Coinbase’s Everything Exchange: Agentic Finance, Stablecoins, and Tokenization with CEO Brian Armstrong

0:00The minimum fee typically on a debit or credit card transactions about 30 cent fee flat plus the additional percentage. Already, it doesn't really work well for anything under a dollar. Certainly, it doesn't make sense to pay 30 cents to send a one cent payment. And I believe the stats we last saw on this are that about 76% of the agente commerce transactions we're seeing are under 30 cents. We don't want the AIs to be unbanked. You know, if we want to bank the AIs, they deserve financial services as well. The AI agents themselves are going to have to have their own accounts. And so we've made some simple tools where with a single command, you just prompt, you paste it into your AI agent, it can now have its own financial account. So it'll be interesting to see how the agente economy evolves. There'll be more agents than humans and then not to use the future. It kind of stands to reason that the agente economy will be bigger than the human economy at some point and not to just the future as well. What's going on? What's going on? What's going on? What's going on? So Dan, no fires. We are joined by Brian Armstrong, the co-founder and CEO of Coinbase. One of the world's most important and early is crypto companies. It has also been quite aggressive at adopting AI.

1:00Brian is also the co-founder of new limit, which is a anti-aging and longevity company doing really interesting things in biology, including certain types of high throughput screening to understand aging, different uses of AI, et cetera. Brian is one of the most forward thinking people I know on different aspects of science, technology, art, the world, et cetera. So it's very exciting to have this conversation with him. And we'll be talking about everything from what's happening in the crypto world, what's happening in AI, to what's happening in biology, to how different individuals can have an impact over time. So it's a very fun conversation. Brian, thank you so much for joining us at Enterprise. It's a pleasure to see you. Yeah, good to see you, Alon. So I was thinking we could talk about a few different topics. I think there's a bunch of stuff relevant to Coinbase and crypto and, you know, agentic finance and things like that. But also, you started a company called New Limit, which is focused on longevity and aging and biotechnology. So I think it'd be great just to sort of comfort both as part of this conversation. Yeah. And they always start with Coinbase. So Coinbase has been making some really big moves.

2:01You've been flooding this concept of that. Everything exchange, as you've been building out what I think is a new global payments layer. Could you tell us, you know, at a high level, what were some of the directions of the company, and some of the errors you're most excited about right now? Yeah, so we're at a really exciting time in Coinbase's history because, on the one hand, every asset class is coming on chain. It's now possible to trade everything in one place with good liquidity and good cross margin. And so for markets and trading and that out there, it's stocks and commodities and crypto and derivatives, perpetual futures. Like it's all coming to one place where traders can do everything in one spot, including prediction markets too. And they can do that in more countries now to give them the regulatory clarity that's emerging, which we can talk about if you want. So the everything's changes is kind of our bread and butter, our core business. The next big area that's emerging is stablecoin payments, which have just been growing like crazy, even when Bitcoin prices are down, stablecoin payments just keep growing. And so we're helping companies all over the world integrate stablecoin payments, which are fast and cheap and global. You can send money at the speed of information, right?

3:03It's kind of like under one second, under one cent US to move money anywhere in the world. And then the third big one is something I know you talk a lot about on this podcast, which is how is AI changing? Because AI is changing everything. And so it's obviously going to change financial services too. And so we call this agenteic finance or AI-fi. And we're building this into Coinbase in a number of different ways. The first way is that people who have their existing financial account, they're going to want to have an AI advisor, kind of like how wealthy people are able to get access to these investment visors. But everybody should have access to them now. And they can help teach you about building the right portfolio and dollar cost averaging, tax loss harvesting, and all these kind of things. And if the market dips five or 10% or 15% leg into this kind of portfolio over time and try to save money on fees and earn yield while it's sitting in cash. You can just talk to it like a human and it'll do all these things for you. At least that's the vision. And it's getting better and better. So we've launched an advisor in the Coinbase product. The next thing is that the AI agents themselves are going to have to have their own accounts.

4:04And so we're on a mission to kind of like go out there. We don't want the AI's to be unbanked. We want to bank the AI's. They deserve financial services as well. And so we've made some simple tools where with a single command, you just prompt. You paste it into your AI agent. It can now have its own financial account. And it's using a self-custodial wallet and crypto rails. So there's not like a KYC process. You don't have like our AI agents don't have a government ID. They can't walk into like a bank branch, at least not yet without their humanoid robots companion. And so now any AI agent can have its own financial account to do payments to pay for goods. And it is a tight to account of somebody who's organically based. In other words, this sort of like a subsidiary account is an entirely new thing. Like how do you think about the hierarchy of that? Yeah. So we're doing it both ways actually just because I think there's going to be demand for both use cases. So it's going to be possible to create a separate agenteic account with segregated funds on Coinbase and then your future. And you can give your agent access to just that to do trading and payments on your behalf.

