Afd win poses challenge for German democracy

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. When you think of Dubai, you likely imagine luxury hotels and list shopping malls, a resort-style oasis in the middle of the desert, right? Well, earlier this year, that image seemed to come crashing down. I must my call it host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. During the ongoing US-Israel war with Iran, the UAE, home to Dubai, has been attacked by Iran more times than any other nation. For more, check out the Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Available now on the documentary from the BBC World Service. Russian is the first language of millions of Ukrainians, but it's also the language of their enemy and its public use is now heavily curtailed. Does that prevent the spread of Russian influence or is it to deny of the very liberty Ukraine's fighting for, join me Tim Huell to hear from both sides in the language battle? Listen now by searching for the documentary wherever you get to your BBC podcasts.

1:10Hello and welcome to NewsHour. It's coming to you live from the BBC World Service Studios in Central London. I'm Tim Franks. 24 hours ago, the word on many people's lips in Germany and well beyond was seismic. As they greeted the news that the far-right AFD had scored such a socking victory in a statewide election in eastern Germany. If it was an earthquake yesterday, today it's been all about the continuing aftershocks. The AFD won almost 44% of the vote, just short of an outright majority. Normally, given Germany's long experience of government by coalition, that would mean the AFD would have no problem about taking over the considerable powers that had devolved German states. But because of a long established firewall, as it's called, maintained by almost all other parties, certainly all the mainstream parties, that is not a given. The big question now is whether the firewall can indeed should survive. First,

2:10though, that shock I was talking about, you could hear it on the streets of the state capital Magdeburg today. It's not a given that the AFD would do any better. But they have not even been given a chance to try yet. We can't forget that. And what's happened so far has been caused by the established parties, not the AFD, as people keep saying now. They're not to blame for what's happened. So I think they deserve a chance. I think it's absolutely dreadful. I didn't expect such a shocking result either. I was pleased to see so many people out and about going to vote. But the wrong ones were there too. And what lies ahead for us now is going to be terrible. And you could also hear the shock as hollowed, hollow eyed German Chancellor Friedrich Mertz from the center-right CDU took to elect him today. I can tell you, we are all deeply shocked.

3:14We did not expect it to turn out like this. We must, of course, accept it. Those are the rules of our democracy. But yesterday marked a turning point, not only in Saxony and Holt, but throughout Germany. And this election result will have consequences. It also has implications for the international situation. If one looks simply at who offered their congratulations yesterday, it shows the attention this election result is receiving internationally. As for the AFD, well, it is triumphant. And the party's deputy leader, Beatrix von Stork, told the BBC she believes that the AFD will soon become the voice of the majority across Germany and an irresistible force. People are just tired of this leftist, focused social politics. So it's not only for migration politics that people think we are the most competent. It's also on economics and all the other areas. This is the beginning. We will have another regional elections in two weeks. And then there will be a huge debate about Mertz, our chancellor. This is whether he can run the country any longer or not, because they

4:17realize that their numbers are breaking apart. So what are that question about cooperation now with the AFD? Is it time for a rethink? Andreas Röder has been urging one. He's professor of contemporary history at the University of Mints and a long time member of the CDU, the Christian Democrats. He resigned from a senior role in the party in 2023 over the issue. What's his argument for dismantling the firewall? I mean, what we experienced in Zacksen Unheard yesterday was that the electors blew up the firewall. And this marks not only a landslide victory for the AFD, the first real landslide victory for the party, but at the same time it creates an identity crisis for the mainstream parties, because the firewall has become something like a symbol of identity of the mainstream parties for years now. And so this creates an identity crisis. And it

5:18creates a crisis particularly for the center-right CDU because the CDU is the pivotal party in the German political system. And it has to react to this new constellation. The CDU was having a resolution of incompatibility with the AFD as well as with the far left party delinquent. I understood and I hear what you're saying about this sort of the idea that this and another unwieldy coalition would be rather incompatible for what most voters would like. However, you say voters blew up the firewall. A majority of voters did not vote for the AFD and they knew very well that those mainstream parties had this policy of not cooperating with the AFD. So you could actually argue that most people voted not for the AFD to go into government. I would say it's slightly differently because the AFD 144% and the so-called Wündnis

