Babes in the Wood Murders /// Chapter 2

0:00I want to hire a private investigator. Some folks in the best. ABC Tuesdays, TV's hottest PI is back. Are you sure you're ready to take on a serial killer? It's like a dozen more likely explanations other than serial killer. All right, maybe none it does. In Florida, crime has no offseason. I just heard you were shot at today with a rocket launcher. Well missed. RJ Decker Tuesdays, 10-9th Central on ABC. Next day on Hulu. This year's girls trip to tell you where I was the best. We went up ourselves with my Sapphire preferred card. And with five times points on Chase Travel plus three times points on vacation homes with top brands, we got this incredible cabin. It was a mansion. And with three times the points on dining, we ordered a Wagyu steak dinner. And that facetio gelato was too good. So where should we go next year? I've got ideas. Chase Sapphire preferred. The card that's preferred for a reason. Cards issued by J.K. Morgan Chase Bank, and a member of FDIC, Subdictor Credit Approval, terms apply.

1:23Welcome to True Crime Garage. Where you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick. And with me, as always, as a man who stayed too long inside your crooked frame, here is the captain. Now my doctor says I have scoliosis. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. Today we are sipping on King Julius by Treehouse Brewing Company. King Julius is arguably the most consistently graded beer of all time. I graded it at a 4.6 bottle caps. My friends, their average scores, 4.6 bottle caps, and everyone on untapped, average grade 4.6 bottle caps. And King Julius took home three untapped community awards

2:27two last year in one in 2024. If you love hops, citrus, cream sickle, and orange Julius, you will love King Julius. ABV 8.2% garage grade four and three quarter bottle caps out of five. And we have reached the end of our beer shout out. So for a shout out and to put a little love in the old garage fridge, go to truecrimegarage.com and help us out. We would like to thank everyone who is donated to the beer fund in the past. We want to thank everybody who has subscribed to off the record on Apple subscription and through Patreon. And we want to thank all of you, beautiful, wonderful listeners for tuning in each and every week, joining us in the garage to all of you around the world, we say thank you. Yeah, BWW are you in? Beer run for everything, truecrime, checkout truecrimegarage.com and colonel, that's enough of the B, isn't it? Oh, right, everybody, gather around, grab a chair,

3:27grab a beer, let's talk some truecrime. Well, I promised you, Captain, that we would discuss some of the missing items. And there were a lot of missing items from this crime scene. As the investigation into the murder of Margaret Frame developed, detectives discovered that several personal items have been taken or were missing from Margaret. Reports stated that four rings have been removed from her hands, including her wedding ring and eternity ring and two silver thin bands.

4:29Other accounts gave more specific descriptions of the missing jewelry and belongings later released to the public by the detectives. The missing items included a pair of gold ear rings, each with a single pearl, a small gold wedding ring engraved with a fine, irregular line pattern, a plain gold signet ring with the letter M engraved on an oval shaped top, a plain gold semi-circle ring set with three small diamonds, a wristwatch, and a silver colored case with a dark brown military strap. Reports also referred to this missing bag. The later descriptions clarified this missing item as a silver colored case with a dark brown military strap. October 28, 1978, police released an image

5:32of this bag or this case, similar to the one that Margaret had been carrying on the night that she was murdered, hoping that someone might recognize it or remember seeing it. And police were also searching for the murder weapon, believed to be a thick, bladed knife. Now, regarding the knife and these items, police were back at the murder scene with renewed efforts, looking for additional clues, but also continuing their search for the knife, the missing jewelry, the wristwatch, the bag or case that belonged to Margaret, detectives set up a murder hotline, as they were calling it, and promise that all information would be treated with the strictest of confidence. One detective explained that they were trying to build a full background to the case, adding that any detail, however small, might help. So let's circle back to this search that's going on.

6:33This was interesting here, Captain, because police were hoping that metal detector enthusiast might help uncover the murder weapon. So they get 20 individuals armed with metal detectors that are involved in this grid search, and there still are pictures of this that exist to this day where they had created these lines and columns, if you will. And so each person, basically about the space, the size of, picture yourself cutting your grass, pushing the mower. So they created these lines, these grids, rope them off, and said, you each take a line, a column, and walk it, with moving the metal detector back and forth, back and forth, back and forth as you go. So they could accurately, and probably with a lot of confidence, say, look, that huge patch, that stretch of land over there, we've searched it, and we're 99.9% sure that all the items

7:37we were looking for are not there. What did you think about the way they talked to these individuals when they said, hey, nerds, get out your tools and help us find this knife. Yeah, I'm sure that encouraged them to donate their time to the police. Look, this was one of those cases where, and I don't know why it happens with some cases and not all, but this certainly was one of those cases where the whole community was deeply affected by this case, and a lot of people got involved because they wanted to help the police locate the person responsible for this and get them off the street and behind bars. And I think that everyone was sharing the opinion that the police were sharing, well, even before they were sharing the opinion openly with the public, that whoever did this will probably strike again. This isn't just such a simple murder.

8:37There's nothing telling the detectives that this was an isolated incident, that it will remain so, that this was a personal kill or attack. They're looking at this and going, there was probably, like you said yesterday, there's some pervert in the park waiting, looking for a victim. And unfortunately that night he found one in Margaret and then went to great lengths to conceal the crime to the point of burying the body and burying the clothes. Yeah, again, somebody that's probably not stalking her, but maybe because this is a common route for her, maybe they've seen her in the past. And so again, I think the premeditation is happening and then those actions are gonna be carried out when they have the opportunity. You were also saying that these rings were taken, but that could not be any motivation for the crime.

