Angela Duckworth #3 (on bringing out your best)

0:00Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert experts on expert. Oh, my lord, top 10 favorite guests returning. I love when she's here. She's so fun to talk to you. You can hit her with any topic and she has data on it. Angela Duckworth. Angela is a psychologist, a MacArthur Fellow, and a best-selling author of, of course, Grit. She is the Rosalie and Eggbert Chang Professor at the University of Pennsylvania. Her new book, which is a fun counterpiece to Grit. Yes. I love this book so much. It's called Situated Find the People in Places that Bring Out Your Best. Please enjoy our friend Angela Duckworth. He's an outchance man. He's an outchance man. He's an outchance man. He's an outchance man. He's an outchance man. He's an outchance man. I'm getting comfortable. I'm going to take my time. I am.

1:00I think it's really comfortable. I think it's because we're small. How tall are you? I'm five feet and a half inch. I am five one. My god. I'm taller than you are? You're taller than me. Now, quickly, send your both barefoot, once you achieve that goal. I want you guys to stand back to back because I do think it's interesting what they think their height is. And I have found that I think when you get your license, whatever the tallest you ever were when you got your license, you just kind of meant that in your forever. Yeah. And it may no longer be. No longer be slash it might have not been a very accurate, right? I mean, guys all the time that are like, I'm this height. And I'm like, well, either I'm completely wrong or you're wrong. Because men really want to be tall. So I think they do a little. This is going to be a gender difference. You don't think the five footer, like if you're 4.11 and a half, you're saying five. I think girls do it too. I think that's true. Not as bad. Not as bad I agree. I think it's as much of an epidemic. Yeah. So I've measured myself many times because I also, she has a huge breath. She has a huge breath. Exactly.

2:00It's a brag because my wingspan is also exactly five feet in a half inch. It's a perlite of the Leonardo da Vinci. I am. I can't remember the name of that drawing. It's in my book. Yeah, the Suviess man. Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. Maybe a Suviess woman. Yeah. But you don't have scoliosis. So I just want you to know I'm a five four person in a five one body. Oh, ow. Yeah. I think you know that I am a five four person. Okay. You can interview me as a five four person. I think I'm a six foot person and a five foot body. But not because of scoliosis. That's just the way I think I'm just spiritually. Do you know who has savage scoliosis? Oh. You sing bull. Did you ever have you sing bulltongue? No, I would. Do any interviews, does he? And I've never heard of him. Maybe if we went to Jamaica, I think he's in Jamaica. Maybe you agree, interview. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. I would just stare at him. Oh my god. I never really got the whole skinny on what it was like to have Brad Pitt. But he was like, but then he was Brad Pitt. And I never got the answer to, okay, is he has dropped dead gorgeous in person?

3:02Yeah, he's beautiful. That's what Monica valued. He's beautiful. He's sweet. Like he's very nice. He's engaging. Playful. Yeah, I love him. Super present. Very present. I love him too. Oh, well. Don't be human. Don't be young. To be human is to love him. That's how we will eventually test AI for their human is. Yeah, like when Brad Pitt against you, like what would you do? It's been the same room as Brad Pitt. They'll never get it. You know, this is selfish probably, but I do judge a lot, especially men on how much they interact with me. Oh right. They're looking at me. Just to him? Yeah, just straight on to him and not really engaging with me at all. But not because you're a female, just because you're the other person. Because I'm the other person. Exactly. But women almost always engage with me. Oh, so for me, I'm only I say, hey, I was like, where's the gender thing coming? Go on, go on. That's great. This is so fun to talk about because I rarely get judgment of the men. Part of me is just like, I at least see the history, right? It's just like, oh, yeah, you're a dude.

4:02You don't know either of us, but I'm a man I'm talking on. I'm tall. I'm going to, you know, he's identified me as having status in the room. What are we? I'm just like dad also say, like, let's say that too. Yeah, that's a big deal. I am a little judgey. Occasionally we get women in who never look at Monica and those, I'm more curious about those people. And you're like minus seven. What are the experts? I just found out that this is an expert interview. Obviously, I'm not a celebrity, but I didn't know the rhythm. I didn't know that there were like, it's so I do it. I'm a little hurt by that to be honest with you. How could you not do that? I don't listen to podcasts. Wait, do you listen to podcasts? Yeah, Malcolm Gladwell's a revisionist history. You do? Oh my God, I love it more than anything. Minus one for not listening to podcasts. I don't know any podcast. That's fine. That's fair. That's fair. If you start just, it needs to be. I'm going to start here. But here's the grass is always greener. So Edward Norton's big complaint. I don't know how many times you've had a mom, maybe three or four times. Three. And we're friends and he's constantly like, I want to be what color do we do? Green. Oh, he wants to be an actor. He's like, I want to be a green because the celebrities are yeah, Laura.

5:03Yeah. It's just to keep it in the timeline. He wants to be green. Yeah. He's like dying to be green. He was green. He was green. Can he just be green on acting? Yeah. Well, he was. Last time he was here, we had him green. Edward Olivia Wilde on and it was the week of that movie. So she got yellow. Yellow or green. But he wanted yellow. And then the experts are mad. They're not yellow, you know, certain. He is green though. He has so much knowledge on everything, not just acting. He's like very, very knowledgeable. So I understand why he wants to be seen as. Yeah, yeah, he's the polymath square. Yeah. Have you ever met him or talked to him? Never met him. I have watched him. I'm sure he would love to meet. I like him. Yes. I like his work as they say. He's very work. You think? I do. What is the interest in him behavior? Everything. Are you asking him? I'm going to ask him. Yeah. Now, if he's going to be like, you need to know. I'll say it in a spot. I'll say it in a spot. Yeah. Do you know who Angela Duckworth is? This is like some kind of psychological. It is. For me, it's a psychological test for me.

6:04By the way, we're in an experiment right now. Did we not design way? Yeah, I decided to set it for. By the way, can I just thank you for reading my book? Thank you for reading my book. I put a blurb in your fucking book, of course. I did. I think I'm the second one that you've done, right? In general, let me tell you, because this will be fun for you. I think I've been asked many times. They always ask you to do a blurb for their book, and you haven't read it. They ask you before you've read it. I think it's a very awkward thing to be asked because it's like, well, I haven't read it. I don't know if I want to endorse this. I would have to do ethically and say, well, maybe let me read the book. I don't want to endorse something I don't like. I see what you're saying. You're like, please, and by the way, here I've written it for you. And you haven't even read the book. Exactly. And then even worse, I go, well, I would need to read it so that I really believe the thing. And then they give it to me. I don't like it. And then I have to call them. And so, you know, I don't like it, so I don't want to give a quote. Right. This is a testament to how confident I was in you that I was like, yeah, I probably will. Let me read it.

7:04Normally, I don't want to deal with that situation where if I read it, I don't like it. Here's a story. A young woman author who shall remain nameless, sent me an email. Maybe 15 years ago that said, I wrote this book and I'd like you to endorse it. And I've written the endorsement for you, which you can edit or not, right? And it did have an attachment, which was the book. So it wasn't like, I'll never show you the book. But I was on that day, in that moment, in my life, deeply offended. I wrote back. I didn't swear or anything. But I was like, you know, who are you? I was indignant. I expressed it. Oh, wow. Did you know who this person was? She was like, and acquaintance. Okay. Right? I'm so sorry. But I will tell you, it has haunted me for all those years. And like, a year ago, I was reading this novel called The Correspondent. Stop. Love it. Yeah. Love it. Did it crush you? No, everyone's obsessed. Did you read it? No, I haven't. Okay. That is in your future. Yeah, I've been through it. You have to read it. You have to read it. It's all told in letters. So it's all epistles.

8:04Like, there's no narrative. There's just letters that you read. Like, the correspondents. Like, correspondents. It's correspondents. And it's mostly the correspondents of the narrator. It's a novel. In the novel, there is this kind of like reckoning with your sins. And so that episode, where perhaps that young author was like out of step, because like, who asked somebody to like, oh, here's the bloat, right? But you know who was more out of step? I was out of step, because I was so mean. I was like, oh, she was devastated. So I reached out to her. Like, I found her. I was like, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no. She's there. And I found her. And she was like, you remember all these many years ago when you reached out for an endorsement and I was deeply offended. I was like, here's what I want to say. Who might be deeply offended? Somebody told you that you should do this. And I'm really sorry. Wow, that's great. She wrote me back in about six milliseconds. She was like, oh, my God, thank you. She's always. And is this the author of correspondents? It is not the author. But just the fact that it was... It was great closure. That's what I thought.

9:05Yeah. Yeah. It's Virginia, Evans. And we're actually, I don't think she would have done this. And also the correspondent was, I think, her first book. So she couldn't have done this because like, 15 years ago, so I knew before she wrote a book. And I can't remember these act narrative detail, but it's like a little bit of her redemption story. And I remember in the narrative, and maybe I'm a certain, that there was like a letter of kind of confession. And so this was like my letter of confession to this stranger. By the way, she's lovely. I'm not going to tell you who she is, but she's great. Has she found success? She's been successful. Oh, great. She wrote another book. Oh, great. She did not ask me to do this. Why? If she writes a third book, she could ask me. And I'd be like, yeah, before I read it, I wouldn't think. It's funny that you were offended. Would you not be offended? The part that offended you right is that she pre-wrote your blurb, right? Is that why it was offended? I was offended that she pre-wrote. Yeah. But as I said, I was wrong to be that offended. I should have been like offended like one out of 10. I was somehow like offended nine out of 10. She might have thought I'll take the load off. Yeah, she thought she was doing you a fan. 100%. I was the total jerk. Yeah.

10:05Yeah. That's why it haunted me for so many years. I can't believe it took me 15 years. Wow. Well, good for you. And now a public above me. And now a public apology. She was listening. I think it's so mean. So good for you. What if we've had her on the show? That'd be cool. I'm not going to tell you. Because that would be D and non-among. Mm-hmm. So it's been 10 years between roughly, yeah, grit and situated. Exactly 10. Exactly 10. That's auspicious. It's a round number. I think what's most fun is how you come to write this book. And I'm referencing the graduate student that reached out to you. Did you tell us that story? I got a critique by a graduate student named An India. He was not my student. He was a student at NYU. And he was pursuing sociology. I'm a psychologist. He was a budding sociologist. I was looking at the person. He was looking at the situation. As a budding sociologist, An India said, you're blaming effectively people for not being successful because they don't have grit because they're not trying hard. And you're ignoring the situations they're in.