6:28Zara Wagenknecht, the populist left-wing party, won another 5.2%. And this is the party which announced in advance that it opposed the firewall and that it might be willing that the left-wing populist might be willing to support a right-wing populist prime minister of the state of Saxony and if you count them together, the Wündnis Zara Wagenknecht and the AFD, they do have a majority over all other parties. So you could say there is a majority. So what about the issue of principle though for your party, the CDU, you're still a member and obviously, you know, Priduch Merz is the German Chancellor. I mean, among the many arguments is that the AFD, that in fact the Saxony branch, the state branch of the AFD has been classified as right-wing extremist by Germany's domestic intelligence services. These are people with whom it is

7:29dangerous to cooperate. That is the argument. Yeah, this is what the service says, but at the same time you do have to say, this service is a political institution which gets its commands from the ministry. And apart from that, I would say, we are having a problem in Germany in coping with the AFD because people are always saying that saying that the AFD is dangerous, that it is counter-constitutional, that it does want to abandon democracy. But what people not do is to go to the constitutional court and to seek a judgment by the constitutional court, which would be the regular way in the German political system. And I would say if the AFD is really anti-democratic, anti-constitutional, clarified by seeking a judgment of the constitutional court. But I wonder if it is to be clarified.

8:34People should just look at the evidence, the plain evidence in front of them, the fact that there are so many members of the AFD, senior members of the AFD who flirt openly with neo-Nazi, either openly neo-Nazi members or neo-Nazi slogans who don't apologize for past behavior, who talk about close relations with Moscow. And indeed, the Russians, senior people, very close to Vladimir Putin, seem to be rejoicing in what the AFD is doing. I mean, this is the plain evidence that the AFD is a threat. Which in part is true for the Bündnis-Sarawar ethnic nation and the party D. Lincoln as well. I mean, right wing and left wing populist parties do share those positions. And the question is, do voters vote for the AFD because of those attitudes or instead of them? And obviously, as far as we know, and if we look at the voters not at the office holders of the AFD,

9:38or the functionaries, if we look to the voters, they seem to be so disappointed about mainstream politics in Germany. They feel to be not seen not to be heard so that they instead of that vote, out of disappointment, vote for the AFD. And this is a problem of the mainstream parties. And that was Professor Andreas Röder. The United Nations says about 19 million Nigerian children who should be getting an education and missing out more than any other country. One of the factors is the threat of school abduction. Some parents are simply too scared to send their children to class. Yermisi Adagoki has traveled to Northwest Nigeria. So we've just arrived at the school and the senior girls are out in the courtyard. They're wearing bright green uniforms and it's raining a little bit but they're just carrying on my

10:41godness. One of the pupils singing and dancing here ahead of the end of school is Hanatu. Like many teenage girls hearing this out in Northwest Nigeria, she's nervous about her exam results. The BBC has followed Hanatu's story closely ever since a shocking life-changing incident. I remember it often. It makes me feel sad and I cry. Reports say a large number of schoolgirls have been abducted after gunmen stormed a government school and kidnapped them from their dormitories. This part of Nigeria has been plagued by motorbike riding gangs of bandits who abduct people for ransom. In Zambara State almost half a million children are out of school, partly driven by fears over abductions. After the attack Hanatu spoke to BBC Africa Eye.

11:41We heard conshots, people crying for help and shouting. Here come the bandits. About five of us ran and locked ourselves in the toilet. There were about 350 students in the school but only 32 of us escaped. Umu was another pupil at the school and was one of those abducted. She now studies early childhood education at a nearby university but she was deeply affected by the incident. I had a month's voice shouting, come out, I'll kill you. I was thinking that the old kids killed us. Nearly 300 girls were taken. They were eventually freed but it's disputed as to whether a ransom was paid for their release. But the girls school remained closed, threatening their futures. Nigeria already has one of the highest rates of out of school children in the world. Lissing out on education can have devastating consequences especially for girls.

