Are You Nicer to Strangers Than Your Partner ft. DeWanda Wise

0:00Confession on about that, too, because I've known that you were married this entire time. It feels so perfect that I feel like every few years I check in to be like, who has a baby by somebody else. Are they still together? And it's just, I don't want to say uneventful, because I'm sure they'll be. It's very uneventful. Hilariously uneventful is the kind of relationship that's very good on the nervous system. There have been people who met Alano and think that he's a lot. There have been people who met me and been like, oh, that's a strong woman and turned to Alano and be like, oh, that seems like that's a lot. We are not a lot to each other. It's what partnership is meant to do, which is hold the mirror up and lovingly call you home to yourself. I know how you like yourself. This isn't the you that you enjoy being. So what's going on? What's wrong? Hey there, lovers. My favorite quote is the key to happiness is managing expectations.

1:00So I want to tell you what to expect with this episode. So I'm going to have a conversation with Dewanda Wise who you might recognize from some blockbuster movies as well as some hit TV shows about the balance between accepting and enabling your partner's flaws or not so nice parts. In addition, you're going to see some ads in this episode. Those are very important to keep the show looking beautiful. And if you are watching, I hope you genuinely enjoy all the effort we put into production. And if you like it, subscribing, hitting notifications makes such a huge impact in the show's ability to grow, get more awesome guests and keep serving you. Now, if you're listening, there's a treat for you too. At the end of the episode, I have a reflection that it's kind of a secret between you and I. Something that's a little too uncomfortable often to say on camera. So listeners, you get to hear that. All right, now that we're all clear, let's get into this conversation with star of Love Brooklyn, Dewanda Wise.

2:03Love Brooklyn is so lovely. Thank you. It's just so deliciously slow. Yes. And I love that about it. It because it allows you to pick up, like I always say, like in a lot, even in romance, right, there's a temptation to just let yourself fall in love. Yeah. Like when you're riding a bike and you let yourself, your foot off the brakes, hair in the wind, no helmet, when you're just going, then the little public comes. You don't have time to course correct. Or you just miss all of the little, small, delicious nuggets along the way. Right. Or red flags. So I like a slow burn because it allows you to pick it up and interpret it so many different ways. And I think it's really beautiful, specifically for a black film to be slow. I mean, I think it's radical for a black film to be slow, you know, certain indie filmmakers when they make a slow movie where like nothing happens, you know, I think we're just so accustomed to seeing white people that were like, oh, duh, duh, duh. But when black folks make a black film and it's like slice of life,

3:03it's just, you know, getting to see us live and breathe and figure things out in real time. Um, you know, I think we're just, we've been kind of conditioned and acculturated to things that are like high drama. Mm-hmm. Um, and I just found it fascinating. Do you know what confession on about that too? Because I've known that you were married this entire time because you've been married for forever. Sixteen years. Oh, much of my life. You've been married long enough for you guys to say it at brunch and then wait for the applause. Yeah, I know. It's really for real. We've been married for 16 years. Everyone. So, Sophie, where's my certificate? I'm a certificate. And so you got famous or your big break happened and you were already partnered. And your partner is an actor as well too. And you guys are this gorgeous couple. And it's like, it feels so perfect that I feel like every few years, I check in to be like, who has a baby by somebody else now. Right. Who's done this? Are they still together?

4:04Yeah. And it's a slow, I don't want to say uneventful. Because I'm sure there's very uneventful. Okay, good. Very hilariously uneventful. I mean, I think we spent 16 years being like, you know, oh my god, what happened? Who was doing what? That's crazy. So anyway, what do you want for dinner? You know, it's very simple. It's the kind of relationship that's very good on the nervous system. You know, he's a immensely reliable human being, super consistent. That doesn't mean that there isn't like that we haven't evolved a lot. We're completely different people, completely different people, you know, than who we were 16 years ago. But we've just kind of taken the like ride together, you know? We've like gone down the river, wrapped together. And what I love that as an analogy to because you did something that I don't think a lot of

5:05people do, which is create, I want to call it the commandments, early in your relationship, you created commandments for how you guys wanted to stay together, love together, and enjoy the journey together. And sometimes people can make commandments. Then five years in realize we're completely different. These don't work. Yes, but sometimes you don't. So I'd love to hear the story about how you guys got there and how those commandments are applicable or not today. I think, and I can't even, I think part of it was the just early conversations. One thing that I think was essential, that I realized before I even met Alano. Before I met Alano, I was dating Arastifarian, who was fantastic, and we would have been a great match. But I was like, don't want to, at the time, for sure, you know, I was raised Christian. My mother is a minister and a Methodist faith. And, you know, at the time, I was like, I think I need that foundation of shared values. Even before I met him, I was like, all right, Domanda, you gotta stop playing these games where

