Buried Memory: The Session That Changed Everything

0:00What if the thing that finally set you free was a memory you didn't even know you were carrying? Tara and EJ are therapists, partners, and parents who thought they'd already done the work. Then a ketamine session cracks something open, memories that reshaped how Tara understood herself and how EJ learned to love her without trying to control the outcome. There's a conversation about safety, surrender, and the freedom on the other side of letting go. Five days without sleep, nursing every hour, rage that I'd always suppressed. And it was really scary because I couldn't use my techniques, my adaptive techniques anymore because here is life and it's Ron Ugliness. You're listening to the Life Shift Podcast. I'm your host, Matt Gilhuli. This show is built around one simple idea that sometimes a single moment can change how we see everything. Each week I talk with someone about the moment that shifted their life and how they learn to live differently after it. These are not stories about having it all figured out. Their story is about what it looks like to keep going once the story changes.

1:02Thank you for being here. Here's today's story. Hello everyone. Welcome to the Life Shift Podcast. I am here with Tara and EJ. Hello there. Hello, hello Matt. How are you today? You know, I am on a vacation but I did not want to reschedule this so I'm so happy to be trying out the Life Shift Podcast for the first time in like 280 plus episodes somewhere other than my home. So thank you for being a part of this show even before we have the conversation. I feel like that's unique too because I were the first guests. I feel like I'm the first. Yeah, thank you for making us feel unique. You know, the type A person in me is panicking that like the hotel Wi-Fi is going to do something or you know, it's going to mess up our conversation but but then I remind myself how important these human to human conversations are and how there are people out there that could be listening

2:03at just the right time in their life that they feel maybe less alone in their circumstance or they think about their life differently just because they're hearing a conversation between strangers that hopefully will end up having this really interesting conversation. So it's all good. Yeah, well thank you for doing what you do. I love those conversations. Listen, I really, you know, before I did this podcast I think I logically understood the power of story but now I understand like in my heart the power of story and how when I hear or contribute to a conversation on this podcast how it heals parts of me that like I didn't even know still needed healing and it just shows me how much we actually do have in common even though our stories are wildly different like I don't know that I could specifically relate to your story

3:03either of your stories but the way we feel in certain moments and certain parts of our stories are so relatable. So you know it's it's always it's like selfishly a pleasure for me to just be a part of this. Well I think I mean it's it's part of like what we do in working with couples is like I think we we grow we evolve through relationship you know and when we come to know somebody and we know their story and we connect with it and then we see the way that they move through it and then and how it affects us it's just it's like another grapple point you know is relationship just allows us to level up I mean it's it's pretty incredible I mean it's been credible just the two of us together just sort of grappling up through life together through some hard times wonderful times and here we are. You know the life the life shift is I naively went into this thinking oh yeah everyone just has

4:04like this one moment in their life but I think my opinion is if we're lucky we have lots of life shift moments and I use the word lucky intentionally because even though my main life shift moment was really hard for me I have grown so much because of that experience and I would not be this version of myself and I'm sure you two would not be the versions of yourselves you are now it had you not gone through particular life shifts in your life. Absolutely absolutely we are here for many reasons. Yeah. Yeah those life shifts. Who yeah yeah and if we're lucky enough we can reflect on them and learn from them and become different people because of them. So when they're unexpected right yeah well sometimes you know some people have a lot of them unexpected this one felt unexpected. Oh yeah the one we're talking about oh yeah it was super out of nowhere yeah. Well before we get into that maybe each of you can tell me

5:06who you are in 2026 like how do you show up in the world how do you identify and Tara you go first however you want to answer it. I am a partner to an amazing man business owner of two businesses Accounting Center in Tucson and our coaching and podcast business. Mama 4 blended family twins are 12. Mama 4 for babies. Just yeah like every my roles are you know like clinical supervisor, my marriage and family therapist, train other therapists to do really great couples work by using our story and kind of what we've gone through which I think people love like that's how people you know find us they like thank you for sharing your story in our podcast like just hearing from people all over the world like saying thank you we're not uniquely broken like that storytelling is huge I had no idea how powerful lots of roles but my biggest thing is I just

6:07turned 50 and can say I just hit menopause like I feel like that's like a whole different like life now so like navigating that too. Yeah you know yeah I apologize but the first thing came to my mind was congrats but I don't know why. In some ways because period menopause was brutal but so yeah that is 2026 that is I'm sure I'm forgetting something oh I really care about my health and wellness so I also you know I try to do hot yoga and strength lifting and I still do my own IFS internal family systems work with my coach every other week because I just continue to grow always so just like constant self awareness trying to be healthy while also enjoying some wine on the weekends and yeah that's where I'm at. I like it. Pretty good thank you. All right. EJ how do you show up in the world these days like how do you identify? I'm a man trying to learn how to experience joy. I would say that has been my

7:10wake early where I'm like showing up this year is learning how to experience joy. How do learning to be a steward and not a controller? Good luck. Yeah. That's a challenge. Yeah learning about the importance of faith and closeness to God. Coming from a life where that was like a very like almost I was cynical and told all on the other side of that trying to be happy around the people I love I would say like that's you know in the midst of running a business and figuring out this whole media thing we do and not you know wanting to do some cool shit in the next you know 10-15 years of our lives and not be African robot. So yeah but joy is my big thing is like a human being trying to experience joy is something I'm working on. Yeah well kudos to you. I think that is a

8:17challenge I think for me as I think about that I don't think I was ever taught to find joy in something I think I was expected to be happy about things but I think that was completely different than then seeking the joy and creating a life that has that joy within it so I hope you find it I hope you're finding it and if I've found it a couple times in the last week and I'll say it's pretty good. Yeah I'm so happy for you. I growing up I did not I knew that everyone no one wanted me to be sad about losing my mom and so I was allowed to show that I was happy right like oh Matt smiling and playing or I was mad I wasn't allowed to be sad I wasn't allowed to be all the other things that came along with it and now I'm 45 now and now it's like finally I can just I can feel however I want to feel and all of that's okay whereas I will say this no one told me

9:22but that was what I took from people that they needed to see that I was you know and plus they didn't they didn't have to grieve themselves so like how they're going to help an eight-year-old you know go through that that kind of stuff so when I hit 30 something I figured that that whole world out and and now I get to talk to people like you guys about life just about like experiencing life in all it's imperfection because I think those pieces kind of make it the most interesting so anyway thank you for sharing a 2026 versions of you I'm sure it's every evolving and tomorrow could be a different answer so whoever wants to go first I love for the guest to paint the picture of the before version of them so going back as far as you need to to kind of give us who each of you were before this life shift moment or moments that we're going to kind of center today's conversation around maybe I'll go first because I feel like it kind of happened to you

10:25and I witnessed it and lived with you through it so is that okay if I set the yes it's interesting though because in my mind like the life shifts I'm like twins blended family was the big one and then the ketamine was the second one so it's like I I'm trying to like oh how do I see it I mean so I'll bring it up to the ketamine because I mean I think we had gone through a big life shift and that I've been divorced we met we fell in love it was awesome had a lot of fun we had split custody with my she was really great with my younger boys and then we had twins and and kind of life went into chaos and so and they had like colloquial for like for nine months and they've been their 13 now but they've been intense since the minute they were conceived I think was like the zero to four kids in a year and a half that was like what just happened yeah but we had sort of like found a functional dysfunction within it

11:26and you throw in like a business and a podcast into all that as well and so so as we went into it like things were like I don't know like I feel like they were kind of like held together with spit and tape and and like yeah let me stop you for a second I really I don't know if this is going to resonate with you but I'd love to know like the before version of EJ like and the before version of Tara like who you were as people before this moment because I think that's as humans I was I was holding on by my fingernails always uh growing up no I mean I was a I'm up I'm a I'm a I'm a pleaser I'm a don't notice who's upset figure out a way to to like keep the peace middleman control try to please everybody yeah in this like

12:31I'm not controlling but really I'm controlling sort of way controlling my own emotions not necessarily always being honest probably a word or something it was adaptive to I don't know I want to say like anger yeah it wasn't fear it was just that's like that's what got me through it's what actually brought me some success here and there it's what made people like me I was steady you know I'm pretty unflappable externally were you living life like the checkmark like you were in to me it's society's checklist of like you did what you were supposed to do and then you got promoted and then you got a good job and then you got a nice house no no no more like more like doing my own you know I've always had businesses since I was young like since I was in my 20s I started my first company media company in LA after working for a record label

13:36for a while definitely always doing my own thing okay but sort of like emotionally isolated like how so like like protected yeah protected not very transparent of what I was feeling no joy not willing to show if it if it was kind of ugly at all okay yeah thank you's my idea so you would say not in a negative sense but like you wanted to know the outcome you wanted to control the outcome I wanted to keep the peace trying to keep everybody happy trying to keep terror happy trying to keep my parents happy trying to keep my kids happy not really trying to keep my ex happy but just kind of trying to just like keep her arms distance how about yourself yeah not very great probably thought I was maybe but keeping myself steady for sure okay good to keep myself steady maybe eliminating a lot of highs and lows got it and someone from the outside would

14:41probably think oh he's living a good life yeah I would say so I think from the outside most people would think yeah very very reliable very dependable very easy to get along with social yeah not not not one I don't make I didn't I don't still I don't think I don't make a lot of waves before this life shift moment that we're gonna eventually talk about would you say that you live to happy life yeah but happy but controlled internally like guardrails yeah got it little little always lonely out of safety maybe I'm sorry I'm totally projecting yeah no it's okay it's all right out of safety again more out of out of like adaptation got it out of like grew up with somebody with some in my family was very intense angry so like I think I I learned to be sort of still still like

15:46not like you know kind of like like metaphorically still right like don't don't bring a lot of attention to yourself yeah because you don't want to stoke the fire if you will yeah the reason I'm asking all those questions for me very much everything I did was kind of people pleasing in the same way but I was just afraid that my dad was also gonna leave like if I wasn't perfect and so it was the fear of abandonment even though he never would have but the fear that okay you know I live this beautiful life with my mom and suddenly she was yanked away so if maybe I didn't do something right and so I just took those on so that's where all that questioning has come from but it also gives me a good feeling of you I feel like there was an underlying fear of abandonment but but instead of like but in this weird way like I'm gonna control my emotions I'm gonna maybe try to control your emotions a little bit in order to keep there being something that's gonna blow the roof off of all of it and then it's gonna be over I was in a lot of fear I think about Tara

16:50bailing I would I would say because because I I perceived her as sort of like fragile and reactive and you just mentioned that you had that little bit of loneliness so I would imagine too definitely you had that if you have a connection you don't want to lose it yeah no because I always loved her very much that I wanted to be with her would it make sense Tara for you to tell us the before version of you give us a sense of you I'm kind I love love I've always been a very kind person even in really bad circumstances like even when I was little and I I have a twin sister Sarah and we had a lot of trauma abuse sexual abuse physical abuse awful neglect starvation I was still like I loved people in humans and I just I've always loved joy I have a joyful spirit despite circumstances but I would say I learned how to get because I didn't have any stable caregivers

17:57and I had two dads that kind of left me one when I was eight and then the other you know I left there because of his alcoholism like I learned how to get guys to love me really good by being a little chameleon like I would be the perfect girl for every guy and it was a really good picker I'd pick pick really smart good looking guys who were like really smart like MIT Harvard good looking but didn't know they were good looking so emotionally safe that would not challenge me and then if I got bored I could leave first so I was a serial monogamous up until of course I meant Ej and I tried to break up with him and he wouldn't let me and I was like oh my god he's actually standing up for himself this is awesome I I want to do life without with Ej I was like I think it wasn't I didn't let you I let you and you didn't like that no you're like I'm not gonna stand around and wait for you to do this gamey thing that you're doing anyway so yeah I was deaf oh go ahead I was just part of me thinks of like that serial monogamy it's what you're ready to

19:00leave when it feels like I was in control total right so if you didn't want someone to leave you because that would have no no no no no like yeah okay totally and so I would always pick like emotionally unavailable guys like not emotionally smart more like the engineer the finance guy where it's like what and and then I would use sex like I'm so good and bad like aren't you just obsessed with me like I would get guys to put me on a pedestal very quickly I mean I know now what that was and what on met need that was and how it wasn't consciously manipulative but I kind of like before the life shift I guess like I you know had like yeah I want to do life with Ej he had this emotional availability to him that actually felt good now in my late 30s and then you know we transitioned to the right zero to four kids and and like you know I think for us like like sex I hadn't zero sex drive and that's when I kind of started to lose I guess the person

20:02I'm explaining and I was like what's happening like I can't I don't know who I am anymore like I don't feel desirable I can't get Ej to like he doesn't see me on a pedestal anymore he sees this anxious mess like I have always held my shit together for guys who see me as this like you know whatever perfect and here's Ej seeing me five days without sleep nursing every hour rage that I had always suppressed and it was really scary because I couldn't use my techniques my adaptive techniques name work is here is life and it's Ron ugliness yeah did you want to run at that time oh many times I got in that minibian we had to buy and I was like off to continue to see my twin sister and then I would stop because I have to nurse the twins like but I really love I know I do hence that was like the start of us developing what we have now it's been 10 years because of our own stuff but yeah it was it was really hard it was really hard and we were

21:03in a in a way it almost sounds like you both had this element of controlling your life and controlling the outcomes of your life would you say that's true yeah yeah and I think that I was together it was all scrambled because yes neither of us should work and I remember I was so mad Matt because I was like Ej he finally an emotionally safe guy he's aware and then I could feel his like anger and defensiveness that he didn't even realize he was aware of but I'm so susceptible to that and I remember I called him a Buddhist mother fucker I'm like you are you're a fake you mother fucker and now I have this life of all these children what have you done to me what have you done to me I thought I was literally like everything I thought was true is not because Ej is showing up now in a totally different way and who am I what just happened to our like awesome sex life right everything else in between before things got hard yeah but yeah I mean it sounds like real life showed up in a way that was uncontrollable if you

22:10will or the way that you guys are used to controlling your own lives were like like Ej just said not not quite meshing in the way that you wanted them yeah yeah yeah so does it does it bring you to this precipice of of of a moment where you feel like this is this is it or yeah no like it was it was just an unexpected random thing okay wasn't like kind of such a little bit yeah so so we do a lot of like in services at our center we bring in you know other mental health agencies and stuff and I had a guy that I went to grad school with he was starting like a psychotropic integrated clinic right where they were using ketamine what was the time period just for this is 2022 okay right around so yeah we're yeah so yeah so we're functioning better we have a couples counseling center we are doing better but but but the defensiveness the sex piece was still

23:13still yeah totally I was like don't look at me as an object like right that whole thing that I had like I am this is why you put me on a pedestal like that wasn't even me anymore so that's so he so he comes in he doesn't in service and and and he's like well we you you know refer a client to us and we're like I was like you know I know a little bit about ketamine but I don't know a lot and he's like as like we can't really refer if we don't know what the heck we're dealing with here and he's like well why don't you and Tara come on we one of the things we're interested in is facilitating couples and going through a ketamine experience he's like you know so we'll have a therapist some therapist there we'll have we have a nurse practitioner it's medically supervised why don't you guys come down we'll give you you know it gave us like a really great you know rate because you know it can be kind of expensive and so he was like you know why don't you guys do like four to six sessions and check it out and see what your experience is like and they had had this amazing experience going through it when they got trained in it and they're like it you know it's really life changing in this really positive way and so we're like okay and so we

24:17literally like had like our oldest son drop us off at this ketamine clinic we had no idea can I just say we took an uber home I think yeah I can't even smoke pot like I'm so scared of like because I just like think someone's gonna murder me like I'm just so like on our honeymoon she yeah the whole other story she thought I was gonna kill her and Costa Rica no more pot for me but anyway but watching too many date line episodes yes I love it that is my jam and so so yeah so we go and we do this ketamine experience yeah it is with no hesitation like a little I was a little scared but because we had two therapists with us guiding us sitting right next to us and it and we knew it was a 45 minute thing that it lasted and that they were starting with a small dose okay like okay yeah and I'd done a you know I messed around with engines when I was younger so I was pretty pretty comfortable with it like yeah like let's go yeah I was going for a ride and the thing is we had both done like our own work individual therapy always you know like I knew I

25:19had trauma and I was like yeah man I've got my abandonment issues but I'm working through them I read my suit Anderson book like journey from a band to dealing I've done my EMD or whatever you know I just what else could happen right I just want to be in a walk right there like you see the death star and then you're just like I'm like cool so yeah so so little did we know what would happen it's like a little hard to talk about still like my little body still shakes like even before knowing we were talking about it I was like oh if you had to talk about this again because most people want to hear about our podcast or what we've developed not like that part of it so it's still really hard and it was but four years ago it's insane yeah anyway only share what you're comfortable it's sharing too yeah for sure I mean it was really cool in the beginning because it kind of right if anyone has tried ketamine if you know about it it kind of just like blocks out it's like you're it blocks out the gatekeeper so whatever we want to normally do like I'm

26:21a caretaker and a people please her and I want everyone to feel really comfortable some like really good at strategizing how to do that like ketamine knocks that shit out it's like I could feel myself wanting to cry and I was like oh I don't want to ruin EJ's experience because he was right next to me but I was like fuck the tears are coming I can't fucking control this and I was like EJ I'm sorry but I'm crying and he's like I'm on a rocket ship and I'm like oh not me and so already I'm like oh I couldn't do my things right my coping strategies to make me feel safe so that other people are safe and so the first one was like it's interesting because I didn't know that this is what it could do but I was my twin and I right it's always been OV Sarah's my twin and just like took us it took me when I was eight years old and I could I was outside she was more of the reactive one and I was the good one so she would get hit a lot more and I would be like behind the door like trying to get in and it took me back to that place like I'm so sorry Sarah that I

27:23can't be in there with you and and I guess like what I'm 40 something and I had no idea in my body I was still like she's this amazing person she's got an awesome husband great mom I was still holding all of this like internal responsibility because I couldn't make her stop being so angry and rageful when she was younger at my stepdad or mom and I was kind of like I woke up and I was like fuck dude that was awesome I had no idea I was like she's okay like I don't have to hold that anymore it was like yeah it was like it woke up like that but the experience of you going through because I heard it oh yeah that was was horrible well yeah it's like it put me right back there and I couldn't get in the door which was interesting because I didn't know it could do that so but then I woke up and I was like oh my god that was awesome okay great and then okay let's go in for our second session do do do a couple weeks later couple weeks later again EJ is like oh this is awesome and I'm like okay we really like this is awesome EJ

28:23yeah it was very pleasant experience okay I'm sad to say the first the first the first couple where I was because eventually I stopped doing it okay because like on the third one she had a horrible yeah horrible experience and I like sort of pulled myself out of the experience to go over to her and and support her through it and so but yeah I mean for me it wasn't you know I you know it wasn't negative it was like it was just kind of a you know it was a whosinogenic experience it was just kind of fun good for you yeah so yes so then I'll just really quick I want to get too fast but like the the second experience was like I knew my stepdad had you know molestin me one time and I knew who was drunk and I I knew all that I've talked about it in therapy he probably thought I was my mom I didn't even know so anyway I'm in this other second one and now I'm like six

29:24years old like it kept like when I'm younger and younger and right obviously it's way more times in that one time but like as a little girl right we know how to compartmentalize and survive and however trauma stored in the system I didn't know as an adult it was more times but I figured probably but I was younger and so again that was just more of a like oh my god okay like of course like okay so there's just like there was just more to it it wasn't anything like it's just yucky and you know you know my stepdad is just a gross man but it was more of like it was more than once and then I was you know place me back younger than what I thought because I remember when I was eight when he did that and I actually told my mom about it I didn't know it was also happening when I was six they got married when I was four so then okay great okay the third one I must now I'm gonna be on my rocket ship dude now all my little traumas I gone through this shit crying sobbing so then the third one was crazy because I had four or five right I'll just say I just started

30:32like there was something really bad and I couldn't get to it I was like I can't there's something really bad happening and I don't know what's gonna happen and something really scary is happening and I I couldn't get to it but I screamed out the Palmer the Palmer's the Palmer's the Palmer's and I was like what the fuck are the Palmer's right so I remember it was a scary situation but nothing crazy happened but I went home and I don't talk to my mom a lot but I was like mom like do you remember a Palmer like the Palmer's like is there any Palmer's like that I went to when I was little she's like oh yeah the Palmer's children's hotel like we would take you and see her they're all of the time and I was like really I don't remember that but I feel like something bad happened there I don't know I just I so I called my sister and I was like see her to remember the Palmer's she's like not I she didn't at first she's like no I do remember that I said okay I just was like I don't know why that came it came out of nowhere Matt

31:32so then the next so then the next one was when like somehow my little I think I was maybe five but like it was let's just say that Palmer's children's hotel was a cover for massive like childhood sexual abuse and I got and so it's interesting because yes bad things happened there for sure and I don't remember faces I know they were old men I know that my sister remembers I was always locked in the room they said I was napping I was screaming I was crying I was like I'm gonna die I had all that ketamine experience like with I was literally grabbing onto the therapist screaming and holding on for dear life I think EJ was holding my legs down and then I got up and I was like I can't do this anymore because I didn't even know like I probably would have lived my whole life not knowing that happened and there were a couple people that committed suicide that I learned later on that went there but for me like so I did tons of trauma work after that just

32:34some EMDR and kind of like shock in my body because I know it was young I was five and they had me in closets and did bad things but it like changed the way I saw myself because I used to think like I'm a really like anxious person and I used to judge myself and think like there's something wrong with me and I think it helped me to have compassion for myself and put puzzle pieces together like how I like sex really early on like the self soothing piece of it like all these things just started making sense and I remember that some of the abuse happened under fluorescent lights and my whole life I've been I get exaggerated startle responses under fluorescent lights and then I was like oh my god that's a pie so it's like I'm so grateful for the experience because it put all these other pieces together like also tears in my girl parts when I was young and I didn't know what had happened so I was like so grateful for it but not only that like it helped I think EJ and I because we were

33:40having that stupid low desire high desire partner thing after kids like I don't want to have sex like but it made me realize like I don't think I've ever felt safe being sexual with someone who's always like this is this is just what I do like because it's your need and so that's when like everything changed and I could start to feel free because I think EJ understood it better it wasn't like I was rejecting him it was like truly I wasn't even in touch with my own sexuality it was never safe and I didn't even know I was bracing or closing my eyes during sex I just I don't know it's a lot so that was that was the life shift it was and then I was like what I because I've always worked with I've put away child predators that used to work with children of sexual abuse I put mother fuckers away you know I had no idea the extent so I also was like wow I like I didn't realize trauma could be stored so tightly in a little person's brain and in a good way for survival yeah

34:40and I had never gone through that cut of me again to this day I would never know never there's no way and I can experience it I will go home now and I'll drive past the house where it used to be and I remember certain things I remember getting really sick and throwing up in the hallway like I start to have little memories but I was five or six and then I just get like wow how did it's like you know I didn't have you know my mom was very mentally ill so she would just drop us off and and that's what they pray on right like kids who are from socioeconomic low places where like they know they're not protected yeah and I think they knew like me over my sister because my sister was way more reactive and like rageful like sometimes I'm like why me and like did it really happen like I think those things like that couldn't have happened I should for surely remember that and like it doesn't even matter at this point because that for me I know like a put puzzle pieces together and I can't answer for easy but it changed everything for us like you know and even when

35:40we're working with couples where there's been right a lot of sexual trauma like one partner is like okay but we just got to get through that and it's like no you don't you have to be patient for this process like you can't force you can't force safety like the end that was and that's the biggest gift I think we help couples with is like you can't force emotional safety you have to have this way of being with the words truly genuine like you have to truly drop into your hearts look at your avoidance look at your defensiveness look at your anxiety and and kind of bear all in a transparent like loving way so that you can actually feel free like you said you had your freedom and like in your 30s like it feels really fucking good I had to wait until like 40 something but it's okay yeah I'm I'm first of all I'm so sorry that you went through that and knowing not the ketamine piece although sounds very scary as well but just as a child I mean we think back and we you've had children I I have lots of friends with children and you think about how they can experience

36:45life with such bright eyes and going into everything and to have that stuff down but what was interesting about what you said was how you were able to block all that yet it seems like little pieces like seeped through because you ended up doing things to help people along the way in that had gone through similar things or putting people away so there's like something the human mind and body is so fascinating and wild and I still can't imagine what a ketamine session was even though you just explained that I'm frankly afraid of what I might uncover about myself but I am curious did it feel like that for you EJ watching this unfold like what did that as a partner as someone that has gone through this journey with her before and now like what did that feel like for you it was I mean it just it fundamentally changed the way I related to her I mean I

37:51look like her you know was she saying like you know all of a sudden things started to make sense things made more sense things that I had taken personal like walking up behind her to give her a hug and she yeah she startles anytime there's any level of unsafety like emotional unsafety between us how she looked at me like I was a monster and you know and like like that just always I took it so personal and it made me I got reacted to it and I judged it and then all of a sudden it all like made sense gosh even like EJ was losing his hair and like I knew that some of the men were bald and like his and I didn't know why his bald head or like a white t-shirt like I would like I couldn't even look at him and now I get it like it's just crazy how our brain processes yeah

38:54and it yeah totally I mean that that was the thing and then also like how important it was going to be for me to figure out how to create safety between us and how important it was going to be for me to love her and accept her wherever she's at and why it was so important that like you know like when because like Tara is this like amazingly like bright loving fun individual but I see her dark side more so than anybody else I see the the sharp and how important it was to her that I could hold space for her even in those moments and this is to this day like you know like yesterday or something you know our 13-year-old daughter was driving her to the brink of insanity and I was just like trying it and like that like she needs me creating safety for

39:59her in all moments and and that and so it kind of up to my like I got to figure out like how to work on this defensiveness I have to like I have to really be able to like you know like there was a moment there was a couple of moments that preceded this that were really like life changing for me of awareness with Tara around like you know that that feeling of like okay whatever we have right now maybe we're struggling with intimacy maybe we're arguing a little bit more but whatever I have right now I'm grateful thankful bless to have that like it got me sort of like into the moment that's big there's with her and then it also there was a moment where I can remember in the kitchen I walked up to her and said Tara if you're not happy with me if if like this doesn't work that's okay because I just want you to be happy yeah and like and and it was genuine because you know

41:05and it was the glass thing in the world I would want but it was the beginning of some release of control and pressure in the system of like that I have to figure out a way to create an environment where Tara actually wants to be with me and instead of like if you don't that's okay yeah and then it just like provided also just like this deep level of like I really like it was never like sympathy it was always like it it multiplied my love for her I would say it did you this is such a I mean that was a beautiful moment and now I'm gonna say did you ever consider running because you couldn't control it no no hell no hell no no yeah to me that feels like it frees up your ability to to love her more if you're willing to let her if it's if she's gonna be happier doing you know something different

42:05and you being okay with that that says a lot in my opinion it like it it had to get there and I and I I think this is like it changed also the way I look at couples a little bit in that like and I've always like even when I was in a different place faith wise I've always had this awareness of non attachment but was probably and I like was such so beessing myself about my actual ability to practice non attachment because that was the ultimate non attachment was like I am attached I love you so much I want to be with you I want to preserve our family I want to preserve everything we're doing together but I'm okay I can let go of of controlling it and just see whether you begin liking me again your Buddha self whether you want to like and not a mother fucker self whether you yeah I mean so it was a big road it was the beginning I think it was a beginning of like worth some of the work I'm doing right now is it made me release controls yeah yeah well and I

43:09think it almost allows her to love you more because you're not trying out this projecting again but like I think you know when when we're trying to control situations and we need someone to be there and we have this attachment but if we're truly feeling like I want you to be happy and live your life above anything else above my own happiness I think it opens the space for someone to love you more because you're not trying to hold on I mean you are but you're not forcing the hold on that makes sense and you could I could feel the genuineness of it it wasn't just words it was like a truly like heart shift and that meant everything to me like okay because there are couples come in and it's like they're on opposite teams like this didn't feel that way each is like I want you to be happy you deserve this and and that and then you were right that like ability to give and receive love freely that's what happened with us then because there was no pressure to the system to

44:10like make it a certain way and be a certain way and no conflict or conflict now it's like we have conflict with all good we're gonna get through with our kids know we're gonna get through it we let our kids know you know you guys go be a kid we got this you see us go through it all the time we got this because Tara would even say there would be moments where we get in these arguments she'd be like don't you want me to be happy don't you want me to be happy I'm not happy and I was just like I was like yeah I want you to be happy but I want you to be happy in my way she do like and this is where I was like well screw that I was like all like care honestly like all like care about is that little girl who went through all that shit never has to be forced into anything she doesn't want again because it also made everything clear about like these other because there were some guys she dated there were nice guys but there were other guys who treated her pretty shitty and there and there were other people friends or or business stuff or whatever where Tara's like ability to take care of other people would allow

45:16people to take advantage of her kindness and I was like I don't want to be that I don't want to be another person who takes advantage of her kindness or her sometimes passivity like you know I don't I you you you went through enough shit you don't need to go through more shit with me because I'm being selfish and shortsighted and controlling how do we get that message across to couples without having to have a ketamine treatment. Well you have to break society down. I think I think there I think there are so many fake examples of couples and whatever way they look of what a happy couple or partnership looks like I think it's you know I what you're describing now this version I don't know the ins and outs but what you're describing now of like no one's trying to control

46:18the situation we're showing up because we want to we're here hard easy indifferent because it feels like this is what we want versus you know we got married so now we have to stay together you know my dad's been married multiple times and he was choosing people you know my parents were divorced but he's going to kill me for saying this but my parents were divorced and you know it was because he was young he wanted to play softball with his friends he wanted to do things and just be a be a guy in the 80s you know doing whatever and so when my mom died it was like well now I got to find a new version of her and so he was just picking the women that would you know that needed him and as soon as he found himself happy with being single and his life and every this that's when he met his current wife and they've been together the longest out of every they're like and it's beautiful

47:19to see but it had to come to a place in which he was fully content as a human like fully content without so I mean it's kind of not saying that you were this way you Jay but letting go of that control probably gives you so much freedom to be kind of whoever you are and want to be would you say that's true yeah for sure to have more joy but also like like to stand up for myself in healthy ways right instead of ways that were kind of like indirect or what other people might want you to do yeah exactly like now because we have like a difficult moment I don't know like a month or two ago we're like tears like you're being defensive and I was like you know what I'm actually not I'm just standing up for myself and I felt like and it felt good I'm like and you may not like it and that's okay but this is like but this feels different yeah yeah would you say Tara that like that experience allowed you I mean because it sounds terrifying it also sounds

48:24puzzle-making like puts pieces together makes you understand why you might have done things the way that you did and compassion for yourself do you find yourself feeling more you or more in tune or is that too cheesy to say like no I love that or so I just love how you like interview people you feel so safe it's so easy to talk to you and so I just want to say thank you for that Matt I would say like yeah I'm like I don't have discussed around sexuality my own like masturbation like things like I just never thought I would do like feel like I just feel free like in I don't have to be a certain way at trusting I just trust that everything is okay you know and I used to have these catastrophic thoughts like at some point something really bad is going to happen like catastrophic thoughts and I get it now like that fear of death is huge for me it always has been I used to when I

49:24was a little girl right when I didn't know any of this every night I would wish on a star that my grandma wouldn't die because she would give me food in the morning like so I'd be afraid of death and people that gave me foods like please don't die and so now I still have my catastrophic thoughts because I will that is just a part of me but I'm able to be like oh I'm okay like I am safe so I just have the safety piece so now like when we get into our which feels good because I don't I'm not dependent on external circumstances now to make me feel safe I can be like oh having that awful catastrophic thought and but it's gonna be okay kind of embracing myself I have more compassion for me instead of trying to like make other people more of a priority outside of me even though I'm still the last to put away my laundry and that's okay I'm the first I got to put that away it's important to me I don't know why no I mean I think I think that's important I it's so cheesy to think like oh I can be like fully me now but it kind of feels like you maybe

50:30feel that way I can be just for me or for Tara both because so crazy really quick because that reminds me I'll be like I'm allowed to be angry it's okay because I never was allowed I was the sweet girl and if I was sweet and happy I get that and so I'm finally like I'm allowed to have a voice and even with my kids right now like me will try to like dismiss me I'm like okay for a while she's a child here I just being a adult right now but it's like that it's okay to have a voice like I'm learning now how to regulate that because it's like just this child who was constantly like minimized and traumatized like could not be anything other than what people needing me to be so now I'm like yes I am allowed to have anger and anger is okay as long as it's right it's that empowered place so sorry go ahead I just go ahead I mean yeah I think that I'm still like figuring that out I'm you know I think like I didn't have as much of a cathartic moment as terror around that you're on the rock trip yeah I was on the rock so I'm still trying I'm still

51:35working on that I'm still working on like being you know I think I'm like sort of like still figuring out authenticity mm-hmm I guess I'm still kind of it and it's like such a weird thing to say like 50 frickin three but I'm like I'm still I'm still working at it and I'm finding a practice around it yep I just started a men's group that I that I'm doing called men who do who do the work and that's there's something about that that's more authentic than anything I've ever done so cool I've heard that a lot yeah my first my first business was with like these two friends and I was always like kind of like not always my ideas getting to run and kind of making other ideas happen and and I'm quite honestly our counseling center and relationship renovation was greatly Tara's idea and her passion and I've been really good about like kind of running with it and helping make it happen and this this men's group I'm doing right now is the first thing although Tara

52:36did push me a little bit towards it but it's but I've like it feels sort of mine it feels like I'm doing this and that feels really authentic and then talking to other guys about what is what we struggle with and and how hard it is to to carry what we carry and how lonely it is and how oftentimes we feel like we're walking alone like that that level of honesty and then supporting people in it is really helping yeah I think you know from a guy's perspective I think so much of at least my life growing up I was just very trained to be performative in the way that I was supposed to show up whether that was in a professional setting or that was a personal setting whatever it was it was like you need to show up this way and at some point I guess maybe around the time that I started this podcast and hearing all these stories is like like you just said Tara like I can be

53:42angry and that's okay like and I can have a bad day totally okay if I acknowledge it and say you know today's a bad day it's not always going to be a bad day I've had bad days before you know and I can get through this it was kind of that unlock for me so I can imagine what that men's group feels like because I think there's so many guys that have taken on what they fought society expected of them as men and maybe we're starting to I think maybe in 2026 we're starting to break that a little bit but that's generations of for sure hot mess it's like oh yeah like women will be like I need emotional safety from my husband and they're like what what is that even name I need to know is it come on you guys as we patient like yeah yeah yeah I think yeah we've all just kind of I won't speak for everyone but I think there's a lot of us have just assumed all these things that maybe it weren't true yeah that we had to do and it's gonna take a while to break it and

54:44some people will never break it you know they're just stuck and it could be trauma it could be just they don't know any other way to do it but yeah from what I've had yeah well that's those life-changing moments right where we were presented with an option like what do we where do we go with this I mean sometimes you know well even you know even if happens when you're a kid right like you got years of evolving through that life-changing moment yeah I say they're lucky we can if we're lucky we make it through or we're able to evolve from it but I know a lot of people I know that haven't had the resilience and it's not their fault you know like it's really hard when you're in or freezes them for like their entire life yeah I mean 20 it took me 20 plus years to fully I say fully people don't like that but fully grieve the loss of my mom and I look back and I'm like man I didn't have to go through all of that but at the same time when my my grandmother

55:46my dad's mom got we got really close she became a best friend and a mom figure and all those things and because I failed for so long grieving my mom when my grandmother got diagnosed with cancer I was like I know what to do like I know we're gonna have that final conversation and we have that final conversation I knew when I left her apartment after that conversation that if she had died that night there was nothing that I regretted nothing left on the said I spent the last five days of her life by her bedside in the hospice and I have zero regrets it was the most yeah devastatingly beautiful experience I've ever had but I know for sure I wouldn't have had that had I not stumbled like had first one I was like right if my dad was like yep we know exactly what to do let's go talk to a therapist and you're gonna go through all this stuff I don't think I would have cherished such a beautiful experience that it doesn't have with my grandmother and watch her last breath I mean

56:47a lot of people shy away from that so you know the life shift moments if we're lucky enough to find the way to process them healthy in a healthy way you know like your experience that could have gone that could have gone the other way you could have had that ketamine experience and then lost your shit and like totally you know so you have the tools you had people around you whatever that may be yeah to be this version of you um-hmm gratitude it's a pretty good version no matter how no matter how old you are gratitude 52 82 we've had couples coming in their 90s that never even and they're just like a sick of each other because they can't hear each other anymore it's like you go that is freaking awesome like it is never too late just that and then it's also having the compassion for the people who can't get there because they are frozen or they don't have those resources you know like they don't get to become best versions of themselves because of so many different factors but like compassion instead of judgment right like you're just changing what

57:49hold on a second mr. judgey pants you know so anyway would you say that this experience made you not just a better partner but do you think a better mom or a better sister or any of those everything okay all of it yes just um it made me understand where I get stuff and it also made me understand like why I get somewhat overprotective of my daughter because I don't want people sexualizing her the way they did me and I get some hypervigilance around it so yeah absolutely I'm always growing around it in some version especially because our kids are constantly changing and you know she's starting to wear a very short shorts I'm like I you know but I'm not coming from a control place that's a boundary place now like hey instead of control where people are like my mom we always had to walk on eggshells it's like hey my boundary is this right and so it feels better versus control which kids don't like control sucks no but do you share your story with your kids

58:55they know not that they don't know that story they know that they know that they know is rough rough childhood they know Sarah and I yeah because my sister and I were like best friends and so we get one worth each other they they know we didn't eat a lot they know we had some they've met your mom so they kind of know the sun's a little off it's a little yeah I only asked that I just think of myself when I was eight and like I wish I'm not I am not pushing anything I wish people had talked to me about what death means and like what all the pieces mean so I was just curious if that's you know something that you think you'll share with them someday or well I the biggest thing I share with them is like first of all they get like our son our Mia and JoJo our twins Jo's very like he's a caretaker and he'll let you if he notices like something's wrong with me like mommy mommy are you okay mommy and I'll be like

59:58oh Jo honey yes like I'm totally okay I got overwhelmed today I'm overstimulated and sometimes my brain feels like a bowling ball in my head but there's nothing that you've done and you don't have I'm okay I want you to go do you and then around like when I lash out or I'm not my best self I always come back and I say let me just tell you what happened I got triggered by this it reminded me of this and I and I'm trying to help them understand when I don't regulate and how I come back and I regulate so that they learn how to regulate sooner than later too so that I share I just it's more of the like sexual trauma details or the physical abuse because I I don't know I just feel like they yeah not yet but yeah we're always helping them like I see you caretaking you don't have to do that and my daughter our daughter got diagnosed with OCD and so we've yeah just like rock stars helping her through her her her OCD is something bad's gonna happen to me so she would she wouldn't even

1:00:58be able to go in the bathroom by herself and so we would okay so it's like interesting does she was she born with that my mom has OCD I'm sure I have OCD like wow like imagine like you know if I don't know just she has the same type of catastrophic thoughts anyway yeah no I get that I've talked to a lot of people including someone I talked to last night about like the whole idea of epigenetics and the DNA and how things can come along I I got some of my grandmother's trauma she had a really rough childhood and you know the person I talked to yesterday his grandparents both survived they were personers in Auschwitz and so he grew up always having a fear of death and and all those things and so I'm sure generational trauma yeah it's just but I love that you're talking to your kids about the good and the bad of what's happening in you as a human like yeah I'm not a perfect mom no one should be a perfect mom I'm not a perfect human I'm just me you know

1:02:03and showing up in the world is really refreshing to hear because I think there's still a lot of parents that are they don't they don't show all the all the parts or explain it doesn't it doesn't help build resilience for our kids they kids need to know and then parents have to apologize like I wasn't my best self I'm really sorry like I fuck up I get it wrong you know like it's so it's so refreshing oh dude yes I catch myself pretty quick yeah you catch yourself and we what does always talk about it too I'm pretty transparent with our kids oh hell yeah oh yeah sorry I'm gonna talk to you especially well professional messa rapper well I mean I think it's so beautiful this conversation one because this is you know only my third time talking to two people at once but this is my first time talking to two people like yourselves I think this is a really it's a really lovely experience for me to kind of learn from you and learn how you guys interact

1:03:06and how one moment for one of you affects the other in such a positive way I mean I think that that is is really beautiful and I'm sure you do that on your podcast all the time and talk to your to your people so thank you for just being a part of this such a pleasure conversation yeah thank you for hearing and sharing stories of people from all over like it's just so connecting and we're not uniquely broken no we're all in it together we got this exactly for not uniquely broken we're all broken so if someone were to ask like if if 2026 versions of you two could go back to that ketamine offer is there anything you would want to tell those versions of yourself before you did the ketamine get ready for the ride literally you're gonna make it through it you can handle it absolutely I think it was a little disorienting and it would have I think to tell myself like hey you guys are gonna make it through you got this shit this is actually gonna make you stronger yeah you're

1:04:12like how that's not yeah I don't know I think of a lot of people I I talk to and I kind of ask a similar question I'm like and they're like I don't I at the moment I didn't think I like it just didn't seem possible or you know whatever it may be and here you are on the other side yeah absolutely and different people yeah so if people want to listen to your podcast check you guys out like what's the best way to get in your circle I always think of the people that might have found themselves in your story and might want to reach out and just share their story for the first time like what's the best way to find you reach out to you do all those things I mean relationship renovation podcast is is the way to hear more about us because we I mean as we shared a lot here today but a lot of our podcast is sort of sharing the struggles we have that are very human relationship problems that are and people just love it because it's relatable we're not right reaching from the mount top no well then if you ever want to reach out directly to us you could just you know go

1:05:15searching relationship renovation dot com our website relationship renovation dot com has everything it has our podcast it has our youtube youtube yeah just relationship everything all the stuff all the same we'll link we'll link that and whether you want people to reach out or not I encourage people to because I do know the power of sharing your story for the first time and I know there are people that are out there that like I can't share this but things in my head are much scarier in my head than they are when I say them out loud so you know so if if someone is listening right now and and feels something from your story I hope they reach out to you and thank you thank you so much well thank you for you know coming on this journey and healing parts of me again I didn't know that I needed it but here we are so thank you for that thank you and I will say thank you to everyone for listening and I'll be back in a couple days with a brand new episode thanks again Tara and EJ thank you for listening to the life shift podcast if you want to learn more go to

1:06:17www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com there you can check out all the different episodes you can check out the blog some of the reviews for the podcast and the life shift journal links are there so you can purchase your own copy whether in digital or print format thanks again