12:44Here's Toviumoy from the Illymi Children's Fund. We are not educated, you don't have a choice, you don't have a C in how your life, the cost of your life. For example if they say or you need to get married, at that point you don't even understand what marriage entails. After the BBC filmed with Hanatu and Umu, donors reached out via the Illymi Children's Fund. They offered to help some of the girls affected. This allowed them to attend a secure school in the state capital. Both Hanatu and Umu now dream of careers where they can help others. I want to be a doctor so I can help the community and my relatives and the people that have supported me. I want to be educated so I can help people in the way I have been helped. I want God to grant me the ability to help people like my mom and other people in need. The attack on their old school changed their lives but Hanatu and Umu are determined that it

13:47will not define them. And that was Yomisee Adaguki reporting from Nigeria. This is the BBC. Coming up on New South, the weather forecaster who persuaded allied leaders to change the date of the D-Day landings in 1944. The atmosphere was almost unbearably tense, unearivicable decision had to be made. I had long had at the back of my mind the tactical use of weather. I had hoped that just such a set of circumstances would come about. More on the man who shaped one of the big moments in World War II. That's coming up in just a few minutes. Our main headline is what we've been talking about at the top of the programme. Chancellor Mert says he's shocked by the far right AFD's decisive victory in state elections in Saxony and helped describing the result as seismic. And staff at the Eiffel Tower have gone on strike after

14:52management acquiesced to demands from a conservative Hindu organisation that the tourist landmark be a woman free zone for their visit. This is New South, it's life in the BBC with me Tim Franks. Latvia, one of the former Soviet states bordering Russia, but now in the European Union and NATO, it's long warned about Moscow's malign influence, indeed, since the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine of the outright threat posed to the Baltic states. Today the Latvian government took its next step and tried to thwart that danger by banning the imported books and newspapers from Russia and its close ally Belarus. Bina Brasya is Latvian for a minister? Why has the government introduced the ban? Well, because we regularly look through the imports from Russia and Belarus and the dynamics of it.

15:52So this is not such a big type of import. We have also put it up for the use of sanctions. So it's only 12 and a half million, so it's not a big number. But actually, you were talking about $15 million, okay, right? But actually, when we look at it, why would someone need to import books from Russia or Belarus, two alteritarian regimes, all papers, newspapers for that, if there is a need to buy anything like that, there is sufficient stuff here locally or elsewhere in the EU. So that's the main thinking, because you can also have propaganda, you can have other security sensitive issues, so there's actually security aspects to all of that. Okay, but it's just to be clear, it's a blanket ban on all this material coming in. Is it all Russian books? Because I'm just wondering, I mean, you say why is there a need to get any books from Russia? But I mean, you can imagine,

16:54obviously, Russia has a glorious civilization. You can be appalled by what the present government is up to. But I mean, if there were a sort of fantastic new edition of a Tolstoy novel or Pushkin poetry, they can be published elsewhere. They don't have to be important. But it's about the fact that they're coming from Russia. So I'm just trying to be clear about this, then, is this an economic embargo, or are you concerned about propaganda? Because hence my question about Pushkin or Tolstoy or Dostoyesky or whatever. Well, it's on the basis on specific customs codes. So those come the books from Russia, the books from Belarus. So it's not about authors or something. So it's just in the current conditions, you know, in the 50 year of the war, Russia is waging in Ukraine. That is a pretty straightforward. But you will also be aware that look, you know, there is a counter argument here, which is that a quarter of your country, Seedemsel's as ethnic Russians, you obviously very proudly

17:59see yourself call yourself a democracy, which indeed you are, that this is there's something that feels a little sort of unfree and anti-democratic about when you get into at least the optics of banning books. Now, we ban imports. We don't ban books. I'm sorry, there's a big difference. As for the Russians here, we don't divide Latvian citizens in some type of groups. They are all Latvian nationals. As for the Russian citizens, there is below 40,000 of those living in Latvia. And those are some who have been living here for a long time and some who have received shelter from us after the start of the war. As for languages and discussions and, you know, what people use in private life, I can speak Russian myself. Does it make me a Russian speaker? I don't know. If people want to read books, they're most welcome to read books. If they want to read papers, it's all available. This is a free as democracy. This is there.

