or people who have protest protested, what message are you delivering and making sure that it's clear to the other people, not just

27:39the people in your protest, but to the other people. What is it that you want them to do? What is it that you want them to change? Don't just protest against also protest for something. Oh, amen, amen. Okay, you heard it here today. And you have to look up Gloria, get her book. Oh my gosh, I'll have to have you back on for sure. Thank you so much everywhere. You're listening around the globe. Thank you, Gloria. And I will be back soon. Thank you for being a part of our audience today. Please share the show with your friends and tune in for the next episode of Cover to Cover for all things in the author world. As a mom, I want my kids' lives to be filled with joy and possibility. And I love that for every kid. That's why I support No Kid Hungry. They work in schools and communities to make sure every kid gets the healthy meals they need. Please join me in supporting No Kid Hungry for all kids.