5:06That's kind of linked to your identity as human. We're also going to provide self-custodial wallets to any AI agent out there that wants to hold a balance and stablecoin or it could actually raise money. It could issue a token. And so what's fascinating is that today we often talk to these agents and it's sort of like one person to one agent and they go get some work done. But they often get stuck. They get stuck. There's like, oh, here's a pay walk. And you put in your credit card. I need to spin up these AWS resources or you wanted me to book this hotel for you. But here's the web page. Can you go put in your credit card, that kind of thing? And in the future, I think you're going to want to have these agents have their own spend accounts, kind of like having a personal assistant or an employee who has their own spend account. It's going to need probably like a stablecoin back credit card for backward compatibility. But we're seeing a lot of agentic payment now flow over these new protocols like X4 or 2, which is one that we incubated at Coinbase that we actually put into the Linux foundation. So Google and Cloudflare and AWS a bunch of people are working with us on that now.

6:06And so that's been really cool. And we put together like this little fun website called egentic.market where people can go see the stats of how many payments are flowing in this new economy and see all the different services. So we're helping a lot of businesses get enabled into the agentic economy. Like, is your store ready to accept agents as customers? We have a product called Coinbase Business that helps companies accept stablecoin payments. And that's good for humans who want to pay with stablecoin payments, but it's also good for agents. And they kind of get both out of the box. You mentioned things like stablecoin or crypto backed credit cards. How do you think about what proportion of the future of all you and the agentic future is going to be crypto versus more standardized finance rails? Yeah, so what's interesting is a lot of the agentic commerce that's happening, these are pretty small transaction sizes, sometimes just a few cents. And as you probably know, the minimum fee typically on a debit or credit card transactions about 30, is like a 30 cent fee flat plus the additional percentage. So arguably it doesn't really work well for anything

7:06under a dollar, certainly anything under 30, like it doesn't make sense to pay 30 cents to send a one cent payment. And I believe the stats we last saw in this are that about 76% of the agentic commerce transactions we're seeing are under 30 cents. What's our interactions are those? Or what's happening at that low price point? So a lot of it is it's a gathering information. And so you could think of it like it's venture firms doing research, compiling from paywall data or it's recruiters who need to scrape data from LinkedIn. It's oftentimes it's actually agents talking to other agents that are specialized in some way and getting source data from them, almost like a tool call that's happening. And on that agentic.market website, we have a list of the top service providers that are doing like search and financial data. And I think what would be interesting is in the future you'll see actually other agents in the market that become specialized. Like the frontier models are trained

8:07to be quite good at good generalists, right? And they're kind of good at a lot of things. And we're seeing instances where smaller models that are open-weight models can actually be fine-tuned or through reinforcement learning. They can become they can outperform the frontier models on a specialized task within the company, right? Like I'm sure you've talked a lot to startups about this kind of thing, but it's like a compliance review queue. Or so if you train it on 100,000 compliance cases within Coinbase proprietary data, a small open-weight model can actually outperform a frontier model. And so I think you're going to see in this marketplace a bunch of specialist agents. It might be like, hey, this agent is just really good at ordering you pizza if that's what you want. Or this agent is like a really incredible designer. And that's all it's been trained on is like tons of proprietary Figma data or something like that. So it'll be interesting to see how the agentec economy evolves, but it's probably like common wisdom at this point amongst your listeners, but there'll be more agents than humans in the not-so-just-in-future. It kind of stands to reason that the agentec economy will be bigger

9:08than the human economy at some point in the not-so-just-in-future as well. Yeah, it's interesting. I think one of the safety and start-up is the concern that there'll be a resource aggregation by AI, and then that'll be used in a purely a society or things like that. It's always interesting to think through like what are some of the implications of this scale of some of these things and how they work. I don't share that concern strongly in just saying that's something that comes up from time to time. Yeah, well, just actually on that, it's funny. I've heard people like Elon say that they think there won't be money in the future, right? And I mean, actually I agree with Elon on most things, but that one I was like, okay, I think I know what he means. He's basically saying, at some point, you start to measure things in energy and mass and those become the scarce resource. I think in the limit case, like he has a point, but the thing is there's gonna be scarcity for a long time, even if the cost of goods and services really falls, like we have price deflation because robots and AI start to just make commodities and food and housing very cheap. That could happen. The government printing might also create

10:08a bunch of inflationary pressure, but there's always still gonna be scarcity of certain things, like land, especially usable land in various ways, energy, like chips. There's not gonna die since fears are gonna be expensive. I think pretty far into the future. So I think we're still gonna need a medium of exchange and it's really cool to see that has AI emerges, crypto rails are just kind of a nice compliment for all that stuff to finally work. Like crypto was, I think crypto was really, really good for humans and it's gonna be essential for AI. Yeah, people I feel have been talking about this for a while too, particularly I think in the really AI community, it overlaps so much with the crypto community, right, in terms of, you'd see, you know, computer science majors coming out of the MIT and depending on the year that they graduated, they would go into crypto and two years later, they're all going into AI and it was roughly the same people and turns people really into certain chips of math or other things. So there's interesting bifurcation,

