Chicken Caesar Salad

0:00I'm Tim McCurdy and I'm Sotherteague. And this is Sourced, a weekly show about cooking with booze and drinking with food. Let's take a little plain down to Mexico of course because it's the chicken Caesar salad. Okay. Is that not where your mind goes to when you think Caesar? It's not where my mind goes to when I think Mexico. It's a great dish and we're going to have a good time talking about it and I also think it's still summer so it's summer appropriate.

1:02Is this the world's most iconic salad? Wow. I mean what else you got? Waldoar? Waldoar's a big one. And then where I'm from in the south you got Ambrosia. Where I'm from, Ambrosia is custard. Where I'm from it's just salad in the most stretched terms. I mean it has gelo and marshmallows in it. I mean you got Niswas? Oh sure. Yeah. I think just in terms of what marketers might call share a voice. This is probably the one that's most recognizable. Sure. You know is the martini glass the most recognizable cocktail glass for sure. I mean that's why they made it the emoji for cocktail. Yeah exactly. What are your personal associations with it though? How do you feel about the Caesar? There is an emoji for salad. I can't, it's so tiny. Can I zoom in? Can I zoom in? Is it a Caesar? I feel like it's got a tomato in it though. It does. I was going to say I'm sure I've seen something red in there.

2:04Yeah. Not in my non-negotiables for today. Yeah. No, me either. But yeah, my personal association with it is I've worked at many places who've had it or versions of it on menu. I don't know that this is a salad I make at home though. I don't know that I have a professional more than a personal. And I do enjoy the salad. It's a great salad. You know. Is this, that surprises me just because the dressing contains so many things that I know you love. Yeah. And I know you like making fresh, you know, I know you have a stance on fresh mayo. I do. Yeah. I have a stance on mayo in general. And it only kind of weirdly recently formulated as an idea in my own mind. I have dozens of mustards. I have, I don't know, probably have nearly a hundred hot sauces. Why is it that I'm supposed to choose a mayo to rule them all? I have different mayo. Yeah. A variety of mayo for different uses. Horses for courses.

3:04Yeah, man. I've got my homemade stuff that I love and it changes slightly every time I make it because I just make it with whatever I've got laying around. I have cuppy because when I want something sort of savory and sweet, I've got dukes. When I want something rich and creamy, I've got helmins when I just want sort of standard mayonnaise. I would never touch with a 10 foot pole miracle whip. No offense to miracle whip. Let's take it. But it says right on the label salad dressing. Oh, salad cream. You ever had that stuff? Oh, that's a very British thing, right? I've not had it. I've seen it and I just assume it's the British miracle whip. Probably. Yeah. Very venegree. And this dressing for this salad that we're talking about today, Caesar is effectively an aole slash mayonnaise that's been augmented with a few extra items. So why do you think it is so iconic then? I think that you're going to get into it in the history, but it has a sort of a shy of glamorous, but it has at least a glitzy origin story and luxury angle.

4:07Am I wrong about that? It's true, but it got really tied to like nightlife and celebrity and so it just kind of it rode the wave. I think, but I didn't really. I wasn't familiar in any real way with the origins of this until looking it up for the show, but yet still it's just like the Caesar salad. I don't know. Maybe, maybe it's the name, right? Caesar's palace, Caesar being the most recognizable of Roman emperors, right? It's grand. It's, I don't know. It's got a standing. We've talked about this in the cocktail world as well. Jim Mehan said in his book, the Mehan Manual, a cocktail's only marketing campaign is its name. Just as we know that there are many, many terrible cocktails that exist because they have a great name. There are probably double that many great cocktails that don't exist because they didn't have a name that stuck with people.

5:09I would argue that the Waldorf is doing a lot of heavy lifting for what's actually in the salads because it's not something I love a Waldorf salad, but the name is iconic, right? The association. Yeah, maybe that's a part of it. And also, if you remove the anchovies, let's say, and that will be a non-negotiable question, this is something that's universally easy to enjoy, right? It's a neutral, green, a tasty dressing, and chicken breast. And some crunchy croutons. And some crunchy croutons. What's not to love? Yeah. Anyone can enjoy it. It's inoffensive. Well, yeah, but I wouldn't take it away from the canon because there are plenty of things that we love and enjoy that are sort of inoffensive. You know, look at the pizza margarita. Pretty straightforward. That is sort of the baseline of pizza. We go anywhere from here. I think that in some ways, this salad speaks to that. A great dressing, crunchy, you know, the crispy juicy lettuce, cheese, crunchy crouton,

6:13and we're going to throw in some chicken. Fantastic. Well, let's get into that origin now. And let's look at the beginnings of this wonderful dish. I mentioned at the beginning, we got a head to Mexico. Yeah. Which seems like the wrong place. The what I love about this story, though, is because, again, let's be upfront here. This is a dish that I'm eating with booze, but I'm not, you know, cooking with booze. Probably not. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can see a little way to get this. This is a drinking with food dish, sorry. I can see, I mean, listen, if it was Caesar salad, I mean, your camp, but we said chicken Caesar. So I, there's a way to get some booze in here. Okay. But booze played a pivotal role in its beginnings. Oh, yeah, how's that? So it was born in Tijuana, not Italy had nothing to do with the Romans, but it was at a place called Caesar's run by an Italian immigrant named Caesar Cardini. He was born in Baveno on Lake Magione in Northern Italy in 1896.

7:19Immigrated to New York in 1913, and by the 1920s, he moved to San Diego, but he applied his trade and worked in Tijuana because Tijuana had one thing that San Diego could not sell at the time. Booze. Prohibition, my friend. That's right. Yeah. Also, young man, all these people in our history, of course, are young because I guess we died younger. I don't know. But from what you just said, it sounds like he landed in New York at age 16 or 17. What were the numbers again? Yeah, 17. Yeah. Then he traveled all the way across the country to San Diego. That's an incredible feat for a young man as well. And in the in the 1910s, yeah. And then he decided, I'm going to live in San Diego and cross the border to go to work because there's booze there. Wow. Yeah. I mean, the tourists were going down there. I think of Cuba, Havana. Can you just chase him out, Father? Just chasing the paycheck. Just chasing the money. Exactly. I don't begrudge him. So despite that name, it has obviously nothing to do with Julius Caesar. As I said, it's named after its creator or supposed creator.