19:02Well, on that, I mean, and I, you've already acknowledged that you're hoping that this might be taken up by the rest of the European Union because obviously, you can't close your border against imports from the rest of the EU. So, were, you know, those Russian imports to when they're way in from elsewhere in the EU. There's nothing you could do about that. But the other big thing, obviously, is that these days, lots of people gain access to printed information through the internet. People's private lives are people's private lives, but at the state level, we consider, I was an absolute majority of the parliament, that importing books from Russia or books from Belarus in the current geopolitical conditions is something that is not needed. Lapium Forum is to Biber, Brasger. Now, loathes, I am to talk about national stereotypes, especially on the BBC World Service. I think you will allow me this, that one thing British people through the ages seem to love talking about is the weather. And this week sees a new film about

20:07what is a good claim to be the most important weather forecast in British history. It was the forecast that gave the go ahead for D-Day, on the 6th of June 1944, that huge, allied amphibious invasion of Nazi-occupied France. The story behind that event, and the man on whose shoulders it fell, James Stagg, has been turned into a movie starring Andrew Scott. David Sillato went to meet him on board a famous D-Day veteran. It's a film about D-Day, but more specifically, one man's contribution. The atmosphere was almost unbearably tense, an irrevocable decision had to be made. This is the voice of James Stagg. I had long had at the back of my mind the tactical use of weather. I had hoped that just such a set of circumstances would come about that we should have been on the 5th of June. James Stagg and RAF meteorologist told General Eisenhower to postpone the invasion.

21:10I need a forecast. If you invade tomorrow, they're going to be washed away. There's a reason this film is called pressure. Why should I trust you? We must face the facts. The facts! I'll have a frightening baby! 82 years on I met Andrew Scott, the man now playing James Stagg. He appeared to me to be an extraordinarily interesting cinematic character, as well as a an unsung hero from history. I really enjoyed the way that he was not interested in ingraceating himself with anybody. He's a bit chilly. He's chilly. He's definitely very chilly. A very fourth-white, very direct and completely obsessed with the weather and not afraid to speak truth to power. It's almost impossible to understand the level of jeopardy. One man is under. Oh, absolutely. The stakes were so enormously high. It's wonderful that we can pay tribute to him in this way all these years later. 80 years later, suddenly.

22:12Yeah, there he is. He's a movie hero. Exactly. I don't think he'd enjoy that very much. I tried not to be afraid of the fact that perhaps at the beginning of the audience might be like, who is this guy? And hopefully by the end, we understand his motivations and his inner workings. What do you make us, Stagg? Churchill says he's a genius. Man are too fond of that word. James Stagg's warning to the man in charge, General Eisenhower, saved the day. But it wasn't what Eisenhower wanted to hear. Speaking truth to power is a big thing in this, isn't it? Yeah, huge, huge, huge thing. Might be a thing to take on board today. Well, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And the celebration of experts. Yeah. And talking of experts, the film features archive material and employed a number of researchers, one of whom happened to have a familiar name. So some people were employed to sort through this archival footage and somebody came in and his name was Stagg

23:14and had no idea what the nature of the movie was. He said, what was it? That's my grandfather. So completely serendipitously. He didn't know. He didn't know. He didn't know. So yeah, he was. We do research that worked towards the movie. Yes. Yeah. Completely wonderful. Yeah. There's something in the air. There isn't air. Something's in the air. So yeah, that was really wonderful. Yeah. Wild civilian written sleeps. History's great history is being written. And at the end, when D. Day succeeded, because of that prediction of a brief break in the weather, it was all over, a brief but intense moment in an epic struggle. Now the world of free men strikes in all its assembled might at the weakening chains of bondage. News report over the D. Day landing said that were crafted by James Stagg. When you think of Dubai, you likely imagine luxury hotels and list shopping malls,

24:15a resort-style oasis in the middle of the desert, right? Well, earlier this year, that image seemed to come crashing down. I must my call it host of the Global Story Podcast from the BBC. During the ongoing US-Israel war with Iran, the UAE, home to Dubai, has been attacked by Iran more times than any other nation. For more, check out the globalstory on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Available now on the documentary from the BBC World Service. Russian is the first language of millions of Ukrainians, but it's also the language of their enemy and its public use is now heavily curtailed. Does that prevent the spread of Russian influence or is it a denial of the very liberty Ukraine's fighting for, join me Tim Hueh to hear from both sides in the language battle? Listen now by searching for the documentary, wherever you get to your BBC podcasts. What if I told you that most of history's underwear wasn't remotely close to the underwear you're wearing right now? Hi, I'm Greg Jenner, host of your Dead To Me Podcast, and we're back with a brand new season.