11:08I feel to people's careers is based on when they graduated in terms of whether they ended up doing crypto, you know, in 2020 or whatever it was versus AI in 2022. Yeah, well, I'm reminded of that meme. If you see that meme, it says, Porque de los DOS. You can do both. They're gonna intersect here. Yeah, it seems like they just might. What, I mean, the other thing you folks have really been focused on is the use of AI within point base itself. And can you talk about how some of those obviously coding and other things, but what do you think are some of the more interesting projects that you all have done internally? Yeah, so like a lot of companies, we started off with the basics. You know, we got some coding tools. We got it hooked up into our various data repositories. We've been using it for a long time on machine learning for risk prevention, fraud prevention, customer support increase, started going through AI. So that was all like good table stakes stuff. And then the things that we've started to do recently, where we're sort of pushing the boundaries here, I think one of them is that, you know,

12:10we basically want to get to as close as we can and actually achieve recursive self improvement, right? And what does that mean in various ways? Like, so it means that you have a brain for the company. If that can be a sub, a whole bunch of subsets, by the way, you can have a brain for each team, you can have a brain for each service, like repository within the company, you can have a brain for each individual, which by the way, I believe they should be able to take with them when they leave, when they pay, so we're creating some good policies on that. But what, so let's say you have like a service, like a GitHub repository, some backend service that's running. And today we have engineers spinning up agents to make changes to that. What we're just now launching and seeing recently is like every time that agent comes into make a change to that service, it's actually ingesting the brain for the team working on it and for that repository. And so what is that brain? It's basically, it's a history of all the incidents that have ever happened with that service, all of the financial controls that have to be enforced with that.

13:11Every AB test that we've ever run on that, of course, like the full GitHub history of a pull request that were accepted or rejected. And so the people running that team, any time can kind of go in there and look at it. Today it's just marked, it's like marked on files, right? It sounds kind of simple at the end of the day. But the getting in this all hooked up, so, okay, so let's say you ask the agent, hey, I want to make a change to this service. It ingests the brain, it makes that change. And then as a human, you go to review it and you're like, ah, it missed something, okay? Now the simple thing someone might do in that moment is, okay, go make a manual edit to fix it and then ship it. But the key step that we're trying to really enforce now in our software factory or software development life cycle is when you go to make that change and edit the agent's thinking, that context has to go back into the brain so that you not only fix it in this case, but in all future cases going forward. And then you basically what you start to see is like the accept rate for one-shot at PRs or that kind of thing. It just starts to tick up over time and you've now got like a recursive self improvement system.

14:14So that's one of the big ideas we've been working on recently and just getting our own internal agent harness, which we call Toshi, just integrated with all these tools. Like it can now, you know, it can now make calls out to external vendors and pay using the agentic finance economy like over these X4 or 2 protocols. If you want to edit the brain as you're making a change to that PR and it goes back into the brain, putting that into the harness, asking it to sort of like, okay, you know, like actually just earlier today, I was making a plan for this like relatively complex feature. What's kind of amazing, it's now even allowing people like me to see you to get back in their ship features. But I asked one of the, you know, high end expensive models, okay, go make a plan for how this feature might be implemented, break it down into three phases, each phase has 10 different pieces that need to get built. And I was like, okay, go, go execute phase one, go spin up 10 separate agents to go execute each of those pieces in parallel. And by the way, you know, recommend the right agent to use because they might be cheaper models. And so it spun up a bunch of open source,

15:15it spun up a bunch of GROC. And it's, and it just like two minutes before I hopped on this podcast, it just pinked me and was like, by the way, all 10 of those things from phase one are now done and ready for you to review. So anyway, we're starting to get to this place where it's kind of addictive actually, because in the past, I kept, every time I'd have these like ideas or bugs, I find, and I'm just like pinging the team all day long like, hey, can we do this? Can we do this? And now instead of like pinging the team in Slack, I can basically tag an agent in Slack with that comment or drop it into our internal harness. And instead of bugging the team and asking to do something, I just send them a PR for review and it's already done. Like, and that's a magical moment that I just like, it's very addictive. Yeah, I feel like the people were best at adopting those who aren't day to day engineers. And I know you had a long background for working as an engineer here, or maybe other places, obviously, you're all being stark when it is. But I found that many folks who do best at this, who are non-technical also, almost true to like a video game. And you're like leveling up in terms of your capability

