Breaking!! DOJ Investigating Trump Over J6 Crimes + A Conversation with David Corn

0:00Tyler Reddick here from 2311 Racing. Another checkered flag for the books. Time to celebrate with Chamba. Jump in at chambacacino.com. Let's Chamba. No purchase necessary, BTW Group. Boy, we're prohibited by mom. CCNC, 21 Plus, sponsored by ChambaCacino. This is Michael Cohen, and you're listening to the mayor called the podcast. The more that they attack President Donald Trump, the more it makes me want to support him. Why is it that people stay loyal to him when they watch their entire lives get destroyed, get thrown right down the dumpster while Donald Trump is sitting stuffing his face at Mar-a-Lago?

1:04It makes absolutely no sense. They took me going to prison to wake up and to extricate myself from the cult of Donald Trump. I have the most loyal people, did you ever see that? Where I could stand in the middle of fifth they have a new and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters, okay? It's like an incredible. Just because Trump, his kids in his business are all under investigation, and that Rudy is sweating it out in Fulton County, courthouse, and Miss Lindsay is fighting back a subpoena, and just because indictments are about to be passed out like candy, it doesn't mean that democracy is safe. Just because we know these things are happening doesn't mean that they're going to stop or that justice will be served because the jury is still out on all of it, except of course for Alan Weiselberg. He's going down. Donald Trump's longest serving employee, Alan Weiselberg, walked into a New York courtroom today and pleaded guilty again and again and again to committing fraud together with the Trump Corporation. The judge literally used the phrase together with the Trump Corporation over and over

2:08today while reading the charges against Alan Weiselberg. Weiselberg, one of the Trump's most loyal lieutenants and someone I worked with for over a decade, pleaded guilty to numerous crimes in a New York courtroom Thursday. All crimes, of course, having something to do with the Trump Organization. But nevertheless, the idiot took the rap. Not that the Trump Organization is off the hook, they will face charges of their own in October. But for now, Weiselberg is refused to turn on his old boss despite years of pressure from the Manhattan District Attorney. Weiselberg has been charged with 15 felonies, but because of a plea deal, he won't do 15 years in jail, just 100 short days. The other Alan Weiselberg is not cooperating. He is true only in the narrowest sense. He now has to go to trial with this sort of sword hanging over his head that if he is found to be lying, he can get 15 as much as 15 years in prison.

3:09So he is over the colds now and there might as well be a cooperation agreement in place because he is now going to, I think, be a material witness against the Trump Organization. Under the plea deal, Mr Weiselberg must pay nearly 2 million in taxes, penalties and interest after accepting lavish off the books perks from Mr Trump in the company, including least Mercedes Benzes, an apartment on Manhattan's Upper West Side and private school tuition for his grandchildren. He has also got to testify against the Trump Organization in October, but is outlined in the terms of this deal, he will not have to testify directly against the former president. He simply refused to do it. Alan Weiselberg, he has to testify at the Trump Organization's upcoming trial in October. That's a part of his plea deal. But based upon what you said before the House Oversight Committee, isn't it inevitable that he's going to implicate Donald Trump directly? So it seems that way, you know, I've received after the Weiselberg fleet.

4:11I've received no less than maybe 50 phone calls from journalists all over the world. It's not even just in this country. And many of them turn around and say, well, I've heard that the questions that they're going to be asking Weiselberg are merely about the apartments, the cars, the rent that were given, and not about anything else. That doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, that would probably be about the worst move that Alvin begged to make, including dropping the case against Trump in the first place, simply because here's what happens. The guy's getting five months for 15 counts over a God knows how many years. It's close to $2 million. It was a scheme within which to defraud. We know that his sons were also being looked at. So clearly, they must now get a pass. On top of that, he is required to testify. Why would you limit the extent of the testimony that prosecutors want to ask and only ask

5:17questions about the perks that were given to him, which is what's now going to put Alvin Weiselberg in Reikers Island for at least a minimum of a hundred days? According to The New York Times, Mr. Weiselberg insisted that Mr. Trump had done nothing wrong and that he would rather go to jail than fabricate a story about him. But he did come up with something that Mr. Trump would occasionally draw a circle around the valuation of an asset on his annual financial statement, adding a question mark beside the number. But Mr. Trump, he said, did not order anyone to inflate the numbers. To your knowledge, did the president or his company ever inflate assets or revenues? Yes. And was that done with the president's knowledge or direction? Everything was done with the knowledge and at the direction of Mr. Trump. Must have been a difficult decision for Weiselberg. He's 75 years old and after many months of wrangling with the court, he ended up hurting

6:21himself and the Trump organization. But once again, Trump was spared. On Thursday, the federal judge who approved the FBI search of former president Trump's Mar-Lago home almost two weeks ago found the Justice Department had not met the high threshold for showing that the entire affidavit should remain sealed. But he did order the immediate release of these other procedural records that provided some insight into the possible crimes that led to the Mar-Lago search. Thursday, in another courtroom in Fulton County, Georgia, in front of a special grand jury, Fanny Willis finally had her way with Rudy Giuliani. We don't know whether or not he took the fifth or how many times, but for the first time in months, Rudy fucking colluding Giuliani looked sober as a judge. Plus, he kept his mouth relatively shut when dealing with the press. It may have finally dawned on him that his reputation has been totally decimated. No longer America's mayor, he'll go down as just another fucking Trump stooge.

7:23Glass president, prosecutor, mayor of New York City, time person of the year. These are just some of the hats worn by Rudy Giuliani, before we knew him as President Trump's right hand man. So how did he go from this? He's the mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani. To this. And I'd love to know what they've got on Lindsey Graham. But whatever it is, it's not helping him wheeze a lot of having to testify in the same 2020 election fraud case that's got Rudy going down. These lawyers made arguments to keep Lindsey out of court that one judge called fucking absurd and ordered him to appear before the special grand jury next Tuesday. The judge wrote that the public interest would not be served by granting a stay or delaying Mr. Graham's testimony. Drop it high. We've had a hell of a journey. I hate it then this way. Oh my God, I hate it. From my point of view, he's been a consequential president.

8:25But today, first thing you'll see, all I can say is count me out enough is enough. Two other Trump team lawyers who unsuccessfully fought their subpoenas, Jenna Ellis and John Eastman, are scheduled to appear before the grand jury before the end of the month. But wait, there's more. The grand jury might also hear from sitting Republican governor Brian Kemp. Kemp's still trying to quash his subpoena to testify before the grand jury. And he's accusing prosecutors of being politically motivated since he's running for reelection. But amid all of this news about witnesses who have testified or might soon testify in Georgia, it's important that we don't forget about the star witness in this entire case. The tape. So, look, all I want to do is this, I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more

9:25that we have. And the ultimate Florida man, Ron DeFsantist, lost bigly in a St. Petersburg courtroom Thursday when he tried and failed to get his stop woke act passed. Stop woke, which just sounds fucking stupid, was a lame attempt to kill critical race theory with a law that would have restricted race-based conversation and analysis in businesses and in education. A judge is blocking part of a new Florida state education law, the Stop woke act banning education in classrooms or workplaces of concepts like inherent racism or discussions that make people feel guilty over their race. The judge says it violates the First Amendment. He referenced Netflix's hit show Stranger Things saying, quote, recently, Florida has seemed like a First Amendment upside down. The judge is preventing the state from enforcing the employee training provisions back in April. The governor said the law would fight indoctrination and concepts like critical race theory. What we will not do is let people distort history to try to serve their current ideological

10:33goals. People translate to run eight woke and some smart judge decided his idiotic law is unconstitutional. Three more lawsuits against the Stop woke act are pending. One of those lawsuits aptly states the Stop woke act aims to forward the government's preferred narrative of history and society and to render illegal speech that challenges that narrative. People like him say is, stop the Stop woke act. Seriously. You think about what MLK stood for. He said he didn't want people judged on the color of their skin but on the content of their character. You listen to some of these people nowadays, they don't talk about that. Lastly, when the Supreme Court resumes later this year, fuck knows what they'll attempt to take from us next, and how did nine unelected folks end up with our fates in their very old hands. The abortion battle rages all over the country in the wake of the last session.

