Anthropic Says AI Model Claude Being Misused for Weapons Research

0:00Get essential news on the people and companies pushing the tech sector to new frontiers. Hi, I'm Ed Ludlow, join me for Bloomberg Tech, a daily podcast focused exclusively on technology, innovation and the future of business. Every weekday we bring you the latest insights on Silicon Valley's top companies and conversations with tech's biggest decision makers. Listen to Bloomberg Tech on your commute home and stay ahead of the news cycle. Subscribe today on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you listen. Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts, Radio, News You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5 p.m. Eastern. On Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube. A big story proceeded throughout the week here has been anxiety over artificial intelligence.

1:00There's a number of companies in recent weeks have allowed in posts and reports that there have been moments when their technology was not operating the way that it was supposed to and that sparked a lot of kind of fears about, let's just say, apocalyptic fears about what this technology could do. We heard from the CEO of Bridgewater on the Adlots podcast Greg Jensen. He talked about what it might take here, excuse me, the CIO of Bridgewater. Greg Jensen, talking a bit about what it will take for Americans and for policymakers to wake up to the threats of this technology. Unfortunately, this is like what it was like in February 2020 until the AI starts killing people. Unfortunately, history would suggest we're not going to do anything. But we are going to face that. That's going to happen and it'd be much better if we started dealing with it. Before then, and you can do it. It's also not hopeless. All right. To guide us through this hopelessness, we've got Mike Shepherd, Bloomberg Senior Editor for Technology and Strategic Injuries.

2:01Industries, excuse me. Mike, what is the deal here? Because we've got some mixed messaging. You have some big warning signs going up from employees, former employees, experts. But then you have a top Pentagon official kind of pushing back against these rising fears and saying, we can handle this. We have guardrails. We know what we're doing. Where is the truth and is it somewhere in the middle? I think we're still trying to find that truth. And everybody is trying to make sense, Christina, of where the conversation on AI and AI risks is ultimately going to take us. We heard from Greg Jensen earlier saying that there really might have to be even catastrophic loss of life to impel Congress or other policymakers to take steps to really address these risks fully. And it's a dire sounding warning. And yet we also hear on the other side of the debate. The administration here in Washington really dismissing many of those concerns.

3:02The senior Pentagon official, just yesterday, Emil Michael, who has led negotiations with Anthropic over safeguards a company wanted on military use of its tools and really fought against those extra terms that Anthropic had sought. He said yesterday, look, a lot of this doom saying is just talk. He was dismissive of it. And he said that the free market and that industry-wide collaboration will work to mitigate a lot of the perils that people have been talking about. Mike, I know we want to ask you about Jacob Cox and Twitter thread, which really gained a lot of steam over the course this week. He a former employee of OpenAI and Anthropic. But let me just ask you a bit more about the report that we've been talking about here that Anthropic released. And just to quote a little bit from it, I think the headline is over the past eight months, our threat intelligence team identified and disrupted operations in which threat actors tried to use Claude from malicious activity. Put that into some context here. Because as I mentioned at the top of the show, Mike, it does seem like there has been a steady drip here of admissions for lack of a better word from these companies that the horse is more out of the barn than I think they in a lot of this thought.

4:10And that is a good way to put it really because we have seen reports from companies not only Anthropic, but also OpenAI disclosing rather transparently look. Some of this technology has escaped beyond our control. And we can think of the recent hack on hugging face by some models being developed by OpenAI that were in a secure testing environment that had their guard rails removed. But the models acted on their own communicating with other AI agents being developed by OpenAI. And they escaped that secure testing environment and went on to hack hugging face. And in this case, there was no human in the loop, not only directing them, but really even present to stop them in the act. And that is the ultimate concern here that there could eventually be a super intelligence. And this is a warning from Silicon Valley and really the one that Jacob Coxon raised in his departure tweet from Anthropic that this kind of advanced intelligence in AI,

5:18beyond human control carries this enormous risk. And more specifically to Anthropics report, David, what they were highlighting are the very specific kinds of risks that we could see. And that is this technology could be used to enhance the use of missiles even by foreign adversaries. It could be used to craft bio weapons. It could be used to wage cyber attacks or launch disinformation campaigns. And they went through chapter and verse some of the examples that they had seen already out in the real world about misuse of Anthropics technology. It seems to me what's really driving this kind of without top down safeguards is this battle with China, right? Once China became really competitive in this field, the argument from a lot of AI supporters is, look, if we don't do this, if we slow ourselves down and put guard rails about it and you know, sit and think about how we should best utilize this technology, China is going to go full speed ahead and they were going to be behind. How is the industry, how are observers, how are people like you looking at that balance and where we're going to come out?

6:22Well, that is certainly one of the arguments that the top industry developers, including open AI and Anthropic have made when confronted with the challenge. Well, look, this technology is so powerful. Should we slow the role part of the answer back has been, look, we need to get there first because we are the only ones who can handle it, responsibly and safely. If we let heaven forbid an adversary like a company in China develop it ahead of us, we don't know what kind of guard rails could be put in place if any at all by a company or an entity back by an adversary like China. And that's an argument that we've heard Anthropics CEO Dario Amade make over and over again. And he has even barred his company's products from being used in China. And the China question is also one that President Donald Trump himself has raised when asked about whether there should be more guard rails in place and whether there is an existential risk latent somewhere in AI development.

7:23He was that question was put to him last night by our colleague Jeff Mason in Dallas as the president was preparing to return to Washington. And the president said no, I am not concerned about AI risk in an existential way, but he said I am concerned, however, about China somehow gaining on us. And he really stressed the importance of maintaining that lead over China in the context of course is that you know within weeks his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping will be here in Washington for a summit and AI will be at the top of the agenda there. All I certainly going to be on that meeting Mike Shepherd our senior editor for technology and strategic in industry. I don't seem to want to say the rest of your time today. I come so sorry. Always nice to see you industries. I can do it. I promise this is my job. Everything's going great. And Mike has such a good vantage on the way that this is kind of reverberating around Washington. He's seen it does feel like as we've all kind of woken up to this lawmakers have as well as something well worth following here in the weeks and months ahead. What about Rick Davis partner at Stone Court Capitol Bloomberg politics contributor and she and Zainar joining us as well. Democracy visiting fellow at the Harvard Kennedy Schools Ash Center. She also a Bloomberg politics contributor.

8:32Let me go to you first on this and pick up on what I was just saying there. There are a moment ago. It does seem more at a moment now where yes, investors are feeling a bit anxious about the state of this technology today and where it might be headed. I'm curious if you see it kind of changing the way that lawmakers and policy makers are talking about this technology we heard Mike Shepherd referencing a meal Michael the Pentagon official there just a moment ago. He he cautioning us to kind of keep a level head here and not not become kind of dooms when we look at AI. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. Shepherds comments about this being focused on the technology because in Washington it is a technology discussion. Yeah, you have a lot of members really trying to grapple with what the unique economics societal and security threats are to this incredible technology. But when you get outside the beltway and you don't have to get very far outside the beltway because Virginia is one of the largest if not the largest data center.

9:32locations in the country and it's all about data center you don't see in a political discussion the potential impacts of AI on our society or on our on our security. But you do hear an enormous amount and it is a growing chorus of concerns about the impact of the data center water energy and other features on the communities that are supporting this technology. And so on one hand you get outside the beltway it's a data center debate on the other hand you get inside the city of New York or Washington and you're hearing all about concerns about a AI technology without bumpers. And it's become a really interesting kind of sleeper issue that we're now starting to see come to fruition ahead of the midterms because obviously these politicians want to show that they're creating jobs. They're creating growth that there's opportunity here for big investments for blue collar workers to build these data centers. But more and more polls are showing people don't really want these and they certainly don't want them in their community.

10:34There's new Reuters Ipsos poll that shows 45% of those asked said they don't want these data centers in their community. But 59% don't want it within 10 miles of their home. Jeannie what does that tell you and if you were running for your seat again in November how would you navigate this. First of all I can I just thank you guys that last hour particularly when you had Lisa and Charlie on with those memories of 911 was riveting I had to message Charlie and tell him how moved I was by his comments it was just riveting. In terms of the data centers yeah this has been the sleeper issue of the campaign and I think it's caught many Republicans on the back foot you know you had as you mentioned Christina you had you know Donald Trump coming out with a full-throated embrace of data centers. I'm talking about the innovation talking about the monetary benefits but the American public and I think this is not just about data centers by the way.

11:37I think it's a proxy for all kinds of concern about everything tech writ large in our lives from billionaire tech people to flock cameras to data centers to a.i.i.e. what you were just talking to Mike about people are so frustrated and so concerned about what this means for them and data centers coming in your neighborhood or Christina as you mentioned 10 miles down the road that's something that people can stand up and say you know what we've had enough. And so that's why we've seen Republicans at the local and state level like governor to Santhus or like governor Abbott and a little late to the game you see Ken Paxton coming out and saying you know what we're going to take a step back from this because they know how wildly unpopular this is with their constituents 60 60 days out of the midterm. Rick I want to spend a few minutes here talking about this midterm convention that that just took place and you know I can imagine that Susie Wiles and others told the president look focus on these kitchen table issues which are clearly so important to so many Americans maybe try to cater more to independence a broader that go broader than just the base I'm looking in my inbox here and a press release just came through from NBC news and Christine Romans evidently had an interview with with Howard Lutton at the Commerce Secretary who told her this $5,000 Trump dividend as it's been branded quote.

12:57It's not tax money. He said the administration could earn the money that Donald Trump wants to pay out not from the deficit and not from taxpayers what do you make it I mean this is that this is the headline from this two day event now people are talking about this and it's one of these moments where it seems as though the president very easily could have just thrown this out and now you have the whole pan up leave advisers to him kind of bending over backwards to make it seem like a real live issue even when we know that it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible for this administration to to put forward. Yeah David I think what's the most curious thing about this is as you point out it's the number one policy item that Donald Trump put on the table for here's what I'm going to do for you in the future except not one single other speaker a hundred other speakers did not mention it a bit. And so you would think you wouldn't want it echoed through the two days of the convention let's lay out this great policy we're going to have this massive stimulus go into the country 1.3 trillion dollars worth of funds to the American people and nobody mentioned it now 48 hours after the ideas surfaced you've got cabinet members kind of you know circling the wagons trying to figure out okay how are we going to pay for this and what are we going to do I would say the one thing that I would worry about the money that I would worry about.

14:14If I were inside the political 10 of the White House right now is are we losing our credibility with voters because it's one thing to throw these ideas out it's one thing to demagogue and that has a lot of value sometimes in the political equation. But if you do too much of it you lose the credibility you have with voters and then nothing you say they'll listen to and that is I think very close to being one of the net effects of this convention is a credibility loss. Do you think Democrats are capitalizing on that enough I mean it strikes me that the only real counter programming they had to this Republican midterm Trump a Paloza convention whatever it was was you know they did have former president Obama meeting in New York with the speaker of the House but is that enough we live a few seconds here. Presumptive speaker of the House as opposed to Democrats win excuse me. Presumptive I came Jeffries the following is the following thank you David it's okay Kristina we like it you know I don't think they should be counter program it's

15:16tell you the truth I keep saying the more eyeballs on Donald Trump that's one thing Democrats and Donald Trump agree with the more Donald Trump you have the more this is a referendum on Donald Trump and the more you're going to get very angry Democrats and some independence of moderates to go out and vote democratic. So they were very very happy with this in fact I think Christina they'd like another midterm convention now I don't think you guys would but they'd like another one because they think this has gone arrived for the Republicans they feel the president is desperate to get out the vote when he's got to offer $5,000 and even Laura Ingraham is saying on Fox you've got the money why don't you give it now why wait till after the the midterm because it's a quid pro quo he wants to deny that now but of course that's what it is. So Democrats very happy about this turn of events I should say. She great to speak with you as always. She and Zeno the Harvard Kennedy School Bloomberg politics contributor Rick Davis joining us as well partner at Stone Court Capitol Bloomberg politics contributor as well we're going to speak to one of Chinese colleagues here in a little while Nick Burns the former ambassador to NATO from Ambassador to Beijing going to join us here with his memories of what happened on 9-11 25 years ago today.

16:23Stay with us on balance of power will have much more coming up after this. Hi I'm David Weston join me every week for the Wall Street week podcast to hear stories of capitalism from around the world from geopolitical tensions and central bank decisions to artificial intelligence energy and infrastructure we sit down with the CEOs economist policy makers and thought leaders whose decisions are shaping markets everywhere we find them subscribe to the Wall Street week podcast on Apple Spotify or any where you listen. You're listening to the Bloomberg balance of power podcast catch us live weekdays at noon and 5 p.m. Eastern on apple car play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg business app you can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station just say Alexa played Bloomberg 1130. Welcome back to balance of power it's Christina refini and David Gerr in for Joe Matthew and Kayley lines of course today it is 25 years since the attacks of September 11th we're watching live pictures of the memorial in lower Manhattan as we listened last couple hours to those many many names read by family members at the memorials here we're also expecting a ceremony in Shanksville Pennsylvania for flight 93 and we have heard the president speak at the Pentagon earlier today although Joe

17:49is not with us today he's with us in spirit and we do want to play some sound from an interview he did with the U.S. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik on what the U.S. is like with the security situation how America's safety has changed in the 25 years since those attacks take a listen. America is by far safer now we think about things we study things you know being a part of the government you know with a very high security clearance I get to read all the time and our adversaries wish that is ill made no mistake about it they wish us ill but we are smart we are thoughtful and we are capable and what actually hurts me the most is when I see people running for office in America who hate America you know like say something like America deserved it I mean how horrible to suggest that my brother and all my friends who were living the American dream and just came to work that day for someone to say that we the great America living the American dream deserve anything we deserve happiness prosperity in the pursuit of the American dream that's who we are that's who we've always been and people

19:00who are jealous of us don't deserve airtime and I wish they didn't get well what would be your message to young people who were not alive then this is something that they've read about that they've heard about and there's some very troubling conversations that we hear in high schools and on college campuses about this what do you tell people who were not alive on 9 11 who do not realize what a big deal that was for the history of this country the American dream lives inside of each of us it's part of our DNA and our heritage to who we are and who we become and the rest of the world just does not have that entrepreneurship the energy the vision that I can be born and I could be the president of the United States America anybody can and they are and so what I would say to them is you have inside of you the American dream and if other people are jealous and other people are nasty and other people hate you and jihadists want to kill you the fact is the beauty of America is the American dream and you should always protect it defend it and love it because it's inside of each of us and it makes us what we are which is great and special

20:15the commerce secretary Howard Lutner there and like to excuse me in conversation with our college of Matthew at the University of North Carolina a few days ago talking about the legacy of 9 11 of course he suffered so much personal tragedy in those attacks including losing his brother as he alluded to in those comments just a few moments ago I want to bring now Brigadier General Leland Blanchard the second he's the interim commanding general of the District Columbia National Guard joining us now great to have you with us and you heard the commerce secretary there say unequivocally the US is safer now than it was before and I wanted to put that same question to you if I'm not mistaken you were an officer in in Fort Benning Georgia on the day of those attacks and it certainly shaped your your life significantly after those attacks took place do you agree are we safer now than we were on September the 11th Well I think we are certainly safer but I also acknowledge that the threat continues to evolve it's always something that we got to continue to work to stay ahead of and so I agree we are definitely safer I think we're certainly more aware of the day of the dangers out there in the world but it is something that we've got to continually fight and address and stay ahead of

21:21I do want to ask you in your background and your current mission one of the things that we really saw after 9 11 was the militarization of police departments and not just in big cities like DC New York Atlanta but you know smaller cities smaller towns getting armored vehicles getting prepared for potential terrorism attacks and it became a self-fulfilling thing where you had these police departments looking more and more like militaries has there been a pullback of that do you think some of that went too far and do these police departments always know or have the best ability to utilize some of this equipment or is there a point where they should turn to the national guard turn to the military and stop well I think it's going to be up to those individual departments right I mean that that varies so much and it's the responsibility those leaders to ensure that every one of their officers and I know they work hard to make sure that they're current that they have the best equipment possible it's their responsibility and it's a tremendous responsibility when you're the sheriff or the police chief of a town or a city to ensure that everyone is secure and safe and I think as we continue to move forward and acknowledge those challenges again the world continues to evolve

22:28the national guard is always ready to participate to be a great partner and where those efforts combined and we're able to support and link up and work together I think there's great benefit for that and again I love the collaboration that we see and any opportunity to keep our communities safe and our citizens and visitors safe we're going to do that. I want to talk about your current mission here in just a moment but let me ask you before we get there just about the way the events of September the 11th changed cities the configuration of cities and you're in Washington today it looks radically different I think you can navigate it differently than you did before September the 11th could you meditate on that just a little bit here the way that we've kind of seen this trade off between yes personal liberties access to buildings access to places and the need for there to be more heightened security in cities around this country. Yeah so that's a you know it's interesting I heard the secretary kind of address of how do you explain it to people who weren't maybe alive at that time and I think it's a it's a balance right and so you want to make sure that you have all of your liberties that are guaranteed under the Constitution you know that's what we in the military and I know law enforcement officers you raise your right hand and swear allegiance to that you want to have that balance where you're able to do that but you also acknowledge that there's a threat out there and it's our job collective.

23:51I think it's incredibly to get after that to ensure that that our children are able to start a school year and finish the school year in a safe environment that is an ongoing challenge and I think it's as you look back over the last 25 years and I know for me as I reflect on how how different the world has changed that was such a seminal event for me it is change and impacted everything that I do the way I do it but how do you pass that along to future generations and let them know what what we've had to maybe give up a little bit here and there to make sure that we maintain that balance and that they don't forget you know what it takes to secure those liberties. General I do want to ask you about your current mandate we just saw the order for the National Garden DC has been extended to January 2029 but look I lived in the city 17 years I've been there for the good the bad and the in between and when you look at where we see the National Guardsmen the most. Where we come into contact with them the most they're in the Metro they're the Georgetown Water Park there at places the administration is likely to see you but they're not always in the places where the city says they need help what exactly is your mission and why do you need longer to accomplish it.

25:07Well I would tell you that were everywhere so if you go to word seven word eight were there whether your Columbia Heights or over in an Acastia I encourage people to get out and about in the city. Certainly we are going to be where there are large crowds but mostly what we're doing is we're working in coordination at the requests of our MPD our federal agency partners so that we can fill in where they need us that's that's our role is to provide support a lot of capacity filling those gaps that they may have particularly in large events. So what are the rules of engagement if somebody grabs my shopping bag are your are your guys allowed to intervene do they have body cameras what are the rules on using firearms. So so words have meaning so we don't operate under rules of engagement we operate under the rules for the use of force just like you know so has been provided to us through the Department of Justice again in collaboration with the law enforcement agencies but absolutely so our soldiers in airmen out on the street are deputated by the law enforcement agencies.

26:07But absolutely so our soldiers and airmen out on the street are deputats of special deputy US marshals they have the authority that is needed to operate but again we're here to support local and federal law enforcement agencies but absolutely if someone is committing a crime like that where someone is at risk because it can quickly escalate from stealing a bag to physically assaulting someone so they're going to place themselves in their de escalate for a while so you're asking me to move that one person to stop and go on the other way. themselves in their deescalate that situation and again work call local law enforcement get people moving but absolutely they will intervene in that situation. We got about a minute left I asked you how the landscape has changed in a lot of cities I will say visiting DC that it looks different to see National Guardsmen and women around DC and I know a criticism is this is kind of a kind of martial law most it's not what we're used to to see how do you respond to that in the minute we have left. Yeah I would just say go out and visit talk to the soldiers and airmen out on the streets I hear that occasionally but I also get the hugs when I'm out visiting I try to visit

27:09every single day with our soldiers and airmen out there the comments that I get particularly in some of the neighborhoods where resources haven't been readily available over the years they're very welcoming I get a lot of hugs a lot of comments and you know it again it represents a significant investment into the security and safety of every neighborhood and I think for the most part residents are happy with that I understand how everyone is going to be but as we as we move forward I continue to just tell people engage those airmen and soldiers out there and ask them why they serve why they're here you might be surprised how close they are to your perspective. All right Brigadier General Leland Blanchard the second he is the interim commanding general of District of Columbia National Guard thank you so much for joining us today. Stay with us on balance of power we'll have much more coming up after this. A new chapter in global growth is being written and much of it is happening in Africa. Africa needs to invest there are deals to be done and

28:12business to be won. I'm Jennifer's Abbasajah every week on the next Africa podcast we track capital flows and political shifts shaping the continent's future. The digitalization of Africa is going to power its growth ridding the world of something like HIV is possible. Opulation growth is so enormous in Africa. Listen to next Africa on Apple's Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the Bloomberg balance of power podcast catches live weekdays at noon and 5 p.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube. I am Christina Feeney here with David Gerai in for Joe and Kaley say on balance of power and David we've been talking a lot about 9-11 what it did to the country what it did to the world but now we're going to focus a little bit on how it altered geopolitics. Yes our next guest spent August 2001 packing up the ambassador's apartment in Athens getting ready for a move to Brussels Nick Burns moved there to be the US

29:12ambassador to NATO and got there 12 days I believe before the events of September the 11th he is now professor of the practice of diplomacy at the Harvard Kennedy School and joins us now Ambassador Burns great to have you with us once again and I wonder if you could take us back to that day we've been reminiscing over the course of these last two hours about the events of a quarter century ago how did you see what was unfolding and indeed what happened in the hours that followed David it was obviously a catastrophic day for our country and for people around the world and and in our headquarters we couldn't reach Washington for several hours because the White House had been evacuated the State Department of Pentagon evacuated the Pentagon attacked and so my combined military and up my staff was trying to figure out what can we do to help the home front and my phone right and it was David Wright the Canadian ambassador and he was the senior ambassador at NATO the longest serving and he said Nick I think we can invoke article five of the NATO treaty an attack on one shall be considered an attack on all it had never been invoked in NATO

30:14history we hadn't had a war in Europe since the second world war and boy was at a shot in the arm and within hours I received calls from the Danish ambassador the German Italian Spanish ambassadors the British ambassador they were all with us and by the next morning we were ready to invoke article five it's unanimous vote of NATO if one country a dissented it wouldn't have occurred and I I called back to Connellyza Rice who was a close friend she was the national security adviser and she gave me the president's personal authority at four in the morning in Washington to vote for this and I'll never forget what she said she said look before you vote one more thing I said what's that she said it's good to have friends in the world and I think we all felt that when the American people woke up on the 12th of September we had NATO, Canada all the Europeans ready to go into battle with us they all did go into battle in Afghanistan and most of them into Iraq subsequently so you know if

31:14reflected on this longtime David and Christine I was ambassador in China the Chinese don't have any allies who will go to bat for them the Russians don't but we do and so I think we should deeply value respect our allies that's the lesson I learned on 9-11. Ambassador that's so interesting me I actually didn't know I had assumed the US had asked to invoke article five I didn't realize the idea had come from other allies themselves to trigger that clause I did want to ask you as we were talking about having you on and all the different things we wanted to speak about when it comes to article five you know you talk so much about how important it was for the US to have allies the US has strained a lot of those relationships especially with Europe right now with Canada if the same circumstances were to present themselves again we talk so often about whether the US would hold up its end of article five do you think the Europeans the Canadians the other NATO members would be so ready to trigger that mutual defense treaty again given where those relationships are right now well that's a that's a very good question I would hope that God forbid we ever had another

32:20episode an attack on the United States like 9-11 and I hope we never ever do I would hope the allies of course would defend us I'm an American I would want our country to be defended but you know it goes both ways and the way NATO works it works on trust it works on mutual commitment so if we as Americans want to be able to call on our allies on a day like that then we need to be good to them and respect them and show that respect and build up NATO and I do think President Trump has not done that and I wish I hope he'll change course I hope he'll show greater respect for Canada what a great neighbor Canada is for all of us and it's painful to see this talk of a 51st state it's painful to see the talk that we should annex Greenland and now Iceland it doesn't make sense for us and boy I in my diplomatic career you know you need strength you need leverage we're so much stronger with our allies so I do think it works both ways if we

33:23show faith in them trust in them they'll show faith in us the Prime Minister of Canada Mark Carney getting ready to make a trip to Strouffsburg he's going to deliver a speech to the European Parliament ahead of Ursula von der Lines speech the following day for state of the EU speech and I was struck by something he said in advance of that Ambassador Burns he said it's my strong personal view that the international order will be rebuilt but it will be rebuilt out of Europe and I'm curious how you kind of look at these three polls the US Europe and Canada right now and that the way that that configuration that balance has shifted here in recent months you know I think the more another way to think about it and I think Prime Minister Carney's very smart guy and his speech was thought provoking the real threat to the democratic countries of the world is from Vladimir Putin trying to divide Europe again authoritarian east a democratic west the other big threat is China and I think it's incumbent on Canada and the European countries Japan South Korea and the United States to be

34:25working together we want to live in peace with those two big countries but we don't want to be run over by them we have to defend our values and so I think it would be a mistake frankly for us for the democratic world to divide now I certainly understand the frustrations of Canada another Canadian Prime Minister but I do hope that the United States will shift course and show allegiance to them because the threat from China long term the threat from Putin short term is pretty profound but given those rifts between America and many of its allies when you're going into a meeting like a meeting with the Chinese or a meeting with the Russians countries with a continuous leadership with long memories and with long strategy for military and diplomatic plans does that hurt the US even in the best negotiating stance does China does Russia know that will they capitalize on that in those meetings well Christina you're right in one sense you know if you're Xi Jinping had been in power since 2012 or Putin has been in power since

35:271999 there is one advantage they control everything they have ultimate power they can think strategically they can think several decades out democracies find it hard to do that because we alternate power we have elections but then again we wouldn't have any other way we happen to have friends and allies like on 9-11 who will go to bat for us that leverage that comes with allied powers is far greater than anything the the Soviet the Russians excuse me or the Chinese can muster so I recognize their tactical strength but I think strategically we in the democratic world have greater strength we're looking ahead to this visit by the Chinese president to to Washington DC and you have talked in the past about the three potential meetings these two leaders could have here in the months to come curious how you're thinking about that meeting what you think the administration's objective should should be here and and what would constitute a successful summit between these two leaders in Washington I think president trump and secretary best and are right to put economics you know

36:29first on the agenda we need a supply chain truce and we need a tear of truth with China it's been elusive I think i made David you and i've talked about this before they thought they were get it at the the the president's a may trip to Beijing they didn't I hope they get it in Washington on September 24 25 that would really buoy the american economy investors to know that neither side's going to change the tariffs schedule and neither side's going to withhold um rarer earths and other critical minerals and supplies from the global market that's first second I hope and president trump talked about this they're going to talk about AI from a national securities perspective shana and the us japan the the nato countries need to be together in limiting the influence of ai when it comes to weapons of master's instruction i think you know that when president biden had his last meeting with shesian ping november 2024 they agreed human being should remain in control of nuclear weapons not ai system so there has to be

37:31regulation in that respect and then finally i think ty one's a major issue uh i believe it's a mistake for president trump not to go forward with this major multi-billion dollar arm sale for ty one i think it shows weakness to the chinese leadership it hurts ty one it's in the american national interest to continue that those i think at least for me would be the three big issues uh for this meeting two two weeks hence what do you make of some of these reports that officials inside the ty one's government or inside you know their leadership apparatus are are so concerned about whether or not america would have its back or this conflict to erupt that they are considering capitulation to china at this point i don't give much credence to that um there's a lot of it's a it's a new but democracy in ty one much like ours so there's a lot of noise a lot of conversation which is appropriate but the government the president and the cabinet i think they're all in on learning from what ukraine has done well to hold off the russians learning about anti-ship um weaponry drone

38:35offensive and defensive technology acquiring that which is the purpose of these arms sales by the united states what your hearing is from some of the opposition uh parties and one of them in particular the kmt which i think is more interested in getting along with basing then resisting a threaded force from basing i don't doubt though that the government of ty one wants to defend this you know it's 23 million people living in a very strong democracy americans should want to support that that type of of place could be closed by talking about aron the last time you and i spoke that memo of understanding was all but dead i think it was ripped up in the the days that followed um but we've looked at a stalemate since then uh and now you see the rhetoric from the iranian side the us side we've seen the huthis getting involved in in this conflict uh as they handed at the at the beginning and i'm curious sort of how you see the state of play uh and indeed if you see any kind of resolution here in the than your term horizon david i'm sorry to say i don't see a resolution anytime soon i think this is a this is a stalemate um i think the iranians believe

39:41that they are stronger will than we are i think we we should disappoint them in that they believe that we're going to give in first because of the mid to midterm elections and um i think at all costs the trump administration is correct in saying we cannot allow iran to be a tall keeper in the straight of hormones think of the disadvantages for the global economy and shipment of oil and other commodities that i think is is a is a goal preventing a run from from having that capacity that almost every country in the world can agree with on the other hand you know i think the war was a mistake uh we were wrong to go in but we are where we are i hope the trump administration succeeds in convincing the iranians to back down but i don't see that happening any time soon i would think the iranians would try to hold out beyond our midterms president trump has said he thinks they will and so this is going to be a very messy situation a diplomatic outcome in the

40:42short term i don't think it's in the cards unfortunately ambassador i hate to give you only about a minute to answer this up but i do want to ask you as we talk about soft power negotiating prowess is the state department even functioning right now to capacity and would you advise a young person to become a diplomat for america the state department is in in dire straits we've had too many of our senior officers fired by this administration forced out sidelined in the major negotiations christina with putin last week now there's no foreign service officer in the room on iran no foreign service officers who know the iranians well in the room with steve wickoff and jerry kushner i think it's really a shame that they're being sidelined i do teach students at harvard and i encourage them to go into the state department because a future president republican or democrat is going to want to rebuild our diplomatic strength and i i certainly want to encourage young americans to keep the faith that we need good strong diplomats to help defend the

41:42country after a long career in the diplomatic core he's now the royan barber gubernate family professor the practice diplomacy in our relations at the harvard kennis school nip burns always great to speak you thank you very much for engaging with us on a range of issues here as we look ahead again to that summit between president trump and president she taking place in washington in a couple weeks time and christina's safe to say there's a lot on that agenda we'll see sort of what floats to the top as it as an unfold i mean it's really going to be interesting a i a ron will come up oil prices energy all of the above and we'll see if ty one comes up or not it's something that uh... critics have said not been voiced as strongly as it should be in some of these rooms in previous meetings by this administration or thanks to you for joining us here on balance of power on bloomberg television bloomberg radio david gira christina rafini in for joe mathu and kaley lines on this friday afternoon coverage continues here across our many platforms bloomberg tv bloomberg radio bloomberg dot com and the bloomberg business app and we can and thanks for listening to the balance of power podcast make sure to subscribe if you have an already apple spot a fire wherever you get your podcasts and you can find us live every weekday

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