16:16sad and how you're going to do things. Sort of these recursive looks, you start building for yourself and everything else. And so I think it's, I think it's fascinating to watch that adoption. How do you think that impacts, you know, how companies are set up in the future? In other words, some people make the argument that the average company size over time should get much smaller. It could be a startup, it could be existing companies, et cetera. Simply because you're able to harness so much of the intelligence, so much of this proactivity or, you know, ability for people to do so much. Divisually, do you think that's true? Do you think that's the direction things are heading? Like is there a timeline where some of the company is like 10 people or whatever? Do you think there'll always be these sort of larger scale organizations? Well, productivity is definitely increasing, right? So that's slightly different though than saying the average company size will be smaller. It's kind of like just saying tasks are being automated or eliminated. People are not being eliminated. I think tasks are being eliminated. And so if you take a company,

17:17like any sort of company today, Coinbase or others that exist today, it's not that, I don't think it's like we're gonna shrink down to headcount to 10 people or something like that. I think that the existing people we have are gonna be able to just get much more done and the pace of everything will accelerate. Now it's also true you're gonna see some companies that are two people or five people or whatever, and they're able to do a lot more than what we would have historically thought was possible. And that's also true. So it's increasing the velocity of like the existing team and making things ship faster, things automated. So basically you're getting more scale ability off people and so if you have a cost basis relative to revenue, then you suddenly have this ability to dramatically more with that same group of people, which means to some extent your margins should start to rise over time. If you're effectively growing revenue faster than your group team, all of a sudden people may still grow them at the same pace. Yeah, yeah, that's super interesting. And then I wonder if it's worth spending a little bit of time as well on the everything exchange.

18:19I just think some of the things you're doing there are fascinating. There's perps, there's prediction markets, there's all these really interesting directions. What proportion of coinbase either volume or revenue is sort of those other isolated areas now? As I had in crypto. Yeah, well, we actually shared in our recent earnings deck, which are those little numbers I'm probably allowed to talk about, but actually 88% of our revenue is from non Bitcoin trading at this point. So that's an interesting stat. I think it's funny, because if you look at our stock price, it does trade fairly correlated with the price of Bitcoin, but I love Bitcoin. I think it's going to be around forever. It's digital gold. It's like sound money for everybody in the world. I think it's amazing, but I also think all these other things are like crypto is updating every aspect of the financial system. So we just announced our tokenized stocks product, which is only available outside the US right now. Unfortunately, but we're working with the S2C and others to get it a path to do it in the US. But it's the first truly tokenized stock product

19:21that's not as synthetic or derivative or some debt instrument. It's actually a security, and it's one to one represented by the actual security held in custody. And so this is like broadly a trend called tokenization, like stablecoins were the first major use case of this with a token that represents $1 to $1 in a bank counter or US treasury. Now we're seeing it with stocks, which is really exciting. It's going to, there's like something like four billion people in the world who don't have access to any brokerage or US investment account. So they don't have any ability to invest in coinbase, Nvidia, Apple, whatever. And so much like Tether was very successful at XUS because a lot of people want to dollar denominated accounts. There's like four billion people who want access to you, hike while you investments. They don't have that today. So we'll do the tokenized stock piece. And then I think you just go on down the list, like private credit and treasuries and bank deposits, like everything's going to get tokenized. And it's just going to mean that financial services is going to have modern, modern rails to run on.

20:21So of course, these can all be traded on the everything exchange. They can be sent back and forth. Like if you want a gift to share of stock to your nephew or something like that, you can just send it to their wallet. You don't have to like go through some complex stock transfer process that's antiquated. It's like money can now move at the speed of information, just like a WhatsApp message and crypto is updating all those rails. And it's pretty amazing. It's basically broadening and modernizing the financial system, but in a very broad way. It includes to your point eventually bonds. It includes this subset of stocks and includes all sorts of things that before had much more friction in terms of using that or purchasing that minute, opens it up for the world. And there were counter versions of this China and other places where if something was a set on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange, sometimes these funds would almost be set up that people could buy proportions of to be able to participate in some stocks that were listed in other countries. So it'd be interesting to watch how sort of global capital flows change as this thing's getting bigger and bigger. To your point, it feels like the stable coins in Tether were the first version of that with USD.

21:23So it's kind of fascinating. I remember actually seven, eight years ago, I invested in a company called Harbor that was trying to tokenize real estate. I think that was a little bit too far ahead. Yeah, I think that'll happen too. I think you were early, but too early, but right. Yeah, and that one. Yeah, so it's kind of fascinating to watch this. But how do you think about prediction markets? So a lot of the use cases I've mentioned in the past seem to have roughly consolidated around sports and a few other areas. Obviously, there's things in politics. Do you have a view on where in the long run prediction markets have the biggest footprint? Well, I'm very excited about prediction markets. They're growing super fast inside the Coinbase app. I think we shared in our last earnings call within months of launching it, it hit like a $100 million run rate. It's growing really nice, like over 100% quarter of a quarter, something like that. I'd have to go look at the exact number again. But so it's true that sports has been a part of it. I think that it's much bigger than that, though. And that's great. That's a form of entertainment. We should celebrate that.