25:20And if you're a fan of fashion trends of the past, you'll love our newest episode on the history of underwear. We explore how our underwear has changed throughout history, and whether TV depictions of regency era ladies in their lacy underwear are truly accurate. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Your network was successfully breached by Comt team. One of the most notorious gangs of hackers that ever existed. All of your files were encrypted with military-grade algorithms, making our outrageous demands. Let them pay millions. I'm Jeff White and I'll take you inside a business like no other, where cybercriminals piled up the cash until divisions grew, and somebody took revenge. Glory to Ukraine! Cyberhack season four, the Conti Files, all episodes available now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Welcome back to news air.

26:21Kiev is suffering more daily air raid alerts than at any time since Russia's full-scale invasion in 2022. That's according to our own BBC analysis of government figures. There was a brief pause in attacks over the weekend while USM boys were in the Ukrainian capital, but in recent weeks, Russia's round-the-clock attacks with new faster drones have forced people to head for shelter many times a day. A diplomatic correspondent, James Landel, has this report from Kiev. We've come to the scene of another strike right in the heart of Kiev, and it's a familiar scene of building, smoking, is the fire caused by what we think was a drone. Lots of security nearby. Fire engines trying to put the fire out. Crowds forming, but here's the difference. This is broad daylight. This strike has not happened in the middle of the night. It happened shortly before 11 in the morning. This is now part of a pattern that's forming of more and more attacks during the day. We can't stay more than three hours without a hair alert.

27:24Johann, a humanitarian volunteer, was meet as a way when the drone struck. It's not just about nights, it's about day now. Analysis of official figures by the BBC shows Kiev has suffered more daily air-raid alerts than at any time since the full-scale invasion in 2022, as many as 13 on a single day. And those attacks often now involve new jet-powered drones that are faster and harder to intercept. Yuri Ichnat is a spokesman for Ukraine's Air Force. He told me they're shooting down only 60 percent of the new drones, and they know that's not enough. Ukraine's key task now is to create an alternative interceptor, cheap weapons that can provide us with protection. On Ukraine's Midan Square, the sirens gone again. People are coming out, some are heading underground for safety and shelter, the staff are locking the door.

28:25They have to close up every time there's an alert, the siren. Some are clutching, sleeping bags, some are clutching mats. Their own drinks, just in case the raid goes on for a long time, a small snapshot showing just how disruptive these raids are. And it's happening again and again and again. We're outside a university in the centre of Kiev, and just as we were talking to people, yet another siren rang out across the sky, and all the students now are piling out, because this is what they have to do. Every time there's an alert, they stop their studying. Ifor is a chemistry student. I am not scared after four years of invasion. I'm used to your loans, but it destroys the quality of our education. We cannot study normally. The government is planning a new two-tier alert system to try to limit disruption. What it really needs is a better way of defending the capital,

29:26and it hasn't found it yet. And that was James Landau reporting from Kiev. Prime Minister James Landau This is news air, live from the BBC World Service, I'm Tim Franks. The funeral of the convicted war criminal, Rackholm Laddich, has taken place in the Serbian capital, Belgrade. last month at the age of 84 in a prison in the hage, where he'd been serving a life sentence for his role in genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. He'd been convicted of a key role in some of the darkest episodes in Europe, since the Second World War crimes committed during the war that accompanied the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s. Thousands of mourners gathered from Meladish's funeral at a Billgrade cemetery.

30:31Many Serb Nationalists see him as a hero even now. These people spoke about Meladish outside St. Luke's Church in Belgrade. I'm sad because of his death, but proud because he is a hero. I'm eternally grateful to him. It is important for me to be here because Meladish is the epitome of courage, honesty, and integrity. I'm grateful and want to honor him because he fought for us. For its part, the European Union, the club of European states, which Serbia has been in accession negotiations with for more than a decade, the EU issued a strong condemnation of today's ceremony in the Serbian capital. So how does opinion among Serbs divide over the memory of someone like Meladish? Helena Ivanov is an associate research fellow at the Think Tank, the Henry Jackson Society,

31:32and spoke to me from Belgrade. Look, clearly there is a subset of the Serbian population that perceives him that way. It's witnessed by the fact that thousands of people turned out today. Some of those people were interviewed by the local press and said that they believe he's a hero. Obviously we've seen the scenes from the football stadium yesterday. So red star, red star, Belgrade and partisan, Belgrade the two largest football clubs in Serbia that are at the biggest rivalry, but I guess they found one thing that unites them and that's their love for convicted work criminal. And they had a huge banner with his face and with a sign that said a direction pottertidy, which is exactly where genocide took place. But I would argue that that's not a representative of the Serbs. I think maybe thousands have appeared today, but hundreds of thousands have been appearing for the last two years on the streets of Belgrade, demanding change, demanding democratic forms, demanding accountability. And a lot of those people have actually been doing quite strong work to bring about reconciliation during the protests that were led by the students. We've heard a war veteran from the Army of Republic of Serbska deliver a speech in which he said he regrets everything that he has done, that