11:34But recent analysis of the court by a Stanford law professor found that inconsistencies in the high court's application of the law is staggering. Now believe it or not, the court was intended to be an A political body, interpreting the law through the frame of the Constitution and not any partisan set of beliefs. Seriously, that's not a bit. That's really what it was supposed to be. Is the high court for or against state's rights? Well, in the case of California for instance, where mass mandates were in place during the pandemic, the court carved out special protections for churches. Of course, making it impossible for state officials to curb the spread of the virus, the moment unmasked worshipers filed into the pews. What was that special? Doctors like businesses the world over could just have easily met on Zoom, but the radical right-wing arm of the court can't help but show its preference for Christian-style religion

12:36and its disdain for anything that Fox News might find reprehensible and report on negatively. Like masks, carveouts based on preference and not law, with drugs from states the power they have long held to manage their own health and safety, public education and the design of their own governments. They can't get mad because we're just following in a long and hollowed conservative tradition called states rights. And then the court turned around an expanded state's power on the issue of abortion, knowing that they had allies they could depend on in red states to carry their water and pest their laws. Today, the US Supreme Court overturned a lower court's judgment against an Indiana law requiring parents be notified when a minor gets an abortion without parent permission. The court is also accused of limiting the power of lower courts, insulating federal immigration officers from charges of misconduct, functionally handing agents of US customs and border patrol,

13:43the nation's largest federal law enforcement agency and get out of court free card and making it harder for immigrants to challenge the decisions of immigration judges, even when a judgment is incorrect. If Justice Thomas really wants to deal with bullying in America or this problem of people supposedly unwilling to accept outcomes that they don't like, I've got some advice for Justice Thomas, start in your own home. Have a conversation with Jeannie Thomas. She refused to accept the legitimacy of the 2020 presidential election. Why? Because she didn't like the outcome. And so instead, she tried to steal the election, overthrow the United States government and install a tyrant. That's bullying. That's being unwilling to accept an outcome because you don't like the results, because the form of twice in peach so-called president of the United States of America lost legitimately to Joe Biden.

14:43How did she respond? Instead, she said, the Biden should face a military tribunal in Guantanamo Bay. On trumped up charges of sedition, you've got to be kidding me. The study concludes that what the court is after is power and it doesn't care what laws it needs to bend or break to get it. A growing chorus of legal luminaries are calling radical fixes to rein in the power of the court, including changes to the number and tenure of justices. This rhetoric is refreshing stuff from the legal academy whose members tend to reinforce the legitimacy of the court and the legal system it upholds. But the court has turned itself into a political institution and the justice's power grab has made it difficult to trust their motives. That ship has sailed, said the author of the study, and good fucking riddance. When tens of millions of women vote this year, they won't be alone.

15:45Millions and millions of men will be taking up the fight alongside them to restore the right to choose. And the broader right to privacy in this nation was they denied existed. And the challenge from the court to the American women and men, this is a nation. The challenge is go out and vote. For God's sake, there's an election to remember, vote, vote, vote, vote. Day or night, verbo care is here 24-7 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever

16:49you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you had home, we're here to help things run smoothly. Because a great trip starts with the right support. And hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either. At verbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support, so we've planned for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our verbo care guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start. Whenever you need help, it's ready, before you stay through the moments in between and after your trip. As a great trip, starts with peace of mind, and maybe a good playlist, but we've got the peace of mind part covered. And now for the main event. Today we welcome back to Mayucolt, but David Korn, the veteran Washington journalist, bureau chief of mother Jones, and an on-air analyst for MSNBC. Korn co-authored with Michael Issykov, Russian roulette, the inside story of Putin's war

17:55on America, and the election of Donald Trump. He's also the author of three New York Times bestselling books, as was the long-time Washington editor of The Nation. His latest venture, the twice-weekly newsletter Our Land, covers the news of the day and delivers his no-bulshed analysis on everything from DC politics to his entertainment recommendations. Just reading it makes you feel smarter. He has written for numerous magazines and newspapers, including The New York Times, The Washington Post, Harper's, and The Atlantic. He regularly appears on Face the Nation, and PBS's NewsHour, and often provides commentary on national public radio. He's a proud five-baited cat, the graduate of Brown University, and his Twitter feed at David Korn DC has almost a million followers. So let's go now to that conversation. Okay, so David, in Georgia, Rudy Giuliani just spent six hours with the special grand jury.

19:01Now we know that he has no legal basis to claim attorney-client privilege. He could have played the fifth over and over again, but now that he realizes that he's a target, do you think he actually kept his mouth shut? I mean, he was there for six hours. Is it possible that they were prepared to grant him immunity if he cooperated? And in any case, what's the likelihood that Giuliani gets indicted and on what charges? Well, you know, it's hard to predict any of these things because we don't know exactly what happened in the grand jury room, which is the way it's supposed to work. I mean, Giuliani's never been shy about talking publicly, but I have to believe that if he has a decent lawyer, this smart thing from to do was to say as little as possible, this grand jury investigation seems to be very robust and targeting not just Donald Trump, but looking at Lindsey Graham and other people involved in a fake electors scheme

20:04in Georgia. It's not just the phone call that Donald Trump made to Georgia State election officials, and he said, just find me 11,790 votes, you know, like a mafia boss. But people should recognize, too, that the process in Georgia is long and slow in that this grand jury that really just appeared before is not going to indict anyone. It's a special investigation's grand jury that allows the, you know, the DA down there to conduct an investigation. At the end of that, if she decides she wants to pursue a criminal case, she needs to convene a second grand jury to indict. So there's still a long ways to go, but, you know, you know, you mentioned lawyer client privilege with Rudy Giuliani, as you know, quite well, confidentiality privilege doesn't cover everything, right? If a lawyer and a client or an associate are planning to, you know, a fraudulent act

21:09or a criminal act, you can't say attorney client privilege to that when you go for a grand jury. So I think the only, you know, the only thing that, I mean, Rudy could have tried to do that. Maybe there'll be a legal case out of this, but again, I'm betting that they just made him say the fifth, you know, plead the fifth over and over and over again. And I'll take a step back from this for a bigger picture. You know, Rudy Giuliani, who was Mayor of New York City, thought, you know, in the courts, terrorists, the mob inside traders in Wall Street has always claimed to be a patriot and a good guy crusader. Well, one of the things about being a good guy crusader is cooperating with law enforcement, right? And cooperating with investigations. He knows a lot about what Donald Trump did and didn't do. There are two phone calls that happened while the riot was going on January 6, between

22:09Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump. These have been referenced by the January 6 committee, but we don't know what the two talked about while Donald Trump sat there and did nothing, purposefully did nothing. And I would think that, you know, to serve the public to serve history, Rudy Giuliani should feel an obligation to let the committee and let the public know what happened on those crucial moments. So, you know, he's gone from being a guy who tries to break up the mob and penetrate the code of silence to having a pledge of our murder, the mafia code of silence, to protect Donald Trump. It's, you know, as crazy a story and all this craziness, as one can imagine. Yeah, one would think that this is a television show, the way that it's playing out. On top of it, it appears now that Fanny Willis, the district attorney there in Fulton County, may even now be contemplating calling Trump himself to testify before the special grand jury. And you are, once again, correct, David, when you turn around and you said that not every

23:14communication between an attorney and his client is privileged, right? It's what they call the crime fraud exception rule. If you're in the process of committing a crime, certainly that communication is not going to be privileged, despite what Rudy may say or his attorney, this guy, Bob Castello, who actually in my book Revenge, I talk about Bob Castello because he tried to infiltrate my case to be able to go back to Rudy with information on how I was planning on whether it was a cooperating or providing information and not cooperating what I was going to do. So that way you could get back to Donald. I mean, it's really crazy. What's going on here? I mean, it's crazy. And you're right. When you say that it's like the mob, the way that he's running with this and the way that they're acting, it's completely something that you would have seen in the sopranos.

24:16And it's even nutty on that because in his free time, Rudy Giuliani is apparently selling sandals. I mean, it's, you know, and doing all these other sort of grifting type activities, I mean, I'm getting emails from him and every day raising money for the Rudy Giuliani, you know, legal defense fund and, you know, all these folks, you know, raising money off the FBI raid now too. No, it's, you know, you can speak to this probably more than anybody else, Michael. But, you know, Trump is just a black hole for some people, you know, you look at Rudy Giuliani. You had this stellar reputation for many years. You look at Chris Christie. You look at Sony people who are substantive folks who have, you know, years of accomplishment. Really? What, you know, what Donald Trump was a developer in a silly TV show? I'd give him credit for that. But Rudy Giuliani actually was a public servant.

25:16He worked in the Justice Department. He ran, he ran, you know, the biggest city in, you know, in the, in the States. And here he is now becoming, you know, this, you know, the, the Frato for Donald Trump's Godfather. I mean, I just, I, for the life of me, I don't understand why he can't look in the mirror and say, wow, you know, I've done more and more accomplished, you know, I'm smarter than Donald Trump. Why have I become his handmaid? Yeah. Why? I don't get it. I don't, I don't know. So since there are things that we, since there are things that we don't get, right? Let me ask you this question. What's your reaction to Fannie Willis's blunt letter to Governor Kemp's lawyer regarding Kemp trying to evade being subpoenaed by the same special grand jury? I mean, Kemp clearly doesn't want to have to testify in any case about election fraud

26:17that could upend his own reelection campaign. His lawyer is actually calling the subpoena politically motivated. This is right out of the Donald Trump playbook. This is right out of Trump's mouth. Willis says it's not, it's not, um, it's not election or politically motivated, but she didn't miscalculate here, right? I mean, do you think forcing Kemp to testify may be the undoing of her case against Trump? What's your thoughts about the whole thing? You know, you know, DA's prosecutors want to get as much information as they can, right? They don't want to prosecute cases that are weak. They tend to want to have the strongest case in the most amount of evidence. And, you know, it seems to me that Kemp and others are in the position to help her. Certainly, look at what's going on with Lindsey Graham. She's, you know, has subpoenaed him and he's fighting that subpoena, so far he's losing that fight.

27:17I would think that, you know, that the people who care about election integrity, which Kemp claims to care about, would participate willingly in an investigation about whether there was, you know, an attempt to, you know, to fraudulently change election results in Georgia or any place else. I understand why, you know, he thinks this would be, you know, a death knell for him. And the, you know, in the same way that, you know, I'll change the subject a little bit here, but look at what happened in the last few days with, with former Vice President Mike Pence. He said he was considering cooperating with the January 6th committee. Now, I think the only two people in this world who believe he has a chance of becoming president and one is his wife and I assume the other is Mike Pence. Other than that, no one thinks his presidential aspirations are going anywhere in 2024, but I can tell you one thing. If he cooperates with the January 6th committee, though, you know, his chances which are

28:22in negative numbers already go become even worse, right? So he's no way he can, you know, you know, Trump voters, Republican voters will indeed punish anybody who cooperates with legitimate investigation to anything related to 2020 election and the, and Trump's attempt to overturn it and the January 6th riot. So it's, you know, it's, you know, Trump and the Republican base have decided that this is a litmus test. If you cooperate with investigations, you are going to be tossed out of the party the way Liz Cheney was just tossed out of the party a few days ago. So I don't think it's a miscalculation on the DA's part, but I do think that the party is put itself in the position where, where responsible and legitimate Republicans, the few who might be left, are in an impossible situation where they can't, you know, responsibly,

29:24you know, talk about what happened or talk about the FBI raid that just happened without being crucified and excommunicated from the party. Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's no longer the Republican party. And as Eric Trump, who I consider to be one of the stupidest human beings ever, is sitting there on television, it's one of these right wing, you know, OANs or Newsmax or something like that, even Fox isn't allowing him to spew all of this bullshit, screaming, you know, that it's no longer the Republican party, it's my father's party, it's the Trump party. I mean, what a stupid thing to say, especially in light of everything that's going on, the guilty plea by Alan Weisselberg, the fact that the Trump organization has been indicted and that their case, which is going to trial in October, right, now he's talking about what? This is Donald's party, this is all about fundraising, this is all about grifting. The second that the FBI executed its warrant, they were already fundraising and by Donald

30:33doing what? Claiming to be the victim, right, all of a sudden Donald is the victim. They raided my beautiful home, there's another lie, it's not his home, it is a social club that is frequented by hundreds of members that pay 300,000 in a bond to be technically we'll call it a part owner. So everything that's coming out of their mouth is a lie and the sole purpose of what it is that they're saying is all to raise money. They're not the only ones doing it, DeSantis is doing it, Cruz is doing it, every single one of these Republicans are out there fundraising off of the FBI raid on Mar-a-Lardo. As if they have anything to do with it, they don't. But this is one of the problems, this is one of the problems that we have here in America why our democracy is in peril, it's because there is two positions which are diametrically

31:39opposed to one another. If you watch, for example, Newsmax or OAN and then you watch the MSNBC, CNN or any of the other network televisions, you would think you're in two parallel universes completely unrelated. It is absolutely insane what we all are being forced to experience on a daily basis. You know the interesting thing to me is if you look at political parties in general, if you have a case in which a candidate loses the presidential race and loses the Senate, loses seats in the House, brings down the brand in that way, the party tends to turn away from a person like that. This person is not good for the party, we're not going to nominate again, look what happened with Jimmy Carter, he became a great elder statesman, but in the years after his lost

32:40Toronto Reagan, the Democrats wanted nothing to do with him, they wanted to totally recalibrate the party. Here you have Donald Trump, who after mismanaging a pandemic, after January 6th, after losing control of the House, losing control of the Senate, losing the White House and his reelection bid, the party is still completely dominated by guilty to Donald Trump, if you don't bend the knee to Donald Trump and assume his liabilities as your own, you're not a Republican and good standing, so it was bizarre to watch all these Republican lawmakers just think of that word, lawmakers, they make our laws that you and I live by, right? These lawmakers jumping up and down about the FBI raid before even details were fully known

33:40and calling it an attack on Trump, the weaponization of the Justice Department, the deep state revenge, I mean, without knowing anything, it reminds me of during the generous experience when Rusty Bowers, the Arizona State House Speaker, a Republican, said that Rudy Giuliani, in the post-election period, was trying to overturn the result, said to him, we have no evidence, we have theories of how the election was stolen by Trump, we have no evidence, so it's not as even if the party people are trying to spin existing information to their benefit, they are just acting on a delusion that the election was stolen, they're acting on delusion that Donald Trump could never do anything wrong, you know, he could never, Donald Trump would never take classified information and hang on to it, he wouldn't do that,

34:41you know, this has to be, you know, a complete conspiracy, yet another hoax, it's just so many, all the hoaxes, the pandemic, they said was a hoax initially, you know, his encouragement of the Russian attack in the 2016 election, they said was a hoax, I mean, the phone call with the Zelensky, they said there was a hoax, I mean, I mean, I'm, I'm stuttering here, it's over, it's overwhelming, but David, let me, David, let me do this, yeah, let me, they run out of hoaxes, Tyler Reddick here from 2311 Racing, victory lane, yeah, it's even better with Chamba by my side, race to chamba casino dot com, let's Chamba, don't purchase necessary, VTW Group, boy, we're prohibited by law, C TNCs, 21 plus sponsored by Chamba Casino. Yeah, so the answer to that is no, and let me tell you the reason why, because the way things used to work at the Trump organization, when we were dealing with issues, whether it was the Schneiderman case against Trump or Givanca and Don for misstatements on properties and etc,

35:49what we would do is we would all get together, we would have a power meeting amongst, you know, the, we'll call it the inner circle. And of course, Donald was there, then he would tell us to go figure it out, come back and tell him what we're going to do. You sit down as a group and you come up with scenarios that you want to feed to the public, we'll call them bullshit scenarios that we will feed to the public that has an Iota of truth and legitimacy to. So in that way, we can stand on that, we'll call it that small number that microscopic portion and then run with it. And that was the goal. And that's exactly what's happening here. It's what's happening with the Weisselberg case, it's what's happening with January 6th, it's what's happening with every single aspect as it relates to Trump. They've, they sit down, they come up with a bullshit story

36:52and now the job of everyone around from the representatives all the way to Donald himself, kids, whoever is willing to go on television, any station and talk this nonsense or to go to the press and to spew this nonsense, that's the job. It is no longer about facts. That doesn't matter. It's no longer about truth. It's all about taking the truth that you want and to stuffing it down the throats of the American people by repeating it over and over and over again. And there are these MAGA fools that are out there, whatever comes out of any of their mouths, if your last name is Trump, if you turn around and claim that I'm with Donald Trump, they turn around, they believe it and then they promote it. That's what we're dealing with. Yeah, well, you know, it's been said many a time and I feel like it's a cliche at this point, but this is indeed how a cult operates. And you know, I once you've reached that point,

37:57it's like, what do you say about these people? They are not committed to facts, they're not committed to truth, they're not committed to reasonable discourse and policy debates, and it's really hard to have a country where one political party, too, is sort of a zombie cult that you can't even, that can't be engaged with. Now, there's one point I want to ask you about because, you know, as we're talking, Alan Weisselberg has pleaded guilty and they're still going to be a case against the Trump organization, you know, but not against Donald Trump. But as far as I know when everyone else knows, there really is no difference between Trump organization and Donald Trump, right? So it's kind of remarkable that a past president, future potential Republican party nominee is about to be taking the court for breaking the law. Yeah, and I, yes, and I just discussed that on CNN with Alison Camrata, where the same question

38:59was asked and it's his eponymous company. He had, and you know this well, David, he is the president and CEO. He owns the stock of the company. You cannot separate Donald Trump from the Trump organization. They're just, they're one in the same. But you know what, since we were talking about, but also, but the man, but the management of the company is also not that big, right? So it's not as if there are layers and layers and layers of decision makers, decision makers, unto him, if Weisselberg's doing something or if you were doing something back in those days, Trump knew. Yes, and I've said that many, many times. I said that there's nothing that went on at the Trump organization. The same way, nothing went on in the White House that Donald wasn't fully apprised up. But I want to talk for a quick second, because you brought this up how these MAGA followers are really nothing more than cult followers. And this creates a little bit of a situation, which I want to get your take on. After the search of Mar-a-Lago, there's been a huge uptick in violent rhetoric. And in some cases, violent actions by who?

40:02These cult followers. Now, the FBI is under siege from the Magusphere. Lives are at risk, right? What's the, what's the end game here? Because they certainly can't claim they, you know, that they back the blue anymore. Is, is this called to violence by Trump and his people, random anarchy, or part of some sort of an organized movement? Because look, in any case, what's the point here? Who do you think ends up winning in the long run? Well, there have been lots of political movements in the past and not too distant past that have relied on violence, right? Whether it's, you know, the fascists in Italy and Germany are, you know, Marcos and in the Philippines, the out of republics, which is kind of a derogatory term, but, but dictatorships in Central America and Latin America. And, you know, it's clear from the, you know, for years that Trump, you know, liked using violent rhetoric. He liked encouraging, you

41:04know, a degree of violence at his rallies. And he, you know, I mean, I keep coming back to this. I mean, you and I can talk about so many different elements of Donald Trump and what he's done wrong, what he's done wrong as a business person, as a human being, as president. And I just think of those 187 minutes where thousands of his followers are attacking, you know, fellow Americans, you know, cops, whatever, but fellow Americans looking to kill Nancy Pelosi and hang Mike Pence. He killed Nancy Pelosi, you know, Mike Pence. And this guy sits and does nothing because he likes this, because he wants this, because this is going to help his plan with Giuliani to delay and postpone certification so they can figure out what to do next to retain power. And take away anything else that Donald Trump has ever done. That to me should be, check me, should be the ballgame. That should be enough to discredit him as a leader, as a person for any sentient

42:09individual. So the fact that that doesn't has me flumics, tin perplexed. But, but so, you know, and so you go back to, you know, to the question of, you know, the maggot cult followers. And what do they think what they want in violence? I think, you know, Trump has created a situation in this cult like relationship that these people, some of them, not all of them, will engage in violence and that he will use the threat of violence. And maybe once again, at some time point in the future, actually calling them to engage in violence in some way or another to serve his own ends. There was a, there was a study done by a professor at University of Chicago political scientist named Robert Pape, done at the end of the last year. So we're talking after January 6th. And which he found 10% of the population somewhat or strongly agreed with the notion that it would be okay to use violence to restore power. So you're talking about, you know, 10 million or so Americans,

43:16or maybe more 25 up to 25 million Americans who are okay with some degree of violence to help Donald Trump. So I do think this is a very perilous moment. And when you get other Republicans out there, Rhonda Stanton's and Ted Cruz and others talking about the, you know, the FBI, you know, is now the enemy. We have to go after the FBI. Listen, as a, as a progressive, I've been critical the FBI for many years. But, you know, I don't say we should be out there attacking them. And then they're trying to also take what came out in the inflation reduction act last week, this week that it was signed actually, the 87,000 new IRS agents. And they're accusing, you know, they're describing them as deep state agents that are coming for you Trump supporters. I mean, it's, this is what the NRA did back in the 90s. David, this is going after, yes. But there's a reason why, yes, but there's a reason why Donald and cohorts are doing this because it's called deflection.