22:23I think that it actually has much broader implications, though, from a societal point of view that people maybe haven't fully appreciated. So like, political elections are something that have already happened in prediction markets. But let's say that you want to try to understand what policies should be implemented from a government point of view. You could actually say, all right, if we were to implement this policy, a policy, what would the unemployment rate be within one year, two years, three years? And then a prediction market could form on that. It could help inform what policies out there. It could allow, I think it could also ask people, the big questions in life. Is there a God? Were we designed by evolution or intelligent design? Or like, some people would call these more like opinion markets. It's not that there's ever going to be like a resolution date where we definitely know for sure on some of this stuff. Or if we did, it'd be very far in the future, in hard to imagine. But if you ask somebody a difficult question, and then there's events that are always unfolding in the world,

23:25which might shift, like, maybe 60% of the population believes X, but a new scientific paper comes out or a new terrorist attack happens, or like, who knows what? And then it shifts from 60% to 80%. People could still make bets on this. It's kind of like, when you invest in the stocks, there's not some resolution date of the stock where it's done and you get your payout from the video. You're just betting on, is it going to do better or worse in the future? And I think you could imagine a whole other category, for instance, of prediction markets for like the big life questions and things like that. It's, we're just, we're just scratching the surface. The other thing that you've been working on is new limit, which is, I think, really fascinating when great founders do an act two. And you're doing an act run, we'll simultaneously do an act two. So how does you think about starting a company while running a public company? Yeah. Yeah, okay, so this is a really interesting topic, because, you know, like you, I'm interested in lots of different ideas. I think that's part of the benefit of being an investor, by the way, is that, you know,

24:25you just get to talk to lots of smart people about a million. So it's very intellectually stimulating. I don't know, maybe the downside of it is a little bit like, you don't ever feel like you've got, you're all in on one thing, and you're, you know, in the arena sometimes, and you might be sitting there sometimes from the sidelines saying, ah, I know exactly what they should be doing. Why don't they just do this? And then, so if you're the CEO, you actually get to decide these things for better or worse. So anyway, long way of saying, I like being a builder or like an entrepreneur. I'm probably better as an entrepreneur than I am as an investor. Some of my investments are a little bit more like, wow, that'd be so cool if that happened, but once in a while, someone has to remind me, you do realize the point of investing is to make money, Brian. Okay, so anyway, I got a grasp. Okay, so basically Coinbase went public in 2021. We were, you know, we were very profitable. Like, it felt like 10 year journey. Okay, do I want to do something different? Do I have another thing? Or am I just at the beginning of this? And I realized, I'm just at the beginning of the journey with Coinbase. I think our mission of increasing economic freedom is just, it's like we're just getting started about half of 1% of global GDP is running on crypto.

25:26We've got a lot of jobs not finished, right? But I do want to have the ability to try some other ideas maybe and help incubate some companies or give them off the ground, whether I run it or not. And what I did was I sat down at some point and I was like, what are the big technology trends that I'm excited about? And I think by the way, if you make some money and software, you kind of have an obligation to like put it into hard tech and help some of the bigger things that might advance society, which are tend to be more capital intensive. And I was a little bit inspired by E-Line when these kind of things with PayPal. So I sat around with some of my friends and we were like, okay, what are some of the big trends? It's like it's space, it's AI, it's fusion energy, brain machine interfaces. I was like, there's good teams working on those. I don't have a strong thesis about what I would do that might be different. And when you're coming up with an idea, you want it to be something that, you know, you're like, this needs to happen in the world. But also, there's not like but for me, and maybe it wouldn't happen that quickly. Like you want to do something that you think you uniquely add value. And I didn't see like that many great teams working on longevity. I thought a lot of it was like kind of snake oil.

26:27I mean, you came from a bio-backer. And I mean, I actually, I cornered you and I was like, what's going on with this space? Like what, and you're like, oh, all the, all the sciences, like a little bit bogus. And like, you know, people have tried these things for a long time, like, you know, like caloric restriction or whatever we found a bunch of ways to make mice live longer and it doesn't work in humans, okay? So I was like, all right, well, let's host this dinner. And see if we can invite some of our smartest for success CEOs, scientists. And you know, you attended, I think one of these dinners, which I really appreciate you inviting some people. And we kind of just went around the room and we asked all of them, what's the most exciting thing on the horizon from a bio point of view that you think is high potential and underfunded today? And people had all kinds of ideas, but one of them they came back with was this epigenetic or programming idea, which some labs had seen early results with like Shinu Yamanaka's lab. And it was kind of showing how you could reprogram cells to restore function they had when they were younger. In that case, they were changing the type of the cell, but we didn't want to do that. And through a series of these dinners, I basically kind of went down this rabbit hole and I started to like, sometimes you just can't get

27:29something out of your mind and you just need to keep reading more and more about it and thinking about the implications. It's kind of what happened to me with Bitcoin in 2010 or 2011. And I started to feel about epigenetic reprogramming kind of how I did about Bitcoin at that time, where I just couldn't stop thinking about it for like three months. And when that happens, you kind of want to hold on to that moment of inspiration or motivation and like try to do something with it. So before it fades, because it's perishable. And so through a series of these dinners, it happened to find the right group of people that came together which turned out to be Jacob Kimmel who's now the CEO of New Limit, Blake Bires, one of the other co-founders, Greg Johnson who co-founded the company. And I put some initial money in, committed that, helped them with some of the company building part of it, but the science was like totally new to me. And I was basically just a sponge of knowledge trying to soak that up as much as I could. And so anyway, long story short, the science progressed faster than I thought. We've got a lab now in South San Francisco about 50 or 60 people running these large scale. It starts with AI as with all things these days.

