Champions League preview & new female coaching rule

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people, so when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, company revenue, so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn ads generate the highest B2B return on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Replacing hard to reach light bulbs and more.

1:01Subscribe to Home Care Plus for just $99 a year and consider your to-do list done. Members give more it-loves. Available on select zip code zone will cancel anytime, non-refundable fee, product purchase required, terms and service restrictions apply. Details of Lowes.com slash terms. Subject to change. Court of Finals week. Huge games to kick off things in the first legs, including Arsenal against Chelsea and plenty more. Plus some really big stories in the global game with FIFA. Bring some new rules into play on female coaches. We'll get into all of that and lots more. But first, let's say good afternoon to Ellen White and good morning to Jen Beatty. How are you both? Good afternoon and good morning. How are you all? Good. How are you? How are you, Jen? I'm very well, guys. Good morning. How was your, like, Jen was poorly last week. So have we got you back at 100% voice?

2:03I'm back. Were you sticky-sticky-shoeing last week for the friends fans out there? No, it was sticky-sticky-shoeing, lots of tissues. It was awful. And we were talking about this before, Ben. I am not, I'm a complete baby when I'm not well. I am not much of a, I'll just get on with it. I can't do it. I'm a complete baby. I was struggling, but I'm especially in this job. Your voice is like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talk about football now. When you're a player, you're just going to go out there and go on with it. No, I'm like, no, it actually can't use my voice. But I'm back. When you get poorly, what do you do? I just say in my mind, right, that you can completely debunk this and tell me that I'm being a mother. In my mind, players don't get ill because you guys are such finely tuned, athletic machines. Like, when you get a cold, you're just kind of like, now, shrug it off. Do you still get poorly in the same way that everyone else does when you're at the peak of your powers? Yeah, you just crack on. It's just crack, God. Yeah, you can't breathe. You feel awful. You just keep playing. Does it keep going? Is it annoying when you're ill

3:03and you maybe have a stinker because you're running it like 50% and then like fans are like... I'm always 100%. She just wasn't. She's had an absolute stinker today. Wasn't at it. Are you like, well, I did have the flu. I enjoyed it when I got COVID just before the Uros and nobody asked if I was all right. And I had to come back in two weeks. No one asked if he was breathing, all right? Do you feel all right, Ellen? And just you haven't scored for three games. So could you crack on and then the less you reach, those are just start for England. So, but don't worry, I just had COVID. So, I'm just going to be shocked. This goes out. Honestly, it always makes you laugh. I've triggered you out. Oh, I don't know why it isn't scored in three games. What's going on? Well, probably because I'm... I'd go with it and... But don't worry about it. So, I'll just still run around for 60 minutes. Like, excuse me, I still hold the record. I'm actually good, really. But don't worry about it. But yeah, play still get poorly. You know, they have a lot of wellness apps that they fill in heart rate. Oh, really? I used to crack me up though. I love how we can put this on last night, because you could rate the worst wellness score ever.

4:05You'd walk in and then they'd like, do you still want to train? And every single player is always going to say, yeah. Yeah, you need to take it out of the player's hands, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually have a thorough examination of the player. To be like, are you actually well? But yeah, you're not going to not train, though. Unless you are, obviously, you know, you can't get out of your bed or something. That's the me too well, doesn't it? It's the meeting of this idea of, like, everyone must take care of themselves, be super mindful of these fine margins that can make the difference. And then at the same time, your coach looking at you and being like, are you actually not kind of trained today? And you're like, oh, train, I'll be training. I still do high-speed running. Don't you worry about that. It was the classic. Like, if you didn't train, you'd be so anxious if someone else trained well to your spot. And that was it. I feel like that was always, everyone wanted to train. There was always that nervous energy of that, but unless it was COVID, unless something literally ruled you out or someone said, you can't come in because you're contagious and everyone else will get sick. There were the ones you'd stay at home. That's probably the only time I think I would have stayed at home. Because then you actually affect other people.