6:07you're like, recreationally dating somebody who doesn't believe what you believe. So I met Alano, and I think rather early on, in the context of talking about previous relationships, a number of things were super evident that we just like, carte blanche agreed on. One of them, and I think it's like really the nucleus is, I would like you to treat me well, super simple. I would like you to treat me well, you know, this thing that happens very often, super, very natural, is very human, where, you know, we find safety in our partners, and so we may not treat them as well as the people we work with, or, you know, strangers on the street, you know, me and Alano, we even joke about it, we'd be like, no, act for me, give me your best, okay, wipe your feet at the door, plaster that smile on your face, you know, I want the goodness, I want the good in you,

7:09and it's not perfect, you know, we fail all the time, we're both actors, we're both very moody, emotive people, but when it comes to specifically the projection that happens, you know, the rule makes space obviously for our humanity and the safety and being able to create the intimacy and the vulnerability that we need, but when it comes to that kind of, like, projection, the name calling, the like, we just don't do it, we just don't do it, and we never have, we've been very fortunate, and the reason why I brought it up today, that I was like, thinking about it's because like, you know, the last two months, my hormones are shifting, or whatever, I'm definitely approaching Paramount Apples, absolutely, and I like blew up at him about something minor, and I am like cool to find the minor for me. The minor was like, oh, we're working on another project, and that's also the thing, Alano and I were like, our lives are like, that a measurement is real, like, we work together on everything,

8:13and love it, and love it. I mean, if I didn't, I'd be like, okay, I'm just saying, you know, so we're producing a project, and he was speaking to our producing partner without me, and I like, chewed him out. And after that, he like, instead of matching my energy, I'm so very grateful for this. Instead of matching my energy, he just softened, and he was like, what's going on? I was like, oh, right, it was, you know, it's what partnership is meant to do, which is hold the mirror up, and lovingly, gently call you in, and call you home to yourself, you know, because it wasn't even a matter of it being something that's like, oh, we set that rule, and you're not following the rules, it wasn't about that. It was a recognition that he's like, I know how you like yourself. You know, like, I know the you that you enjoy being,

9:13this isn't the you that you enjoy being, so what's going on? What's wrong? This is so good, because it collides against the exact fork in the road that I feel like I'm at right now. Sorry for the interruption. Thank you so much for staying with us, and we would love you to come back for this episode of Lovers next week. It's supposed to be fantastical, and you described it to Lord and I as agonizing. Yes. Within two years, you want to be engaged to her, Mary. The man to side that you're his wife, he's not been away since the time. Because he go, huh? Until he feel like stopped. When you get a marry, that girl. You know, my career was hitting that stride. It felt like every woman I was meeting was just incredible, and then I met my wife, and it's just like, everything felt easy, it felt right, but it was just terrifying. I'm like, what if I'm wrong? This abundance of optionality is secretly undermining a lot of people's ability to actually build or foster intimacy with the people that they're dating. I think it's backfiring in a lot of significant ways. My stepmom, she was like, what are you waiting for it? I was

10:13like, well, I don't know. Like, how do I know if I'm going to be happy with her in 20 years, if I want to spend the rest of my life with her? And she was like, Mark Manson, and she's right. So the next day I went, I went ring shopping. Does your wife feel knowing it? Lovers, let's talk about what's happening inside of your vagina with the sponsor of this episode, Evie, because you deserve to know what's up down there. Now, I know conversation drunk women's health feel overwhelming all of a sudden. That's because up until 1993, women weren't even required to be a part of clinical trial. So we are genuinely playing catch-up. Now, I don't know about you, but I went through a period of time in my life where I went from B.V. to UTI, to yeast infections, almost on repeat. And eventually I figured out what was causing these, but I never genuinely knew why. So I consider it such a privilege of today. I'm going to be doing a test in front of you guys to screen for over 700 different kinds of bacteria and fungi within my vaginal microbiome. Let's go. Evie combines at-home vaginal microbiome testing with

11:14clinician-guided care, screening for over 700 bacteria and fungi, linked to things like discomfort, recurring B.V., yeast infections, UTIs, and hormone-related changes. If you're eligible, an Evie-affiliated clinician can review your results to help guide personalized care for your specific microbiome. You can also add STI testing. Go to Evie's website, use my code Lovers by Shantan to get 10% off your first purchase up to $25. Again, that's code Lovers by Shantan when you go to the Evie website, which you can find in the link and bio or the show notes. Join me in gaining confidence through clarity. We deserve that. It collides against the exact fork in the road that I feel like I'm at right now, specifically with parenting, but I've been there before in my romantic relationship. So there's a kind of a school of thought that healthy relationships require three things at bare minimum, which is self-insight, emotional regulation, and mutuality.