28:29You can test millions of hypotheses about what sets of transcription factors, which are these proteins that could reprogram different cell types. It's a massive search space. So we're using AI for that. We've built the leading frontier model for epigenetic reprogramming. That recommends the next set of experiments that we should run in our lab, which are these large pooled screens. And we'd run those at the scale, as big a scale as we can. But it's like moving atoms and liquids in a lab, not just software. And so we do these large pooled screens to see if we can get phenotypic hits for compounds that might be possible to reprogram these cells. The best ones of those we then run through functional assays, which are typically animal models. And those are a little more expensive, a little slower. And the best ones of those we run through human trials. And so the exciting thing is we've now got, we've demonstrated successful reprogramming of at least one human cell type. In these humanized mouse models, we're now testing that in human primates, nonhuman primates. And then the first phase one clinical trial would be launching next year. And there'll be, I don't know, three to 10 other drug candidates

29:31coming off this platform in the coming years. So that's been an incredible journey just for me to learn about what it takes to try to spin up another company, try to see where I can be helpful, where I don't be humble about the things I don't know. And yeah, I mean, I want to make sure that I'm focused on Coinbase. That is my full time job. I'm basically just an investor slash board member at new limit. But I think it's fun and intellectually stimulating to try to create these companies that can advance the world. It's hard enough to get any one company to work. So I probably tried like 10 different ideas before Coinbase started to really work, right? And then I, you want to make sure you don't try to go do multiple things too early. Like the distraction can be really dangerous. It's arguably irresponsible to try to go do it. But there are some people, I think, you're one of these people I think you've managed to help incubate a lot of different companies at this point. Joe Lawnsdale has done this, Sam Altman has done this, Palmer Lucky has now a handful of companies like with Aribor, where, you know, of course Elon is sort of like the most famous example of this.

30:32And so yeah, I think there's a blurry line between, like on the CEO of one company and like, I'm a pure investor. In some sense, you're both capital allocators at a certain size of company, you know, you're basically just allocating budgets and capital. There's a bit more to it than that. But I think having like a small handful of things you're trying to do and you don't want to get overwhelmed where if like a couple of these things have a problem at the same time, you're just going to not be sleeping and probably ignoring your family and stuff like that, which is not balanced and healthy. But you also, if you're just doing one thing forever and you have a potential to help incubate more in the world, then you're just limiting your potential. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think more and more founders are winking up to your realization and your actions in terms of once you hit us for scale or point of things just have a skate velocity that are working this enormous leverage, you know, sometimes you're doing criminal things. And I think Daniel, I could be another good example about what's been doing very interesting things for you across the country. Yeah, he's made that successful transition to incubating more companies over time.

31:33And yeah, figuring out where he can plug into help. Some capital, but it's really his time is probably the most valuable part. Has NewVamet announced where it's starting or what indication area is it's starting with in terms of what is hoping to impact biologically or for a patient centric perspective? Yeah, it has. It's actually on the website, there's new limit dot com. You can check out their pdics so that we've published the roadmap there. So the first three cell types that we've started running our platform against. The first is liver cells or hepatocytes. The second would be vascular cells and the third would be immunological cells for your immune system, T cells, most specifically. So, you know, we're following a pattern that's kind of similar to the GLP ones like ozampic and all these things, which is, you know, initially in drug design or drug search, you're going after an indication which has like a high unmet medical need.

32:33It's typically, sometimes it's a smaller market and that's just how drugs are developed because you go after things where people have no better options. So for instance, like with our liver program, the initial phase one clinical trial will be in people with alcohol liver disease or alcoholic liver disease, ALD. And today they don't really have any other options other than like a liver transplant and most of them don't have that in time. So I think the survivability of it within 12 months is like once your diagnosis is very low. So we'll do a phase one in that and that alone would be like a pretty large market. Sadly, there are a lot of people in that situation. I think we estimated that, yeah, like just that, if that drug alone works in ALD, it might be worth $20 billion or something. But the goal here is not just to make a liver drug for, you know, alcohol damage. It's to build, to make a drug ultimately that healthy people, like if you're 40 and you want to have a liver that's like your 20 or your immune system

