Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic with Jon Seid... - When the Drinking Problem Doesn't Look Like a Problem: Heidi Mills on the Signs Alcohol Might Be an Issue

0:00We say we believe every person is made in God's image, but belief becomes powerful when it becomes action. Through this moment matters, we are responding to hunger, displacement, and fragile health systems with compassion and courage. Not someday, now. Your generosity becomes medicine. It becomes food. It becomes hope. Right now, your gift can help a family in need. Visit giveumcmission.org-future and join the ministry, because this moment and every life matters. Hello, hello, and welcome to the confessions of a Christian alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Cytle. This is your home for real stories, radical vulnerability,

1:02and remarkable comebacks in the end. This podcast is a place for the desperate, the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk. But it's also a place of hope and healing. I know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic, not the other way around. Today, I've found sobriety after decades of struggling, but more importantly than finding sobriety, I've found Jesus. My prayer is that as I interview people just like you and just like me, along with professionals in the fields of trauma, faith, and addiction recovery, you will find the peace that is available to you through Christ on the other side of whatever you're going through and whatever addiction that might be. Because let's face it, we're all addicted to something. So welcome, let's get radically vulnerable as we explore what it looks like to be on this journey of messy sanctification.

2:04We'll be right back after this. Hey, if you're struggling with addictions and dependency, take your first step towards freedom today. Pick up a copy of the life-free, recovery Bible. Millions of people have chosen this Bible to help them take courageous steps towards the true source of recovery. Jesus Christ, encounter God's grace, his love and redemption on the pages of the life recovery Bible, which is packed with recovery resources, including devotionals, people profiles, study notes, and more. It also looks at the 12 steps to the lens of scripture, which is the best way to approach them. Learn more at www.life-recoverybible.com and pick up a copy today. Are you in an abusive relationship? I don't say that just for shock value, but our guest today wasn't quite the type that you might think.

3:09It wasn't with another human, but it was with alcohol. And she wrote a post last year that I found so moving. And it was about being an abusive relationship with alcohol and finally giving it up. And I think the metaphor is a good one. You know, and I talk a little bit about this in my book that alcohol is one of those things that promises us so much and just doesn't deliver. Right? And if you again, think about that metaphor. And again, that's not to minimize anyone who's been in an abusive, physical relationship. I've a sister who was and it was awful. But I think when you look at alcohol, something that just takes and takes and takes and lies and lies and lies and literally does do physical harm to our bodies while promising us something better. I mean, I think the metaphor fits.

4:12And so Heidi Mills knows exactly what that is like. And so I found her via a substack and she had written this really great post. And probably I think around March or April of 2025. And it was called the glass half empty leaving my most abusive relationship. A non-dramatic breakup with alcohol. Which is interesting because I think she didn't necessarily have a rock bottom moment. Although there was this up and down relationship with alcohol throughout her life. And so in this nearly 4,000 word post, which I've linked in the show notes. And I'm going to read parts of it during the interview as well. I think she details and chronicles what it was like to go through this relationship. And then just finally realize, I'm done. Look, I don't need this.

5:14And I'm excited for you to hear her story today. Heidi is a certified relationship and life coach. She has a business centered around sole care. Coaching called reclaim. And she works especially with middle aged women on what it looks like to reclaim their lives. And so I'm excited to talk to her today and to bring you her story. Because I think a lot of you will be able to relate. And especially, I think those of you who like me for so long just had this kind of yo-yo back and forth, and back and forth, and back and forth, and so to hear what that kind of, that kind of, to hear Heidi talk about how like for so long she just quieted the whispers. Like there was this ongoing whisper in the back of her head that was like just give this up. Just move on.

6:14You don't need this. And she just would work to quiet that. There's talks of relationship trauma in this episode. She talks about an emotional affair that she had to walk through recording her husband. And finally, I think you'll hear in Heidi's story how the drinking culture has permeated the church more than we realized. And that was a reality for me. And I think a reality for a lot of you that when it comes to drinking in the church, so many people kind of swung the pendulum and so Heidi will talk about how she was in a, she was part of a ministry that said, hey, you can drink as long as you don't tell anyone about it. And then moving to Texas where beer and barbecue was just interchangeable. And so I think it's a reminder a little bit of how we need to reframe some of that conversation

7:20in the church today. First, if you are looking for some resources for your own recovery, why don't you head on over to VeritasRecovery.org VeritasRecovery.org. That is the new nonprofit ministry that I have started. And in the resources section, there is a download that includes a slew of books and places into the podcast that you can listen to. And I would be, it's free. It's free. And so I'd be honored if you took advantage of that. This is the ministry that I've started to help. Christians, especially but not exclusively, who fight against doing what they don't want to do. Check it out VeritasRecovery.org. So with that said, let's talk to Heidi Mills. Well, Heidi, thank you so much for joining the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic Podcast. I am excited to have you here. I just continue to be amazed at how God brings people like you

8:21across my path. And so I'm honored that you would share your story with me and with this audience. So thank you so much for being here. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. And so I honestly, you know, you're one of the guests that I want to focus on your story. And I kind of joke that like we'll chase rabbits where rabbits want to be chased. And we'll kind of go where the Lord leads us. But I would just like to open it up because you had this really long, really detailed sub-sac post, which we will link in the show notes in the description. But for those who haven't read that, I'd love for you to just walk us through your journey with realizing, hey, I have a relationship with alcohol that I need to change. Yeah. It's kind of hard to know where to start. But that article was my coming out, so to speak,

