Building Bridges: The Role of Communication in Facilities

0:00This podcast is brought to you by Art Facilities, providing instant mobile access to facility information for on-the-go teams. To learn more about our smart building technology, visit artfacilities.com. And now, welcome to the Facility Voices podcast with your host, David Trask. I am David Trask from Art Facilities. This is Facility Voices. The podcast brings you real-world FM experiences from the front lines in the field. I wanted to mention that we're putting together best practices and practical insights tied to this episode. Head to artfacilities.com, slash facility voices, and we'll be sure to send them to you. My guest today is Greg Christiansen. He's a host of CMMS Radio Podcasts. Great. Welcome. Hey, thanks for having me, David. Long overdue, brother. Yeah, first and foremost, got to represent my friend.

1:00That's a nice cap, dude. Yeah, you know, I remember when I gave you that, man, it's been a while since I saw you because every now and then, you're out out on the West Coast. I shouldn't say every now and then, it's like all the time, dude. And I'm looking forward to the next time we get to do that, man. This is long overdue, man. Absolutely. And it's coming up, man. I'm telling you, I'm like, just a robot here right now, and I've seen you going all over the place this year or two, and it's exciting some of the stuff that you're doing. But for those who don't know, tell us a little bit about you and your background. Well, the reason I do what I do now is because I have kind of a long history in the CMMS computerized maintenance management software space. And prior to that, I was in building management, building maintenance, janitorial, working with cheap building engineers, property managers, facilities managers, none of them, all of it, right? All these different sites for many years got into the CMMS space in about 2002.

2:03And we started building the company, shout out to Sean. He's watching us from above. He started this awesome CMMS company. I helped him grow it. We sold it in 2018. So you can imagine over those years, how many people I had already spoken to and worked with and helped. And then I went on to the acquiring company and did that for a couple more years. So in 2021, I launched CMMS radio no longer being with the CMMS company. So I could just kind of talk a little bit, started off with, I think it was eight monologues. And by that point, people were reaching out asking if they could come on and talk to me. And I said, I don't really do that. And they're like, well, if you ever do, let me know. So I tried it and I haven't done a monologue sense. And yeah, I kind of do what you do. I've watched and learned from you. And there's a few other people throughout the industry, different parts of it, like maintenance and reliability that I get to learn from and kind of watch them trailblaze.

3:05And then I get people now that ask me questions about how they could do it. So I just love the space, the weirdest thing about what I do is that I've landed in the maintenance and reliability space when I am in fact, not a reliability professional. I'm not a CMRP. I worked with a lot of them, but I didn't really know. And they were telling me, no, no, no, you're, this is good. Keep going. So it just goes on and on like that. And then speaking of what you mentioned when it comes to the going to different places, I go to occasional conferences. And sometimes it's something you just can't pass up like last month. I went to the UK for what's called the mainstream UK summit. It was the first ever time the mainstream community out of Australia had done that. And I was so honored that they would invite me, bring me over, let me cover it. I got some great episodes there, but the experience was awesome. You might have noticed I was at SMRP. So I just, I get to do all these things and talk to people.

4:06If it weren't for this, I may have never met you. You know, I, I love the stories, but you know, it's funny because you land in different areas. And you, you don't have the certification in these other areas, but you're being called in, you know, because everybody's learning from everybody. And I think a lot of these different sectors are pulling people in because I think they're at the point right now where they, we don't know, we don't know. And it helps to have some of those fresh eyes and fresh perspectives. Yeah. I think, well, and you and I have at least a handful of friends in common and that, that will continue over the weeks, months and years because there's all this convergence across the spaces. You know, whether it is healthcare or not, for example, Andy Gager over at AMG. We know him in common. And I don't know if you've met my friend, Brian Biesky, you said something just now that reminded me of Brian because he loves this idea, this concept that you don't know what

5:09you don't know. And he wants to know. A lot of maintenance and facilities people, whether they're reliability professionals or not, they're wired in that way where they want to kind of, they want to seek to understand a situation and then, you know, kind of program that into all the other things that they know. And that's one of the more fascinating things about what we do in any part of maintenance or facilities or asset management, you, you get that opportunity constantly every day. On one hand, somebody might think, oh, well, it's just maintenance and it's just asset management. It's kind of boring. Well, that's not what it is. There's a lot of nuance to it. There's differences in these facility structures. I mean, look at what you do. You do these facility walk downs where you're tagging and mapping critical assets relative to shut off valves and safety and imagine what that's all connected to. And you have to find things that people don't know where they are. They can't even tell you where to look. So there's always something kind of interesting about it where you can stay curious.