12:15So self-insight and mutual and emotional regulation are 100% within your control, which means that two-thirds of any good relationship is really about you. An emotional regulation basically is like to the point that you're making, just because I feel something doesn't mean I have to express something. I can suppress, I can shift, I can add perspective, but I'm not going to act just because I feel, and we do that all the time in the world. Yes, we do it all the time, and I think for a lot of people, we express it thus. We go, well, I'm just being me, or I can only be me, where it kind of takes away that it takes away a level of self-efficacy and autonomy to go, you're still you, you are still you, and there are just other tools and tactics. But then it kind of gets to a place where it's just like, at what point does emotional regulation just mean self-denial, and now I'm just in yet another relationship where I have to

13:15play a role, I can't be myself. Right. Yeah, I know, it's real. It's a really wild balance. When your self-centership is detrimental, or the difference between, okay, this moment is really heated, and I just need to take a pause, so I don't say something that I'm going to regret, but I'm going to still communicate the thing, you know. And even in this like friction that Alano and I had, afterwards, I said, you know, how I felt, I meant it. Like it's not, I'm not going to like gaslight myself into believing that, you know, what I was thinking or feeling wasn't an honest reflection of what I think or feel. It's just that my filter, there's a reason why they say like, you know, you reach 40 and you have less fucks or whatever. It's like, I think it's biological actually. I don't, I don't think it's like all of a sudden you're like, oh yeah, you know what, that's not important to me more than I'm like, oh no, no, no, something actually literally clicks,

14:18and it's great in many ways, and maybe a little tricky in other ways. So yeah, it was that where, and then it keeps eroding until you're the grandparent at Thanksgiving that people are like, just don't engage. Just don't let it just let it go. Just let it go. I can't wait. Wait, but no, there's definitely a level and, you know, having the self-awareness for me, I know the difference because my body is loud. Like I know the difference because, you know, if I'm a whole, if I'm really holding something, my digestion will be messed up, my nervous system, my show I can fill into my shoulders, I'm carrying, you know. So yeah, and you also have to know where things, where their home is. Sometimes the home is a conversation with a friend. Sometimes the home is conversation with my mama. That's a home a lot, a home a lot is a conversation with my mom. Sometimes it's a therapist's conversation. Sometimes it's a journal, and other times it's

15:20your partner, but that idea where, you know, that carte blanche like, oh, you know, communication, like sometimes it's actually not. That's actually not where the processing needs to happen. Which I think also to speak to like my one of my least favorite relationship advice is the key to a healthy relationship is communication. Not that it's bad advice, but it's like being like the key to good acting is hitting your mark. Yeah, yeah, it's an oversimplification. It's an oversimplification. And in that, people can interpret that in a million ways. I can say, oh, the key to how the relationship is communication. So I express whatever I'm feeling when I'm feeling it. Yeah, actually, you know, movie TV show I hated so much. And people loved it as a romantic show. Nobody wants this. Oh, I haven't seen it yet. And it's kind of the basic insecure attachment or anxious attachment with the secure attachment. And so for a lot of women, it was like very healing because she was just able, her big line to him was like, people say I'm too much. And then he was like, you're not too much for me.

16:25No, that's the dream. But it's such a psychover-perfect dream. Yeah. But at his 13-year-old nieces, bat mitzvah, it's a call when you're the girl. Is it a bat? Yep. Bat mitzvah. And he was like doing something. He was an important part of it. Yeah. His 13-year-old nieces her big day. She broke up with him and then gets into a shuttle to get back to her car and is like sad that he's not there. And as the audience were supposed to be sad that he didn't chase her. And then she gets to her car and he is there. And that's the big moment. I'm like, this is a terrible lesson. That is a terrible lesson. That's a terrible lesson. But it's for some people like, that's the whole point of love. Yeah. He's finding someone where you will tolerate all of your stuff. That's the dream. That's really funny. Well, as somebody who's been married for, you know, damn near 20 years now, where's the truth in these two extremes?

17:29These two fantasies. I mean, I think there's a, we have a high degree of, it's so interesting. I just, I think I see it as, I have friends I train with, right? Filmmakers, actors. And when I was in my 20s, before a lot of when I met, I like slept on couches and did all the things that, you know, actors do to like, survive and make it. Did all the things. At the time, I was not thinking, come into me and go talk about this. I wasn't thinking like, whoa, is me? I'm a struggling actor, right? I just wasn't thinking that at all. And that is just very simply a matter of perspective. All to say, there have been people who have met Alano and, um, think that he's a lot.

18:33There have been people who I'm sure have like met me and been like, who does a strong woman and turned to Alano and be like, oh, that seems like that's a lot. We are not a lot to each other. We are well matched. All to say, I think underneath of the fantasy, um, that recurring fantasy of tolerance, of high tolerance is wanting to find the partner for whom, you know, who you are, your authentic self is not passing strange. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I think there's a difference between. He defined that phrase for me. Not passing strange is like, it's not even the second thought. You know, like my, um, moodiness, my need for, let me list all my faults, okay? I'm gonna list all my weaknesses. My moodiness, my high need for personal space and quiet time and quiet.