8:25We the tail that has been recounted often was by his daughter, Rosa. And she says that on July 4th, 1924, a holiday rush ran the kitchen low. So Cardini improvised the salad from what was left and tossed it table side for show. This was something that was theater from day one. And often theater that we've lost these days. What it had, whole romaine leaves, left long, tossed to coat, lifted by the stem, eating with your hands, no cutlery here, nothing cut up either. Right? You think of chopped lettuce, not at all. Had an interesting coddled one minute egg with olive oil, lemon juice, garlic, parmesan, garlic oil, croutons, and Worcestershire sauce. Rosa, his daughter, was adamant on one point. There were never any end to this.

9:26Yes, notably, I was about to say notably no anchovies in the original. Now where does that creep in? Now anchovies form the base of Worcestershire sauce, right? It's made from fermented anchovies. I mean, I've always referred to Worcestershire sauce when trying to explain to people as like it's effectively the UK's version of fish sauce. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I don't find it especially fishy though. Me either. Right. But the way it's made, as you just said, we're fermenting some anchovies as part of the base of the sauce. That's what fish sauce is. It's umami, right? Super umami bomb. Everything in this thing is umami. But the anchovie would end up being something of a sticking point, right? So the family starts fighting over it and the workers at Caesars. His brother Alex Cardini claimed his own version, the aviator salad, made for American pilots, which included mashed anchovied fillets on the croutons and lime instead of lemon.

10:30To me seems like a riff, not a whole new salad. Well, when, when the thing is brand new, you're still vying to see who's going to be the original kind of, right? Yep. Just because yours came first doesn't mean it's the original. It's who popularized it. We go over the offensive. We go over this all the time. Also, I love that it's a sibling rivalry. Also, that means that his brother came over as well. Yeah. Wow. Must have. But like the aviator salad is to the Caesar. What a Vesper is to the martini, right? Like it's variation. It's got a name, but it's really not that different. We like, well, look, we put lime instead of lemon. Yeah. Come on, dude, who's noticing that? Right. And then he's spreading anchovie fillets on croutons. Yeah, not for me. Um, another person who got into the fray, a cook in Cardini's kitchen, Livio Santini, said the recipe was actually his mother's. And his mother was an Italian who had improvised it from wartime rations in America, in Austria,

11:32sorry, not America during World War II. Um, by 1946, a columnist named Dorothy Kill Gallen had put Caesar recipes to print with anchovies worked in. So that's 22 years after it's supposed creation. These were already the norm. I guess 22 years is a pretty long time when you think of things. Sure. And in the scale of a human life, in the grand scheme, it's not even a second. But Caesar, Cardini himself in 1952 was unequivocal in saying, I originated at 28 years ago in Tijuana, Mexico, and these others, they just aren't the same. So yeah, kind of glamorous, right? Traveling south of the border, chasing down booze. Um, I should have looked up pictures of this place. I'm imagining it looking kind of grand and cool.

12:33Sure. Table side preparation. That's the thing I forgot to mention earlier too. That's where that sort of luxury angle came from. It was popular at restaurants at that time where people would, you know, you'd still get dressed in a suit to go out to a restaurant, you know. But then in, I think in Southern California, AKA LA, Hollywood, this became popular. And again, the table side preparation, giving it some theater, the whole leaves, giving it some uniqueness, you know, it was kind of like a, you know, I've jokingly called this dish like, um, lettuce nachos, right? Which tracks as well if he was in Mexico making this, you know, um, yeah, I think there was theater and luxury and then it got associated with fame. And then thus it became famous. Let's not forget as well, just the whole idea of when there's something new, right? And like how, how often had the salad been experimented with? I guess the Waldorf was definitely established at this point.

13:37So yeah, it's just something new, something cool. He trademarked his dressing, by the way, in 1948. And you know, just two years ago, the humble Caesar celebrated its 100 year anniversary. Wow. So that's cool. I didn't even do anything to mark the occasion, did you? I didn't, I wasn't aware. I'll celebrate next year. I'll celebrate in the next 100. Um, well, those have been the origins. I guess final thing for us to discuss before we take our first break of the day. Hmm, princes or popers dish. I think this is neither. Can it be neither? Which one are you leaning more toward? I think it's, it's a pretty modest dish. Um, but it, but it, but it started in Tijuana. I don't know about Tijuana then, but Tijuana now is a place where you can go with very little money and get a lot, get a lot. So I think it's, is it popper then? I don't know. I'm torn on this one to be honest.

14:37I'm leaning prince because I think because the opulence of the setting and the places that are good served. Yes. I imagine that, that Tijuana and the, the kind, these kinds of establishments, I'm sure they were probably catering, like you said, to the rich and famous people who had means to, to go and travel in search of booze. The fact that it was made table side. Okay, that was probably to add theater because he was running out of ingredients. And also, okay, the original didn't have chicken, but the fact that we most commonly use chicken breast, which I know we both have our own thoughts on this, but I think chicken breast is the one for me for this dish. Really? Just in terms of if I'm making the textbook version of it, right, well, the textbook version wouldn't have it. So that, to me, leans more prince. I guess the final question I have though is this guy, right, so resourceful that he was

15:38traveling the world in search of a buck. What the hell was he doing going into July 4th weekend with not enough supplies? Well, there's that. And to feed the gas, this is a bit romanticized, right? Because there's that, but there's also the notion that like, okay, we're running low on stuff. I'm already scrambling around. I'm going to add in, now I'm going to wheel a trolley out and do this table side. No, I'd be making this in the kitchen and whipping it out the door. But if it's like, well, all we've got is a couple of eggs, some standard, pantry ingredients, and these lettuce leaves in some bread, let's make it fancy in front of people. Right. I mean, he was from Italy, so maybe he wasn't ready to celebrate July 4th as a normal thing. He's also in Mexico, so he wasn't thinking he was going to affect him there. I don't know. I don't know, man. I guess a lot of, a lot of stuff's made up. It's the same as that, but it's the same as we encountered in our wings episode, right? Like, oh, it was the end of the day and they had nothing. So these wings that they normally used for stocks, they cooked them. I'm going to start running down my supplies and the fridge upstairs and see if we'll see

16:38what I come up with. See what happens. Necessity. Yeah, the mother of invention. There we go. All right. So let's take that break and then we, then we will be back with the culinary luminaries. Cool. All right, so there we're back. The luminaries. I'm not going to say or not going to mention it. I'm going to hand it to you, but I did find one of our icons entering the conversation, which was nice because they haven't been here for a while. I found them both. Yeah. Oh, good. Well, I mean, both in the same breath, really. Kind of a fun, fun, I don't know. Kind of an interesting culinary disagreement that these two had. Joc and Julia were talking about, of course. Julia was a hard stand for the non-ancho v version. And Joc was completely in the other camp. So there's that. And Julia, she said that she remembered eating a Caesar salad at Cardini's restaurant when she was a child.