33:34or your vasculature system, or eventually, you know, your brain, your muscles, all these different cell types, your skin, that's a big one, right? That's probably a trillion dollar market right there if you can get your skin rejuvenated. But the idea is that over time, you'd be able to take like a cocktail of these therapies or they would target probably different cell types with slightly different payloads, but they would all have the same theme of reprogramming your cells to restore function they had when they were younger. And most of the diseases that take us out are all correlated with age. Like when you're in your 20s and you get some air and cancerous cell or a little bit of damage to your liver or whatever, your body recovers from it. Because, and then as you age, they lose this function. And so most of the diseases take us out they're all highly correlated with age. And so instead of kind of going after each disease like the symptoms of it, we're sort of trying to go for the meta problem of, well, how do we just restore the function your cells have when you're younger? And maybe that would be a way to take a bite of a lot of these major diseases attack the root cause of it. This goes back to the Moneca factors that you mentioned where they were able to change that imprint for both age

34:36as well as cell type. And you're saying just focus on the age component of it. So you're reversing the potency of the cell that has more regenerative capabilities, like younger cells or tissues with general way able to regenerate better than older tissues, right? You see that with healing or injuries or other things like that. Somebody's in an accident on their own versus your big thing. Get better and much faster. So it's really fascinating stuff. So I think you're this really unique and wonderful mix of somebody who's really grounded and pragmatic, but we also think big and goes after these giant shifts or trends. What are you most excited about over the next five years? Either for Coinbase or New Limit or in general, like in the world, you know? Yeah, well, I'm always thinking about this, you know, on my free time and my weekends, I'm always thinking about what are the most important trends? What is technology making available now that wasn't available for? What do I want the future to look like? How can I help shape that, create that for civilizational progress? And so I think it's good for more people to do that,

35:36just as an aside, it's not exactly what you asked, but I think that everybody should try to contribute in some way to civilizational progress and think about what they could build. Because that's actually really hard. It's easy to be a critic. It's easy to poke holes. What other people are doing or to be an activist or whatever, it's kind of a common thing amongst a certain generation. I think it's better to try to be a builder and you're gonna fall flat in your face and you'll get an appreciation for how hard it is to contribute sometimes, maybe more empathy, but it's actually much more fulfilling if you helped build something in the world that benefited a lot of people. So anyway, to answer your question directly, I mean, my main focus is gonna be on agentech finance, right? Like that's what's happening at Coinbase. I think, you know, and then stablecoin payments at everything changed. Like crypto is really only powering about half of 1% of global GDP right now. There's maybe about 700 million people in the world who have used crypto or hold crypto, but not all of them use it every month, which might be more like in the 50 to $100 million, 50 to $100 million people range.

36:36And so we need to get that to a billion or more. And like just that's how we're gonna truly update the financial system. We can do that with humans, we can do it with agents. That's gonna be a big focus. If you, and then of course like new limit, but I think if you wanna talk about like frontier ideas that I've sort of been contemplating, I mean, one idea I've been contemplating a little bit is around cognitive enhancement. And there, you know, there's been these things people have realized like if you, I think in development of children, like if you give them enough folic acid and like certain nutrients like that in certain countries, it actually raises IQ, like they just, they develop better. And there might be, I might host a dinner on this at some point of just, you know, what are the various ways someone could target therapies, whether in adults, children, embryos, whatever, to try to just level the playing field a little bit of the baseline sort of cognition and IQ that people are born with or could be born with. I think that that's another one of these big meta problems. I haven't found a great thesis about how to exactly tackle that, but if somebody has one, let me know.

37:38Yes, it brings us to things. Basically, how do you increase the collective intelligence of humanity? Yeah, because I mean, there's the biological form of that and then there's like the digital array I form of that. Exactly. I really, we're in a race right now. Like AI is getting smarter and smarter. I think humans need to at some point take control of our evolution and get smarter and smarter. And then of course, there's the hybrid of the two with brain machine interfaces where we all, some people will choose to merge, some people will not. But even if, you know, I believe that like you do, there's going to be probably more AI agents than humans and then not to just in future. But humans still need to advance and progress. Like that's important. I think there's a lot that we can do with these AI tools to actually benefit humanity. And, you know, healthier outcomes live longer if you want, you know, have more energy, have less back pain, you know, wake up not tired in the morning. And yeah, increase our cognition. Just, and just have, you know, have healthier offspring, have children that are free of diseases. Like there's a company I invested in called preventive that's doing embryo editing,

38:39which is a controversial topic. You know, people have seen these movies like Gatica and things like that. But actually like 80, if you look at the pure research, like 80% of Americans, embryo editing for disease prevention is supported by the population. Nobody wants these rare genetic diseases for their children. Everybody wants healthier, better lives for their children. I think that's one of those topics that's like, seems controversial today. I think it'll be more normal over time. And at some point, it'll be abnormal to have children without doing this kind of screening and editing because it's, it'd be like, what is this so risky? Like, why would you do that? You know, it's like, it's like driving without a seat belt or something like that. I always wondered by the way, in that one, whether or not, if you imagine a future where the like gene editing is recently common, there may be like packages that you're by, right? There's the intelligence package. There's the health package. I sometimes wonder whether you're overall, like if you think about different ways of being intelligent, there's processing speed, there's recall, there's like five or six different ways you can imagine different forms of intelligence. And I sometimes wonder whether these packages