9:40The crime here is sexual, but it could be simply, well, I'm gonna take these as souvenirs or whatever. Trophies or trophies? Hope to get some money for them at some point. I mean, Or I'm just gonna take them. So then maybe the cops go, oh, the motivation here was robbery. Yeah, I don't, I see what you're saying. And I don't know how much thought we need to put it. It's, motive is certainly a powerful thing. And especially if you can understand it, it's going to help you understand the perpetrator, but it's not, I wouldn't allow motive to fully steer my investigation. No, no, I'm not. And not what I'm saying though is we have a sick individual. We don't think that this is personal in the sense of, well, the crime is committed, they're not gonna go after anybody. This is somebody that was looking for opportunity. So time is ticking because they're gonna look for another opportunity.

10:41Yeah, I also think that we're probably, whether it's his first time or not, I think we're dealing with unfortunately, someone that's pretty good at covering their tracks. They don't mind putting in the effort, bearing the clothes in one location in the body and another location is interesting to me. It's unique. And it shows more effort needed than what was required. Look, they did find her, they did find the clothing, but unfortunately the perpetrator had some success. There's a good deal of delay between recognizing that she's missing and finding her remains. 10 days didn't help the police. It could have only have helped the killer. Now regarding this metal detector search, look, this was something that the police were genuinely excited about. You know, they said, they said most of these areas that we're out here searching now with metal detectors, these are all areas that we've searched before. However, we searched these areas

11:42without the benefit of metal detectors at the time. And so now we're hoping this new method might succeed. And in fact, they said if the search locates the knife, it would only provide crucial evidence in the case, obviously, but also might demonstrate a technique that police could then use again in the future with other murder investigations. Now during the search, there was some success, but it's difficult to determine if, in fact, these items are directly tied to the murder. So using the metal detectors captain, they did locate, they found a shovel and they found a fork. And these two items were found, one report says that they are found near the murder scene, which is difficult because we have police telling us, this is where the attack happened. This is where the clothing was buried. This is where the body was located. None of those, while all could, each one could be possible at no time

12:43where they ever saying that this is the actual spot where the murder took place. Now they did appeal to the public for help tracing these items. These items, the fork reportedly had the name Dreadnought on it. The shovel was described as a builder's type shovel. Both were found near the shallow grave and from their condition and placement, police stated that they believed the shovel specifically had not been in the area where it was found for long. The officers were going door to door using the old knock-and-talk method. They asked residents whether they recognized the shovel or the fork, whether either item belonged to anybody or whether they had seen these tools before. And obviously, like any other investigation, every object, every sighting, every memory from that,

13:43evening is going to matter. The detectives investigating Margaret's murder also studied files relating to another attack. We mentioned this briefly in early in episode one of this case. They were reviewing the information about the attack that happened in a, what they described is a lonely Brighton Park. So this is a different park. And this occurred on, it looks like August 23rd, 1978. Don't quote me on that because I'm looking, I'm reading this date and I'm questioning this date. But it was around the time of the murder, okay? My notes, both notes I have on this indicate that it was prior to Margaret going missing. But this was the attack on the 16 year old boy who had been forced to commit a sex act with a man brandishing a knife in Wild Park, Brighton. Pay attention to that in a wild park because that's a name that will come up again

14:46in our presentation of the cases that we're going to cover in this series. Wild Park is only a short distance from Stammer Park. So that is important as well. Similar attack, similar weapon and in close proximity. Detectives from Sussex CID said they were keeping an open mind about whether that attack or any other sexual attacks in the Brighton area and Margaret's murder might be connected. However, we do have a description and I would argue that we also have two very, very different victims here. But when you're openly describing your murder as a maniac, I know that they use that term very, very loosely. But if you're using it in its proper context and maniac truly has no victim type, they're just a frenzied attacker and killer.

15:46They're a maniac. They said the suspect in the Wild Park attack was described as a man aged 20 to 25 between five foot seven inches and five foot eight inches tall with short dark curly hair. He possibly had an Asian appearance and was wearing a dark bomber jacket and dark jeans. Now, this is where we get into some of the information that the police had uncovered when canvassing the area and talking to folks that frequent Stammer Park. This is something you had asked about. So at the same time while they say, hey, we're reviewing the file on that attack, this is when they start talking to the public and saying, look, we're trying to trace the owner of an older type voxhall, Viva, I believe is how you say it. This is a car. So seen in Stammer Park on October 12, 1978. So that's the day that we know Margaret encountered her killer.

16:47This voxhall Viva, if I'm saying that correctly, while that's a name that's not familiar to me as an American, it's as soon as I look this up, it's like, oh, yeah, that's the, those British cars that I see on TV a hundred times in this lifetime. They describe the vehicle as a box style voxhall with square wings and colored medium or mid blue, depending on who's given the description. The color was, the car was seen in the park around the same time, two men walking their dogs heard a female screen. Well, that's a little telling. So what that tells me based off of this very short statement here, read between the lines, your two men are your ear witness, your ear witnesses to this female screen that they heard and either they're compounding this ear witness statement with an eye witness statement about this car or what's probably more likely is these same two men

17:51saw this car roughly around the same time. Either this could mean on their way into the park or on their way out of the park, but either shortly before, shortly after hearing the female screen. And if it doesn't line up, you know, the after would be the most important part of that in my mind. Police also wanted to identify an agitated man seen running across Lowe's road around 7 pm on October 12, 1978, close to the likely time of Margaret's attack. Remember, they said nine minutes is what they think that it took for her to get to the location where they believe she was attacked. And they have her friends at work and her normal routine telling them that she left there on foot about 6.45. They said that this man reportedly tried to get into a car that had stopped at a bus stop outside of Sussex University. They said the man ran across Lowe's road and attempted to open the locked rear side door

18:54of the vehicle. The driver shouted at him asking where he wanted to go. The man said, I want to go to the Vogue cinema, which is so strange because I feel like we just reported on the Vogue cinema in Indiana last week with our interstate strangler case, not a terribly uncommon name, but just unique that we're uncovering that strain and back-to-back episodes of cases that have absolutely nothing to do with each other. In fact, are in different countries. So police openly said, look, we're anxious to establish the identity of this man, even if only to eliminate him as a suspect. They described him as 40 to 50 years old of average height thin build with a gaunt face. They said he needed a shave and had brown hair going gray brushed forward. This is the rare episode where we get to use English terms and turn of phrases and...

19:59Well, this guy's a real wanker. Yeah, I love the, you see that from time to time in these descriptions where the suspect needed a shave. Well, how do you know what look he's going after, sir? Well, you also wonder when they said that hair was combed forward and it's going, you know, brown hair going gray or whatever. And you go, was he combing it forward because he's going bald or is it just, like you said, the look he's going for? The woman he attacked in the park tried to rip his hair out. So these sightings became part of the wider effort to understand what happened in the park that evening. Now, by December 1978, the murder squad, as they were calling them in the papers, murder squad detectives were still trying to trace people who might have been connected to Margaret Frames movements or to the area around Stammer Park. They learned that Margaret had been given, this is strange, man. And I wanted to find more, more, more information on this

21:00because I think this could potentially be a good lead. If it is a good lead, then it turns the whole theory on its side of that she didn't know her killer, okay? This doesn't come out until December. Remember she's killed in October, 10 days till the body's found. Police are saying we've learned in the course of our investigation. This is when you know that they've done good work. That they've really hit the pavement hard on this. They're talking to everyone. Now, that can also add to confusion. So let's say that maybe this isn't 100%, but it's some detailed information here that I find to be very intriguing. They say we've learned in the course of our investigation that Margaret had been given a lift to work at Falmer High School on at least two occasions. So typically she walked to and from. And they're saying we know that somebody gave her a ride on at least two occasions, one time in May,

22:03and one time in June. Police are saying, so you know what happened here, Captain. They uncovered this probably early in their investigation maybe in November. This is the kind of information that you hold and you work it, work it, work it, work it, you shake those trees, baby. And when nothing comes out, when nothing falls out, you now have to bring this to the public to hope to find out what's going on here. So they in December is when they're telling the public, we want to know who gave her these rides. Okay, so they know she got rides, but they don't know by who? Correct. So what my guess is she told somebody that somebody gave her a ride or somebody saw her get dropped off at work. They're saying on two occasions, at least, their words are very important here. And on at least two occasions, she got a lift to her work at former high school.

23:04Once was in May, once was in June, we want to know who gave her those rides. Then they go further and they say the vehicle is described as a light colored land rover or Jeep. It had a spare, here's where we get some cool English terms. It had a spare wheel on the bonnet and a canvas cover at the back. So I'm guessing bonnets, the rooftop detectives were also trying to trace two men associated with a van that had been parked on the green opposite the hiker's rest pub close to the woods at Coldeen Lane in Brighton. So this is right near where the attack took place, right? Kind of one of the entrances, if you will, to the park. The men were reportedly there between 6.45 pm and 8.10 pm on October 12, 1978, the night that Margaret Frame went missing. They were seeing walking into the woods on the edge of Staminer Park with a dog. So these could just be some dog walkers.

24:05We know that this was a popular place to walk dogs. We've already already cited at least some ear witnesses that said they were there walking their dog. At the same time, sorry, that same evening, a dark colored car, possibly an old Ford escort, was seen parked on the grass verge on the Staminer Park side of Lowe's Road facing toward Falmer, just south of the entrance to Falmer High School. Police said a woman was seen emerging from the woods, a moment later a man also came out. The man went into the car or went to the car, seemed to be examining one of the headlights, then gets into the vehicle and drove off toward Falmer. He then turned left onto the main entrance to Staminer Park. The woman, however, whoever's reporting this to police, said, well, I saw the man get in the car and drive away. I don't know if the woman got into the car as well.

25:06I didn't see that happen. So, but what they're saying is this incident, police said this incident took place at approximately 6.45 pm on October 12th, the nighting question. The man was described as being in his late 30s, about five feet six inches to five feet seven inches tall, with a medium build. He was wearing a dark suit. The woman was described as being in her late 20s, about five feet four inches tall, slim, and dressed in dark clothes. Detective said they were anxious to trace all the people and vehicles that they had described to the public. They had made numerous inquiries, but had not been able to identify or contact the individuals concerned. I want to hire a private investigator, some folks in the best. ABC Tuesday's TV's hottest PI is back.

26:08Are you sure you're ready to take on a serial killer? It's like a dozen more likely explanations other than serial killer. All right, maybe none of it does. The main Florida crime has no offseason. I just heard you were shot at today with a rocket launcher. Well missed. RJ Decker Tuesday's 10th, 9th Central on ABC next day on Hulu. It's time to get the most out of your money with shine. Shine offers the most rewarding, fee-free banking, all with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees, and no minimum balance fees. You get 5% cash back on Shine Card in a category of your choice, like gas or groceries, all while building credit through everyday spending. Plus, you can grow your money faster with a savings rate that's nine times the national average. And if you're ever in a pinch, spot me. Let's you overdraft up to $200 fee-free. Join the millions who are already banking fee-free

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31:18powered to the people. Thanks for joining us here in the garage. Cheers to you, Carl. Cheers to you, Captain and cheers to all the people in the back. Or should I call you King Julius? What was it last week? No, the week before we did a refill, garage refill, because you know sometimes that glass gets empty. You know, I fill that baby up. I do the refill. So a couple of listeners confused, thought we were off our rockers, guess what, you're right. Off them rockers and we burned them damn things a long time ago. But people questioned, why are you guys talking about Thanksgiving? Well, it was a re-release of an old episode that we're hoping to renew some, get some renewed public interest with. And today, Halloween comes early, baby, because we're gonna be talking about Halloween in this episode here. So while Brighton is still shaken by Margaret Frames murder,

32:21and the investigation is going on, trying to find her killer, another case brought the eerie story of Ann DeBeau back into the newspapers. And remember, the woman once associated with the haunting and wooden dean, the woman who had become known in reports as the haunted wife and then the ghost wife. By late October 1978, her husband, Roger DeBeau, a 35-year-old builder, had appeared in Korten, Brighton. He stood accused of murdering his wife. Annie DeBeau had been found stabbed to death in the kitchen of the family home on Ashhurst Road in Brighton. So this was called in on October 22nd, 1978. This while Margaret was still missing in just hours before her body was found. And I might wanna correct myself there. This actually might be hours, just a couple hours after her body was found buried in the park.

33:23So Ann was described in reports as an attractive blonde woman. The brutality of her death was intensified in the public imagination by the strange story that had followed the family before she was killed. The story of the haunted house, the sulfur-like smell that was choking the children and attacking the baby. And the move, remember they up and moved, change homes just simply for peace of mind, get away from this evil entity that was haunting that home. Roger DeBeau stood quietly in the dock as the murder charge was read aloud. Both of his wrists were heavily bandaged. His defense solicitor, this is John Hooper, made no application for bail. The court chairman ordered that DeBeau be remanded in custody. The chairman said that the remand was for DeBeau's own safety and legal aid was granted to Roger DeBeau. The supernatural rumors that had once surrounded the family

34:25were now overshadowed by something entirely human and devastating. Roger DeBeau had been charged with stabbing Ann to death. As the case developed, more details emerged about Ann and Roger DeBeau's marriage. Roger DeBeau was 36 years old and was 28 years old. They have been married for six years and had two children together. Roger claimed that in his statement that he had been happily married for those six years, but that about two weeks before Ann's death, things had begun to go wrong. Saying shortly before Ann was killed, she had left him. Later, they made contact again and it was agreed that Ann would return to the home on the condition that Roger would sleep elsewhere. So he continued coming to the house for meals and to maintain contact with the children. Now on that Sunday evening in question, Ann had dinner with Roger and the children.

35:25Afterward, Ann and Roger went out to a local public house. Roger later said he believed that he drank about four points they returned home shortly before 11 p.m. The babysitter made coffee before leaving then Ann and Roger sat in the lounge drinking coffee and talking about their marriage. Roger asked her, is there any chance? Ann said no. According to the account later given in court, that answer caused him to completely lose his temper. Then one of their children came downstairs needing a bottle. Roger said he gave the child a bottle of milk sent the child back to bed and then noticed a knife was on the draining board. So both of him and his wife are standing in this kitchen and it's described as a small kitchen. And he says he's angry. He looks down. The knife is sitting there on the draining board in his own words. Roger said he just sort of picked it up and lunged at Ann. He said he may have hit her once or twice with it.

36:28Now medical evidence showed something far worse and had been stabbed no fewer than 11 times. The wounds had been inflicted with considerable force. Afterward, Roger ran into the hall and telephoned his brother saying I think I may have killed Ann. He said, I like you don't know. Well, I think he completely lost. I stopped her 11 times, but who knows? Again, his own words in court, he says I hit her once or twice maybe three times with it. I ran into the hall, I called my brother. I said I think I might have killed Ann. I looked down and I still have the knife in my hand and he goes that's when I cut my wrist. And so when police found him, both of his wrists were heavily bandaged and the police took him to the hospital for treatment. So mind you, think about the police. Think about this whole scenario. It's all in Brighton, all near this general area. You've been looking for this missing woman for 10 days. You find her, you uncover her at 9.30 p.m.

37:29You're telling the husband knocking on his door, telling Peter Framed, we finally found your wife she was dead in the park. Now you know that Margaret Framed has been stabbed to death in the back. And then within about an hour and a half to two and a half hours, you're getting a call from a man who was in his home nearby and you find his wife stabbed to death in the kitchen. She's dead on the floor. His wrist are bandaged. He called it into police. Yeah, he called it into police. Now we're fast forwarding to his trial here. He pled not guilty to murdering Ann DeBeau at their Ashhurst Road home. But reports, as we said, also described how he had confessed to the killing more than once. Remember Ann had once moved the whole family, had moved to new house to escape what she believed was an evil presence.

38:30And she died not because of a ghost that attempted to choke or smother the occupants of that home, but because of human violence inside her own home. The cases of Ann DeBeau and Margaret Framed were different in almost every way. Ann's story began in the realm of the uncanny, a haunted council house, a sulfur-like smell, a family fleeing for peace of mind and a woman remembered in the press as the haunted wife. Her death came inside the family home on Ashhurst Road after marital breakdown, a late-night drink, and a final conversation in which she told her husband there was no chance of their marriage continuing. Margaret Framed's story was rooted in daily routine. She worked as a part-time cleaner. She walked home. She took a shortcut through a park, her friends had warned her not to use that route after dark, but the path was familiar and convenient. The dangerous part of her journey

39:32may have lasted only nine minutes. Yet both stories unfolded in Brighton in 1978 against a wider background of fear, violence, and public anxiety. Margaret's murder became a warning about lonely routes, dark parks and the vulnerability of women walking home alone. It left fairness to her though, right? A lot of times when people say, hey, that park's not safe. If it's your park, it's the park that you take your dog. It's the park that you use to cut corners when you're walking from place to place. And fairness to her though, like what one person thinks as being a dangerous area, another person can disview it as, that's my park. And so I don't view it as being unsafe. Yes, and she's not the blame for walking through the park. If you didn't have like they say a maniac out there, then you know, there's a reason why we build parks

40:33so we can enjoy them. But her murder left that thought and it certainly didn't help the public anxiety. It didn't help the wider background of fear that I'm describing here. It left the police searching fields, woods, tracks through the fog, looking for clothing, jewelry, a weapon, a missing bag or case, and any clue that might identify the person responsible, it left Peter frame to face grief and suspicion and the unbearable duty of telling his young son that his mother was dead. It left the press with the phrase, shortcut to murder. And it left behind the image of Margaret Frames' final walk an ordinary journey home through a dark park that became a crime scene, a mystery and a warning. And a Bose death left another kind of image, a woman who at once believed an evil presence haunted her family home only to be killed later in the kitchen of the house to which she had moved for peace.

41:34Together with the stories, they capture a dark chapter in Brighton's history, a time when the supernatural still made headlines, but human violence proved far more terrifying. Roger DeBose Trial for killing his wife was in the early part of 1979. At trial, the rough history came out. Roger's first marriage had ended in infidelity. He had been left to care for three children. Then he met Anne at a local pub. She was the captain of the dark team. After Anne got divorced, the two of them married and had two daughters of their own. And he claimed that Anne liked the good life, that she often went out alone, sometimes returning at three or four in the morning and saying that she had been out with girlfriends. By his account, he said the marriage had faltered roughly two weeks before the killing. On the night of the stabbing, he said he was crying and very emotionally upset. He wasn't in control. On January 26, 1979, the jury returned a verdict

42:37of not guilty of murder, but guilty of manslaughter, accepting provocation. The judge called it a very, very serious killing, but reflected the jury's mercy, acknowledging, quote, extreme emotional stress. In sentence, Roger hurved a bow to a minimum of four years. Meanwhile, Margaret's case pressed on. Detectives methodically studied connections across assaults. They visited known sex offenders nationwide. They'll pervert round up. And even consulted detectives from the Yorkshire Ripper squad. And they said, quote, we have ruled out any connection either with that killer or any other known killer. Now, was there any reports that the haunting, because sometimes people can be haunted out of property and then they move and they're still weird things happening? The, so the haunting portion was reported early in 77

43:39and she and is killed the same night that Margaret Frames' body is discovered in the park nearby, which is October of 1978. So there's a good deal of time. Now, there doesn't seem to be any mention of her talking about the new house being haunted or that the specter followed them. Remember, she thought that it might, according to what she told the papers, when they were fleeing their home, when interviewed for that after they had made the move, she initially said that, you know, we've been here, only been here a few days and we've not had any trouble. But I mean, it sounds like there were some other chaos in their life as well. Well, and that's what I wondered is if there was tension with her and her husband was possibly the husband responsible for these things that she thought was a haunting. Yeah, and so with this here, you know, they get this confession,

44:40it's an easy, that one's easy to solve. In fact, the police had solved that one, basically when they responded to the call, husband freaked out, stabbed the wife, attempted to take his own life and then called it into the police. Now, back to Margaret Frame, interesting, they're saying, we've talked to everybody, we've studied all kinds of possible connections, we've visited known sex offenders nationwide, we've even consulted the detectives from the Yorkshire Ripper Squad, we have ruled out any connection to that killer or any other killer, a police source stated, they also stated openly, and this is, again, this is early 79, so they've been at it for about four or five months now. Yeah. Saying, look, domestic motives, the cause of most murders were dismissed. Quote, we are satisfied this was an indiscriminate killing. Mrs. Frame was just in the wrong place at the wrong time end quote. The lead detective here, Captain,

45:40is detective Sergeant Jerry Phillips. So this man, by the time he's working the Frame murder, he's got 25 years on the force and he said that he had found himself consumed with this murder and with this investigation. He did say, look, that murder tip line, the hotline that we set up, we've received over 1200 calls by February of 79. And Phillips is saying, I'm probably the only one that's read every single one and I've read every single one and reread every single one. He said it's been reported that he's working late, refusing to leave, walking at night through the park to try to get ideas and he would, he had kept a bedside notebook dedicated to the investigation. And he said he would lay in bed and walk the path in his mind and walk the field where the killer had buried the clothes

46:43and then the route up to the hill and the uncovered earth that hid her body. And he said, he would imagine the man himself, a face and a voice among neighbors and workmates, a person who could chat about ordinary things while carrying the weight of an atrocious secret. The detective sergeant reminded the public about the night in question, saying Margaret's final journey, the walk from former school to the likely attack site only nine minutes, nine minutes that sealed her fate. And he appealed for witnesses, inciting from the night of October 12th, the two dog walkers reported hearing a woman scream and seeing an old box style mid blue, voxhall car in the park around that time, another sighting involved that agitated unshaven man, age between 40 and 50, that's right.

47:45Harvard. Well, remember that guy, you have more information on that guy because then you have, what's interesting about that guy is not that he's absolutely the killer, but he's interesting for a couple of reasons because the way that this information is delivered, the first time around, when we first hear about the man in the need of a shave, it almost sounds like you're getting two independent witness statements here who saw the same guy. One seeing the guy flee and then the other of the driver who was in the car who says, well, I, he tried to get in my car and I yelled at him, where do you, where do you need to go or where are you trying to go? And he said, I'm going to the, what did we say, Vogue theater or Vogue cinema? So that one's interesting because there's a lot of these sightings and we went through a lot of them. Happy to go through them again, if you like, but with some of these,

48:46I wonder how much of the information they were able to corroborate with somebody else. And it sounds like this one is one of those where you have two independent sightings or a minimum of two. And the interesting thing about this interview here with the lead detective is it's really just him discussing all of the open questions that remain about the investigation. Those people that were cited, the different people that were moving in and around the park at that time, that they were seeking. Yeah, but I think that's smart because sometimes law enforcement, when they, when they're talking about these cases, they want to come from the standpoint of, we know all or we have so much information that we're holding some back. And I think sometimes when they don't know by posing all the questions that you have in your head out to the public, it might spark something. Yeah. And he took the time to go through

49:49and describe all the missing items again for people reading it because you can't sit there in your interview months later and assume that, hey, anybody reading this interview, they already know they're all, they're fully up to speed on this case, on this investigation. This might be completely new to them reading that article. Right. So he talked about the missing gold earrings with these, the single pearls, the wedding ring, the ring that had the engraved with the letter M on it for Margaret, the wristwatch, the, I kept calling it a bag, it looks to me like a kind of a tote bag, I get why they're calling it a case, that's a better description, I guess, that was missing. One thing in particular that he noted was, remember the man that was seen, that was inspecting the headlight, and he gives a little more information here. He says, the man who prodded at a headlight of the vehicle with a stick,

50:51then gets in the vehicle and drove off, turning left into the main stammer park entrance. And reminding the public that there was also a woman spotted, but he says in this telling of it, he said, the witness we have did not see whether the woman got into the car with the man or not. So then he openly wondered, he says, well, could that woman have been Margaret? Right. And he says, look, I don't know that it's Margaret, I don't, I don't think it was Margaret, but I'm just trying to figure out why neither of these people have ever come forward, despite appeals across print, radio, and television. And he says, where was the thick bladed knife? We had all these large-scale searches that failed to find it. Yeah, but they killed her, could have took that with them. Could have taken it with them. This is that part where we were talking before we hit record just a second ago. And I was saying how the reporter was hounding the detective about the knife and kept asking questions.

51:52Not so much why they didn't find it, but like, well, what do you think happened to it? And like every answer the detective, the detective simply says, we don't know. And guess what? Law enforcement would love to have that knife. Yeah, he's like, I wish I hadn't answered for you, but the reporter just keeps poking and prodding at him of like, what about this? What about that with all kinds of pushback? And finally, the detective says, like at a frustration, he's like, for all I know, a child or a teenager may have found it before we could get to it. Remember, it took 10 days to find her body. And he says, maybe somebody, some rando picked it up and took it home. And then the reporter's like, well, if that happened, then why wouldn't he bring it back? And he goes, well, maybe the kids, too afraid now, thinks that they would be in trouble with the police. I don't know, man. Like if we knew we would be a step closer to finding the killer. Yeah, I also love when they ask questions. Get off my back, man. As if law enforcement doesn't want this solved,

52:54right? Like they're just sitting around going, hey, let's just keep this one open. It'll give us something to talk about. But did anybody do a profile on this? Because there seems to be some kind of level of sophistication. Yeah, there definitely is. I agree with that. There's some. And like you said, it's very fascinating because a lot of times when we find a victim, we go, okay, well, we don't believe they were killed here. Or we believe they were killed here. And in this situation, we go, well, we found some clothes over here. And then we found the body over here. But oh, guess what? We found this other scene that is maybe where she was attacked. So now we have essentially three mini crime scenes in this large park. So what you have here is you certainly are seeing signs of an organized killer. I mean, he brought the knife with him to the park. He was able to hide or conceal himself long enough

53:55to attack her, someone who was used to walking through the park alone and had success, unfortunately, doing that. We should point out something. You were hitting on something earlier that I don't know that everyone will understand the simple power of what you were saying or possible impact that it could have on this investigation. We're talking about somebody who's used to walking through this park alone. But no, what did Peter frames say about the job? He actually said, remember, he's like, I didn't love the idea of her taking the job, but I understood why. He goes, it kind of complicated things around the house. He probably, it sounds like he got used to her being the stay at home mom. But now that the boys in school full time, she's probably bored at home. But his and his statement was he said that she took the job in May, May of the same year that she was killed. Well, I've never been to this park.

54:56I've never lived in this part of the world. But where I live, it remains lighter, longer in the day in May, June, July, August, and then it starts getting a little darker a little early in September. We're in October when she goes missing. Yeah. So while there's somebody who's used to walking home alone in that park night after night, not every night, she was a part-time worker, but she hasn't had a lot of experience. I would believe walking home alone in the dark in that park at night. Yeah, I think people have to understand that in England, for whatever reason in the summer, you're going, wow, is nighttime ever going to come? And then once you start getting into October, November, December, you're like, do we even have a daytime? Because around four o'clock, the night starts closing in. Yeah, same with Ohio, June, July,

55:59I mean, it's still light out at nine o'clock at night. And by December, it's pitch black by five p.m. So has there been any updates or anything? Well, let's stay with 1979 before we go too far ahead here. Because what we do get, Captain, we do get some courtroom activity here, Captain, because they do things quite a bit differently with these investigations in England and how we do them here. So if I've gotten anything completely wrong along the way, folks, bear with me. I'm simply doing my best. I'm on four in soil with this one. They do these inquest and they really kind of put these inquests off until they have had an opportunity to collect as much information as possible. This is something that we should probably consider incorporating into how we do things here, because I'm not saying there's never going to be a perfect system or a perfect investigation,

57:00but they're, from my understanding, what the purpose of the inquest is to agree upon and decide how the person died and why they were killed. And I'm probably not putting that in the exact proper words here, but what I like about this is how many cases have we reviewed where it was left up to one person, a coroner, a medical examiner, or maybe one agency to decide, okay, well, we showed up and this person's dead and this is what we think happened. It was a suicide. It was an accidental death. And then you have people shouting from the mountaintops, days, weeks, months later, no foul play. There's foul play here. It's something happened. This person was murdered and they never reversed that decision. And we have seen and unfortunately I've turned people away who contact us here at the garage and say, can you look into this case? This person was murdered. However, it was ruled an accident, an overdose, or a suicide. And I say, look, we will take on some of those cases,

58:03but we will take on a very, very limited number. Why? Because unfortunately, there's so many unsolved cases out there. We feel like we can do some good in telling these stories and presenting these cases to people. However, in cases where they've ruled a suicide or accidental death until that is overturned, which is very, very difficult to do, there is not going to be a homicide investigation. Because as far as that agency in jurisdiction is concerned, it was not a homicide. Right. Now here in this scenario, we have a room full of people to decide that. In fact, it's, well, it still sounds like it falls on the shoulders of one individual, but they have to sit in a courtroom like setting and deliver the information and their findings to a room full of people. I think that's great. I think it's fascinating. I think it leaves less room for error, not perfect,

59:03but less room for error. So our little, as I'm calling it, courtroom activity here, Captain, is the official inquest as it were April 18th, 1979, when East Sussex Corner John Dodd reported what wasn't expected verdict, unlawful killing. He determined this to be an unlawful killing. However, at this inquest, there was no accused sitting in the dock. There was no jury. And so no relief for the public or for the family. Peter Frame appeared at the inquest. He was dressed in a dark blue suit. He spoke clearly. He admitted that he had not especially approved a Margaret taking the cleaning job in May 1978, again, because it made their hours clash at times. He said, expanding on that, he said, on occasion, he had to take their son to work with him. He said, he had heard rumors, and this is also something that was discussed at the inquest,

1:00:06rumors and whispers that Margaret was unfaithful and having an affair. And Peter addressed that. He said, look, I heard those rumors too. Somehow they made their way to me when she was still alive during the course of our marriage. He said, what I did was I confronted the man that was named in the allegation. Yeah. This was a, I don't know who the man is, so take this with a grain of salt, but the way I understand it or trying to make some inferences here, it sounds like this was a married man and the, the frames were, were friends, maybe even good friends with this other couple. And they remember he said how many people were calling and offering sympathies and things of that nature. These were, this was a popular couple. So he says he confronted the man that was named in those rumors or the rumors he had heard.

1:01:06And the man told him, that's not true. I'm not sleeping with your wife. And he said the man denied it. And Peter said, I accepted his denial. I believed him. And he said, because I believed him and didn't want to make waves, he said, I never brought the matter up to Margaret. I never mentioned it to Margaret. I did my own little investigation, found that it wasn't accurate and didn't feel the need to bring it up or upset my wife with it. He did say, look, our marriage wasn't perfect. And another English phrase here, he goes, there had been rows in the marriage. He said at one time there was even some talk of separation, but they had moved past that. It sounds like at the time of her murder, they were working on a home project together. They were redoing their kitchen. And he said that I think this is, this sounds very typical barrage to me. He's like, I didn't really want to redo the kitchen probably because he didn't want to spend the money. She wanted to redo the kitchen

1:02:07and other rooms in the home. And they agreed to redo the kitchen together. They were spending money, time and effort on it. And he pointed that out at the inquest. He's like the home improvement seemed to make her happy. Like she seemed to be happy and excited about the kitchen remodeling and was even talking about it with her friends. She seems to me like she's going through something. And obviously it's a big change. Yeah. When your kids go to school and now you have extra time and now you're trying to go, what's my place in this world? And that could lead to other things. So was there any flirtatious? Was there any affair? Who knows for certain? But then you go, well she wanted to get a job and then she was diving into these projects. Again, I just still know how any of that leads. Because even this guy, even if this guy that he confronted,

1:03:07even if they're having a affair, then you go, well where was his whereabouts? And then... And to be clear, what's interesting there too is he's not a mystery man, this affair man, right? If the named individual in the rumors is accurate, then he's not a mystery man to anyone. If you knew her personally, you could probably get her alone. Why attack her in the park? There's so many variables that you can't control. You, right, you run the risk of getting caught, you run the risk of her getting away. Her ability to flee in the park would be much greater than if you, if you tried to trap her in close quarters. But the one benefit it does offer to someone if they're putting together a premeditated murder is it would certainly open up the suspect pool quite a bit. Yeah, he would have a much larger, larger number of potential suspects.

1:04:08But he simply says, look, I can't say 100% certain, nobody knows exactly what anybody's thinking or exactly what someone else is feeling on the inside, but he said, look, by my account, she was happy. You know, I don't know what you want me to say by from the way I saw it and the way I saw things leading up to her death, up to her murder, she was happy. You know, most of the time, if your partner is not happy, you know about it. Well, and I'd like what you said that she, going through some things is a way to put it and probably accurate. I think for me, anyway, No, exactly. And for me, and I can only speak from my personal experience, but I think one very healthy and productive thing to do is to have goals. Now, also understand that once you achieve those goals, there can be a little bit of a backfire there, right? You set out to achieve this goal, you work so hard to do it,

1:05:09and then once you've achieved that, now there's this little kind of flat line time where you're like, well, what do I do now? Yeah. What's my next move here? And is this the end? Am I done? But the other thing too is set a new goal. Your next goal doesn't have to be as big of an accomplishment as the last one. They don't always have to get greater. You don't always have to ramp things up and like you said, going through some things, I think is accurate because it's, she's still a young woman, she's in her mid 30s. You know, to this point, finish school. Get married, have a child. Okay, now my next move is I'm staying at home with the kid. I'm raising the kid. All right, now he's at school. He's gone and in school full time. I'm bored out of my mind. And so she takes this job to have a little bit of fun and to get her out of the house, plain and simple. One thing I really liked about what we learned at this inquest and this goes back to how good of a job that I think they did. And I think that the,

1:06:10when I say that I simply mean that the detectives in the police from what I can view, they seem to cover all bases here. They seem to really put a great, great deal of effort into this investigation. They still had a lot of questions, but what was stated at the inquest here is that by early 1979, the old house to house canvassing, the knock and knock, or sorry, knock and talk. Doesn't too much good if they don't open the door. I'm just gonna stand out here and talk to you for a while. Don't mind me. Upon a mate, can you open up the door so I can have a cup of tea? So that's when you get the boom box out and you throw some pebbles up at the window and hope that they open up. Open up baby, we're gonna talk. But so at the inquest, it was stated that police had knocked and talked a number of houses.

1:07:11Their house to house canvassing exceeded 4,600 addresses. And we have Detective Phillips who also spoke at the inquest. He said, I feel like a walking encyclopedia of the case, I would give anything to catch him, he said. He said that to colleagues time and time again into the reporters. He said he was constantly reviewing the killer's movements in the dark, the long labor of hauling a body and the night hacking at the throat. And he openly speculated, he said, perhaps the killer was trying to sever the head. He said, I also think about the killer scooping out a shallow trench, laying the body face down, then walking out of the woods, blending into the lights along the road, maybe even getting into a car. Then, so this is all early 79. Then in an unrelated matter, in July of 1979, Brighton's courts convicted a 42 year old roof Tyler

1:08:15named Roy Bishop of digging for Badgers in Staminer Park. So this is one of the first reported cases under England's Badger Act of 1964. So they try this guy and convict them of this. He had been discovered knee deep in a freshly dug out run of Badger sets. And he had nets pegged over five other entrances, escape routes for the Badgers plugged up with these nets. Bishop, defending himself, insisted that he was not digging for Badgers, which is illegal. He was digging for foxes. And he had done this before. And when he gets one to attempt to escape, he will smack it on the head with a mallet or a shovel, killing the animal. And then he is, so he's hunting these animals. Right. And this, we kind of odd way, but he sounds like he's successful in doing it.

1:09:16And he says he's doing it simply for the pelts. And his argument again was he said, I'm profiting from selling the skins. And he said, anybody that knows anything knows that you have to dig much deeper for Badgers. So what you're charging me with is not what I was doing. However, the court did find the evidence compelling. They found him to be guilty. And he was fined in order to pay court cost as well. So this is not something you go to prison for, but he was had to pay a heavy fine and had to pay the court cost. Now, I'm noting this because of the location, Stammer Park. It's odd to come across a story of a man with tools in Stammer Park digging into the earth for reasons both illegal but also unrelated to the murder. Yeah. By mid October 1979, as the first anniversary of Margaret's death approach detectives

1:10:17tested a possible theory. They did this on the down low, my friend. We're going to test the possible theory that killers return to the scene. So they mounted clan, death, Stein, all night watches at the lonely spot in Stammer Park. This in the second week of October. So they timed their surveillance to be after dark or undercover all around the days leading up to October 12th, the one year anniversary of the night that she was killed, the 12th itself and the days that followed. They're simply just waiting for a man hoping to, that this guy will return to the scene, looking for the man who had buried Margaret to be drawn back by compulsion or ritual to the spot where he had killed her or buried her. This is a great idea. Again, this is them covering every and all bases. Unfortunately, no figure appeared from the trees.

1:11:18The watches did reveal something however, instead. They said the surveillance proved that the spot is now a no-go area for the public. He said a police source said the hill that once held dog walkers and evening strollers was now avoided, haunted, not by the supernatural, but by memory and people simply would not go to that area. Interviewed around the year mark of the murder, Peter frame, said that he and the family were just trying to absorb the grief and they're trying their best to get into some regular routine. He, in interviews, expressed a balance between anguish and gratitude and he said he had a lot of gratitude for those who stood by him, but also added, quote, I hope they catch the pig who did it. These stories, one of a haunted house, a murder

1:12:19and a kitchen, one shallow grave ran through Brighton in 1977, 78 and 79 like someone running through the park alone in the dark. Now, Captain nearly five decades have passed since those nights drew the city of Brighton's breath short. And yet the questions remain and they remain in the police files, the blue car, the woman in the dark clothes, the missing knife, the missing jewelry, the man begging for a ride. In the late 70s, there was Roger and Ann DeBose case where a judge spoke of mercy and emotional stress and the Margaret frame murder case, the sergeant lay awake and placed each thought in a bedside notebook and willing the next call to be the right one. Peter frame raised his boy alone. Andrew frame learned to live without a mother. Brighton learned to keep to lit routes, to walk in company,

1:13:20to listen for the ordinary voice that might cover an unbearable secret. And the woods learned a silence people respected not because of what they wouldn't believe, but because of what they could never forget. Want to thank you again for joining us here in the garage with love for you to join us in the garage for off the record on Patreon or Apple Podcast subscription. This is just the start, chapter one and chapter two. That's right. Make sure you join us back here in the garage for next week. These are just the early chapters of an overarching story. I know that they sound like it's open and shut presentation here, but there is plenty more to come with this story here in the garage. Until next week, be good, be kind. Don't look at me.

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