Confronting My Polygamous Cult at a Funeral (ft. Amanda Rae Grant)

0:00So, you're running out of closet space. The good news? You don't need to stop shopping. You just need to start selling, with the real real. The real real is the world's largest and most trusted resource for authenticated luxury resale, whether it's that mini bag that can't even fit your phone, or those boots you never fully broke in. The real real handles everything, from photography and copywriting, to shipping and pricing, so you can just sit back, get paid, and make room for things that actually feel like you. Working with 10,000 plus new arrivals every single day, from cop designers like Prada, Selene, Louis Vuitton, and Louis Vé, all for up to 90% off retail. You're bound to find something perfectly on-brand to fill that extra closet space with. Plus, right now, you can get an extra $100 to shop when you sell for the first time. Make room for what feels like you! Go to therealreal.com to start selling and get your extra $100 to keep shopping, at therealreal.com. That's therealreal.com. Welcome back again to Close to Consciousness.

1:02My name is Shlees and Sola, and we're joined again today by the one and only Amanda Ray. You know, they're going to get rid of me. So a lot of you are probably like, wow, has a man have been living in your house? Yes, she has. We're working on something pretty big. We've hinted at it, teased it before. We can't give you details, but she's been here for over a month. Has it been a month? It's been more than a month, I think. Over a month? Or we're approaching that. And more time to go. So the funny thing, well, it's not the funny thing. But when you're with somebody who's left a cult and you're working on something cult-related, a lot of topics get brought up and then we're like, let's write that down. We should do a live about this. And so this is one of those topics that kind of came up naturally in discussion and we realized that we should probably broadcast it because there will probably be people who resonate with it who can understand what we're talking about and maybe we can give some clarity around some of those things, not that we're experts.

2:02But we're going to try, but we're definitely going through the motions of it all. Yes, we're going to be talking about our experiences with having to go back into the belly of the beast of the funerals and seeing those same people over again and what it does to your mental health after you've done so much work in leaving. So first of all, positive thing for our mental health. We've been hanging out with David Archie Letter this weekend, which is so fun. If you are familiar with him, we just did an episode, a release, an episode, I think was our most recent one, go watch it. He grew up warming in the church. He was on American Idol. He was actually a finalist, top two. And he's exact same age as me. And so he was both a part of our upbringing growing up in some way and he went on a mission. The whole thing was kind of like the Mormon poster boy. And he ended up coming out as queer leaving the church. And so he's doing a book, citing in Austin tonight. So we're going there after this if you want to come in here in Austin. But we've been hanging out with him. I think it's been cathartic for both of us and healing and like going to clubs and dancing.

3:08He was, yeah, to be able to like get it down on the dance floor, but then also be like, so how are you guys doing in your healing, you know, to be able to have both worlds in one person is really, it was really healing and to see the growth that we're all trying to get to through and you'd think that I think a lot of people don't relate so much to me because my experience is so extreme. But in that those moments, there was a lot of relation even though there's still a lot of relatability in certain topics. And even just like you were relating, Alyssa Grenville was there too last night and the night before and you were relating to her and her mom and how she kind of feels a little cut off and you feel so, I mean, I don't want to talk too much about Alyssa's story. But all that to say is been an awesome weekend. So if you're in Austin and you want to go check out the book signing day, but our tell us tonight. So the topic getting back into it, you've been here for, we said a little over a month

4:11and even still you've been out 13 years. We've been going through some healing and I guess I wanted you to talk about your experience so that people understand that it's not this linear. Like you leave a cult and things get better and better and better and better and better and better. And then you're fine. Yeah. Well, and I think a lot of when I was on this game, putting me a lot of people were saying, oh, well, I still say it like so glad you're free, so glad you got out, so glad you're finally, you know, living the life that you want, which is all true. But I think there's so much that even, even me when I was in the order, I thought that when I would leave, then it would be like, and now we're happy now, but that was not the case. And there was actually quite a lot of moments where I was like, why am I not happy? I just lost everything. The best way I can describe it to someone who doesn't understand it, which I honestly I feel like a lot of you would understand this, but if you've ever seen the movie Room, the premise of it is she's got kidnapped and she was stuck in this room and she got pregnant

5:11by her captor and she's the child doesn't even know anything else but the room. He thinks the world is the room. And she finally escapes right after years of all this abuse, she escapes and my mom actually watched that when so my mom escaped on a scale and then she went back and in the time that she had escaped on a scale and put me, I showed her that movie. I was like, look at this movie thinking it would inspire her. But it showed the harsh reality of after that woman left, she was like suicidal. She was like having a really hard time with all the trauma. And my mom watched that and she was like, well, why can't she just be happy? And I was like, what's that? So where's the disconnect and I guess it makes sense because I had that disconnect too when I first left. I was like, now all the sad stuff's over and the time for the happy. But it was not the case because I did not realize how bad everything really was. And I did not realize how caged I was even within myself. Like when I just because I left a cult doesn't mean just because the cage I left, I still

6:13had a cage on myself. Like I didn't know how to deconstruct things without the knowledge to deconstruct them. So I was out here kind of still just being very, very depressed and not even knowing that it was depression, not knowing. It's also like if your whole life you're sad, that's just your emotion. Like that's just how you are, right? So you don't think that it's sad or depressed or whatever. So I was living in this like lower level vibration my whole life because I thought that was how it had to be. I didn't know anything else. And honestly, one time I, I think the one like spark of getting out of that for a second was when I did, I should ever tell you that I took some antidepressants for a little bit, just for a little bit. And I literally was like, is this what it's like to not be me? I guess I guess I am depressed because I didn't realize until I took something that made me out of that.