44:22Just look to see all of the crimes, all of the bad things that Donald has done. And then look to see who he shoved it onto. I mean, look, let me just give you a quick one. CNN on August 11th of 2021, almost a little over, you know, a year and a week ago. Cairo Schinell and another journalist put out an article about Alan Weisselberg lying to the Southern District of New York about me, they knowing that he lied about it. They continued to use that lie to the grant, you know, to present evidence to the grand jury against me, right? I mean, and ultimately, right, they gave Weisselberg limited immunity for his testimony. Now, if this isn't enough to make you want to pull your hair out of your head and say, this is why nobody trusts the Department of Justice.

45:24These types of stories, which this one happens to be true, they he lied. And he's not the only one that was a guy named Gene Friedman who lied. Obviously, Avanadi lied. You know, there's so many people who had misinformation and or created information. This is why Donald Trump was able to take advantage of what people know is wrong with this country and expand upon it and get them into a, you know, into a a fervor, right? And the sad part, you are 100% right about this and it should scare everybody listening to this podcast, 10%, 25 million people. Those motherfuckers are armed and they're armed to the teeth. These are the people when they hear that something's going on. The first thing they do, they go to the sporting goods store and buy more ammo. These are the people. No, I think we're reaching,

46:25you know, we have reached a dangerous point that is just going to get more and more dangerous because you know, there are just fewer and fewer guardrails up there. You know, there was a couple of nanoseconds after January 6, where Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy were attacking Donald Trump and saying that things had gone too far. And then when the dust settles, they're back, you know, sucking up to him and, you know, the Republican Party is left with 10 house members going to vote for impeachment was chainy and being one of them. And I believe that with her loss now, eight of those 10 are out are going to be out of Congress either, you know, defeated or designed because they would have been defeated, right? So, you know, it's like what what I've been saying for the past four or five years, six years now is, you know, we can't yet even see the bottom. We don't know where the bottom is on all this because, you know, Trump just becomes more

47:26and more outrageous. And as that succeeds within the Republican cosmos, it also raises a shitload of money as you noted. Other Republicans emulate him. So you've run a status down in Florida, Christie Known and North Dakota. And they're all, you know, just, you know, aping his, you know, divisive and fear-mongering rhetoric. So it's not as if there's even a fight within the Republican Party over different approaches. You know, there's just one path forward here. And it's or, orocracy authoritarianism and, and, and demagoguery. And it's really up to the rest of the nation to see this for what it is and to say we need to find ways to segregate this portion of the public and this portion of the political system. And if we don't take it seriously, we're going to end up with minority rule, and perhaps minority rule, you know, reinforced by violence or the

48:28threat of violence. Oh, yeah, I'm with you on that one. Now, David, I've read your recent article about Liz Cheney. And I give her so much respect. I don't agree with a lot of her policy. In fact, I don't agree with most of her policies. However, this is a person with a lot of heart and a lot of love for this country. I mean, she knew that this was going to cause her to lose, you know, her primary. But I just read your article about Liz Cheney giving us all permission to be inspired by her courage and even her concession speech whereby she pointed out that Trump and Republicans are a direct threat to democracy. Now, in that article, you pose the question that if she decides to run for president, that she will either hurt Trump by actively working against him or help him by providing non-Trumpy independence another choice besides the Democratic nominee.

49:28Now, it may be too early to say, but what's your gut telling you if she runs? Who ends up benefiting? You know, it is too early to tell. This is sort of punting that I like the least, but my gut tells me that Trump is very widely, as you know, and he's very good at playing one thing off against another thing, and that I would, you know, without getting into numbers and letting me get independence and Republicans to do six percent may not like Trump, you know, my gut feeling would say that anything that makes the choice cloudy, Trump will likely find a way to benefit from that. So having a Democrat, you know, a pro-democracy Democrat, just taking him on, it may be the best sort of battle than one in which there's any sort of triangulation and the all the forces of democracy,

50:34and I don't mean capital D with the Democratic Party. I mean, small D democracy can basically get behind one anti-Trump force is probably, you know, the benefit of the Republic. You know, so it's more of an abstract gut feeling that I have at this point in time. And, you know, and, you know, as someone who has written a lot about the Iraq War and the deceit that brought us to the Iraq War, which led to thousands of American dead GIs, and about 200,000 or more Iraqi civilians, not fighters, the deaths of Iraqi civilians and the violence that happened after the invasion. You know, I consider Dick Cheney and people and George W. Bush and people who supported this and lied to the public, you know, the equivalent of war criminals. And so, you know, Liz Cheney is really on that list for me. And, of course, you know, she's a hard right conservative,

51:38anti-choice, and, you know, wants to give tax breaks to the rich and hasn't done anything for climate change. So, in policy, there's nothing there that, you know, to praise her for, from my perspective. But, you know, we have a political culture in which we see so few examples of politicians taking tough courageous stands, putting their careers on the line. And other Western democracies is quite common for a member of parliament or a member of a cabinet to resign if he or she disagrees with the actions of policies of their party or the prime minister. It happens all the time. And it's, I think it's very notable and noteworthy that people do that. It doesn't happen here. We don't have that culture here. And we don't have the culture here of people making hard decisions politically. So, I really don't see any political gain in anything she's done and believe that she's only doing it because she believes that it's the right thing and that Trump and the Republican

52:42party do pose a threat to American democracy. And the one thing as the Americans that we should be able to agree about, if we can't agree on abortion and climate change and taxes and housing and health care and everything else, if we can't agree on all that other stuff, we should be able to agree that it's important to have a functioning and strong democratic system. If we don't can't, if enough people don't agree with that, we're doomed as a nation. So, I am happy in this moment of crisis to say that she and I are on the same side of that top priority question. And I salute her for that. And I hope that with her help that we put off, we stave off the threat to democracy that Trump and others pose and that we can go back to really disliking each other on the basis of policy and having really strong, fierce debates. And I'd love to get back to criticizing her, forget standing in the way of American progress because of her policy positions, right? Yeah.

53:46And if we succeed, we will have the luxury of doing that once again in the future. Yeah. And I too salute her. But Tyler Reddick here from 2311 Racing. Victory Lane? Yeah, it's even better with Chamba by my side. Race to ChambaCasino.com. Let's Chamba. Don't purchase necessary, VTW Group, void, we're prohibited by law, CTNCs, 21 plus sponsored by ChambaCasino. You also retweeted an article by Molly Jung fast about how Joe Biden is like a phoenix rising from the ashes. And it really has had an impressive run of late. But do you think it's enough to get us across the finish line in November? I mean, do you really think that Biden has the juice to help Democrats keep the House and the Senate? Yeah. Well, I have a newsletter called our land. People can find it at davidcorn.com. Sign up for free. In which I just finished writing

54:48the issue that comes out tomorrow. And I note that everyone has noted that Biden's been on a bit of a good streak lately. I think that the Democrats for the, you know, this happened with Obama in the first two years of his administration. It's happening up to now in the first two years of the Biden administration. They just do a really bad job of messaging and conveying the accomplishments and the achievements they're doing and how it makes a difference. It could make a difference in the lives of many American voters. They just don't really seem to get around doing this. I look at the example of Trump. I don't say they should emulate it, but you know what Trump does. He just says, I'm great. Everything's great. The economy's never been better. I'm best president since Abraham Lincoln. I'm a better president. Abraham Lincoln. He says it over and over and over and over again without even, you know, being able to pass an infrastructure bill without having, you know, claiming that he had a health care reform plan, which he never did. The only thing he

55:49succeeded with was tax cuts for the rich. And so I think in the last couple of days, even Biden has finally started congealing a message that is very critical of Republicans that is that highlights some of their advantages of the advances of the Democrats. And it's better for the Democrats now than it was three weeks ago. Is this enough? You know, basically, you know, this is Michael. There are 34 House seats that are up for grants that are considered to our seats. The other 400 seats are likely not to be swayed by anything that happens because they're either strongly Republican, strongly Democratic. So the real question, and there are all these Democratic groups out now that are taking out ads promoting Biden's legislative victories and attacking Republicans for wanting to criminalize, in many cases, all abortions. And the issue is really whether the Democrats can pinpoint this new juice they have, whether it's from Biden or from, you know,

56:51Super PACs and others, on those 34 races. I mean, you don't need to spend that money, you know, in my home district where Jamie Raskin is a member of Congress, right? He's not threatened, but they are these 34 seats and, you know, and what will determine the, you know, what happens to the nation in the next couple of years is what happens in these 34 seats in the next three months. And I'm hoping that the Democrats are smart enough to really just flood the zone, you know, this very small zone with the message from, you know, with the, you know, with the hard edge message from Biden and advertising from these outside groups. And, you know, I might, I wouldn't predict the Democratic victory, but I think they, you know, they have a, they have a better shot now in the house, and they have a great shot actually in the Senate at the moment, because Trump forced the party to basically pick losers. They look like losers at this point for some key Senate races, Herschel Walker and Georgia and Mehmet Oz and Pennsylvania.

57:58So the Democrats, prospects in the Senate are so much better than they seemed six months ago. Yeah, I'm worried more about the White House. I mean, whatever is going to happen, look, say whatever you want about Trump and his picks and so on. He's like 92% so far, um, correct when he makes these endorsements for these folks. And that's dangerous because the people who he's endorsing are all not just forget about Trump supporters. These are election deniers. These people are still running around, getting up onto stages, talking to their constituents, and refusing to acknowledge that Joe Biden is the president of the United States and that he actually won the election. You know, you get guys that are out there, you know, trolling them at some of their functions, you know, like Walter Pacman, who's funny as hell and turns around and the guy,

58:58and he's making up all this crazy stuff about how, you know, my father is putting jail, you know, for a multitude of reasons like with January 6th, and his underage wife can't even come and visit him. And he just says these funny, funny things that would make you stop if you had half a fucking brain and say to yourself, what are you talking about? This is all the the Trumpism Republican nonsense by these MAGA fools that just keep parting with their money to an alleged billionaire to provide him with his life. But look, let me go into the primaries for a second here because the primaries have elevated a whole lot of election deniers. Now, first of all, do you think the Democrats have it together enough to take Republicans on in November? Because we've got no shortage of things to run on. I mean, Biden's recent wins, plus you have abortion rights, gun safety, you have the environment, climate change, but in some red states,

1:00:03in most of these red states, it just doesn't matter. What happens when election deniers win in November or don't win and then ultimately don't even accept the outcome? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of that question there. I mean, I do think the Democrats have the raw material to make a strong case, particularly in those toss-up seats that I mentioned a few moments ago, they're not going to convince this is not about persuading Trump MAGA voters in red states. Those people, I think, are by and large, unreachable. And I think the long-term goal of Democrats and independence who are reality-based has to be, and I keep coming up with this term, to segregate that section of the political system and try to find ways to work around it. Because it's not going away, it's immutable. You can't change it. You need to try to keep it as small as possible, right? And so, Doug Mastriana, who's running for a governor in Pennsylvania, he's not just an election

1:01:11denialist the way, and he was at the right in the capital in January 6, as so many of these other people, he's also like a QAnon type, as does Mark Finchham, who's running for Secretary of State in Arizona, who would be in charge of election certification? Should he win? Both endorsed by Trump, both election denialists. I mean, in some ways, the MAGAites have been smart about going after these positions where you can control the infrastructure for determining who wins elections. And if they win in some of these places, we could end up with an apartheid-like system, where a minority determines who gets power. David, do you remember, David, do you remember going back in around 2018, you and I had several conversations, but one of the things that I also turned around and told you was that Donald Trump used to repeat this one pooped in line, and he thought it was the most clever and the most

1:02:13interesting line he's ever heard, that it doesn't matter who you vote for, all that matters is who's counting the vote. And somewhere, that sick-deranged belief system is now coming to fruition when you have all of these local electors, right? These elections for these lower-level city-state elections are now part of these Trump, you know, denial these Trump supporters. I don't even know what to call these folks, but these are the people that will be making the decision on what votes count and what votes don't count. And so long is, again, in all that matters is who's counting the vote, as long as their vote, as long as their determination is for the candidate Trump or one of the Republicans that Trump is endorsing, we're good to go. And this is the essence of authoritarianism, right? It's not the people deciding, it's the

1:03:18leaders deciding what should be decided. And, you know, most authoritarian states and governments have elections, right? Think about, you know, Saddam Hussein winning with 98.2% of the vote. And same with Vladimir Putin, yep, same thing. Oh, right. They have elections in and of themselves don't guarantee democracy and freedom. They only guarantee democracy and freedom if they indeed are democratic and free exercises. So, you know, we could still have this, you know, this patina, this fake, you know, veil of democracy with people who are basically rigging the system. How are they going to be doing this? And yet, going back to the word of deflection because ultimately, because ultimately, it's a authoritarianism and it's fundamentalism, right? In a way, people think of fundamentalism as being

1:04:18just, you know, religions, you know, Christian fundamentalism. But going back to my turn when I said to you, deflection, this is exactly what Trump is doing. He's setting the stage that he wants, but yet he's making the allegations that the Democrats are fixing and rigging the system so that no Republican can win. It's crazy. But let me ask you this then. Post-Dobb, right? Now, post-Dobb judges are making these insane decisions about abortion rights based not on law, but on what seems like personal preference. I mean, you know what just came out and I think you were tweeting or talking about it, a three-judge panel claimed that a 16-year-old girl in Florida was too young to make a choice to abort, essentially forcing her to give birth or leave the state. Now, she's just one of thousands of these types of cases. We all know about the 10-year-old and so on. Do you think that the Supreme Court will come to regret destroying Roe or has it just simply

1:05:20emboldened the far right wing of the court to keep rolling back our rights? So, for example, you know, abortion today, gay rights tomorrow. What's your thoughts on this? Well, you know, that case, it's pretty bizarre that 16-year-old, the case of the 16-year-old, when they say she's not mature enough to make a decision about what to do with her own body in terms of giving birth or not, but they believe she's mature enough to be a parent to raise a child that she doesn't want. I mean, it's like, you know, there's no logic there. You know, Justice Alito gave this speech, was it, I believe it was in Rome a couple of weeks ago, when he was literally chortling. You don't use that word too often, but I think it was, he was just chortling about the the Dobs decision and how it made people so mad, but he was like happy, it made people mad. He was kind of bragging about it. So, I think, you know, I don't think they will come to regret this. The question is whether Republicans will come to regret this. We do see in, you know, across the country, you know, it seems to be a spur, a burst in women registering

1:06:28to vote, more women than men. And it seems, you know, reasonable to assume that's in relation, you know, that's in response to the Dobs decision. And that's why, you know, I'm, you know, wondering if the Democrats and others looking again at these 34 toss-up races in the House are going to be determining if, you know, abortion, rights, reproductive rights can play a role in these particular congressional districts, whatever happens, you know, whatever, whatever is said nationally. So, I do think, you know, it's one of the things that has fired up some Democrats. And, you know, it's, it's part of human behavior. Part of the way our mind works, that losing something is often more important to us than gaining something prospectively. So, we, you know, a lot of women, and, you know, men enjoy these rights, too, indirectly, had this right to privacy in order to make the decision themselves. Taking that away from someone

1:07:30is incredibly, you know, both disempowering, but also angering, right? So, I think it, you know, I think it really motivates some people to get involved and think about the election in the political system in ways they haven't, because, you know, it's easy to get used to rights. So, you know, we get, but you're, but now we have to worry about marriage equality, you know, access to contraception, and even, you know, you know, anti-saudomy laws. So, I mean, Thomas, Justice Thomas is indicated he wants to go after all that again. So, this is a fight that's not good politics for the Republicans, as long as the people who care about this stuff come out and vote. So, I want to stay on that for one second, because, look, you're the DC bureau chief of Mother Jones, right? On top of that, will you have your newsletter and so on? What if this newly proposed ban that's so sweeping, it could actually criminalize journalism? Now, according to your paper, right, abortion opponents don't want us to read the news about abortion,

1:08:35right? And I'm going to quote here, model legislation championed by the National Right to Life Committee wouldn't make it a felony to publish information about abortion, that a woman might use to obtain an abortion. Now, the list includes websites and telephone communications. I mean, seriously, how close is this sort, how close is this ship to censorship becoming a reality? It's very close. It's very or well-earned. It's like 1984, you know, librarians and people who work at places like Google are worried about cops, you know, DAs and, you know, reds, conservative states coming and saying, give us all the information on whether this person looked up abortion information or who is looking, who's searching for abortion clinics. You go to Google and say, give us all the Texas residents who have put in a search for abortion clinic,

1:09:37so they can go in. I mean, there are tremendous ramifications here as the far-right Christian Nationalist and Republican Party all band together to try to, you know, prevent anybody from getting an abortion anywhere anytime. And, you know, they're targeting, you know, that long Texas that lets people sue fellow citizens over this, you know, that the law you just mentioned. No, I think, you know, this is, it goes foreign beyond just stopping a particular practice or medical procedure. It really gets to the nature of our society, the nature of freedom and privacy. And at this point, I think, is empowering the forces of fundamentalism while waking up those forces who believe in freedom. Yeah, well, look, we also know that Donald Trump, you know, may not be the cancer, but he's certainly a part of it, right? And

1:10:42Ron DeSantis, I always consider and I refer to Ron DeSantis on this program as Donald Trump 2.0. I mean, what is Ron DeSantis up to in Florida, right? Because now he's tinkering with public education. He's tinkering with the whole system, rewriting history, and simply just making shit up that educators are supposed to teach no less. So, I guess we can call it culture wars, but it seems to me to be more like homegrown fascism, what you were just talking about. How is this a winning strategy for Florida? How is this a winning strategy for DeSantis? How is this the same shit's going on with Greg Abbott in Texas? How is this a winning strategy for him? I mean, is this really what people want or would you classify this as the erosion of democracy being forced upon us? Well, I think you're right. It sounds hyperbolic, but it is a type of

1:11:44proto-fascism. If you look at how fascist states come in, what do they want to do? They want to control the radio, the TV stations, they ban books, they burn books. Basically, they want to control the flow of ideas, right? Anything that is not of service to them. And this IV educated fellow Ron DeSantis would just don't say gay bill and with forcing or trying to indoctrinate teachers in misguided versions of American history. He's taking the culture wars to a extremely new level. This is really about Republicans playing the politics of grievance. You saw this with the whole effort about critical race theory. Here we are a country where we're faced with extreme weather events because of climate change, the middle class in industrial America is hurting

1:12:51tremendously. The cost of education here is a thousand times higher than the place, same thing, other western democracies, same with health care. And they're running around, trying to cry about Mr. Potato Head, Dr. Seuss, then they think they hit gold with the critical race theory, then they move on to pedophilia. Whatever they can to not talk about the big issues, and to prey on people's fears, resentments, grievances, and say, you know, bigotries and make this about, you know, the other side doesn't accept you, doesn't believe in your value. So when they raid me, they're raiding you and they want to deny you and defy you and denigrate you and erase you and eradicate you. I mean, this is all, it's like the great replacement theory that the Tucker Carlson, you know, puts on that the other side is out to obliterate you and America,

1:13:54your culture, your ideas, your religion. You know, last time I checked, there's nothing that a single Democrat or progressive has ever done that prevent anyone from going to the church they want to go to. You just, you know, you just, you know, believe, pray and say whatever the heck you are. Yeah. So David, let's talk about somebody that is involved in that entire aspect and has been by Trump side doing exactly that. And I'm referring to Steve Bannon. Time ready for a fun way to chill out and enjoy a few minutes for yourself. Let's jump. No purchase necessary. VGW Group voidware prohibited by law, CTs and Cs, 21 plus sponsored by Chamba Casino. What do you think Steve Bannon's fate will ultimately be? Because I saw that

1:14:58Mother Jones just published the transcript of the leaked Bannon 2020 tape where this moron gives away the game about how Trump planned to steal the election and his part molding Trump's various strategies from hazing the Clintons to setting the insurrection into motion, including, you know, his Muslim ban going back to the first thing Trump did in 2017. I mean, he lost his contempt of Congress case, but do you think that he'll ever do time? And if so, will he emerge from prison, a MAGA hero or a MAGA wash up? You know, I think he sees himself as, I don't know, sort of a Bism, the Bismarck of far right racist nationalism. You know, this guy was cheering on Putin and the run up to the war in Ukraine because Putin doesn't fly rainbow color flags.

1:16:00He's been for, you know, since the 2020 election has been encouraging his followers and MAGA types to become precinct workers and to infiltrate the election system at the very, very, very grassroots, you know, sort of just, you know, where they can raise objections to individual voters. I mean, he really does things strategically. He tried to pull together all the far right nationalist populist racist political movements in the West. And that didn't go so well, but I don't think he's giving up on that. You know, he is a grifter. You know, I do think he has some legal liability on certain issues, but he's not going away because he's very smart in a way. And he knows how to channel, you know, people's angers and fear and try to create strategy out of that.

1:17:02So I think he will be of use to whoever comes after Trump, whether it's DeSantis or someone else. And not necessarily as an inside player, but as someone on the outside who is molding the intellectual, if you can call that constructs of the MAGA movement, while at the same time grifting by trying to sell them cryptocurrency, which he is doing. I look, I have no love for Steve Bannon. I couldn't believe when at the very beginning, when I first gone to the White House and Trump asked me, you know, what I thought about the Muslim ban, and I said, you're joking, right? I mean, why would you do everything we talked about was supposed to be infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure. I mean, that was supposed to be his strength and had this moron, listen to me, probably would have won the next election. But you know, David, as we're winding down the hour because time flies here on May, a cult, but when you're having fun, I have one last

1:18:02question for you. With Trump involved in so many legal battles, and of course with no real lawyers to defend him, there has, I mean, there's got to be a point of saturation where the public finally says, that's it. Fucking enough is enough already. Do you think we are anywhere near that threshold, or is it a pipe dream to think that Trump and his cult will implode anytime soon? You know, I kept, I've been waiting for that saturation point, which is a scientific term since 2015. You know, I remember talking not to you, but to some of the other political advisors to Trump shortly before he went down the escalator and announced his presidential bid. And I said, what opposition research do you worry about the most? Is it some of his ties to mobsters in the past? Is it his comments about women? His bankruptcies and business deals that, you know,

1:19:08that will look questionable to some, his back and forth and policy matters. You know, you know, what do you worry about most? And they said to me, none of that. Our premise is that everyone knows who and what he is. And the question for us is, do people want an asshole as president? Essentially, a son of a bitch who's fighting for them and protecting them when it comes to their grievances and resentments? Because if they do, none of the other crap will matter to them. Whether he is good in a debate or not, or whether he has a, you know, had a deposition 10 years ago in which he lied through his pants, it won't matter. And it's proven true that no matter, you know, just go back to, you know, the Axis Hollywood tape, right? That, you know, there's, it seems to me there's nothing that he can do to turn off his core supporters. The question is, if as we get closer to 2024

1:20:08and he wants to run, whether they're at the edge of that of his support, some independence or some other Republicans who just, well, they still may love him. Just think that in the bigger world, these liabilities may hurt him or the poll. And the problem, but David, let me, let me throw something in here that I want your response to it. The problem with that is who's going to be the Democrat that will run against him. So if it's going to be another Trump versus Biden, you know, election, I'm not so certain Biden can pull it off this time. You know, his numbers are dismal, despite the fact I think he's doing, he's doing a very good job, but his age is a big problem for him. People just do not, they don't resonate with him. And Trump supporters resonate with him. Now, they're not enough. But what if we don't get the right Democrat to run against him? I have real concerns. But I definitely think that Trump could get the nomination and he gets the nomination.

1:21:13He could win again. I mean, I, you know, it was close last time. I don't think, you know, you know, anyone should sort of think that that's not a strong possibility. I do think, you know, that Biden has these obvious liabilities. I don't think we can assess how strong they are as liabilities until you get closer to the election, maybe or yourself from now. But yeah, I do think that you will be a tough decision for the Democrats overall, whether they stay with him, even if he's doing what seems to be to Democrats a decent job or not. And I think it'll be a tough decision, I think, quite frankly, for him, you know, whether he's upward and can run again. You know, he has the argument that he beat Trump. He's the only Democrat who has ever beaten Trump. So, you know, there's that. But there, it will be a very difficult calculation for him, his

1:22:16aides, his family, Democratic party, big shots and Democratic voters. You know, Gavin Newsom is not taking ads out across the country for no reason here, right? The governor of California. So I think, you know, things could be radically different a year from now. But, you know, the MAGA heights are not going away. Trumpism is not going away. Even if Trump goes away, Trumpism is totally, totally, totally agree with you. Everything that you and I talked about this hour, you know, what will not be settled or decided by a single election, whether it's 2022 or 2024. I think these are long-term challenges that are pretty deep rooted and that the country's going to have to handle and deal with for a lot longer. David, thank you so much as always for joining me on MAGA. Call for good to see you. My friend, stay in touch and we'll have you back because there's a lot to talk about. Yeah, I have a book coming out in a few weeks and we can

1:23:19come back and talk about that. 100%. David, great to see you. I'll speak to you soon. And now for today's Mayor Copa, I'm not a doom and gloom sort of guy. I'd like to imagine that in the end, it's all going to work out. But right now, I'm not so sure. Millions of Americans have been radicalized by the right. When I say radicalized, I mean, taught to hate their perceived enemies and their enemies or whoever Trump and the MAGA puppet masters wants them to be. Back when Republicans were running against Trump in the primaries, he basically kicked them in the nuts. Trump was a fucking bully, a relentless asshole like they'd never seen before. But did they call them out? Fuck no. They just wish they could be him. And now they are. And since people follow leaders, being an asshole has just become part of being a Trump Republican or a Trump Republican, as the kids say, it's not just accepted, it's recommended. At present, the right

1:24:24wing media is using the Mar-a-Lago search as an excuse to foment civil war. The moment Trump announced that the FBI was raiding his beautiful home, and again, it ain't his fucking home, a memo must have gone out to all Trump-licans ordering them to compare the FBI to the Gestapo. They call the Biden administration a regime and claim that the government is so far gone that the only cure is to burn it down and build what? Who the fuck knows? They just stuck on burning it down. Last Friday, Twitter suspended the account of a guy running for state senate in Florida when he announced that if elected, he'd have federal agents shoot on sight. Has Governor Ron DeSantis denounced a member of his own party for threatening to kill federal agents? Fuck no. DeSantis also is an asshole. Early last week, there were bomb threats made against way for it, boasting children's hospital. Why? Because a far right online message board reported

1:25:31that doctors were lapping off the private parts of little kids. Does it occur to any of the would-be bombers that bombing the hospital would kill the kids too? No, but whatever. They're fucking mad. They don't care and looking for reasons and online forms to blow shit up, especially now now that the government is coming to take their guns and hold them hostage for unpaid taxes. What is it going to take for these radicalized Trump-licans to realize that they're being used, that the assholes in charge are taking their money, they're taking their futures, their peace of mind, and replacing it with dark visions of a civil war? So yeah, I'm worried that no matter who wins the upcoming elections, we've already lost the America that we all grew up with. My hope is that we learn from this bad chapter and still strive to create a more perfect union. And never forget, if you don't call out an asshole, he'll eventually try to burn your house down too.

1:26:35And thanks for listening. The landscape is more confusing than ever. Donald Trump may have lost the battle for the presidency, but in many ways, Trumpism is still winning the war on the state and local level. May a copus here to help guide you through the wilderness and keep you informed. And let's face it, we all want Trump, Rudy, and the rest of these seditious traitors to see justice and folks, I promise you, it's coming. So stay tuned as I guide you through the twists and turns of the criminal process that will ultimately see them behind bars. May a copus, nothing but the truth.

1:27:56It's now or never, or when it comes to life, or when it comes to life. This is my, this is my, my mayor copus. It's coming on time, and you know where I'm wrong to bring it on down, bring it on down, bring it on down. Tyler Reddick here from 2311 Racing. Victory Lane? Yeah, it's even better with Chumba by my side. Race to ChumbaCasino.com. Let's Chumba. No purchase necessary, VTW Group, voidware prohibited by law. CTNC's 21 plus sponsored by ChumbaCasino.