6:15And then the other thing is, I think, I think pretty much every person in any aspect of maintenance is a little bit different in that they at least have one boot on the ground, right? Like they have this connection to the building envelopes, the built world and all these different things. And they're just kind of all about keeping things moving. You know, I love that. And I think, you know, what you're doing, what, yeah, there are several other podcasts that are out there that are doing some things, you know, all touching the same types of stuff. But I kind of look at it from the standpoint of no one's ever really given facilities teams the voice, meaning let them vent, you know, once you get them going, they don't shut up. And it's a good thing though, it's, they share war stories because they've been in the trenches, you know, and I think right now in particular, it's a really interesting time because things

7:15are changing so quickly. And some of the challenges with that are, you know, trying to find people, trying to, to keep up with the newest stuff that's coming out and, and I think everybody's, it's kind of like whack a mole, you know, everybody's just trying to figure it out. But what I love about these types of, of venues like we're creating here, it gives them a way to share what they uncovered because in facilities, I say this a lot, in facilities, they're not competition with each other. Their companies might be, but in operating a building and, and maintaining a building, they're not competition with another facilities guy, they're just trying to figure it out. Their peers, their peers and they want to share, maybe commiserate, but they also want to solution what they're dealing with. Hey, have you ever heard this? And when we get to talk and we get to showcase those stories and ask these questions that's just kind of pop into our heads, you are creating something that might resonate with someone

8:21and get them thinking, whether they've experienced that or not, it might help them figure out. This is someone that might be able to help me because that's another thing that's common amongst facilities and maintenance people is they do like to help others. And you know, of course, there is that kind of line in the sand if they're competitive companies, but once you get out of that environment, they're just all about figuring out, how do we do stuff that's going to make an impact and make this better? Right. They don't want to reinvent a wheel and they also don't want to go down that, that rabbit hole that someone else uncovered, they went down the rabbit hole. And I think what's nice about that is the person who did go down that rabbit hole is like you said, they want to share, don't do that with other peers in the industry because they don't want them to have to have those kinds of headaches like they did. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the the nice thing about being on this journey and although you may hear the same

9:22kind of messages and kind of topics over and over again is think of it like you're walking on this trail, whether it's in the Appalachians or you know, somewhere else. And you know, that sign that's got all the crazy, we see it online, right? This sign that has all the different pointing things like go this way, go that way, go this way, go that way. That's what it's really all about. And I don't know if it makes it any easier, but you can sometimes just tell when somebody's telling you an actual story about something that worked out. And it's pretty solid when you can tell somebody, hey, this way, you don't want to go that way. There's a cliff over there unless you know how to, you know, repel down the side of a cliff. I don't know. I mean, it's like you get this constant opportunity to share information, give guidance, receive guidance, and then put it into action for an outcome that most people that aren't in maintenance or facilities or they're not chief building engineers, they're not fire

10:24and safety or any of that kind of stuff. They take it for granted, but that's kind of, it's supposed to be like that. What are they? Were they supposed to know, right? Some people drink milk. They don't know where it comes from. Right. Well, and you know, not every building is the same. You know, not every site is the same. I heard this the other day from a guy in the healthcare and he said, you know, if you've been in one hospital, you've been in one hospital, they're all different. And they all have different stuff and I think where they shout that some part of the challenge that they run into often is, you know, they'll walk into a new facility or they take another opportunity with another site and they walk in the door and they got systems they've never seen before, you know, and they're desperate to try and figure it out. And they're relying on the guys that they got in house, but which is great. But some of those guys are leaving. So creates these giant holes and what they know, I just talked to a guy in a hospital

11:27up in the Northeast, literally this week. And he said, you know, I walked in and they've got old pneumatic systems in here too. Now, it's not all the belief, but it's in some he goes, I've never worked in pneumatics and he goes, half the guys that that we've got on our team have never worked in pneumatics. They're brand new. You know, they worked off that in school. So I think where I've heard some really positive stuff is through forums, you know, if Ms. got some forums, Ashie's got some forums, Apa's got some forums where they're sharing information. It's kind of a mind share where they can throw a question out and that's what I love about like LinkedIn and these types of podcasts and things like that is someone will throw an idea out there and it's just a flood of ideas or a flood of ways that guys, you know, fix something and I kind of always say this, I'm the best YouTube mechanic there is because if I don't know how to fix something, I can look it up and I'll find a thousand videos how to fix that thing.