19:33My level of like focused attention when I'm in like work mode, you know, all these things that I think probably, um, to someone else would be, um, a deal breaker or a lot of work or annoying or whatever, inconvenient, you know, um, they are just not to Alano. It's not a big deal to him. I respect the, I think, underneath of the, the toxicity of that belief is really a desire to be loved unconditionally. Yes. You know, but in it, which is what I was saying earlier is, but how do you like yourself? Like what does it mean to be walking an integrity and alignment with your best self? Like part of the reason I'm not, I don't like to nag is because I don't like to nag. That's it. I just don't like to nag. I don't want to be a woman who nags. I want half the

20:37nag, you know, and Alano knows that. And so, you know, uh, the, the load split in our houses, especially when it comes to like, you know, heterosexual couples, it's pretty even. Oh my gosh. I'm having, this is like so to me why I have this platform. Like it really just feels like that because you actually answered my question perfectly in sometimes in a way that I'm like, I don't even know if I even understood what I was trying to say, but that to me is the key, the not passing strange because it just speaks to the importance of acknowledging your own personal tolerance and the tools you have. Not to similarly from like, don't go into an accounting field and then get pissed at the fact that there's so many numbers. I interviewed, uh, you know, the Gotmans. Yeah. So I interviewed them. And then, uh, Julie was just saying like, in this country, in particular, and maybe in many Western countries, needs are not accepted. They are not okay to express. We're supposed to pull ourselves up

21:40by our bootstraps. We're supposed to be independent. We're supposed to be strong. We're not supposed to need anything, especially if women are expressing needs. Oh, they're too needy. Right? How many times have we heard that? There's no such thing as too needy. Oh my gosh. You just gave porn to millions of women out there. Good. Good. Yeah. Good. Let them let them go for it. If that's what they want, if that's what they're seeking, why not? Do you know why I'm messing with that? Because I have a two and a four year old, right? So I have kids who are the epitome of neediness, right? Yeah. Sure. My kids don't care if I'm in the middle of doing something. They don't care if it's a restaurant, like their needs are always in their mind paramount. Yeah. So I'm just think that there are a lot of people who could misinterpret it, or maybe I'm putting on a protective lenses that need to be there. It may not be that it's too much of a need. It's rather that the needs are clashing against one another. And there's no middle ground.

22:48You know, it's a little bit like the common example I want a kid. Well, I don't. All right. What are you going to do? You're not going to have half a kid. When her dream is his nightmare. Yes. That's right. Exactly. So there are relationships where that comes into play. And then, okay, the needs are different. And the needs, there's no too much of a need. It's they're different. And they're sufficiently different that there's no way we can make it work. Listen, five times a day, I'm like, I could not date people like my kids. Dare. I just know. This is how you guys are going to be in a relationship. Free roll. I would not want to date a free roll. They're just so needy. But maybe that's also speaking to my capacity, right? Yeah. You just don't have the tolerance for the specific challenges that are present there. And I think because relationships are social or they're subject to so much social commentary, I can look at some else's relationship and be like, how do you put up with that person and judge them without acknowledging that I put up with

23:52things that maybe that person, correct, wouldn't be able to tolerate. Yes. Yeah. And it's just, I think walking into it, it's just that. It's radical self-honesty, you know. I know many people, we called it, Alana and I used to call it like meeting your representative. Yeah. Because yeah, when you meet someone, of course, you're like, you have all your, you have all your good armor on whatever that is. But eventually it does, it has to come down. Well, that's the thing, I guess, too. Because in the world, we all have to kind of pretend to be the same person, right? Manners, politeness, like, hello, how are you? How is the weather? It's okay. Like, we have to do the same thing. Yeah, we gotta do the script. Yes. And then in a relationship where ourselves, and then you're like, well, wait a second, like, that's not the same person. It's like, yeah, because nobody is that person. Nobody is that person. Nobody is that person. You have to like that home person. Yeah. This is a resident for me, too, because growing up, what you were saying, like,

24:54my dad used to constantly say that my mom, he's like, I wish that I was stranger to you. And when I reflect on that, my mom, her dad left when she was born. And her mom had to remarry during that time. You needed a man to survive. So how about bank account? Yes, exactly. So she had to remarry quite quickly. My grandma's black, she married a white man. So that was going to afford her just a certain level of access in life. She held all the power, all the cards, treated my mom terribly in every imaginable way. But my grandma relied on this man for safety. She had other children with him. My whole life, my mom had to try her best to fit in and be accepted within a scenario that hated her. And so when she got into romantic relationship with my dad, those were all those wounds that existed. There's also the version of herself who knew how to get along to get by. Right. So that's the version of her that he'd see out

25:55in the world and public. And then at home, she was this very wounded person. He just kept constantly being like, where's that person that was at the party? Why do I have to deal with this version of you or this person of you? And so yeah, I grew up in a household where it was constantly kind of reinforced. Like, you know, that line that treat me like a stranger and I'll feel so loved. Oh, I love that. I think I like something you just said made me think about the other direction too. Because I feel very much so like I've not only carved out space in my marriage to be my full self, I've also continually moved into environments in the world where I could be my real self. Like we that's part of the reason, you know, we moved to the northeast was so that I could live in a place where when I walk out the door, I don't have to have a lot of armor where people just get to meet me for who I actually am and not like don't want to wise.

27:01You know, so I think there's a there's a balance because if you continue to construct a world for yourself, even in your professional life, even in your career, where you don't feel so much like you're wearing a corset and you have to tighten it all up all the time, you know, where there is a level of safety. I have that safety blessedly with my reps, you know, where I can say what I need to say, where they can say what they need to say. It's like it's on both sides too, which is important. But I have a lot of safety and so many of the other environments in my life where that also makes it less likely for me to spill at home. Yes. You know, and I think that's the other missing part of the conversation because it's a practice that other part of you more. Yeah, you get to practice being the shitty part of you. Yes. Yeah. And then refining it because you're

28:04doing it in more than one place and more than one place. So it doesn't have to live, you know, I, because safety is important to me, like spiritual, psychological, physical, safety is so important to me. And, you know, like I won't walk into a job that I know is going to be detrimental. Like I know actors who would like they will sign up for something and they know this actor's a nightmare or they know this director is because I will cut you up. And then I'll be the bad guy. You know, what this actually relates to be to love Brooklyn. And are you familiar with Kennedy Ryan's work? Yes. I love Kennedy Ryan. And she is very big on women who are not marginalized being brought into the centerfold. And women who are not usually put into the centerfold, not only being there, but being there with extremely high expectations. Oh, yes. And authenticity. Yes. Because where it is, it goes back to what's the character name in love Brooklyn? Nicole. Nicole. So Nicole is a single mom,

29:05which already that tells like going back to my story of my grandma. Yeah. She already is like, well, I have to accept any man because I already have a child. Mm-hmm. Even if he treats my child poorly, that that's a sacrifice because I'm already not worthy of standards. Right. Right. So I have to, in essence, like the the performative nature of it, right, which I think could be misinterpreted of what you were saying as the commandment. But in this character, Nicole's character, she is dating somebody who's showing a little bit of avoidant behavior, but also still trying to figure it out, creating the boundaries there. And I think a lot of emotional regulation had to come into play because there's like questions around other relationships on the other side of it. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Where do you think that she falls within this rulebook? Like how would you offer what you're saying to her advice to her based on what we're saying right now? I think it evolves because when she's like when we meet Nicole at the top of the film, his ambivalence and that kind of,

30:11you know, oh, what is this? Works well for her because she's also not ready to commit. You know, the expectations and her standards when it comes to like relationships are absolutely high. You know, there's a difference for her between like, okay, we're having sex at midnight versus, you know, this is going to evolve into something real. Once her daughter is like, hey, I want to hang out with him too. It's like, oh, you know, that's when the vibe shifts. That's when everything changes because if it is meant to be something more substantial, you know, then there are conversations that they would have to have to make that a reality, you know. It's going to ask to like even for you, did you guys go to like a Christian pastor who counseled you very early on? Like how did you even have the wherewithal to start creating a relational value system? Tim Keller's marriage series.

31:13That's so funny you asked that. It was Tim. So we used to go to Redeemer Presbyterian. May he rest Tim Keller's brilliant theologian, but he actually has a series of books and one of them, he turned into, you know, you could like listen to the audio version too. But that's what we did. We had like, yeah, because we did, we got married and like ridiculous, you know, very soon after we met. But that was the early, yeah, that was the early foundation of it, yep. And so then those gave you the prompts. Yeah, those were the tools, those were the early tools. Would you suggest other people do the same thing? Absolutely. Christian or not, honestly, I think, you know, one of my favorite astrologers, Jessica Lignato, she talks about values all the time and I think she talks about values all the time because because people aren't going to church or, you know, they have no necessarily like religious affiliation. They don't even think to ask themselves like, well, what do I value? Or what is, you know, integrity to me? You know, I mean, and we see it. There's like so much

32:18spillage in society right now. It's just people just act now and while and now and spill in our stuff all over everybody else, it's really wild. You know, and part of that is an eradication of, you know, shared values and what is like very simply like, that's right or that's wrong. Like, it's, you know, it's, it's really dissolved and that's only impacted our relationships. So you did this foundational work of creating these values for your relationship, right? Which I think is extremely important, right? And their values that you've kept, but you've also had to be flexible with over time. Absolutely. Through hormonal changes and shifts, through career changes, through moving from LA to the woods. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but above all else, you guys, they'll hold on to the truth that like, treat me well in this relationship, while also being yourself in this relationship, which is an interesting balance. I've want to really reflect on this because where this feels like a very hot button for me is,

33:22is in parenting, because I'm finding it very tricky to figure out the balance between letting my kid be themselves and also, and also not letting themselves deteriorate my lived experience. Yeah. Real. You know, I mean, because a part of me wants to tell you to, to tuck it back in the way that you would if we read a restaurant. I was talking to your mom before we started rolling, and she had some really amazing wisdom about you. Margie, would you be down to step in and give some advice? Can I ask you a couple of questions? Do you mind? Okay. I would love that. Help me make sense of this. Fix it. A lot of people who don't go to church anymore, when I was growing up, most people did. And so one of the things we learned was about grace and allowing people to have another chance. Children should learn that it's okay to mess up, because if they learn that it's okay to mess up, then they can make a course correction on their own. They don't need the nagging,

34:27they don't need the yelling, you know, it doesn't work anyway, because it goes in this ear and goes out the other and then they just go out and play and do whatever else they were going to do. So we should allow children to be themselves and be children without that extra lot of yelling and nagging, because they don't hear that, they don't receive it. The Wandaath was very emotional, and I sometimes didn't understand what the fifth was about, why she was crying or why she was laying on floors at times, but I didn't give it all the attention. Sometimes I just let her lay there until she got tired and then when she got finished having her fit, then we would sit and talk about it. What happened? What was wrong? And sometimes she couldn't always communicate it, but then sometimes she could tell me what exactly she was mad about, upset about. And most of the time to me, it was goofy, ridiculous, and it had no meaning,

35:33but it had some meaning for her. It was important to her. And so I've always told her that if it's important to you, then that's fine, because we need to know what's important to us, what it is we want, what it is we need, and things like that. I think that the habit of not trusting your own emotions or feeling like your emotions are inconvenient is something that a lot of people grew up with. But now that I have kids who are really young, a part of me is like, well, should I not teach you that yet, not everybody should be subject to all of your emotions all the time. Right. Jada Pinkett actually wrote about that in her memoir. I wanted for deep regrets around raising Willow was that sometimes her emotionality, how emotional she was, was just too much for her. So she would send her away. I can't do this right now. I can't deal with this. So she would send her away or ask her to push it down. And she's like, I regret doing that. But I have a very

36:35emotional one of my kids. It's extremely emotional. I do find myself saying like, this is a happy space. Everybody in this room is happy. If you can't participate in that space, then you don't belong here. Oh, I know it was that bad. Well, not go bad, not go bad. I don't think there's a good or bad because there were times when she cried so much. She literally was hanging by the neck in the back of the car one time. She had jumped out of her car seat and was screaming and my son kept going, mom, oh, mom. And I wasn't paying rent. I'm like, I'm driving. And I will look at her when I stop at light. And when I turned around, she was hanging out of the chair. And I just adjusted her back up in there and kept it going because I'm like, okay, I'm not going to give her the power of knowing that every time she cries, I'm going to stop everything I'm doing or just jump every time she cries.

37:40She cried at night in her crib. Her dad was like, aren't she going to get the kid? No. I'm going to let her cry it out and work with her emotions. And I still need to cry it out. Yeah, I still need to cry it out. And I also still need space to figure out like, I will have a feeling before I have an understanding of what's happening. Still, that's still just how my body works. You know, and having the space everywhere, having the space for my mom, having the space for my husband, having the space for my friends, to, you know, to be that, to like process things, how I process them. And to go like, oh, okay, now I know what this is about because I was given the space and nobody was rushing the process, you know. So yeah, that still hasn't changed. I was just saying to you, how you're a dream come true to me. You know, I had kids because I want this moment one day where I have an adult who I'm like, I sacrifice a lot, but you're doing life your way. You are loved,

38:45you are loving, you are appreciated, you are sharing your authentic gifts with the world. And the world gives back to you in a way that you give to the world. And that reciprocity is rare. Yes, 40 minutes later, and I'm still cutting up my avocado. Can I actually say something really funny about the opportunity that I get to talk with very interesting people that I'm drawn to. I enjoy their work is when I was younger, I was a photographer. And one of the main reasons I wanted to become a photographer is because I saw that many photographers were men and they were using their position to get closer to women. And I was like, I want to create a space where women get to feel comfortable and beautiful without also feeling like the photographer wants anything else and then just to make them feel comfortable and beautiful. And I kind of feel like I used my podcast to try to make friends because everybody who I talk to, I'm like, can we, can we hang out later? Later. Thankfully for all of us, we can all hang out with Dewanda in theory when we go and follow her

39:47on social media and we watch her projects. I actually am going to watch three women. I haven't watched that yet. I don't know why I'm waving at you guys, but I read the book and I really loved it. So and I know I'm going to really enjoy her depiction of Sloan. So that's on my next to-do list. If you haven't checked out Love Brooklyn, highly suggest. I really, really love that film. And I also let the chat with the other star of that film, Andre Holland. If you haven't seen that episode, go and check it out. Speaking of checking things out, if you resonated with a lot of what Dewanda said, maybe because you relate or because you aspire to some of it, we actually have a relationship check-in walk through on the lovers website. So if you go to loversbyshan.com, hit the quiz section, you'll put in your email and there you get a list of all these resources. And the check-in is a really, really good resource that I think is awesome to help couples get on the same page and kind of figure out what actually are our shared values. What are some of the things that we both really want to prioritize in the relationship? So do me a favor and go check that out. Jared and I

40:49also have an episode where we went through the check-in together. So if you wanted a tutorial for that. And that actually leads me to what I really want to talk about now. And that is the conversation that Jared and I had in the check-in just around parenting in general and the conundrum that happens where it's kind of hard to pee yourself around your kids when you're just so much in my usual relationships, I'm mostly just letting people be. And I find that sometimes very challenging to do around my children. So I want to talk about that more because there was actually a clip from that check-in episode that I put out that a lot of people really misunderstood. So yeah, I want to chat through that. But for everybody watching, thank you for watching to this point. Thank you for being here. Really appreciate your time. And again, if you enjoyed this episode, a big thank you would be to comment, share your thoughts and perspectives I want to hear from you. And also subscribe to the channel and hit notifications. Can I make a confession right now to everybody here? The episode with Dewanda, we shot last year. And don't get me wrong, we just

41:57sometimes with putting episodes out. It's less about how good they are. It's just more about finding the right timing and also making sure that the topics are diverse enough, for no from week to week to make sure that all of our lovers feel like they get to have their story heard. But I will tell you that I did fear this episode wouldn't be good, not because of Dewanda, but because of me. Someone thing that I've really tried to do with my episodes is to approach it from objective curiosity, which essentially means that instead of looking for it from like a personal standpoint of how it relates to me, just trying to reflect on, okay, like in general, from my community, from the people that I know I serve and I work for, what would they want to hear about? And what's the lesson for them? But this one I had just recently kind of come out of, I think it was around the time that I did the check-in video with Jared of just coming to this realization and parenting where I'm like, damn, it's so challenging because in my lived life

43:02as an adult, freedom and autonomy are just very big value systems of mine, letting people be who they are, not judging people or trying to correct or fix them. And then here I am in this parenting role with the people that I want to give the best of me to, who I feel like often have to get the most like naggy, often negative, fearful part of me. And it can be very challenging at times. So when Dewanda was talking about the value system in her marriage of just giving your best to the relationship and not giving your best to the outside world and then giving your worst to your home and intimate environment, but making sure that you're also trying to present and give that fun, lighthearted self or side of yourself at home. Interestingly, anybody who has kids too, people will always say this to you that like, oh, like, you know, when I have your kids, if you have a grandparent or something, like, well, when we watch them,

44:03they're so nice or so well behaved, it's when you're around that we see the tantrums and we see those lesser glossy parts of their personality. And even if they go to school, sometimes you'll talk to the school about some of the behaviors you're seeing at home from your child and the school will be like, oh, we don't actually see that at all. Like, we don't know what you're talking about. My parents used to frame that when my sister had kids at least like, oh, it's because they know they can get away with a lot around the parents. They just don't even try to be, you know, a put together version themselves. I now see that differently. I see it like, you feel safe enough to be yourself. You feel safe enough not to be in performance mode. You know, when we're in the real world, when everybody asks us how we're doing, we say, great, good. When our partner is someone close to us or a best friend asks us, we say, struggling, tired, hard, depleted, confused, hurt, processing, right? We give those rich responses. And in my kids' way, them throwing tantrums

45:04or coming home with big feelings, being very defiant, that is their way of showing me that they feel safe with me. But sometimes an excess of that safety can be draining. And you kind of partially wonder, like, damn, you can't, can't pull it together for mom sometimes. So anyways, when DeWanda said that, it just came to a very personal place for me. And then I felt later on, like I may have ruined the interview. Like, I might have taken it off course to where she wanted to go, based on where I wanted to go. And I was just like, damn, I was so looking forward to talking to her and learning from her. I hope that I didn't ruin my shot. But I watched it back and I liked it. I thought it was actually measured and it was a good collaborative effort. And, you know, she brought a lot of perspective. And it was very helpful to me. And obviously, that conversation with her mom at the end was such a treat. All of it was just a helpful illuminator for me. Actually, interestingly, I'll say this, that I had these Airbnb dinners

46:09that I got to host. So for about 40 people who follow me and who support me, I got to have them for dinner and give them this amazing experience. And then they could bring a date if they wanted to. Now, some people who came to this dinner have been following me since those girls are wild, which is she damn near 15 years ago at this point. So these are people who've been on my journey for a long time. Some people are part of my lover's community. So I have more of an intimate knowing of them. I know about their relationship, even if their partners know much about me. So there's a lot of interesting dynamics at play. And you're in an environment where there's lots of couples you're having conversations around intimacy stuff is going to come up, right? So they were just a number of couples who had stuff come up. And I was very grateful again to have the trust of people to show me that side not to try to pretend to be perfect couples, but for them to be like, oh, it's Shane, like we can let her know, like this is a struggle we're having right now. We're like, we just got into fight on the way here. So anyways, after the dinners, I was like so happy to

47:14met people that I was like, let's go on a hike on Saturday, which is actually Valentine's Day. Let's just like go all together and do something less formal. So we all went on this hike and I was chatting with one person in particular who got into a really big fight with their partner at the dinner. And he was like, I just really struggle with my partner because they're extremely emotional and very sensitive where I'm more of a water off a ducts back kind of guy. She just takes everything very personal and you never know what's going to set her off. So while this is happening, my kids are here on this hike, right? And I love bringing my kids to anything that I possibly can. And so if I'm going to organize something, my kids are going to be there. So my kids are on this hike and Ryu in particular, who is my deeply feeling kid. That's what they call them in at least Dr. Becky's community that I'm a part of. So Ryu is my deeply feeling kid and when she's feeling good though, she's feeling very good. So she's like at the front, she's got a stick. She's guiding everybody. She's making people do Simon Says. She's pointing stuff out like I'm not even actually

48:14with her. I'm at the back chatting with people. She's at the front leading the group. So she has a stick in her hand and eventually what happens is she hits her sister in the face with a stick. And then Ryu, I mean, Zaya is hurt obviously. So people are going to comfort her. I rush over it and I'm comforting her. And so everyone's comforting Zaya. Ryu acknowledges that Zaya's hurt because of her. And then she goes into a big guilt spiral. And then that's it. Like when she's decided she's having a meltdown, she's melting down. And I have kind of come to learn that when Ryu is having moments like that, rather than trying to get her to like turn it around, you literally have to stop what you're doing. Pull her to the side and give her whatever time she needs to reset. So that's what I do. I like remove myself from the group. And then myself, Ryu and Zaya are like on this other overlook pass. People are coming to me like, hey, we're trying to go. Are we this? Are we that? I'm like, you guys do your own thing. Like I actually have to wait here for as long as it needs to take for Ryu to turn it around on her own terms. Because I just come to learn that about her.

49:17And then eventually she does. And she's ready to go back down. And then she reinteracts with the group and life goes on. So that was just a reflection point for me too. And I was mentioning that to the guy who was telling me about his partner that sometimes it is that acknowledgement of just the way that somebody is. And then going back to the conversation with Dewanda, you have to acknowledge if that's something that you can carry. If you have the patience to go through that process with somebody, that's what they require. Some people don't require that. I personally don't require that, especially if I'm in a public setting. You could pretty much do anything to me. And I will be able to pretend nothing happened. And then I'll process something later. That's just not how everybody is. And I'm not even saying that's even a great way to be because sometimes you actually forget the genuine authentic experience that you felt because you didn't even revisit it till hours sometimes stays later. So yeah, I think that that experience in general, this episode in general just allowed me to just open my heart a little bit more, like a little bit more every time

50:21that I guess I have these conversations, your walls come down a little bit where you're you just and you meet people where they're at. There's something there's this constant weird conundrum with intimacy that I talk about a lot between the gift of relationships being an opportunity for achievement. And our relational partners are closest intimate partners have the biggest impact on our life. Birds of a feather flock together, right? We can change and we do change. And intimacy is the way in which people are most likely to evolve. And yet genuine intimate relationships shouldn't be asking you to evolve. Genuine good relationships shouldn't be demanding that you grow or become something different. They should be creating space for you, witnessing you, supporting you, being curious about you. And as a parent, I feel like that struggle is like a billion fold. And I'm trying to find my way on it. And I'm just grateful for guides like Dewanda and Dewanda's amazing mom, Margie, you know, who make the path a little bit lighter. I can end on that. That's

51:25kind of a bar. Have a great week, guys. If you haven't read and reviewed the podcast, I actually do feel like some people recently did because I've been going back for a few weeks and being like oh man, nobody's doing it. But I do feel like some people did. Let's see if I can find a few. Yeah, it's still three months ago. Is that right? Nobody has rated this podcast in three months. That's crazy, guys. It's not working. That's okay. You just got to keep at it. If you haven't rated the broadcast yet on Apple or on Spotify, you can actually go to the show, click it, go down to rate and review and then rate and then write something. It can be an episode review, it can be a high, it can be a joke that you want me to say aloud. You can promote your business and I'll say it aloud. But yeah, that would be really helpful if you did that. Okay, now I'm done for real. Bye. Sales and distribution of lovers by Shan is by Lemonada Media. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the perfect time. You can listen to lovers by Shan completely

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