5:07And when you get into that point, it's like, okay, you're not thinking about the team. Now, I totally get that. I'll bore you all day on this, try to get all of the secrets from behind the scenes. But we haven't got to talk about the Champions League first and foremost because, as I mentioned, maybe a couple of weeks ago now on the pod, we've just been absolutely spoilt with the way that the draw has fallen. Can I start by asking the game that you are most looking forward to over the course of the two legs out of the four quarterfinals? Well, I'm covering Arsenal Chelsea, so obviously I could have just said that. I can imagine the BBC. I imagine if you're like, I'd be wrapping it up. I'm looking forward to it. No, I'm looking forward to every tie because I think each one's got a bit of bite and something about it. But yeah, it's going to be really tasty. Arsenal Chelsea. I think in particular, probably the second leg with all their players coming back. Liam Wolfsburg, I think, will be really interesting. You know, they're so dominantly on. Wolfsburg were much better in the second leg against Juventus, much improved. They're falling quite behind to get, you know,

6:08by a Munich in their league. So this is huge for them. By a Munich man United, you know, I think that's an interesting one. By a Munich, I have enough phenomenal season. Man United, probably the depth at the moment is probably their issue, but they're still getting the results that they needed, especially the weekend. And then El Classico, I just feel like that is Barcelona's to lose, to be honest. I'm actually commentating on Arsenal Chelsea, so I'm always going to be looking at that. I think what I love about this one though, Arsenal haven't won back to back against Chelsea since 2016. It's the most played fixture in the WSL, but they've never played against each other in Europe. Someone let us tap back. Okay. I'll let you choose that. When I read it though, I was like, that's crazy. You've never made each other in Europe. And I get it. I was in that dressing room where we always wanted to beat Chelsea. And then when I read that, I was like, yeah, that's how it felt. Did he, he hadn't, did that come to mind? So you don't come to mind. Like, you're not, when you're in the, in the dressing room, you're not necessarily aware of that because everything's happening so fast.

7:09In the moment, it was, it was definitely felt like a stumbled and blocked. You're talking about Chelsea have become the, you know, the most dominant force in domestic English football, I think, in terms of winning trebles and dominating the WSL. When I was at City, I didn't feel like that. I felt pretty successful against Chelsea. But when I went back to Arsenal in 2019, there was definitely, you know, we always felt short against them. But it was because they were so dominant. They had signed incredible players. And I feel like, I don't know, Chelsea have kind of benefited from not being in that last round of 16 bypassing that little awkward spell that they've had. And now, you know, winning a bit of silverware, I think has boosted them coming into knockout rounds, which I think is really important because again, their form hasn't been what we all talk about. And but again, winning a trophy, the first one that they can win in a season that I think was really important for their confidence. But I think the fascinating one is, it's over two legs. It's super important for Arsenal to get a good start at the Emirates. But another one, I can't wait is, is Bayern Manchester United? I think I've absolutely loved the link up

8:10between Clara Bull and Punilla Harder at Bayern Munich. I think Clara Bull has a, you know, a huge stat on assists. I think it's eight. I have got my stat pack out, Ellen. Thanks very much. You're welcome. I'm working on it today. It's like, I think I'm just like... Is she... I think she's going to be out. Yeah, Clara Bull. It's available. So, like, that is so frustrating, I think, just for... Is that okay? Yeah, just for the wider, kind of, football space, I think you want at this stage all of the very best players, like, go ahead and hit it. And the thing that I would absolutely love to see is just her going 1v1 against people at this stage of the competition. And I think she's, she's still rehabbing from that calf injury. But you think potentially maybe they make it to the semi-final. Can they get her back to the semi-final? You want to see her playing in these big games to test herself and see what the level is that she's actually at. Especially because, I think, Manu and I had early on in the lead phase were so good defensively. But when they came off against Warrig or Leon, conceded quite heavily.