32:36he believes he was poisoned by the radio and television of Serbia's propaganda. That speech was delivered to a crowd that accepted that speech and delight. So I would want to argue that there is a huge set of the Serbian population that is against this that believes that the outcome, which is a war criminal, who believe that this is abhorrent, what has happened today in Belgrade. And indeed, many of those people from NGO sector to oppositional politicians, to ordinary citizens themselves have been tweeting the entire day that this is not the picture of Serbia and that what the government is currently doing today is not being done in their name. Myself included. It is, it goes beyond sort of bunch of football fans, doesn't it? I mean, you've got the president himself, Alexander Vucic, stayed away, but several ministers, the defense minister was there, you know, other people who've been not just pushing the idea that there needs to be a sort of revisionist history of the wars over the former Yugoslavia, but also pushing very strongly for, for example, I mean, you talk about people supporting a move towards the European Union. There are those around Vucic, who support the memory

33:42of Madic and who are pushing for stronger ties with Russia. Obviously, there is a subset of the Serbian population that goes beyond football, against that's in line with this. I think that's exactly why President Vucic felt that he must do the kind of funeral that we've seen today. Just today, the prime minister has announced the dissolution of the parliament, which means we're in for snap elections, likely the hardest snap elections that Vucic has been faced with in his entire rule. He is aware that his voter base does have a corner in which people believe that the Rottkumladić is a war hero and he feels that he cannot afford to lose those votes in the run up to these elections, which is exactly why he felt cornered that he has to do this kind of a funeral. At the same time, there is a part of his voter's base that maybe wants to see the Serbia-Join European Union. He also has a lot of people who vote for him for interests of investment, which again, they do not want to see the relationship with the West deteriorated. So Vucic's behavior should really be seen again as yet another balancing act. Helena, how far do you think that what you're talking about, which is in part Serbia's

34:43failure to come to terms with its terrible recent history, is also down to the fact that there is still a bit of a sense of its zero-sum game. So if you've got, for example, a feeling that there are parts of Croatia, which have not come to terms with the crimes that they also committed against ethnic Serbs, there's a sense of that's holding people back from wanting to have a serious accounting. I think exactly what you say right there is the reason why the post-Ugislaus space has been struggling with reconciliation ever since the end of the 1990s. Everyone is deploying this discourse of what aboutism. Last year when Tomson Croatia and Sagar known for celebrating Ustasha crimes was given a concert to half a million people in the city of Zagreb, which has 700,000 people living there, you could read a bunch of hardcore nationalistic Serbs saying, well, why should we accept our own guilt when Zagreb gets to do something like that? Likewise, when something like Ladić's funeral happens, that's the excuse that hardcore

35:44nationalists in Croatia uses and excuse to say, well, look, Serbs haven't changed. And I think that really it's been 30 years. If you factor in the legacies of World War II, it's been much more than 30 years. I think the time has really come for people to look into their own back yard. You know, I can't do much to change what's happening in Croatia or how Croatia is dealing with its own legacy. But what I can do is I'm a Serbian citizen. I can pressure my own government and my own institutions. And at the end of the day, just ordinary people that live in my surroundings to abandon these ideas of nationalism and of hatred to apologize for the horrible, horrible crimes that have been committed throughout the 1990s and to try and purge their own societies from these evil ideologies and evil people who are supporting these ideologies. Because for as long as there is this narrative until everybody else does it, we're not going to do it, no one's going to make a move. And there was Helena Ivenov from the Henry Jackson Society, speaking me from Belgrade.

36:4925 years after the attacks of September the 11th, new evidence is raising fresh questions about one of the men who helped to the hijackers after they arrived in America. BBC TV's investigative program Panorama has been looking at Omar Al-Biyumi, the Saudi national arrested by British British police, just days after 9-11, having recently left America. He was never extradited back to the United States, although compelling evidence against him was uncovered by British police and shared with the FBI. Here's Jane McMullan. It's a day that I would like to only think of my husband and we can't do that if the truth remains buried. Terry Stradd's husband Tom, with whom she had three children, was working in New York's World Trade Center when the attacks happened. I had a newborn in my arms, he was four days old. Tom went down the stairs, turned around and said, I'll be home by two, I love you. Tom was one of nearly 3,000 people who were killed that day.