17:38She's crazy. Yeah. What was she doing in Tijuana as a child? And later obtained the recipe from the aforementioned daughter Rosa. And she stood with Rosa on the no anchovies point. So that's how Julia Caesar was. That's got to be our porco pun of the week right there. And Julia Caesar. Julia Caesar. But Joc like to put in the anchovies. And why is it that all of us, I think all of us, all of us who enjoy good food, want the anchovies in there. They bring glutamates to the party, which is going to just really back up all the other umami bombs that are already in this dressing. You know, Parmesan, garlic, rich egg, oil, like my mouth begins to water as we talk about it. Marked it on your bingo card. And then we're going to go in and add chicken, another savory item. So this dish becomes super, super savory.

18:40As far as luminaries go, oddly, that's kind of all I could get. Everyone, I think it's such a ubiquitous dish that people have it on their menus. They just don't really talk about it. Yeah. It's it's it exists. I think no one has stepped forward and owned it like it was owned in the beginning. Yeah. So weirdly, it seems kind of ripe for the picking. You know, any of the guys that we love, like why doesn't Biyat put a definitive Caesar on his menu? Well, the guys at Fallow go Caesar. This is it. You know, why doesn't 11 Madison Park have a Caesar? It's a great question. I wonder whether it's just because it's seen as too common. Right. I totally agree with that. But I also I feel the same way about a lot of drinks, but there are places who have championed the martini. It is too common. But you know, there are plenty of restaurants and bars here in New York City and worldwide where the martini is exalted. So I think it's an opportunity for someone to champion the dish and sort of obviously

19:41it belongs to, you know, Cardini, but like to make it their own for today's market. This is just reminding me now, and I didn't get into it in the beginning, but like, you know, professional associations with this or whatever. I'm now realizing that the place where I first learned about the table side preparation, including the dressing, was it culinary school? And if I recall one of our tests, we had like, what are all the components of a traditional Caesar dressing and then water all the components of the salad? And some of the stuff we included in the salad, I'm like, well, they're definitely not in the original, but wouldn't be considered non-negotiables. Soft boiled egg. No. Is that because of the coddled egg origins? Well, no, because the coddled egg would just be the dressing. Right. But let's talk about a coddled egg for a minute now. I had never encountered this before. I think it's like gently steamed, right?

20:44No, rapidly boiled for one minute. Oh, oh, what was I thinking? I was thinking, what's the one we put it in a dish? Oh, yeah, ufung kukot. There we go. Right. So this is still in the shell. You drop it in the rapidly boiling water. Just for a minute, it starts to coagulate some of the proteins, but it's still quite raw. Why do we do this? No idea, because the science of it, it's not cooking for long enough to pasteurize eggs. To pasteurize it. So you need pasteurized eggs. Sure. I don't know. Or trust your farmer. I just don't know the answer to that. Yeah. But I'm curious if that culinary school, though, the coddled part was made people think there should be a cooked egg component. Oh, and this is maybe where it gets into the princes, right? Because I remember distinctly being shown in a wooden salad bowl.

21:45I was about to say, I remember this from culinary school as well. Had to be a wooden bowl because the first thing you do is take a clove of garlic and scrape it across the bottom of the bowl to scent the bowl with the garlic oil. And then you go egg yolk, start making your emotion. Once the dressing is made, then start tossing the things in it. I believe another one that we had was crispy bacon. Was another like, this is what's in the Caesar. So it would have been anchovies, croutons, soft boiled egg, chicken, romaine, dressing, bacon. Bacon. Yeah, that sounds good, but it's not a Caesar. So I think that's the answer to that question though. When it comes to all things Caesar, what comes first? It's the egg. Yeah. I think it's the same thing as the one that I was talking about in the beginning. But in the joke argument, the chicken came first. Still up for debate, in my opinion.

22:45Then yeah, I mean, like to your point, okay, so there was one Nancy Silverton made a deconstructed Caesar. So it's speaking to your point about like, has anyone taken this? It was a small dress, romaine salad set beside a crustino spread with garlic, eye-only, and laid with anchovy and hard boiled egg. There's that egg eaten by alternating the two, there are two hands, a little bit of salad, a little bit of crustino. The 80s. What a wild time. I like Michael Simon's take on put it in your mouth podcast recently where he said, why are chefs deconstructing things? It is our job to construct your dinner. We're here to construct dinner for you. I mean, his camp, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It's fun. It's all, it's the trends and whatnot they sway over time. But yeah, those are the luminaries then.

23:48I guess I had Kenji doesn't go with the coddled egg. Who does? I don't know. His raw egg, he basically does exactly what we would do, but makes it in a food processor, a food processor rather than whisking it by hand. I use my immersion blender when I'm making mayonnaise. I guess that's what I would probably do if I was making this dish at home. But honestly, if I was making this dish at home, it'd probably just be for me and Natalie. I would probably do it in the bowl the old school way. I need one egg. You know what I mean? What's the point? I'm not going to break out another piece of equipment and mess up more dishes. I'm just going to make it in the bowl. We would, this would be a staple for family meal. Caesar dressing. It was a way in the kitchen as an apprentice or with apprentices to be like, okay, now you're going to dial in your mail and Caesar dressing and this is how you make it. You could tell a lot about a person by how garlicky or anchovy their dressing was.

24:53All right, well, those have been the luminaries. We'll take another quick break now and then we'll be back with non-negotiables. Non-negotiables. There we go. Today's non-negotiables are brought to you by Elacabo Ricea. When harvest is done, I'm workers gather to raise a glass to their combined labor. That's where you'll find Elacabo Ricea. Craft it for shared celebrations. All right, so there we go. The non-negotiables. Yeah. What you got? Number one. Number one for Caesar salad. It's lettuce and that lettuce has to be romaine specifically. It's sturdy, crisp, just wet enough to be, quote unquote, juicy. I know it's weird to think of lettuce as juicy, but it is. It's got slight bit of bitterness, but it's generally a sweet lettuce. I think romaine is a must. I think next in line for me, given that we're calling this specifically chicken Caesar salad.