9:11So this is, like, quite a... It's a massive mess for Bayern, but almost like a bit of a saving grace for United. I think, regardless of how this goes reunited, I think the way that they've performed so far in Europe has been brilliant. I think they've completely changed the way that we talk about them in a sense of they deserve to be in the highest quality of football. But this, by far, I think they just should. Hopefully they've learned so much from those games in the league phase against Warrig, Leon, that you cannot get away with being in that large of a goal deficit in knockout football. You just can't come back from it. We've seen, obviously, people come back, but three, four goals max. And even if you do that, it's a huge feat. So again, over two legs, really, really difficult. So I'm looking forward to that one. Do you know what the thing is there on those... Having those deficit, the emotional energy required to overturn a deficit as well is massive. It's not just about putting on a good performance. It's almost about having the strength of character to understand that you're going to have to just go and go

10:11and go and take so many risks in a second leg. And I suppose for Arsenal, that will absolutely be front and centre in the first leg. They can't be, in any way, out of this game. Not to say that Arsenal don't have a very good chance in this game, but just in terms of the first leg, they can't afford to be going to stand for a bridge in a deficit. They can't, but they have done it. You don't want to be in that deficit. You don't want to have to be chasing a game. So I think they've got almost sharp shoppers. I sound really London there. I'm from Muffinshire. They need to, yeah, it needs to be quite a conservative, I would say, game at the Emirates to have something to hold on so to take the stand for bridge. And then hopefully they will have Catley Ford, Cooney Crossback, maybe even Leah Williamson back. So back to full strength for them. So I think they've got to put in a big performance. They've done it before multiple times in Europe as well. We saw it last season. And then on the other hand, you've got Chelsea

11:13that are missing a lot of players as well. A lot of injuries had to change and chop and change the back line. You know, and also, you know, in and around the midfield and front lines as well. We saw it last season against Manchester City. They turned over that deficit. So I think for both of them, they don't want to be conceiving a lot of goals. So I think I think it'd be quite cagey, yeah, just with the personnel that they have available. And they might be completely wrong. And they both absolutely go for it. It's just a goal set. Yeah, that's it. That would just be absolutely incredible. But I think they're going to want to have want to have something to hold on to to take to Sanford Bridge for that second leg and knock out for when then anything can happen. And they have to go for it then. Let's talk a little bit about Alessio Rousseau. Now, we have done this conversation. I want to apologise and advance to our listeners. We've done this conversation a lot of times because I can remember us last season doing a big deep dive on Alessio Rousseau and what she gives you as an out-and-out striker, which she gives you as a number 10. And there's been an article on the BBC Sport website that features a lot of stats and data

12:14around where Rousseau is at her best. And I think, Elz, you're going to talk about this ahead of the game. Tonight. So I'm not giving that way. I'm just going to give us too much your way. But can we maybe take the angle of, like, if she does play in the 10, what is it that someone like Lexinia skips you? Where do you potentially gain from having Rousseau in the number 10? Well, actually, in the last two games, they face Chelsea, they've both played together. So, Blacksenius, he stretches that back line and occupies a centre-half, which then opens that space for someone like Rousseau. She's scored and assisted in both of those games as well. So that'll be really interesting where there are any slagers goes with both of them in a European game because these are both in the WSL. Yeah, Blacksenius will run, she's hard work and she really starts the press. And then it opens up the pockets for Alessio Rousseau to help and create, if you remember, they pressed really, really high on Chelsea in the league

13:15when they won 2-0. One back the ball, I think it was Catley on the car. Then it was straight into Rousseau, out to Beth Mead Goll. So I think that'll be in the back of the minds of Chelsea. They were physically very dominant over Chelsea Arsenal. So, yeah, for Rousseau in that position, it worked really well. But then if you flip that in European football, she's been playing the nine and she's been phenomenal. Top goal scorer in the league phase. Jen, who would you rather face going into this game if you, it's only going to be one of them playing through the middle one off the shoulder of the last player? Who would you rather be coming up against if you see the team sheet and you're thinking, oh, yes, I'd rather that than that. Wow, such a good question. We've seen Blacksenius and Rousseau in the nine. Yeah. I mean, that's tough because they're both so difficult to come against in their different ways. Black, that's really hard. Who would I rather? Do you want the game in front of you? Yeah, I like to answer your question, probably Alessio Rousseau.

14:15But not any deficit that I think she's any easier. I think just from my personal preference because they're both so difficult, trained against them, trained with them. So I know exactly how it feels. But Alessio Rousseau, for me, loves to drop into the pocket, stays central. I think Alessio was reading that article from the BBC and the references of how often she stays central. I think it was like 97% was in a central zone. And that, for a center back, is more straightforward because you're not getting left, right, and center. Steena Blacksenius wants to drag you into the channel. She wants to open up the space to create other people. So if you, but if you like that, if you like that player for player marking and you can, you know, I guess, keep up with that. And other players do their job and close spaces and don't allow that to happen. But Steena Blacksenius, it was so good at also running off your back shoulder and catching you off guard and creating something from nothing. I preferred having the game in front of me. So for Rousseau, I wanted to drop into the pocket. I was quite happy to follow her in, try and keep her backwards.

15:17But that's when her skill was so good. I've spoken about this before that when you do go in with her, behind her as a center back, she was so good at taking that one touch and spinning on it. And that's where she's so good at keeping the ball alive, switching it from side to side to play. So this is no disrespect to either one of them, but if that answer your question, I'd prefer the game in front of me. So it would be Rousseau. But this is where Rousseau has become so valuable. She can 100% do both. And that's where I think slagers is so fortunate to have those tactical differences with whoever she plays can benefit whether who they're coming up against or how the game plays out. That's how they won it. Unless your Rousseau started and Steena Blacksenius comes on, does something totally different in the final against Barcelona, catches them off guard, they're in the Champions of Europe. I think that's been, that's where slagers has done so well. She's managed her squad very, very well this season. I was just going to say she's just so deadly now. Alessi Rousseau playing that nine and in and around the box, I haven't seen her run the channels as consistently as what we've seen before when she runs those channels and with there's no one in the box.

16:18She seems to be in and around that 18-yard box, six-yard box and just heading area ability, her movement. If you remember that Leon go, she's just constantly on the move in between like Wendy Renard and the back line, just bouncing, moving, moving, then there was like Beth Meade a tiny little pass in between and I feel like she's just got better and better. Same against Real Madrid when she played, when it went out to the wide areas, whipped to in by Chloe Kelly. She's on the move all the time, watching she's offside, then she's onside and you can't see her, she's on the back shoulder. So I think she's just so much more deadly now as the nine and learn experiences. Obviously, Kelly Smith is part of the coaching team as well and who better to learn from. But when they are together, it's a different option. But I just think that her being that vocal point is so important for Arsenal. I love it when you get to this point in competitions and when the team use drops now 15 before, you're immediately trying to sort of fordchess it in your mind.

17:19It's not fine, like broadcasters. It's horrible for broadcasters. It's like, just like let me do a little bit on this. So you don't actually, when you're broadcasters, you don't actually get the teams like super early. Very occasionally, someone will be really kind that you know at the club and be like, by the way, just so you know that thing that you're worried about. This might happen or whatever. We shall never end. Yeah, they were always remaining anonymous. But you do get the team news. Maybe not that long ahead of when you're about to to broadcast. So you are scrambling really quickly to work out exactly how it's going to play out because you want to give the best possible information that you can. But at this stage of the competition, there are these tiny little tweaks that could affect the game massively. So even that conversation there, it could, we could predict one thing for the next couple of days for certain positions or games. And it would only take a minor change and it would completely throw the whole thing out the water. If you do want to have a little look at that article on the BBC Sport website, at the moment, I mean, you zip over.

18:20I don't need to tell anyone listening to this how to find that the women's football section on BBC Sport. But it's called what is Rousseau's best position and it is so in-depth. Joe Bradshaw has written it. It's a really, really lovely piece. It's got loads of depth on there and it makes a number of kind of analytical arguments around where, unless she was at her best. And it obviously changes with England as well. But this is very much kind of focused towards the Champions League. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn ads generate the highest B2B return

19:22on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. And consider your to-do list. Done. Members get more. It loves. Available in select zip code zone will cancel anytime. Non-refundable fee. Product purchase required. Terms and service restrictions apply. Details of most.com slash terms. Subject to change.

20:24BBC women's football weekly. The latest news insights and analysis from across the women's game. Lucy Grounds, welcome back. What one line is do you think would make the best rugby player? Me? Listen. With the BBC Sounds app. BBC women's football weekly. With Ben Haynes. Ellen White and Gen BZ. Listen on BBC Sounds. Let's just touch a little bit more on united and buying. Much like the the derby coming up at the weekend, this feels like another one of those opportunities where men united have to show up and have to prove that they belong at this level. And they, as Gen mentioned, that the league phase, they certainly did that. They changed the narrative around the way that we speak about them. I think up until, I want to say it was only one defeat up until November in all comps. Yeah, it was. Could be up there. It was. And that moved the needle so much in just in terms of how they were seen, I think, Gen. I can't agree more. And I think that's what's been so impressive.