7:13That forced me out of that. That made you feel better. Yeah. I was like, whoa. And it was weird to see how my brain kept trying to get me back down to where I was. Does that make sense? Yeah. So that's interesting that your baseline was so low that feeling happy felt odd. Yeah. It was actually having those happy chemicals, the serotonin in your brain, the oxidos, and fell off. Right. And yeah, I think that process of healing, we talked about this on the live on my channel too, or was it on my channel where we talked about how, yeah, he who increased it, knowledge increases sorrow. But then there was the other aspect of like, you also get to experience joy. So when I left, I had basically this, this range of emotion, that's, that's all I had. Because that's all I was allowed to have in the order. And then I came out here and I, I, it's been years. I would say it wasn't even until I moved to California last year that I started really feeling range of everything else. Wow. 13 years. And it took me that long to be like, whoa.

8:14And even when I moved to California, I was like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Like there's, there's no way I'm allowed to be this happy. Yeah. There's no way that this is a thing like the other shoe's going to drop. So I'm just waiting for that to happen. So it's like, even though the life is happy, my brain's like still putting myself in this lower level because, because something's going to happen, because the whole life has been that way. Yeah. So I don't know if that resonates with anyone, but that's, that's kind of painted a picture of the past 13 years in my life. Well, and I'm hoping everyone heard that because everyone's like, no sound, it's buffering a lot. What's going on? Oh, no. What happened? Yeah. John, then let me know if you want us to go out and come back in because obviously we want people to be able to hear it. Let us know if it's better. I think he went and turned off a few things that may have been streaming. So yeah, so there's a lot of bottom line is there's a lot of work to do when you leave a cult and or a high control group or even a high control person, right?

9:17A relationship, even it could be a family member, like we talked about with David Archie Lettuce story. And you leave and you're like, okay, what is normal and trying to recalibrate your emotions, first of all, and recalibrate, recalibrate your environment of, okay, what's normal in a roommate situation like with you growing up with a big family and always having cousins around. But now do you have a roommate and do you trust people on the outside or do you just stick with your siblings or you know, there's so many different things that you have to navigate. And so, okay, I think everything's good now. Good. I hope so. And so what happens then when you've been doing all of this work and everything, you finally feel like, okay, I'm good. I'm feeling normal. I'm feeling released when your new normal is. I'm feeling regulated and then someone passes away and you not only have to deal with the

10:18grief of losing a family member, but you feel, and I want to get everyone's opinion on this too. And please drop your questions in the comments and we'll pull those up in a minute. But the feeling of I want to go back to the funeral because I loved this person and I want to show respect and also with the full realization that you're jumping feet first back into a fire that you just padded yourself down from and healed from, you're still dealing with the smoke damage. And you're like, I'm going to run right back in because you want to in some way, but the dread that comes with knowing you have to. Yeah. Because you worked so hard. I was, I posted this on my sort of, they actually like the morning, the loss of someone who's still alive, like the people that are going to be at that funeral, you already mourned the loss of the people that are still alive, which is undescribable. It's so painful, but you had to mourn them because otherwise you'd be mourning the loss of yourself. Yeah. And so you just did all that work and now you're going to go back into the room of the people

11:21who made you have to make that decision. Yeah. So do you want to talk about your experience first or should I go? Maybe I think you should go because this is more supposed to be about you. And then I'll talk about my experience after. Okay. So this was my grandma's funeral who actually wasn't in the order, but my mom's mom. And so that would be the first wife's mom. That would be my mom's mom. That would be, there was a lot of people that knew this woman. And that's even the only reason I got invited because I have had ants that have died in the order. And I didn't even know that they were dead and someone through the grapevine had to tell me I wasn't invited to their funeral. I even had a woman that I worked with that I was very close with. Actually, it was, it was Ortelles first wife. I loved her and we spent all this time back in advance copy like sewing together. And she would tell me all these stories of back when the in the order was first created because she was like a original person. And then I asked one day, I think I asked someone a family member who like was still talking to family members there.

12:21And I was like, whatever happened to her and and how was she doing? And they're like, oh, she died like a month ago. I'm like, no one was going to tell me like they just don't want us to be part of it anymore. And they just they cut us off in such a anyways, I have to do like explanation because I that's only I believe that's the only reason I was able to go to that funeral was because she was an outsider and I had there was more outside family than inside family advocating for it. So I just remember going and and me and my sister were walking in and we and the doors were we're getting to the doors to open into the the what is that room where they're doing the ceremony. The chapel or it was it in a church building like in Mormon church? No, it was it was at a cemetery so it was a mortuary something like that. Yeah. Okay. Because it was there and then they were yeah, the viewing room where they get there on the podium and they're talking about my grandma. So we were going in and we're going to open the door and we were like both taking a deep breath and I was shaking because it's like a room full of people that not only physically abused me but mentally and all all other kinds of things there with the Rachel who is

13:22also left. Yeah. Yeah. So it's me and my sister who had left. How long had you been out since you? That would have been because if this was July of not last year but the year before. Okay. So like at least 10 years you've been out. Yeah. So still getting the shape. But like you've been out for 10 years and you've been very public about your opinions on the order on your YouTube channel. That's that too. If anyone lives under a rock and hasn't seen him in his channel, go check out that after this but she's basically the face of leaving the order and talks about all the intricacies and what goes on there. So yeah. So they have an extra reason. Yes. Like me. That's what I was saying. The stakes are a little higher. Yeah. So I go in and yeah, it's nerve-wracking and then we go out to, you know, have the casket wherever it puts the roses on the casket and there's some speeches out there. They're happening and then there was a little luncheon and I went to the luncheon and my dad chose to come up and sit by me and it was super interesting because I felt nothing

14:26that like back when I was in the order, I was always like, you know, because he was the one that was going to come beat me. But I felt nothing because we were in this room full of people and also like, what are you going to do now? Like it's, do it. I dare you. But he sat next to me and he was like, I remember being like so confused why he was asking me this, but sorry, I had another brother that had left that was very uncomfortable being there and it was very obvious. And he was like, why do you think so and so is so uncomfortable being here? Like I invited him. Does he not feel welcome? Oh my God. Yeah. And so I was like, how can he be that unaware? That's what I was thinking. I was like, is he asking me this because he genuinely wants to know and he wants my perspective because I can tell him and I did and I was like, well, he's probably uncomfortable around you because like for me, the last memories I have of you, you were beating me. And then he like almost like spit out his water and he was like, just very uncomfortable with my answer. But I'm like, that's it. Did you ask me because you wanted me to lie to you?

15:27Like I don't understand why you're asking me this question. Do you really genuinely not understand why the kid, one of the kids that you abused the most, one of the ones he abused the most because this is my brother that was gay and my dad would really tell him, oh, you're doing this for attention, oh, you know, terrible, terrible stuff to him. And so then he has the audacity to be like, why is he uncomfortable? I invited him. So, but then I go home and I tell Rachel the experience and she was like, man, did you realize how bad I asked that was that you just told him that he is gay? And I was like, oh, that's true because you would never ever pass anything like that Tim, right? I mean, no, but I also hadn't had any opportunities to since I'd left, right? Like literally, but when you were in, you wouldn't even dreamt of saying something like that. When I was in, it was always a power struggle and he was beating me. Like it was he was beating me into submission or a screaming match or, you know, so, yeah.

16:30Cheese. So, what about your other family members though? How did they react to you being there? Were they obviously uncomfortable with you there? That's what's so weird about the order is they're so hypocritical that they're so good at it. Like, hi. How are you? And it was like that. You know what that's like. And they'll be us. We're about to talk about mine. But yes. Yeah. So, it reminds me of this brief story of the time that my mom invited me over to the house for this tea party one day and I'm on the property and it was kind of weird because she didn't invite me over often because I wasn't allowed to really be there. So, I was there. And then the first time I found out and as soon as the first time I found out she runs over to get the kids away from me. And as she's there scolding my mom about how dare you let her energy in this area like I was the devil. As she's doing that, I say, hi. And she goes, hi, can you believe she did so weird. I was like, what the hell? At least be honest to my face.

17:31And I'm like, I just saw what you said to my mom about me. That is crazy. Yeah. And I kind of like the energy that was there was like these people that abused me my entire life are like smiling. Hello. And you have to make this decision because I went to another funeral a different year, a few years back and you have to make the decision of am I going to smile back and give you a hug like nothing happened or be like, you know, which so there was another funeral where Jesse, I'm going to name drop him. Jesse was there and that's the leader's brother. This is Michelle's dad. Jesse was there with all of his wives. And a lot of his wives are my aunts because he married his sisters, right? So there was a line of people shaking hands and I shook hands with all of my aunts who were married to him. And then it was his turn and I was like, and and the the shock on his face like, yeah, I was like, why would I shake your hand? Yeah. I don't know where that's been. But yeah. So that's a picture of like the vibes of it.

18:33So yeah, I don't know. Similar to what you went through, but these days I'm all about quality over quantity, especially in my closet. That's honestly why I love quints. The fabrics feel elevated and the pricing actually makes sense. Quints makes high quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like a hundred percent European linen and a hundred percent silk. And I personally love their lightweight caught and cashmere sweaters, which are perfect for the changing seasons because quints works directly with safe ethical factories that cut out the middleman, which means you're not paying for brand markup. They're consistently rated 4.5 to 5 stars by thousands of customers. So it's pretty clear people of quints, including me with about two months left in my pregnancy. I've been wearing their maternity leggings non stop. The fabric is thick and comfortable and the small details in the stitching and fit means they don't slide down finally right now go to quints.com slash cult free for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will now available in Canada to don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to QUINCE.com slash cult free for free shipping and 365 day returns quints.com slash

19:39cult free. On cults to consciousness, you hear stories about people finding their way after tough situations. Sometimes caring for a parent or loved one can feel just as overwhelming. It's a big shift when the person who raised you now needs your help. With care.com, you don't have to do it alone. Whether you know exactly what kind of care your loved one needs or you're still figuring it out, there's support. You can find background-checked caregivers through care.com for anything from companionship to dementia care. Or browse senior living communities, read real reviews, and even schedule a tour. Care.com's algorithm suggests caregivers based on your needs, like location and experience. 29 million families have turned to care.com to find help. For a limited time, use the code pod20 for 20% off your initial care.com subscription. That's pod20, all one word, good for 20% off. Start your senior care search today. When it's not you, it's care.com.

20:40Yeah, so I'll tell my story and then we can talk about even just the aftermath of that of like trying to dissect what actually just happened. How am I feeling about it? Did it throw me into a weird mental space? So for me, if anyone's familiar with my story, grew up Mormon, I left when I was like 20 ish, 1920, and then I uncovered memories of CSA for my dad. And about six years later, maybe five years later, my grandma passed away so his mom. And I was like, damn. Because this is, the reason why it was so difficult for me to go to that one, it didn't even have to do it. The Mormonism. Honestly, I was like, whatever that came into play later, but I was like, I don't want to go back and face the family members who think that I made up my abuse for attention,

21:41who think I convinced my mom that this whole story happened and she divorced him and now he's sad and alone and then he was in an accident and paralyzed. And so it was like, I was the bad daughter for not coming to his side and helping him. And I'm just like, okay, so I'm going to walk into this and I have no idea how they're going to be because behind the scenes and Utah's small town, small, small town really. And I was hearing through the grapevine that they were saying some pretty malicious things about me, about my mom, about how they wanted to bankrupt me and bring me back to the church, like all this, like if I shared my story publicly, which, hi, here we are. So I was like, I am about to face the people who literally want to take everything from me and bring me back to Mormonism as if that's the Christ-like thing to do. So I remember having a therapy session, which was like one of three that I ever had and

22:42this was probably the only one that actually was beneficial because I dropped her immediately after this. But this was a good, good advice. She was like, go in there and be the person that makes you feel powerful, own the room, like think of the adjectives you want to describe yourself as and walk in with that in mind instead of walking in with the fear, which you can't, obviously you can't avoid having fear if you're afraid. But holding that is like a badge of, I am powerful, I am strong, I am capable and all of those things. And I also didn't know it at the time, but I was pregnant with Raya, I didn't know. So there was that working against me in my emotions. So I fly to Utah because I live in California at the time and I had so much anxiety. I was like, oh my gosh, and I pull up to the church building because they're always in the LDS chapels, the funerals.

23:43And there were a couple of cousins who I loved dearly, like the only, there was one cousin out of like 50. They reached out and was like, shh, are you okay after everything went down and can we talk about this? No one else did. Of all of my cousins. So there's that too, like people just don't care, either they don't care about what happened to me, they don't care to know what happened to me. I think I made it up and that I'm just like, say, and also I have my channel, so because I think the channel existed was most of them, like all of them, all of them, all of them. Yeah. And so the one cousin was like, oh, we're doing a, not if you know, we're doing a viewing for the family members in this separate room because I think they, that's what they normally do for Mormon funerals is the family can just go in and have a moment with the casket and with the loved one before they take it up into the main chapel and then do the funeral service thing. So I was like, yeah, I'd rather not be in an even more enclosed space with other people

24:46who hate me, though I opted out of that. And then not only just those feelings, but then you have like, what do I wear to this? Because I also, I, I want to be respectful of the religion, but I also want to wear what I want. I don't want to feel like I have to go in and a cardigan and like all the, the normal rules that you have to, all the things you have to wear when you go to a Mormon church, like you can't wear pants as a woman in a Mormon church if you're not aware, you have to wear a dress, it has to be a certain length and you can't show your shoulders and all the stuff. And I'm like, what do I wear that makes me feel like me? And then I'm not conforming back into like the sweet little me pure modest Mormon girl, you know? So I chose a spaghetti strap dress, but then I put like a really pretty open kind of free people knit cardigan over it. And I was like, I feel like this is good. And I took it off in the middle of it and I felt fine about it. It was like, this is me and judge me if you want. So anyway, I get in there because I that's so interesting because I didn't ever think

25:48about that. The modest one. But I do remember for this funeral, I had the thoughts of what I wear and I wore something super modest. Uh huh. But I wore my Luba Tonshu. No. Yeah, just like a little sliver of, but this is me. Yes. You can't take that from me. So I I skipped the viewing thing and then the whole family files in because it's huge family. Uh, it's pretty typical, huge extended family. So they all file in and one by one, I see them kind of seeing me and some would smile, some just would look away. And so it's that anxiety of like, how is every single cousin going to react to me? How are all of my aunts and uncles going to react to me? And I just sat off to the side and thankfully my two best friends came with me and my brother too. I was like, please. So I felt like I had some armor of support, which was very necessary in my case. So the thing that struck me though about the funeral was I didn't get emotional at all.

26:50Like I didn't cry and I loved this grandparent. I had the same experience. Right? I feel like I was in such fighter flight mode and my nervous system was so shot. Not only was I facing my abuser who I had cut off, but his entire family who thinks I'm say in and made it all up. And I'm sitting in a Mormon church, which haven't sat in a Mormon church in like 10 years. And so all of these, the situations, the people, the circumstances, I was just like heightened. And I just, you don't feel safe to cry in front of them. No. I did not feel like I was going to shed a tear in front of any of them. That's probably what it was that we weren't in a place of safety. And so we weren't giving ourselves permission to even have emotions, like real raw human emotions of experiencing loss. Yeah. Because your biggest abusers were there. So why am I going to cry in front of them? Yeah. And so I remember kind of feeling guilty about that too. Like why am I not crying?

27:50However, I don't know if this is like the same thing for you, but when they did the ceremony, it was almost just like a church talk. Like no one really even said anything about grams. And I was like, man, my brother went on like a 10 minute like history lesson on how her last name is Hancock and the where that ties into all these strong men and how our last name is Hancock. Oh my gosh. I was like, is anyone going to say anything about grandma? Yeah. We're going to talk about Hancock and the history of the name for like seven years. Exactly. And so I also was like, do I feel bad that I don't feel bad because no one's even really bringing up grandma in a way that would make me feel emotional? Right. It was just kind of one after the other of reading scriptures and plan of salvation and everything, which I understand can give people a lot of comfort. But I also believe that it creates bypassing spiritual bypassing quite a bit. Because one thing that I noticed growing up in the Mormon church was that when someone

28:52would pass, the sentiment was, oh, don't be sad. You're going to see them in the afterlife. Well, don't be sad. You're going to see, you know, that's what eternal families are for. Like you're allowed to mourn the beautiful life that you should be able to mourn. You need to mourn them. And also, it's not you will see them, it's you'll see them in heaven. If you follow the rules, if you leave, be afraid, yeah, exactly. Then you can mourn the loss of your loved ones. So it's like this really weird, weird dichotomy of pretending and being happy and like everything's fine. She's in a better place, which I love. I love the idea of of celebrating someone who maybe wasn't doing well and now they've passed on and their their soul is free. But under the guise of we don't have to mourn because we're in the one true church and we're the ones that are going to see our families again. So don't worry. You're okay. But then right also looking at me, but you're going to see grandma. Right. Not you though. You go ahead and cry.

29:53Yeah. Exactly. Okay. We've been going for a little bit. Let's take some questions and comments. I love that not only you both are so comfortable discussing this, but how you make others feel safe and comfortable to you. Thank you. Oh, that's so sweet. Jonathan, let me know if Caitlin ended up showing up. Oh, gee. Amanda. Amanda is love. I call people out. Both are wonderful women doing so much for yourselves and others. Thank you so much. Thank you for the super chat. That's so nice. I love the friendship that you do have. Yeah. So so nice. She's like a sister. I know. I feel like we've definitely evolved our friendship when you're when you're being forced in close corners. Yeah. For like Amanda, we're kidnapping until the job is done. So she's just loving it. That's now. And that's why that's how you know the job's not done. Yes. I'm still here. Exactly. So much love and kudos to you both. I appreciate you. I found Amanda on TikTok. And let me tell you that I was stunned over the fact that the state doesn't do anything

30:53about the abuse metamilia that innocent. Yes, incest and foreigner as wild to me as a foreigner. It's wild to me. Yeah. To think I've been taught, I've been telling the public. My dad has kids with his sister ever since I left the order and was on a scheme including me. And I've been out. Yeah. 13 years. National TV. Yeah. And I believe me. It's put in prison as Jacob Kingston because he stole money from the government. We'll have a billion dollars. He stole. Well, we'll have to check from the government. But it still pissed me off. I'm like, you guys got him. And then when there's so much evidence of the abuse and the neglect and the sad, sad stuff that's happening to all these little kids, it's like, well, if we just don't look at it, then maybe it won't be happening. Yeah. Exactly. So many things going on that are illegal that are just flying under the radar or they're being paid off to fly out of the radar. Yeah. I think that's a big part of it too. Yeah. Any other comments, questions before we continue? I have to say, thanks for the super chat.

31:53I have to say I saw Mormon's story about Bishop asking 12 year olds regarding her personal purity. Yeah. So that's kind of common over there, isn't it, where they will ask really inappropriate questions to young girls? Well, it's not that it's common. It's that it's protocol. So like with that comment, and yes, I agree that it is a form of CSA, and I do not stand by it at all. I can't fault the bishop because there also depends on the bishop. So let me say this, they are called to do a role. They're called from the congregation. They have in no way dedicated their life to service of the church or gone to pastoral school or had any sort of clerical training. They're literally just called from the congregation to be the leader of the congregation for a certain amount of time, usually around four years. And so they're just doing what they're told. Like this is the handbook, and this is what you follow. There are bishops who have said, I don't want to do this. There was a bishop who was ex-communicated because he's like, hey guys, can we just like

32:56not do this actual questions for the children that would be great? This doesn't make me feel comfortable, and this shouldn't be happening. It's communicated in for it, and then they allowed a parent in the room after that. But can we just ex the sexual questions no matter what? Because what's worse than confessing your sexual sins to a grown man is having your parent in the room listening. Yeah, and you're not going to be honest, too. I know. What's the point of this? So all of that to say, I can't totally blame the bishops. There are bishops who push back. There are bishops who take advantage, who I can blame for this, asking, clarifying questions that don't need to be asked for asking about details. And yes, I think those are the predators who were given a powerful role. And they don't even require background checks to be a bishop in the US. They do in the UK now because of some protesting. So yeah, it's a mess, and it shouldn't be happening.

33:56Wow. Any other questions before we keep going? Amanda, second cousin here. I love watching all your videos. You are so courageous and inspiring. Love when you two collab and share the hard truth. It's so important. What's my second cousin? What's their name? Sorry, I'm so blind. Kyla Paul. Us. Oh, we grew up next to her. Well, I remember you. You know, you guys are actually a big reason why I think that we started to see some more of what's going on outside because they were outsiders. I remember being like, a lot of the things didn't make sense to me. And I remember being like, these guys are kind of weird. But then they were probably like, man, it's kind of weird. Oh my gosh. And now she has a peek into what was actually going on. And I knew that they knew because they're related to us. But as though there's so much you can know and not know if you're not actually like going to like the functions and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

34:57That's so cool. It's nice to see you. What is your mindset the first time you know you're seeing people from the cult? Yeah. So that's a good question. I mean, I think you're talking about your first reaction when you realize or what is your mindset the first time you know you are seeing people from the cult. I think they mean when you know you have to go back and see people from the cult. Oh. Right? Yeah. I think it's evolved over the years. In the past, it was a different version of me and now I'm this version of me. And so now it's more so like, like if I were to see my mom, I wouldn't be the person I was before where I'd be like, please like like clinging to the hope that she's going to love me and she's going to protect me and she's going to for so long. I was like, just opening the door for her love and affection only to get spat on. Yeah. So now I have a different set of like meeting her, well, I don't really see her, but if

35:58I were to see her meeting her where she's at and just like, it would probably just be a lot of like gray walling and because a lot of the times you have to either validate their experience and then that's invalidating yours or your validating yours and then it's offending them. Yeah. So then you just have to literally talk about like, how's the weather? Exactly. And even though this is your mother. Yeah. So I think that's a good segue into, I'll finish my story and then we'll talk about the mindset after and then we'll get to more of you guys' questions to leave them in the chat. So after the Mormon part, like in the church building, we went to the graveside and I was like, I'm going to go. I'm not, I mean, I'm here. I might as well just do the whole thing, I flew out here and that's when people start coming up to you because I haven't seen them in so long and so seeing my aunts and uncles, it was very interesting how some people reacted. Like some of, some of them just completely ignored me while their spouse talked to me.

37:03What? And the spouse is like very kind and I think genuine. I'm like, it's so good to see you. Oh my gosh. How have you been? How's California? You always have to say, I think genuine because I, I, I, I, I was like, whoa, my, my half-brother's actually changed a lot and then, and then hearing what he was saying behind my back. I'm like, what the hell? Exactly. So and then there were some that were not very shy about just like just staring at me and not really. I would almost rather not. Me too. Because then you know how they feel about you or at least partially know how they feel about you. Yeah. And there were a lot of cousins who were very kind, mostly just from the same family though. The one, the same family of the one cousin that reached out because they actually knew my story, knew I didn't make it up and believed me and supported me. But then I mean, obviously seeing my dad, that was a whole thing. The way that like, do I want to say this? Well, did you, did he come up to you or did they try to make it?

38:07Yeah. So I, I was outside the church building, talking to or catching up with a few cousins who seemed genuine again like, oh, hey, should I even? And then he rolled out, because he's in wheelchair, and then he rolled out literally. No, you have to laugh right. And he looked at my two best friends who were like sisters to me growing up and the look on his face when he was like, wow, you two are so beautiful. I was like, what the hell? What are you doing? Like, and they felt it because I mean, it's, I don't think it's a secret that I've mentioned before that he, he's admitted he's still attracted to me as an adult, my dad. And now he's doing it to my friends and I'm like, the fucking, like these are my friends. I'm going to take that wheelchair swing around, around, around. So yeah, that was a moment where I was like, oh, my gosh, like did you have to do that?

39:07And because we all felt it. And so that was like, I'm just trying to kind of keep it cordial and not have a whole lot of conversation there. He's like, I'm glad you came and he was very kind. But I think again, he was just kind of toned up to the situation. I don't like it would be not even the word kind, it would be nice, right? Because kind is genuine, right? Well, I think he was trying to be genuine. I don't know. There's like, there's so much. And we've talked about the psychology with my dad. And like, there's a lot which we don't need to go into. There's, yeah. But basically, he was like, okay, I'll see you at the, the grave side. I'm like, awesome. So then we go there and there was just a lot of niceties and pleasantries. And I thought everything was fine. And then I get waived over to take a family picture with him and my sister and her family. And at the time, my sister and I had a rift having to do with my dad. And I'm not going to go into that story about why. But basically, I ended up going to yield that in front of everyone by my sister.

40:11We've since cleared it up and we both are on the same page now. There was a big misunderstanding. But that just added to the high end experience of being there at the funeral, getting screamed at. And I was actually just like you, super calm. I was like, I'm so sorry, you feel that way. Let me tell you what happened. Let me tell you my side of the story. And I was like, how am I not like breaking down right now? And looking back, I feel like I already had that mama bear energy building up in me with the pregnancy of like, no, I came here to face these people. I came here to pay respects to my grandma who I love. I came here to just walk in with my head held high and be like, I'm here. You could think what you want of me. I think it's a side is what it is, too. Because it shows that your nervous system is not getting spiked. Yeah, I get used to you. Well, I think I was in that high end state, but I was able to just like,

41:11and that's a weird dichotomy, right, of being in that fight or flight. But and because of that, the other motions kind of dissipate and fade, but you're able to hold that strength because you're in that survive mode versus like feeling comfortable enough to get emotional and cry and be like, you know, that's true. So did you cry afterwards after the whole experience? Did I, I think I was a little bit in shock after all of that and just kind of like, what just happened? So that's what I wanted to talk to you about after you leave and you're trying to process. You know, I end up having to tell a story to my brothers and my mom. And so I'm like, just reciting over and over again, what happened without feeling too emotionally attached to it and just being like, what the hell? Man, that was kind of weird. Yeah. Um, and you have to again sort through all of the conversations who was genuine, who genuinely didn't like you? Yeah.

42:11Who was purposely ignoring you or being a bitch and who was just so happy that you knew that it was fake? Yeah. Did you figure it out? No. I know me too. I'm like, still to this day. I'm like, I don't know for sure what was going on, but I guess whatever. Yeah. Until the next funeral, if I'm invited. Yeah. Exactly. So all that to say, even when you've been out of a cult for a decade, longer than a decade, anytime you have to go back and put yourself in that scenario, not only does your body have a physical reaction to it that you can't really control, like just walking into a Mormon church building and being like, oh, this feels uncomfortable. But also knowing like you're safe, you're safe, you're safe, you've done the work. And also imagine having to go back before you're ready, before you've really deconstructed, before you've found any sort of emotional safety or security or nervous system regulation

43:13and getting thrown back in. This is with both of us way after the fact and we're still having these emotions. And that's why I thought it was important to talk about this because I think people have the assumption that once you've been out for a couple of years, like just go back to the funeral. It's not that big of a deal, but it really is a big deal. And you should give it the respect that it deserves and the preparation that it deserves. And also the grace that you deserve as a human having human feelings and emotions and thoughts and reactions and just knowing that that's kind of part of the deal that you're going to have to work through some of this after. Yeah. But and I will say not to be like everybody should go force themselves into their uncomfortable environment to heal. That's not what I'm saying. But when I became, I guess to the version I am now, what we're working on right now that's kind of forcing me to go back into the cold Amanda's brain, it is really, really hard to go back to the trauma that I came from and to go back to the scared little Amanda that

44:16I used to be, but it's also forcing me to process everything that happened to me and to validate yes, it was that bad and that has been helping me heal like I feel like I'm on two times speed with healing, but that it's not easy like I've been crying a lot. It's not a comfortable thing. But after each time of like going through the crying stages, it brings me to a level of peace that I didn't have before. Yeah. Graduating in a weird way. I think part of it and right after I say this, we'll do some more questions. I think part of it though is being healed enough to the point where you know if you can or cannot handle going back because there's also a lot of maturity and understanding and awareness and being honest with yourself and saying, I don't think I can go to that funeral and be okay. And that's okay too. And checking in with yourself and checking in with a therapist or checking in with someone something, especially yourself and really taking inventory of where you're at and being

45:21like, do you think this is going to benefit you? Do you think you're going to feel strong going back to this? Do you think that getting that closure by seeing your loved one and giving that respect is going to help you in your journey? Or if the answer is no, if it's, I can't be in the same room as my abuser. I can't face the family who cut me off and is acting like I'm dead. That's okay too. That's a really big step in progress. It doesn't mean that you're not far long enough in your journey to be able to go back in. It means that you're far long enough to know that that's not for you. Yeah. And there's a time and a place too because when I was on a escape and pulling me, I think I was not ready, honestly, for what I was expected of of the show, and there was times where I was just a little 18-year-old and they would be sitting me in a chair, questioning me about the most traumatic experiences of my life for four hours. And then I would go home and I would stare at the ceiling for another four hours, like

46:22I had to just like, I think I was like trying to disassociate, like I was only trying to disassociate, disassociate, but I feel like now I'm in this stage where that actually would be productive for me to talk for four hours about it. Yeah. Okay. Let's take a few questions before we sign out here and go to the book signing. Yay. Your reactions remind me of Elizabeth Smart and her doc. Yes. You guys. Her episode for Channel Members is coming out tomorrow. Sorry to interrupt your comment. We'll get back to that. Okay. In her doc and YouTube, she is so straightforward with the facts. It leaves no room for misunderstanding and shows great healing. Yes. She's both the best. Thank you so much. Yeah. Great documentary. It's called Kidnapped. It's out right now. She wrote a book called Detours and we just interviewed her. So we're actually doing some early release for our Channel Members. If you want to join, it's like $4 a month or something. If you want to get the early release of that video going out, it's, is it going out tomorrow?

47:22Jonathan told me in the comments, either tomorrow or Wednesday. I think it's going out tomorrow and then going out to the public for everyone to view on Wednesday. So you can correct me if I'm wrong. But yes, Elizabeth was incredible. Such a good conversation. If you're not familiar with her, she was Kidnapped, Mormon, Kidnapped from her home when she was 14. It was National News, brought back nine months later and this guy was basically a cult leader who was like, you're my wife now, second wife now, force pulling me. Why is that always the case? Whenever a man starts a cult, he's like, and now it's time for the brides. Exactly. And then he says, but I don't want to do this. God made me. Oh my God, you're just listening to what God said. Yeah, is God's name your painter? That's how it always is. That could be said in the order to like the direction was the, can I say that? Yeah, the direction is the erection. Wait, that's actually really funny because it's true for those who don't know. It's called direction when you have an impression from God who you're supposed to marry.

48:26So that's actually really funny. We would say that in the order because we noticed that the higher up men were wearing, we're marrying all the pretty girls and like, so what you're only getting direction on the pretty girls. What? Okay. Any other questions? Jonathan, to Caitlin, make it. Hi, Caitlin, if you're here. My neighbor who moved away, I'll miss you. Hi. Okay, John, hi, John. Just tuning in, these girls are both amazing for helping people who come from high control religions. All right, there is the leader's son, you guys. Everybody clap. Hey. Oh, my gosh, in my brain, I almost said the one and only, the one only John, but the leader has over 300 kids. Yeah. The one and only. The one and only willing, willing, the only willing billing, the only girl about his dad. So we love you, John. Yes. Anybody else? I'm about to start EMDR. Amazing. Can Amanda talk about that experience? EMDR. Yeah. Okay.

49:26I have so much to say about that one, but I'll try to keep it short. For me, it helps so much to, and maybe you already know this, to bring something that's been bothering you, something that maybe you have something, maybe you're thinking of it right now, something that's a thought that keeps popping up in your brain and you don't know how to process it, bring that with you to your EMDR and that's going to be what you think about and they'll help walk you through it. Every time I've done it, it's been hard, but I also walk out with it. Basically, like, process. Yeah. So that helps so much with, and anyone you can't afford therapy, I know it's so hard sometimes to get therapy or even like the right therapist and figuring all of that out is a mess because I went through it too. Yeah. And I had help, so I can imagine if you don't have any help. Yeah. If you can't get EMDR, running is a form of EMDR too, and that's why sometimes you see people running marathons and they're crying, like, it's, it can be very emotional. It's a traumatic release. Yeah. But yeah, there's a form of it. But yeah, that's my advice on what to do with it, but don't be scared and just be as

50:31honest as you can with the problem that you're wanting to heal. I think the people who I've talked to who have done EMDR sometimes memories come up that are completely unrelated to what you went in for and it's basically a way to remove the logical brain and to resurface things that are bothering you on a deeper, excuse me, on a deeper level. And so it's a way to, don't you like hold things that vibrate, just kind of like, it connects you right and left. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, atmosphere. So it kind of, it brings up things that are buried deep that you can't logically access or at least as quickly and then it helps you process them. So it can, for some people, it can be extremely difficult and put you in a place like you have to know what you're getting into. But then ultimately, like Amanda said, it helps you release it to where it doesn't keep popping up in your brain, in your logical brain all the time.

51:33Yeah. Yes. Thank you for the super sticker. Appreciate you guys. Thanks for being here. Let's see, any plans to do a triple talk with Alissa and Amanda, yes. So I know that. I know that would be fun. I wonder how we would actually do that in our studio. We have more mics. But like, would we just, all three be sitting on the couch? We could go for four hours, the three of us, at least. I don't think the topic would be an issue. That's for sure. Yeah. Because we've already been having so many long conversations in the car, two and from Austin, going to hang out with David. I'm so excited to see you again. Every time I hang out with her, I'm like, what the words she's saying are so profound. Yeah. This needs to be in the Bible. She needs to write her own Bible, a second book. She did write a book, how to leave Mormonism, I think. Wait, that's the name of it, right? How to leave the Mormon church, I think. But yeah, I don't know. I know that they're definitely planning a collab at some point, but it would be kind of cool to do like a panel of us three.

52:33Tell us what you want us to talk about. Okay. Anybody? Caitlin, I love you. Thanks for joining. Caitlin, cheer. Come to the wine and work event with us tomorrow so that we can all to work together. Work. Worked, worked, worked, worked, worked. We've been doing that a lot too. It's been great. Oh, they're, I saw the same icon. So I was like, are you going to change the comment, babe, but it was a different comment. Sorry. Happy y'all going to shake your boots in Texas. Where did y'all take David? Here up Charlie's sagebrush. So were you the one who suggested that in the comments because I took a screenshot and was like, I need to remember this for next time. No, we just went to sixth street because we're like, this will just be easy instead of trying to figure out a specific place. Let's just walk down the street and then see which bar calls to us. And so we went in probably three or four. Yeah, it was fun. It's a dance. Yeah. And we went to Congee Restaurant. And then last night everyone just came here and we grilled and danced and sang karaoke.

53:34That's fantastic. Hi, I'm from New Mexico. Thank you for sharing all these stories. It really helps everyone to not feel alone. I'm so glad that that's the case. Brianna, I think Miss Brianna, thank you for sharing that. We do our best. We try to, when we have these conversations, while men has been here for over a month, we're like, oh, should we record that because I feel like that might be helpful. Yeah, I know. I've been taking a lot of notes recently and even been like, maybe I should make a whole, a whole like YouTube video on this specific topic because yeah, there's so much that goes into, I don't know, and half the time I'm talking to him, like, yeah, this would have been really good video. And speaking of, we went live on Amanda's channel yesterday. So if you're like, I need more of this because we're about to sign off. You can go to her channel at Amanda Ray Grant. Is it Amanda Ray Grant? At Amanda Ray Grant or just Amanda Ray? I actually think on YouTube, it's, it's the Amanda Ray. Okay. I mean, that's great. Oh, this one was getting cut. We also, Alyssa Grenfell posted videos of us getting down to the club.

54:36So if you want to see what that looks like and seven months pregnant me on a bar, you can go check that out on Instagram. It was so fun watching you're like rubbing your belly like, hey, the funny part was though random. I know because everyone's probably like, stop shaking the baby. He was asleep. The entire time I was dancing and when I would stop dancing, he would start kicking me. And so I'm like, you know what, mama, it's like, get back to it. All right. Well, I think that's about it. Unless Jonathan, there's anything else that you want to put up for us to address. We're going to go do this book signing with David Archie Letta, come hang out with us. If you're in Austin, we'll be there for a little bit and go check out the interview with David, go check out the live we did with the man on her channel. And if you want to join channel memberships, you can see Elizabeth smarts interview tomorrow, early access. If not, no worries. Just being here is such a great support to you. Anyway, the interact with the post, the algorithm supports the channel. You'll be seeing that on Wednesday. So thank you so much. Give us a thumbs up. Thank you, Jennifer, like and subscribe, all the things.

55:40And I think that's it. Is that it? Okay. Love you guys. Thanks for being here. Until next time, follow your Heist excitement. Be conscious and be well.