9:24like coming out publicly. I don't think I had really even told my friends, hey, I'm done with this. Obviously, my husband knew because he'd been walking alongside me. But that article was me reflecting on my relationship with alcohol. And the idea that I had in my mind that I think a lot of us feel this way, that we need to hit rock bottom to make a change, that it needs to be bad enough. And I really couldn't see that in my story. And so I just kept giving alcohol the benefit of the doubt, much like much like I've done before with toxic friends. And so that's how I kind of equated it in the alcohol in the article is that this was a toxic friend that I let stay in my life for way too long. Yeah. But alcohol came into my life when I was a teenager. And it was very, I was very irresponsible and pretty normal like teenage drinking, you know, I we drank to get drunk. That was the goal. Yeah, you don't really have many other goals. Yeah.

10:31You're not enjoying a good glass of wine. So, you know, I lived in a small, that's not super small, but a small Texas town where like that was pretty much what we did in high school. And I took it so far that I ended up, I ended up in at a ranch, a Mormon run ranch in Utah, where they put us through the 12 steps. But it wasn't a choice. And I think the only good thing I got out of that was, is it step number two where you are, you know, like, oh, there's a higher power. And I, yeah, so that's pretty much the only thing I took out of that, that experience. So, interesting though, I'm curious. So, everyone around you was noticing it as well back then. Well, no, just my parents. Okay. It was, it was not just alcohol. So there were drugs as well. Yeah. And this was pretty normal in the sphere that I was in, but I think my parents were like, this is, you know, this is a problem. Right. So I went and lived on this ranch and they forced us

11:34through the 12 steps. And I came home, not an ounce changed on the inside. I played the game really well. I made it through the rest of my high school and then moved out of the house and kind of went full bore into all of that again until, until I got pregnant at 19. And that was a very clear stopping point for me. And then after my son was born is when I recommitted my life to Jesus. And that was a very transformational experience. Like, it was not just a, I set a prayer and something was different. Like, I felt completely different. And that was it. I was thinking, cool. I just was set free, healed and delivered. And that's not a problem for me anymore. I, in my 20s, I met my husband. We got married. We were part of a ministry that said it was okay to drink as long as it wasn't public. But we didn't really drink very much in 20s. I was pregnant

12:41and nursing for 10 years. So that was just kind of not part of my life, you know. Right. And then somehow in my 30s, we end up back in Texas and alcohols everywhere. It doesn't matter if you're with the church or not, with the churches at every function, barbecue. And it just kind of creeps back into my life as a pretty normal, a normal part of socializing. And I was coming with this idea of, well, I can be responsible with it now. You know, I've had you, when you got back from the 12 step program, the ranch, um, had you said, okay, I'm not, I'm not going to drink again. Not at all. Okay. No. It was a very forced experience. And so when you said not, when you say not about meaning, you made the commitment that you wouldn't at all or or not, I didn't make the commitment that I wouldn't know. I just, I played the game. I went through the thing that I had to

13:42go through. I finished the program. There was no transformational change internally because I hadn't chosen it. Right. Yeah. So like you just can't make people do something. Which I, which we can pause there for a second. I think it's really important. I mean, I think, you know, as people are listening to this, you know, I think my one of, I have a lot of prayers for you for listening to this. Um, but one of my prayers is that it would be, um, it would be something that is really done from the inside out is not from the outside in. And because, you know, and, and, and I've told the story before, but my wife, um, you know, my wife could have, in a sense, forced me into a treatment program or, or whatnot. But she made the conscious decision that she's like, I'm not going to do that. Like, and, and she chose the harder life in the immediate because she knew that, that if and when, um, that, that change happened from the inside out, then it was going to be lasting.

14:49Yeah. Um, and so I think that's important for people to hear. And I think your story already echoes, echoes some of that. Um, I had a sister who went to a, to a Christian, you know, teen challenge program in Louisiana. We're living in Wisconsin. She was drugs and knuckle and sex and just everything, right? And ironically, just like you, she comes back within months. She's pregnant. And it's like, you know, just, just back to that to everything. So, yeah. And you and I both know, like the alcohol isn't the thing. The drugs are not the thing. And so when you're just, when you're just behavior modification, changing the substance and your relationship to it without doing the deeper work, it just doesn't matter. Yeah. You can change the environment and things will look great. You know what I mean? Like in that environment where you're on a ranch or you're in a, in a, in a program and stuff and like, and you're not dealing with the, with a crap of life, like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Exactly. Okay. So you're in your 30s. So in my 30s,

15:56it just when you say it's sort of creeping back in by the way, like what did that, what, what did that define creeping back in? I wish I could tell you. I really don't have very clear. It wasn't a defining moment because again, I didn't have in my mind, like you can never touch this again. I didn't have that. I had a, yeah, whatever was going on with you when you were young, was fixed. Shabbat dabbat that away. And you know, now, now as an adult, you can be responsible. If I am consistent in my ability to think that I'm above things, like that's just all throughout my story whenever I'm writing it. I'm like, oh, yeah, I thought that wasn't going to touch me. Yeah. So yeah, I don't, I don't really know. It just, it just was a part of the culture. You know, we just, we live in wine country. So it's, it was everywhere. It was very social. It wasn't, it's not like I was like drinking bottles of wine, you know, I'd be out with friends and have a

17:00glass or two. And then like in my late 30s, this uptick happened. And that was almost imperceptible to where it was occasional to all of the sudden. It was nightly. And there was this transition that I now needed to wind down for my day and have a glass of wine. And you create this habit. And your, your brain relies on it. So I was in a really stressful job. And, and that was my way coping with the stress, which I thought it was going to help with the stress. And that up to it continued for a couple years. But in the article, I also mentioned that there were other things going on that I wasn't aware of at the time. And this is very public like my husband and I talk about this on our podcast and other places, but he was involved in an emotional affair. And so my nervous system was picking up on the incongruencies, which was very uncomfortable. And the way

18:04that I would silence that was just have a drink. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so that uptick was, I mean, I really haven't gotten honest enough to like super dig into how much was going on. But I mean, I was like one or two glasses of wine on a regular basis. And which I think in by the way, like and you know, for people that are listening, you know, what I want you to hear there is the, is the, it's not about the amount, right? In that, some people may listen to this and they wanted to glasses a night. God, I'd kill for, I'd kill to go down to one or two glasses a night, right? And two things that are important, A, our bodies are all different, right? So your one or two glasses, maybe three to four to someone else, right? And, and two, I would say the comparison game keeps us so trapped. And three, it's, it's about the place it occupies in our lives.

19:09Absolutely. And so if it's, I don't care if it's wine, I don't care if it's Oreos, I don't care if it's porn, right? If you need that little, that thing in order to get through X or to stop Y, that's a problem. Yeah. And so I, I love that you're saying that. It's like, it got to the point and I interviewed someone in my book who said the same thing. She's like, I wasn't getting wasted every night. Yeah. And so I think into the world, quote unquote, you know, it's like, you're not getting wasted. Like, what's what are you talking about? Yeah. What's the problem? And I, and the thing that you said about comparison is we can do this everywhere in our lives. Yeah. You look around and you can always find somebody who's doing it worse. You know, I like to say there's only one worst alcoholic in the world. And like the race for numbers two through 25 is like not a race you want to be in. Yeah. So you can always look around and see somebody who really has a problem and kind of make yourself feel better about why you don't

20:14have a problem. But I think for me, um, it wasn't yet, that didn't happen yet, but there would just became like this, the internal nudge of this is out of alignment for you. Yes. And it, you know, there are definitely stories and times where I had way too much to drink. Like that's, that's in there too. It just wasn't, wasn't a regular occurrence. Um, and all of this was very socially acceptable. None of my drinking was not outside of the norm at all. Yeah. And, and this is meanwhile being very involved in church. Right. And so I think, so you, you start, like what, what was in a sense, your conscience telling you what was the Holy Spirit starting to whisper to you in, in this period? I wish I would have listened to any whispers in that period. I didn't. So what happened was in 2019, the infidelity in my marriage blew up. It got exposed. It,

21:15it blew up in the whole community. It was a big, a big deal. And my physical body was feeling the stress of the previous years and then the trauma of that. And so I go to a doctor because basically I'm driving down the street and my GPS tells me to turn left and I can't remember what direction left is. That's, and I'm, I think I'm having a stroke, you know, I'm like, I don't know what's happening. So I go to the doctor and she's like, you're really stressed. Your adrenals are not working. Um, and so I had to do a pretty intense healing regimen and alcohol just was not on the list of approved items. So it was, I didn't listen to a whisper. I waited until everything totally fell apart, blew up crash and burn. And the doctor said, in no way, shape or form, do you get to have any alcohol for a year? Interesting. And so this, the physical symptoms were bad enough

22:16that I was able to hear that even though it sounded really hard. Before that point, I think I'd done a whole 30, you know, yeah. And just waited for the 30 days to like it have a glass of wine. And I'd always feel better without it and my skin would look better and then write it when the 30 days was up there. I'd go back to having a glass of wine. So thinking about a year without it and how intertwined it was with my relationships, I was, you know, that, that seemed really daunting, but it was a non-negotiable. There was so much healing that had to happen. So unpack that a little bit. I think people listening to this, you know, I think there's, there's a variety of reasons you may take a break from alcohol. And I think a popular one nowadays is health, right? And so I don't, I don't disparage that. Although I think I go back to what you said is, I mean, use that, if you want, if you need to use that to kick it off great, but then make sure you do the, the work underneath. But explain at least in your understanding, okay, you're, you're

23:21in a sense having a nervous breakdown. Why, why is it bad to have alcohol while you're trying to heal? Like what's your understanding there? We'll be right back after this. God's grace, his love and redemption on the pages of the Life Recovery Bible, which is packed with recovery resources, including devotionals, people profiles, study notes, and more. It also looks at the 12 steps to the lens of scripture, which is the best way to approach them. Learn more at www.liferecoverybible.com and pick up a copy today. It started with a knock at the door of a small clinic. A grandmother stood there holding her

24:24grandson. He was burning with fever. The nearest hospital was hours away and she had no way to get there. Through this moment matters, a ministry of global ministries and umcor. That clinic had medicine. It had trained staff. It had hope. The boy received treatment that day. The grandmother left with tears in her eyes and relief in her heart. This is what happens when the church refuses to look away. When we decide that every life carries sacred work, your gift today helps strengthen health systems, support migrants, fight hunger, and build peace and communities under strain. Visit giveumcmission.org slash future and be part of the story. God is still writing because this moment matters. Yeah, I'm not a doctor, so I don't have the best understanding, but the what was happening in my body was basically my adrenals had been overfiring for so long

25:30that they'd completely shut down. My cortisol had been overfiring for so long. It was tamed, so I had like zero cortisol. My adrenals weren't firing. When that happens, your adrenals need to keep working. So what they do is they strip from other parts of your body. So they'll strip your gut lining and strip your DHA. And it basically causes this whole host of symptoms. That is just miserable. And a lot of it is regulated in the liver. And so you don't want to be taxing the liver with alcohol. And also you so alcohol, you know, strips the gut lining as well. So I like it was just kind of like there's no room for this right now. Right. You need to rebuild your body. And that is the opposite. But even even still even hearing that I wasn't like, okay, this is gone forever. It was like, okay, one year. I can do that. Right. Right. Yeah.

26:31And meanwhile, like a year, a year, a year and a half of that time period, I'm going through deep, deep healing, like doing trauma work and all of that. My husband and I are doing a recovery work. It's very, very difficult. So there's all of the digging deep happening, going into my childhood and all the stuff, all the things, you know, been there. Yeah. It was gutting. It was a gutting experience that I'm so grateful for. And I would say I'm a completely different human now after that. And so a year, a year and a half goes by, we're kind of moving to a place of like peace and stability in our relationship. I'm feeling better physically. So I'm like, okay, social drinking can come back. Yeah. So then, so then between 2022 and 2024, I returned to drinking socially. Now that whole time

27:33that I was taking a break and I'm doing all this deep work, I mean, there's no way to ignore the things that you were turning to. So I had to completely rewire my nervous system and I had to understand what I was doing before to try to regulate my nervous system. And so I was I was aware that I'd been using alcohol to do that. I've been using alcohol to help me in social situations, you know, to kind of help me loosen up or whatever we think it does. I had a bunch of stories, a bunch of stories built around what I thought it did for me. And so it's just shocking to me to be sitting here and walking through the story and going, why did I ever go back? You know, and I think it's a really good point. And there's a section even in in in my book where I talk a little bit about this, but it's from a spiritual perspective, right? And I think part of there is this weird thing. And it is when I say this weird thing, like it is a known thing, right? It's this

28:34cognitive dissonance where where we can know something, we can believe something, and we cannot do something, right? And and and yet like tell us all this time, right? I mean, I think that's what Paul's yeah, but that's what Paul's calling out, right? They didn't call it cognitive dissonance then, but but like it is so you can you can do that and you can do the work. You can go to trauma therapy. You can do all this stuff. And no, hey, I was using this thing to cope. And yet then still eventually get to a place where you say, I can control this. I can control it now. And I think that's where I was like, okay, well, now I know. Now I know. And I'll just do it differently. And I can I can moderate this. And I won't be using it for that reason. It won't be like a coping. It's just going to be an addition to my life for enhanced social situations or whatever the whatever the story is, you know, somewhere in that time frame, I can't remember exactly where,

29:38but I started seeing posts about sober living and alcohol free living. They were showing up in my Instagram feed and I did not want to see them. I was like, scroll, scroll. Not interested. Not interested. But then I'm like, looking in some of them are people I know. And they're telling their stories. And I didn't even know they had a problem. And then there's all these other women that are probably 10 years older than me and I'm looking at their photos and I'm like, gosh, they look great. They're really healthy. They're having fun. And so I kind of allowed slowly. It was just like that's very slow process for me where I just started listening and paying attention and allowing another perspective in. And I think that somewhere in there is when I came across to Annie Grace from this naked mind. And talk about cognitive dissonance. Her information is so confronting. Yeah. So confronting. It's just science. Yep. So if you don't know who

30:39Annie Grace is, I mean, that's a great point. Like she really approaches this from a science, from a science-backed thing about your health, really. And what it does to your brain and your system. And it's totally without shame, which I think I really appreciate the conversation these days around alcohol. Because for me, just, and I know that being an alcohol like in that kind of language resonates for some people and it is their path out. But for me, it didn't resonate. I would not have found myself going to an AA meeting. We're calling myself an alcoholic or anything like that. So the way that she approaches it is just to evaluate your relationship with alcohol, you know, is it what you want it to be? And also here's some scientific information. And so one of the first things I heard from her was that the good feelings that you get from alcohol last about 18 minutes. And that's about the time that we all reach for another drink. And so I just started paying attention to my own patterns during that time when I went back

31:44to social drinking after taking a long break. And I'd have a drink and I'd notice when I wanted another one and I'd look at the clock and it would be like 18 to 20 minutes after I'd had my drink. And I was like, oh, wow, I am not in control of this thing. This, you know, this is, this is a thing that is happening outside of my choices. And I think I'm making these choices, but I'm not really. So that was really confronting. And also when I went back to the social drinking, the way it impacted my body was just horrible. So for that eight, for that 18 minutes of good feelings, I would feel terrible for a week. Yeah. You know, at least for days on end, like it wasn't just the next day. And it didn't have to be a lot of alcohol. It's just the way it was hitting my body was completely different than before. I think has something to do with age or whatever we're not going to get into that. But whatever the reason it should, like the recovery,

32:46if my workouts would be terrible, I'd feel awful sluggish, all the things for days, for what, for 18 minutes, it just stopped making sense. So there was just this really slow process of me going, why would I do that? But then I've got all these strong stories built about what it does for me. And, you know, how it enhances my life. And it makes celebrations more fun. And alcohol for me is so tied into relationships and girls trips and laughter and connection. It's this real positive stuff. Right. And so for me, it just wasn't okay. I'm just not going to do this at all. I had to figure out what does it look like if I don't. And so what, you know, you have all those stories, you've told yourself, right, about what it does for you. How did you get to the point of, you have this, actually, this beautiful, vivid story you tell in the beginning of your piece.

33:50But how do you get to the point where you finally overcome that cognitive dissonance? What does that look like? Yeah. So it's very slow. Again, there were other, that's the only fact I can remember right now, the 18-minute one, that there were other ones that came into my, my feed and I'm paying attention and I'm listening and I'm kind of comparing with what I think and seeing how it doesn't add up, you know, that's that cognitive dissonance where you're like, wait, the belief I have built around this is not in line with my experience. So something's wrong. And I kind of just really backed off where I wasn't drinking very much at all. And I would go out with friends, stay sober, go out with friends, maybe have a drink, kind of pay attention to my patterns. That's where the story started coming up. Like that's the continued drinking was a gift to me because it helped me unravel the lies where you're in a social situation and you think, oh, I need to have the drink for this to be fun. And then you shop and go, wait, why? When I was a kid, I didn't need alcohol to

34:56have fun. Like, where did that switch where we now need something else to have fun? Yeah, think about the the most fun you've had in your life and they probably happen in your younger year, right? Like just your sense of enjoyment is just, you know, it's like, you're not drinking back then. Nope. So by for some reason we become adults and we think this is what makes situations fun. So, so then fast track to last July. So July of 2024, it's a friends birthday party. We're out at a beautiful place in the hill country here in Texas and the sun is setting. We're on a patio and this place is known for its wine and wood fired pizzas like it's such a such a vibe. And I have a glass of wine and I am immediately reaching poor for like a second half glass without even thinking. And internally I have this like this check, you know, just a pause internally. And I'm thinking, why did I do that? And I don't know, it was just like this lingering

36:03lingering feeling so clear like this is not an alignment for you. And I woke up that I didn't get drunk. I didn't, I didn't, I don't even remember getting buzzed. Like I just, I woke up the next day still with that like lingering feeling and I just thought, okay, I'm going to take another long break. I still wasn't ready to say I'm done with this completely. I'm just going to take another long break. So I take another long break. I end up at a retreat in September with a bunch of other women and I had a really, really encountering time with God. And it was just so clear like just being done. And so I just, I left that retreat and I was like, I'm just done. I'm not, I'm not going to drink anymore, probably ever again. And that was nine months ago. What did you come back and tell your husband about that decision? How do you explain that to him? How have you explained it to others?

37:04You know, my husband and I did it really have a super clear conversation about this along the way. I was doing, this was all internal. Yeah. So I'm trying to remember when I told him like, I think I'm done with that. It was probably after that retreat in September. And then this was really hard. In January of this year, we went away to kind of plan for the year. And we had planned to have a conversation because one thing I forgot to tell you was, this is in the article, but I didn't say it. When we were early on in recovery, one of the other reasons I really had to put alcohol in the shelf was not just my health, but it, you know, it lowers your inhibitions, which means I was really easily triggered. And I would, I would lash out at him like, my anger was justified. I'm not trying to say that being angry was wrong because I don't believe that, but had I not had the alcohol, I wouldn't have wielded it the way that I did. Right. Right. And so it was really clear that this had no place in our recovery.

38:09And in January of this year, he was able to tell me like how that impacted him. And that was such a hard conversation, but really beautiful to have, but also to hear like, I hate that I let that 18 minutes. Yeah. That I wanted to feel better. Open this door for, you know, the harm that you experienced from me. And so I think, you know, there's this, I want to read something that you wrote because I think even even as you're telling this story, you know, I think I know, I was going to say I'm hoping, but I know there's someone listening who will see themselves in this story. And, and yet you have this, you have this this paragraph right towards the end of your of your article that I want to read and says, I can't help but look back and see what I once ignored. Those times I drove home more, more impaired than I wanted to admit, laughing it off

39:12the next day, imagining myself as the next headline in some homeschool moms gone wild highlight real. But what was I laughing at? The fact that I made it home that I'd gotten away with it, that I could ignore the consequences because I wasn't as bad as other people. I see it now the way I let alcohol blur reality. And so I think what is so important about your story is your drinking may not look like drunk every night, you know, you being the one cheating on your husband or being out until all, you know, like whatever. And yet you still cross the I call crossing the Rubicon, right? You still cross those Rubikons. You still made those compromises. And I think what I hope people realize from your story is that when you're, again, no matter how much you're drinking, if you are searing your conscience, right? And it is telling you,

40:13don't do this and you're doing it. Even if you're not getting drunk, that is going to manifest itself in your life in other ways, right? Yeah. And I mean, it's hilarious because this is the work that I do with women is the soul reclamation, like reclaiming themselves and, you know, I'm tying from all of the stories and all of this, like I have that coaching training and I wasn't using it on myself. Right? Isn't that funny? Yeah. And then I start thinking, oh, well, when you're living out of alignment, like you're saying, when you're out of alignment with what your soul is telling you to do, it is exhausting. You're going to create burnout. Exactly, right? So I want to go back to the title of your piece because I think it's, it's really interesting. And maybe you, I want to give you a chance to explain it. You said, leaving my most, you know, a glass half empty, leaving my most abusive relationship. How, in a sense, then how were you, you described this as an abusive relationship?

41:20What did, how can you describe it like that? Like what is it about the relationship that was abusive? Because I think some people would be like, well, I don't see any bruises in a sense. Right? Like I, there's no visible bruises. What do you mean is an abusive relationship? Explain that. So I equate it to the toxic friend. And I don't know if you've ever had one of these, but I have. And they come into your life and they are just amazing. Like they love you so well. They make life better. It's fun. And then certain things happen along the way. And you keep wondering why you feel worse when they've left. You know, you're, you're making up excuses for them, even though they're hurting you. They're causing a lot of harm. But you're kind of defending them and saying, Oh, no, no, it's not them. It's probably me. So that's kind of the metaphor that I was using with alcohol. But for me, I think I just, I kept regurgitating stories that

42:20it enhanced my life when it really was taking so much more than it was giving. And that's how it was a toxic or abusive relationship is it was taking so much more of me. And it was like when you're living like that or your conscience is telling you to do something different and you're, you're not that. That is such a discrepancy within your soul. Like you just, you can't be living the fullness of who you are that way at all. So me giving up alcohol was again like a bit of a soul reclamation for me so that I can be who I was created to be fully without anything, doling my senses or changing how I interact or whatever it is that I think most of the stories that I believed were marketing really good marketing. It's funny. I was just going to ask you. That's literally was my next question. Where did those stories come from for you? Yeah, which pissed me off when

43:23I realized it. And I was thinking, Oh, these are not stories I created. These are stories I ingested from really good marketing and marketers are selling us poison and we are defending it. We defend alcohol by we create this persona of an alcoholic person. Yes. And in that way, we defend this substance that is very toxic to our body. It's highly addictive. It doesn't matter who you are. Like don't talk to me about addictive personality. Like have you ever drank more than you wanted to? Have you ever noticed, yeah, have you ever noticed a time in your life where you're drinking increased and you're not an addictive person. So, so yeah, that part really pissed me off when I realized that it was just programming and that's probably made me so angry because of my high control religion background as well. I'm like, gosh, another place where people were putting stories into my mind. You're not going to have that. Right. Right. So,

44:27that was really kind of like the end point for me where I was like, I'm not I'm not drinking the school ate anymore. And I know people who listen to this podcast have heard me say this before, but I think it's important to reiterate case you're listening for the first time, but you know, you talked about we create this persona of what an alcoholic is, right? I mean, I spend a whole chapter on that because it's so important is that when you think alcoholic you being whoever, you know, there's no doubt that there's a certain person. There's an image that comes to mind and guess what? It's not you. It's not you. It's like it never is you. It's the mom who's hiding Vodka in the laundry room. You know, it's the mom getting pulled over for DUIs. Yeah. Yeah, not being able to you know, walk a straight line, but I'm not doing that. You know, I have it under control. Like the amount of times in that article that I try to let everybody know that I would say I have this under control. I have this under control. If you have to be saying that so much to yourself, do you really, you know? And yeah, that's that that that's death protests too much, right? Yeah.

45:34Yeah. And then the other thing that that really got me was just the amount of mental energy and mental gymnastics that it was taking up, whether to drink to not drink, how much to drink, where to drink, what to drink? You know, it's just it was exhausting. And I think to that point as well, what we talked about an alcoholic looking like is, you know, I joke that I use the term in my book, you know, Confessions of a Christian alcoholic and yet I fully admit I take an entire chapter to say that's not the best term to use, but I joke that Confessions of a of a Christian with alcohol use disorder is not a catchy title, not a catchy, but but but really what I want to do is really and I'm not trying to like, you know, I'm not here like Oprah, like you're an alcoholic, you're an alcoholic, you know, but the definition changed, right? And it has changed in the DSM 5, which is the the manual of of addiction in the healthcare field. And it's no longer binary thing.

46:37It's no longer are you an alcoholic or not? Are you drinking too much or not? It's it now is alcohol use disorder and the things that you outlined, the questions are intentionally like, have you ever drank more in the last, you know, I think it's like 12 months? Have you ever drank more than you wanted to than you set out to? And then like, you answered that yes and one other question yes, and they're like, Hey, you're on the spectrum. And and that scares people. And I guess I'm like, I hope it does. Right? It should. And I think that's where we keep ourselves stuck is that picture of the alcoholic or the person who really has a problem. It's never going to be us. We're never going to be the one in that photo. Um, we're just going to be the ones who had a little bit more than we wanted to. Yeah. And that's exactly. We'll be right back after this. Hey, if you're struggling with addictions and dependency, take your first step towards freedom today. Pick up a copy of the Life Recovery Bible. Millions of people have chosen this Bible to

47:41help them take courageous steps towards the true source of recovery. Jesus Christ, encounter God's grace, his love and redemption on the pages of the Life Recovery Bible, which is packed with recovery resources, including devotionals, people profiles, study notes, and more. It also looks at the 12 steps to the lens of scripture, which is the best way to approach them. Learn more at www.liferecoverybible.com and pick up a copy today. This month on the Salvation Army's weekly podcast, Words of Life, we're wrapping up a series where we've been focused on Christian writers and authors of all kinds. And beginning March 11th, we'll start sharing a testimony where you'll hear from members of a Salvation Army band right after they returned home from a powerful trip and ministry opportunity in South Africa. One of the last impacts that I have of the entire trip was hearing

48:44the kids sing back to us. There's a chorus that says, what shall I render to Jehovah for he has done so much for me? And to hear kids who have been abandoned, say that with every bit of their spirit back to God, I will never forget that. Listen to Words of Life wherever you get your podcasts or visit wordsoflifepodcast.org. When it comes to, like, what was the hardest, you know, nothing for some people, I asked this question, like, wow, there was withdrawals, it was, you know, well, but what was the hardest part of making the decision in saying, I'm done. Like, I'm done. This is it for good. I'm done. What was the hardest part in the immediate aftermath of that for you? It's still there and it's the reframing of my life and finding, you know, I don't know if you

49:49want to go here on this conversation, but in the midst of all of this that happened over the last few years is also the deconstruction and reconstruction of my faith. And so shifting communities and friends and activities and trying to build a new way, what does that look like? I'm still in the midst of it. I get pockets of it where, you know, I meet these women and we have an amazing time and alcohols never in it, never in the picture. But it's just kind of like the rebuilding of the life after and knowing that it's going to be okay if it's different. I'm still, I'm still kind of figuring that out. And that was the hardest part of the fear of losing friendships, the fear of losing connection of community. You know, like, when you come out publicly with an article like this, I already feel people like pulling back a little bit and I don't know if that's, you know, I didn't know you had a problem or I don't really want to be thinking about this or

50:50you know, what is that? What do you think about me? I don't know what they're, what they're feeling. But when you, you know, you start coming out publicly like, I don't drink alcohol and I think it's toxic. Right. Right. It's funny, guys. I do think there are people who are convicted, right? And and listen, my goal, I tell people like, I'm not out here saying that you can't be a Christian drink that no one should ever like, if that is, you know, like, if you can, great. And you knew it responsibly and you don't feel the health effects or you don't think that whatever. But it is surprising to me. I mean, I remember when I first first wrote about this June of 24, when I first, like you came out in an article and and I remember this guy sent me a message and a guy who I had seen like drunk during an election night, you know, on Facebook, you know,

51:55being like, there's no such thing as a Christian alcoholic. You just need more Jesus and kind of all this stuff. And I was like, well, ironically, yes, I did need more Jesus. My priorities were not in line. But here's a guy who I've seen publicly drunk. And, you know, it was just obvious to me that he was uncomfortable with the idea. And I think there are a lot of people like that, right? And I don't, yeah, I don't want to make people like care about uncomfortable. Right. Well, that's what I'm going to say is I hope, I hope they, I hope they're not uncomfortable in the sense because they feel like I'm judging them. Yeah. But, but if my life naturally calls you to something better, praise God, because it's not the work of me. I can tell you that, right? And, and, and so I hope that, you know, maybe there are some people around you and this would be my encouragement to people listening is like, there may be people around you who are like, that's, you

52:58know, I, it makes someone comfortable. And I'd be like, you know what, the Lord has blessed me with a lot of new and different things. Yeah. And so that's what I'm in the midst of is that transition where there is new and it is starting and it is beautiful and good, but it's not fully there. And so you asked what was like, what was the, I don't know how you worded it, maybe the scariest thing that that was it, community, relational family. Well, my husband doesn't drink at all. That's great. So that makes it really easy. Yeah. Is that, is that something he never did or is that like in support? Oh, no, he was never much of a drinker. If anything, he would have half a beer. I think he doesn't have the right enzymes to metabolize alcohol. So it makes him feel really, really bad. And then I know I have another friend who's allergic to alcohol and I'm like, that's amazing.

53:59It's like me being allergic to gluten, I would never touch it. I don't touch it, you know. Yeah, right. But that shifted to when that uptick did happen in my life, then he needed to be the responsible one. So it did shift to that. And he wasn't able to tell me that until very recently, like maybe a few weeks ago. So there is still so much that's being unpacked and unraveled. My daughter follows me on Substack and she listened to that article because you can listen to it. I know it's long, but there's a really lovely AI bot that reads it to you. And she said, I didn't even know you had a problem. And I was like, yeah, I mean, I did and I didn't. You know, right. My problem looked a little different than probably what you think a problem looks like. Yeah. And I think, in a sense, that is a great summation of your story, which is you did have a problem. Yeah. Like you had a drinking problem. And I think some people like, you know,

55:00and I don't think you're not running away from that. You wrote an article about it. And yet your drinking problem doesn't look like my drinking problem. And it doesn't look like the person who's listening to this nodding their head or shaking their head. It doesn't look like their drinking problem. But when anything is misordered, it is disordered. And in your story is, it was misordered. It was misordered. What would be your final encouragement to someone who is listening to this and they're seeing themselves in your story? I really like the way that Annie Grace approaches this, where she just encourages you to start thinking about your relationship with alcohol, don't change anything about what you're doing. Just start paying attention. And be aware, like be mindful about your drinking, be mindful about your patterns and start noticing what you notice. And as you do that, those stories are going to come up. And that cognitive dissonance

56:00is going to come up. And you get to confront, okay, I really feel like I need a drink right now. Why? Why do I feel like I need that? And is that true? Yeah. You know, okay, I need, I need a stress will. Is that true? Does alcohol relieve your stress or does it increase your cortisol after? Yeah. So that would be my encouragement. And I think the final question is you kind of broke just a little bit, but how would you say your relationship? What is your relationship with Jesus looked like since quitting? How did that affect? How did that go into it? Like, like, where, how would you describe that? It's really interesting and probably a whole another podcast. Sure. My, my sub-stack is called in the waiting room because I am very much in the spiritual waiting room. But one thing that has never shifted for me is my connection to Jesus. And that stayed very strong. The rest of my faith is in flux and on the chopping block a lot of the time. So I don't know if that's answering your question. But in September,

57:03I was not at a Christian retreat. I was just at a retreat. And I very much encountered God with a bunch of women who were not Christian. And that was the marker for me. It's like it was a very clear reconnection for me that that brought clarity in this realm of my life. So connection to Jesus has stayed strong. Yeah. And I would say, you know, there's a lot that Jesus can work through meaning, meaning like, you know, I've had, I've had the Holy Spirit prompt me in, you know, while listening to country music. I mean, it's, you know, and I'm not saying it's not the country music that did that. It was, you know, um, he just, I don't think he cares. I think that boxes get to get blown up everywhere. What's that? And got boxes get to get blown up everywhere. And God is a lot bigger than the boxes that we put in. So any blew me up, that's for sure. Um, and he's been

58:04faithful to put me back together. And I pray that same thing, you know, for people listening, I pray for you, I pray for everyone, you know, um, Heidi, if people want to read that great sub-stack, um, I'll have a link to the specific article. But where can they go to find more about what you're writing about? Yeah. Sub-stack, I have two publications on there. So one is in the waiting room. And then the other one is my solecare 75, which is just a free community experience that I have for women. And explain that a little bit. The solecare 75. It's just okay. It's kind of the antithesis of the 75 hard. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. Yeah. Yeah. I did it. I did it once. I don't think I didn't quite make it 75. Yeah. But that was like one of my last big attempts to stop drinking. Yeah. Yeah. Like we do like 30. Yeah. Like we do. So solecare 75 is like the complete opposite. And it's just slowing down. And we do one thing every week. There's like, there's one focus for the week. And the whole process is just to help us slow down, reconnect and move forward in a different

59:09way. It's everything that I learned recovering from burnout. Well, great. Well, Heidi, thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for being radically vulnerable and honest. And I know that there are people listening to this will help. And so I really, I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. 18 minutes. I think that stat is so interesting. 18 minutes. That's how long the benefits of alcohol last. And then we start feeling inside effects. Right. And so then 18 minutes later, we try to drink again. And I think that that that just blew me away. And I know that some of you may have read any graces this naked mind, which is not necessarily coming from well, it's not coming from. I don't think like a Christian faith-based perspective. Me mean that's not that's not the that's not kind of the basis that it uses to try to convince you about what

1:00:10alcohol is doing to you comes more from a science-backed approach. But I love some of those facts, right? Because I think they are important. They like and I think it just awakens you even more so to what the devil tries to do to so many of us with alcohol, something that gives us 18 minutes of quote unquote benefit. And so many of us will throw so much away and reorient our lives around it. And I think it's just an awakening and awakening fact. I really appreciate it, Heidi's honesty. You can go check her out. I've concluded her information in the show notes and appreciate just her vulnerability. Definely, in a sense quote unquote, come clean. That's kind of what she called it and said. So Heidi, thank you. Thank you for your radical vulnerability. If you are looking for more, you can go to christianocaholic.com, christianocaholic.com has my book. It does have a link to

1:01:16that nonprofit ministry that I've started now for people like me, people like you, Veritas recovery. And so you can find the link there or just go to VeritasRecovery.org. Thinkful as always to lifeaudio and lifeaudio.com for making this podcast possible. You can go over there and check out as well some other great episodes. We will see you here again next week. In times like these, we all need a word of encouragement from pastor and bestselling author Max Lucato comes the Max Lucato encouraging word podcast with over 40 years of ministry and more than 145 million books sold in 50 languages. Max shares the greatest story ever told. The living savior who brings hope for a lifetime through rich biblical insight, heartfelt storytelling. You'll be reminded that God is always near, always for you and always in you. Listen to the Max Lucato encouraging word podcast where hope meets your day. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts. Jesus said this is the will of my father and everyone who beholds the sun and believes in him

1:02:17will have eternal life. Let's pray. Jesus saved me. Forgive me for all my sins. I will follow you, Jesus. If you would like prayer, you're welcome to call 267-367-Love. 267-367-L-O-V-E.