25:55Sure. There's chicken. I'm leaning breast as non-negotiable. Wow. See, this is where we're going to fight. I'm not saying it's the best version. I'm just saying it's the expected one. And you follow on that assumption a lot and I often agree with you. I don't know if I'm going to on this one. Well, I guess let's ask the second question here because I was holding this in the bag for a minute. How we cooking this chicken? I think ideally grilled. Yeah. I think there's only two answers for me. It was either going to be grilled or fried. Like deep fried. Fried chicken Caesar, let's go. That is no. That's wild. Why is it wild? No, I mean delicious. Don't get me wrong. But I think grilled is the way. But I just wanted to point out that we could have poached chicken. We could have pan fried chicken. We could have roasted it a whole bird and peeled some chicken off there.

26:56We could have, I don't know, we could barbecue chicken and pull it and put it in. Still, it would be chicken Caesar salad, right? Kind of like in the Shrimp and Grits episode where no matter what, you put in there, whatever you take away, it's still shrimp and grits. You know, it's other. Something that people say about me, they say he's a reasonable guy. Say it's not my career. It does, I disagree. Challenging. So I'm going to meet you in the middle here. I'm going to say, all right, the cut of chicken is up for debate. Okay. Non-negotiable. No bones. Oh, yeah, yeah, no bones, no bones. I wouldn't put a piece of chicken on a salad that had bones in it. And if I was making this in the platonic original style of eat with your hands, I still wouldn't put chicken with bones. I wouldn't put like chicken wings on here. I wouldn't leave a bone in the thigh. I wouldn't leave the cage in the breast. I wouldn't do an airline breast, you know. Yeah. Bones for sure, it's a salad. You know, that's a thing that chefs do think about, I think most of them, if they're conscientious,

27:59is like, how is the final result going to be consumed? And, you know, like, that's why you were not chunking in half a potato into a soup, right? It needs to be cut into a size that'll fit on a spoon. Well, then let me stop you in our tracks here for a second. Uh-oh, here we go. If we're thinking about the original way in which this was intended in the deconstructed version, the Nancy Silverton or whatever, if we're eating this with our hands, actually bones are probably something you want. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, you're not wrong. Well, we have more non-negotiable stuff. Yeah, yeah, we got to keep going. You know, that was an unreasonable amount of time for a reasonable guy to spend on that one point. Yeah, sure. Should I start with parmesan? You got to have cheese and it's got to be parmesan. Interesting. Uh-oh. I agree. Okay. It was, that was another one that was in the, the culinary school, but I was like, parmesan's higher up than dressing for you?

29:00The dressing is the salad. I mean, you're right. You're right. Yeah. Again, that's what I had as number three. I had romaine, parmesan, number three dressing, but the dressing has so many pieces to it. I had to point it to get the things that are separate out first. And I agree, the real Parmigiano Reggiano shaved, nothing grated. Certainly not the pre-grated stuff that people buy. Right. Nice. Like, use your peeler and make some shavings. That way again, if we are going to serve this in the, you know, nacho style, they would stay on there a little bit better and be a little bit less messy for your fingers. We're not going to do that because we're going to have chicken on ours and then it's probably not going to bones it in. So we're going to need to eat this with a fork. I'm just hearing thinking about that and talking about the different styles of cheese. I'm just now finding it unbelievable that growing up, we would have a tube. A green thing? Of. No, no, it's like, you know, like a salt container. Yeah, that green one.

30:01It was like a sawdust inside of cheese, not in the fridge. Oh, yeah, right. In the Whirligig. Yeah, and also what is that, Lazy Susan? It's similar to a Whirlig, is it, it occupies the corner of a kitchen and, but it's, but it's circular inside. It's a lazy Susan inside. Got it. Yeah, I don't know whether that Whirligig is the technical term, but that's what we're called it. I love it. Yeah, no, I know what you're talking about. The Parmesan. Yeah. Was it even spelled wrong, I think? I think it must have been. Yeah. These days, especially with the EU. I just looked back on it all the time and I think it just, it just looks like sawdust. Okay. Anyway, Parmesan, let's jump to the dressing. The dressing and the dressing has to meet the requirements of being super savory, still quite acidic, garlicky, rich in texture. I think that's a real huge one and fully emulsified. So again, it's thinner than say mayonnaise slash aioli, but it's thicker than dressing.

31:02I don't want to have when I'm finished eating. I don't, I shouldn't see a pool of anything in the bottom. Yeah. I think even just a little bit of texture too, you can leave in it. I think that's a nice thing, right? What, what to me? It needs to, it needs to cling to the lettuce. Yeah. You got, so we'll go through it, right? Egg yolk, oil, lemon juice, garlic, Worcestershire sauce, Parmesan, mustard, Dijon. Yeah, a little mustard with the egg yolk in the very beginning to emulsify. Emulsification, yeah. So I don't know, a fancy Caesar dressing for me or a gourmet Caesar dressing is one where I get the texture of the Parmesan in the dressing. Sure. From the dressing itself. Croutons. That was next on my list. From real bread. From real croutons. From real bread and also the crouton needs to be somewhat savory slash garlicy. Yes. Frankly, I'm going to make probably a garlic oil, which I always have in my house.

32:05We've mentioned on the show before. I always have a confit of garlic in my home, so there's always garlic oil in my home. And I'm going to fry these up and they must be dried and super crispy. Perfect. And they give, they shouldn't be like bread anymore. Not even interior. No, because I think they should also be quite small. Okay. Interesting. I don't like a big old crouton on this salad. Now I've worked in the past. I worked at a French place in Tennessee years and years and years ago, or we had a salad on the menu that was delicious. But the chef instructed us to take a half inch thick slice of sourdough bread and literally plunge it in clarified butter before slapping it on the flat top to griddle it and then cutting it into big cubes to toss into a salad. Those were crazy delicious, but they were just bread. They weren't croutons. They had a crispy exterior, but they were definitely buttery on the inside. Oh, that's my, that's where I would go. Yeah.

