Am I Letting My Jealousy Ruin This?

0:00Hi, Stair. I'm 41 years old and I'm calling with a personally heart-wrenching case of should I stay or should I go. In regard to a man I've been seeing for almost two years, he and I met on a sort of casual dating app and went into it very casually and learned that he is married and that he and his wife were are no longer sexual or romantic in that way, but they are living together, share a bed. They co-parent an eight-year-old boy, just like I do with my ex-husband, with whom I do not share a bed. And she is very open and encouraging a lot of this and never in one million years would I have seen myself making a way into this kind of a dynamic. But this gentleman and I have very strong feelings for each

1:06other and he and I go on dates every week to two weeks and they're absolutely incredible from our chemistry as friends and humans not to mention that I'm having the best sex of my life like full stop and he is emotionally secure and available to me in a way that I've frankly never had in 41 years. I also have been stuck in these endless questions all the time because there's a big part of me that does love being single. Like when I first got divorced, I'll never forget that feeling of I can do what I want, I can be who I want to be and yet I crave that idea of stability and marriage again and it's this constant push and pull and I don't even know

2:10if I would want to be married to him and yet it does not prevent some real pain, some real pain that I feel around feeling like just jealous of he and his wife or partner who is lovely. I would just so so appreciate and love the chance to talk through this video so thank you so much for listening. Rinse knows that greatness takes time, but soda's laundry. So rinse will take your laundry and hand-deliver it to your door, expertly cleaned and you can take the time pursuing your passions. Time one spent sorting and waiting, folding and queuing, now spent challenging and innovating and pushing your way to greatness. So pick up the Irish flute or those calligraphy pens or that daunting beef Wellington recipe card and leave the laundry to us. Rinse, it's time to be great.

3:38Wow, that was easy. Stitch Fix, online personal styling for everyone, take your style quiz today at StitchFix.com I think what's very strange to me about all of this that I mentioned is that I would never have imagined myself getting sort of entangled in something like this. I've always, when I've been on the apps and seen these ethically non-monogamous people, you know, like I always don't swipe on this people because it seems complicated and something I don't want to get caught up in. And he did not list himself that way, but he was very honest when we met and they're not sexual, right? So he's sexually monogamous with me and that has been how my brain has been able to sort of make this work, right? Meaning how, tell me how you put the puzzle together?

4:44So I feel like there's something special that we have together and I realized that that could very much be the case with or without him having sex with other people, but it protects some element of it for me where I feel like he is committed to me, you know, and sometimes I think it's so silly because he's also married and he's sleeping in the same bed with his wife, but they are not sexual. So he has family monogamy with her and sexually monogamy with you. Yes. Yes. And it's tied up in a lot. It's tied up in like, I think, jealous, there's just a raw jealousy that I think a lot of people in these relationships with multiple parties happens to them, but then there's also this, but your jealousy is about

5:47the monogamy of his family that they come first, that you cannot enter into that space, that tell me a little bit what the arrangement is so far and what is the jealousy because it can be about something very precise, right? So I very much relate to his family coming first. So I also have an eight-year-old and divorced and it's funny because the last person I dated didn't have children and he totally did not understand, like, my kid comes above all else. So that I were very much relate to. I get jealous thinking of them sleeping in the same bed, he and his wife. So that's nice. Yeah. And also their general family life because I don't have it and it's not that I don't have it with him, but it's that I don't have it, you know.

6:48So, yeah. So when I see the beauty of his family, it reminds me of the family that I no longer have. Yeah. Sorry. No, nothing to apologize for. That part is very raw for me. And this whole side that is there and gets tied up in what is really a beautiful thing in many ways. What is your arrangement with the father of your child? We are good friends, actually. We were friends for many years and then we got married, had a child and very quickly had our first fight that became the reason we got divorced,

7:48which was you made that one fight stand out so special that I couldn't resist being curious about. It was over sleep training with our son and it was something very small, but I realized I had never sort of stood ground and had been contorting myself honestly to prevent any and all conflict in our relationship. You know, there had never been conflict and I sort of just stood my ground and there was a complete unraveling and he wanted a divorce and it was so crazy, but we both instantly flipped into we're putting our son first and thankfully my ex-husband had the context of his parents having divorced when he was young and did a really good job of putting him first. It's very fluid like our son has never known anything different and I'm very proud of that.

8:56But it's also another one of these things where I do like spending Christmas with my son and his dad and sometimes when I play out this idea, well, what if I were with somebody full-time monogamous again? That would be hard, right? Or I mean some people might not like that. Would it be fair to say when I am with the father of my child and my son and we are in family mode? There is no jealousy. When I'm alone, then I'm start to think about the family that my partner has and then I start to think that is what I miss because in fact you do have a family life. I don't feel that because there is some suppressed like emotional pain around my divorce that I just

10:00don't surface and yeah, I feel like it's other people's intimacy is just hard for me because I'm not intimate with anybody. So, I'm sorry. Let them flow. Let them flow. Let them stream down. I'm not intimate with anybody. Yeah, I have a very small like extended family where my dad was estranged from my dad which was a complicated situation. It was emotionally abusive to our family. My sister and I growing up and have a good relationship with my mom but it has its limits. Both daughters are estranged from him. For how long?

11:05Eight years right before my son was born right after I got married. That was a pretty crazy year but he basically blew up our lives. He and my mom had been married for 40 years and he came on one day and said I wanted to divorce and he emptied out their bank accounts and left her with nothing. We found out he'd been doing all these horrible things, leading a double life basically and in hindsight I think he was really kind of a sociopath. I don't think he had empathy and I spent my whole life trying to get his approval. It was very much the perfect type A child and my sister was the older rebellious one who he treated worse. He played us off each other. It was just a really tough childhood. Not as tough as a lot of people's but unpacking

12:12it as an adult. It was very eye-opening to me. I learned, like I learned about attachment theory for the first time a couple of years ago and I was like no. I thought I was over all that. It's here. If you're what you call him partner, boyfriend, lover? We call each other lovers. If you lover heard you say I am not intimate with anyone, how would he respond? He would probably put his hand on his heart and it would become sad. Because you're right, I am intimate with him. It's the only person that I really am intimate with beyond sexuality. He's the first man that I've ever had difficult feelings around

13:15that has been able to sustain it where it hasn't blown up because I had a meltdown or challenge something that was going on or made things difficult. For example, well this situation has been very hard for me, like grappling with these feelings of jealousy with this wife and I feel like I will have these sort of outbursts, you know, and I don't necessarily get angry but I do unravel and I'm like I can't handle this and sometimes I do contort it into something like you don't even want me anyway and you know just blow up and I assume that it's gone and he's gone because that's how it's gone in my relationships and I'm very conscious of that

14:16with the men in my life and he just keeps coming back for more like a golden retriever. He's just there, you know, and he's like that must be so hard and so it makes it like in many ways so wonderful, right? I feel like it's so good for me to view somebody that allows me to experience jealousy, even envy because one is for what we had and have lost and the other one is for what we've never had or not never but what we don't have but also experience the insecurity that it's not what you have, it's how it instantly connects to what I feel I don't have and so because I don't have one thing I experience it as well then I better have nothing

15:24because if I can turn it into I'll be the one to set this up to end then at least I feel a little bit more in control. I don't feel in control over the relationship as it is but I can be in control over the dissolution of the relationship and he doesn't let you play with that. No, okay and you have fixated on the share bed, the share bed, the share bed and that becomes that image that you interpret as they have intimacy, they have something I don't have. You can see how you put the pieces of your puzzle together. I talked to me about what is their arrangement and who are you for them? You're telling me who he is for you, I don't know much about her, I don't know if your children have ever met, I don't know if this is a marriage also not just a marriage, coming together more accurately of two people or of two units. What is the arrangement? What is your relational arrangement

16:33at this point and is it a by default or is it actually by design? So there was no crossing for quite a while. We met quite casually through this app and I don't think either of us was expecting the level of connection that we developed and he presented himself as married and described the situation that is he and his wife are wonderful partners and very good friends. They lost the sexual spark at some point and decided to stay together and co-parent and raise their child in their home and both of them have a separate erotic life. She didn't for some time, it sounded

17:33like but now she does and I had not met her for a long time and eventually she said she wanted to meet me and so we had coffee together and just me and her and I was like if this is not progress against my anxious attachment style I don't know what is. I had this whole idea of her in my mind you know I've done this whole the ways that she's different than me, she's like the perfect homemaker and I'm not and you know all this stuff and instantly was just disarmed by her. She's also totally warm and genuine and cool and I could see that everything was very honestly she was like this is so great like he's in such a great mood all the time. He is crazy about you,

18:39we're so happy to have you in our lives. I went to their holiday party like a month or two ago which was hard but also one other weird part of me is like what if I was just a part of this fabric maybe this I mean do I have this in me to be one of these crazy people that I shouldn't say crazy people like securely attached people that can flex in relationships and she was so happy to have me there you know so I don't you know he doesn't talk about their relationship I think he's very you know protective of that and I appreciate that and I don't know what the future holds in store for them but it's like the jealousy the roger jealousy and insecurity it brings out is so

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21:43operations smoother it's time to turn those what ifs into which Shopify today sign up for your one dollar per month trial and start selling today at Shopify dot com slash is there go to Shopify dot com slash is there that's Shopify dot com slash is there yo Harvey Zoe group selfie oh nice new iphone 17 through ski let's do a triangle formation I'm in front with a center stage front camera everyone fits in the shot the guy that team mobile with switching takes forever not anymore now you can switch to team mobile in just 15 minutes okay as people nail your pose and you get a new iphone 17 on them your way yes way your way yes way guys switch to team mobile and get iphone 17 on us and right now we'll pay off your old phone up to 800 bucks I'm grabbing my phone and switching to team mobile right now get back Harvey we're taking off let's go again y'all with 24 monthly bill credits finance

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23:59I don't have a name for it the jealousy is so hard to pinpoint okay so you enter into me and I feel under threat I am in like fight or flight all right hold on one moment because you're still talking to me turn around and pick something any object that you can place to represent jealousy just look on your shelves and then just bring it toward you like physically bring it yeah yeah go get it all right can you show me okay it shows my Lego lucky cat and the reason you represent my jealousy is because anything any connection

25:05now it just felt like it just was drawn to it okay all right we're going to make it lucky okay maybe it'll be memorable that way I thought it's like a I find it a mental talisman all right you don't have to look at me but I want you to talk to actually it's less you talking to the jealousy first it's about listening how the jealousy speaks to you how it fills you what it does what it tries to preempt for you what threats it predicts what yeah all you know that part so well I'm thinking about it right now and if I'm talking to my jealousy right now it's all your jealousy's talking to you the jealousy talks to me yeah what does it say

26:07it's very mean it's very mean it tells me that I am number two and that I'll never be someone's number one and that I should get out while I'm ahead but it also tells me that that's like very powerful that's what I deserve and that is heartbreaking to me you know deserve as in you're not good enough to be it starts to attack and erode your sense of self worth yes and that is what I have been primed for you know like that was my dad's uncanny ability to come in any moment I started to feel good about myself and

27:12take me down which honestly comes up for me as terror like I think this negative self-talk this like when I'm being really mean to myself I can almost hear him and then I think I don't want to let him win you know like this is not serving me in any way who the hell do you think you are that kind of berating person reason standing out to me right now this thing he said to me one time what I was a teenager he told me I was the last person anyone ever wanted to see walk into a room and I sometimes feel like I just walk around feeling like and I am such a otherwise intelligent person that I can conceptually understand so much

28:16you know I mean I probably would win an award for the number of hours of Pemyshoge and Talks I've listened to but don't ask me to practice self-compassion okay it's like I it's powerful it's like feels it's in my body you know and so then you go like am I fighting something that I am never going to be or am I making it too hard for myself by trying to do this work so you know I had a a wicked thought may I just please share it with you because everything is kind of much together are you still holding it in your hand jealousy good keep holding it you see in a model of plural love primary or secondary doesn't necessarily carry the same meaning

29:24primary worth more secondary worth less it's not a rating system it's an organizational structural idea with your dad interestingly you were number one in fact your sister was number one on the attack line your experience with number one hasn't been particularly good you were his number one both of you and he was firing away you know a strange is a is a drastic radical decision eight years so we can't go into the details of that but I yet it doesn't happened out of nothing so you have been number one your idea of this fairytale that the number one is an elevated state is actually not what has been your life experience

30:30there is a way of thinking about relationships that is organized around exclusiveness and then you demarcate what makes this relationship by what it doesn't allow but what it doesn't allow in it excludes the other stuff and that's what defines it and so then you are the only one and then there is another way of thinking about relationships that involves specialness not exclusiveness but specialness and in that one you're never the only one necessarily but whatever you are especially in its own way so you go to this party and these people receive you you may not like the arrangement you may say I don't like complicated setups or multiple setups that's design and then you say that's not for me but then it doesn't come

31:37from a place of self-loading of being in this relationship is proof that I will not be claimed that nobody will choose me as their first as their one and only and that it is because I'm the last person people want to see walk into the room so there's a kind of a mixing of two stories here one that was indeed exclusive but vicious and one that is special but somehow activates this notion that if I'm not the only one if I'm not the primary one it's not because we have something else that ties us together it's because you don't want to do that with me yes is that a fair description it really is and it's a story that is not reflected

32:41really in the situation you know like I mentioned this in my message that I don't even know if we would be right together as being married or that's not what I even fantasize about really it's weird I mean he would be a wonderful partner and husband absolutely but it's more just this ambiguous here's a reason to feel bad but then I there's so many great things about it like that I've mentioned to you from a emotional standpoint of things I've been able to work through and then also just the joy of developing some intimacy with somebody that is also not laden with all of the rest of life and it's funny because I've tried to talk about this to some married

33:50friends they'll be like wow that is you've got to get out of that like run don't walk like you must be miserable half the time and like this is the recipe for disaster and then I'm like well how is marriage going because marriage is really hard to you know you gotta get out of what what is being reinforced that indeed you're a side gig yeah I think that's how they frame it and from the outside I can kind of see that but that's not how he makes me feel or frankly how she makes me feel his wife I feel like they want to bring me into their fold you know and he makes me feel very special he's the first man I've ever been with that is very comfortable just like openly

34:50complimenting me in this way that is so disarming to me you know would just be kissing or something it'll sit back and be like you are so beautiful and I don't know what to do with it and I realized I wasn't getting that before from other people and well what you do with that is first and foremost you save it yeah then you decide how important is this it's an important experience for me to have in a relationship it doesn't define a decision yes okay my question to you is do you feel like you need to make a decision or do you feel that other people are urging you to make a decision because you started out by saying you know shall I still shall I go and I'm listening to you

35:53telling me I'm caught between two stories two ways to interpret my reality in one version I experience myself as basically I'm experimenting with a very different kind of relational arrangement it is an ethically non monogamous or polyamorous arrangement it's new it does involve jealousy by the way that's okay it is also part of the erotic charge that there is a sense of where am I where do I fit in etc so the goal is not to avoid any jealousy the goal is to learn to live with it yeah the other narrative is I've been exclusive I've actually been many times a number one and my main experience is around that I've been not particularly kind which doesn't mean that therefore

37:03an exclusive relationship is by itself compromised but there are two narratives here and my question to you is do you feel an urgency to make a decision or do you feel that the people around you are urging you to make a decision or that there is a sense that you're being naive you're being incredulous you're going to get hurt what's the context who you know where's the Greek chorus here yeah it's almost like it's these like you know every once in a while I will have a pretty significant meltdown around this and think I can't do this anymore like this these feelings are too hard and what's really funny is that the small circle of people I've opened up to about this who were in monogamous relationships when I first went down this path were like get out and now multiple couples have opened up their marriages and suddenly they're like

38:08go get it you're living the dream yeah but they don't know the nightmare and the nightmare is that by putting myself in a situation where I experience the need to prove myself the need to make myself be more wanted the feeling that I am competing with another reality that is better than mine throws me right back into my relationship with my dad in which I hear all these etched inside my body sentences of every time I try to what did you say when his love or be approved by him it only made me feel worse about myself because the whole thing was predicated on it not being possible yeah he needed me to be one down yes so I have a relationship now that evokes that for me yeah are they all do

39:14they all do okay so it doesn't even matter which boundary system you're living in or which identity system you're living in this at some point the question of am I worthy will I be replaced would you notice if I need you would you be there if I need you can you take it if I am messy you know I use this example like my ex-boyfriend I dated for three years and I had he never was with me what I didn't have shaved legs I told somebody that recently and they were like what but I'm like that is something I learned from my mother and the way that my dad commented on our appearance you know my whole life to be to keep it together you know so what does messy mean afraid

40:23afraid like angry like showing emotions that they don't want to hear that men don't want to hear and you get angry when you're afraid the more you're afraid they would leave the more you kick them out and you think that when I'm afraid I'm going to scare them they're going to think I'm impossible to be with yeah I'm thinking out loud I need you to yeah that I you know get if I get angry or you know I felt like this gentleman that I've been seeing I introduced him to a friend of mine and I thought that they were being sort of flirtatious with each other and I am super tuned into that and it actually makes me mental and I melted down about it you know and I thought this is the end because I don't get angry at men like

41:23I don't I've it's very difficult for me to conjure that and so when I melted down about that I thought that's the end of that that's the end of that meaning he's not going to want to be with somebody who flares up like this who loses her shit yes who is so insecure who sees the slightest thing and starts to turn it into a whole saga yeah and that night I was so elevated like how bad does it get the jealousy thing when I experience that if I see flirtatious green-eyed monster it is a monster in real life if I see it if I see flirtatious it is a monster and it's crazy it feels like betrayal it's threat you know and he was like that was absolutely not my intent but

42:27I'm so sorry and what does it say to you at that moment when it sees the flirtation it is as you should be angry at this guy because he is not prioritizing you and he will you know fall at the first sign of female attention that he gets you know and then and then what are you you know you're just like any other woman in the room to him also like with it it's like also fighting me like why are you fit why are you doing this like you're thinking so small like some women would find it hot that their man could flirt like this and that other women were attracted to him and they would have fun with it so not only are you just

43:28like all these other women in the room like you're worse because you can't roll with this and give him a fucking break because he's a nice person and it's not intentional but it feels like he's stabbing me in the heart like it is so raw it's so powerful we are in the midst of our session there is still so much to talk about we need to take a brief break so stay with us this is advertiser content from i'm spet food welcome to cat chat the only podcast for cats by cats my name is hero and i'm pickle how have you been hero honestly pickle i haven't been feeling like myself lately i've just been so sluggish and i've well i've gotten a little chunky can i be vulnerable for a second always cat to cat

44:34i was feeling the same way let's face it as we get older staying active isn't always easy did you know over 60 percent of us indoor cats are overweight that makes so much sense but guess what my human and i made some simple changes just two 15-minute play sessions a day helped get my zoomies back plus she's been feeding me i'm the healthy weight cat food it's packed with protein and fiber to help me stay full and it's got elk carnitine to help support my muscles i thought you've been looking fit thank you thank you all right let's take a break as always don't forget to rate review and knock something off the shelf today you can help keep your furry friends healthy and thriving with i'm's healthy weight cat food now available online and at your local retailer learn more at i'm's.com watch march madness on cds with the paramount plus premium plan with this limited time offer now through march 31st get the paramount plus premium plan for just $2.99 for your first two months

45:36head to paramount plus to pick your plan and get in on march madness now starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify they have the tools you need to start and grow your business from designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond Shopify can help with everything you need there's a reason millions of companies like motel hines and all birds continue to trust and use them with Shopify on your site turn your big business idea into sign up for your one dollar per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer and is there a connection between the rawness of feeling that bereft and enraged and how much you try to shave your legs at home how much you used femininity to cool attention how much you worked on appearance

46:36and appearance and appearance as in pleasing that yes and emulating mom or doing the opposite I had my moments it was weird because I also was like a huge feminist when I was younger thanks to my sister and had all these I was very entrepreneurial and ambitious which was not like my mom was more like my dad who was an entrepreneur but the need for approval and how I reacted to men in authority position to me was like the constant and I was very in tune with all the little how to please how to seduce yes yes and so

47:37when you see the flirting on the other side you are competing with her yes I'm competing with her and her being the other woman yeah yeah and at the home did you look down to your mom as in she has no strength no power no seductive caches I can do better I belong to the group of the people who are on top I identify with the man I'm the entrepreneur too I can best aim at their own game oh that's an interesting thing I it was very complicated because we felt so bad for my mom because he prayed on her too but we didn't want to be like her no and he was always in my year whispering that I was his favorite like was telling me that and so the thing is he put

48:41down and she was a stay-at-home mom so she was not going to go out and learn languages and get a full ride to college and you know do all that you did you know that still was not enough shocker nothing will not that is it's not meant to ever reach the criteria but you feel bad for mom you notice the weakness of mom her despondency but you suddenly also know I don't want to be like mom I don't identify with mom so I identify with him and so I internalize his voices inside of me the good and the bad and you know you've done enough in in our work to know that this is this is a cluster fuck right and a part of you then says I'm going to best him at his game I'm

49:45going to become the best seductress that's where the number one comes in I'm going to be better than all those other women because to be a number one you need to compete against somebody you don't compete against the man the woman is the the pivot of this type of triangular dynamic and they need to be women that are more powerful so that they keep pushing you to do more more more and they need to be women who are weaker this is the language of this kind of dynamic it's actually very unneunced for that matter so so many other aspects to each person but everybody becomes just either top or bottom guess do you ever think I could stay with my lover and maybe at some point also marry I do in the creativity of multiple different kinds of relationship constellations you know it's not like this needs to end for something else to start I don't know that that's what you want but I want you to switch if you can from the default position to the design position

50:55from the victimhood from the I'm not chosen from the I'm not worthy today what actually is the life that I would like to live responsibly creatively and responsibly I really liked what you were saying about the stories like that there's a couple of stories happening here and the story of embracing this path this thing that I like about it is that it reminds me a lot of my younger self and I have been a very adventurous ambitious person I used or it's a I'm talking about a different person it's very weird okay because I I can be very brave but emotionally in like these interpersonal relationships I feel like I've been very held back by

51:57these old demons you know the way I'm imagining on the very little that you've told me you see when you have a father in your case it's the father okay who prays philanders lies and bezels etc etc and you know it's a bad behavior but the status of this person still feels and in some wicked way better than to be the victim of all of this as the daughter you're in a bind you care for mom but you don't want to identify with mom mom being woman mom being feminine but it's the woman it's not just the mother it's the woman you don't want to be that kind of woman and so being number one becomes this kind of

53:03default position that says I'm not the reject the second choice that's the way the mind of that little girl often develops this narrative is the only way to not be that weakling rejected humiliated made fun of cheated on is to be like him in terms of his power maybe not in terms of his sociopathy but so in terms of his father he's the number one he makes he makes the decision so it is it's an impossible bind I don't want to be like him because he's not a very attractive person and I don't want to be like her but I want to be with the power that he has in order not to have to be like her and what is the tool I can use to have his power is the seductive tool

54:04yeah what do you take with you from our conversation I hope that I would get some different looks at this from the standpoint of the stories like the story that is I'm telling myself it's being told to me that I jealousy is telling me and I very much feel like I have gotten that and that puts me in this position of feeling like I can talk back to it I've been conversation with a a narrative about what's happening here where would you like to put this jealousy the piece that represents it where should it be put in your house bearing it in the backyard is probably not the right answer it either needs to get buried in

55:07the backyard or put in the middle of the mantle okay all right would you would you do is there's a there's a sense which one feels more conducive the mantle yeah all right go get up and go put it there and then we'll say goodbye okay I'll be right back yep all right so it would be there in the middle of the mantle ready for any conversation so we'll our conversation which is now wrapped around this what you call it my lucky cat you lucky cat and turn to it when you need to talk oh when you need to listen differently but have it be outside of you

56:13it's so pretty powerful in the living room it was always there but now it has a different symbolism if you want you can have a little ritual with it on a daily basis or a weekly basis and you come and you know you can reflect with it but you want to sort out the stories they're bleeding into each other and they're making your life too confused thank you so much for this is such a such a joy thank you all right and bye bye this was an ester calling a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points

57:15somewhere in the world if you have a question you'd like to explore with ester could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call send a voice message and ester might just call you send your question to producer at ester apparel.com where should we begin with ester apparel is produced by magnificent noise we're part of the vox media podcast network in partnership with New York magazine and the cut our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Ann original music an additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of where should we begin our ester apparel and jesse baker we'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul