Batman Begins (Nolan Club Recast)

0:00Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway. It's stock up savings time now through April 2nd. Spring in for store-wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in-store tags to earn on eligible items from? Celsius, body armor, aura aida, silk, Capri Sun, Bavarian Meets, and Charmin. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event-long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in-store, nor online for easy drive-up and go pick up a delivery. Restrictions apply, see website for full terms and conditions. Hello friends and welcome to this week's Geek History lesson. It's a very special beginning for Geek History lesson, because well, it's not really a beginning. It's actually a begin cast, as they would say, or a recast, as we would say. Because if you know if you've been listening to podcasts, we have been doing a little journey through something I like to call Nolan Club. Yeah, that's right. We are so excited about Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. Coming soon, this July of this year

1:01that we've been going through his filmography, we covered Bemento, we've covered Insomnia, we're gonna save his original film the following for a little special bonus at the end. But now it's time to talk about Batman Begins. And you know, it's one of those nerdy movies that on the podcast, we've already talked about it. We did it. We celebrated the 15th anniversary of The Batman Begins in 2020 with the very special guest, comedian host, all around awesome guy, Mark Ellis. And so this installment of Nolan Club is all about Batman. We're gonna watch Christopher Nolan walk his way into Batman, feel Batman out, caress those capes and figure out if that is sort of the impulse that he got that led him on the road to make a sword and sorcery epic starring Matt Damon, who is not in Batman Begins, but Christian Bale is here. So, you know, there's a big actor around. There's a big British actor around.

2:01So it's, we're gonna be just fine everybody. But enjoy this look into Geekhush Rustin's past and also the look into Geekhush Rustin's future with the next installment of Nolan Club featuring Batman Begins. Take it away, past Jason and Ashley. Hello, everyone and welcome to Geekhush Rustin live. I am Jason on front of a blue starry background in men. I am Ashley Victoria Robinson and welcome to your mind university because you have stumbled onto the live version of the podcast where we take one construct from popular culture and teach you everything you need to know about it in about an hour except today because we're in the middle of summer, movie club. That's right. Very special guest, the wonderful, the amazing lover of course, member of the Legion of Shadows and all around Nice Guy. Henry Ducard slash Mark Ellis is back on the show. Welcome Mark, thanks for joining us.

3:03I almost called you Henry. Hey, you can call me whatever you want to but you know that I might go by another name that goes back to ancient times. So this is my starting name for today and not only, I assume when you said special guest you were talking about that little sleeping muffin behind me. Of course. That's why I off-centered my seating position so everybody can see the real eye candy in my apartment anyway. And that's Molly, the wonder dog. But yeah, I am, like I was telling you all, next time make me work a little bit because this is way too easy to talk about today. Yeah, this is, we'll just flat out say that today's episode is all about celebrating the 15th anniversary of Batman Begins. We're actually very close to even the premiere date of Batman Begins. We'll get in all of that in just a second about but it's so funny because when we decided to do this summer movie series, we were like, oh, what are some of the movies we could do? And on one of the podcasts, I mentioned that I had a pretty special connection to this movie

4:03and we threw it out as a hashtag, hashtag Batman Begins Yes. And we very quickly got, I think like 75. Like almost 100 people were like, you have to do this episode. So I'm so glad we had such a fun time with you, Mark, on the gladiator episode. So I'm glad that we can pull you in and we can talk about Batman Begins. So let's go into the first section of our podcast, the 10 cent origin, Ashley, what is that? The 10 cent origin is where we tell you all the basics, who's its and what's its galores? In case you ever go to a Christopher Nolan themed cocktail party and somebody says, what's up with that Batman Begins movie? Yeah. All right, so the release date in the United States for Batman Begins was of course June 15th in 2005. It was directed by Christopher Nolan. It has a screenplay by Christopher Nolan and David S. Goyer with a story by David S. Goyer. That just means that David S. Goyer wrote the story doc. That's it. He had a budget of a 150 million

5:04and a box office of 373.4 million, which is I think is very interesting because to nowadays, that would be considered a flop. Batman Be Superman made like $900 million. So this is like small potatoes compared to modern day, which is very interesting. And of course the synopsis of Batman Begins is Batman starts. Yeah, it's pretty much there in the title. He is in the title of the movie. And of course, there will be full spoilers for this film going forward. Let's talk about this really quickly. Mark, I'd like to hear your opinion on this. This is the only movie of this trilogy to use Batman in the title. Batman Begins good title, bad title. What do you think? I think it was a necessary title because you have to take everybody and pile them into the dolorean or phone booth or whatever your time travel method of preference is and go back to that time when we were still as a society recovering from bat nipples and bat nipples.

6:05Oh, boy, yeah. And so this is such a smart title because it's telling the world, hey, we're not associated with Batman and Robin. This is a totally different, this is Batman beginning again. And it really gets a sucker like me involved because I love a superhero origin story. Like I'm the last guy to get sick of, oh, it's Spider-Man and Uncle Ben again. Like I love seeing how a person becomes super. And so with Batman Begins, Batman's always been one of my favorite superheroes, but I do have to admit something at the top of this show. No. I feel shame, I feel guilt and y'all can just ex me out of this for whatever show if you want to. I did not see this movie in the theater. I did not go. I technically did not either. Okay, well, if we're gonna get into that. Well, yeah, we'll get to the full meat cube, sir. I was trying to bring you up full screen, Mark, but I completely screwed up. I did not happen. You trust me? The world does not need to see this any bigger than they already are.

7:05Someone has it on a giant TV right now. You know that's true. I'm certain. I'm certain. Okay, so let's go into the meat cute section of our podcast. Ashley, what is that? That is the second part of the podcast, a term we stole from Romantic comedy writing where we tell you where we first met Batman Begins and how cute it was. So Mark, you started your story. So I want to hear this. You said, tell me when was the first time you watched this movie? Tell me why you didn't see this movie in theaters. What was happening in 2005 with you? Your excuse is gonna be a lot better than mine because I imagine your excuse has something to do with serving our country and mine. A little bit. Other laziness because I lived right down the street at the time this came out from Arquight in Hollywood, like literally right down on Coenka under the 101. It was a glorious apartment. It overlooked the shell station and. I know exactly that intersection. Yeah, right, it's right across the street from that nice little crate place. And I just never walked down to the theater.

8:06Now this is back before Christian and I had started Shmo's and I was getting into stand-up. I was doing stand-up every night now and a lot of movies in the theater. And I think that there might have been a little bit of Batman fatigue still with me just because it was so hard to get the taste of really the last two movies out of my mouth. And I was excited that this movie was happening. So I can at least say that that I was pumped. This movie was coming out because it looked awesome. And I would read like box office results and all that stuff to see the movie was doing well for 2005. And I just never got my shubby buttocks down to Arquight to see it's the first time that I saw this movie. Yeah, Netflix sent me a DVD. And I put it in and I loved it. And it has been loved ever since to the point where I can still call it today my favorite comic book film of all time. Nice. That is great. Ashley, let's hear your story. Okay, so I didn't see this movie in the theater.

9:08The end, the first Batman movie I saw in the theater, the first alive action, was the dark night. Oh, okay. This movie came out when I was in high school and I had not seen, I'm very. I'm terrible. Kids, I couldn't have seen this for a nickel. And I had never seen any of the Batman movies that came out before this either because I was either not alive or very small. And I had only heard that they were terrible. And so I was like, why do I want to go see another Batman movie if they all suck? And then I saw the dark night because I loved Heath Ledger. And I went to a, I think it was called my uncle's basement. It was a local DVD rental place. And I bought a used copy of Batman Begins. So I saw it in 2008, after I'd seen the dark night, I watched the Batman Begins for the first time. And we still disappointed that Robin has not been

10:10in a live action Batman movie, produced by Christopher Nolan. Jason, I know your meet cute. It's a very interesting story. We have some chats from way, way early saying that they can't wait to hear your story. Lay it on us. OK, so this movie for me was the most, this film for me was the film of 2005. Now I know a lot of people are like, Revenge of the Sith was 2005. And yeah, I was excited for that one. But this was the movie that I was excited for in 2005 because if we all remember that first teaser trailer of him coming up the mountain and you were like, what is this movie? And it finally seemed like it was going to be the first movie to take Batman seriously. Now, if you know some things of my life, you know that 2005 was the year I spent in Iraq. I was mobilized as part of the Army and part of Operation Iraqi Freedom. So one of the downsides of that means,

11:10you don't get to see movies in movie theaters. Can't imagine why that would happen. But fate aligned and I had some chances to see this movie. Now, right around in June, because it's a movie count in June 15th, 2005, in Iraq there were these places called Haji Marts. Now, I know that's an offensive term. That's what they were called. Of course. Named after the character from Johnny Quest. Now, these were little bazaars, little shopping centers literally made out of plywood on the side of the road and villages right outside army bases that Iraqis would use to sell things to American soldiers. And one of the things they would always have would be illegal DVDs, okay? And they would even have DVDs of movies currently in cinema. So the first time I ever saw Batman Begins,

12:10it was in a legal camcorder in a movie theater copy of a showing in France. It was like it was so Batman Begins was in English but all the subtitles were French. And now here's the thing. And I did not know this until much, much later. Apparently whoever had recorded the copy that had made it to my illegal DVD. Apparently they must have gotten caught because I didn't know until much later that I was missing 30 minutes of this movie. So I watched this DVD. It was great. I loved it. I was like, oh my God, this is finally the Batman movie that I like straight out of the convicts. I loved every minute of it. Now flash forward about three months later to about September or October of 2005. Not exactly the certain time, but I got sent on a mission to do a convoy to Kuwait city.

13:10Now the greatest thing about Kuwait city is that Kuwait city, not in Iraq, of course, not in a combat zone. So you can act a little bit more like a normal person. So the greatest thing is there's a base down in Kuwait city called Camp Aerofjohn. It's still there. Some of my friends are serving there and stuff like that. And they have a tiny little movie theater. Now what I say about this, it has a little home theater thing that seats about 50 people with a decent sized screen. And when I was there in September, August, they were playing Batman Begins. And I was like, I've got to see this. Oh man, it's gonna be my opportunity to see this. So I go there and I'm watching Batman Begins. And this will tell you the cut I had. So the scene in the movie where he suits up as Batman for the first time and he puts Falcony on the bat signal. On my illegal DVD version, you went from Falcony on top of the bat signal. It cut to Bruce waking up from the fear toxin.

14:16So the whole subplot of scarecrow setting him on fire and doing the other stuff, it like, I had no idea that existed. I was just like for me for like three months, Batman Begins was only an hour and a half long. So when it didn't cut right to Bruce waking up, I remember literally sitting there in my mind being like, I was like, oh my God, I get to see this movie again for the very first time. And I gotta tell you, that may sound like really dumb, but for where I was and for how hard that year was for me, like that was like getting to see that movie for the first time again was like such a ray of light to me. And ever since then this movie has like held a very special place in my heart. And every time the movie continues past Falcony, I'm always like, oh, this is the good version. It's also another, it's like a real world example of why you should not pirate things. Yeah, you should go to the official release. I have so many questions.

15:16I'll try to wait for it to just a couple. So do you still own the DVD that you bought as like memorabilia? I think the statute of limitations is up. Um, I don't, but I believe my parents do. Very, I think it's still at my parents house, yeah. Okay, so then follow up question, which is so great for you because I know what a fan you are, is that you basically got to see your own version of the Snyder cut. Yeah. Three months later, did you also at that bizarre happened to find Revenge of the Sith, a pirated copy of that? Yes, yes. Also, I will tell you, I also bought from that bizarre, by the way, I bought two giant little box sets of Star Trek Connect generation. It was all seven seasons of Star Trek Connect generation on five discs. That should tell you the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the visual quality of these episodes. I bought all of the Simpsons on like two discs.

16:17You do have a couple of those. I, I still have those. I still have the Iraqi Star Trek TNG. And, and then, and then I bought all of Smolville. At that point, it was up to five seasons on like two discs. Oh, my, I won't send you on a wild goose chase through your house, but if you get a chance at some point and you find one of those, if you just want to send me a pick of it, I'm just, I'm curious because I've been to the Middle East, obviously, not the same capacity as you, but I've been into that area a bunch of times. And so you, I know exactly the style of like that bizarre that you're kind of talking about. And so it's just so fascinating that you could get something like that. And as a Batman fan, I mean, I take, I would take advantage of that too. It's pirated sure, but it's like, of course, I get to see Batman, new Batman. Yes, and that's exactly what it was. And that's why like I was so happy. I was so excited for this film. And I'm so happy that this film lived up to expectations for me anyways. So, okay. So let's get into talking about the movie here. I want to give you guys a little bit of production info before we jump into like going through the movie and order because there is some fascinating stuff

17:18into this. Basically, Christopher Nolan had directed insomnia in 2003. And it was because of that that Warner Brothers said, hey, would you consider doing Batman? And the only reason he said yes to Batman is that he was like, the only way I'll do Batman is if we can completely ground it in reality or as much as reality. As a superhero can be, as a superhero can be. Before this film, before they shot this film, he invited the whole production crew and the actors over to his house to watch 1982's Blade Runner because he said, this is the style of our Batman movie. And also like I think that explains why Rucker Howard is cast in this movie as well, the late Rucker Howard. But that's interesting to me because I don't know about you, Ashley. I don't feel Blade Runner in this movie. Do you? I don't necessarily, maybe an aesthetic sensibility. And in the idea that Blade Runner, when you compare Blade Runner to a lot of the other science

18:20fiction and science fantasy that was coming out at the time, it feels quote unquote gritty and quote unquote real world compared to back to the future or Star Wars. And this movie does the same thing for the superhero genre because Batman begins and Dark Knight really get lumped in with Superman returns a lot, which obviously happening around the same time in the same zeitgeist. And I will say Rucker Howard rocks in this movie. Rucker Howard does rock in this movie. A couple of the things, you may or may not have known this, but Christopher Nolan famously does not use second unit on any of his films. So all the action scenes, it's his hand behind the camera. Most movies, they farm that out to a second unit and let them completely direct the action scenes. But Christopher Nolan directs everything in all of his movies. And this is the only of the three Batman movies that was a team up on the score. It was Hans Zimmer and one of my personal favorites, James Newton Howard. Hans Zimmer took all the Batman parts.

19:22James Newton Howard took all the Bruce parts. And I'll be honest with you and Mark, I'd love to hear your opinion on this. I think the James Newton Howard parts are better than the Hans Zimmer parts, because I think there's a real humanity and a real heart to the Bruce Wayne themes. And I feel those parts are missing in the Dark Knight and the Dark Knight rises. What do you feel about the scores of all three of these movies? It's not only my favorite score of the three movies. I think it also is probably post 2000s. My favorite superhero score as well. Like I give Alan Silvestri a lot of credit for what he's done with the Avengers. And you know, it junky XL, I think it did a very credible job with Batman be Superman. But this is just, I think that this is the most memorable. If that makes sense, like the most replayable, the most radio friendly, if you will. And it also, when you talk about the action scenes too, that's very interesting. I didn't know that Nolan never used the second unit on any of the action, because I also think of the trilogy, these action scenes are the best of the three.

20:23I just, I never really bought it. One of my criticisms of the Dark Knight rises is that the action looked, it just didn't look as believable to me as what I saw with Batman Begins. Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway. It's stock up savings time, now through April 2nd. Spring in for store-wide deals and earn four times of points. Look for in-store tags to earn on eligible items from Lindor, Chipsahoy, Gatorade, post, Ziploc, and Zoah. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event-long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy, drive up and go, pick up or delivery. Restrictions apply, see website for full terms and conditions. It's tax season, and by now, I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to hear, $16 billion. That's how much money and refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one. One in four honest, hardworking, tax-paying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news.

21:24Liflock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, Liflock's US-based Restoration Specialist will fix it, backed by another good number. The million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with life-lock identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Visit lifelock.com-slash-i-heart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% off at lifelock.com-slash-i-heart. Terms apply. I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan. Hey, how's it going today? It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do. I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty awesome. I think I saw Billboard years recently that said 20 billion won.

22:2520 billion is an insane number. Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think, somewhere in North, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on. Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident? Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. It's pound 529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 24, 7, 365. Wow, Dan Morgan. From Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show. Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you. Well, so fun fact in my research for this podcast, I researched because I've noticed that as well. Like you can tell in the dark night that Batman fights a little differently. So apparently for Batman begins, and this is the only one they did it, they employed two fighting styles for Batman. One was they decided they decided to do this style called flash fighting.

23:26Where's this idea? Barry Allen comes in and fights for you. Technically no. I don't know if that would be very funny. No, it's the idea that you're moving on your opponent fast and furious with the idea that you're trying to overwhelm him. So we can't stay up with you. Which feels very bad, man. And the other style is the style of fighting that was designed in Spain in the 1980s, which is called KSA fighting. I might be saying that wrong, but it's like K-E-Y-S-I, but it's the idea as well of like being very improv-based with your fighting and being very reactive to how people are fighting. Which again, it feels very bad, man. But for dark night and dark night rises, I don't know why they didn't use either of those styles of fighting. It's interesting to me, because what I saw with Batman 2005 is it was getting to, and every action movie that was coming out around that time was kind of utilizing that Paul Greengrass-born identity style. And I always think about my dad when I watch action movies, because the born identity

24:28was the movie that he loved and hated at the same time, because he loved the story, but he just could not get into all the jump-cuddy action scenes. And I think that with Batman begins, it really has a nice marriage of the fast cuts for sure, but you also get to see enough of the mono and mono fighting style that makes it feel like you're watching an action movie, not just a crazy music video. This opening fight that people who are watching this podcasting famously visual media are seeing at the beginning when Bruce is in the prison camp, I think is so good and so well-correct. And I wish this, if this had come out like five years earlier or five years later, we would have actually been able to see all of the choreography. Because I do think the choreography is a little wasted in this movie, because this was the height of shaky cam fight scenes. And I like to see people pretend to hit each other. Let's talk about, let's get into the movie here. And I want to ask both your opinions. And Ashley, I would love to go first, because you're the comic book expert.

25:29I'm sorry, Mark. Hey, if I walk into a bar and they say we're having a comic book trivia, and I see Ashley is in the corner. I'm like, no, I'll get a drink somewhere else. I don't want any drink. It's like, hit another saloon, buckaroo. Let me tell you about the 90s Robin. So each of these three movies do not begin with any text. By the way, I know this movie's called Batman Begins. I did not mean for a pun there. I did not go for a begins pun. I'm sorry. Anyways, all three of these movies begin with no text and sort of a loose stylistic symbol, not even a logo. The opening of this movie is bats forming the bat signal. I can't remember what they do in dark night, but dark night rises is it's the ice. The ice breaks into the bat symbol. What do you guys think about this, Ashley? What do you think about this opening a movie with like symbolistically style symbol of Batman symbol? There's a lot of symbols in that.

26:30I don't know why I said symbol 50 times. Well, I like bats. I'm pro bats. So I like their inclusion here. Every bat in this movie is CG, which I think is unfortunate. It can be really cute, but it's nice to know that no animals were harmed in the making of Batman. I think it tells you everything you need to know about this movie totally, because we could have just come out with the yellow shield and the bat symbol, or we could have had a text overlay that's Bruce Wayne is the son of Thomas Wayne who was this magnet and Gotham city and I think this really sets the stage for what we're going into. And it's kind of like a well crafted academic paper. You know the thesis right up front. And then they use this motif of the symbol that's not the symbol repeatedly. I think with your mileage, your mileage on it may vary. I think Falcone on the bat symbol looks like a blob in the sky. I don't think it really recalls a bat as much as they're hoping. I do agree with that.

27:30Yes. And sometimes your mileage varies depending on this story about like, do you believe that Bruce Wayne is actually afraid of bats? But I think for the opening, I think it's very clever. Yeah, Mark, what do you, how do you feel about this? Well, it would be really funny if they put Mark Coney on the bat signal. And it just looks like a blob and so some shrub like me comes running up like, hey, I saw my signal. Oh, god, I'm so out of shape. I like what that opening does with the bats. It really is both extremes at the same time, because it is this huge, a grand was kind of opening because it's all these bats flying together. But it also is very reductionist in the sense that it's not making a lot out of it. Whereas the Tim Burton 1989 batman, the whole opening credits is just we're taking a tool in the bat signal. Yeah, the bat signal with this huge Danny elephant theme. And this one is like, look, we're taking this into a new generation. Thanks for sharing what you did, Timmy. We're moving this into a new era.

28:31And part of that is going back to basics. This is like a rebuilding batman phase and by brick and show you how he got to be batman. Yeah, that's an interesting thing is because also this movie begins in very much, and I hate to say this, but this is how I think people nowadays to talk about this. It begins in a very man of steel way, even though man of steel took it from this, that starting this movie in Asian prison in some country that we don't know, Nepal, China, Mongolia, who knows? Some Asian prison in the mountains somewhere. Here's Bruce Wayne. He's in prison, a place we've never seen him before. Unless you've read Bruce Wayne murderer. Well, that's true. Nerd. Anyways, and then Liam Neeson shows up. This is like a very weird way to start this movie, but also I think for 2005, this was part

29:35of the reason why this movie hit, because I don't think people ever expected them. I don't think you would ever see a Marvel movie start this way. That's so funny, because I think if you look at this through the lens of being a comic book nerd, I don't think this is actually that unexpected, because silver age and bronze age stories, especially Batman stories, and then a lot of the new Marvel characters, like the defenders that were coming up. There's a bit of exoticism here, dealing with Asian culture and Asian fighting culture. Thank you, Bruce Lee. We love you. And that's where Batman trained as a ninja. That's where that comes from. Wolverine gets that story. That's where Ironfish, Cheng Chi, I'll come from. So I think if you're looking at it through, I don't consider myself a comic book historian, but if you want to look at it through that lens, I think it actually makes a lot of sense, but I think in terms of a filmic point of view, that's where you're like, wow, I never thought I was going to see Bruce Wayne in what's essentially a gulag. Yeah, basically, yeah. Yeah, I mean, growing up in that era of the 90s,

30:35like I did, I'm obviously no comic book historian, but I can also tell you that I would go to the comic shop every week to see what's new in the box, and a lot of times when you get those darker tones, Batman, that, you know, like the Miller kind of Batman, even Batman in the animated series could occasionally get dark. So I think that growing up around the era that I did or obviously younger than me as Ashley, is that we were a little more conditioned through being able to see that this could be the way that you take a Batman movie. And I think that maybe in the back of my mind, that's what turned me off so much to Batman Forever and Batman and Robin, is that this didn't feel like the Batman that I was reading about in the comics at the same time. Interesting. So I want to talk about, I flashed him up on the screen here, if you're watching the live stream. Mr. Liam Neeson's. Liam Neeson's. Now this was, if you don't know, 2005 was the year of the Neeson because not only did he have a voice cameo in Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, but literally a month earlier than this movie,

31:38he also played very much almost the same exact role in a Ridley Scott movie named Kingdom of Heaven. Literally a month before this movie was released, he's playing like a sort of mentor, except he's not the bad guy in that movie. I actually think that Henry Ducard is a old school Batman character. I think it's an amazing poem pulled by David Goyer to put him in the script. But I guess we might as well talk about him all the way through. What do we think about Liam Neeson in this role? And also, what do we think about them taking the Liam Neeson good mentor archetype and turning it evil? He is the secret antagonist of this movie, which by the way, when I watched this for the first time on, as I call it to call it, the, my Snyder cut of Batman Begins, I never saw Rosalgool being Liam Neeson coming. I never predicted it in the million years. He's also at this time voicing Aslan in the Narnia movies as well, for another mentor position.

32:39Just the year before, yeah. Yeah, what do you think about that, Mark? Liam Neeson good in the movie is the reveal of him being Rosalgool a good choice. It's great. And you can clearly see whoever was the brand trust behind the take and franchise watching Batman Begins and be like, we got to get this guy. Just got to get a traction left in him. And what I do love about him is the ninja. He's such a great device because, yeah, the twist totally surprised me too, because we're just used to like, oh, here's the bad guy, let's stop him. With Liam Neeson in this, it's like showing you that Batman's methodology of fighting crime is going to continue to haunt him throughout his stellar career. Is that he saves this guy's life, who trained him? Thinking he's doing the right thing, thinking he's doing the just thing. And yet that really comes back to bite him in the ass when he finds out. Oh, he's not Rosalgool. And so we're gonna feel the same way when he has to combat Joker or Bana, whoever else he's gonna go on to fight.

33:40It's like, this is the thing that this guy has to rectify is that he can't reduce himself to being the criminals, but because he holds himself to such a moral code of chivalry, it might end up harming him at least making him burn a lot more calories. I kept making jokes during this movie when we rewashed this movie last night that I was like, hey, in the Dark Knight Rises community, Bane is just off camera. So like when Liam Neeson would say certain lines, like he was like, you am I great to student Bruce? And Bane would be like, I'm right over here. Hey. Ross, what about me? What I think is interesting and effective about this character is ultimately the writing on him because in the whole opening, training sequences, he has all these lines that are such Batman lines. Stitch things that Batman would say or feel like comic book accurate, Batman. But I think the unfortunate thing, and we talked about this on last week's episode, is Rosalgool is a Middle Eastern person who should be portrayed by certainly a person of color

34:42if not a Middle Eastern actor. And I think it's a freaking bummer that Ken Watanabe, who's incredible, is only pretend Rosalgool. Well, you gotta say this. I mean, I totally agree with you. Ken Watanabe, amazing actor. He would have been a fantastic Rosalgool. But my hope is, is that Christopher Nolan as well realized that and then was like, this is why I'm gonna bring you over to Inception. This is why I'm gonna give you, this is why you're gonna be the big boss rich man in Inception. Yeah, at least we can forgive our sins of the past if we give you a media role that's more fitting to you in the future. But the actually take on how comic book he feels, particularly in Mason, when he's delivering that speech to Bruce at that moment, when it's like, am I gonna be in the league of shadows and we're gonna go off on my own and he's talking about how society is not going to hold him to any less standard or more standard than criminals, that you're gonna have to deal with corrupt bureaucrats at every point. It's just, you feel defeated hearing him say that

35:42because you know a lot of what he's saying rings true and it's like, man, this Batman guy is gonna have to climb a mountain of paperwork and red tape in order to accomplish his mission in Gotham. He's gonna have to literally crawl out of a pit in two movies with a broken back. Yes, it feels in eight hours. Can we talk really quick about the league of shadows versus League of Assassins of this whole movie? I mean, I know Mark being a huge comic book fan has a hot take on this one. I still think I heard League of Shadows and I was like, oh, that sounds awesome. That sounds familiar. Have I heard that somewhere before and that you've been of my knowledge back to you, the experts? So when they were making this movie, they're called the League of Assassins in the comics, in the Batman cartoon. In Arrow. Well, Arrow comes after this, but yes, in Arrow. Whereas I like to call it Arrow Begins because it's just this movie stretched over a season. And I guess word or brothers was like, you can murder people but you cannot call them the League of Assassins.

36:42Well, because they want to change the name to League of Shadows instead. Even for how dark this movie is, they did want it to have an entire family appeal. And apparently that was the straw that broke the camel's back. That was the point where they were like, well, we have lot, we have explosions, we have gangsters that'll just shoot anybody. But if we call this group the League of Assassins, that's where parents will go crazy. I thought it was maybe just like, it was some sort of thing because like, X-Men has mutant copyrighted and so nobody else can say mutant yet to say like, oh, people with other types of powers. Like I thought it was just, but then somebody else had assassin down already, but that's a much better and accurate explanation. By the way, perfect timing here because Adam Grunther came in here with a super chat. The same, why do you think Chris Renollan changed the name of League of Assassins to the League of Shadows? Well, let me tell you Adam. I'll change the actual feel of this one. Let's see, Adam. Mark, let's just rewind the show. You'll figure it out. Luckily for us, this is a really well-documented, so like that's not a objection.

37:43That's really why this happened. Yeah, it was more, it was Warner Brothers executives basically forcing him to be more family friendly, which is kind of ridiculous, but Adam, thank you for that super chat and that question. All right, so I want to talk about this. A big part of this movie is flashing back to pre the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne and seeing all the Martha shenanigans. Although Martha does not have a very big part of this movie. Martha does not speak, nor does she get name at any point. She does speak. She says, I think she has one line after the opera where she goes, You're right, when they leave. And Thomas covers for Bruce. Yeah, she's like, oh, Bruce, was this you? Are you a little scaredy pants? And Thomas was like, no, it's me, it's me. Thomas is right, though, opera's exhausting. Yeah, opera is exhausting. But to be honest with you, I really like the actor that plays Thomas Wayne in this movie. I really like seeing young Michael Cain. And I actually think the actor that plays young Bruce does a pretty good job.

38:43Mark, it has been stated over and over and over again that we never, never need to see the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne ever on screen, ever again. Especially after I would say Joker's portrayal, where Joker was the one movie where I was like, okay, certainly we won't see it. The Joker decided to throw it in there. They're like, hey, Casey, forgot. Martha and Thomas Wayne get murdered. Shout out to Linus Roach who plays Thomas Wayne. He does an excellent job, I think. But Mark, 2005, I really like these flashbacks. This was one of the first times I felt Thomas was a real character and not just an archetype to be murdered so that Bruce can become Batman. What'd you feel about these flashbacks? It gives us so much context into the character of Bruce. And that's why I'm so thankful that we get as much as we do with Thomas Wayne because it shows you that incredible dichotomy of this mogul, this super billionaire guy who's trying to make the city better. And then you see after the murder what his son, the path that his son goes down

39:44that is just totally seemingly the opposite where he now he's stealing stuff halfway around the world. And you also get to know that he's been kind of sweet on Rachel since they were little kids. And so there's just so much fleshing out. You get this Alfred, you get to see the close relationships that Alfred had with the entire Wayne family. And then when Bruce eventually comes back to Gotham City, you see how important the Wayne name is, how much weight that carries. And the fact that now this guy's back, it changes the whole direction. It kind of puts it on its axis as far as Gotham City now having a Wayne back. And then it's up to Bruce to say, well now that I'm the Wayne in charge, what am I gonna do with stuff? Yes. And I really do think for the time for this reset, we did need the origin because there had been so much time. Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway. It's stock up savings time now through April 2nd. Spring in for store-wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in-store tags to earn on eligible items from Celsius, body armor, aura, aida, silk, Capri Sun, Bavarian meats, and Charmin.

40:44Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in-store or online for easy drive up and go pick up a delivery. Restrictions apply, see website for full terms and conditions. I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan. Hey, how's it going today? It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do. I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty awesome. I think I saw Billboard years recently that said 20 billion won. 20 billion is an insane number. Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think, somewhere in North, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on. Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident? Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's pound 529 from your cell phone.

41:46We are always open or our call centers always waiting to take your call. 24-7365. Wow, Dan Morgan. From Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm, thanks for coming by the show. Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you. The sun shining, birds are singing and all feels right in the world. Until the season changes. And suddenly you lose your motivation to get out of bed. In fact, one in five people experience some form of depression no matter the season or time of year. At the American Psychiatric Association Foundation, our vision is to build a mentally healthy nation for all because we want you to live your best life and be your best you all year round. Please visit mentallyhealthynation.org to learn more. Well, and actually, if you look at Adam West, Batman 66, they mention the murder. They never show it. Even who would have been a big tonal shift for that show? Yeah, right. Well, Chum, let me tell you about when my parents were brutally murdered in Alleyway, Chum.

42:46See, Batman, please do. OK. Martha got a bullet right to the face, Chum. The blood is right on my face. And at the time, I thought it was cool. But the shot in the head, and it just goes a bit. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Grievous head wound. Murder. Murder. Murder flashes across the screen. Robin, it comes back to Robin. He's crying. Per words, Robin, it's like, oh, dear God. Yeah, well, my parents were eaten by sharks. And that's why I always carry shark spray with me at all times. But even the Michael Keaton movies, you just see flashes of it. You never actually really see it. And besides Batman forever, it really never truly affects him, which is really weird, I think, sometimes. I'll speak up here as a member of Dead Parents Club. That is something that I think should always also be addressed in Batman. I don't know if it always needs to be a full seat. But yes, I think to leave it out of the storytelling, I think, is naive.

43:46But I hope that the next time we get a Batman origin, I hope you're listening, Robert Pattinson, and go, Martha actually gets to do something. That would be really nice. Cool. All right. It'd be very welcome. And with Batman 1989, I mean, you get the sense that his parents die, but that opening scene is as much about establishing Jack Napier as the villain as it is Bruce going through this torment. Because in Batman begins, what's so important about how much we see of the Wayne family is that not only were they his parents, but they were good parents. Like, you love that. They were good parents, yeah. Connection. And that is going to leave you feeling even more empty once you lose them as opposed to just, oh, he's rich and he's mainly raised by Alfred. Now, we have a great question here that I think is going to set off a hot take. I don't know if it's going to be that hot. Well, it won't be that hot. But I want to cover this before we get to my favorite scene in this entire movie. Adam Grunther has a super chat here. It says, what are your thoughts on Katie Holmes as Rachel? And do you wish she came back for the Dark Knight?

44:48Now, it's funny, during this movie, Ash and I were talking about this. And this was, I think, the height and the end of Katie Holmes' basic career. Because from what I understand, I could be completely wrong about this. And I actually did no research into this. What is in contracture? I believe the reason why Katie Holmes did not come back for Dark Knight is because she married Tom Cruise and Tom Cruise and the Church of Scientology said, no, you cannot do that movie. That was at least the rumor. Whether or not it's true. Yes, I'll say this. I'll start this off. I like the character of Rachel Dawes. I think Rachel Dawes is an excellent character in this movie for us as the audience to sort of view Bruce through, to see Bruce before and after the training with the League of Assassins slash shadows, depending on what WV executives are feeling that day. But I will say this, Katie Holmes, if not for the brilliant writing and dialogue

45:49of David Eskoyer, whole boy, those Rachel Dawes scenes would be real rough. Well, the interesting thing about going back and revisiting this in a post-Aro world is, she's just, like Laura Lance is just Rachel Dawes. Oh, yeah. On the Aro TV show. They're both lawyers, yeah. They're literally both de-assistant DAs. Like I hadn't really thought about that because Laura was also a character. I'm not super hot on. I don't necessarily understand why we need it an original female character here because Bruce has had 185,000 girlfriends over since 1939. I actually wish we'd had Selena Kyle in some way, shape or form. Oh, you could have put Selena Kyle in this role, I think. It's just a big part of your one, that story that's obviously heavily influenced. My projection or conjecture would be that, and just knowing the type of filmmaker and writer that Nolan is, I would guess Nolan wanted his own character to mold any way he saw fit. Because I think this is also the reason why we did not see Richard Grayson as Robin in The Dark Knight Rises. I don't want to talk about that.

46:51Well, that could fill three hours. But anyways, Nolan is one of these filmmakers that I feel like if you name a character like Harvey Dent or something like that, he feels like he has to acknowledge the past history, the past stories, whereas Rachel Dawes does not exist anywhere in DC Comics so we can do whatever he wants to. Mark, what do you feel about Katie Holmes and Rachel Dawes in this movie? Jason Ashley, I don't want to wait for our lives to be over to talk about how I actually, be careful Mark, I don't want to drown you in Dawson's Creek. I'll just be standing on a canoe crying. I liked her as Rachel Dawes. I mean, maybe it's just my primordial ooze mind that they can't really separate how great the script is versus her performance of it. But I believe there is the love interest. I believe there is somebody who was fighting for justice in a corrupt system. And so I have no problem with her. I also didn't really have a big issue that they replaced her with Maggie Gyllenhaal who's a fantastic actress.

47:51So I was good either way and I don't have any real strong takes on it. But I am happy that she is not Selena Kyle and I'll tell you why. Oh my God. It's because I feel like Christopher Nolan just is one of these filmmakers that, kind of echoing what you said Jason is that he just doesn't want to be beholden to all of the war and he doesn't want to throw in Easter eggs just for funsies. He's not that kind of guy. And I think that the most that you're going to get from him is that playing card that we get at the end of the movie. But obviously that wasn't just a thing for the fans that was setting up a whole other film. So unless the character's purpose is to do that, then he'd just rather not bother with him. Well, by the way, I want to point out one of my favorite comments of this entire livestream. Layton Wagner got a super sticker and then also said, love you guys with a smiley face. Oh, which is very nice. Love you too, buddy. Oh, thank you so much. All right, now the time has come for you to lip sync

48:52for your life. Yes, I know. I can joke for the four RuPaul's Drag Race fans. Oh, I thought we were going for a Dungeons Creek joke and I was going to say stop it, Pacey. Yes, my Canadian, my fellow Canadian. You need to watch it, Joshua Jackson. So Mark, you mentioned earlier that I believe that you said, oh, Layton Wagner also said, just real quick, love your guys shirts. I assume she's talking about Mark. I mean, this is the deepest. This is from my workout earlier today. I have a shirt of Batman and Superman running together like they're the Mario brothers in their costumes. But that is currently in the wash. We actually debated, Jason said, I don't think Mark's going to wear a Batman shirt. I said, Mark probably has a Batman shirt. Well, you have Molly, the super dog behind you, which makes up for everything. I want to talk about my favorite scene in this movie. And I'm going to preposition this with, this is my favorite scene in any comic book movie. 100%.

49:53This is the scene that I like to call, the training is nothing. The will is everything. The moment where Razal Ghul, Henry DeCard says, your parents death was not your fault, it was your father's. And then Bruce goes, ape shit crazy here, which is very interesting. And I love that they actually is filmed on a real glacier in Iceland that actually and I have considered visiting. What do you think about DeCard's training? Is, I would love to hear your thoughts, specifically on this scene, because I think this scene is so powerful. I think it's the best piece of music from this movie. Is Razal Ghul right? Is his philosophy that it is the will of the person, the training means nothing, because there is a lot of philosophy throughout this movie. And I think it's part of the reason why I like this. Asha, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Is Razal Ghul right? Is this a good attitude to have? No, that's so, that's so goddamn rude

50:55to say about his poor dead parents. That's so harsh. It makes for a great scene. Yes. This is an amazing scene and this will lead you to understand why Batman acts like a complete insane person when he gets back to Gotham. Well, that man is called the super dick sometimes, or a bad dick. Well, yeah, super dick Batman actually in comics is like right around this time as well. Pretty close. I disagree with the training is nothing, the will is everything. I do think that your will can carry you a long way. But if you've ever tried to hit someone who was actual martial arts training, they're gonna hit you first. But the will is everything. Doesn't matter. If you can't throw a punch, you can't throw a punch. Oh dang it. There go my plans for tonight. I think I'm also hoping that you're going to bring up your thoughts about the scallops. But what I like best about the scene, honestly, is we get to see that you get to see it. I gotta find that clip. The fight is so good. So I'll preface it. Please, man, bachelor. Jason, I watched this last night and the part where Dude Card catches it with the little ninja scallops because this is what I finally realized

51:55what those things were for. Okay, yes, so this is the best screenshot I could get of it. So Batman, since I think the 1960s redesign, because originally, a Batman showed up, he had purple gloves. They were amazing. Batman had these little scallops on his gloves. And for the longest times, I thought they were just decorational. So when I saw this movie on my Snyder Cut DVD in 2005 with the shaky cam and people speaking French, and he caught the sword and stopped it. I immediately, it was like somebody had shown me the Rosetta Stone. And finally, I understood English because I had no idea that those were functional until this movie. Well, because sometimes the only way that I've ever seen them use in a Batman comic, it's usually to catch yourself as you're about to follow up a rooftop, which is not how scallops should be used. And that's one of the coolest things about this fight scene is other than when Lucius comes in, you get to see a lot of the origin of Batman's design as well.

52:56Yeah. Yeah, I would say that if you are into parkour scallops, they're not going to save you. But Jason didn't know what those were used for. You know who else didn't know? Bruce Wayne. And that's one of the reasons why I love this scene is because you can literally see through Bruce's anger that he's also kind of filing stuff for, oh, if I'm going to become an idea, if I'm going to become more than a man, if I'm going to become this mission statement, then I'm going to need to take care of my body. I'm going to need protection. I'm going to need a lot of shields. I'm going to need all this cool stuff. So in the back of his mind, that's what he's thinking. He knows he's got the wallet for it. And now he just has to survive this training, which, due card in this, I feel like it's the toughest coach that you could possibly have in sports. He is Vinsel and Barneying. He's a more topical reference for basketball, would be Tom Tibido, where it's just tough love all day, just running gassers every time in practice, and he's making someone a champion.

53:57Mark, let me ask you this question. You know, as an internet movie pundit, and we are as well, you know, you're part of the movie trivia, Shmo down, Shmo's no, movie or video show, comments I hear a lot on Twitter, especially over the last five years, are people are like, man, keep your philosophies and your politics out of movies. I just want to watch movies of people, budgie. This movie is so layered with metaphors and philosophies. There's a big of like, don't be afraid. The will is everything, the training. This movie is all about crashing philosophies, basically coming against each other harder than actual villains fight each other. What do you feel about that in this movie? Do those work, are there too many? How do you feel about this? I think it works because it doesn't hit you over the head with the fact that we are getting political, we're getting philosophical, but it works because both sides make sense.

54:58You can actually see how both sides came to their reasoning. When Ducard is talking, or when who we think is Rosalgo was talking, and they're talking about how, oh no, we've been around for a while, history is on their side. It brings up Constantinople, Rome. That wasn't yesterday, that was a long time ago, and so clearly this strategy works. Now, whether it would have worked if they applied it to Gotham, like what they wanted to do, that remains to be seen, Bruce stood in the way of that. But I love that we have this thing as an audience where they're making a lot of sense, but this guy's Batman, so I'm gonna kind of root for him, but it's just not a clear cut. And so it makes us think more. And yes, I love that people still get upset at political references, even though their favorite MCU movie is called Captain America Civil War. Yes. Yes, that's a very out point, I love it. I also think it speaks to the level of intelligence and respect that went into writing the script, because if you are a, and I'm gonna say,

55:58well, educated, and I don't necessarily mean that you have to go get a degree, but if you're well read and you're interested in the world, then you'll come across all these weird things, like, oh, that's what the scalups are actually for, so we can put these in here. Oh, this is maybe a Confucius quote or something from a Zen philosophy, we can put that in there. And all of that compounds to explain why Batman is smarter, better, faster, stronger than everyone. And I love this quote from the Dark Knight wearing hockey pads. Yes. All right, so I wanna talk about, as I search for a screen grab of them and cannot find it. Okay. I wanna talk about Jonathan Crane, the scarecrow, the sort of B villain of this movie. First live action appearance in this movie is played by Sillian Murphy, who was a runner up for the role of Bruce Wayne. Ashley, I know you are steeped in scarecrow and Batman lore. What do you feel about his portrayal? Is he exultant in this movie? And do you like that he is sort of like the minor villain through the next two? I do wanna say that we have, do we have a geekist role, so that's scarecrow?

56:58Uh, ask Google of, I will find out. I thought we did, I can't remember. I don't think we know that I've spoken those words are gonna prove to not be true. Well, everyone, if you wanna request to go to that G.H.O. podcast or email us at geekhistorylessonheadgmail.com. I think not starting with the Joker was so smart. Yes. I'm also of the opinion that he could go back in the... We do not, by the way. Okay. I think that he could go back in the toy box for a little while because a character like this, and then they do it in the second movie with Harvey Dent, also kind of as your B villain, your B plot villain, are so interesting and there is such fertile ground I think Cylian Murphy is a wonderful actor. I think he doesn't get enough credit and doesn't get the roles that he deserves. He's like the sequel king. So it's kind of amazing that he's in the first one of this trilogy. He's so good, he's so creepy, and he really, it's an intelligent choice because it kind of goes along with the philosophical river

58:01that this movie is. And man, his dialect work is out of control here. He is so freaking good and the mask is so good because even without all the bugs, it's a creepy looking mask. So fun fact here. I learned, Christopher Nolan did not want to use the scarecrow mask in this movie and David S. Goyer had to convince him. He was like, you have to do it. The comic book fans are gonna want the mask. And Christopher Nolan was like, oh, I don't know, maybe. And then he did it. I don't know why he sounds like Paul McCartney just go with it. But I'm gonna, that is now canon. Christopher Nolan sounds like Paul McCartney. I hope I can't wait for him to show up on the crisis of this. Mark, what do you think about scarecrow, my friend? I hate to correct you, Jason. That was more of a George Harrison kind of... Oh, isn't a George Harrison? Mark me. Oh, my God. When I was... Oh, yeah. I don't like my taxes. Actually, that's a little wringo yet. So I can actually, in talking about scarecrow, I can give you all just a free standup lesson for all the kids watching is that like, when you're constructing a joke,

59:03ideally you have a premise that is believable, it's grounded in reality. And then the joke is this far fetched kind of reality. And you need something to bridge those two to get the audience to come along with you on this idea that's gonna get sillier and sillier. Now with scarecrow, that's the bridge villain where you feel like it's grounded in reality. The guy's doctor has got a degree. And then he also has this math that makes people do cookie things. And so we're starting to see in this world that while it does feel more grounded in reality, there is going to be a link to these villains to get a little nuttier and a little more comic bookie. But we needed somebody to bridge that gap. And it was very wise on Nolan's part to not open with the character that everybody and their mom and their grandma knows who it is. Scarecrow, be villain is one way to put it. I would say a deeper cut villain. And I think that it worked really good because we're also in this movie, that's the title of it. We're not trying to overshadow the big guy. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he needs to begin in. He needs to begin in.

1:00:03Yes, I, yeah, you're right. He actually is very critical to this movie. And that's something I think this movie does very well that was sort of the folly of the previous Batman series where that, like Batman Forever, for instance, two-faced starts out as the A villain, riddler is the B villain. But by the end of the movie, they flip. And I always remember from that movie, I was like, no, two-faced should be the main villain here. The riddler should not be the main villain. So I like that scarecrow at no point in this movie is really treated as the B villain. He is just as competent. He matters that much to the plot. And I mean, we just mean like the B plot. Oh, sure. I mean, he burns Batman and throws him off a roof, depending on what version of this movie you want. When we watched that, I was like, you do imagine if you were just a citizen of Gotham, it's like Batman's been around for five days, you've never heard of him. And you just see a guy at a bat suit on fire in the street, like that's wild. No, imagine, because there's in the shot where he gets burned. And he goes on the roof and he pulls out his phone, he calls Alfred.

1:01:03You can see people's windows, lights. Imagine that outside your window, you're just hearing this guy at a bat suit. He's like, all right, all right, I didn't know. The voice, the voice is, he's not full. He's not full, where's Dr. Egar in this movie? No. No, actually, yeah, in this movie, his Batman voice is basically it's Christian Bale, just more gravely. It's the dark night where he becomes the parody. Yeah, of himself. All right, so I want to talk about, let's talk about another, this movie is full of amazing casting here. Let's talk about Lucius Fox. Now, I love Lucius Fox in this movie, mainly because he's Morgan Freeman. But also, I like and hate the idea that he's basically Q from the James Bond franchise. He's like, hey, Batman, here's your gadgets, because typically in the comic books, a lot of it is Batman events these things himself through trial and error and things like that. But I understand for a movie, we've got to simplify stuff, we've got to move stuff along.

1:02:03Actually, what do you feel about that Lucius Fox? Morgan Freeman is basically like, hey, here's your buffet of bat toys. Well, Lucius was a character I never ever thought I was going to see in a movie, so that's really cool. You know who created this, fans of our podcast will love this. Do you know who created Lucius Fox? Danny O'Neill. No, the great Len Ween, the guy who created Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Swamp. Then everyone we love. Basically every character, every character in comic books you love, Len Ween made them. Yeah, especially on the Marvel side. Yes. Morgan Freeman is inspired, inspired casting, because for the time who would it have been Morgan Freeman or Denzel, maybe? Maybe Dennis Hayesburg, to be able to pull him away from 24. That's true for the time. I think he's amazing. I love that they just draw him as Morgan Freeman. Now, I don't mind him functioning as Q because it's such an easy way to explain. This is how Batman gets all of his toys. And I love the line where he goes, Mr. Wayne, if you don't tell me what you're doing with us, I don't have to lie about it, but don't take me for an idiot. Like that is so perfect.

1:03:04And in a lot of ways, when Lucius comes on the team and then we get the scene later, where they've somehow got him into the car as one of the commenters pointed out and he wakes up after being gas. It's kind of like Bruce Wayne has two daddies and I'm into that. By the way, before we get too far down, the rabbit hole? The rabbit hole of Lucius Fox. I do want to point out, yeah, Denny O'Neill, the great Batman creator that did just recently pass away at the time of this recording and a couple of days yesterday, I believe. He is known. We should give him mad shutouts because Denny O'Neill is the co-creator of Razaal Ghoul. And Taliya. And Taliya, yeah, the villain of this movie. So we should give a nice tip of the hat that we lost this. One of the greatest Batman writers of all time. So the mark, your thoughts on Morgan Freeman as Lucius Fox in this movie? Absolutely love it. And I love the way that you can explain a way why this character is in the movie in the first place is because again, we see that Wayne family bond where it's an old friend of Thomas Wayne's and so he's just down there in the basement tinkering away with his multi-billion dollar company.

1:04:07Nobody's really paying attention to this genius who helped build the white rail system and got them and it just gives him all the time in the world to dream up this stuff so that Bruce Wayne doesn't have to. Bruce Wayne is busy figuring out what sort of things he can pick out of every culture across the world to incorporate into his new persona. So he doesn't really have time to tinker with which fabric is gonna repel the most bullets or which tumbler is gonna look best for his bat mobile. It just, it makes it so much simpler in a way that is believable and is consistent with the rest of the movie that he is involved in Wayne Enterprises. I do love the scene where they're driving together in the tumbler for the first time and Jason told me this when we were watching it that they would not let Christian Bell drive the tumbler. Yeah, apparently like Christian Bale during the filming this movie wanted to drive the tumbler. What it is. And they only had two of them and they were like, absolutely not. We cannot afford anything.

1:05:07But here is a fun story. The giant chase sequence that happens with the tumbler later in this movie when Batman is smashing cars and the cops are like, it's a tank. Apparently one of the tumblers was crashed into by a drunk driver. So a drunk driver. I'm so sorry. So the tumbler was parked and the guy just like, apparently hit it at like 10 miles per hour like coming around a corner. And apparently when he got out of the car he was like, what is that a tank? And they kind of were like, oh, we wrote a good script. Wow. That's not good. Okay. I gotta check where I was that night. Was I ain't got them city that night? Were you there, Mark? Chicago. So this is actually, it's almost like you can see my notes. Almost. You're your greatest segways. Either way, I want to talk about this, the tumbler. It is very divisive online. So I want to get everybody's opinions about the tumbler on this podcast. Mark, do you like the design of the tumbler?

1:06:07And then also I would love to hear, what is your favorite Batmobile? Do you have a favorite Batmobile? And it doesn't even have to be live action. It could be from the comics or the cartoons or whatever. But tumbler, yay or nay. The tumbler I'm yay for in Nolan's trilogy. Because it seems to be the kind of vehicle that makes the most sense. It's very utilitarian. It's not the prettiest Batmobile. It's probably the ugliest Batmobile we've ever seen. But if you are actually trying to stop crime in your city and you want as much protection and firepower as possible, that's probably what your design is going to look like. And that's what we all fell in love with with Batman Begins is it's like everybody saw that movie and walked out of the theater thinking, you know what, if I had a billion dollars, I could do that too. And you could also have a tumbler. I just don't know how practical the very phallic but very cool 1989 Batmobile is. It was great. And I think my favorite Batmobile is I'm going all the way back to the 60s, man.

1:07:08I'm a classic car guy. And it's just such a cool car. And come on, if you have a red car phone, you sold me. I believe also that's a Lincoln. Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway. It's stock up savings time now through April 2nd. Spring in for store-wide deals and earn four times of points. Look for in-store tags to earn on eligible items from Celsius, Body Armor, Aura Aida, Silk, Capri Sun, Bavarian Meets, and Charmin. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in-store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery, restrictions apply, see website for full terms and conditions. I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan. Hey, how's it going today? It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do. I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty awesome. I think I saw Billboard years recently it said $20 billion, $20 billion is insane number.

1:08:12Yeah, $20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think, somewhere in North, probably closer to $22, $23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on. Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident? Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. It's pound 529 from your cell phone. We are always open or call centers always waiting to take your call 24, 7365. Wow. Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan and America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show. Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you. Wasn't it like a leaking Chrysler or something like a Chrysler? Yeah, and it's on display in LA. Yeah, we're in Southern California. There's a shop. It's currently boarded up, but hopefully they're still in business. I think it's called Baris Custom Auto. And it's on Riverside and Lancashem right in North Hollywood. And they have that classic Batmobile, or at least the model of that exact one that is in the store. So you can actually go look at it.

1:09:13And one time I was driving by, and the poor thing was being towed because they had to do some work on it. And I took a picture of it. And I said, this is the current state of the DCEU. Because he was like, you know, at the bottom before, we didn't know what we were doing. And nothing was really getting critical acclaim. So that was an old joke, but I had to bring it up. If you actually also, if you are in Southern California, I don't know if it's open or not, but the Peterson Automotive Museum also has a replica of the Batman 66 Batmobile. And there they also have the Batman 89 Batmobile. Nice, yeah, Comic-Con. I think a couple years in a row, they would have all of the Batmobile. Yes, so you can just go look at a cross from Hall H. And like, that's where that's a tractor being for me, man. Just staring at that stuff. And you know, they look at me like the crew, it's a Christian bail. Like, kid, there's no way you're getting into one of these. They also have them at the, on the Warner Brothers Studio tour. There's a room that's just the Batmobile. All right, Ashley, Tumblr, yay, or nay.

1:10:14You know, it's a little tough in these modern times where we are in re-ended discussions about demilitarizing the police force. But I think this, I think this is an ugly, ugly vehicle. But, however, in terms of form and function, like Mark says, if you're going to be Batman, I'm just going to let you stare at a little bit more on the live stream. And maybe that'll convince you. But my favorite thing about this is actually from the Dark Knight where the little motorcycle pops out of it. I think that's cool AF. I am totally here, but yeah, I really like that with the fat tires. But my favorite Batmobile is the animated series Batmobile. So I like a slick, impractical Batmobile myself. All right, break my heart. Tell me how much you like it. I love the Tumblr. I love the Tumblr. And I've said this in many places. The Tumblr is my favorite Batmobile. Because it is the only version of the Batmobile. Because Mark, you hit on it perfectly.

1:11:14The Batman 89 Batmobile, while probably the most stylistic. And I would say objectively, probably the most beautiful. Because it looks like a piece of art deco that is on wheels and moving, would never be able to smash into the Joker's Joker Mobile and push it to the side of the road. But this tank, oh my God. And one of the things I love about it is just look at how much like a Hummer it looks like. It literally looks like a Hummer. It has these giant wheels. It would be impossible to flip this car over. It to me is like, it really leans into that Christopher Nolan, what he was going for, the idea that he was like, I'm grounding this in reality, what would the Batmobile actually be? Like if the Batmobile is going to go up the side of a building, what would that vehicle actually look like? And to be honest, I think it would look exactly like this car. Like my God, it's ugly. I mean, yeah, I know. I know, but, you know, so is Batman. No. No. I mean, I don't know how you feel about Christian Ball, but you might think that.

1:12:15I think Christian Ball is a pretty good look at dude. I mean, you know, he's pretty good. Yeah. He's no Val Kilmer. Yes. OK. Val had that chin, man. Val Kilmer in Mark Twain Makeup or out of Mark Twain Makeup. Always in, always. Of course, of course, that is in Mark Twain Makeup and then the batsuit over the Mark Twain. I want Mark Twain Batman. Yes, set out at 10. I'll be there opening night. That's when I'm going back to movie theaters for. We have an actual super chat here from Samir G, who says, I enjoy Batman begins way more than the Dark Knight and the Dark Knight rises, no disrespect to them. It's comfort watching for me. It's such a good franchise starter as well, like Raiders or a new hope. Mark, you mentioned this a little bit earlier, too. And without like, you know, smizing your whole point about this movie, I feel the same way about this movie. That this movie is just every time I've put it on, I've never gotten bored with it. I always just like, oh, man, that's so good. That's so good. Do you feel the same way? Soul food, man.

1:13:15It's comfort food, but it's not comfort fast food. You know, you run to McDonald's and you eat it. It feels good in the moment. And then you really regret the decision. But this, it's quality food and it just reminds you of everything that you love about the movies. And it's not over the top in flashy in the way that people think about when they think about a big blockbuster, a big comic book franchise. So the way that it's able to subvert what our expectations are and yet keep us coming back to this particular movie to start this franchise, I just think it's a magnificent achievement. And I don't think that we get certainly a DCU or an MCU without this movie coming from Christopher Nolan at the time when it did. This movie, I don't think it's an understatement or an overstatement to say that Christopher Nolan helps save what the modern comic book film looks like. You know, I think Mark, you are exactly correct because Iron Man 1 is 2008. And Iron Man 1 comes up the exact same year as the sequel to this movie, The Dark Knight,

1:14:17which also many people consider to be a game changer. And it is, and this movie is a game changer as well. It's funny because, and we might get in this a little bit later, but I feel when you talk about Batman Begins, there is, when you talk about comic movies, there is a pre-Batman Begins and there is a post-Batman Begins. And it's so funny because when it's funny, we've seen studios do this a couple of times, actually within the last five years. I believe like Venom is a version of this and the amazing Spider-Man, the amazing Spider-Man 2, or versions of this, when they release those movies, I can remember a common criticism, and one of my criticisms of those movies were like, oh, has this director, a writer, not see Batman Begins, do they not realize that we have changed how we tell superhero movies now? Like they're acting like that movie doesn't exist. And I think that there is very much a dividing line with this movie. All right, we cannot leave this movie to that talking about two supporting characters, and then we kind of like talk about the wrap up

1:15:18of this movie, Michael Cain's Alfred. Yes. I don't even need to set this up. Just beauty-licious. That's what I'm gonna say. This is the reason that I know who Michael Cain is. Oh, really? I didn't know Michael Cain was before I saw these movies. I'm very young. And it's interesting that this at a lot of ways I think a lot of people are in the same boat as me where this was where they were first made aware of him. I love Alfred and Bruce's relationship because it echoes Bruce's later comic book relationships to the various robins. And the moment where Alfred, and Alfred being an Englishman really drives this home for me, Alfred is talking about the Wayne legacy and the Wayne name and what it means and why you have to take care of it. And then Bruce saying, well, it's not your name, it's not your family, why do you care? That seems breaks my heart every time and you said this. To me, the first year I met you, if you make Alfred cry, you make all the rest of us cry.

1:16:20And I think this movie really echoes that. Alfred is Batman's real dad. He's perfect. Mark, how do you feel about what I think is a stellar performance from Michael Cain in this movie? And I will admit, when I first heard Michael Cain was cast as Alfred in 2004. You went on Twitter and said, no way. No, Twitter didn't exist at that time. I'm certain I Facebooked about it. I thought he would overwhelm the role because I knew who Michael Cain was. Michael Cain was a great actor, but Michael Cain generally does Michael Cain. And I am happy to admit that 2004 Jason was a stupid idiot and that I was completely wrong about that. But Mark, how do you feel about Michael Cain as Alfred? Yeah, that'll be my online Twitter campaign is cancel Jason from 2004. Oh, my Facebook is private. It's a good luck, everybody. I love Michael Cain. I mean, I've known about Michael Cain since I was a little, little kid and saw Jaws the Revenge and how great he was in that. No, it can only go up from there. And with Michael Cain in this movie, the father connection is so strong in this.

1:17:22And I love that this Alfred, we learn later in the series that this Alfred is a badass in his own right and has a lot of experiences doing these kinds of things that now Bruce is going out to do. But how quickly Alfred buys in to what Bruce's mission is going to be, it's one of my favorites. If not my favorite scene in the movie is when the private jet is on the runway and Bruce's walk on his birthday and him and Alfred have that conversation about what's going to happen once I get back to Gotham and Alfred gets it. He gets what this guy is about. He gets why he disappeared for so long. He understands that this little boy that I helped raise is not some spoiled brat anymore. He is actually going to take his father's mantle in a way to try to repair the city in his own version and Alfred sees that he's going to become a symbol and not just a man. And so you can see it. And this is how great Michael Cain and the writing is is that you can see Alfred realizing

1:18:23what's about to happen. And so Alfred kind of says to himself, I need to take care of this man. I need to take care of Bruce the person so that he can go on to become this symbol. Alfred's also super funny in this. And that's what you see, he's like, well, I'll let you take the rules out. You bring it back with a full jacket. You bring it back with a full jacket, yes, yes. I don't know how much of that is in the script versus how much of that was improv, but at certain points in a Batman story, you need moments of levity because it can get really heavy and he provides that for this whole franchise. Well, it is canon in the comic books that Alfred is just full of sass for Batman. Even in the anime series, I'll draw you a bath master away and he's very funny. Yes, and he draws a picture of an actual bath and hands it to Bruce. And he's like, what? But no, like one of my favorite moments is towards the end of this movie where the log has fallen on Bruce and Alfred comes back in the house and he goes, what's the point of doing all this bloody push-ups? You can't lift a bloody log, you know? Which is very true. I think it should be, it looks like he's gotta kill it. So there are a couple funny stories

1:19:24that Michael Cain said that he based, this is not his actual dialect in this movie. And he said that he based Alfred's dialect on his British army instructor when he was 18 because he felt that he was like, when I read the script, he's like, I really got the sense that Alfred was in the military, which Alfred is in the military in the comic books and they further established that with the story of the tendering. So I think that's a nice little touch that Michael Cain based them off this army instructor. Also, Christian Bale's first scene that he ever filmed with this movie. And I'll see if I can find it on here as we're talking. It's the scene where after he's been drugged, he wakes up in bed with his two daddy standing over him, making sure that he's okay. Yes. And so, Hey, you found it. Yes, I did find it. So is this scene, it was this scene right here where, and apparently Christian Bale said that this was his first scene ever with Michael Cain, his first scene ever of Morton Freeman. And Christian Bale was like, he said he was very nervous.

1:20:25And Christian Bale said that he fell asleep. And he said that he was like, I don't know how long I was asleep, but he was like, I remember, he's like my first, my biggest memory about him begins is my first day on set being poked in the ribs by Michael Cain and hearing, I think this bloody full fetish sleep. Yeah. I had no idea that is so fun. And now that's another reason to go back and watch Batman against for everybody watching out there all the fans. It's like, check that out just to watch that scene through that lens. That's great. Yeah, yeah. It's really, it's really, really great that you're like, oh my, and like I said, like Christian Bale has said that he's like, for the next month, he was like, I felt super embarrassed that my first scene with this great actor, I fell asleep in. All right. So another great actor we got to talk about, this movie is just a murderous role of the cast, Gary Oldman as Commissioner Gordon. Commissioner Gordon. Oh, yeah. She does a weird dial on the Chicago open the bridge. Again, another casting,

1:21:25because after that point, he'd mainly played villains. And I was like, there's no way that this guy is going to work as Commissioner Gordon. And he knocks it out of the friggin park. And his scenes with him and Batman, sort of being partners, just every instant of it in this movie proves to you while you're like, oh, this is why Commissioner Gordon is one of the greatest characters in the DC universe. And it gets his scene with Young Bruce gets echoed again in the Dark Knight Rises. Yes. In one of the best moments of that movie, it's hard to believe that a character like this, that his son can grow up to be murdered by, you know, at the West Row Sea. Well, yes. Mark, what do you feel about Gary Oldman, especially like thinking about the Fritz from a 2005 perspective? This is Bram Stroker's Dracula being Commissioner Gordon. So what I thought about this when I saw it is I just got little tiny shades, not an overarching sentiment, but a little bit of him playing Lee Harvey Oswald and JFK. And I'll tell you why. It's because you see this guy who clearly has realized

1:22:27that suddenly, very, you know, unconscious that this was happening the whole time, that he is overwhelmed by the situation that he is now in. For Lee Harvey Oswald, obviously, he's part of this huge conspiracy. But with Commissioner Gordon, he's thinking everybody else on this police force is corrupt and is on the take. And so he has that internal struggle with, I don't know what to do. You see the sadness in his eyes where he's like, look, I can't rat these people out because there's no one really to rat him out too. And I don't want to be known as that guy. But I also am not going to be on the take. I'm not going to be a dirty cop. And so I'm just stuck here as Detective Jim Gordon until this really creepy shadow guy pops up in my office. And a very amazing scene. I love the dialogue on that thing where he goes, you're just one man. He goes, no, now we're two in this very way. It's such a great line of dialogue. And then every cop show for the next decade copied the stapler gag. Oh, of using the stapler as a guy. Yeah, like I've seen it so many times, specifically on television since then. All right, so the one part of this movie

1:23:30where we get Super Goofy is the ending of this movie and the microwave admit her. Although it is based on real technology, it is kind of goofy that Razal Ghul's plan is to just blow up all the water pipes in Gotham. And that's one of those moments that where you kind of have to be like, come in. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Mark, I would love to hear your opinion. How do you feel rewatching this? Why do you feel about the climax of this movie? It's a microwave admit her. All the people on the narrows are seeing spooky bat creatures and Batman lets Razal Ghul die. How do you feel about this climax of Batman begins? I feel like it's a good, because let's face it. With the first time we saw it, we were all still recovering from the shock that Liam Neeson turned out to be Razal Ghul. And so we're just hanging on for dear life at that point. And if I was a prominent member in the League of Shadows, I don't know that poisoning the water supplies, the worst idea. I mean, if you really want to city to fall, the water's a good place to start. And so I could go with it enough because at its heart, it's darker, it's different,

1:24:32it's subversive, but it is a comic book film. And so we have to have something to ramp up to because as cool of a menacing presence as scarecrow is and as great of a crime boss as Tom Wilkinson is, we do need something for Batman to truly show this city in the audience that, hey, I am here and I'm here to take care of things that nobody else can fathom. Actually, how do you feel about the confrontation, Razal Ghul, all the craziness on the narrows? What do you feel about the climax of this movie? I have very little issues with the final act of superhero movies being like convenient and quick to wrap everything, to like escalate the violence and then wrap everything up. With DC movies in particular, people like to criticize them for this, Wonder Woman gets a lot of criticism for this, whereas a lot of people like to hand wave away the fact that the MCU just the exact same thing. So I like the fact that they bother to pick a smart, if maybe not wholly sound approach to this because it fits with the way that we've introduced this character and how we know that Ross operates.

1:25:34I love the symbolism of the train and what the train means throughout and seeing how beautiful it is when Bruce is on it as a child versus when Rachel takes it and it's crappy later and then they have their final confrontation on it. And as we know, all glory to Razal Ghul, he never dies. Oh, glory to Krasal Ghul. It's not like you're joining the league right now. He's going for him to have to go watch the future. Jason, if you need a place to crash tonight, you can come over to my wife. I need a place of safety right now. You can go cuddle with her. I will bring you a blue lotus fallow. You know, so for me, I was like, well, he's not dead, he'll be back. Just because familiarity with the character, but I think the actual confrontation itself is very cool, very, very powerful. I agree. And I mean, the only part of it, like I have any issue with is the part where Batman's like, well, I don't have to save you, but I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you. I think that's Batman though. I think Batman, I don't think Batman would shoot you, but I think he dropped you off of a three-story building because he knows your legs will break. Well, and we saw that. We see that tonight for Eric Roberts.

1:26:36No, no, no, I don't know. I don't know Eric Roberts. You're a very nice man, I guess. I don't know. I believe you, Eric Roberts. I don't think Batman's losing any sleep over letting Rosalgo die because it's like, dude, I'm still a guy here. I'm a guy under this arm, right? I can't do anything with that. And what a slippery slope it is from the cool comic book fantastical ending to just the ridiculous point of convenience, which is unfortunately what, in my opinion, the dark night rises devolved into, where we're dropping all around and then we happen to plop down right underneath where we need to be. And it just, that all felt way too convenient. This did not. Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway. It's stock up savings time. Now through April 2nd, spring in for store-wide deals and earn four times of points. Look for in-store tags to earn on eligible items from Lindor, Chipsahoy, Gatorade, Post, Ziploc, and Zoa. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event-long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy, drive up and go, pick up or delivery.

1:27:38Restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions. I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan. Hey, how's it going today? It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do. I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty awesome. I think I saw Bill Board of yours recently that said 20 billion one. 20 billion is an insane number. Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think, somewhere in North probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on. Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident? Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's pound 529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 24-7-365. Wow, Dan Morgan. From Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law from Thanks for coming by the show.

1:28:38Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you. The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma are built to keep going. Blending rugged muscle with precision engineering all supported by Toyota's time-tested legacy of dependability. Step into a Tundra and feel the unyielding capability with the available I Force Max engine. Tundra puts out impressive power, torque, and towing performance and the roomy high-tech cabin keeps you connected on the go. Or take a look at Tacoma made for drivers who push past the path. Agile, tough and relentless with available features like crawl control, portable JBL speaker, a power lift gate, so gear goes in fast and the adventure keeps moving. The Tacoma and Tundra are engineered to endure season after season, mile after mile. So drive one home today, visit toyota.com or stop by your local Toyota dealer to find out more Toyota. Let's go places. Yes. Now, I want to talk about a couple of things towards the end of this movie. One, I love the in-scene with Rachel and Bruce and Alfred in the mansion where it's like,

1:29:39Bruce has finally come around to that great line of dialogue where he's like, oh, we're going to rebuild it brick by brick. And this was the first time in live action that this theory about Batman that had been set in the comic books for about 20 years that I believe was created by the great great Denio Neal. The idea that Bruce is the mass and Batman is the real person that once Bruce's parents were killed, Bruce Wayne ceased to exist and only Batman or what would become Batman existed from that point. First time in live action that have been said and I think that's a genius and brilliant and then Alfred gets to be cheeky about rebuilding. But we have to talk about the nice little setup to the sequel that they did not know was going to happen. But they had planted the Joker card. I think it's genius. It's straight out of the comic book, Frank Miller's Batman year one, but you can find interviews way back in the past from about 2006, 2007 with interviews with David Goyer

1:30:42talking about was the Joker card intentional and he will always tell you that the Dark Knight trilogy and here's, which of course wasn't called that at the time. He always saw it as the Joker was movie two and movie three was the trial of the Joker. Oh, interesting. A.K. the creation of two-faced. That was always from Batman begins. That was their loose idea of the trilogy. Mark, the Joker card. What do you feel about that being the end of the idea? And also we talked about this movie being full of philosophy. This throws us another one where it brings up exactly what we see in a second movie, Escalation. Escalation and the fact that Batman, look, if any of us, after me guessing on your great show, I'll probably pat myself on the back for a job well done and relax. But when you're Batman, it doesn't matter what you just stop, what crime you just foiled, who you just sent to Arkham, you can never rest. There's always somebody else coming. There's always another train that is rolling in the Gotham that is to be feared.

1:31:42And with the Joker card, I mean, you talk about how Nolan set us up for this new era of comic book movies. That's not technically a post-credits scene, but it is something that teases us to get us talking as relieving the theater. Not just about what a great movie was, but hey, what's coming next? And horror movies had been doing that forever. Comic book movies, it was still relatively new for us to be teased in that fashion that was that cool and was that on the nose in the sense that we know who the villain that they're talking about is, but it was also mysterious enough for us to be like, what the hell does this Joker look like? You make a really interesting point about horror movies doing that forever and ever, because how many times have we seen Michael Myers eyes open? It's the last shot of the movie. Or Jason's mask is somewhere where it's not supposed to be. I would have never pulled that. That's great. Expanded my mind. And it's very easy for us, again, after like 11 years of the MCU to just be like, oh yeah, in credits scene, they're just such the norm. But they were not the norm. In fact, they didn't want to promote a sequel because they never knew if they were ever going to get it.

1:32:43Okay, so I want to do the Super Chat real quick and then we're going to end this podcast, the same way we end all our podcasts by sort of overlapping up the movie. So to everybody out there right now, we are after we talk about the wrap up the movie, we will take your questions and there's always Super Chat's jump to the top of the line. So if you definitely want to make sure that your question is answered on this podcast, then go for a Super Chat, you know, or don't. Whatever you want to do. Bring it on. I told my friends, we're here to talk about it. But we have a Super Chat here from Zach Jensen, but go ahead and fill the comments right now with questions and we will get to them in a minute. Zach Jensen says, love the movie, but this line always made me think that he did save him referring to Batman. Justice is balanced. He burned my house and left me for dead, consider us even. Well, that is very true. Bruce does do the same thing. And Zach, you are smarter about writing than I am. He does. He does drop bras off with a healer though. Ross doesn't drop. I think he's talking about the brain. Because like he, he's leaving, I think Ross on the train the exact same way

1:33:44that that Ross left him in a burning house. But I remember when you last time be like, he left you with a doctor. What are you so mad about? OK, so Mark, just like we ended all our movie retrospectives in Batman McGinns, 2005's Batman McGinns, who's the best actor? Who? It's hard for me not to say it bail just because he's the one that you're following through this odyssey. But Michael Cain is tough to go away from. I'm not going to say Katie Holmes, because I'll never be invited back. You can say whoever you want. I think I'm going to go Christian bail just to kind of, because we've seen so many Bruce Wayne's by that point and so many different incarnations of it, we got to see yet another side of Bruce Wayne. And we get to see just how passionate he was about his family and just how much that hurt him and just the depths that he sunk to. So getting to see the rise, then the fall, and then the redemption of Bruce Wayne, I think makes Christian Bale's performance

1:34:45the toughest one to pull off. But man, there is enough gravy to pass around Liam Neeson and Tom Wilkinson and Morgan Freeman, Katie Holmes, yes, Michael Cain, Gary Oldman, everybody else in this movie. But I'll take, I'll take bail with my number one pick. I'd love to see any of our listeners take some of the statements that Mark just said and made it make a fun piece of fan art called Batman Begraveys. I would love to see that. I will happily send you a prize if you do this. So Ashley, who do you think is the best actor in this movie? It is really tough not to just go Christian Bale, because he's drinking a lot of literal and figurative, heavy lifting throughout this. My favorite moment in the whole movie is when he just falls into that push up and breaks his wrist. But I'm going to go with Michael Cain because he has the most subtlety that is asked of him. He's really playing a lot of complicated things just beneath the surface. And he's a performance that the older I get and the more I watch this movie,

1:35:45I appreciate more and more each time. So Jason, tell us why Katie Holmes is your choice. Well, you see, when Katie Holmes says, it's not what you say, it's what you do. You have a great line. Really, that David S. Goyer is carrying her through this movie with his typing. He is just saving her. No, I actually agree with you, Ashley. I think that Michael Cain really is the heart of this movie. And I agree with you. Christian Bale is an excellent, excellent. To be honest with you, most of the acting in this movie, I would say 98.9% of the acting in this movie is unbeatable goal. But Michael Cain, man, just shows that this is the reason why he is a respected veteran actor because he just knows the right way to say certain words that just punch you in the heart and almost bringing it to you as every single time. Mark, this movie was released in 2005.

1:36:47We are watching this in 2020, 15 years later, does the movie hold up? And are there any parts of it that for you really be like, woo, that's 2005? I can't think of anything on top of my head that doesn't hold up in this movie. I mean, the matriculation of Bruce becoming Batman, learning how to incorporate these different philosophies into what his new mantra is going to be, the light rail. I mean, a lot of it still feels a little ahead of its time in anything, getting to play with all this technology and a lot of that stuff still holds up. I'm sure there's probably an older flip phone that I missed upon re-watching it. There's a movie of something in there. Yeah, sure. But other than that, I think that this movie does a great job of feeling timeless, of feeling like it's not just a time capsule movie, which I think Tim Burns, Batman, even aimed to be that when it came out, 1989, I think it wanted to be a nostalgic kind of throwback to a simpler time, if you will. But this Batman, firmly interesting 2005, though it was,

1:37:48it never felt like it was 2005 when it came out that year. And it's in 2020. You know, I agree with that. I think this movie does hold up. And I think you are correct. The one part of this movie I feel where it does give its age, and this is where all movies are going to show the age, is the CGI. There are a couple of shots of the train where you're like, that's pretty cartoon. When the Tumblr jumps into the narrows, they're like, whoo, that is 2005 CGI. But it's good CG for the time. Exactly. And the other thing about this is that I will say this, is that there are a lot of model shots in this movie. One of the shots, the outside shot of Raza Ghoul's sort of temple in Nepal or China, where that's supposed to be, it looks real because it's a model shot. It's not a CGI shot, but it looks, even in 2020, looks legit real. So for me, I think that's the only part of this movie where it shows its age is sort of the CGI. I think it 100% holds up. I agree to you. There are many other comic book movies

1:38:50that I would say feel like they were made in 2005, whereas Batman begins to feel like it was made last year. Ashley, you feel it holds up as well? I do. The only thing besides the CG, which is just sort of inevitable with the way the industry goes, is like, there are some casting choices where you're like, this was definitely like when this person was on an upswinger, and this person was really, and that happens at all times. You could say that about a movie made in 1939. Like Christian Bale was super hot right then. That's why he got this movie, Katie Holmes, that whole sort of sight, guys. This is reflective of who was big in Hollywood at the time. And if this movie was being made now, it would have been two other actors, that's okay. All right, we'll say though, it did. It was coming off the tail end of that gap J. Crew. Let's wear our khaki's loose kind of there. So there's more loose fitting clothes on the riches of the rich than you would see modern day. Modern day, it's a little more tailored, a little more James Bondy, if you will. Yeah, that's right. Haircut is like mid 2000s as heck as well. Oh yeah, haircut.

1:39:50Haircut layers, yeah. Great call. All right, so Mark, watching this movie this week, Batman Begins, what do you think the message of this movie is? What do you think this movie is trying to say? And then overall, your final thoughts on Batman Begins. Here we go. This movie is trying to say that as powerful as men or women can be as individuals or even as collectives, that the most powerful force on earth to this day, 2005, 2020, doesn't matter when, is an idea. If you can be an idea, an idea that is connected and convinced the justice is the right way to go and how to best administer that justice. That if you can give somebody their come up and it's with a taste of vengeance, a little bit of revenge in your heart, but also allowing people to be forgiven for their mistakes, to serve their punishment, and then maybe be rehabilitated. Batman Begins gives us all of that, but above all else, it says that the symbol will live on forever.

1:40:53We're all made a flesh and bone, and we're all sadly going to perish one day. But the symbol, what we become is much more than just this mortal coil, it can be an idea that can stand the test of time. Oh, that's great. Thank you. Good night. Well, Ashley, let's see you follow that up. I think this movie is saying, please give us a sequel. I think that's a message here. I think the mad if I don't know if I can say it better than what Mark said. And that is, in a lot of ways, an elevated version of the thesis of Batman in that great argument that is it Bruce or is it Batman? That's the real person underneath it all. But I also think on a meta standpoint, and I did make the joke with a sequel that it's saying that we can take these icons from a medium that is considered silly at the time, and we can tell a real powerful emotional story with them, and that is something that has transcended. And that's why we have, like, as we've been saying, that's why we have all the TV shows and all the movies that we have now.

1:41:54So Jason, follow up on that. Well, it's funny. Mark exactly nailed that a lot of the basis of this movie is the idea, the idea argument. In fact, and our current atmosphere, that's the reason why a couple days ago, I shared the words from this movie, the idea that you cannot stop an ideal. You can stop a man, but you cannot stop an ideal because I felt that was very current, and that could be used. I thought I was hoping that would give some people some hope in terms of our current political situations and stuff like that, and all the demonstrations out there. I actually think for me, I think this movie is summed up in the statement that Thomas says to Bruce, when he's dying, don't be afraid. Because this entire movie is a reaction to Bruce being so afraid and making his fear his life. Batman is his fear brought to life. And Batman is the idea that he is so afraid

1:42:56that if he loses anybody else, even anybody in Gotham City, that it will be just as bad as it was when his parents died. And he's afraid of that. And you can see that because the entire movie Alfred is like, I got you, bud, I got you. And Batman's like, no, you don't, I'm afraid, you know? So for me, that's what a lot of this movie is fear. And then that's the great thing about the trilogy as well, is each of the movies are sort of based around a sort of emotional basis. Like I really think this one is fear. For me, the second one is very much chaos. Like can you control chaos? And then the third movie I think is all based on, well, if you can fix your back, a broken back, you can fix anything. Or actually, to me honestly, I think the third one is more, some days you just can't get rid of a bomb. Yeah. The third one is basically, hey, kids, drink your milk because it's going to make your bones strong. Yeah. Some, some, some, some, you know,

1:43:57Asian martial artists will punch you in the back and it's all okay. Totally. All right. So everybody out there watching this live stream live and if you're not listening to this live stream live, you're listening to this podcast later in the future. Hello future people. We're feel free. We're going to go through the comments right now and we're going to answer some of these questions. Again, super chats will come to the front of the thing. Can you guys kill a minute for me while I use the rest area so I can hang out and answer more questions? Oh, man. Yeah, yeah, totally. Sorry. I have fear that I'm going to pee my pants and I'm going to go over here. Wait, Mark, Mark is taking a quick, it's about a quick break. We have our Carlito classical. He says, anybody else get chills when the Joker says, you and I are destined to do this forever. Knowing sadly, we were never going to see the Joker again. He's talking about the Dark Knight. I agree. I don't know if I would say I get chills. When the Dark Knight came out, I read an article in the Globe of Mail, which is a big newspaper out of Toronto in Canada and it had a picture of when Batman

1:44:59pulls the Joker over the interrogation table and it was the first time that I'd ever heard the theory that the Joker and Batman are in love and that it's more of a romantic relationship than anything else. And then since then, I've got to read a bunch of comics that have supported that. So that's the thing that I always take away from that Joker character. It's like his relationship with Batman. Yes, and I had to find that comment to hide it away. Here's a great question. Sonic Super Sonic Hero 10. Hi, Adam. Coralates this film to Shakespeare. I think we were talking about Force Awakens. I can't remember what we decided for Force Awakens, which was like what Shakespeare plays Force Awakens was. Well, this is so easy. Is this Hamlet? It's Hamlet, but I actually think. Hamlet is the face value, right? Because it's for a revenge story based around your parents. And the prince coming back. But Hamlet gets his comeuppance in a way that Batman can't because Batman's going on to be our hero. So I would actually say there's a little more like Henry the fourth into Henry the fifth. Because in Henry the fourth, he's Prince Hal

1:46:01and he doesn't have any cares. And in Henry the fifth, he figures out how to be the leader that England needs. And he leads people through the Battle of Aging Core and gains the respect of his country. And Batman, over the course of this, would be Bruce Lawrence, how to become Batman. And then he leads Gotham through a period of strike to becoming their hero. Mark, we know you're a huge, huge fan of Shakespeare. And I've been told through the Schmodown that you have been pushing for a Shakespeare Schmodown, you versus Ashley. What's Shakespeare in play do you feel is the most like Batman begins? It's a quote, Robert Williamson, Shakespeare, the moon, like a testicle hangs low in the sky. I feel like this is great Shakespearean as far as a film goes because Shakespeare is just littered with daddy issues. And whether you want to go Lion King or you want to go Star Wars or this, it's not just about missing the father or the absence of a parent. It's also living up to the legacy

1:47:02that they created for themselves. And how do you follow that? How do you follow in those footsteps? And eventually, if you try hard enough, maybe you'll find your own footing and your own path to go down. So it is a very Shakespearean kind of thing, but I mean, that's why Shakespeare or maybe Ben Johnson, I don't know. Whoever wrote those things was so ahead of their time and so pervasive in the culture even today is because that still rings true for all of us. Is it we're trying to figure out how do we follow in our parents' footsteps? Here's another question from Zach Jensen. What is your thought on when Batman uses the device to summon bats for his escape? Mark, what do you feel about this? It's he's conquered his fear, folks. And it's not necessarily that he conquered his fear. This movie isn't about the absence of fear. It's about being brave and being able to control your fear. So in the same way that Scarecrow's trying to manipulate his victims, Batman is trying to manipulate his fear into a weapon to instill fear in others and not just himself. So if he is afraid of bats, imagine what he's going to do to everybody else.

1:48:02So I love that bats are aiding in his escape. It's a great scene. I love this because this is Christopher Nolan and David S. Goyer tipping the hat to Frank Miller's Batman Year One, where there is a scene where Batman is trapped in a basement and he activates a sonic device and all the bats come in and rescue him. So I was like, this is very, Christopher Nolan is very good about that. Actually in all three movies, in the dark night there's a scene between Harvey Dent and Christopher Gordon. Commissioner Gordon. James Gordon. Yeah, James Gordon and Batman on the rooftop. Do you have a key guess you're listening on? I know what I taught it. Yes, and that is literally a scene ripped out of Batman the long Halloween. So I love Christopher Nolan like polls from, and a lot of the dark night rises as it pulled from Batman No Man's Land, which is also an awesome super cool story as well. This is a great question that we, no one brought up. I brought this up. I brought that he grew up to be killed by Westerosi. Oh, that's correct. Adam Grothers, is it funny to see young, young Joffrey now?

1:49:02Yes, it is. It is very weird. It's also wild to me that they cast a English child instead of like there's no American child actors that are worthy of playing James Gordon Jr. Do you know why? Because they shot a bunch of English. They shot everything of the narrows. They shot at Pinewood Studios outside of London. That is the reason why I'm freezing this movie. Also, I'm sorry, don't know his name off the top of my head. He is a wonderful actor, even in this movie, because kid, kid actors are tough to come by. And he doesn't have a lot to do in this movie, but he's great, so. No, it just sound American, which is the same thing that Gary Oldman was doing, the same thing that Christian Bale was doing. So it was a running theme throughout Batman begins. Is that Brits are just better than us? Jack Gleason is the actor who plays Joffrey Baratheon and young scared kid who gets apparently a $5 million piece of great art technology from Batman. Yeah. Give Lee Britsley. Yeah, here you go. Here's a great question. And I want to talk about this. Elite Carter said, what are your thoughts on the Batman suits and their advancements through this trilogy,

1:50:03the Christopher Nolan trilogy? Mark, how do you feel about? It's basically the same suit in Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, but this is a much different suit from the one he gets in Dark Knight Rises. Yeah, it's a very stripped down version. And it's like any great athlete, you look at Michael Jordan, who would just keep adding new elements to his game every summer. And that's exactly what Batman was doing, is that you go out, you fight crime, some baddy comes in knocking and you take care of him, you turn him into the police or the asylum or whatever you do. And then you realize, oh, okay, I'm not perfect. Like Batman was never so cocky that he couldn't improve, that he couldn't refine. And you even see that in this movie where they're ordering parts and they realize, oh, okay, we got to get the really good stuff because this is going to shatter. And so he just constantly tweaking what is in his repertoire or his bat belt. Actually, I don't know, actually don't know your thoughts in this. What do you feel about the suits of the Dark Knight trilogy? I think this first one really looks like the Michael Keaton suit. And it's because of the headpiece. And even though I don't think it is a strong aesthetically,

1:51:05I appreciate in the next movie when he wants to turn his head and they just give him the bike helmet. And I do think if you were trying to be Batman, that's a better choice instead of having to wing yourself around. But I mean, I think the suit looks good through. I think every bat suit from this point on so far, knock on wood looks really good. And I think they learned from some of the steep curves of the past as well. I just want to say we were talking about English actors when Bruce finally comes back to Wayne Enterprises, the secretary who he's hitting on when they're playing golf, that's an actress named Christine Adams. Christine Adams is currently playing Lynn Stewart in the Black Lightning television show. So she has a little DC history there. How do you feel about the bat suit, Jason? The Batman begins bat suit as my favorite bat suit. Hands down. No, I fully admit that I think the Ben Affleck one, like it walked out of the comic books is amazing. Got fat bat on it. But I think that the dark night and the dark night rises suits are over designed. I understand that like, I could see what Christopher Nolan was going for.

1:52:08He was like, I'm going full function and I want to see it. And I like that this looks like the Michael Keaton suits because it's like the Michael Keaton suits, but it's like with our technology because if you notice, the cow is more fitted. It's not because the Michael Keaton cow was like just straight rectangles of Batman ears. Like he didn't look like a human. He looked like a walking marshmallow that was cut with a fork. This is curved to his head. Also the ears are curved. And it fits around his eyes better than the, and then also his chest symbol has my favorite Batman chest symbol of all time. It's the Jim Lee comic book symbol that they were using curly in the comic books. Unlike the squared off Batman sort of Christopher Nolan design of one. And I love that curly in his live stream, Mark Ellis's TV has come to life and was playing different parts of the trailer. I love it. That's confused, that's confused Bruce.

1:53:08That's that's why I'm saying anybody that dresses like a bad has serious issues. It's like grown up off the scent. That scene is really fun. I like that scene a little bit. All right, so I think that is all we can say about Batman begins. I think we just put this thing to bed. Ashley, if they go over to GeekHistoryLesson.com slash recommended reading, do you know what they'll find over there? If they want to learn more about Batman beginning. Yes, if you go over to GeekHistoryLesson.com slash recommended reading, you'll find everything that we've recommended in this episode, which means you'll find the blue rig version of Batman begins. Probably Batman your one. Of the trilogy, Batman your one. And if I can find a copy of the screenplay that you can check out if you want to learn more about this or anything that is associated with this movie, pick them up, take some money out of Jeff Bezos's pocket and put it in ours so that we can continue to build our ugly, ugly Batmobile. That is correct. And don't forget guys that you can download and listen to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher. It basically, if there is a website out there

1:54:10that will play a podcast, I guarantee you the GeekHistoryLesson that is on it. In fact, even the weird podcast sites, I guarantee you were on the weird podcast sites. I want to thank our very special guest here. Ari DuCard. Mr. Henry DuCard, also known as Mr. Mark Ellis. Can you please let our fans know and listeners know where they can find you? If you have any, do you have any online shows coming up? Anything interesting that we can check out? Peep out, watch. Hopefully I'm back to live, stand up soon and we'll see what the regulations and restrictions are. But in the meantime, speaking of Jeff Bezos and his wonderful company, Amazon, you can catch my special dog, Stepfather. That's the dog on the Stepfather on Amazon Prime right now. And GeekHistoryLesson, yes, you can get it on your conventional podcast places, but it's the only podcast also available on the Dark Web. Hey, it makes sense. Given our subject matter today. That is correct. I have been told that it is on the Dark Web. In fact, the Dark Web has emailed me and threatened me to take it off of there. And I said, no, I said, what are you gonna do?

1:55:11Still my grandmother's bank account and they did. Okay, you can follow another show. Yeah, yeah, that was an interesting episode of GeekHistoryLesson, that one. All right, so you can follow Miss Ashley Robinson on Twitter and Instagram at where, Ashley? Ashley V Robinson, the V is very important. Yes, and you can follow me on Twitter and Instagram at jawin. That's J-A-W-I-N. We also have a Patreon that I can also support the podcast patreon.com slash jawin. And I gotta say, we plan Batman Begins at the end of the Gladiator episode. So, I mean, Mark, if you're in on this, I would love this every couple of months. We picked some movie that was made 2015, five years ago. And just do it and bring you on and talk about it. I don't know. Do you know what happened? Hard next time. Like at least the way it or had to rewatch. We got, we're doing Arietti. You want to come do some studio jivley with us?

1:56:12Arietti. Oh, boy. I think I might be going to the dentist that week. I don't know that I can catch up with that. Well, I'll tell you what, we'll find something. OK, I will throw this out there. I won't throw this out there as a fan campaign because I know Ashley is not for this. But oh, no. 10 years ago, a little movie came out with a very subtle title, very subtle. It was called Kickass. I don't want it to kick. Ashley does not want to do it. I don't know what Mark's feelings are in Kickass. Hey, man, I will call you big daddy and I'll call Ashley Hickerel all day long. Let's do this. All right, so maybe. GHL, hashtag GHL, Kickass, yes. Hashtag Kickass. Or no, you can also do no. OK, but I think it's only fair. I think it's only fair, though, if the fans go for Kickass and go with Hashtag Kickass, yes. I think me and Mark have to also talk about a movie then maybe we're not so hot on, but Ashley is very hot.

1:57:13I think that's his only fair if we end up. So if we do Kickass and everybody goes for Kickass, then the next movie is 100%. We cannot veto it. OK. All right, I think that's only fair. Mark, are you down for this? Yeah, but look at that. Devious smile that Ashley has. She already knows what movie she's going to pick and it's going to torture us and she's not going to reveal her answer. About baby, that three hour long musical epic. Well, the only caveat I will make is you obviously cannot make it area Eddie, because Mark is already. That's just why he's I just that's what I think we have a couple of other ones. Yes, we already we already know whatever date we pick for area Eddie, Mark has a dentist appointment. That's fine. Maybe we get this. Maybe we get this yet. Yeah, maybe Molly will come and join us for area. And he will see. All right. All right, everybody out there. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Geek History Lesson. I am Jason, sometimes in front of a blue background. I am Ashley Victoria Robinson. Mark Ellis, thank you again for joining us. Hey, miss y'all, I appreciate you guys can't wait to hang out in person. And if you're in front of a blue wall, I'm in front

1:58:13of a sleeping puppy. And that's just the way I like it. Awesome. All right. And we definitely saw how Batman be gone. So Ashley, could you please dismiss and close out this podcast? Class is now dismissed. Bye-bye, everybody. Oh, yeah. It's tax season. And by now, we're all a bit tired of numbers. But here's an important one you need to hear. $16 billion. That's how much money and refunds the IRS flanked for possible identity fraud. But it's not all grim news. Lifelock monitors millions of data points per second and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com slash iHeart. Terms apply. Here's the truth. You could literally be adored by everyone and then come home and still get completely ignored by your own cat. It's classic cat behavior. But new Shiba Premium Pure A is a lickable treat that changes all that. Their protein rich made with bone broth and have the smooth creamy texture cats go crazy for,

1:59:16especially when it's hand fed. Yeah, it's more than a treat. It's a fast pass to favorite human status. So feed your cat Shiba and go from totally ignored to truly adored in just 12 days, guaranteed, or your money back. Learn more at Shiba.com.