#715 - The Identity Problem: Why Talented People Underperform in Sales - 9/4/2026

0:00Thank you for joining us on the winning and selling podcast. I'm Bill Helkamp of Reach Development Systems and with me is speaker and sales trainer, Stephanie Hobble. It's not skill, it's not knowledge, it's identity, and when someone doesn't see themselves as a salesperson, they unconsciously self-sabotage, underpricing, over-delivering before the sale and avoiding the ask. Did you behavior without changing identity never sticks? So discover who's behind that mask. As Stephanie and I reveal the identity problem, why talented people underperform in sales and other esoteric encounters on episode 715 of the winning and selling podcast. Stephanie, I think your topic is going to line up with our book pretty well this week. Yes, Bill, it really does. And I think we could have planned it better in this period with chapter 9 of the inter excellence

1:01because it's all about the mental blocks and stopping people from performing at a level that they're actually capable of. And that's my entire topic today is why identity is the root cause of underperformance in sales. So you know, he talked about in the book, what about costume in the field and when that inner work hasn't been done. And what really struck me and we're going to have a conversation about here is the Steve Sack story in this chapter. And he was already rookie of the year proven decorated athlete, but one mistake got in his head so deeply that it nearly ended his career. So that was just fascinating to me about the subconscious. And that's what happens to salespeople every single day. And most people they never even have any idea that it's happening to them. Yeah, well, great. So before we get into the identity problem, let's examine chapter 9 of the inter excellence by Jim Murphy, unstoppable, how to overcome mental blocks, fears and phobias.

2:03From the top level, this chapter outlines techniques the author has used to help people overcome their mental barriers that seem to keep them from performing some previously routine tasks. These are things that people were good at. The Stephanie mentioned he uses example of professional ball player, Steve Sacks, who after making a couple of uncharacteristic errors, he was suddenly unable to make routine throws to other infielders. And it seems that the initial couple of errors, as she said, got into his head, he developed a mental block that affected his every move on the field. You know, I played a lot of baseball, my sons were all baseball players and you can't think. It's not again, you, you pre think. If I get the ball and I'm moving this way, what am I going to do with it? If I get the ball, who's the runner, how fast is he coming out of the box? Is he left handed? You pre think all these things, but when the ball hits, it's hit to you, you've got to make a sudden judgment. And I think, you know, we talk about overthinking, right?

3:04And that's really a problem for people. So now I found it hard to identify with people with this issue, Stephanie, because no one's ever accused me of overthinking. So I'm a very simple man. Maybe I'm too dumb to even recognize my own mental blocks, which can be a problem. So I could be oblivious to what's going on, but I know you relate to the issue that Jim Murphy is talking about. Yeah, absolutely, very deeply actually, Bill. And I think most sales people will once they understand what a mental block actually looks like in the sales world. So it's not always going to look like, you know, how Steve Sacks was like, all of a sudden suddenly becoming, you know, that paralyzed. It's oftentimes more subtle, more quiet than that. And it's like, it's like that sales person. They've given the presentation a hundred times. They know what they've done it. And then they bomb it once in front of a really important client or in front of a big crowd. And then all of a sudden, every presentation after that starts to carry that invisible weight. Those thoughts start to creep up.

4:05They second guess. Maybe it was that that I said, or maybe I should have said this. And then they start to soften their approach or not ask the right questions. And you know, he talked about was it the golfer that created the Yips that acronym. So I call it like the Yips in a suit, right? Because it's absolutely happening to sales people, sales conversations every single day. One thing that I noticed is that sales people don't, you know, ball players, they have statistics, football, they have statistics, baseball, they have golf. They have statistics and everything they do, they have coaches that are looking at them and saying to them, you use, you know, this is what you're doing wrong or they videotape it. Sales people, we don't spend enough time examining why we failed to find the mental blocks. We just go on to the next sale, the next phone call. And one of the things that I think is important is that we take the time to look at what we're doing and examine it as you're going to talk about that later in the chapter in the episode.

5:09But what is it that we're doing or not doing well anymore? And if we don't examine it, we'll never change it. Right. Yeah. You I do. I say I mentioned I'm going to talk about that later is watch, you know, listening to our calls, recording things, finding out instead of having that be painful. How can we learn from it? Yeah, absolutely. So, so let's get into Jim Murphy's book. I think the closest thing that I've experienced to watching this mental block happen is I teach public speaking. And the number one fear of people, Stephanie is public speaking. Number three is death. So as a sign filled once said, if you'd rather be in the coffin, than doing the eulogy, at least statistically, you're right. Now, we know we wouldn't rather be dead, but it is a big fear of people. And so I did something similar to the author and that was that I would ask people about their experiences in public speaking. And almost without exception, those that didn't like to public speak had failed at public speaking,

6:12either in high school or college, usually high school. That's where we take our first one. And I would examine those, Stephanie. And they would say things like, yeah, you know, I had to talk about something I didn't know anything about. I remember I had to do a speech on the gold standard, like I knew anything about the gold standard. Or, or all the kids made fun of me. Of course, that's what high school students do. So you've got the worst audience in the world. Or my teacher pointed out everything I did wrong. So all I could do is concentrate on the things I did wrong, which obviously, if all I'm thinking about is what I'm doing wrong, I can't do a good speech in front of people. So, so I know your public speaker. So what we started to do was videotape their presentations. And then in the review room, myself or my coach teacher would have to be very positive with them, showing them where they were doing things right and helping them to overcome this feeling, this negative videotape they had in their mind. And we were literally creating new videos for them that they could watch and say, you know what, I'm not bad at this. I can do this.

7:14So, so as you've worked with salespeople, be experienced, anything like that? We've had to help them change mentally. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And exactly what you're describing, you know, you figure that out. You created new evidence for them, right? And you gave them, they're subconscious, a better story. But this is something that I teach Bill in my eight week convert course. And people are already surprised by it. It's a eight week course, seven steps in the sales process. So why is it eight weeks? Week one is not about the sales process. It's about mindset and identity. We spend a full session just on mindset. Because if somebody walks into the second week, still believing deep down that they're not a salesperson or they think that sales is being pushy or they're going to get rejected. And they just keep fighting about that. There's no framework or course or program that's going to fix that. And one of the things actually that I also teach is visual visualization. And it sounds like that's what you're doing as well with these videos is what I teach is how people close their

8:15eyes before they're going into a sale. Just even a quick 15 seconds. And envision themself having this positive conversation, the client nodding their head, shaking, yes, signing the contract, asking when can we get started? Really just putting in that mindset and that frame of how you want that sales called to go. Imagine yourself winning that sale before you even pick up that phone and start the conversation. And that's that rewiring what you talked about in the videos is and they talk about the book as neuroplasticity. You probably just didn't call it back then. But that's what really what you're doing is rewiring the brain. I always like to give an example. If you think about how water runs down in a river, right, it just if the water keeps running, it can create a new path. If it runs over those rocks and it keeps going at consistency, you can create a new pathway in your brain, just like a river can create a new pathway as the water keeps running. So I like to use that example to about how to visualize you can create new ways in your brain to think differently.

9:19All right. So let's talk about Jim Murphy's process for removing mental blocks. He has a three-step process. It's going to sound simple, but you've got to do the work. And number one, you've got to take the emotion out of it. What he suggests, see yourself in the third person. Don't look at this from an emotional standpoint. I failed or I didn't do something wrong. Look at this from a third person and say, did this really go bad because I didn't do it right? Would it have gone bad no matter who did it? Was it really a mistake? Was it something I can fix or was it something I need to avoid? Right. One of the things we talk about baseball, be really great if I was a fastball hitter. If I could get the pitcher to only pitch fastballs. Right. So put yourself in the situations where you can succeed and build that confidence. But take the emotion out of it in order to see, is it really something that's fixable or not fixable? Yeah. So step two, finding the smallest change that would have made a difference.

10:20And that's what I thought that step is so important. It's connected to something we call framing. And you may have heard a lot about this in sales. Is when you control the frame, you control the focus and focus equals feeling. And so what I mean by that is stepping outside that painful memory and watching it like you're watching a movie. And that's what you said when in the beginning, when you talk with your students is what looking back at our performance, what did we do, what did we say? And oftentimes when you can remove yourself from it, then you can get more clarity. You look at not reviewing it as a loss deal, but where did I do well? How was where did I lead the conversation? What questions that I ask? And what was in my control? What happened? What didn't work well? So I think when you can see it from the outside looking at when the way you frame it can make all the difference in the world for you. Yeah, I think it's really important to be willing to make small changes. So often we look at our failures and we say, Oh, I have to do this big thing. I have to make this big change. And it's not about big changes. Usually it's about a small change. A little word I

11:24could have said differently a time when I could have kept my mouth shut and listened a little better to the client. Those are small changes I can make. Again, as you said, if we don't examine it though, we can't find those small changes and we just go blithely on to the next step or go back to do it again. And we keep, you know, I've had situations you probably have to. People have said, I always get this objection. And my question is, why aren't you changing your process so you don't get that objection anymore? Instead of figuring out an answer to that objection, you should be dealing with it in your presentation somewhere because you're always getting that objection. So you're maybe you're bringing up something that causes that objection to happen. So look at what you're doing to see what you can do just a little bit better, not a giant leap a little bit better. Yeah, use it as data, right? That's what, like you said, where was it? Use it as your data. How many times do I say this word or ask this question and get that response? Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, let's go on to this final step, step three, insert a positive high energy feeling as well as the small change

12:27into the context of the mental block. And this is what you were talking about a little bit earlier. I have to see myself beyond the failure and put myself into a positive situation where I can feel the excitement about closing that deal. I can feel the excitement about them signing on the bottom line. I need to move this from a negative emotion. I failed to a positive emotion. I'm good at this and I know how to succeed. Right. That's where I see. Yeah, the visualization comes into practice every time and envision yourself. What's it go, what question that I asked and they were saying, yes, at what point did I make that connection? And when you can continue, right, rehearsing those positive feelings, Tony Robbins always talks about change your state. And if you've ever watched the Tony Robbins and listen to him, he talks about that all the time, what is the state that you're in when you're making that call when you're going to people and when you can show up powerfully before those conversations and have those little, you know, like you said, those little come a positive yet, right? And you're buying, playing over and over again, that is going to make such a difference

13:33for you and really give you that more confidence to keep going after it. Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, I hope this helps any of you get out of those yips in a business suit as Stephanie called it, or what other mental blocks. Let me just repeat those three steps again. Maybe you can find a way to use them. Take the emotion out of it. See yourself in the third person. Find the smallest change that would have made a different and exerted into this situation in sort of positive high energy feeling as well as the small change into the context of the mental block. Play that positive video when you need it the most. So that is chapter nine of Inter excellence next week, chapter 10, the hero and the goat. So our next topic is the identity problem. Why talented people underperform in sales? This is your topic, Stephanie. So let me take it away. All right, ask some bells. So here's the thing that really kind of drives me crazy about talented sales people is they are so many gifted people out there and they're completely underperforming and it's not because of lack of

14:34skill or because their product is wrong or because the market is bad, but it's how they see themselves when they're picking up the phone or walking into that meeting. So the first thing I talk about is identity is the thermostat and Murphy says that in this chapter, the beliefs are the thermostat of your life and they set the ceiling out to what you can accomplish. So really saying that I believe, you know, not just, okay, I can do this. I'm good. It's I am somebody that closes deals. I am somebody that is great at sales making that identity shift and actually saying that you are that kind of a person, not just this is what I do, but I am that kind of person. And when you have it, what happens is your identity gets misaligned with those with your subconscious mind and your feelings and deep down, that's why they start to feel like I can't do this. And then they start to pull back the words that they use, maybe their energy going into that call and they and then that's when they

15:36start to get nervous and they over explain and they throw in a discount and all of those things because they're not confident in that they're actually can close this deal because of something that's going through their mind. So they become they become a victim instead of a victor, don't they? And they're starting to say, yeah, all these things are happening around me. I like the metaphor of a thermostat. I use that in comparison to a thermometer. I'm sure I stole it from somewhere many years ago. I don't remember anymore, but are you a thermometer that just reflects what's going on around you or are you a thermostat that controls what's going on around you? And you have to be that person that controls it as you say, I'm a closer. I know how to do this. I'm good at this and and convince yourself so you can go into those situations with confidence and set the tone, set that temperature for the client and not just be a victim. Right. And that's yeah, same thing, your client is wondering, are they the person that does this kind of thing? Am I a person that invests in sales training or can do this new product? So it's also shifting that identity and belief

16:39to your client. So this is why I talk about Bill in my course. Why week one of my eight week course is mindset. Because people, and again, people always ask me, what's the A step? And it is about the process, but it's more importantly about the person. And so if we skip that week, I tell people, if you if you can't make week one, I don't know if this is going to work for you, right? Because what I talk about is giving them a GPS, it's like giving them a map to somebody who doesn't know where the destination is, right? They can have all the tools, all the things, but if they don't know how to lead the client, if they don't believe in their mind, that they're a leader and they can guide their client, that's where they're going to have that misalignment. So I asked them, ask of where are you sabotaging yourself? What is, you know, tell me about what a sales feel like to you. That's one of the first questions I always ask is when somebody calls me about a consultation, how does sales feel to you? Give me a couple of words to describe it. And I'm sure you've probably heard them too, right? I don't want to feel pushy. I don't want to feel salzy. I don't

17:43want to feel awkward. And that's the, that's the mindset that they have going on in their head is that that that's what sales feels like. So that's why starting out with a mindset is so important before any sales call, anytime you pick up the phone or go on any conversation. Would you agree with that? I think so much in the past, people have ended up in sales, but not planned on being in sales. We've worked with a number of professors at local colleges, colleges in Minnesota that are starting to design sales, sales programs at the college level for people who want to go into that field and want to prepare for it. And I think over time, we'll start to get rid of some of these misconceptions that you talk about. I have to be pushy. I have to be salzy. I have to wear a checkered jacket and gold chains. You know, that's not what sales is. There may be people still that do that and try to push people into something, but they're not going to be long-term successful because they're not building a relationship with that person. That's what Jimmy Zee's talks about

18:46so well in all of the episodes that he's done, but especially last week, we talked about the decision collision and talking about how important it is to be on the side of the customer and be giving them good advice. That's really what we're trying to do. Not push them into what we want them to have, but to guide them into something that's going to be a great solution for them. And we know we're going to have the backup to make that great solution work for them. So I think if we live with those misconceptions, we're going to die with those misconceptions. Yeah. And it's what I mentioned earlier too. It's reframing that changes everything. And that's why I love this, you know, what I created, what I, in my convert process is the GPS. And that's what I tell my client is you're not selling, you're guiding. What is the first thing the GPS asks you? Where are you? Where am I going to pick you up at? Where are we starting from? Right? Really? Under Ask Your Client, where are they starting from? And how can you guide them to where they want to go? And if they can see themselves as that guide, being able to lead their client to a decision, not forcing something on them, but as a

19:52leader and as a guide, so much of that shifts how they show up in those calls when they start to see themselves as somebody who guides them. And then the follow up, it's not chasing, right? You're just staying in the process. Maybe in the GPS, what happens if you make a wrong turn? What does the GPS tell you to do? Re-route, reroute. That's what follow up is. If your customer falls off or the customer, you know, the objections start coming, you've got to be able to reroute them back. And so when you can see yourself as a leader, you're not being pushed, you're chasing or forcing something on them. You're just guiding them back on the road to where you want to the decision that you want them to lead. And there's a lot of it. There's a lot of it, people's making these preconceived notions about their customer. Oh, she must not be interested because she didn't answer my phone call. And now I let everything drop off because I don't want to, I don't want to annoy them or whatever. And so we just you know, as a third person, this is why I think coaches like you are so important Stephanie,

20:54because we tell people, no, it's okay to make one more phone call. It's okay to send them an email. It's okay to reach out to them. And sometimes when we're in it, just like the golfer or the ball player with the yips, when we're in it, we just can't see it for ourselves. We need that person outside as to say, look, I can see what you're doing and you need to shift a little bit. As you said, you need to make this identity shift and and cause yourself to see yourself in a different way. Quit seeing yourself as somebody who can't make the sale. Quit seeing the customer somebody who's not interested. If you don't believe in your product, what are you doing? Yeah. Well, and that's one of the things I talk about is, too, it's called identity selling is what I just, you know, helping your prospects see the gap from who they are right now to who they want to become. When people call me, you know, that's why I say, how does sales feel to you when you have to make that call and you go to these events, how do you feel? Oh, I feel awkward. I feel weird. Okay. What

21:56makes you feel awkward and weird? Why do you think that? What's going on in your brain that makes you think that who are you selling? What is your identity? And then how are you portraying your client? Does your client believe that they are someone that can get value from your product? Like, do I, when I talk to my clients, do they truly believe that they can get better at sales? Do they believe they can get over those awkward pushy feelings? If yes, then that's how I can guide them to a decision. But it all goes back to all this stuff, the subconscious, the identity. And who do we think we are? And who do we believe that we can become? Where are we now? And where do we want to go? And if we have that belief that we can do that and we are that type of person, are successful in sales? We are competent in our product and our program. That's where all the success starts. Yeah, that's great, Stephanie. So, so take advice from Stephanie, change the way you're thinking about yourself. Jim Murphy talks about using affirmations and using

22:56mantras as a way to help you overcome some of these things. And I think those are good ideas. I whenever I do them, I feel stupid. But if I stick to them, then I will draw me toward that new identity. And as Stephanie said, that identity is everything. So you can get contact with Stephanie or I through the resources on the show page on each of the individual platforms. I put it on there. And Stephanie, once you wrap up today with a golden nugget, it comes from Henry Ford. Now Henry Ford, I guess you could say it was in sales or not, but his quote, whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right. And sag that identity is a thought. It's not a thought. Identity is a decision. It's deciding who you are before you make that call. Decide that you're the guide, you're the leader in the conversation, you're the expert. And believe that your offer will change their life. Because if you have that belief, the person who sits across from you

23:59can also believe that as well. And if you don't ask them for the business, you're just being selfish. If you truly believe your product can help them by not offering it to them and sharing that with them, you're doing them a disservice. All right. You can find the Convert Guide on our show page, sales strategy network.com slash convert. And so you can find that information and that link will be there. You can link in with Stephanie or I. That information will be there as well. We'd love to have you link in with us for all the information. Go to winning at selling.com. I'm still having issues. I apologize. I can't get hold of the URL because Scott had it and and that the family hasn't been able to get it turned over yet. So I apologize for that. We're all ready to to launch the the new show page, but we can't get it done. Anyway, all the information will be in the show notes. Look for it there. This is episode 715. Next week episode 716 is with co-host Brian Moss and his topic is

25:00why prospects ghost you? Interest isn't commitment. In the book club, inter excellence by Jim Murphy. You get chapter 10, the hero and the goat. So please subscribe and share the podcast with your colleagues and on your social media. We'd be grateful if you gave us a five star review. Go out and get better one skill at a time. Joyful selling.