11:05Whatever defensive reaction that I had, I did say I'm curious. Tell me more. And then he told me more. And I don't know very much about sociology. But I think what he was saying is correct, which is that when you don't think about a person in their situation as sort of two parts of a whole, then you lay blame at their feet undeservedly. And he was studying, essentially, people moving from lower socioeconomic status to higher socioeconomic status. I think he was absolutely correct to point that out. I have an email from him yesterday asking, he's like, I got tenure, but I still might need a letter of recommendation. If that is true, ever is the answer yes. And I said, if that is true, ever in the answer is yes. So we ended up collaborating. I don't know if it's collaboration, just staying in touch. James Flynn, who's a psychologist, was a psychologist, said that every great psychologist eventually becomes a sociologist. Because eventually you figure out that you can't understand human behavior unless you think about the situation. Well, again, it's a very alluring, and tempting endeavor to parse out everything into tiny little

12:09compartments and we'll study these things in silos. And it's easier to manage. But what you really lose sight of is that nothing is unrelated to the other thing. Right. It's an enormous soup. So the notion that you could even say one piece of it is what percentage of the person or nature versus all those binary boxes are for our convenience. They're not real. Right. And we had these little brains, honestly, right? And we're flesh and blood. So we have limits. But it's like so deep and so profound. You know, your camera has portrait mode. And everyone looks great in portrait mode. They look better, right? Because you come in in this like high definition. And then in portrait mode, the background is suppressed, gently blurred. And it turns out like that is how the human brain works. You always focus on the person. You know, you want to talk about Michael Phelps? You don't think like, where did he live? How close was the pool? Who was on the team? Tell me more about these. Orange coach. Who are his parents? Like, what did they do? I mean, you might eventually get there. Bill Gates, he goes to the only private school in America that has its own main frame. In a time where people are paying exorbitant amounts to be on a computer for a half hour,

13:12he had unlimited access. Right. He's Bill Gates, but also he needs that. And by the way, a great headmaster. I think I know that school. Is it California or Washington? Washington. It's like a elite private school. Yeah, but very special like the right ethos, I think. Yeah, right. And if I'm recalling the right conversation, the headmaster of the school that Bill Gates went to said that the job of adults is to watch with hawk-like concentration, but with childlike curiosity. What a young person is doing to see a little girl like twirling around and being like, how about gymnastics? So he was in a situation. I think the profundity of that that we go through life and we don't want to know who Dex Shepard is. When people Google you, they want to know about you. But the Googling is usually not like, tell me about everyone and everything around him. And if you did on Tuesday, I want to know why he did it because of what was going on. Usually they want to know why you did what you did on Tuesday because of you. It is because of you, but it's both. But nothing's really because of you. Nothing's only because of you. So we have this proclivity.

14:13I've been very aware of it lately, which is any character defect we have, any shittiness we have. We have an explanation that will originate in our childhood. Yeah. Well, my father went bankrupt 12 times. I was traumatized when I was five. Yes. And that's why I'm hyper vigilant and I overreact to this. Yeah. Now, everything great about me, I figured out how to do. Right. You never hear someone blame me. Any of their positive stuff on their context or their parents or anything. Yeah. But all the bad shit has a really clear explanation. Right. So that's a situation. So that's what you mean. The whole thing is all equal. And what I would say is everything is both. And yeah, we can edit out the situational details for our victories, but we shouldn't. The profundity, it's like almost philosophical. It's like, oh, yeah. And so therefore, if I want to succeed, I need to be in places and with people who make me successful. Okay, sure. But I do think it's deeper than that because when you're in a relationship with somebody and you understand them as everything they do say, feel, it is a function of who that person is, their character, their mindset, but it's also a function of like literally every trivial

15:18detail of their situation. It's like a figure ground shift. And if you can keep it, because again, I think our brain goes into portrait mode and it's like, okay, wait, back to DAX and his story. You know, if you can keep the backstory somehow in focus, then it is a more human and complete way to understand people. You know, in some ways, like these two books, right, 10 years apart, they are a set. I mean, one is about the inside game of how to not necessarily be only one self because I, as you know, don't believe in oneself, but I do believe that there are some selves we like more than others. And there is an inside game of like how to think. And the Buddhist actually have a lot to say about like how to think about the world, how to think about your goals. And there is an outside game. And this second book is about that outside game. It's like, okay, now I'm going to look around me. I'm not going to look in or I'm going to look out or I'm going to audit. Situational agency, which is this great concept you present. It can't be a trilogy because that's inside and outside. There's like nothing. Well, that's kind of it. How have I come up with another? Yeah, I tried. As much as I have enjoyed your previous work, I enjoy them for the way you've been doing

16:21the way you can struct them. I enjoy them for the anecdotes that are included. But you may or may not remember, my criticism of you has constantly been in the conumin narrative self versus experiential self. I think you're way too heavy handed with the narrative self. And I don't think you should be giving people tools necessarily to try to achieve all this greatness. Why? Because I don't think there's anything there when you reach it. Oh, I think it's a complete, it's a full, it's a full, it's a full, it's like I can get you there faster, but you'll get to nowhere. Guess what? Yeah. As soon as you become the CEO, guess what? You're going to be fucking miserable. Let me just break it down for you. Okay. But met them all. They're miserable. Okay. I know all the bills you missed. But I have a theory of happiness. And I don't think you're going to disagree. But maybe you will actually, right? So here's the thing about happiness. I want to say that you're right, that when you arrive at the destination of CEO or you arrive at the destination of like tenured professor or you arrive at the destination of like famous celebrity or author. Name it. Whatever, right? I don't say it loud enough. This is not happiness. You don't get there and feel happy.

17:23But here's why I think that is as a psychologist. We have emotions. The emotions are positive when we are approaching our goal. Not when we have arrived. And not when we arrived five minutes ago or five years ago, right? We're almost there. We're getting there. That's happiness. So then you could say, well, what's the prescriptive recommendation then? So if upon arrival you're disappointed, I don't know any other way to live. Look, why are you doing this? Although I agree with you that that sweet spot is like where it's, oh my god, I'm going to touch it. Yeah, exactly. If you could live there, that would be delightful. I don't think one can live there. No. I think the other way to happiness is to actually enjoy the process. Correct. And that is my life mission. That is what I want to say. But you know what? The process includes having a goal. So that's where I think we recently agree, right? No, I don't agree. You don't think the process has to have a goal. How else do you do it if you don't have a goal? I happen to live with an example. I'm not that way at all. I'm goal-er. You don't have any, okay, okay. I'm very goal-er. You're going to give like a counter example to you.

18:23The one anomaly in that goal oriented life is this show. We had no fucking goal other than we wanted to chat with people because we enjoyed chatting. That's process. I enjoy the activity. We didn't think it would make any money. We didn't think it would be huge. We enjoyed talking to people. So we started talking. So we started talking. Do you have any goals? Yes. It's changed so much. It started like that. But with success, a lot of other stuff came a lot of other goals. Distractions, I would say. I think we've had to keep finding our way back. You know what I think? I think this is a goal. I just took some... Yeah. Did it feel best right before it hit your lips? Yeah. The dopamine was released. Yeah, now I've already had this... Okay. You know what a goal is? A goal is a desired state of the world. If you want to tell me that for this podcast, it could be anything and you'd still love it, then I would concede some real estate here. But there are episodes that you like more than others and you have goals.

19:26You have a desired state of armchair expert. And therefore to me, that's a goal, that's ambition. It's not like a certain number of listeners. It's not necessarily an external validation. Already we're structuring as binary and that's already where we're fucked up. So it's not like you do have a goal or you don't have a goal. It's this spectrum of how goal driven you are and how process driven you are. And you're trying to slide this thing to where you have peace, right? And for me, peace is when I'm far further on the spectrum that's about process. You cannot be devoid of goal. That's what I'm suggesting. That's the only thing I want to say. Yeah. Because the process is the, you know, the journey is the destination, but without a destination there's no journey. That's the only thing, right? Maybe it's trivial to say that. Yeah. Again, I think we should reject that it's one or the other. I think it's just like this long spectrum. And my criticism of your stuff sometimes I'm like, it's too heavily on the side of the spectrum of like get the 4.0, get into the school. Right. Make that a wet point. Because guess what? You're writing them out. All the examples you have in your book, they're so fond. They're great. They're the people who reach their goals. And they've left out the 99% of competitors that did all that stuff and they didn't get

20:27to those goals. So is that trash? Okay. Let me process this because I think I think a good response is like not a great response. Let me say back what you're saying and make sure I understand it. You're like, love the work and slash butt. This isn't new. I said this to you last time. I have a terrible memory. That's okay. I got to go to my life. Reminded me. So what you're saying is in your own experience too, right? As somebody who has achieved some things and maybe you're surprised at whatever. You're not saying that human beings not have goals, but you're saying that when you spend all of your energy and when you put all of your chips on the goal mark and then you're not putting any of your attention, your energy, hang your hopes on the process, right? How to feel? Like, did you have fun today? How was that for you? That's a mistake. That's what you're saying, right? And when you like, annoyed the Michael Phelpses and you say like 28, you know, Olympic medals. Those are so inspiring. Yeah. But you're like, maybe you miss the most important part of the story, which is the process. If you are suffering to get to the goal and then guess what the goal upon achievement

21:29doesn't feel like it should, I say that's a bad fucking strategy of life. You know, I'm trying to curse less. That's not helping. Because you're in my situation right now. And wow, I'm going to drop the F-bomb. Yeah, yeah, you're invited to. Probably you're okay to drop the F-bomb with. Yeah, and I'm trying to be more like PG. Why? For what goal? I don't want to offend. Nobody that listens to the show as offended by swear words they could have never gotten as far. Yeah, that's true. They're not listening. All right, I don't know Michael Phelps, by the way. I wrote about Michael Phelps because I interviewed his coach and I studied his mom because I wanted to study his situation, right? I knew Michael Phelps was gritty. There's no better poster boy for grit than somebody who swims 365 days a year for 20 years. But I wanted to write about a situation. I want to use Michael Phelps and what little I know about his journey, which has not been unlinear trajectory necessarily, like yes, all the medals, but as you know. Massive depression, by the way, following it all. Substance used, right? Mental health issues. Mental health issues, right?

22:29Yes, I told you. I didn't interview him. And asphalt is his first language. He retired as you probably know. And then unretired, and he unretired before his last Olympics. And this I know from just talking to Bob Bowman so again, studying the situations of successful people. So Bob is his second father. So, Bob gets his text message whatever Michael wants to go out to dinner. He's like, okay, so, something's coming because Michael had retired. So, Bob was coaching, swimming, but he wasn't coaching Michael Phelps. to unretire. Bob's account is that he had come to a reckoning of why he wanted to swim and he had come to a different understanding of the goals. By the way, he still wants to win gold. He's going to do it. He wants to be the fastest in the water. I guess to your point, it was a shift in the motivation. And I do think I can't put words in his mouth. I can't say like he had a shift to the process versus the goal itself. That would be to lead because I'm not Michael Phelps and I can't guess. But I know what you mean. As somebody who's had some success in her own field too, I know what you mean about,

23:34you know, you get to Zanadu and there's no paradise. And the reason I think goals are important and you're right to like sing a lot on Michael Phelps, then it's just sort of at least imply that the reason why this person is noteworthy is because they got the goal and not because of the process. We're not horny for process. We are not horny for process. I can't say horny by the way. That's on my list of approved words. So there's this professor named Doshan Wang at Northwestern and he got really obsessed with fourth place finishers at the Olympics. And he had this hypothesis that when you're in fourth place, he gives you a lot of like motivational kick. And like if you place fourth, you get nothing. If you place third, you're on the podium. The third place where I was like, oh my god, I'm on the podium. Almost didn't get here. The silver medalist or like god, I was like so close to gold. But his question was not about the third place. He was like, what happens when you place forth? And so he was really obsessed with it. And basically, I'll tell you it's finding, but that's not the point. The finding is that the fourth place finishers actually do better than the third place finishers as like future unfold. But the thing that I want to say is he couldn't find the footage.

24:34He was a lot of research. I mean, he had to do a lot of work. So if you're not going to study Michael Phelps as a case study of someone who had a lot of grip, but also had a great situation and say you want to study the fourth place finisher and the 400 IM in the 2024 Olympics. You can hunt him down. You can like research them. I think you're right that if you only focus on the goal, you're chasing the morning dew, because when you get there, it'll be gone. But also, I think human beings will always chase goals. Four year olds will always make sandcastles. When I said like, I think this is a goal. I have a desired future state. That is to like raise this to my lips. That's a goal. Maybe it's so deep in my DNA that I can't get it out. It's that I think people are ambitious, even though you know that when you get to a certain rung in the ladder, it's not like anything changes. But we're always on a ladder. It's just the nature of human nature to be on a ladder. I don't think enjoying the process can happen unless you've achieved the goal. You have to have done the first. Or you're closing in the first. This is like chronological, right? Like first you get the goal.

25:37Then you realize, oh, it didn't really do the thing. Then you go back and then you're like, okay, exactly the Michael Phelps thing you're saying is he did it. He got it. And then after he's like, oh, I don't use that short way. But you're sort of like he had to go through that while I was right of passage. Yes. Okay. I started it and I didn't finish it. So I admitted that I am very goal oriented. I'm like you. And if I wasn't forced to live with someone who happens to be an example, I don't think I would believe it existed. I am a lucky product of this unique situation where I was in which is she never tried to get famous. She never tried to make a lot of money. She started singing and she has an obsession that she knows she thinks she can make this noise and she worked at it endlessly. And then she got it and she's a mimic. And then the place she could go do that was in the singing musical theater thing. And she loved being around all the people. And she's just really good at it. And she really just ended up in all these places without ever setting out to be in them. And it was through loving the process of

26:39the things she does. And so I've witnessed it. And I know it exists. And I think if I didn't live with her, I would reject that it exists. You'd be like I don't believe it. I don't buy it. I'm telling you I wouldn't believe it. I'm telling you. I wouldn't believe it. Also there's nothing worse than having no goals. I think you would agree. Yes. Like a state of apathy. A state of apathy. It's just like existential onks. Like on we I don't know where I'm going. Having a port of destination is a hell of lot better than being like I have no idea. I'm adrift is a pejor. Yeah. Yeah. We agree. That says it positively. Okay. We'd agree with that. Whatever level of commitment or however tightly you want to hang on to like this goal, this particular or even if you say I'm really all about process, right? I love how singing makes me feel. So I'm going to do it. And I'm not even quote-unquote going to see what happens. I'm literally just going to like do it. Yeah. I'm going to keep doing it. I still contend that the situation you're in is important because I don't know that everybody who is process oriented is equally happy, right? So regardless of where you fall on this as you say

27:42continuum, right? Of how goal directed am I versus how process directed I am. I think to me the reason why I nearly killed myself to write another book and the reason I say to you like I don't think there's another is this is the missing piece. And you know what, that's I wouldn't have written this book if somebody else had written it. I was hoping somebody else had for a general audience because you don't like the process of writing a book. It was not the funnest thing to do. Yeah. It was harrowing and I don't think I'm going to live as long because of the years I shaved off my life. But you know the reason why I don't think there's a book about this is that the inside game like oh you know your mindset I think it's more accessible. This is exactly what we don't think about. We are not aware of the water we're swimming in. We're just only aware of how hard we're swimming. So whether your process oriented primarily or goal oriented primarily or however you want to think about that I think you arrived to the same conclusion at least I do and you should be aware of where you are. I mean you are married to somebody you probably can't even imagine what it's like not to be but it's like a great fucking situation right. The only way I would have learned

28:46some of the things I've learned is being forced to witness someone live that way. Just to know that like there is another DAX like you know DAX has many selves but the DAX that you are in this relationship sounds I mean I'm so silly to be talking to you about your many selves because you're here and you could speak to yourselves. I can speak to myself like Angela Duckworth in this situation. I often have said that the universe rolls out its carpet for me. I'm extremely fortunate but if you say oh you've had some success which I'm fine I don't have to be falsely humble but I can tell you some of it was because I am an incredibly hard worker and a lot of it is that I have been mentored more than anybody I know. I get to work with really honestly the very best people in my business. You're like a writer at the New Yorker. Yes exactly. You go down the hall to bounce an idea of somebody and then when you see the writing product and then there's a byline all I want to say is that when people sign the bylines of their life narratives and there's one line and then you write your name on the cover of the book and you put your name on your CV. It's really you and your

29:48situation some of us have better situations so I've had an incredible situation but I think if you don't pause and say like everything that Dax is is partly because he's married to Chris and like you know it's because he's he's working with Monica. He has this producer. It's just that this silhouette that we want to cut out when I was little, not that little but teenage little, I would draw apples. Like I had this obsession with painting apples and I would always paint the apple on a white background partly because I never got to understand how to paint background which is its own skill but I have now dozens of these old watercolor paintings of apples and the apples are great but here's what I would say about this if I could you know go back to my like 18 year old self. It's fine to only paint apples on a white background many paintings are like that but if you see life and you see cutouts of people and you're not factoring in the situation I just think you misunderstand like why is that person doing this tell me more about this person and tell me more about everyone and everything around them that's the only question I would want to get asked.

30:49Right. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare we are supported by all state. Checking all state first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your teeth before walking into a meeting. You smiled at six people in the hallway. Confidently full teeth. You felt great about it until you caught your reflection and realized you'd been carrying a piece of spinach like an accessory sense lunch. Yeah. Checking first is a good idea. So check all state first for an auto quote. You could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with all state potential savings very subject to terms conditions and availability all state North American insurance company and affiliates North Brook Illinois. I want to go through part by part now. Okay. Great had a very psychological point of view. Yes. A very curious point of view. Human centric right and then through this conversation you start broadening your field. You're willing to consider that yeah

31:49social opening the aperture. I'm like listening to the sociologist who says like do this and we start the book with a story about you and your mom. Yeah. We can tell that story. I think there's a reason you started with that. So five or so years ago I'm in the Atlantic Ocean with my mom. Why is that we're snorkeling who takes their 86 year old mother snorkeling in the Atlantic in retrospect and the moment I hit the water I realized that was really the worst decision I had ever made. So I put my mom in a losing situation which is like we were in the Atlantic Ocean. We are not off the shore a little bit. We had taken a 45 minute boat ride. You're on an island originally. We were in Miami then we left Miami and then we like just went into the Atlantic for 45 minutes. So you know we could see land but 45 minutes five boat is like you're not swimming to shore. The winds are whipping that day. The current is heaving. The reason I knew that this was a tragic situation is that I could barely keep up. Basically if you don't fight the current you're getting swept behind the boat in the wrong direction of where you're supposed to be snorkeling. So my mom

32:51basically aspirates so she inhales water I think in whatever panic. So both lungs and you know the thing is you just rapidly lose consciousness. That's comforting actually. It's actually quite peaceful. Her memory she was like and then I just don't remember anything but she doesn't remember struggling. So I swim to her side. I realize that she's unconscious and I do what I've done my whole life which is I just try as hard as I can to swim or to safety. Why start your book with a harrowing story about your mom? To me the metaphor of the ocean it is your situation. It is everything and around you and you know what you can fight all you want. You can use willpower and grit but if you are in a losing situation your situation just like swallows your efforts whole that is the reason I started and you know happy ending the situation changed. I don't think I would have started it with the yeah like the downer of life and then my mom is yeah that would have been lots of problems that would have ensued. So I stopped trying harder. I mean my whole life I got

33:51everywhere by trying harder. It was the trick you depended on. The problem with having one trick. The problem with people who are really gritty is that that is the only trick they learn. They're like you know what I'm gonna wake up earlier because it would be shameful because we are humiliated and it's like the one pillar of your self-esteem gets like kicked out. So in that moment maybe out of just desperation and maybe when your physical circumstances are like that you don't have shame because you're just like oh wait this isn't working. So I stopped trying harder and I started treading water and I just tried to change the situation so I signaled for help. The snorkeling instructor of a nearby boat. Why our own snorkeling instructor did not like notice us that is a whole. I don't know. It's not a whole other story. It's just a mystery. But they came to our aid and then CPR ambulance. Longest boat right of your life back to shore. Boat right back you know my mom's like oozing blood like I don't know for work. It's a miracle. It was a was around Christmas. It was like Christmas miracle. She lived. The happy ending I think has a lesson and the lesson is that trying harder is not the only trick you

34:51can have. Grit is great but grit is not enough. It's sometimes the solution. It is sometimes the solution. Yeah. But who among us would not benefit from saying before I like kick as hard as I can and put my full-throated effort into whatever I'm doing? Who among us wouldn't benefit from like who's the best mentor I can have to like coach me on this like what's the best therapist? Who should I be collaborating with? How do I get a team around me? I guess that's for me personally why the revelation of the power of the situation was so fundamental because I had gotten so far on the inside game. I was ignoring all the things that do make a difference and maybe also because I was lucky. But you know there comes a time in life at least for me where luck and grit were not enough. Well grit is also an illusion of control. Same more what do you mean by that? Having grit makes you feel like I'm in control of the situation with my grit with my work ethic. I will eventually get what I want because I have this thing. That's not always true. Yes but it gets

35:57you so far. It gets you so far that you have all of this mileage where you're like it worked to them. You have the evidence right but at some point you're in a situation you're like oh I bet my limits like broadly true when people have something that works for them they do it more and like it does become the way that you survive the way you manage things. Yes. And as my physical therapist said what happens to people's bodies is that they have some compensation right? Like you know they're like kind of favoring their left hip because their right hip is weak and then that works and works and works until it doesn't and I think trying harder it worked until it didn't and I think only by life and that wasn't the incident that was more of a true parable. But professionally and personally I think I found myself not getting personally or professionally where I wanted to be through just trying harder so it was like the ocean currents just like finally slapped me in the face. Yeah. But I think because it worked for so long. Yeah. I was like doing it. Yes. Let's talk about Leon Mershond. Is that how I say his name? Embod Bowman. So Leon Mershond I think

37:01is a great example of what I want to cause situational agency. It's not that he didn't have a great situation but he had the agency the sense that he could improve a situation by his own choice right because I think situations can be coded as like that which you cannot control. Leon Mershond was swimming. He is the son of two Olympic swimmers. He was in Toulouse, France. He had a very good coach but it was the local organization. He knew that his situation could be improved because he knew that people like Michael Phelps were training on teams where everyone was trying to make the Olympics where there was not a small team but a large team of trainers and equipment managers and of course a coach like Bob Bowman. So he writes Bob Bowman in email and he says in so many words I'd like to come to Arizona State University moving from Toulouse, France to Tempe, Arizona, changing a culture, changing a team, changing his direct mentorship and also by the way and I know it sounds trivial but changing his physical situation so Arizona State University has a great setup

38:03for swimming like three outdoor pools. It rains 15 days in the entire year. Are they the number one college in swimming? I think it's UT Austin because that's where Bob Bowman now. Oh okay okay and I think that's not coincidence. So Bob says yes and Leon says yes because I think even after writing him that email there was some ambivalence and he sat down with his parents and they said don't overthink this go. So he moves and within two years he shaves like nearly nine seconds off of his best time in his best event which was the 400 individual medley right so 100 meters of each of the four major strokes in swimming. Within two years he shaves off that time and he shatters Michael Phelps' last standing world record and I'm not saying that because goals are important or that everybody needs to win an Olympic medal but I am saying that because I think if you try as hard as you can in a given situation it may not be the progress that you can see when you try as hard as you can in a better situation and you can use Leon as an example because it's the same

39:09person right it's the same person the same grit the same talent but he's changed his circumstances. Yeah it's the old adage like to get better you have to play people better than yourself. If he's the best swimmer in France try harder what how yeah I'm winning apparently in swimming and in many sports your Pacers who's in the lane with you like who's behind you the epilogue of the lay-on Martian study is not only did he break that world record the next Olympics which is to say the next Olympics under which he had been coached by among others Bob Bowman he won four gold medals and was the most individually decorated Olympian of the Paris Olympics and he has said that it was his situation. He says when you see a person swimming in the lane there couldn't be anything more solitary but what you don't see are all the people who are metaphorically in the lane with them. Yeah and all I want to say to people is a that is true and b you don't have to consider those as given that's the simple message. Break down the three box parable because I think this is fascinating and I think we're probably all would assume the order of events is different than the

40:11actual order of events so how do we even come to this whose concept is it and how did he prove that. This idea is very important I think you can understand all of human behavior we were talking about diction you talk about winning gold medals you can talk about painting any behavior you want to understand you can understand by reverse engineering it using three boxes and what I want to say is the third box is the behavior itself you're like why is that person doing what they're doing saying what they're saying feeling what they're feeling why are they like such a pain in the back or why are they showing up early staying late and trying so hard so behavior you can put in box three what's in box two behavior comes from your thoughts this to me is the cognitive revolution this to me is like modern psychotherapy when someone is depressed when they're eating too much when they're eating too little when they're trying hard when they're not trying hard there are thoughts that proceed those actions and feelings they may not be entirely conscious but they are what drive us and when you try to understand someone's behavior including your own you cannot understand it and sometimes this requires therapy without tracing them back to the thoughts that made that behavior

41:16rational okay so that's two boxes why is it called the three boxes model the first box is the situation you should ask yourself okay I had that thought where was I who was I with what were my circumstances because if you don't get that right then you only start working at box two or use willpower at box three like I'm just not going to be angry I'm just not going to drink I'm just not going to procrastinate I would say put yourself in a situation where you're going to have the thoughts you want then you're going to act the way you want because sometimes people are like I'm going to substitute this behavior with another behavior I'm like okay I'm going to take a walk instead of eating the afternoon that's not a bad idea but I would say what would be a situation where you would want to take a walk like put your sneakers by the door set a calendar reminder make it appointment with a friend set up a situation go to a location where you like the view yeah exactly like make it pleasant but the revolution is not mine you asked me where this model came from it's not my model so about halfway through my career I met this psychologist named James Gross he's at Stanford

42:16and he studies emotions and for a very long time James said people do a lot of things to regulate their anger or their sadness their anxiety it's just like a laundry list and he said you know what if you understand how emotions are generated then you can understand how they can be regulated you are in a certain situation that situation gives you certain thoughts those thoughts give you certain emotions that gives you a blueprint or a roadmap for how you can regulate those emotions because you can change your situation or you can change your thoughts or you can just directly change your emotions and his conclusion was before meeting me if you're going to try to regulate that anger you don't want to smash a jar against the wall if you don't like that box three then you want to go all the way to the beginning beginning beginning right begin at the mouth of the stream when I met him and he was explaining this to a large audience well a small audience at Yale like it was an academic meaning it was a cold day in November the year was 2011 I think and he just put up on a PowerPoint slide this like extremely simple model he was talking about emotion and I just saw all of human

43:19behavior I was like wait this explains everything why is this person late to work what were they thinking okay and what was the situation that initiated those thoughts so the whole idea is to reverse engineer everything you do back to its beginnings back to the situation and then to go forward again and say like well where do I want to be and then start the mouth of the river we have the sense of being sentient beings and being like goal directed right like I walk through the store I went to get my notes I'm logical and I'm intentional but so much of human behavior is not top down like intention but bottom up reaction you know we eat and drink when it's just there like so much is sort of like why are you thinking that in fact one of the people that I talk to and like summarize very briefly like a lifetime research he studied addiction is name a chef's eagle and he says the realtors will say like location location location and if you're dealing with addiction relocation relocation relocation and the reason is is that we're so stimulus driven like I know we

44:21don't like the idea that we are responding in automatic ways to the triggers in our environment but that's just the way it is and it's not for certain class of people it is for everyone and maybe the triggers are different but if you recognize and if you are humble enough to recognize that around certain people you start talking certain ways like I'm in LA it's been 24 hours in now you're on a GLP one I'm like not giving like in this hotel there are scales everywhere I'm like wait do people in LA constantly weigh them so I'm gonna be on a GLP one before I get on the plane back to Philadelphia I walk by this clothing and like me who shouldn't care because I'm a professor they can't fire me for not having a fashion sense and now all of a sudden I want to wear Prada this situation is changing me I know that's true I just had this kind of really fun and unique example of this happened to me which is I spent time a couple weeks ago in Nashville with one of my very best friends that lived in LA we hung out for maybe 15 years and then he moved back to Michigan so for the last 16 years he's been in

45:22Michigan I see him occasionally but he was he came down to Nashville so he's been now back in Michigan for 16 years and he was saying like my my my fattest point and I was like uh-huh and I'm like listen to this and we're so close and we love each other so much like there's no way I could offend him or make him feel insecure but I said what's wild about you saying this right now to me is it points out it illustrates so clearly how much were products of our environment because you're upset that you're overweight and to me let me ask you do you know a lot of people on GLP ones he goes no no what are those I'm like you know you've seen the commercial of a journal or a Zampic he's like I guess I see this what what is it not like explain what it is to my go but what's even more interesting to me Scott he's like how'd you not left LA I wouldn't be telling you what a GLP one is and if what you want is to lose weight like dude they did it like you can get this fucking shot yeah and he's like oh my god really he starts writing it down I'm like no I mean not really like he's a salesman he's out with other people he's not in this box one he's in a different box one he's not in the same context as me and he's a very smart person

46:27he was very up to speed on everything in his culture yeah and I don't know something about some bar view from a different box one situation it's like you used to be in the same culture and we used to have all the same shared knowledge and I was like oh this is a really fun illustration of you having gone back for 16 years and by the end of the trip he's like okay so I did GLP what else you know it was a perfect example okay I fell down this little rabbit hole studying this psychologist nobody's ever heard of and I had never heard Roger Barker he's this psychologist who coined the term behavior settings he started off by thinking that people were gold directed and so forth and he would actually follow individuals around for their entire day trying to understand like why Monica is different from DAX and what is inside Monica that is different from DAX but what he came to was a conclusion that he didn't expect which is like Monica behaves because of the behavior setting in which she is like she's responding to this yes Monica is Monica she's an individual but when you're in a drugstore you behave drugstore when you're in a church you behave church right and when you're in Montana you behave Montana and when

47:32you're in Wisconsin you behave Wisconsin he tells a story not entirely different I think from your friend which is he was like for example I don't like pork but I moved to this part of the country where it's just the only thing that everyone eats pork in every form ham bacon pork chops sausage and now that's what I eat not only just physically because that's the only thing around although that's part of it so if you visit LA and you spend a few days here and you want to be this way move to LA because you will and if you don't like it don't move to LA because when you get here you're going to change yeah that's fair so the idea that like your environment shapes you I think is deeply uncomfortable for people it seems to threaten agency in autonomy exactly and you know this guy Roger Barker that I got obsessed with I mean I went around I would ask my colleagues have you taught Roger Barker who I went to intro psych books I like went to the index skinners there Freud's there Danny Connemons there but Roger Barker is nowhere and I was like wait this guy

48:35at the height of his fame and the height of his influence he was the cat spajamas why did he fall maybe not from grace but fall from view so what happened was the world sort of was with him there was like oh behavior settings this is revolutionary if you want to be a certain way change your setting and then the world got kind of disenchanted now this is decades ago in the history that nobody's reading so the idea that the situation has power over you I think actually was at odds with our core notion of agency they rejected it they're like I don't like this story that when you go to the drugstore you behave drugstore and you go to the church you behave church but the last words that Roger Barker wrote were that when you recognize the power of the situation when you recognize the power of the environment to shape you now you really have power because you just changed the environment first before it does that you're still responsible for it which is what you want yes yes he was like you know you're not less agency but he was not successful and that is why nobody gets taught Roger Barker yeah let's talk about GLP ones because they're in the book yeah I'm

49:39like a huge fan yeah well every doctor is but not everyone is I think no no no and it hits the core I'll be talking I'm not gonna name names I know an older couple the husband's done it the wife isn't gonna do it and what you point out is like this thing about willpower is that it signals we believe people's character right okay so if you lose 20 pounds how'd you do it you know the old fashion way it was really hard work I you know changed my diet right case for two years yeah it was really hard by the way hated doing like and the more you hate it the more like points you get yeah then people want to give you like a 10 out of 10 on character on like moral fiber right strength of will if you say how do you lose a 20 pounds like oh GLP ones I don't know now in culture it's moving quickly think I think now the things are changing but at the beginning we're at right at the forefront of more talking about it and yeah at the beginning I was always going like why would anyone be mad no at the beginning it's insane at the beginning I was mad you were on

50:40the side of what I was like this is bad GLP ones are bad people shouldn't be taking them I had all these reasons but by the way I am on one now you are on one yes so were you heavier no but I started taking it for cholesterol you are seriously on them yeah okay I'm on a micro dose and it started because of cholesterol but we kept having all these people on these doctors that I do respect yeah Sunday goop days like this is the biggest miracle for Eric Topel was the main one for me I agree with him on pretty much everything yeah and he was like I think eventually this is going to be over the counter I think this is something everyone is going to be on it does all the stuff for dementia antibiotics vaccines in this thing so like the three miracles so I was like the three miracles yeah so I was like okay I will try it I absolutely love it and we have a doctor we are in a study and the doctor strongly urge her because her cholesterol is so fucked up so you also get a doctor urging you to do it yeah it does a lot for brain markers and so I got on it and then my numbers are amazing now right so you don't have a cholesterol problem has it changed anything

51:42else well it changed my view on having staunch views yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah we saw having staunch views of any kind yes on having any like moral high ground because that's how it started it's not just you'll be one so there's a research that shows that when people take for example antidepressant medication right like you know like you know and there's this kind of like oh well you know you could have done it the hard way and that would be the honorable way that you're cheating somehow you're cheating it's lesser than right that one especially the antidepressant one makes me so mad because there are so many people who are like trying to white knuckle it and guess what they're failing they're depressed right and they're not getting undepressed by doing all these things and it's like you can take this it's chemical I have the same thing with people who white knuckle sobriety without a am I congrats you're doing it but you're fucking missing out on everything that's fun about it you know alcoholism without AA and white knuckling obesity without

52:47GLP ones and white knuckling depression without over the countering chemical so I met this physician named Aaron Carroll who brings GLP ones in antidepressants into one story and it's his story so he was very successful across the board right you know a decorated author uh physician by the way yeah the person who was telling other people like you know you might want to consider medication himself felt so much shame he was overweight his father was overweight and he said you know I never stopped actually secretly blaming my father for his weakness of will and so GLP ones and of course prior to GLP ones antidepressants come out and he was very late to taking either of them even though he needed both of them he went on vacation he had like a panic attack and the panic attack led to a fall down a mountain he hit rock bottom and he had a sort of like well maybe not figurative literally yeah they didn't have to airlift him so maybe it was rock bottom there was a mountain involved it's rare someone's rock bottom it actually includes a

53:49yeah like that one it's like it's like it looks like the universe is really like him you are the head and you like a memo but I think this resistance so I wrote about GLP ones because I think getting GLP ones if you are the kind of person who needs them is getting situated right and the shame of well I couldn't change myself so I changed my situation is a mistake I think if we could honor I mean we should rate poems to the people who change our situation like why don't we valorize the people who had the courage or the common sense why not you know when he went on antidepressant medication and he's not speaking for everyone but he did talk very openly and right openly about this he's like I'm more engaging I'm more engaged I'm more optimistic I like myself yes right I don't think that's entirely changed by the way I don't think our society has gotten to the point where we're like oh you need an injection you need a pill great you're getting situated I don't think we're there yet it's also a cycle though because I think people who are depressed often people who are obese there's already shame in there there's shame which is part of

54:53the depression there's shame which is part of the shame that's like leading them to these figures where they're trying to manage an emotion yes it's hard to parse it all out right because that shame is also stopping the behavior of changing they're all feeding each other yeah and it's like just try I'm always like just try it you can stop there is a persistent question which is why people don't do that what's your theory and then I will tell you what scientists think or what some scientists think I think it appears to be the ultimate admission that it beat you so you're already let's say you've been trying to lose weight for 20 years and you have the shame of not succeeding at that if you are to finally throw up your hand and say fine I need a GLP one you are reading that as well now I've permanently admitted I could never do it it's the end of the thing I am a failure and stop that will signal that this thing I feared is now confirmed I'm a complete failure I can't do it on my own I have to have this thing it's admitting in full capacity my fear

55:55that I'm weak-willed and I'm all these things by doing this it's an admission that that is true in permanent you can sort of live in the sort of like but maybe I should do it yes you're living with hope that you'll get out despite all evidence says probably not I'm probably not going to be able to quit drinking that's some help but also maybe there's a sadder thing which is okay well if I do it and it doesn't work then I'm fundamentally like a kind of self-handy-capping thing maybe like if I do try because then if it doesn't work then I broke and I might as well they're going to layer that much your ex-couple you know I was going to bring up status quo bias but I think that's actually for a different so status quo bias is like clinging to the familiar imagine that you had the financial resources to move moving economists say from ones that go to another from one city block to another is probably the single most highly leveraged thing you can do to change the trajectory of your life because when you move you change your entire situation you change all the

56:55people around you you change your breath the billboards the food the vibe so the reason why economists like to say this loudly is because people aren't listening right because some people obviously can move places that other people can't but the status quo bias is that people who should move and can move don't move so for example when you have these moving to opportunity like when you get vouchers and you actually give financial resources to people and then you tell them how much better their lives will be many of them just don't and that I think is status quo bias I think that's actually not as relevant to like why are you not taking gelp ones like clinging to the familiar I don't know that we have a full explanation of status quo bias itself I think you're probably right it's true we are primates and we are driven by many different drives including status and esteem and I do think the sort of like I lost right I mean many and I can't do this on my own I lost I guess but nothing is more liberating than surrendering ironically it's so counterintuitive if you can get someone to try it right yeah yeah yeah if you can get someone to try that until you get them to

57:58try it there's nothing more terrifying yes you bring up Oprah as an example I think I bring up Oprah as several it's like fell down in Oprah rebel but they're wait yeah her use of gelp ones I think broadcast this special like shame blame and the weight loss revolution some title like that and I watched it live you know classic Oprah Oprah's a pro so she had not only in her like interviews but the choreographed documentary gelp ones which at the time were fairly new and I think she was one of the very first celebrities who came out in a very public way and said I'm taking them here's how it's changed my life and here's why I'm gonna continue to take them yeah thank god the titles like sort of says it all so the most famous yo-yo dieter in history who's been shamed and blamed for her weight I think a lot of people are like tis-tis you can have a trainer and you could have a you could have more hello more protein because the reasons they've told themselves the things that are standing in their way and their excuse she doesn't have on the table exactly the example

58:59of Oprah first of all taking gelp ones and saying like for the first time in her life she doesn't have food noise as a low level sort of distraction from all the other thoughts you could have while you're thinking about food you are perhaps also conducting a meeting or an interview but just to have that food noise dialed down right one of the most reliable effects of gelp ones for you know people for whom it's working so the example though is like so much more profound than like Oprah took gelp ones now she's a healthier I think the example goes so deep because I don't have food noise and I've never been attracted to substance use I don't know what that's like the idea that you have complete control over what's in you to me I want to say you have some control over the situation you might not think of it that way I also want to say maybe we need to semicolon because it is another thought but I do think it's connected if we underestimate the power of the situation and the power that we have to control the situation I think we often overestimate our power to control what's inside us if you have a genetic disposition towards drinking or thinking

1:00:04about food all the time I cannot understand that and also I think we are wrong to blame people for not changing there is this assumption that Oprah Winfrey should be able to change what's in her head completely why right is there be changing her height exactly yeah exactly it could be literally right exactly so this revelation that when we blame people for being overweight or we blame them for whatever behavior it is where you're like if they tried harder the subtext there is the things that are inside you you should have complete control over and I just want to say that's not true no it's the spurious distinction between mind and body which doesn't exist right stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare I am really sympathetic and I think I'm most interested currently in the people who have been very vocal about body positivity and embracing like your plus-signness and some people are even the face

1:01:06of that I look at them with the most sympathy because I'm like oh no now they probably feel like they're betraying their identity if they choose this GOP one or that they would be somehow contradicting everything they have and I think some people are stuck because they're like oh but I said all that stuff now will be a hypocrite right and now they're going to punish themselves now they're going to be like excommunicated from the one group where like to having already been excommunicated from the main group but then they found their tribe and they were helpful to people and they help people love themselves and now they're in this really tricky situation so sometimes when I'm seeing like really famous people that have the means to be on it do you think that's in the mix I mean look we are not in a good situation in the sort of macro sense the default settings of the modern world are not with us you're like what are the only people that I could be like oh and there's this evolutionary biologist at Harvard and you're like oh my god I can't wait to you know what she says next anyway the evolutionary biologist at Harvard he's like very famous for this like barefoot running kind of thing we evolved to like be long distance runners basically

1:02:10I think the idea is like we could outrun our prey yes a deer is faster than us but we just keep going so like this is a guy who spent his whole life like studying the evolutionary origins of human nature and what he would say about obesity is when we blame people either for being obese or procrastinating or being lazy is like what we have here is an evolutionary mismatch the modern world is at odds with our DNA our DNA are like yeah EDI E like do this like immediate gratification we can like to test the people who fail to delay gratification but homo sapiens evolved for immediate gratification not delayed gratification yes so this idea that there should be any shame in taking a drug that is a corrective for a food environment that is a mismatch for every impulse we have of course we need GLP ones it's like the anti aircraft's battery that we have because we're being assaulted I had for a long time a chapter in the book which I will just summarize because

1:03:12it kind of got cut it was caught our ultra processed world you know like yeah there's ultra processed food which by the way in addition to putting like sugar and fat together for the first time oh my god it also is metabolized super fast it's dissolved to essentially melt in your mouth for the reward system the speed at which we get reward is a big part of the intensity of the reward so not only am I feeling good oh my god it's a 10 on a scale from 1 to 5 but it's so fast right so the dopamine signal is very sensitive to time so you've got this ultra processed food but so much of the world is ultra processed and some of it's not bad like you go watch a movie like the Odyssey and you're like oh my god I'm experiencing a spectacle with emotion and color and music and monsters my ancestors didn't know anything about but there's nothing really harmful about watching a three hour bowling film I think the challenge is that in many dimensions much of social media is ultra processed right it's like I'm going to give this to you faster more colorful

1:04:15edited just the highlight reel more emotion more drama and by the way this guy's hot too and I think the most of the various part of that is when I learned I can't remember what DACA was in maybe we had the guy on the talk about but the fact that there was a period where when it reloaded it spawn it took a second and that was intentional they're like it doesn't need to reload it could happen instantaneously but the reward system is better if you have that little tiny bit of anticipation and also the anticipation has to vary dopamine is released on unpredictability that's what it does right yeah you got to anticipate it but then the anticipation's got a very nonstop or you're dopamine won't work it's like it's that fucking deep the thing could just be seamless whoa danger you start to feel like you're in a conspiracy very yeah but the reason why this is also relevant is if you're gonna just basically accept the default settings of the modern world you're not gonna be a happy healthy person you know what the default settings are they are eat alone in fact do almost everything alone that's another don't give me start trend right you know that goes back about 20 years that's apparently pre pandemic that the time that people spend

1:05:15out of their house for example has dropped like a stone and it's not only that we work alone in our homes we're like exercising a lot so I do think that the default situation the macro situation does not set us up for progress or goals and the most important part of what you just said is we are a social primate we are the most social of all primates yeah and a lion can never be happy by themselves a leopard can a tiger is a chimpanzee would kill itself alone out of misery we have to be with other people what's your explanation for why over the last 20 years or so people are spending more and more time by themselves if it is contrary to our DNA if it's contrary to our evolutionary heritage and and just like in the moment experience do you either view have a lay theory of why people are doing exactly the opposite what's good for them because I think it's actually related to the more money you have the more money you have the bigger home you have

1:06:17or people can be in different places you can have a private jet where you don't have to fly with other people it's like convenience and money is kind of counterintuitive but by the way poor people are spending time alone too so you got a lot of money I mean if you live in a house with your grandma and your aunt and it's okay you're not have to fact check this but I believe that at every socioeconomic status people are spending more time by themselves then they were previously well social media also is a huge part of that I think that's what a lot of social scientists think well again like all things they're gonna try to say it's one thing and it's not it's probably 45 things yeah but yes you have entertainment now that doesn't require you to go out of the house if you want to see a movie you just have to go to a movie theater where you don't have to do that now it's been streaming on your television or you could mail for the DVDs yeah right 20 years ago so you didn't have to go out to get the thing you wanted delivery food services became more and more commonplace now with postmates you don't need to go to the grocery store you don't need to go

1:07:18the restaurant I think you don't even need to greet the delivery guy now yeah leave it at the door I deliver I deliver food on one of our podcasts I'm a real Uber driver and I deliver food around L.A. and I was so excited to meet people I'm like oh it might be really fun if someone opens the door and it's me no one opens the door everyone is leaving the door I'm like oh okay that part of my plan went out the window but this one's dicey but I think it is really really relevant I think once women went into the workforce in massive numbers which I agree with I have two dollars I want them to not be dependent on a man but I think once that economic structure changed and women no longer needed men you see the marriage rates in Manhattan you can track that it's like a fucking hockey stick down right right the numbers now are like a fifth of what they were in 1980 so no one's married in New York anymore well that's interesting a lot of people are not married anymore they do not need to be you used to have to be married this is a similar explanation as Monica's who's basically you're saying what made us social is maybe that we are you know these social species

1:08:20but also necessity yeah you need other women were dependent on men which is not great I'm not saying that's good but they were dependent on men in marriages were financial arrangements so when liberated from the financial necessity of being like in the whatever like in a home you don't have to do it yeah they still need friendship I mean I guess I buck up against that a little bit of someone not married who has a ton of people around do you want to be married are you planning on it I mean depends on the person yeah if the right person yes I'm not opposed you're not opposed but I'm also not doing it unless it's yeah someone additive I don't know that that speaks for not having friendships around you add the marriage or the relationship they come with a group of people you come with a group of people you build out this combined thing it is a fast pass to more people it is a fast pass to more people by the way including their families but I think what I hear is that these is that necessity so I'm complaining a bit about the default settings of the modern world and I think we don't want to romanticize like the plague

1:09:21and when women good to only do one thing which is serve their husbands but I do think there is something that is lost in this change from an environment where a necessity brought you together well I was going to say do you remember I don't remember but apparently in history books the communal oven right not only could you not watch a movie but like if you go back far enough like you couldn't bake your bread except for the one oven yeah that the whole village had to like pull resources and bring to a certain temperature for like a few hours in the day but what happens around a bread oven is that you see other people maybe the curse of wealth and the curse of technology is that we can do things that are not good for us yes anyone can be their own unit their own business in their own home I think that's the driver of it is like we don't need so we don't need the lack of necessity necessity maybe the mother invention but it is maybe possibly the mother of connection and it's led us to solitary lives and we are social animals and that's not going to work and you see the results of it everywhere you look so there is this chapter in the book which I actually if I could go back which apparently I'm not allowed to I

1:10:23would re title I was like I have a better there's this chapter right about peers that's the chapter I write about AA in right because I'm like there is no wiser organization than this and if you want an example of how you cannot solve your problems alone AA I chose as the example tell the story of Dr Bob and Bill W it's a good one so I'll give you my new title because I gonna forget because I told you have a terrible memory it's like join a group the subtitle could be like in other words don't try to do this on your own and that is actually related to Dr Bob and Bill W's so deliberately these first name founders of AA co-founders of AA because AA the big book right was written by Bill W the n-animity thing is a whole other conversation but he would never have created alcoholics anonymous if it weren't for Dr Bob so these two alcoholics both in active struggle unsuccessfully it seems with their addictions again one a doctor want to stock program these are not fucking losers no actually they were very successful the idea that these are weakwilled

1:11:26people it got through medical school and simply at and by the way to like actually manage a very successful medical career despite like drinking till six in the morning these two drunks as they put it meet each other and the reason is I think it was an acronym HIO which is where Dr Bob was practicing and Bill W was there on a business trip that was going set Bill had had a little bit of a spiritual awakening in a hospital that he had been in numerous times from his addiction he has a spiritual kind of awakening he's now committed to sobriety he goes to acronym HIO right on a business trip and he's starting to get really antsy he's seeing people at the bar and the business trip is going south he's in the hotel lobby and just across the lobby you can hear the ice cubes like in the glasses and you know the laughter and he's drawn and yet he has had the spiritual awakening but I think that to me the epiphany was not in the hospital where he was like oh no yeah to me the epiphany was that he needed another alcoholic because he called to like find an alcoholic that he could talk to and yes through a series of connections was led to Dr. Bob I think

1:12:27Dr. Bob's family gave him like something like 15 they were very skeptical they'll stranger from another state who apparently also has a shrinking problem could be any kind of good for Dr. Bob and his shrinking from the idea of putting like two alcohols together and getting anything other than a disaster yeah it's a fair thought yeah common sense it's like just not so they give like 15 minutes it ends up being something like all night right so these two men finally have in each other somebody who really understands yeah as you point out it's like the 12 steps are great that's not the magic of a if they handed that book out on corners and there was never any meanings they practically do right it's practically free you can get it but that's not the magic that's not the magic is my father died 28 years sober he never read that book but he went to a meeting seven days a week his whole friendship group was AA you know what I followed the thread of the research on AA is very hard to study yeah because it's very hard to be like in the treatment group you go to AA and in the control group you don't because you can't make the control group not go to AA and you can't

1:13:29force the people in the treatment group to keep going to AA so it's very hard to study but there is I think he's like the first endowed chair at Harvard for addiction named John Kelly and when I followed the breadcrumb trail of the research that was done on AA because even if you don't have a random assignment treatment control there are still ways of studying it it takes more statistics essentially with all the complications of studying AA right I asked him why he studied it I was like you could have studied many things he was like here's why I studied it this is the most enduring approach I don't know if everyone knows this like AA is by far the most enduring and effective treatment compared to any including pharmacological treatments right weirdly GLP ones might start getting in the way yes we have to have a revisit on the other GLP ones and I don't know but I will put money on the possibly because when I started studying AA wasn't because I had a particular interest in addiction I have not found a structure an invention a situation that is better for people yeah I always say I'm so happy I'm an addict right because like I want to go there because we

1:14:33can't really go to AA and like sit on a folding chair my thing is where would you see men be vulnerable in a circle anywhere but this place and by the way the part where you're like of service I actually after I started studying AA and I like read all this research and the point I wanted to make actually about five minutes ago was what I think John Kelly's research shows is that yes there are many things that go into AA but one of the final common pass is the change in your social network that the four closest friends that you have are now not drinking and when you have these emotional connections with people so I just wanted to like affirm that but after discovering the magic of AA I thought to myself okay this organization is what is it like 90 years I don't think it's 100 years old it's not 100 years old it's like you know I have 30s the book maybe or something yeah so I think it's like say 90 like I was like well that's been a long time and clearly somebody must have seen this model and said oh we can do it for the rest of us right well they took the model into overeating they took it into gambling they took it into sex addiction but what about just like people who aren't struggling with it so here's I think I can agree Mark because you get hung up on

1:15:35the alcohol piece or the drug piece but let me tell you every human being is using something to regulate that is easy and quick that's probably not beneficial to them we're all trying to regulate and so yeah I happen to regulate with that someone happens to regulate with gambling someone regulates with sex when that was shopping whatever it is with food and it's like guys we all right you know there's no one category my chosen method of regulations more destructive I have more positive I still have addictions and I'm still regulating but the outcome has less record right I work out a lot I was gonna say like you can be like oh I'm a distance runner but I'm dealing with my emotions this way if I were gonna write another book and I swear to 10 years Mark death right down in blood I don't think I will but if I were I think there's a very important so you're like I'll think of something else other than the inside game and outside game but I do think there's something deeply true about human nature that does help us understand why

1:16:37we do things that aren't great I do think that we are built for immediate gratification here's a trivial example when my daughters were growing up and there were these two cups in the bathroom and one just by chance would be like a little I had two cups I thought two daughters two cups whatever they were probably a key they were like a dollar each it didn't matter I could have had one cup you know why because only the cup that was a millimeter closer got used whenever you go into a bathroom oftentimes the architects build a paper towel dispenser on your way out in between the trash can in the sink yes and one that's farther away and you know what they never have to change the paper towels and the other one because everyone takes immediate gratification we take the shorter path and then we just keep doing what has been feeling good and I think if there is a lesson in situated it is that okay one thing you have to do especially now in this modern world because the default settings aren't great for you is say how do I set this up so that doing the immediately gratifying thing for doing the like obvious thing for being reactive admitting this is who you are right but put

1:17:40yourself in the situation so if the situation is going to basically shape you I mean shape it first that is the simple lesson yes well you said what do we do with people who aren't addicts right so I have a group of girlfriends we do girls dinners yeah it is so hard to schedule these girls to I mean it's nearly impossible same group of girls right yes you have some positive girls on the last group text when I was like what about this day this day this day and then someone said something like well what if we pick like second Wednesday of the month or something like that and I was like yes and people are like oh yeah I don't know because I don't know I was like if we don't commit to that I was like we have to treat this like it's AA did you say that I did I said it were committed to this you'll schedule around it yeah we'll make it work you know I can't do it on the day it's in my count exactly but we have to treat it the reason why you're dying on the sills like it is we've been doing girls dinners for years but this conversation happened like three years ago how did it get started tell me about this group well it's a group of friends from

1:18:42our pod that we had in in COVID we're not podcast pod no COVID pod and Rob S friends and we have all busy lives and people have kids and everyone has jobs and whatnot it's hard but I was like we decide to be committed or we don't yeah it has to be treated on the same level as AA is treated with Dax and some of our other friends which is like if he doesn't go he might dot okay get tell me so this needs to be like that yeah okay so tell me what is this group for you community and we go and we share and we gossip the wife's bitch about the husband everyone in the bad idea but about here I bitch about Christmas everyone's going through so much and sometimes we just laugh the whole time but often we don't often someone's crying it's community in this chapter that I could have renamed like the in a group don't be alone or like join the team is that but chose to call pick your peers so I was almost done writing it and I met a surgeon and this group of other

1:19:43surgeons that decided to start this little group yeah much like yours except for they were all male surgeons yeah so it's not a girls group it's a guys group they're all arrogant continue well they are all the future surgeons so if you want to get started then you can apply them but I will say the ones that I met were very nice but it's a group of I think like five or six of them and they started when you know one of the things about these groups are you roughly the same like with like a decade or so this group of surgeons is very similar to yours and by the way if you ask these surgeons and they're not your age they're at the end of their like they're 60s like that you know they were like this may have been the most important thing I ever did and yes they have a group text thread and yes they have re-rained schedules to have dinners so when I learned about them I thought to myself I don't sleep with myself on next to my bed check right like I don't have like a lot of junk food in the house check so okay great my physical situation is good I really honestly I have mentors out the wazoo a lot of the people that you admire I'm like yeah I'm the psychologist I am because I'm okay check but on peers so when I interviewed these

1:20:48surgeons and I was like holy shit this is the one thing that you want to tell me that other than making the romantic choice you made this is the one thing that you think made your life go well I looked around and I realized I don't have what you have monica I texted let's see Wendy cop who runs teacher America shalini Sharma who runs a big non-profit cousin Mary Egan she used to be at Starbucks as like head of strategy like I am attracted to women who are very similarly or gangsters they're like yeah they're like you know what they're like bring it and it took us like 45 to find one dinner but you know what you've inspired me so like we're due and it does take effort but I do think a little effort goes a long way when you use it to change your situation now your situation includes these girlfriends yeah and my situation does not yet include these like high-power women who were due for our second dinner but I think you've just inspired me to like push through because that effort will pay off I think it does buck the trend because you know what maybe one other reason why in the modern world everyone's doing things asynchronously and alone

1:21:48is that it's too complicated to synchronize and to coordinate right like if it's this hard yes to get a bunch of young women together well by the way especially your friends are all busy the professionals yours are two yeah look when I was a deadbeaten Michigan one hard to get a hang going at all no one's doing a fucking thing and anyone hit anyone like you like I'm already else I do I do anything yeah okay okay so your busy person was like a lot going on yeah and those are your peers I never wondered that face but your peers are gonna be high achieving so they're gonna maybe have to work late but again you just treat it as if you'll die without it I like this analogy like you will it's worse than smokey yes research says so look I think this is a great active situational agency I would just say like I would not give myself full credit on that but you've shown me the way do it I am gonna do it the reason I love your writing is the anecdotes are every four pages we get a new story it's one after the amount of examples you have in research

1:22:51they're coming so fast and if you have a instantly gratifying brain like my own it's so tasty to read it's a very very very fun read you're getting to learn about all these little things in little perfectly segmented tasty morsel bites and they're just kind of endless that's what I'm blown away the amount of different fun anecdotes and stories that you've woven into this overall cohesive theory of yours I think is is so well done and I really really hope people check out situated find the people in places that bring out your best love it thank you dex I adore you just come anyways yeah yeah is it our care expert buddy makes mistakes all the time they got my occurs here he's got a little how the facts how are you Monica Padman I'm good I discovered something oh my gosh a discovery something bad oh okay not like a scientific discovery we'll see you'll see okay

1:23:52you'll let you be the judge yeah what science really yeah everything I think okay so I am in the middle of reading a book that I love okay what's it called it's called God of the Woods okay what's it about it's scary it's a scary book so it's set in the 70s okay you're a decade of my birth yeah and a summer camp and a girl goes missing oh okay yeah 70s perfect setting for missing girl at a summer camp yes and her brother went missing some years before oh and they still sent their other kid away to he didn't go missing at the camp okay okay the family also owns this camp anyway I'm giving away okay point is I'm really into this book yes and I am so into it that even when I'm like on walks and stuff I want to listen so I then also downloaded the audiobook oh you're doing both you're bouncing back and forth yes so I can consume it as fast as I want but

1:24:55the problem is first of all I don't generally like audiobooks okay they're very hard for me to focus on you're trying to get distracted and then after a rewind rewind and I hate that and then I try to do something extra interesting where I was listening to the audiobook was playing in my kitchen and then I picked up the physical book and I was reading and listening at the same time how did that go bad because you know what what it didn't match wait what yes so I'm reading the audiobooks maybe a bridged unabridged you wouldn't have that problem you got it so let me look if it's not verbatim out of the text then it is but what it doesn't have to say that well what they'll say is they generally make the distinction unabridged they won't tell you that it was a bridge you got to look to make sure that it's unabridged and you will often see the two of the same titles one of them's a bridge to one of them's unabridged all right yeah it's not saying but my guess is there's

1:25:57not more vocal audio there's more text that's what yeah that's what I mean they cut some stuff out that's right yeah but I'm gonna look to see if there's unabridged uh tap tap tap tap tippy tippy tippy tippy tap tap not about yeah so maybe they don't have an unabridged version of it well I'll tell you if it's unabrid I think they're just they skipped some parts they skipped some sentences because it's still really long on here well guy how many hours 14 hours 35 minute this is confusing yeah that feels unabrid exactly that's the kind of runtime we see in an unabridged I think it was a mistake and I caught it and it just happened it was so sim I happened to be on that exact page I'm similarly having a trippy experience where I have gotten an advanced copy of an audio book it's not been edited so I'm hearing repeats I'm hearing the the author of the books also reading it

1:26:59so it's like I'm going along I'm lost in it and then he'll repeat the same sentence two or three times and I'm like wait what's going on I'm like oh yeah this isn't this isn't finished also hasn't been mixed so it's like it sounds much different right I mean that's just a version that's hard to listen to it's a different experience okay so you love the book I love it that the audio version skipping some stuff now I've re I reframe that I'm I love that that happened that I caught it and you busted I know it was more just a sim it was like a glitch like I happened to be on that one page they made a mistake yeah when I was listening own and reading that strange that does remind me of watching physical 100 and being very suspicious that the Korean translations into English were not actually what they were saying because they were just so conveniently on story I'm exactly really what they were we there's no way for us to know that's why I watched with subtitles instead of that show specifically yeah well there's that there's the there's the

1:28:02voiceover you know the dubbing the dubbing but even the the text was suspicious you are where I'm like I need someone that speaks Korean with me to tell me if that's really what was just said yeah because it's very convenient in this moment and sometimes things don't translate like you know there are phrases and things we don't have here that's right you know Ana has a really good phrase in Spanish I don't remember what it is but in it translates to egg with no salt which I love I'm talking about a boring person yeah yeah but you know joy has a similar one underseason oh I love that yeah I got no salt sounds better though in Spanish obviously and this actually is not a good example because it does translate but there are others and she'll she'll say them and I'm like what does it mean she's like it doesn't really it's not gonna work exactly and then jealous well so just wanted to let you know that's where I'm at yesterday was Justice birthday

1:29:06can tell me you guys went out where'd you go what happened he turned 50 we played spades Ali spades I miss it because I don't play it nearly good I was afraid you were about to say you don't like it no I love it okay yeah because it's it's the queen's game but but but but but it is just a contentious game is it okay so I wasn't yeah contentious yeah it also is just as birthday he's on my team and I said it was like no fight we're not fight no one's fighting today okay that's the commitment and then you know he's like I don't fight okay great and then so we all you know we we play and then and then just gets mad at Brian because why because the thing I'm trying to think of the things you can get mad at is people say too much like they're they're giving their partner info that you probably shouldn't be allowed to say so that's one area that can get contentious what other area though

1:30:07well yeah so that is kind of a heaven but not really like Brian who called just the game exactly has been playing since he was little like he's the king he is the king of spades he's the king of spades oh my god that was really cool that's really cool which would happen anyway so he just said something I don't even remember what it was okay I really don't it was so innocuous I think maybe he said they have theirs which could be bad right like because like he was saying to his partner you guys have already made your we got ours yeah but so someone might be mad about that because it's like well if he wasn't paying attention then maybe whatever but didn't matter because Brian had the next he had the rest of the hands so nothing was changed that steak yeah yeah and Jess got so mad birthday birthday mad he had birthday to he had a birthday breadiness yeah and he was like

1:31:16no you know you know you did oh wow he didn't do anything and then Brian Brian's Jess's best friend Brian is the nicest guy on her he's a sweetheart he's so so nice and good and and he's just like okay I know what I like he is and then he acquiesced yeah and you know I'm not now you're in yeah now you're on line I'm like I'm not letting you treat Brian this way I don't care fits your birthday and so at what I and you and Jess are partners yeah okay great and we were losing like so he was he was getting stressed yeah he went whatever anyway so then I want and then he's doing it again he's continuing and I just I looked at him and I'm out stop I know I know that you see me but I see I have to mal that okay so he really gets it like yeah stop you're in trouble yeah you're in trouble you are you are you in trouble so then he's stopped

1:32:21because you scared of his wife mom yeah yeah and then he goes to the bathroom and then he comes back and he's like oh you know what we're just gonna be done oh wow he pulled the plug on and we weren't gonna finish okay so to be fair we weren't gonna but because one of the Andrew's other friend had to leave so we were we're not gonna be able to finish and but but still we had time to keep playing yeah and he was like I just I think we should just play something else and and we were all like no what we're not gonna finish and then we did end up playing one around I mean then I was just like God this game really gets people yeah I got I have to say so we play of course with the Richardson's hours and hours and hours these family vacations we take are just excuses to play spades in a different setting yeah we'll go to the most spectacular place in the world we won't see one museum will just play spades of the cafe we don't fight almost ever

1:33:23if if it happens it'll be funny it'll be me getting mad at Eric for how he's treating Molly right like I'll say yeah yeah so very similar I'll be like hey come on now that's yeah yeah and then occasionally there'll be the like you've said too much you know right I am a big I don't like when people say too much I really don't like that I don't like it but it doesn't get me angry yeah it's like you know you're always riding the line and sometimes people step over it but it's kind of fine obviously so much of whether you fight or not in games is who you're playing with uh-huh and the exact specific dynamic of of the group so it's not even like you know I could play with Jeff it's not like every time I play with Jess it's just like the specific dynamics of all the individual people yes make make the um environment yeah yeah interesting yeah so it's funny

1:34:25you know like I would get sheriffy yeah um both sellers a good team pretty often and I had to recuse myself from the game right I was just like I don't like yeah these don't end well it's worth playing that we used to fight a lot of yeah all about everyone involved yeah we did yeah but and like got person like a tan would get person because sometimes you like would help people out yes gang up on people it was the gang up that always set me off I'm like this is bullshit or like you're not going to build your road some help someone but it's like well you should just build it there that's the smart thing but so you're helping yes all too fuck with me if I'm in the leaner fuck with you yeah that's that's why to me the game a little like like like dax is always helping Kristen because he's her wife she's his wife and like that's unfair I don't have a husband here okay so that was before Jess and I got married okay all right so anyway and and we tend to fight also sometimes in space like we we have a content

1:35:29and she's sure nature I think it games yeah yeah but we haven't played together in a long time so but uh it's just so funny it is how is your shoe falling off while you're seated no it's just gotten tied and then even how to get in tied while you're seated um it's not that good of a you know it's like one of these materials that doesn't stay tied well okay oh well and you do I saw you did like triple knots and now you're doing a double knot with the bows yeah 12 or so it'll be out by the time this is over oh wow um so I mean see you guys you played space I didn't work out did you then you couldn't eat and have a good meal yeah we did then we went to dinner went to smokehouse bourbon classic very classic yeah and it was it was really fun yeah great you know I went to a wedding last weekend yes do share well it was the most fun time yeah what are great sometimes they're great sometimes they're fine okay um this one was particularly fun for me okay because I don't know anyone uh that the bride and groom are friends

1:36:36with I'm not in their circle at all right and also they're way younger than us so it's mostly younger people and I did I was like I was getting very aware of all the anthropological things that go on at a wedding and why they exist like you could see them the mechanics of it and it's like you get seated you know I was seated at the rehearsal dinner between two people I don't know yeah but those two people can seevably love the same people I love and I was like oh that's why these are so powerful about aligning families yeah sure you know it's like it it does something magical to your own defenses and your own protections and you're just like kind of come in trusting everyone there and and and you get closer to people in this really quick fashion in just a weekend yeah which is really really fun yeah and I had an incredible experience where I

1:37:38was seated between someone that was raised in communist Poland and someone who cut their teeth in the business working for Aaron spelling right so the code switching I was doing going back and forth between the two different conversations I was having was among the most dramatic I've ever had other than that time we interviewed a sex expert followed by someone that was in a gulag yeah it was that level like yeah I'm like laughing about really naughty naughty naughty stuff on the left and then I'm turning and I'm talking about trading a pair of leabies for a car oh wow you know so that was really really fun and and then then the dance the dance floor oh boy yeah Monica I went full throttle I bet I danced for three plus hours you love dancing so I had my shirt off because I was soaking wet dancing oh you were a bit upset at some point it became a taxi to pants in no shirt

1:38:40okay not even a like wipe no no shirt my shirt was so disgustingly soaked did anyone else have their shirts off no okay but an incredible moment happened where one one of the guests kept making fun of me why is your shirt off yeah fair and then I then grabbed my shirt and I said to her you are ruining this wedding I'm gonna put my shirt back on I was teasing her I'm you're everyone's gonna leave I'm you're ruining the wedding I'm gonna put my shirt back on and as I was putting it on someone ran across the dance floor guy because what stop what are you doing do not put your shirt on the timing of it if we were filming it he would have never entered at a more perfect time to make everything hysterical okay and then I got an actual specific compliment on Monday from the groom saying I have so much gratitude for anyone that comes and tears up the dance floor for three hours

1:39:40at a wedding and I was the only guy there that wasn't a family member sure I mean it was dramatically older than everyone not dramatically oh twenty four years it's like I could have been the fact that I could have been the parents of most of the people yeah it's pretty dramatic oh yeah I thought just real quick not to but I just thought that the story was gonna be that you went to put on your shirt and then someone slipped on the sweat oh that would have been funny yeah but they would have gotten hurt probably like an easy just quick fall but they popped right back but it's like a but the enthusiasm which this guy was screaming please don't put your shirt back at the moment I was in the joke that it was gonna ruin the wedding it was just I just wanted to leave at that moment like well that's it's not getting more perfect than that yeah situation that happened wow so you did leave your shirt oh I did yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it was not coming back on wow I had fans at one point like those Asian fans you know like the little what do you call folding ones you know yeah and I was doing a very elaborate dances with the fans that were really

1:40:45where I felt like Lincoln like Lincoln discovers something like she could skip this rope and she think she's a pro at a play and I'm the same exact way when I'm watching oh yeah any you know so yeah I had this whole fan routine going I mean it was it was an exploratory and expansive three hours of dancing and I I don't think I've done cardio on that level yeah yeah and so I woke up the next morning I was like I was done like five pounds from all of the exertion and sweat sweat sweating on the dance floor I was also a vegetarian meal sweating oh the whole oh the whole so I was eating like you know way less so it's great I can I really I came back knocked off a few pounds well yeah just my my my my percentages dropped wow in a pleasing way but it was a blast great I love being around young people oh wow I hope I get to always have a

1:41:47route because it is youth is infectious you you it's contagious interesting I felt like I was 28 that whole weekend oh yeah I time travel this is exactly how I behaved when I was 28 and sure to off the dancing for three hours that's not gonna happen in our friendship group like that's not no I don't think I'm gonna happen I that's so interesting also you will be around young people you have two young daughters um but but I won't be able to behave like that because they'll be so embarrassed oh yeah stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare I totally feel the opposite like the older I get the more I'm just like wow I'm so glad I'm not in my 20s like I'm just so I'm much happier the older I get and more content and more yeah

1:42:48even like how do I say this we did something where we were talking to a young person they're really like earnest and so sweet and it was like lovely yeah and then but you said after you were like like to be that age and have like everything is important and the well you're writing your life story yeah and you have kind of an inflated sense of your every story book yeah yeah yeah yeah something to take from yeah um yeah I don't admit I don't want that again my conclusion uh leaving it I was like trying to figure out what I was feeling and the way I think I've framed it is when you're younger you prioritize your experiential self all the time um you are you know care if you stay up till six in the morning you know you're probably doing drugs you're drinking too much you're smoking cigarettes with your friends like all you're just like you're prioritizing the experiential self at at the expense of your narrative self you know the person that two days later

1:43:51at work is going to be dragon ass right and so I think as you get older you keep sliding more down the the spectrum of torture narrative self and being responsible and setting yourself up for next week and you know it just seems to be the natural evolution yeah so there's something beautiful about prioritizing your experiential self and I think that gets harder to do is you get older you're just more responsible your friends are more responsible nobody's gonna just throw tomorrow to the win for today I maybe again maybe this is just so specific to me I feel like I'm on the other trajectory like I feel like I started out so burdened with like what's my life gonna be responsibility and like even being even with being out with friends like is everyone okay am I okay are we all drinking like I you had a lot more anxiety yes I was like riddled with anxiety and it was about the future it was about my narrative self like do I want to be a person

1:44:54that's doing this like um and now I feel like I'm dropping a lot of that like I'm just like oh I'm here I'm doing what I want right now yeah you're more comfortable and have less anxiety and you're enjoying the experiences you're having you're more present for them yeah I think I'm more talking specifically about stealing from tomorrow for today I generally do not do that in my adult yeah well you have to learn otherwise yeah like I just I just generally don't do it I'm gonna go to bed on time because I I want to meditate and do all my bullshit and I can't be starting the day at noon so whatever I just but to have a few moments in your year where you totally steal from tomorrow and maybe the next day for just this incredibly heightened experience yeah it's important like I'll remember this night of dancing yeah to allow all hours of the night oh my death you know like it'll be a very memorable experience and it caused me feeling a little tired the next few days

1:45:58but I I'm really grateful to have had it that's good yeah I I don't know I kind of feel like I'm I like live I like live like that now yeah maybe for not too much at a reasonable time it depends like if I if I decide tonight I want to stay up till three I will okay and yeah if I like right yeah yes that's what I'm saying so I you're already getting plenty of service I'm getting on your experiential self I think so so I'm glad you got that yeah um sometimes it's worth it to be tired yeah okay something cute happened earlier I have this mug it's a really cute mug it's um from the ritz Paris and I love mugs you know and this has yeah this has for the listener like scones on it and like pastries a kutramah and some bugs on it and then on the inside of the cup

1:47:00there's a ladybug print yeah just one and I had my tea and it was sitting out and and Dax got so concerned that there was a bug in my tea I went to get it out for you yeah and then I was humiliated did you feel tricked so I just like I would drink a tea that there had been a bug in right I would just get rid of the bug and it wouldn't bother me uh-huh and so weirdly like what was going on so fast it's like I was like oh I got to get that out of there before she sees it and then I was like oh is that trickery is she gonna be at like she would she not want to drink it but I just I know if she doesn't see it and I get rid of it it's probably no thing but if she sees it that thing's dead she's gonna have to throw the whole thing out so there was just there was it was very layered other than just the trickery of it wasn't really a bug yeah and then you felt really annoyed probably I never got upset I thought I would be kind of upset if I got like oh you know worked up and then I was just like oh oh that's a trick yeah that's a funny trick

1:48:03you were excited because it is the trick it was a he I didn't I just thought it was not no I was like oh it's nice he wanted to get that bug he was worried about this tea in my in this bug um and then oh he got tricked and he doesn't like getting tricked well I buy an inanimate object I don't manage buy an inanimate object I don't mind okay I don't like deception in humans yeah but a human made this you know but I'm I don't know now to be surprised it was a Frenchman yeah exactly to be clear if a bug of this size which is like pretty big yeah was in here yeah I would throw it away yeah so yeah so you were right I don't mind a bug if there were a lizard in my drink I wouldn't have it yeah Salmonella ew well if it's a teeny tiny bug or like a fruit fly that's fine yeah I'll get that out okay right good but a huge ladybug but only the top was showing it didn't look like a lady

1:49:07bug it looked like some kind of small nat type sit yeah okay fruit fly don't bother me all right should we do some facts let's do some facts quick fun fact what so Angela had to use the bathroom after the shsh episode and so she came in and she got to meet Kristen and the kids and she hung out for 20 minutes and use the bathroom and then she was about to uber to her friend's house and I said I'll drive you to your friend's house and she said oh thank you and I said you want to take a car or motorcycle and she's like she goes I've never been on a motorcycle yes and I go well let's come on and I want to publicly applaud her it's not like her first motorcycle ride was on a country road it was rush hour traffic LA me going to Hancock Park Lane splitting like crazy going around to turn love you know and she just was chatting the whole time we're just chatting up a storm and we were just I mean it was about as intensive a first moment I go to

1:50:11all right I probably have and she was a champ and it was so fun and that is now the second guess we've had that I gave their first motorcycle ride to lucky and I hope it becomes a pattern so any future guess if like you that's a desire of yours that's a service we provide wow yeah yeah yeah she did pull me aside and she was like is it have you been on his motor cycle yeah I have it's like it's fun and she was like and she was like is it dangerous and I was like he knows I was like he knows that he's doing it's fine he's still here that's he's still here you know we used to we used to work with a guy Monica when we delivered cars and we delivered them very long distances from Detroit we drive to Florida to drive cars off New York almost every other weekend and we worked with this guy Don who did the most amount of deliveries and he didn't sleep and he drank Coca-Cola in the car all all day long and brushed his teeth with the code there was so much

1:51:12stuff going on and he would be sometimes driving and he'd be like God dare I go to sleep on the ride home from New York and it was kind of scary because I don't think his eyesight was that great either and then you just had to go like I don't know how he keeps getting home yeah yeah you didn't argue with the results yeah who am I to not fall asleep while he's driving he's all over the road and stuff with me and I keep doing it wow okay does you say in bolt yes he's done interviews before we have yeah he's even been on the OB-1 podcast and the high performance podcast oh okay so that's good for us maybe he'll come on hopefully he can come in on the robot that just broke his speed record and then crashed into a bunch of electrical equipment you see the end of that oh I watch endless footage of these robots I love it so much I know this was like by people

1:52:13yeah you're real great in a straight line yeah oh here you go Monica like if I'm him I'm kids well why I didn't doesn't mean anything yeah the car is faster than him too like he's not compete he's not gonna be at a bar next to that robot yet now shine but people are gonna come up to him be like oh jee here your record yeah like people like me yeah I'll meet him outside before the end of the okay you read him question did Ed respond Ed Norton he did and he did not know who she was and then but he promised to promptly learn about her okay great yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I just want to pat myself on the back let's do it um she brought up the book the correspondent very popular book right now I have not read it yet but I pulled out the name of the author you're really good at the names monkey and I don't even read it you save us a lot I thought I mean

1:53:17I've just seen it I own the book I haven't read it but I own it so I think I've it's like entered my eyes in a way it was shocking I just said oh Virginia Evans and then later I was like there's no way that's the right author and it is it is I have to say I have a pretty deep knowledge of what would you call them classics and popular books over the last two centuries I know the author in the title and I know what the books about but I haven't read it but it is interesting that you can like books become common knowledge even if you haven't read them like someone gonna be talking about like what's the thing and I'll go like oh it's that book from but I haven't read that book you know I'm saying yeah even upton's and Claire I said the jungle yeah and I haven't read that and I haven't I haven't read any upton's and Claire other than some passages but I know what his books were about and expose they have a meatpacking industry and you know yeah well you probably

1:54:19learned about it in school I think I just hear people talking about it because if I generally if you learned it in school you were you are assigned that book and then you would talk about it but not everyone reads them I certainly didn't know I had to read old man in the sea that's rough that was torture I mean ways for guys it's it's so for guys I hated it yeah I've loved some hemmingway books it's all about pursuits of masculinity and it was so boring you're just sitting there like what's a man battling a creature yeah it's horrible speaking of I'm gonna go on a podcast where I get to talk about a book that changed my life which book is that and I don't know yeah what I'm gonna pick oh what are your top three I can think of some well yeah I'm not gonna pick any of the hairies I think you should no because I bet other people have done it like I think it's like a real deep dive into whatever book I pick and it's like if somebody else has done that I don't

1:55:20want to do that but listen it's very personal it is it's very personal well yeah well you mean just because I love it so much no like we outcast yeah like I don't feel like I belong oh I belong somewhere that's a very specific story to you and we had a guess on recently that's coming out great guest mega star and she too and I and it goes against my stereotype right and then I go oh no that makes perfect sense I think for many many people yeah what they connected to is like oh I am special I'm just not in the right place definitely yes but I just too many people have read it and it's a lot of books do that a lot of books the reason you resonate is because you're like oh yeah I like know this person and that's me and loving them you know when they feel unlovable yeah I really want to do tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow that's I only read that

1:56:25a couple of years ago I love that book so much but I do think probably someone's already done that so you really want to pick a book a book I haven't read like I would yeah I would do catcher in the right yeah great book or or crime and punishment and certainly people would pick those books it would be pedestrian but it'd be the truth it's like the first time I was reading something where I was like oh my lord I'm not the only person on earth that thinks this way and is experiencing this yeah phenomenal phenomenological thing that is life oh wow I'm not alone yeah I mean have you ever read lords of discipline no that's a Pat Conroy book that was my favorite book for like well very very very long time but I think I would need to reread it it's like I don't really remember what I loved so much about it yeah yeah but it like takes place at West Point talk about for boys but I really connected with it we love boys at school that's what my crux of the interview

1:57:32will be yeah anyway is the correspondent Virginia Evans first book yes okay the school I looked up the headmaster of the school that Bill Gates went to lakeside school okay that's the school is the school Dan I wrote a ralt a y r a u l t is the headmaster oh served as a headmaster from 69 to 1990 well I would have included Bill yeah cool what it of he's turned 70 like I he might be after after 90 no no after 60 he bill might be before 69 so Bill turned 70 last year 1955 he was born 55 so when he was 12 it would have been 67 14 69 so the dude might have just arrived maybe he just arrived and maybe he wanted to double down on computer science

1:58:34so they crossed but that's that's that's right at the wire oh yeah sorry it says right here graduated in 1973 okay so right when he arrived the sky arrived he arrived in 69 so yeah they they were there at the same time that's nice yeah I love teachers what a group of boys that guy oversaw okay Angela says at every socio economic status people are spending more time alone people across different socio economic statuses have actually increased overall with the sharpest rises concentrated among lower income and less educated individuals lower socio economic status increases in alone time and home base leisure are significantly more pronounced for individuals from lower income house yeah in those without a college education higher socio economic status while higher income individuals also experience shifts in time use partially influenced by remote and work flexibilities the long-term structural climate daily isolation has grown faster

1:59:36among lower resource groups yeah across nearly all demographics the multi-year trend since the 2000s accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic up to up to 2022 points towards more time spent living in doing leisure activities at home and buy oneself rather than less okay yes so everyone not great not great not a great at all um okay Michael Phelps he retired in after the 2012 London Olympics returned to competition in April 2014 and then retired permanently after 2016 Rio Olympics he has some substance issues around alcohol he first experienced post-lumpic depression after the 2004 Athens Games it returned after later Olympics and was at its worst after the 2012 games when he contemplated suicide that's bad um oh what is currently the number one US school for swimming Texas it's just that right please bill bill ballman and move there from ASU runner up

2:00:41Florida I hate all these schools yeah third is Indiana I don't hate them as much okay they weren't as much of a threat yeah football yeah big ten who broke Michael Phelps men's 400 meter individual medley world record and by how much ding ding ding ding I know French swimmer Leon Marchand broke the record at the 2023 world aquatic championships beat it by 1.34 seconds that's it my world record was beat me too that's why I don't have any because I just don't want to be you just know it's so temporary it's just you're too Buddhist to care about such things no I definitely care about winning records so I'll go like I said but remember your reboot is last year when white lotus was out yeah I come I dip in an out you dip in an out okay okay all right love you love you

2:01:45you