21:25I think when it's, because let's not forget, I don't know if it's a reflection of how competitive the WSL is. And that's where, you know, we haven't seen them in Champions League. This is their first season playing in it. So everyone is always a big test, especially when you're Champions League football and why we love it is because you're playing against other champions in their own right from their domestic season. And the games are not open and it's how can you show up. And the Champions League has been more competitive in its own right, turning to league phase. And there being more fixtures within the calendar. So for this to be their first season and perform so well, we were always intrigued to see how Mark Skinner would manage a squad to see how they would grow into it. But I do think they're the Wolfsburg and their Leon fixtures were a big wake up calls for them, which was the beauty of league phase. You were going to come up against Giants early on. We saw Arsenal play Barcelona in their opening game. So for Manchester United to have those key tests, I think have been massive per se when they did come up against Athleticomodrid, for instance, and bypassed them pretty straightforward. But now they have been so impressive.

22:27I think one thing I will always look at is defensively. And to not concede, I think, even until November, I think it was been. I might be wrong on that one. But even to not do that in Champions League level is amazing in its own right. So and what did they need to do over Christmas, Trenton and they brought in Leo Schuler, Lungfist and top player. So it's just about going to the next level for them and improving year on year. If they get passed by our Munich, this conversation gets even bigger. But I think what they've done so far well and truly deserves all the compliments because they have impressed everyone, I think, in European global football watching this, watching this competition. Do you reckon on any level, if players at Man United and people involved with Man United that have put in a huge amount of graph over the last few years, but particularly the last six months, I feel like, how many times do we have to prove that we're a big side? Yeah, no, I do feel like that. And it's a difficult one for them because it feels like they're constantly having to prove that we're up there with the top four.

23:27We may not have as much. I don't know, funding and backing, but we're constantly on that tightrope of right there and then they maybe don't quite get over the mark against Chelsea. They've obviously, you know, lose against Wolfsburg who are like massive tightens in European football as are Leon. So, you know, putting themselves up against those teams is really important for their experience as well. So, you know, they've obviously been in the WSL for a number of years, gaining experience and within domestic football. But this is the debut season in, obviously, the Champions League. So, you know, for them, it's all about gaining experience and putting themselves and pipping themselves against the best of the best. And I think they've more than proved themselves to obviously get through to the knockouts and now into the quarterfinals. So, for them, I think it's amazing. First year in Champions League football, where can they go? Where can they go from here? How much backing are they going to get? Collectively as a group, that togetherness has been phenomenal. What my skin has done. The recruitment in January as well. Hopefully they'll get me a sour back for the second leg.

24:31But yeah, I think they can be hugely proud of themselves. But for me, they have to get Champions League football next season. They have to. As much as, obviously, you want to be getting as far as you can in this competition. You know, I'm sure for them, they want to go as far as they possibly can. But they've got to get in the top three in the WSL as well. That's got to be a huge priority. The only thing I just wanted to add to that. And, you know, I understand if they were frustrated by, I guess, broadcasters not putting him in that bracket. But it's difficult when you see the likes of Russo move, leave, go to Arsenal, Mary Irps, leave, go to PSU. That is a natural thing for broadcasters to then think, right, well, you know, where's the investment going to come? But you have the likes of Mylard, who's performed incredibly well up their game massively. You know, one of the top goal scorers for Manchester United this season. But them strengthening over and one qualifying and then strengthening midseason and going from, you know, game to game and improving every single time. That for me is why they are back in that conversation. And then, Genua, you're absolutely spot on in terms of their defensive performance.

25:35I think up until that game against Wolfsburg, it was just two goals conceded in the Champions League. And that includes the qualifying campaign as well. Yeah. So they'd gone through the mini tournament phase as well. They'd conceded that one goal to Brandon and a goal to PSG. But that was part of a two-on-winner, Old Trafford. It'd be interesting as well to see if there is an impact in terms of playing at Old Trafford. They'll go to the second leg at the Allianz. And I think the Allianz is currently looking like it's sort of 15 to 20,000 to get sold already. So they will be fighting that atmosphere as well. It'll be another side that will be looking to know that not be put under too much pressure that first leg absolutely crucial. Remember, you can follow five-level commentary of Arsenal against Chelsea on BBC Sounds. If you're on the move, you can listen via the BBC Sounds app as well. Or you can simply ask your smart speaker to play five lives. So the fixtures coming up in these first legs in the quarter-final, Wolfsburg at home to Leon, Arsenal at home to Chelsea at the Emirates. Roman Druid at home to Barcelona and then Manionite at home to Bayern.

26:39Manionite at home to Bayern's at Old Trafford. And then it flips next week. So on the Wednesday of next week, Bayern Manionite at Chelsea against Arsenal, Barcelona against Roman Druid and then Leon against Wolfsburg. Just like a change of a change of tack here, we're going to mix conversation up just a little bit. A bit of news coming out of FIFA. Every team in FIFA's women's world football tournaments must now include at least one female head coach or assistant coach following the introduction of new regulations. So requirements will come into effect during the under-17s and under-20s women's world cup and the women's champions cup competitions this year. So at the 2023 World Cup, 12 of the 32 head coaches were female, including the England manager, Serena Vigman. In the WSL, three teams were currently comply with those FIFA rules. Only a third of WSL managers are female or two clubs don't appear to have any female head coach or assistant coaches. So I think straight away, the first thing to look at is that this is quite a significant shift.

27:41The fact that clubs will be required to comply with this will mean that there will be movement and reason for change very, very quickly else. Yeah, so in terms of FIFA, they're not just encouraging, they're enforcing this now, which is obviously a huge shift in momentum to obviously want to have more female coaches and head coaches in the game, which I think is a positive. But with that, you need a lot of structure, a lot of infrastructure, funding, coaching pathways, education, support and opportunities. And that's not just in England, in the UK, that is global. So for me, it's a huge positive in wanting to, I would say, help grow our game, help grow the opportunity, help grow the opportunities for women in coaching roles and head coaching roles, but globally, there has to be more infrastructure, more funding to help with that across the whole world. Because obviously, we don't want that to be a tick box.

28:42We don't want that to be a person that's not having the experience, having the coaching badges, being able to thrive in an environment and make a huge impact in those international environments and international teams. So for me, I think it is a real positive, but there's a lot of processes that need to happen to make that come to fruition. And for me, it's about those players, if they're retired or, you know, anyone wanting to go into coaching and then for them to have a huge impact and feel valued in their role, if they were to be an assistant or a head coach. So it feels like there is very much to two sides to this, right? In that the massive upside is that you create pathways, as I've said, and that also there are things that female coaches will be able to do for female players that certain male coaches just can't do. And that is totally fine. There's unique skills that people will have. The other side of this is that when you mandate something,

29:43naturally, it will always bring into question whether you have people in the right positions because they are there for the right reasons, as opposed to because it's been mandated. Yeah, and one thing I will say, I hope that is reviewed. And it's not just it doesn't become that. I hope it's not a tick box and everything is just left and thinking that's going to be perfect. I hope that those positions are reviewed. There's given enough feedback. Everyone's on board with, you know, still making sure that the game is moving in their professional way that everyone wants it to. But number one, it's going to improve inclusivity, which we all want in football and reflection of the population of female athletes. And I, for one, definitely couldn't wait for, you know, the generation of to have a coach that had been there, done it at the top level and seeing the likes of Bompastor or Kelly Smith in these roles. I think it's amazing. So, but I think as everyone's saying, the pathway is probably the most important. One bit I loved about the sort of announcement that was made was that the programs

30:44are going to be aimed more at women. I'd be really intrigued to see how that would look in terms of coaching and qualification because I'll openly admit I haven't done my coaching courses. So I wouldn't even know how the differences and how that would be more adapted in whatever way they would. But I think it's a step forward. I think it's one of those processes that everyone wants to work out in the best possible way. And I like that it's coming into effect for under 17s, under 20 competitions, you know, as soon as possible pretty quickly so that then come the World Cup. It will be in place and it'll be ready to roll. And I think I think it's a huge positive for the game. I think fundamentally there are not enough women coaches and I think everyone wants to see those numbers go up and this will help it. I think we need a little bit more time to get the right person out, being given the right opportunities and being given the right experience as well, to really thrive in those environments. So yeah, it's incredible what female coaches and head coaches can give to players, that relationship, that communication, that empathy.

31:47I'm not saying that doesn't happen with male coaches. You know, I've been coached by a lot of male coaches and they've given that, you know, Rick Passmore for instance is literally the shining light for that. But yeah, to have female coaches at the top of our game, highlight invisibility, female empowerment, having a huge impact using their voices and showcasing their talent is really important. You know, we've seen incredible female coaches in our game. We've got one for the Lionesses, you know, Gen Scotland. They've got a female coach now as well. You've got Emma Hayes at USA. So, you know, a lot of countries are doing it. It's making it global and giving the opportunity globally to grow our game and grow like you say, the talent pool of coaches to have that opportunity to go into an international environment and thrive and give their experience, their expertise in whatever that may be,

32:49because obviously it's a coaching staff as well to be part of that and hopefully have a huge impact on those athletes, those players, but also the staff as well and in around them, having those conversations and having real intricate details in different parts of what makes an international team grow, develop, learn and thrive. So, I think it does need a little bit of time. We don't want it to be Egypt, we don't want it to be, you know, instantaneous. That's why it worries me a tiny bit that it's happening so quickly in the under 17s and under 20s that we don't want to just be like, right, let's just get a female in and we don't know what they actually do and I don't want that to be a thing. I want them to be there for the right reason and they feel valued as well. I think it's a great starting tool, I think it's really positive. I think we just need a little bit time just to get the infrastructure right, the funding and just to know how of how this might work and look like for everyone globally. If I just quickly use Rick as an example, because I was listening to your pod the other day, if you haven't listened to that podcast, which is Elle's catching up with Rick

33:52last summer in Alicia Layman, it is such a wonderful listen because there are so many things in there that I hadn't even considered definitely around Alicia Layman in terms of her journey. But also just in terms of your relationship with Rick as well, you can hear so clearly that you had total trust and this unbelievable sort of connection there and how do we left the mics on? You might have done that eight or nine hours of just chatting away. But I'd imagine, and I don't want to speak for it here, but I'd imagine that he would certainly agree. There would be things that just through his lived experience that he wouldn't be able to know for you, that he wouldn't be able to give you that maybe a female coach would. Yeah, definitely. He's at Leicester now and he's bringing in like a new crop of coaches and coaching staff that again in experience and he's kind of drawing on those their expertise, female and male. And I think having a head coach, people within the international environment that are okay with almost giving control to other people that are the forefront of

34:53their expertise or their forefront of sports science, nutrition, menstrual cycle, pelvic floor. I could go on. I can't think of any off top of my head, but they're the ones I can think of. But I think it's really important to have the right personnel in those roles and in particular, having females that have experienced, you know, that journey as a woman, in particular, but then maybe they have played previously, maybe they've played, been in different sports, they can really draw on different kind of aspects of their life and draw on different aspects of a female footballer as well. But I feel like it just comes down to communication really and having that collaboration together. Do you get the impression from your kind of peer group, so people that have recently retired, that they're easily a pathway for them if they want to go directly into coaching at high profile side? I think coaching was always a pathway that was offered and I always

35:54felt really grateful for that. And I think players around me, I think the PFA, I'm sure Ellen can attest to this, the PFA were amazing in terms of offering courses to players and giving that pathway. I can't say how that feels to be on it because I never did it. Coaching was never a forefront for me. It was never something that I wanted to step into. But I've played with players, Leanne Crite and being one of them who's gone on to professional coaching in Scotland and has had experience Leanne Ross as well on the Scotland national team set up. I know players who are currently doing it and I don't want to name them in case they don't want it to be public, but from he makes a play with a club level that are currently doing it or are, you know, are pretty high up in terms of the qualifications they've achieved and would be no surprise at all to see them step into that pretty quickly after they retire. So yeah, I do think the pathway is there now, but you won't see those players in the positions for another few years because they still have to get the experience in what would we call real life outside of playing. So that part takes time.

36:55I think there's one thing getting the qualifications, but the second part is, you know, having a pathway getting the experience under the right people in a professional environment and you won't see that, you know, until unless players can get it at the club they're at, which is important. It's important to have that collaboration between club, PFA and national team set ups if that is clear because players need to know what they want to do also. I think that's the responsibility that we need to take on as well and not do it late. I feel like this is a conversation that we're going to have to revisit in a year or so's time and like really looking to where those coaches have gone in and where they've been able to have an impact and whether those players that are now in that pathway are able to utilise this as a way to get that experience and they'll be bringing so much value to those teams that they're joining. So we will chip back in on that. Let's just find you very quickly have a look ahead to the weekend. Manchester Derby, Old Trafford, Citywood in the reverse fixture everyone in the season, you can get that on five live and BBC One on Saturday, one 30 kick off and then on Sunday, Chelsea, Estonville are also on five

37:58live, 12pm that is and then we have the international break after this weekend. So so much to come in a very short space of time and I know I always say this but it feels like the last result that you have before an international break carries so much weight. So for Man United we've already kind of mentioned how important it is for them to make sure that they get this period right with the way that City played against Spurs at the weekend. Do you see any sign of them slowing down in this one in what is a huge Manchester Derby game? Honestly I think City looked too good for me. I think the the way that they have performed all season long I will always talk about the benefit of not being in Champions League so they get that extra bit of rest. I think they're dominance at the top of the table speaks volumes and I think this might be one game a little bit too much because I think Manchester United is focused, I don't think I might disagree but it's going to be on Bayern Munich and naturally so but it's a really tough game to have before an international break because like you said everyone wants to go into feeling

39:02like the best but I also think there's a benefit of if a game doesn't go well you have the beauty of taking off that track suit and putting on another track suit and switching that mindset and sometimes it can be a benefit but either way it's a Derby a huge you know iconic Derby with that said and both teams want to go in winning it and nobody wants to go into an international break off the back of a loss and also see players you've just played against the new in your national team that's always a tough one. I think you know you would rather just have the the points on the board wouldn't you really but for them they they have to start racking up the points and and being in those Champions League spots but on the other hand they want to progress as far as they can in the Champions League so I think the priority is obviously Champions League and then they will look ahead to WSL Champions League FA Cup it's just crazy for them the amount of competitions they're still involved in but what an amazing place and spot to be in as a footballer but I think their priority will start with the Champions League but then they have to start getting points back on the board obviously it's a disappointment obviously when you're having to chase you know the teams above you but it's all in

40:06their own hands and if anyone wants to slip up and they were at a game momentum that'll be huge for them in the race for the Champions League spots. Yeah I can't afford to not be in the Champions League positions but I feel like we say that for all of those four sides it's come the last game in the season feels like it's going to be absolutely massive and right so after ribbing me on your pod this week do you want to end the pod you want to say my line that's all for us and that's where we'll leave it on the women's football week this week thank you so much to Jen and tell you know what I'll give another little plug I know I said this how you want if you haven't already listened to it jump onto the feed there's some amazing stuff on the feed we go and gather these extra interviews so that you can get a bit of an opportunity to see things behind the curtain as well and a little look at how Leicester doing things at the moment at a really really difficult time was was fascinating so jump on that that episode and have a listen to Rick Passmore and Alicia Laman with with Elz and in the meantime plenty more for you to get into. Also coming up on the feed this Thursday Everton's Katja Snuse talking about her endometriosis diagnosis as well so make

41:11sure you look out for that and then we'll be back next week with a real rundown of everything that's happened over the course of the first legs in the Champions League and those crucial fixtures in the WSL as well we'll see you next time to reach light bulbs and more subscribe to home care plus for just $99 a year and consider your to do list done members get more it loads available on select zip code zone cancel anytime non-refundable feed product purchase required terms and service restrictions apply details of most comm slash terms subject to change at the BBC we go further so you see clearer with a subscription to BBC dot com and the BBC app you get unlimited articles and videos add free podcasts the BBC news channel streaming live 24 7 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries

42:13from less than a dollar a week for your first year read watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling it all starts with a subscription to BBC dot com and the BBC app find out more at BBC dot com slash unlimited