39:40will effectively diminish the neurodiversity of humanity because it'll push everybody down the same package. It's almost like you're buying, you know, the Ford Model T of intelligence for everyone or something. So I've always been curious about what are the implications of active editing, relative to just human diversity and capability set. And, you know, well, parents, you've felt often into like the basic package or whatever, which will always be the same thing. So it's kind of a random aside, but there's all these weird downstairs applications and some of these things. Yeah. So I've heard, I've heard that argument before. And actually, I actually think it's the opposite. I actually think it could increase diversity. The reason is that there's just unlimited diversity of human preferences, right? I think if it was this simple and it may not be this simple, parents would say, you know, okay, do you want to have a great artist, a great general, a great engineer, a great politician? You know, it's like every parent is going to have some different favorite thing. And by the way, that sort of assumes that they're mutually exclusive. A lot of this might just be like raising the floor and then the kid is still who they are and what they were going to be.

40:40It's just they don't have schizophrenia or depression or something, right? So anyway, I think I actually don't think it'll decrease diversity. I think you could actually, I mean, in the limit case, you could actually get diversity that's really out there. Like you could have, you know, kids born with gills, they can breathe underwater or like, you know, have wings and fly or something. Like who knows how far it could go if you really can take control of your evolution. So one thing that's long been discussed in cryptocercles and libertarian circles and other things are basically different forms of special economic zones. And obviously, there's been implemented at scale in some cases like Shenzhen and China, I think in part, exists as a large scale manufacturing region in China because it became a special economic zone. One form, there's others that have been discussed in the Philippines, relatives or new centrist, you know, so there's really interesting things about what right now there. How do you think about that or how do you think it evolved over time, especially since cryptos played a prominent role on some of the underpinnings and philosophy behind some of these things?

41:41Yeah, so I'm super interested in special economic zones because again, I'm interested in meta problems that unlock progress across a whole category of things. And I think if you look at what slows down progress in many parts of the world, it is over regulation, right? Like Europe certainly is, could be an example of this, you know, the US has its own version of it that is not perfect. And there has been interest at various points in different solutions to this. You know, there's sea setting and Mars and going, up, brain upload into cyberspace and all these kinds of things. There's, you know, there's a one called Prospero, which is in Honduras. And Coinbase actually made an investment in that just to like learn more about it and see what was going on. And they've had mixed up and down, I'd say with like the local government there, but they're getting closer to a resolution is my understanding that will, you know, I think they're going to make it. I think they're going to do a good job. But there was something, I'd say there was a little bit more interest in this

42:43before the most recent Trump admin, just because, you know, the deregatory environment has created a lot of opportunities here in the US. And that's a nice, that's a great substrate and market to build on. There was actually an idea that was discussed at one point, I think in the campaign about something called Freedom Cities if people Google it, they can kind of see that idea. And the idea was to try to create some federal land in the US, you know, the federal government owns lots of different pockets of land. And if we say, all right, you know, we want to, we think it's important strategically for America to get really good at nuclear power or drug discovery or, you know, having a crypto or drone delivery or whatever it is, you could take a piece of land somewhere, the US has a ton of land, right? You could take a piece of this federal land, 10 or 100 square miles and say, you know what? For in this area, you don't need to go through all the normal red tape on EPA and all these things and like, you know, local community, you can build, you can just build data centers there. You can build nuclear power plants there. You can do unlimited drone delivery there.

43:44You don't have to get approval from the FAA because we want to create these zones where experimentation can happen in a safe, contained way to see what works and what doesn't. And if something works via experimentation, then you can go through the normal process in the rest of the US to see if it's ready to be brought to that location. The problem right now is in many cases, there is no sandbox to go try this innovation and that is just incredibly stifling. You can't really solve a problem as much as you earn, unless you can iterate on it, right? And so anyway, I think it'd be really fun to get some piece like these creative cities or special economic zones in the US. Yeah, as you mentioned, like Shenzhen, Singapore, Dubai, like stuff, these have been very successful in many other parts of the world and driven a ton of economic growth. And then some ways like the US is 50 special economic zones because of federalism and the state system. So that level of competition has, I think, allowed the US to be the leader globally in this, but it's just we could go even further and do even more.

44:45Yeah, very exciting. Brian, thank you so much for joining me today. Of course, thanks for having me. Find us on Twitter at no prior spot. Subscribe to our YouTube channel if you want to see our faces. Follow the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. That way you get a new episode every week. And sign up for emails or find transcripts for every episode at no-priors.com.