12:27As much as like like our dear friend Andy will tell us, talk about Andy Geiger folks, he'll say technology is great until you need it. But I want to talk specifically about that where, you know, when when we look at the power of the internet and all this stuff, there's so much information available. Now obviously, it helps if you know what you're looking at, it helps if you know how to kind of suss out what's the right way versus the wrong way. But a lot of the time you can, you can get ahead start on something when you talk about, you know, being able to fix something or repair something, you, it's crazy. You can watch a video and fix your own dishwasher or your dryer or something like that. And I don't necessarily recommend it for, you know, things like electrical or stuff like that, but you know, that's really a good thing, a way that we can leverage that type of technology. And I think the other thing is about what we're trying to do when we have these conversations

13:29and we showcase these stories is, it's sort of like that, but it's also to create that wider network of available professionals that want to help as well as people that are still learning and want to learn. And when that all kind of comes together, that's a really good thing because we've got this, this idea behind the skilled trades gap, the skills gap, the knowledge gap, all those things. The only thing we can really do is put things out there that help build that future because the gap's going to be the gap until it closes and as much as we see improvement and things, you know, kind of coming back for that next generation where they're interested in these types of jobs and roles and understanding, we got to just keep doing it. But you mentioned something about the pneumatics and I've been seeing some technology lately

14:32and this, I'm not pitching any technology, it's just the concept, right, because I'll talk to those companies separately, but where there are these like visual video elements where you can walk through an environment and you can see the piece of equipment and there's this idea of kind of the old guard, if you will, walking side by side with some of the new up and comers and then using that technology to capture all of it, to create an environment where someone could go in and spend an hour watching something that actually tells you how to do it. And that's, that's this thing about the tribal knowledge that goes away when Jill or Jill maintenance retires and it's a real concern and people shouldn't let up on that. If it starts to improve, they should not let up on it because we need more and more of that and everybody coming in in the next generation, I don't know if you've seen this, but I think they're so naturally kind of advanced technologically in how to use these,

15:34these tools that I know for me, I'm kind of like, oh man, what is this, what button do I got to push and I don't want to do it, you know, that's the way to get information in their hands and they will consume podcasts too. 100% you know, there's a, there's a new exciting thing that I just, I actually just interviewed a guy the other day about this and it was, it was really interesting. It was using some of the new, the next gen, ocular glasses and VR goggles, but I thought this was interesting. He was coming at it from the standpoint of training, meaning you go through the certification process and getting people up to speed fast or whether it's, and he was talking about it from the standpoint of auto mechanics. So they're working with, you know, some of the biggest auto manufacturers in the, in the world and getting their, they just can't find people. They can't get enough people to come in and as mechanics to fix stuff. So they're, they're developing these 3D training modules and training tools that you can

16:35actually go in and, and walk through this and visualize with the tools in your hand and, and fixing the same. Well, the next level of that or the next gen of that is, is having glasses where you could actually tap the glasses and it will actually connect you with a certified guy at the manufacturer who will walk you through because he can see what you're seeing and walk you through. See that wire over there? You've got to adjust this or imagine that. I mean, my goodness, I'm thinking holy crap. I mean, and I'm thinking from the standpoint of you mentioned earlier where you are on the UK trip, I'm thinking, I'm in, you know, Chicago, I'm in, you know, Florida or California or Hong Kong or the UK. Imagine no matter where you are, you can connect with that guy, you know what I mean? And I think where we're seeing a shift in skilled trades or we're going to potentially see

17:41us a shift in skilled trades, could be, you're going to see more generalists that you're not necessarily going to have as many skilled trades, you're going to have some, you're going to have quite a few, don't get me wrong because you have to have an electrician, you have to have a plumber, you have to have HVAC text, but maybe they're going to fill those gaps with some more generalists. But use that as the bridge to pull them up to certifications and skilled trades. I think that's true. And I think with what you were describing and what I was describing, they're almost the same because the couple of companies I was talking to about this state, they have where someone can come in in real time and walk somebody through what they're working on, what they're looking for. You bring up a really good point when it comes to the idea behind the generalists. So if we can first get the bodies because they're interested in this type of work, which is starting to happen again, and no, they weren't in auto shop. Like I was in auto shop and I had to literally tear down and rebuild a motor and get graded

18:46on whether it would fire or not when I was done, you know, and watch throughout the process and I might get to ask a few questions instructor might say this and that. You're talking about things that can kind of augment that and you don't have to have the engine or the environment where you're working on it, but you can do it in this virtual environment. But then you talk about like being in Hong Kong, somewhere in the UK, wherever, wherever, I'm thinking like if some of these, some of these guys and gals that are kind of riding off into the sunset, it'd be kind of cool if they were like picking up a couple hours here and a couple hours there. Somebody needs to build a network of these individuals that can just say, yep, I'm available on Saturday from 6 a.m. to 12 noon and it's only like every other week, but they know this stuff and then somebody just pings in and they grab it. And like, I mean, we just gave away like a multi million dollar idea that you might be on the sunset. And it's a real problem solver. Yeah.

19:46Well, that's it. It's people are starting to figure out, listen, there's a problem. What can we do to fix it? You know, there's gaps, there, you know, gaps in knowledge, there's, there's people are leaving the silver tsunami, you know, people are leaving the, the market like crazy right now. But I liked your idea what you said there too of, well, maybe you capture some of that stuff, you know, two, three, four, whatever, five hours a week from that person. I think where, where a lot of organizations are struggling right now is the people who do know where all that stuff is in existing buildings, they let them walk without doing any of that. They literally walk out that door and, you know, it's, it's basically kind of the, the next man up or next woman up mentality, well, you're, you're, you're, you're like chopping their arm off before they even start because they're going in black. Yeah. And it's not only a time suck, but now you're putting that person in a situation where

20:49they were up for it. They may be, maybe they even knew ahead of time they had to figure some things out, but it's so, so much that they might walk. That's it. Yeah. And I'm seeing a fall off of people where, you know, it used to be, you know, growing up when I, when I was a kid, you know, if you were, weren't someplace for five years or longer, you, you were a job hopper, you know, I mean, you, you weren't reliable. Now, I mean, I've talked to HR folks around the country and they said, we're lucky to see two years. And they've, they've lowered their expectation that you're going to find somebody that's been somewhere five years or longer. You just don't see it. And there's a lot of factors to that. There's the, you know, they're getting crazy money thrown at them to, to switch jobs. There's, they're, they're kind of, you know, the employee, the skilled trades guy or gal, they're, they're running in place because they can't get erased. You know, they're in a federal or, or they're in a state institution or, or any kind of

21:53government institution where they can't even, they're not seeing their wages going up to match what's going outside of their departments or outside of their, so how do they compete with that, you know, and what they're, you can't. That's exactly right. So I like the generalist idea, you know, and maybe it's even a, you, you bring them in, you help elevate them in their career because people want to grow, you, they want to make the next buck an hour or two bucks an hour, whatever, but they also want to grow professionally. It's not just about the money. So how are some of the ways that they might be able to, to elevate their team, you know, bring in some people that are more generous, elevate them to that next level, but then keep on. That's it. Do you know Trent McJunkin? I do. Yeah. Yeah. I've interviewed Trent. He's great. Trent and I have talked about this on countless occasions and I've talked to Brian Beasky. I've talked to Andy. A lot of the people we know are common, some that we don't, where there's this concept from

22:57a leadership perspective where, and I'm, I'm trying to quote Trent. So Trent, if I get this wrong, sorry, brother, he says, as employers in maintenance, maintenance and reliability, asset management, all of it, right? Facilities management, our responsibility is to build people and empower them through education and training and then allowing them to put that into practice so that they can become better and better and better, invest in those people, build them. And then it's your responsibility to treat them so well that you keep them. Your responsibility is to keep them. And if you can't or you don't or they find an opportunity, you have to put them in a position like in your own mind where you can celebrate their success. And because you've got such a strong team, you can suffer some of those or mitigate some of those gaps that are created by someone moving on because they finally got their level up at a different company or something like that.

24:00And that's really the way to do it and something you were talking about earlier, I just wanted to comment on when it comes to why this keeps happening and we see these trends. One, I think some of it's generational, a lot of us would probably agree, yeah, it's generational, it's just different, which is a normal kind of a thing. But there's this other thing that just keeps screaming in my head. That's a leadership problem, that's a what are we doing as an organization to grow and build as a brand, as a culture, and they're not doing the things that would make the people in these positions feel, I'm going to say obligated to do so well that they're leaving places that they're at in a better position when they move on. There are people that still have that mentality and I hear it all the time, well, I've left them in a better place, they're in a much better place for me having been there and they're not doing that from a position of ego.

25:01And then I'm trying to pay attention to how old is this person I'm talking to, where did they get those values? And a lot of times through that exploration, I'm finding that they had leadership that was just that kind of flavor of what we saw in decades past. So, and I don't know if we can bring that back, I just think we need a little bit more of it. And shit, everybody will think I'm just being gripping about poor leadership, but I think leadership is a critical component to how everybody in an organization moves, thinks, shows up all of it. Well, I think you said a couple of things there that I couldn't agree with you more. It's a culture. It's creating a culture where, and I'll expand on this a little bit, but I think it's it's being heard too, where leadership, I think struggles to maintain and keep people oftentimes is when their team isn't heard at all, they don't have a voice.

26:07So what happens is it's almost like the drill sergeant mentality. It's the do this, do this, do this, even if you're up at the edge of the cliff and they're saying, jump off the cliff, even though you know the cliffs are right there and you're staring at the edge, looking down, you know, and that's not success. Jumping off a cliff is not success. I think where you give that guy a voice, where he can turn around and say, hold up, there's a path right here, you know, maybe we can get there this way. The fact that they don't even have the voice to say this is a different alternative is a problem. And I think a lot of organizations are really doing that soul searching, they're looking internally because they've lost a lot of people, whether it's retirements, whether it's, you know, somebody just gets another job, you know, it's it's being heard, but then also providing like we talked about a second ago, that vehicle for them to grow, because if I'm not being heard and I don't have a vehicle to grow, why am I here?

27:09Yeah. And you're not saying anything that suggests you're not there to get after it and do the work, but when you're there to get after it and do the work and nobody else really cares. I mean, I don't, I don't think we're saying everybody gets a trophy. I think we're saying, hey, we're all kind of in it together and we should be, you know, kind of all focused on that to sometimes it feels like a slippery slope, but it's so damn obvious, right? It is. Well, I say, you're right, it is a slippery slope and I think, you know, everybody wants to grow. We've said this over and over and over again and I don't do that, you know, and I don't know. I don't know. There's not a magic bullet for how to get from point A to point B, but how do you even get to see? You know, I mean, it's just, it's almost like I think a lot of organizations, you know, they'll dangle that carrot and they get just just a taste long enough to stay, but they don't realize that somebody over here is, is offering, you know, my buddy just got

28:14a job that he's making, you know, half again more than I make it. So it's not just about the nibble, it's about, you know, it's really sometimes it comes down to dollars, you know, but other times I think it comes down to is, you know, I'm, I'm bust of my butt. I'm, I'm doing, you know, 10, 12 hour days because we can't find people to backfill open positions and I'm killing myself. Yeah, and I keep asking for at least a part time person on these two days a week and they keep saying, no, and then there's this other part of what you were saying, where I know plenty of people like in the last, let's just say three years that have been offered positions that were substantial compared to what they were making. And they said, thanks, but no. And my question was always, why, because I'm kind of fascinated by that, right? I get it, but I still want to know because it's different for every person. And it comes back to the environment that they're in oftentimes, I mean, sure, sometimes people stagnate, right?

29:14We all can do that and we just get complacent in our roles. But the other thing is there's this, this thing about that culture and that environment where you're seen and heard not in a, everyone gets a trophy way. I know I've said that twice now, but more in a, a productive way, right? A constructive way where you know that people are not just appreciating what you're doing, but they are holding you accountable and they too are willing to be accountable. Those are environments where people really thrive. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, again, we said this over and over again, culture, you know, success, you know, a pathway to success. And everybody's path is different and that's okay. You know, just because you carve it out, you know, for one guy or gal that's this way, doesn't mean that's going to work for everybody. And I'm curious what, you know, you've done some travel overseas too. And I'm curious is this, to what are you hearing is, are there, is it pretty much the

30:16same abroad as it is here in the States as well as Canada? Or are you hearing some, some differences? Are they feeling the same stuff? I've been trying to figure out how to have kind of a canned answer for this because a few other people before I went over to the UK, they said, hey, can you try to figure out or find out or ask people what are the differences? And it was really difficult to put my finger on it and figure out what it really is. Number one, there are definite differences. There are differences in learning style and working style. And I'm not saying that the work itself is different, but there's a different mentality when it comes to embracing the work. So, God, and I have to be really careful, right? Because I was just crushed, crushed people, right, that are over here. But I saw some differences and I've also, I've only been to like two places internationally

31:16in my life, like flown there. But I've talked to a lot of people in different regions of the world. And then I've talked to so many people that have been everywhere in the world. I mean, like Andy, Andy Gager and I, we always are talking about differences globally when it comes to work. So, there's this different kind of an interest in adopting the learning opportunities. They're like sitting through those and actually putting them into play. And I can't figure out a single answer. There are differences and I just think it has to do with maybe at least in the UK, I would say maybe the roots of how and where industry was born, maybe a slightly different work ethic. I'm not saying better or worse necessarily, different approaches to efficiencies, where maybe a bit more of a focus on the effectiveness. Somehow, somehow, I'm saying this lightly, right? I don't consider myself an expert on it.

32:16I need to talk to another thousand people, right? Then in the conversations that I have, not just with Andy, but with other people in different regions, from different regions, there's also something in the cultures themselves and the environments themselves that influence how people approach work. And I'm thinking of this concept of like, we all kind of know what the stellar ideal employee looks like. There's things that they do and there's things that they don't do. And overall, they always do that. And then there's these elements of like coachability in there. I see if we think of regions like the Philippines, I see in here about a different kind of intention around applying the principles in maintenance and reliability. Like very vigorous. Almost no questions asked, but the questions that they do ask are very intelligent and around,

33:20how can I pull this in and actually put this to work? Whereas maybe over here, we're a little more apt to say, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. Yeah, I get it. And then every once in a while, we're like, oh, wait a minute. Let me ask about this. Let me ask about that. I don't know if I'm really answering your question as much as kind of dancing around it, because I'm still trying to figure out what that is. But I will say when I was at that mainstream UK summit, I got a taste of and a general feeling of a difference in the work approach. I even talked. There's a gentleman by the name of Will Ocean. He's with maintained reliability. And he also has a podcast called the reliability gang. And we were talking about that. There's an episode out about that. And I've got a bunch of other episodes coming from there. Do you know, Christopher Edhammer? So Christopher and I and a group of people were talking one evening about a lot of these kinds of things. And it's just fascinating to take it all in, but it's really hard for me to pull it out of my head right now, because I'm still learning.

34:20You know, I've had a couple of conversations here and there over these couple of years or so. And still forming that kind of opinion. Eric Hupier is a good person to talk to about that too. He's out of Australia. I wasn't expecting a magic bullet or a magic answer. I think, I think we're like I said, we're all trying to figure it out. And I always like, I'm a lifelong learner. I want to hear what other folks are doing, what's working, what's not working, and more importantly, share what I hear. And a lot of things that are happening right now, like we said at the very beginning, the industry is changing. It's changing quick. And I'm curious what your perspective is on what's next, what's coming. And not just for the next year, but where do you see the industry shifting moving forward with regards to maintenance and managing buildings and facilities? Okay. Well, we'll get the obvious one out of the way first. There's going to be a continued leveraging of an incorporation, incorporating of AI,

35:26artificial intelligence, machine learning, LLM. Yeah, it's not leaving. That's not leaving. And there's going to be improvements in how that is actually used. And I think there's going to be a wash out in some of those technologies going away that aren't really as effective as they purport to be. I don't love to see people fail, but I also want us to get closer and closer to what's actually effective that we can then make efficient. So that's going to continue to trend. And I'm okay with some of it. I'm not okay with all of it, only because I think there's still a lot of gaps. Now, that leads me to this other thing where you already talked about the VR and the different ways of interacting with an environment, learning about environment, bringing in coaching. I think that's going to continue and get bigger. I think this is going to be another. And I know some companies that work on this and have the technology. I think there's going to be more visual elements, not just images, but these actual environments you can be in virtually. I think

36:30that's going to happen again, because there's been a few runs at that over the last 20 to 30 years, for sure, 20. And a few false starts and it was just the timing was off. So I think that's going to happen. I also think there is going to be even more prevalence of programs in junior colleges and other learning environments and technical environments to build these skilled trades, including facilities management, maintenance management, and related. And we've always seen it in many different places, but I think it's becoming a new for a lot of people and it's gaining some traction, some interest. I also, I don't know if this is true. I just hope this one's true. I really hope to see more shop classes and include the technology as it relates to what we do in facilities and maintenance management and manufacturing and all that cool stuff in the high schools

37:32at least. I'd like to see more people have that opportunity at a younger age to get into skilled trades, mechanics, all those things, just because if fosters, those couple of bodies here and there that are going to, that are going to come into the trades. I agree. I think trades, seeing that starting, and I've heard this from multiple people that I've interviewed, bringing it back sooner, getting involved earlier, meaning I've talked to somebody just the other day that said that they were going to be sending their teams out into the, into the high schools, into the middle schools to just give presentations to go into those shop classes that are coming back. And just walking in and showing them specific stuff and getting them exposure. I think it's a grassroots thing. I agree because if you're going to try to attack this from the top and say, let's go big. Let's cast a really wide net. That'll have an impact, but the grassroots is where

38:35it really happens because think of what the trades, what facilities management, maintenance management, and those things are. They're kind of, I don't know if this is bold or not, but I think salt to the earth, wholesome type of things and the impact is overlooked by people that just don't know and the people that get it and they know it and they do it and the people that get up at four in the morning and work a farm and they have a breakdown of a tractor and they learn how to fix it on and on and on into all these different areas of our world. They know and understand that impact. I just had a conversation last night. This is true with someone that is in Bangkok about what do you think, you know, this kind of concept when the bottom drops out or something happens? Who do you think is going to be there to take care of all the different things? And we were talking about skilled trades. We were talking about people that do this work, that love this work, that have no problem, not only doing the work, but they love to figure out

39:36a problem. Well, it's recession proof. Think about it. You know, it was pandemic proof. You know? Oh, yeah. Yeah. How? Well, that was a great opportunity for anybody in the trades because people at home were like, well, hey, now I can do this and this and this project and call these people in because I'm stuck at home. So we'll get that knocked out. I do, you asked something about the trends and things in the future too. I think there's another one that's going to happen where there's going to be more of integration of the technologies with kind of combining the VR and the AI and what we do. So I don't know if I had said that. It just keeps women around back here. So I wanted to get that out. This whole, this whole thing, I think, has an opportunity to improve. And I just hope we maintain. Yeah. I think there's, there's a lot. You're a year on the head right there, Greg. I mean, it's, it's communication. I think

40:39everybody's looking, I prefer to this and sales meetings all the time. Everybody wants the magic bullet. You know, all things connected. All things talking. It doesn't exist right now. Is it coming? I think it is. It's, it's coming. But what does that look like? You know, I don't know the answer to that. Are we five years from that happening or we 10 years? I have no idea. But I think the fact that we're all wanting it and everybody needs it and everybody's asking for it is going to force the industry to make some of these dramatic shifts. I'm seeing it with CMMS and maintenance technologies and sensor monitoring, other types of data collection, business intelligence tools, this concept or idea of the connected ecosystem is, it's a pretty heavy focus right now. I think that's what I was trying to get to is what I see with some of the technology companies and then with some of the maintenance or reliability people that I get to talk to how, how they're bringing those things together. And then what you're talking about is

41:42when it really goes next level and some of that stuff, we don't have to touch or press any buttons for that, that'll probably happen too. I think I was kind of talking about that too, but this, this idea, we've heard it forever, right? Breaking down the silos and you got to have better communication between departments and you got to make sure you have buy in, you got to have frontline user adoption, adoption. You got to have top line, I don't think you can say that about people, that's revenue. The C-suite and everybody in the middle engaging and seeing and participating so that frontline continues to use the software, but you get these systems all talking together and that keeps us moving in better ways because it leads to better decision making provided. You got standardization and you've got, for example, in what you do, you've got safety valve marking and mapping so that people know where, what, why and how to shut something down, reboot something, anything like that. I mean, we could talk for hours. That's right. Well, Greg, I truly,

42:42truly appreciate you sharing your insights, brother. And look forward to doing some more of these with you soon. And, and again, thank you so, so much. And look forward to catching you and everybody else the next episode of facility voices. And again, representing right here. All right, buddy. Thanks, brother. Appreciate you. Just a quick reminder, we're putting together best practices and practical insights from this conversation. Head to artfacilities.com slash facility voices and we'll send them to you. We appreciate your tuning in to our facility voices podcast brought to you by art facilities. As we continue to explore the big issues and challenges facing the facility management industry, we welcome your feedback ideas and suggestions for topics and guests. Send an email to communications at artfacilities.com or reach out to our host, David Trask, on LinkedIn.