BONUS: The Surprising Link Between Joe Exotic And Olivia Newton-John

0:00This is carrying to me. This is an exciting look into a world that a lot of people don't know exists and it absolutely sets every bit of me alive. It involves smuggling, it involves exotic animals, it involves breaking the law. What more could you want? Monsters of God is available now on HBO Max and joining us to talk all things monsters of God. Is there a good get a Eric? Hi guys. What brought you to make monsters of God? I've always had a love affair with reptiles since I was a kid and I just was getting more and more involved as I got older in life with reptile conservation and traveling the world. And I just thought I'd make a film about the reptile world, a documentary. There was a book called The Lizard King that came out in 2008 that inspired me and I started

1:04filming about 12 years ago seriously and that ultimately turned into monsters of God. There were a few things that got in the way, Tiger King and Jim Crazy, but I started out wanting to do a story about reptiles, not big cats. Where does the name monsters of God come from? So it has different meanings. Of course, some reptiles are maybe monsters of God like saltwater crocodiles and other commoto dragons, other ferocious reptiles. But I think really were the monsters of God, human beings. And we do things under the guise of being God-like because we like to put ourselves above all other animals, but we're really the monsters of God. It's a fascinating world to me. I think when I first watched Tiger King, which you also made and you just mentioned, I didn't realize there was a whole industry of private citizens having exotic animals and what a huge

2:07black market that was. You mentioned you're a conservationist. I imagine the treatment of these animals once they're in the hands of private citizens is not always the greatest. You must meet a lot of characters when you're making these shows that are really at odds with your personal values. Yeah, but you want to figure out what makes people tick when they're not like you. And I always find that there's just odd, strange people everywhere in the world. I'm sure you have them in Australia. Not just in the United States, to be fair. But yeah, I like interesting, unusual, quirky people. The animal world seems to be filled with them. So Hooka-Seen, tell us about some of the characters in this series and what they're smuggling. Well, they're smuggling a lot of Australian reptiles.

3:11The very first bearded dragon that came to the United States was smuggled out of your country, Australia. Now they're everywhere in this country. Every kid has a baby bearded dragon or a bearded dragon. Blue tongue skinks which come from Australia. Australia, by the way, is reptile enthusiasts. Paradise. Yeah. Let's see, or paradise. Thank you. You have all kinds of interesting pythons, diamond pythons, children's pythons. You have incredible lizards. You have frill dragons in Australia, pig nose turtles. So a lot of the smugglers target Australia because Australia has been a closed country. You can't take animals out of Australia without special permits. Thank you for Australia. Thank you for doing that. And so if people listen to these and if particularly if they haven't yet seen the travel for the show, how and they think themselves, how does one smuggle a reptile?

4:18How do people go about it? Well, you know, a blue tongue lizard, as you guys just mentioned, can easily be taped to your thigh, put down your pants, put in your luggage. You can hide things in your carry on. People also use very elaborate techniques. They send them in FedEx, boxes, UPS, they miss label things as something legal and it's not legal. There's all kinds of schemes to swagger reptiles. What is the most insane or disturbing thing you came across during filming this? Oh, God. Good question. I mean, it's surprising what people will do and how far they'll go to smuggle reptiles, you know, bringing, you know, putting 10 snakes down your pants, you know, only for them to escape on the plane and then you've got to figure out how to find the snake on the

5:20plane. That actually happens. That's not a movie. That happens. That actually happened. That actually happened and people, you know, bringing in commoto dragons for, you know, a lizard that, you know, can kill a water buffalo, you know, it's bringing in venomous snakes that you just can't believe someone would possibly put it in their carry on. Is there a similar characteristic or personality type to the smugglers in all of them that you met or are they all from different walks of life and different motivations? I mean, there are differences. I don't want to totally generalize, but if I had to generalize, I'd say that the pathology of the reptile smuggler and collector is to be able to find the thing or the animal that is forbidden, the rarest of the rare, the most valuable, the animal that nobody else can have, you know, and so people are looking for the most, the biggest trophy, you know,

6:20it's like people that collect coins or art, they want the most expensive, rarest painting in the world, a Picasso, a Matisse. You know, the reptile collector is the same pathology, they want to find and get the forbidden, the unattainable, the rarest of the rarest. So I don't think exotic pets should exist. I don't think people should have the right to have them, but I also do understand from a person's point of view, if they go, I love this animal and I'm going to look after it, what's the problem? Is there a world where maybe it's not as black and white as I see it and people can, you know, not necessarily be doing something bad and don't an exotic animal? That's a really good question. So in our country, we have crazy laws. So in this country where I live, everyone can have a gun, they can have a machine gun

7:24basically. I personally think that everyone shouldn't have a gun. We have more people killing each other in this country because you can just go out and buy a gun. So I think there are degrees as to which, you know, responsible laws should be in place for guns, you know, drugs, wildlife is included. So, you know, I think sometimes you shouldn't be able to have just everything you want. But I do think that kids that grow up with a pet bearded dragon or a little ball python might turn that child later in life into being someone that really wants to give back and care about reptiles and care about nature and protect nature. So I think we shouldn't have a prohibition where no one can have anything. But would I say someone should have a commoto dragon or a very endangered reptile that's going extinct? I'd probably say no. Obviously, the films you've made feature real people and then they're thrust onto the

8:29world kind of stage and we end up knowing the name Joe Exotic all around the world where we didn't before. We spoke to him on this show from prison and he didn't seem in a great way. No, I'm not saying that has anything to do with you. But I am interested after you finish a project. Are you able to let go of it or do the people from your projects stay with you in some sense or another? Of course they stay with me. I wouldn't be, you know, I have empathy for the people that I fill. And in the case of Joe Exotic, I would love to try to get Joe out of prison. He's been in prison for nine years. I don't think he should rot in prison for the rest of his life personally. I think Tanya had ex from Chimp Crazy. You know, she got busted a second time after we finished filming with another chimpanzee that she was harboring in her basement. And now she's doing four years in prison.

9:30You know, these people are their own worst enemy. Some people like to accuse me of somehow entraping them or somehow enticing them to keep these animals, which is absolutely not true. I tried to help Tanya, you know, the woman in Chimp Crazy after the show ended. I tried to give her really good advice. I really cared about her, but she wouldn't listen and she went and got another chimpanzee and she got busted and now she's doing prison time. So yes, I care about the people that I interview and I really try to be fair. There were a lot of people that thought I wasn't fair and they learned later that, okay, you know, the woman in Chimp Crazy really did do those things and she went and did it again and again and she would have kept doing it. Eric, before we let you go, I was doing a bit of research on you and read that you used to own a nightclub in New York in the 80s. Tell me something fun that happened at that nightclub that stays with you all these decades later. Oh, wow.

10:30I met Olivia Newton-John. I think she's from Australia. I met many people from Australia and I met other famous people from around the world. I did a nightclub in the early 80s when I was young because I wanted to do something creative. And for me, that was a place where I can express my creative fantasies and ideas. It was less about running a nightclub and I had many artists at the time, Andy Warhol and Johnny Shell Baskat. And many famous artists came and collaborated in the nightclub and many notable people from all over the world. And yeah, that was sort of the beginning of my career in New York City, which for most people think like a very unorthodox career path to later end up making documentaries. But weirdly, it connects and I won't go into that, but it connects in a way that you'd be surprised. I have what many would consider quite cliche, Tyson Art and Baskat is my favorite artist.

11:33Can you just tell me, was he a dream of a human? He was a complex, difficult person at times. He lived with my sister for three years. She's doing a book on Johnny Shell Baskat right now. I was with Johnny Shell the night he died from a heroin overdose. He was complicated and the addiction got worse and worse as time went on. But when you think he died at what I don't know how old he was 27. And he died in 1988, I believe. In such a short life, he had such an impact. But to be honest, he was my favorite artist of all those young new artists. I used to do my birthday with Johnny Shell because his birthday was in late December as it was mine. So we used to do that together. But he was a difficult guy, but I, you know, he was a friend and I agree with you. I think he was one of the really brilliant artists that didn't go to art school that had

12:34no formal training and look at where he is today. People, you know, pay tens of millions of dollars for Johnny Shell painting. Yeah, I believe you're within the 90 past away. That doesn't, that's a lot. That stays with you for life. I imagine something like that. That's horrible. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah. I've heard a lot of stories over the years from various celebrities saying that it would always annoy them when Andy Warhol would turn up because he'd always have their camera. And they, none of them would want to be on the camera. Did you? No, I don't believe that. But go ahead. I was going to say, do you have any memories from your nightclub of Warhol turning up with a camera and other celebrities then buggering off and leaving? Absolutely not. No, no, when Andy Warhol showed up in New York, it validated the night. All the celebrities wanted to be around Andy Warhol. He was never obnoxious with his camera. He wasn't like obnoxious paparazzi. He was very subtle.

13:34His camera was very small. He'd pull it up very selectively. He was not in your face with his camera with a flash. He was very discreet. So whoever told you that, I don't think that's really true. Andy Warhol was beloved in New York City. Eric, you've had a fascinating life and continues to make fascinating work. Monsters of God is available now on HBO Max. Thank you so much for taking the time. We really appreciate the chat. Thanks guys.