38:01Within days of the attacks in which four planes were crashed, investigators had identified the 19 Al-Qaeda hijackers. Two of them, now our follhazmi in Khaled Ar-Midda, had lived for months in San Diego. The FBI quickly discovered that they had received help from a Saudi man called Omar Al-Bayumi. We needed to know everything about them. Danny Gonzalez was an FBI special agent. You focus on who helped them, who assisted them. It was a network, but when you see who's the principal of this network is Omar Al-Bayumi. Bayumi helped the two men secure an apartment, co-signing their lease. But before 9-11 he moved to the UK and 11 days after the attacks, British police arrested him in Birmingham. They took him to London where he was questioned for seven days. At first Bayumi denied knowing the hijackers.

39:03I don't have any link with any hijackers. But investigators already knew he had guaranteed two of the hijackers rent. Eventually he admitted to helping them after what he said was a chance meeting in Los Angeles. Bayumi claimed to be a student who had no links to extremists. But panoramas obtained Bayumi's personal videos, never broadcast before, a vanois al-Aulaki who would go on to lead Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. When questioned in 2021 Bayumi denied knowing Al-Aulaki. But the videos show them paintballing and also embracing it a meeting. After 9-11 the FBI uncovered evidence and information suggesting Bayumi might have been working on behalf of Saudi interests. Rick Lambert oversaw the FBI investigation in San Diego. It was a general consensus of people in the San Diego Muslim community that Bayumi was an operative of the Saudi intelligence service. He was a spy. He was a spy.

40:08Bayumi has always denied being a spy. British police also seized evidence from his Birmingham home, including a video he filmed around the capital building two years before the attacks. At the time Al-Qaeda was deciding which targets to hit. Bayumi later claimed it was tourism, but in it he talked about a plan. The police also seized a handwritten diagram of a plane with descent calculations. He is Jodi Westbrook Flowers, a lawyer representing the families of 9-11 victims, in a lawsuit against the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. I would have agreed to work with the police. Jeff Brineholt was an official at the Department of Justice. The flight designs and calculations is the worst, less the most inconvenient evidence for him.

41:11In my opinion, we've convicted people for less. When they found the diagram, the Met marked it up as top priority and handed it to the FBI. But neither the FBI nor the Met told the detectives interviewing Bayumi about it. He wasn't asked about the diagram while it was in custody. It's not clear why. FBI documents show it was decided there was insufficient evidence to extradite Bayumi to the United States. He was released and returned to Saudi Arabia where he remains. September 11th when it comes around every year. As they mark the 25th anniversary of the attacks, the families hope they can take their case against Saudi Arabia to a trial and get all the answers to what happened. The FBI declined to comment. While the US Department of Justice says it's unable to comment or matters and decisions from 25 years ago involving staff who no longer work there. The Metropolitan Police says it can't comment because of the ongoing legal case.

42:14Panorama attempted to reach Omar al-Bayumi through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of Islamic Affairs. Neither he nor the Saudi government responded to our request for comment. He has previously denied knowing that Hasmin Mithdar would go on to be hijackers, said the plane diagram was just an equation and denied any involvement in the 9-11 attacks. And that was Jane McCullan reporting in the week that we marked the anniversary, the 25th anniversary, of the 9-11 attacks. This is NewsHour. This is NewsHour coming to you live from the BBC World Service. Now for those of you who have joined us fresh from the Opera House or the concert hall you may want to turn the volume down. But in truth we're making absolutely no apology for the music we're about to play.