33:06It's not non-negotiable and I know I'm the outlier there. I remember a place where I worked where this was on menu at the county hall, Marriott Hotel in London, five star hotel, but very much like, you know, this is a hotel dish, right, you know, with your burgers and whatnot. One of the guys who worked on the Larder station with me, he was such a hack that he would make his croutons. He was so lazy that he would just, you know, slice up his bread and deep fry them. Whoa. Yeah. Well, that was the same guy that fried his churros in fish oil. So, Phil. This guy was the fry chef. Yeah, he just looked. Wow. I remember one day I came in to work and, you know, we had probably at any one time, five different soups on our station. And I came in and he'd seen me doing something for the Lee Competetto soup that I'd learned

34:06at culinary school, which is, you know, cook and use some of the green tops of the leeks to give it a better color. I came into work one day and I had seen this Lee Competetto soup that he'd made and it was bright green, like monster energy drink. I was like, what's going on here? He goes a little bit of food coloring, no? Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. No food coloring in this though. Yeah. Alright, so croutons, we agree. What else you got? And that's, that's it. Are we going no anchovy? Listen, man, I can't believe that I am the one saying to you here, the purest, the one who always goes, this is how it was originally done and then I'm doing it that way. You're right. Let your, don't let your preferences cloud your judgment. That's your conscience, be your guide. Yeah. Alright, I had it as one and I even put me slash us, like hopeful that you would agree.

35:10You know how I feel about 10 oily fish. I do. It's unfortunate, but I do. Yeah, we talked about the dressing. I think if there's a non-agosable, I don't know if we mentioned, we did. We'd mentioned texture. It needs to be very well. It's great. That was my last one. That was my last one. I think you mentioned it before we got to the end. So how about some negotiables then? So now we'll call anchovies negotiable. Obviously, for chicken Caesar salad, it must be chicken, but negotiables on Caesar salad, I love a shrimp Caesar. And you know, we talk at Nazia about how much I love shrimp. Recently I went with our good friend Max Green to Keens and had a steak Caesar. It was quite good. So this was when we, sorry, sorry to interrupt. No, no. When I worked at the bistro, we would always have on the grill section, there would always be steak and the garnish for the steak would change depending on the season and the menu. Caesar was a long time side to the steak with a slow-cooked soft duck egg.

36:15Ooh. So there's that egg again. Love it, okay. But slow-cooked and soft, that sounds delightful because now you're having like steak and eggs, but for lunch or dinner, sounds great. Other negotiables, we mentioned already one and I didn't think it needed to be on ours, but bacon. Yeah. And I know you have like sort of a strange relationship with bacon. You love it sometimes, you hate it sometimes. I love bacon. I would. You don't love smoke though. I don't like it when it's too smoky and it overpowers. Right. And avocado comes into play in a lot of Caesar's these days. Tomatoes, which I definitely think do not belong, but I see them happen a lot in Caesar's, especially like maybe some just split cherry tomatoes. Yeah. And then one that I am on the fence about because we've already spoken about how much the lettuce is important to this dish, I do, however, like from time to time, kale Caesar. Okay. Because every time I say it, I think in my mind, kale Caesar.

37:17Hail Julius Caesar. All right. Well then let me propose an ingredient that I think lives naturally with all the other stuff. It's not classic, but if we were going to introduce something left field, I think you could make the strongest case for sweet corn. Say why? Because it's crispy because it's just vibes. We're cooking on vibes. Like we did in tripping. Yeah. Yeah. Let the, let the guides, let the guides be your, anyway, I forgot what you said, but I think I said let the guides be your vibes. The, no, you said be vibed, but anyway. Yeah. I just sweet corn, chicken, mayo, lettuce. Like these are standard things that go together. Sure. Can I tempt you to any potatoes? Potatoes. Maybe some like those really crispy little tiny matchsticks.

38:19I was going to say personal, kind of style, yeah, or like that that you would put in a personal out exactly that. Yeah. I could see that for sure. You know, okay. I've had a realization. Well, I got one more, okay. Negotiable. This is just me trying to think about this episode, of course, but also trying to think about, well, it's a show about cooking with booze. I think when we get to the chicken and the preparation part, we're going to probably add some booze to some sort of marinade, right? Some small amount of wine or remoot, or what have you. I think also if we think hard about the emulsification that is this dressing, we could easily take some say shallots and herbs of some kind and reduce those down with either white wine or that white remoot again and let that cool and then incorporate that into dressing. So we're making somewhat of a chilled bairnise. Yeah. Slash Caesar dressing. Again, I don't think we're going to do that on this episode. I don't think I want that, but I can see how that would be delicious.

39:19And again, if I was out there running a restaurant and trying to champion this dish and maybe make it my own, that's something I'd consider doing. I do know that there's a contingent of listeners that, and I say this is like having spoken with friends who listen to this show. There are some people who cannot get past it. If it's like chicken Caesar, well, there's no booze in that. How are you putting the booze in that? I'm like, it can be in the glass. You got to listen to the show. Tune in. So if you want to push it, I agree with that approach. I think, right, because I've never done that. I've never, and I've made a many a mayonnaise in my day, and I've made many holidays and barenays in my day. But I've never taken the reduction style from the barenays and added that to a mayonnaise. And why wouldn't I? That sounds delicious. You're going to add a new layer of acidity to your dressing. It can easily bring some herbaceous quality, handful of cracked peppercorns, classic stuff like shallot and tarragon. Tarragon. Tarragon. For the Caesar, maybe, I don't know, tarragon. Dill.

40:19Dill sounds like it might be good. I don't know. I think there's a real opportunity there that I've never considered until this episode. And I think that that's another of the beneficial points of doing this show, hopefully, for the listener. But certainly for me, it makes me take a hard look at things sometimes and say, well, why we do it this way? Why wouldn't we try this? Why wouldn't we carve a new path? I was thinking, I mentioned a minute ago, like I've had a realization in real time as we're flying the plane. We're very much building this plane as we fly it this week. Greg says one that I like lay in the tracks as the trains are running. We've also seen that cartoon. You just stay ahead of it. I think the reason that this isn't viewed as grandiose anymore or maybe it's a princess dish that's become a porpoise dish. Let's look at all of these ingredients and let's look at my anecdote about cheese from

41:20a box that's shelf stable. This salad more than any other has been shelf stabilized. People buy croutons from a packet. Shelf-stable cheese. Salad dressing that shelf stable, right? All of these things, the only thing really that's fresh for a long period of this dish's history were the lettuce and the chicken. Right. Maybe that's it. This is a salad that could travel to Mars. Yeah. I don't disagree. Also, again, it had a tadea as luxurious with the table side setting and the famous people eating it and famous restaurants and dressing to the nines and whatever, probably drinking illicit martinis and... Well legal. South of the border. Well, right, but I'm saying this distraveled to Hollywood.

42:20Oh, gotcha. And that was still during prohibition. They're out there making your Caesar table side and they're probably shaking you a martini table side totally illegally. But it doesn't have a ton of opulent ingredients and even as the origin story dictates, it's like we were down to the last of the stuff. The last of your stuff isn't usually your best stuff. We were running out of our supplies. Our larger was low. We made this out of what we had. But we made it with love and by hand. Yeah, delicious. Final, final, final one for this section. We brushed over it. We said oil. Oh, sure. It needs to be a neutral oil. A neutral. Yeah, pretty neutral. I don't want extra virgin in this. I don't want to taste my oil. Right. Now, the oil is just there to be the emulsifier. All right. Then, well, that has been the non-negotiables plus the negotiables. And then we'll be back with the preparation. Sure. Thanks to Elacabo Rysia for presenting today's non-negotiables.

43:23For an authentic intro into the dazzling world of Rysia, head to the show notes to learn more about Elacabo Rysia today. Today's preparation is brought to you by Underburg from Heavy Tasting Menu to Light Feed Home. That's Underburg. All right. So there we go. Um, table side. Supplies are run in low. It's your life. Fourth. There's nothing in the kitchen. So you may as well run out into the dining room. Walk us through. I can't even imagine the chaos. Walk us through. Okay. Well, first thing, there's the major pieces of prep here are the chicken and the croutons. So we're going to take our chicken. In this case, we're going to use breasts because that's the way Tim wants it. No, no, I agreed. I agreed. You're right. I expected. I personally would do this with thighs, but we're for our show. We're using breasts. So take a couple of breasts. You might want to manipulate them, pound them a little bit to get them evenly thick,

44:23but not much. We're not trying to make a pie art here. Let's marinate them a little bit. Standard marinade. Nothing crazy. Use some of the things that are already in the dressing. Let's go with some lemon juice, maybe a little bit of Worcestershire. We can, if we want to squeak some booze in here, this would be a great place to put into just a little bit of a vermouth or white wine and then some salt and pepper. And that's it. Just an easy marinade. Get that done 30, 40 minutes before you go out to the grill because we decided we are grilling. While that's marinating, let's get the croutons cut tossed in a pretty garlicky oil, spread out on a sheet pan and into the oven until they're nice and dry and crisp. And let's not make them too big. Once we've got the grill fired up, let's get the chicken on there and grilling. Until it's done and then once it's done, let's let it rest. And then we will assemble our salad. Salad starts with the dressing. So let's make a dressing using an egg yolk, a small clove of garlic, a bit of dill, mustard,

45:24and let's start in a multiplication in a bowl with a whisk and or your tool. If you're using a tool, you're not going to add the oil right to your immersion blender. But if not, let's get those things together. As they're coming together, squeeze in a bit of lemon juice for brightness. In goes a bit of Worcestershire sauce and now we're drizzling in the oil nice and slow, as you've seen everyone make a mayonnaise your whole life. Then we're going in with some of that Parmesan cheese, but finally grated because you want that mouth feel. I was listening to you, so I put it in my notes. And then as it comes together, taste it, of course. I don't think you're going to need much if any salt. I think that we've got the Worcestershire and the Parmesan cheese are going to bring those things to the party. Don't you want to hit this with a little cracked pepper and then now you've got your dressing. Let's make sure we have washed our romaine and dried it. It's important that it stays nice and dry because we don't want any liquid coming off of the lettuce because there's liquid in the lettuce, but we don't want any liquid just coming off the lettuce thinning our dressing.

46:24As mentioned earlier in the show, when I'm finished eating this, I shouldn't see a pooling of anything in the bottom. The emulsification should be clingy to the lettuce leaves. So dry it off and also chill it, right? So wash it and dry it even while you're doing the other things, the croutons and the chicken and keep it in the fridge. So it's nice and cold as well. I think one of the things about a Caesar salad is that Christmas and that chill, right? How do you feel about salad spinner? Yeah, man. We used to have the big ones. The ones that are about the size of a small garbage can with a big crank on top and we had those at the shop. I had one in my house. I do see a value for them and we used it all the time in the restaurant for this exact thing to dry the lettuce, especially greens or what have you. I can't argue against them, but I personally don't own one I never have. We have one at the house. I had to lobby for it. Yeah. Cheers to have the pump thing or the string thing. No, it's the regular crank. The regular crank.

47:26Every time I use it, I am astounded by how much water you get out of the washed salad when you think it's already pretty dry. Yeah, no, it is actually quite shocking. Again, that one that's the size of a small garbage can, you're slinging off like half a gallon of water. One of a chef I worked with, James Pacman, who I went to culinary school with as well, a dear friend, when he was spinning salad, he would get it up to a speed that sounded like a jumbo jet taken off. Yeah. This cannot be good through the salad. I think that was all of our goal. Oh, really? It would never be in perfect balance. You'd be cranking this thing and it would be shaking. Holding onto a barrel going over the waterfall. Yeah. The little joys in life, spinning salad. But yeah, I was curious to see whether you had one just knowing your rules, your hard rules. Yeah, I don't. I never even considered that well thinking about this. But if this was at a restaurant that I worked at, we would surely be doing this to this

48:27product. So then now you've got your, I'm going to say for hours, actually I'm on the fence here. Are we cutting the lettuce? Are we leaving it whole? We're going to cut the chicken. We're going to eat this with a fork. I think we're cutting the lettuce. But I want to cut it pretty big then. Yeah. Pretty chunky style. I'm not looking for a shredice here. I hate that word. I actually kind of like it. I wouldn't use it if I didn't like it. All right. Let's assume we're going to cut in maybe almost an inch wide slices of that romaine. So let's get our romaine cut and or tour. You could just tear it. Yeah. Let's get that. Now, we've got our dressing that we made. If you made it in the bowl, perfect. If you didn't make it in the bowl, get yourself a nice large bowl, big enough that you can toss these things and put some dressing in the bowl first. I think that is the common mistake that people make at home is that salad goes in and then dressing goes on top. And it's very difficult to incorporate this way. When you end up, frankly, over dressing. So put a modest amount of the dressing in the bowl, sling it all the way around the bottom.

49:28Don't just put it right in the bottom. Then it goes your lettuce, gently tossed to start coating. Now our chicken has been rested enough so that we can slice it. And it goes gently tossed to coat that slice up those rather not sliced up those shaved bits of Parmesan can go in now as well. The final thing you want to put in are the croutons because we put them into early. They'll start to get soggy from the dressing and any remaining moisture that's in there. And then plate up and maybe a few more shaves of the Parmesan on the top. Are we going crispy bacon in ours? No, we didn't do bacon. We said that was a negotiable amount of. Okay. Now you just seem whether you wanted to put it in the sauce version. No, that sounds delightful to me. And then I think the real thing about a Caesar is one of the reasons it was done table side in the beginning is because it needs to be served and eaten immediately. Yeah. The clock is ticking on this thing for those crispy croutons to get soggy for the warm chicken in our case to start wilting the lettuce. Like you want to get it to the guest immediately. That way, frankly, when you're having a chicken Caesar or any Caesar that has a hot protein

50:31involved, you're getting that dichotomy of like the protein is hot, the lettuce is cold and the dressing is, you know, clinging and creamy. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot going on. A lot of textures and temperatures and yeah, I like it. I mean, I think that this salad, that's what this salad is. It's textures and temperatures. And filling, isn't it? Just the very nature of a, you know, that lettuce, the, I always forget what is called the, the response. No, the payoff response cost response cost. Yeah. You know, it's a lot of effort eating a big romaine salad. Sure. It will make you, make you think you're fuller than maybe you are. Um, all right. Well, that's in the, that's what's in the bowl. Time for us to take our final break of the day and then we'll be back with the pairings. Love it. Thanks to Underburg for presenting today's preparation. When the pairing was bold and the plate was bigger, head to the show notes to learn more about Underburg today. All right.

51:31So there we're back. Mm-hmm. The pairings. Wine. Let's start with wine. Mm-hmm. Chris Paiassid White is where I want to go. Yeah. Actually, where I always want to go is Burgundy. A light, but, you know, I love some oak on my Burgundy or on any shardonnay. Not too crazy. Lightly oak, I think, is the absolute maximum when it comes to the influence of those characteristics. Um, I think Macon, the village, but again, pretty expensive. If we're talking high acid and crisp, maybe you're going to find more friends in Shubli. That's the one that's on my list. Shubli, acidity, minerality, cutting through that dressing, complimenting that Parmesan. Like, that's the only one I have. Oh, sorry, I have to. Oh, I forgot to hit two. But we get through the Shubli. Yeah. I'm in the Shubli camp, I think. The other one, if we want to stay in Burgundy and if we want to continue high acid white, let's

52:34look at the other white grape there. Ali Gotay. Hmm. Becoming, um, certainly it's become more famous and more coveted these days. Again, as Burgundy prices have skyrocketed, I think Psalms and wine buyers turn around and said, look, here's this lesser known grape that the region also does. And, you know, oftentimes that can be a really good marketing event for some, you know, for a lesser known grape or style of wine. Um, the other one I had just in that crisp, uh, or two more, I guess, would be a lot of the, pick pool to pin a. Well, that's a new one to me. You say, say pitbull, pick pool from, uh, from Southern France. It's a white. I've often described it as, um, Audi's Gruener Veltliner. It's a, it's a, in the UK, it's an Audi wine like I think people, when people wanted to think that they were buying boozeier than so of a young bloc, but still continuing to play pretty rock bottom prices. Right.

53:34Pick pool's always been a great option. Um, but the other, like I say, Gruener Veltliner, um, there's one, there's a boxed Gruener. I forget what it's called. It's, it's, I can see it now though. It's like yellow and black and it's almost like a cool kind of cartoon on it. Pretty widely available. It's, that's something of a staple in my fridge over summer, just having that on hand. You know, basically just citrus fruit or a green orchard fruit acid. Good to go. Love it. Uh, I was thinking to go with this dish, um, the muskete. Yeah. Another one. Cause it's got some saline. So again, I, you know, my approach is always right at it or kind of against it. So the saline in the muskete, I think it's going to be up against all these humami bomb parts of the salad. It's going to really pair well. Yeah. Love it. If someone at the table is calling for red, we've said it before. Is it lamb brusco? Oh, yeah.

54:35I mean, yes, just assume that there's always a bottle of lamb brusco there. Game or bogeyly. Oh, okay. You know, yeah. I mean, the same thing, but like game from bogeyly or somewhere else. Yeah. Um, and that's wine. What do you think on beer and cocktails? Beer. I know I've brought it up a few times recently, but this dish being as light and crisp as it is, the colch, like a tall skinny glass of colch, which is also somewhat, the colch is traditionally served in a, in a eight to 10 ounce glass. Schnitt. No, not the other thing. No, that's what it was called, right? Yeah. The schnitt. Yeah. So they're frosty cold. Uh, and the salad again is supposed to be consumed kind of right away. I feel like these two are in, in kuhuts in that, in that regard. It's the only beer that I listed. Um, Mexican logger. I was just based on, uh, I was obviously there's some other options that could be considered and I hadn't even thought of that until you just mentioned it. But yeah, Mexican logger. And this is, or, or, let's go the other way, like an Italian, like a peroni.

55:37Yeah, true. I mean, this, this was made in Mexico, but it was made by an Italian. How about I, right? Otherwise it would be Cesar salad. Chesare. How about I see your Mexican beer and I raise you? Modello. Now made in America. Is it, as they move their facilities? They, let's just say the teamsters are lobbying pretty hard for it right now. Wow. Yes. Um, still currently made in Mexico, but the extent to which that will be true in the future remains to be seen. Wow. Yeah. Um, let's get into a cocktail. Yeah. I got a couple of classics that I want to pitch that I think would go great with this dish. One of them I think you'll like. One of them I think you'll not like. You'd like a Tommy's margarita. Yeah. You got some sweetness. You got some saline on the edge of the glass as you just tied it to the Mexican beer. This is clearly a Mexican cocktail in its origins. Um, you know, Tommy's is just three ingredients for if you count the salt on the edge, but it's

56:37just a kilo lime agave. And I think that would beautifully simple. I think that would pair with this salad, which is deceptively complex. Simple, simple to look at, simple to eat, but like there's a lot, there's a lot of moving parts in that salad. Mm hmm. Uh, second one that I think you won't love because I don't think it's your style, but a martini specifically a dirty martini. Oh, listen, I'm yet to meet a martini. I don't like. Actually, that's not true. 50 50. Come on. Where's your backbone? Where's your spine? I don't know. One of these times I put orange bitters in your martini, which is classic and you snubbed it. Mutual friend of ours that you used to work with Andrew at Gus's. He's working at a bar in the neighborhood and I walked in there the other day and he clocked to me before I clocked him and he goes, Hey, Tim, good to see you. Martini. I'm like, yes. And he goes five to one. I said, yeah. And he walks off, starts making it. And he goes, comes back to me and goes, is it regens around your store orange that you don't like?

57:38I'm like, great memory. Good man. Regans way to go. Andrew, gulf and bomb. Good dude. Good dude. Good guy. Um, so yeah, a dirty martini. I think that obviously the brine is going to, um, you know, stand up to that savory nature of the drink. If you wanted, maybe you could garnish this drink with a, with a, you know, an olive and an anchovy. Mm. Tie it together a little bit, like, you know, almost a hilda. Yeah, yeah. Like we used to do with Andrew over at Gus's. Yeah. Um, and then the drink, I think I want to pitch to go for us from sauce. Because I do want some citrus. Because I do want some salt. Let's make a daiquiri. But let's make it dirty. Hmm. Um, I have for a long time been a big proponent of a fresh made daiquiri, just lime juice, sugar, rum, shaken vigorously strained with a salted rim. Hmm. But let's go ahead and put some brine in this as well.

58:39Make a dirty deck. Dirty deck. You can come up with a name, but I'm going to say, um, a solid hefty two ounces of white rum up against three quarters of an ounce of fresh squeezed lime juice up against just a half an ounce of simple syrup. And then let's go in with a quarter of an ounce of olive brine from your favorite olives. Beautiful. I don't think you need to do the salted rim like I do when I have a daiquiri these days. But I could also still see this being served with an olive. Lovely. To kind of like warn slash remind the imbiber. You know, I can imagine how that would sort of confuse me in a good way, challenge me. Yeah. Well, because also like how many times have you reached for whatever innocuous things, not even alcohol, how many times have you reached for a glass of Coca-Cola that was sitting there and you took a big ol' gulp of it and it was iced tea. Now, this doesn't mean you don't like iced tea. It just means that what a shock that was. So I want some kind of reminder that this isn't just your regular daiquiri. You're going to be like, you know, spit taking.

59:40Mm-hmm. So yeah, the dirty deck or the, uh, you've had the aviation before. This is the aviator. Perfect. How do you do that? You come up with these names right on the spot. So back to that imitative salad from the, from the, from the, from the sibling, no less. So I want to actually bring some value to the personal anecdote that I told earlier as well about Andrew and not just like indulging my hatred of Angostora Orange Bears in a martini. I like the product. They, the, the bar in restaurant itself is called Trudies, just opened in Carol Gardens here. Yep. They have a menu, a martini that just thinking about it right now would be perfect for this. Okay. It's a split base of gin and vodka. You're already, you're already pissing me off.

1:00:40Sherry takes place of Vermouth. Mm-hmm. What kind of Sherry? Dry Sherry. Um, I can't remember if it was mentioned might be Fino, but you know, pretty neutral, dry. The garnish, I think they're cast of El Trano olives, but the signature ad from them, they top it with chicken schmaltz. Oh, like this little dot. So you got like little dots, three little dots floating on the top, which I thought was brilliant because it was salty, savory, flavor, some slightly oily, right? We've seen this as a trend over there in the East Village at Schmuck. They do a really nice like olive oil top on it. I love it. It coats your, your lips and adds a new dimension to the drink, but good extra, extra virgin olive oil is, it's very like herbaceous and green and peppery and whatnot and like, you can't drink it. This schmaltz stuff like you could, I could do a little shot of it.

1:01:43Yeah. So I thought, yeah, they offer that on menu, small or large, coming soon to Trudy's, the chicken shot. What kind of chicken shot place is this? Well, yeah, I can see it and let's not confuse the listener. We're talking literal drops, literal from a eyedropper. Yeah, it's not an oil slick on top of your cocktail. This is a technique that's been happening for quite some time, but it's, you picture just like three or four maybe little drops floating across the top of your drink. So anyone who's based in New York, maybe living in Brooklyn, head over to Trudy's, Andrew might be behind the bar, just say Tim and Sothe sent me. Yeah, that's right. Do that. That'll freak him out. All right, Sothe, well, final question for us here today, as we always like to ask, what is someone making missing out on? And I think especially true for this dish, if they never make a chicken Caesar salad from scratch at least once in their life.

1:02:45One of them missing out on, you're missing out on taking a pretty small set of ingredients and making this is a true definition of greater than the sum of its parts. There's not a long list of ingredients here. Most of them are pretty much pantry staples as the origin story dictates, being able to bring them together in such a way that became known for being opulent and fancy and is now sort of known as just De Regur. But then winding up with a thing that just hits all the marks. It's crunchy, it's crisp, it's creamy, it's acidic, it's salty, it's got some umami, it's got some fat, it smells delicious with the chicken on top. This is a dish that um, I don't know, I'd like to say that it's more exciting than maybe at the top of the show I was even thinking of it as. That's where I'm leaning, I'm thinking. The dish has a little bit of penache that it's maybe been embarrassed about itself, but

1:03:45that's how it started. It's one of those things that's so ubiquitous, you just don't see it. Yeah. But when you start looking at it. And ask yourself the question, yeah, when was the last time I purposefully went out and said, I'm going to make a Caesar salad today. Right. And I'm going to dial in every little ingredient of this. Yeah, I think let's try and you know, make Caesar cool again. Yeah. Cutlery optional. Um, all right, so there we'll then that leaves us with only one last thing to do. Time to put on the apron. Break out the shaker. Wait, that's two things and let's get cooking. And drinking. Cheers. Cheers, buddy. Sauce is recorded and produced by the Coaster, an independent podcast network based in Brooklyn, New York. Huge thanks to Charlotte Ager for designing our show logo as well as the beautiful illustrations on our digital recipe cards.

1:04:47And thank you to George Miada for composing our awesome theme music. Good chisel. Big thanks as well to all of our partners on today's episode. Please head to the show notes to check them out. We truly couldn't make this show without their support. And speaking of support, thank you to our premium subscribers, especially our founding tier backers from Kickstarter. And finally, thanks to you listener for joining us on this journey. Until next time, let's get sauceed.