43:22Well that slice of magic comes courtesy of the off-key choir that is their proud name off-key, a group of 60 or so women in the north of England and their utterly beguining motto is just because you can't doesn't mean you shouldn't. In fact when the woman who set the choir up eight years ago put an ad in the local paper for members the notice read, if you can't sing come and join my choir. And more of the first people to do so was Mary Hefferen. I just become disabled and I was trying to kind of find the new me kind of you know what I could fit in to my life what could needs to be changed and I'd always enjoyed singing when I was at school and I thought oh I'd like to you know maybe look at going to a choir and I tried to or the choirs that well-per-memble they couldn't basically if there was an event on I couldn't take part in it with

44:25my wheelchair or my disabled aid they couldn't accommodate me. So I fell a bit deflated and somebody said oh there's a new choir that started why don't you try there. So a went and was greeted by Diane and straight away she was just go anywhere you want sit anywhere you want not a problem and I was just like oh right what about my chair and she was like just go anywhere you want wherever you feel comfortable you go so straight away I got this lovely feeling of wow she's seen me for me. Yeah she's seen you and she hasn't seen you wheelchair in other words. Absolutely yeah. And what sort of stuff have you been singing over the last few years? We range from all sorts of different songs gosh pop songs we just do a variety of everything from years and years ago to up to date. And has it always been called the off-key choir?

45:29Yes. Okay so as long as I know it has yet. Okay I mean I'm not trying to make a terrible pun here but you won't put off by the by the name. I wasn't know though the what actually made was really good that there was no auditions and she said oh no no we don't audition here it's you just come sing it doesn't matter if you can sing or not long she enjoys herself and you go away feeling happy that that's all we want and I was just like oh right okay great. But presumably if you've been planning you said that you've always enjoyed singing and if you've been planning to sing it otherwise I mean you I'm sure you can be very modest Mary but presumably you can hold a tune. Not really. Not not not very well. No I wouldn't like to do a solo put it that way. Okay well you know not many of us would. In numbers in numbers is always good. Yeah are there people again I sort of don't want this just to sound rude but are there people

46:34among your your fellow members of the off-key choir who you who you think can really sing or are you all a bit bit off. No actually I know it sounds crazy but when we're when we sing all together and we all say it we'll go actually we sound quite good altogether don't we? because that because that's wonderful because I was actually going to ask I mean whether and again I'm sorry it sounds a bit of a slightly question but I just I was wondering whether you sat if you would turn up to one of your concerts if you weren't one of your one of your gigs if you weren't singing. A couple of years ago we did a show for our family and friends and all our friends and family said wow you know what you really hard on yourselves you sounded really good. There was moments we were a little bit out of keyboard you know it doesn't matter we had a good fun at the end of the day and our friends and family enjoyed it. That's fantastic it sounds

47:37like you've been slightly misnamed I mean it's a great name actually the off-key choir. Do you have a pianist you sing along to a backing track how does it work? So what we do is Byron which is Diane Sors van, he does the music and he'll put up and for us our kind of music that's our theme song so to when we first chose that they'll put them up the words up we just have a little bit of backing music and then we sing and learn it from that way. Now we have done choir festival in Southport and different choirs come and we've been asked to go a few times now and when we've gone we've actually learned four songs off by heart with no words in front of us and we've done really well and of course we're up against choirs that are barbershop choirs and boo yeah people who fancy themselves oh I and you know you're coming out your comfort zones and you wouldn't really you know your heart's racing and you thinking oh my god

48:40I'm gonna sound terrible doing this but when you all do it together I don't know it's weird it's almost like you get wrapped up in this big org and we're all looking after each other and if we sound rubbish we sound rubbish we go wrong we go wrong it doesn't matter we've had fun it's so lovely to hear you say that I mean there are I think there are a few better things than making music with other people and and I say that as a you know completely amateur musician myself and and in fact you know I occasionally sing and acquire and I think I've got a I cannot hold a but it's just it's lovely isn't it it's such a lovely glow inside and it's you can feel the love in that room you know the support you get from everyone you know I've I've been very poorly and I've spent time in hospital and they've sent me videos all singing to me and wishing me well my husband's got terminal cancer we did a charity event and the choir were there all the way

49:42through that the support is just amazing I've made some great friends Mary Hefferen from the off key choir what a wonderful story she told and what a what an advertisement for the off key choir I don't think they sound off key at all I think they sound absolutely beguiling we'll play out this edition user with the off key choir Mary among them I'm just trying to hold it for even a special instance

50:49when you think of Dubai you likely imagine luxury hotels and list shopping malls a resort style oasis in the middle of the desert right well earlier this year that image seemed to come crashing I must my call it host of the global story podcast from the BBC during the ongoing US Israel war with Iran the UAE home to Dubai has been attacked by Iran more times than any other nation for more check out the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts